The reason why I like Joel is because he is a terrible person. He just feels real. He's not your generic good guy character. Just a guy forced to do horrible things to stay alive in the apocalypse
@@victorreznov6320 I don't think we played the same game Joel was a badass saw to much of his daughter in ellie and couldn't let her die but whatever like i said you're gonna have to call every survivor in the apocalypse terrible just because they have to get their hands dirty abit you pussy
@@legionman2441 look at the way he interrogates people lol when it’s for Ellie we understand but you do realise he’d do that to others who never did anything to him? And yeah no shit the apocalypse makes people shitty guess what tard just cause it’s the apocalypse don’t make it shitty.
Yes it does. When you talk about If something is bad it is always realtive to something else. If Joel was an bad before shit hit the fan, than yes he is a bad person. But once shit has hit the fan and everyone else morals has gotten worse than no he would be considered just normal their for Joel is no longer a bad person.
Reminds me of in Logan where Charles tells Logan off for swearing infront of Laura "So she can't gut a man with her feet but she can't hear a few naughty words" 😂
Rick Grimes is a better example imo. We see Joel 20 years into the apocalypse but you actually see Rick's defining moments that make him the ruthless killer that he becomes.
@@clackkokicks7731 i wouldn't even say that. I actually think Joel is more ruthless..for example the interrogation scene or the fact you can blow enemies to bits depending on how you play. Im just saying you actually get to see the transformation of Rick, compared to Joel where we just see the end result of what that world can do to a man who's lost everything after 20 years. I think Rick is more interesting for the simple fact he has multiple character development arcs and actually struggles with completely being a savage up until the end of season 4 where he just accepts thats who he is when he needs to be and no longer feeling remorse or guilt about it.
@@recklessnotion1899 i think its a bit different from rick, cause joel is just a civilian meanwhile rick was police officers (pre apocalypse). And also rick is trying to make the world better because he knows this isn't the right world they use to live in, meanwhile joel is a survivor that follow what the end of the world rules do
I think it’s somewhat silly to describe a character as “a terrible person” in a universe like the last of us. You would be extremely hard pressed to find any person still alive in tlou universe that we wouldn’t define as a terrible person. He’s likely gone further than many others, but still he hasn’t completely lost himself, evident in his connection with Eliie. And while Joel may have made a selfish decision, you can’t definitively say it was wrong.
Exactly. He’s a terrible person by our standards, living in our world. But he doesn’t live in that world. You can’t live in that world and be a “good person”.
And honestly, I just really can't get behind the idea that he's "terrible". Sure, he's terrible to people he barely knows but a lot of people with trust issues are already like that in OUR world where there are no risks of getting infected by a mushroom virus that takes over your whole body. And people seem to forget the fact that he lost his daughter due to him trusting that a stranger would help them in their dire situation.
Yeah relatively speaking, Joel is a decent guy. Not terrible, not a saint, but he is descent. He was friendly to Henry even after being left for dead, did his best to hold up his promise to Tess, and tried to comfort Bill after he found his partner dead. He's obviously done some fucked up and selfish shit, but nothing that surpasses the antagonists in TLOU.
for me Joel is the perfect example of an anti hero. a villain would have killed ellie to doom the world, a hero would have sacrificed the girl to save the world. the anti hero said fuck you to the world and protected the only thing that was left for him to care for. the world took everything from him, so he took everything from the world.
His alignment is chaotic neutral to chaotic good. By the end of the game, he does try to do the right thing when he can but he will do what's necessary to protect his family.
@@christhefiend The alternative is that she isn't there to be sick or injured, she isn't there at all. Also, just a question, how do you think other settlements survived?
The tape recording Ellie finds at the hospital wasn’t actually of Marlene, as she wouldn’t have had time to make it before dying. It was actually Mel, who was a student of Abby’s father
@@lyndseyring8704 nope, was Mel, you can really hear it when she says “it would make no difference” she says it rapidly and out of breath like Mel always does, like later when she tells Abby “Scars are tough”
@@uhuhuh1966 Ellie was humanity’s last chance & Joel wanted to doom it all for HIS OWN WORLD. HIS PERSONAL HAPPINESS. Okay. If anything happened to Ellie outside of Joel’s control, she tripped & died or anything, that would’ve been it. All these pyramids, & schools, people, & futures, gone. Cuz Joel wanted another daughter. Even though he’d probably die soon anyway, he wac getting up & age & didn’t live the healthiest lifestyle so, I’m just saying. Joel was a true selfish piece of shit for that in my opinion man. 🤷🏾♂️ I love him but I never kiss ass, unless it’s a beautiful woman’s & I mean that literally. 🤣
I like to think that Joel did feel guilty towards his actions at the hospital. Doesn't mean he would go back and change things but I'm sure the guilt of dooming the rest of humanity is still there. During the segment where Ellie is exploring his house after he died, she goes into the bathroom that's connected to his room. Inside, the mirror seems to have been removed. It's been theorized that Joel removed it himself due to not being able to look at himself in the mirror after what he did. This is all just speculation of course but I just thought I'd bring it up. Really enjoyed the video.
@@thethriftytypewriter Joel realizes the weight of his decision. The moment he enters the elevator with Ellie, he looks up as if he's looking up towards God and mutters, "oh, God..." Also, in an episode of Play, Watch, Listen (video games + variety podcast) (th-cam.com/video/J_erTqnYOxc/w-d-xo.html, 1:05:46 to 1:14:56) Troy Baker said that even though Joel would do it all over again... He DOES realize that he's done something pretty fucked up (hospital decision and the lie to Ellie). It's why he dedicates himself to the community of Jackson: helping other patrolling folks, actively going out on patrols himself, keeping Jackson safe, helping the strangers he finds outside (something that folks in Jackson did), preparing the next generation of patrolling folks (he trained Jesse and both of them had respect for each other). Joel was an important part of the community there. He also worked as a luthier. He had experience as a carpenter. I'm sure that he helped with construction projects in the town. He was a valued member of that town (one only needs to look at all the flowers outside his house), and becoming an asset to the community was Joel's way of doing penance for his transgressions.
Joel actually gave the mirror that is missing to Ellie. It’s in her little garage house. That being said he definitely feels guilty about what he did. He’s terrified that Tommy will hate him when he tells him what happened in the beginning of part two. That’s why he gets choked up and he’s unable to speak for several moments after Tommy tells him that he understands him. (Also small thing but I love how when we’re controlling Joel, we don’t get to see his moments of emotional vulnerability with the camera there and when he’s given the picture of Sarah, because he wouldn’t want us to see it) But the mirror thing is Joel just being a nice dad who wanted his surrogate daughter to have everything she wanted/needed. There are two mirrors up in the en suite bathroom that has all his grooming products on the counter like hairbrush, toothbrush etc.
One of my favorite lines in the whole game is the part where Ellie asks Joel how he knew about the “injured” man being an ambush and he replies with “I’ve been on both sides.” That one line gives us so much about his character. The things he has done to survive must’ve been so brutal, and that makes him such an intriguing character. I really want to know everything he did during that time jump from the opening.
just like what troy said, joel saw ellie as his daughter by the time while taking her to the fireflies, he said "joel did save the world because the world is that girl"
joel is a good father, it reminds me of "the quiet place" because the parents in the first season (2nd too) are actually a real life married couple who created a whole movie talking about how much they will sacrifice to save their own children, i think its a perfect example of how much ellie means to joel + English is not my first language, sorry
@@donovanumbra9704 remember they had other kids they brought before and they still didn’t find a cure they could have ended up killing ellie and been no closer to a cure. I think joel did the right thing
I’m glad someone else brought up Tess’ last wish. For him to deliver her to the fireflies. “You must feel some kind of obligation to me.” I’ve thought of that too but no one else seemed to bring it up, like, ever which is so weird bc it’s one of her last words to Joel and last words ever. But I see how having a daughter might change that by the end. And I think that if Tess were to survive, she would also be a parental figure for Ellie also. I could tell before she died
Tess didn't know they were going to kill her for some idea that Ellie might be the key to a vaccine. And when you look into this further from real scientists, they tell you all they would need is a blood sample, not to open up her skull and hope for the best. The fireflies where useless and Joel knew this. He made the right choice and I would argue Tess would of changed her mind too
I love Joel so much because despite how he was a horrible person, he feels very real, relatable and he is the perfect example of how most people would turn out to be if they were to fully adapt to the apocalypse in order to survive. Nobody in this series is 100% pure. Not even Ellie, Tommy, or Abby!
@@elishawilson5342 that’s unfortunately how the Internet is. Quite a few characters that did very bad things have a lot of apologists. Joel is just one example. I was honestly surprised to hear people defend the horrible actions of Snape from Harry Potter, not to mention Cersei from GoT.
why is he a horrible person? One action that makes him a bad guy. He is in the fucking apocaliptic world and fights for survival every day, yes ofc he had to kill many people, quite brutally too, but i havent seen one inhumane thing i wouldnt have done in his situation.
Joel did terrible things but he still remains relatable and most importantly, human. I would not describe him as bloodthirsty as I do not see any hint of joy when he is fighting. But without a doubt, he's a hardened killer. You'd have to be to survive in such a world. Most importantly, any argument that Joel should have surrendered Ellie to the Fireflies overlooks the existence of one crucial character in TLOU: Sarah. If we gloss over Sarah's story and the profound effect she had on Joel, it'd be easy to dismiss Joel's decision at the hospital as sheer selfishness. But the entire game follows Joel's inner struggle against bonding with Ellie but forming a surrogate parent relationship nonetheless. Tell me, what kind of insane, demented, inhuman kind of father, would give his own daughter up to die? No father at all. In the same shoes, I'd do the same. As a father, nothing less is expected for your child.
It is implied that Joel at one point was a hunter, just like the guys who tried killing him and Ellie in the city as they made their way to the fireflies. Ellie asks him if he killed people and him not answering. That and Tommy saying he had "Nightmares about those times" when Joel was saying he kept them alive. So it can be taken that Joel was brutal earlier on in the apocalypse, or in other words "bloodthirsty".
@@kostadim7892 Implied. Not stated. Not shown. Maybe he killed hundreds of "innocent people," maybe NONE. All he admits to is being on both sides of an ambush. Tommy's statement about "nightmares" could not be more vague. It would have been a nightmare without Joel, too. That is all we have on the record. Everything else is speculation.
Very well said. I just played through part 1 on ps5 and I absolutely loved it. Describing Joel as a terrible person is kind of obsurd, given the circumstances. All he was was a hard working, loving father from the very beginning. Only after the whole zombie apocalypse did he have to kill to survive. I love Joel as a character. I probably will not purchase part 2 though, because I've seen too much about what happens and I really don't like it.
exactly, we know joel and how he is, i don’t think he’s a terrible person, but he’s done terrible things, but its the apocalypse. it’s different than our world. what we must focus on is our time with him, we come to know him, just like all the other characters in the game
I just like how real Joel is. He’s flawed and he’s selfish to an extent. Ellie mentioned about a dream where she was in a crashing plane full of people. The absent pilot is a metaphor for the missing cure. Ellie wants to save mankind, but obviously "she didn't know how to fly a plane". That can also be a metaphor that the Fireflies will not be able to synthesize a cure despite Ellie's sacrifice. Thus, crashing the plane with no certainty if there would be any survivors. That is some heavy foreshadowing. Personally, this is what heavily drove me (or in this case, Joel) into saving Ellie. This game never has coincidences. Extracting Ellie's brain would've been in vain. Besides it’s not like all the cannibals and hunter’s would stop just because there would be a cure. Is the moral choice of the world to sacrifice one life for the sake of many? Yes. But remember this is an unforgiving world where morals have been more or less thrown out the window. Joel is likable because I think a lot of us would make that same decision he did were we in his shoes.
@@jimmycevallos4468It was on orders from the military. The military clearly had orders to kill survivors on sight. A bunch of Joel’s were probably created that same day because of direct orders from the government. Along with the government creating martial law and oppressing civilians why would Joel or anyone like him not have a grudge against the military and therefore the government and any paramilitary groups claiming to be a higher force
i think its less about the theoretical nature of it and more based on the principle, but context is also important. you can't just say "it would've been in vain" like its a concrete fact because we will simply never know. we see it as joel does because we are him throughout the game, and we experience what he experiences, through his eyes and POV. some might say that the risk was a necessary one, like ellie herself, as she feels the guilt of not being able to do something impactful with her immunity. but the game left many agreeing with what joel did. which is an interesting conversation in itself, morals and all. i dont think joel is a terrible person personally, based on what we've actually seen him do. he was a broken man that was trying to be whole again, and in that process he made an extremely selfish decision. i don't think that makes him a terrible person, it makes him human. that's why we all love joel so much, he is incredibly relatable. compared to the hunters and other enemies we see throughout the game id consider those to be much more terrible than joel ever was.
Every time I watch the ending encounter at the hospital in part 1 I think all of this could have very possibly been solved it they let Joel talk to Ellie and didn’t treat him so damn hostile . I know they needed an ending level for the game but the firefly’s had no reason to be so hostile to Joel from the jump .
The problem is the fact that the Fireflies took any agency a little girl has in an operation like that in the first place. If they had actually let Joel talk to Ellie, that would’ve meant that the FF actually cared enough about Ellie to talk to her. I also think Marlene knows Joel well enough to know when he’s about to try something.
@@REChronic54 The fireflies had already talked to Elli. Joel wasn't her father, he was a carrier (they are not aware of how things have changed). It was Elli who wanted this. Joel is basically a Fedex that starts shooting at you rigth after you signed your package.
@@limonsoda I think Ellie sensed that she was gonna be a test subject but she was never explicitly told she’d die from an operation. She would’ve still given her life if she knew but the fact that FF/Marlene chose to not tell her leads me to believe that they’re scared of her opposing, which means they don’t actually care about what she says. I just think the FF and Joel both contribute to the disaster.
@@limonsoda correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe we ever hear from anyone that the fireflies talked to Ellie. We don’t hear otherwise either right?
Exactly. The Fireflies messed up royally. Just talk to Joel and Ellie together and let her make the decision. She would have said yes and Joel would have most likely respected her decision even if it killed him inside. But no. They just kidnapped her unconscious body and were going to leave Joel to die without any supplies or weapons. They seriously thought that was a good idea to do with someone like Joel? They’re idiots and hypocrites. That’s all they are. Hell, even if Ellie said “No I don’t want to do the surgery” they probably would have just knocked her out again and shot Joel in the head. They’re power hungry terrorists with a god complex. I don’t feel bad for them whatsoever. Joel made the right choice.
I don't feel like Joel is a bad guy for saving Ellie, and honestly think the fireflies were. They were about to kill an unconcious child without her consent and would probably be unable to make a vaccine, as told through notes in the first game.
Fr if you actually go into the nuances Joel’s decision wasn’t THAT despicable if you just take into consideration how incompetent the fireflies were as a group I mean cmon hiring some random smugglers to deliver the cure for mankind across the post apocalypse country doesn’t seem very professional plus even if they somehow created a vaccine would they even be able to distribute it? Would it even matter this far into the apocalypse?
@@tamd5670 Except the in-level notes imply that the chance for a cure was ever slim, so since it's a game and the writers say the chance of it working was slim, it MAY have worked but LIKELY wouldn't have. There's also no hint of knowledge in the first game that Ellie knew she would die to produce the cure; TLOU2 is a major retcon in that department which it uses to justify Ellie's hatred and split from Joel.
@@tamd5670 The second game was written by Neil Druckmann who got a woman fired and had all her work scrapped on Uncharted 4 because he thought his ideas were better. The woman was critically acclaimed and audience favorite writer/designer/director Amy Hennig. His original idea for the TLOU1 was that the fungus only affected and killed women. His first original story that he wrote and got published, A Second Chance at Sarah, can best be summed up as "A woman I'm not romantically interested in needs to die so I can fulfill my love quest." Seems the more believable reason for why Ellie saying she needs to die was because Neil may have some issues with women.
@@tamd5670 Consent doesnt work like how you think it does. You HAVE to give consent. Otherwise you are a rapist who says "she wanted it". Thats not a good look. Similarly, never did Ellie actually give consent to be killed for a CHANCE for the cure. And since its a game, the cure might not have worked. It goes both ways.
I never understood the whole, "Joel did nothing wrong" idea. He's a tragic, terrible, and ultimately selfish person. But that's what makes me love him as a character, because he is so flawed and complex. You can also see/understand why he makes certain decisions, but doesn't mean they are right or he did nothing wrong. He did possibly condemn the human race to the apocalypse (as there was no assurance the vaccine could work), but still an amazing character
because anyone who was actually into tlou and read the noted and audio logs and payed attention can see it was not going to work 1 audiolog from the fireflies says its very slim 1 note mentions how in 1 year 60 percent of people were dead 2 the state of the hospital 3 the doctor being a vet
@@massy9437 Even Joel says, "They were actually going to make a cure" in the opening of the Last of Us 2. He doesn't say, "It wasn't going to work so I had to get her out of there." He believed and knew it would work. But he chose to do what he did anyways. Even Joel knows the stakes of what he did.
@@Tcab96 1: I am far more willing to accept material from the original game than I am willing to accept material from the sequel, given how disrespectful and contradicting of the original game the sequel is. It’s pretty clear to anyone with a lick of intelligence in writing can see that the writing in TLOU 2 is agenda driven and takes liberties to established lore instead of a natural evolution of what was originally set up. 2: Even if the reverse engineered vaccine was 100% going to work, which it wasn’t, that doesn’t solve how morally bankrupt the whole of humanity is. Making David immune from turning wouldn’t have stopped him and his group from being cannibalistic rapist murderers. What is there to save? Nothing. The world has been over since 2013. I wouldn’t expect people to endorse Joel’s decision, but if you don’t understand it, then don’t bother.
@@treymagathan847 1. The material from the sequel is made by the same guy who made the first game you're conveniently willing to accept and dick ride. The topic of whether or not the cure would or would not have worked has absolutely nothing to do with any "agendas" and you can't demonstrate it does in any capacity. It's a complete non-sequitur. If you don't like the sequel, that's fine, but don't give this bullshit excuse about "agendas" because your video game daddy died. 2. It would have worked. Stay mad. You're demonstrating you don't know what you're talking about not only when it comes to the game but also humanity. The reason humanity was so fucked was because it was dealing with a global and overwhelming threat that was the cordyceps. Did you think humanity was all hunky-dory and singing Kumbaya prior to the 21st Century? Humanity's history is bloody and fucked up. Absolutely nothing humans did in the Last of Us is at all any different than humanity's first ascent into the 21st century. And yet, nonetheless, humans managed to have prosperous civilizations that resulted in the most peaceful time in all of human history. Not to mention, not all humans were monsters in the Last of Us. Settlements like Jackson seemed perfectly fine and on the up and up. Demonstrating that humanity can be perfectly fine and come back. At least with a cure, there was a hope and a chance things could be righted in a better direction faster. I don't know why you bothered to comment if you didn't even understand the subject matter to begin with.
@@Tcab96 This was their retcon. In part 1 the notes told us the vaccine wasn't a sure thing, but in Part 2 that was all forgotten and they acted like it was a sure thing.
I just love how Joel isn’t just some power fantasy blank slate for the players to project themselves on. He feels like a real guy with real flaws who the player just so happens to control during gameplay. Naughty Dog wasn’t afraid to have situations where Joel can piss players off with his actions like being mean to Ellie after she saved his life or forcing Tommy to take her off his hands. But at the same time, you totally get why he is the way he is because of that prologue with his daughter. That’s always in the back of your mind when you play the game. He feels like such a real person.
Joel isn’t a “terrible” person,He just only thinks about himself and his peers especially ellie,human civilisation had already fallen and had already collapsed so his actions are justified because he loved Ellie and the world was to far gone to be saved
He did stuff so bad his own brother left him still getting nightmares of the years they spent together, he must've done some pretty bad stuff then. We know he used to be a hunter and we've seen what those people do in the first game so we know that Joel killed people just to take their food and clothes because that's what hunters do and you can't really say that was justified because there are other means of getting clothes and food that doesn't involve people being killed over it. I think it's safe to say that Joel was a terrible person, maybe he redeemed himself but he did some awful things.
Absolutely not justified. You may agree with his reasoning just fine, but he was A) not doing the job he was asked to do, B) Taking a dump on top of Ellie's choices and Tess' wishes, C) Actively not allowing humanity to have a chance at reversing the Apocalypse. Yes, humanity has fallen, but is not extiguished, and the very fact that he only thinks on himself, shows how selfishness is his only motivation. The idea that everything is "too far gone" is just a weak justification (never stated in the game) to not allow yourself that just love a peace of shit human being, and trying to turn him into some kind of hero in your mind. I Love this character, but i knew if it was ever gonna be a sequel, he had to pay. Saw that miles away.
That's literally why he is terrible though lmao...you can't just say "well I loved them" to justify dooming humanity and brutally murdering people. The fact that so many people in the comments are liking this and saying similar things is wild
It's not justified. You can't just say that humanity has already fallen like that exonerates Joel's decision. He made a choice, a selfish one that not only doomed the possibility for humanity to make a cure (whether this saved humanity or not it's not the point, the point is that it wasn't his choice to make) and didn't care about Ellie's wishes nor intentions, not to mention Tess's. I love this dichotomy and decision, and it does make it a great character because of his choices, but to say he isn't terrible, is just you fooling yourself and justifying the not justifiable.
@@limonsoda there’s actually journals and notes in the game that you can find that proves that the fire flies didn’t know what the fuck they were doing like they didn’t know how to reverse engineer a vaccine so regardless of killing the choice Joel made There is no way humanity would have been saved even with a small window that could’ve been given thanks to Eli’s sacrifice and let’s not forget the fire flies didn’t give her a choice
Joel is a SURVIVALIST. He isn't terrible, he knows it's a harsh world that needs a harsh but strong resolve. He isn't terrible, he is realistic in the world that the Last of Us is set in.
IMO leaving Ellie to the firefly’s is way more terrible then saving an innocent child from being murdered no matter if you thought Ellie would be ok with it, she should still have the right to consent
And if the firefly’s were so sure that Ellie would say yes why didn’t they ask her? Because they didn’t want to risk her saying no. But somehow Joel is in the wrong
what scares me about joel is how anyone can turn into him. if you push someone to the point where they have to survive whilst dealing with losing the only thing they cared about…. you can create evil. I hate how I described joel as evil… tbh he was just a conflicted man who made a selfish decision that honestly anyone can understand.
Joel is a horrible person, but he’s not a bad guy. He loves his two daughters and he never stopped loving them. It’s like my favorite quote, “A hero would sacrifice you to save the world, but a villain would destroy the world if he ever saw you hurt.”
It’s honestly what makes me like part 2 so much. We love both of these characters and want what’s best for them, but it can’t happen, and Ellie never got to say goodbye to him so it makes it all the more tragic. I don’t wanna get too in depth I’ll save it for the Ellie video 😂
@@thethriftytypewriter I would of liked if the had them on good terms again and THEN kill joel, which i think would of made his death more devastating and impactful.
Being a “hunter” was the only way to survive at that time. Despite what we want to believe about ourselves given the right circumstances we all would do unspeakable things to survive.
@@Veachie no he didn’t. He had no resources and had to acquire them some how. Imagine you living in an apocalypse with nothing. You’d soon turn to killing to survive. We all would.
He is actively a predator. He is not just a survivor. Tess was a survivor, and still kept way more of her soul than Joel. Even in the start of the game he was willing to let other children die, if that gave him a heads up (and he didn't knew anything about zombies or anything at that point). He is a selfish ass. I like him, but i would never trust the man.
@@limonsoda how do you know that? We're not really given all that much on tess' past and she's as stone cold as Joel so i personally beg to differ. She also admits that they're both terrible people in her final moments so that's her own honest opinion.
I just finished The Last of Us for the first time, and I think what I appreciated about his character was that he is very clearly not a "good" character, but he is a great one. And the creators never tried to shy away or change that about him. He's a bad dude who does a lot of bad stuff. But he is loyal to a fault and when he loves people he truly loves them. I think it was excellent characterisation by the creators and they clearly spent a lot of time on him
He’s still a terrible person, I would kill the whole world for my family, I’m doing it bc I love my family but that doesn’t mean what I’m doing isn’t selfish
I feel that Joel was 100% at peace with his death. Obviously it was painful but the fact that Ellie told him she wanted to make things work the night before was all he needed to be at peace. Plus he got one last glimpse of his baby girl before he went. Joel regretted nothing and was ready in that moment to leave this world. His morals were indeed skewed but it’s all a matter of perspective and circumstance. Just like Tommy said, I personally can’t say I would’ve done differently for those I love and that’s what so beautiful about the story so far of the Last of us.
Thing is as far as he knew at that moment, Ellie and Tommy was next. And it was because of his actions and negligence. From what I see that last look would be from someone who thought that they failed to protect what they loved. If not brought harm unto them.
The old Joe , the nice guy, he died the moment his daughter got killed that night in such a terrible way. what we see is how a nice guy become human without goals , like a animal without human feelings, but still keeps going until he experience what means be alive , again, thanks to Ellie.
This is just me but I didn’t care for her and her friends story until I played the game a second time. Owen is such a tragic character. God damn, I loved this game.
@@EJD339 I feel like Abbie raped Owen lol. like, obviously she didn't but the scene where they did the deed was a lot lol. I don't think he could have stopped her
@@EJD339 I’m on my second play through, after beating it upon release. Definitely made me realize how tragic Owens story is. I’m still indifferent about Abby. She lost her dad, sure. But everything else is out the window. Recordings you find in the first and second game show that her dad wasn’t even sure the surgery with Ellie would provide a cure. Coupled with the fact that, in real life, it’s impossible to cure a fungus infection of the brain (although I understand it’s a fiction story). From what you gather, her dad was an egotistical maniac who thought he could save the world by sacrificing a child. So Joel didn’t cheat the world of a certain cure, he just denied it’s possibility. To save the child he, in his mind, redeemed himself with. Abby can kick rocks in my opinion.
I wish I liked her more. She's so close to being a good character, but damn do they waste her. I hope they fix her in a sequel. Her biggest sin is she's boring more than anything.
Joel isnt a bad person. We would put ourselves over the rest of the world too. Joel is smart and calculated. He risked his life (100's lf times) for this random young girl. He builds a relationship with her then takes her in and treats her as if she was his blood.
He is the asshole who tries to kill you for your supplies, and don't give a shit. If you were the protagonist of the game, Joel would be a boss you have to kill.
@@limonsoda If everyone's terrible, then who is truly terrible? Out of all the bad things Joel did, so many people have done way worse. ABBY being one, thats why it dosent work. Naughty Dog telling us "Joel bad" while playing with a character that is and has donde much worse. Truly a "lol" moment.
@@limonsoda Not really, if Joel encountered someone with supplies he'd rob them but he wouldn't kill them. I mean he could have just killed Bill after he gave them a car.
Joel's fate broke my heart, but at the same time I would've been disappointed if it didn't happen. He instigated so much evil and brutality in the name of survival that it only made sense for it to all come back to him.
Joel is something more than the words used to define him here. The rules of this world are different. Things like "Terrible", "Cruel" and "Ruthless" that mean negative things in our regular world are positive traits in this one. He is a Survivor. A fighter. And above all else he is something we rarely see in games. He is RELATABLE. Because he's a father. 🌸
He wasn't a terrible person before the outbreak or at least I don't think he was. Always makes me wonder how much the need to survive can change a person. Being a good person in that world will probably get you killed. In our world he's considered terrible but in that world maybe he's normal.
While I agree that Joel is not a good man I would like to point out that the fireflies are as bad if not worse in my opinion. Joel and Ellie have voluntarily traveled for months so that that they can help and have grown close as time and shared trauma tend to encourage. When they get there the fireflies keep Ellie in an induced coma so that they can kill her for a chance at a cure, they never give her an option. Ellie would likely have agreed based on what we know of her character and she is the only one who would have had a chance in talking down her surrogate father. The denial of that choice turns the fireflies into unforgivable child murderers and to me justifies Joel's actions against them.
I get where you're coming from but I'm fairly sure they didn't realise that she had to die until after she was unconscious and that still didn't give Joel the right to just kill everybody and take away her choice to choose as well.
@@iliyas6531 there is literally nothing stopping them from waking her up after they find out to allow her the choice. As to the amount of killing, the only person tou have to kill outside of cutscenes is the surgeon who will not be deterred from killing this kid, so 3 total
@@MCChibby What if she says no? Then what? Both parties are scared of the consequences. Both parties are scared of the answer thats why joel lied to her multiple times and thats why they didnt wake up ellie. Its hypocrisy at it finest and thats why people love the game. Because its soo human we are biased by nature to our own side.
@@slickstar96 If she says no they just kill her anyway, they have already shown they were willing to murder her. Letting her choose gives the opportunity for a yes and would have shown the decision was still hard for them, a last plea for absolution for what they feel they have to do. I still love the series it just makes the fireflies and the surgeon in particular look more like mustache twirling villains and less like a desperate militia trying to save humanity
@@MCChibby i understand what you're saying but i feel that then they dont have leg to stand on if she says no e.g jerry has a daughter abby he wants to go through with it to "save humanity" so calls ellie the "host" to not feel bad about the situation but if it was his own daughter no chance which is why he says nothing, because he knows he wouldnt be able to do himself once again, hypocrisy but soo human they wanted to believed and so stopped at nothing to believe anything that got in their way they dismiss it to further their cause as seen with the jerry and marlene scene The whole p2 is the ending scene of p1 tenfold thats why people enjoy p2 no one is good no is bad they all are humans making decisions for their own cause.
I think the fact that Joel is such a crappy person makes him one of the most relatable characters i've ever played. He isn't a god like Kratos or some mythic character who does the right thing all the time just because the story demands it. He is human and he gives in to his humanity the same way I think so many of us would, and he suffers the consequences like many of us would too.
Actually Joel’s choice was the right one because if you listen to the recordings of the doctor it says “ we don’t know why her immune system isn’t reacting to the zombie virus” but the actual fact is that Ellie is infected with the right kind of mushroom because cordesyps A is bad and cordespys B is good so she has a different kind of mushroom also it’s not like you can cure the already infected
i feel like terrible is a bit strong, he’s not a generic good guy, he’s flawed and real and he’s a hardened survivor. he’s probably the most realistic outcome of how a person changes to fit an apocalypse. in my mind, a terrible person or bad guy are the ones that torture, r*pe and killed in gangs, and whilst obviously it’s mentioned that Joel once ran with hunters, i doubt he was the worst of them and he definitely wouldn’t have r*ped anyone, and he stopped running with them for a reason. also i feel that most of the those terrible people in that world actually enjoy doing those awful things to survive and are sadistic, Joel does it cos he has to
*Part of Joel’s decision to save Ellie* wasn’t out of some “She deserves to live her life” ideology (Sure it was a huge factor of his decision making) but was mainly because *HE* couldn’t go back to living without a daughter figure - so he makes the decision to rob mankind of its last chance… because it robbed him of its daughter.
Ellie never actually said "I want to die so a cure can be made" If she did, youd have a point, but her life "meaning something" can have vastly different meanings depending on the person and context
I think tess would of completed the mission and handed her over, Joel's connection with Ellie is built upon his grief of losing his daughter (somthing as far as we are aware tess does not have experience with). Tess was happy to die in the hopes of a vaccine so I don't doubt she would of been fine with sacrificing Ellie once it came to it, that's what gives tess' death importance. Not only does Joel agree to do this mission as it was tess' last wish but the story would of been very different with her in it to the end
One thing I think they did wrong in the show was when Ellie shot a guy, and Joel told her that she was too young. Not that itself, that it very like the game, but they make killing people a sensitive topic for Joel, which isn't really in the game. In the game, he obviously doesn't like killing, but he doesn't really mind at all. Like when Tess shot Robert, neither of them batted an eyelash and just moved on joking about his dead body to Marlene.
The games do suggest that between 2013 and 2033 Joel did a lot of terrible things. Loss and experience, within a crumbling world, led him to dark places. Necessity was a factor as well when you consider the Cordyceps pandemic, and all the fun things associated therein. However, I don't think being shaped by your reality means you are a terrible person. Ellie gave him a reason, something to fight for, and Jackson gave him a place or chance for redemption. All signs indicate he was a respected member of the Jackson community. Absent assassination he could have lived for many more years and found further redemption. The idea that Joel is wrong or selfish or bad for saving Ellie is false. He is in the right. Ellie has a right to her opinion, but she's wrong, her life means something by living as long as possible. Dina, Cat, Jessie, everyone she interacts with in Jackson has had their lives improved by her presence and her life improved by their presence in hers. Karmically speaking, he deserved death for what he did from 2013-33, not for saving Ellie. Joel deserved to live for saving Ellie. I like Abby, but when your dad wants to kill a 14 year old girl he deserves what he gets.
I like Joel because he's a terrible man, he's not some savior just because he's main character. He's down to earth and does bad things in necessity. He was good guy before, but the way things have worked out he became bad. And I understand his action in Salt lake, later double downs saying he'd do that again. He even faces death like a badass
First, in the world of "The Last of Us," there are no good or bad people, only survivors. Joel did what he thought was necessary to save his daughter, who would have died needlessly. Second, fireflies are idiots, especially the doctor. instead of extracting the spinal fluid, which is full of fungal spores, and then growing the fungus to see what strain it is. I am 99% sure that it is a benign strain because there are over a million different strains, so it is possible that the benign strain evolved alongside the aggressive one and her immunity is the result of the benign fungus releasing chemicals that kill all other strains.
I disagree on calling Joel a "terrible person". Yeah he has done some brutal things, but it was to survive in a cruel and unforgiving world. He had to harden in a world that changed fast. But deep down Joel is still a good man. You didn't see him eating people or r*ping little girls like David and his people were implied to do in Part 1. There being actual true monsters out there that werent the infected. And honestly the cure wasnt a 100% guarantee. Plus even if the cure worked, the world was too far gone at that point. To you really think groups were all come a unanimous agreement to rebuild society? I doubt, that cure would be used a bargaining device and there would be power struggles. Plus there probably would be factions that prefer the way the world is and wont want to conform to any sense of law and order.
The thing that I dislike about The Last of Us Part 2 isn't the fact that Joel died, but the way he died. Joel is portrayed as a very cautious person, so the way he lets his guard down when he meets Abby's group is out of character. With the experience Joel has, he should have known very well that multiple people would come after him. The writers should have put more thought into how to execute his death.
Joel is what any of us would become. In a world like that, it’s all about survival. If I’m starving or thirsty, then why would I not try to steal water and food? If people are trying to kill me, why would I not fight with everything I have to survive? That’s just human instinct for survival. And yes, anyone would take their anger out on people that are trying to kill them. Was Joel more brutal than he needed to be at some points? Absolutely! He’s no different than Rick Grimes
I don't see Joel as a terrible person and most people who says he is are being very unrealistic! Joel did not go around killing innocent people but those who presented danger or as a threat to him or his loved ones but also his mission (jobs). Joel is easily misunderstood by those who hasn't put themselves in his shoes! What if Sarah lived and was the one that was immune and sought after to bring a cure at the expense of her life, Joel would not have given her up. So, Joel seeing Ellie as his daughter made it just as difficult to give her up as it would have been for him to give up Sarah! This doesn't make him a terrible person, it makes him realistic and human! It's normal for a parent to protect their child at any cost, so anyone who thinks Joel is terrible for his actions in TLOU Pt. 1 are not being true to themselves. So, put yourself in Joel's shoes knowing you're about to lose your child to potential save a humanity that's also already past the point of being saved......... What would you really do in those shoes?
I still don't understand why your channel isn't bigger.I rarely comment on videos but i felt like i had to on this one.I know about your channel for a couple months now, and i like your videos, especially The Walking Dead ones.They are amazing, and i can see that you always put effort in all of your videos.This video is also great, and i would like to see more The Last Of Us videos from you :)
I appreciate comments like this greatly my friend. I do put a lot of work in making these videos and I had a really good time putting this one together! Definitely more on the way and nice to hear they are appreciated!
A lot of things are correct here except for calling him blood thirsty. I think he is comfortable killing if that is the way he sees tomorrow. He doesn’t seeking killing.
If you were to survive 20+ years into a zombie apocalypse, odds are you probably had to do some things that would land you multiple lifetime sentences in normal society. The standard for morality is completely different and in many cases the situation becomes “kill or be killed”. You would have a select few people that you care about and trust while the others are your enemies/obstacles and need to be treated accordingly. That’s why no one that survives that long in a situation like that could possibly be considered “a good person”. Joel is a perfect example of how the toll of just trying to survive in an apocalyptic situation can do to someone for decades. However, his humanity still is in there and it’s brought out with the connections he makes with other people. His loyalty and unconditional love that he shows for the people he cares about are enough to make him human in an inhumane world.
Love Joel as a character not because he's a good person but a believable person. He doesn't drift from his beliefs but sticks to them. He only cared about family be it blood or not. His character in the first game was perfect and im still kinda pissed about the second game. I get that he was old and everything in the second game but Joel was still strong and could probably kill everyone in that room of course he got shot in the knee. The thing im really pissed about tho is that Ellie didn't shoot through the door to save Joel, she saw that he was being killed and didn't end everyone inside. I know it would have cut the story short but I think thats how that room scene would have gone if they played by the characters instead of a script.
The truth is that almost anyone would have done what Joel did in response to what the Fireflies were going to do, harvest a young girl for a cure that was more than likely to fail and without even telling her she would have to die for it to happen. The Fireflies were terrible and deserved their downfall.
my father is a quiet and calm man, he is the type that will show sadness or angry only if its REALLY bad. he is also the only family member i have a good bond with (whole story) because of that i always feel strongly about father figures in media, and why joel's death, though it was expected and made sense, still really hit. which meant my dad ended up asking why i was crying haha. i kept on playing, because i love the last of us and pain like this is part of that world as much as it is ours. (i also tend to apreciate a good media-induced cry, just means the story was good enough to hit were it wanted to hit) joel's death was a consequence of his choices, something that no one should have to make.
Oh Man this was an amazing video. I think Joel is one of the best characters ever. Maybe you should do the same about Ellie. Her story in Part 2 is also great.
My problem with TLOU Pt 2, if I may borrow some words from Father MoisCr1TiKaL himself, is it feels like Pt 2's story was told out of order. Joel deserved to suffer the consequences of his actions in Pt 1, I think most people can agree with that. He shouldn't have gotten away scot-free for what he did to the fireflies. It made sense for him to die. My problem with the story is the way they structured it. When opening up the game, our introduction to Abby is just some random girl who kills Joel for some unknown reason. The game doesn't even tell us that Joel killed her father until, like, 10 hours in. If you played Pt 1, and then immediately went into Pt 2 blind while not knowing anything about it, it's hard to fault the player for feeling anything but hatred towards Abby because the game doesn't even tell us anything about her until we have to play as her. I felt nothing for Abby throughout most of the game because I didn't see her as anything more than just "The girl who killed Joel", and even if that was the point, even if it's meant to mirror how she knew nothing about Joel until her father was killed by him, it matters that this information is communicated to THE PLAYER first and foremost. If the whole point of the game was to make the player feel empathy for Abby, they should've contextualized her as a victim of Joel's FireFly rampage at the BEGINNING of the game. My real issue with Pt 2's story as a whole is that the entire narrative of the game is "revenge is bad", and I will admit that they got that message across, but that doesn't mean they made an enjoyable story. It was interesting seeing how even after Joel and Ellie's relationship was soured once she found out the truth, she still loved and cared for him even if she didn't show it. She obviously cared enough to go on a massive rampage to avenge him. It almost mirrors Joel's rampage at the end of Pt 1 to save Ellie. Here's where the 2 games diverge. Pt 1 is a game full of random NPCs who you're not supposed to think twice about killing. Pt 2 actually gives names and plot importance to the characters who you kill, but you don't even remember who they are half the time. It's like, "Wow, I just killed a pregnant lady. Too bad I don't remember who she was." And I didn't remember who she was, I didn't even remember her name, because she wasn't an important enough character to ME as a player to warrant caring about her at all. Why do the game designers expect you to care about a bunch of random NPCs, when they don't even develop them as characters until they're already dead? By the time you've learned more about them, their significance to you as a player is long gone because they already died. When these characters die, your reaction is either "Oh yeah, that person." Or "Wait, who was that again?" Like I said, if they wanted us to feel empathy for these characters, they should've developed them BEFORE they died! Do you want an example of a character they killed off that we actually DID care about because they were a significantly developed, and important character to US as players leading up to their death? His name is Joel Miller. They killed Joel, and we cared. They killed Abby's friends, and we didn't care. There's a good reason for that. It's because Joel was developed. We learned who he was throughout the course of the 1st game. The whole point of the 1st game is seeing a stone-cold survivor re-learning how to love someone in a way he thought he had lost long ago. You can't just take that away, and replace it with NOTHING. And that's why to me, The Last Of Us Part 2 is a "nothing" game. I felt nothing when killing Abby's friends. I felt nothing when Abby's father died. I felt nothing when the pregnant lady died. In the end, this game has nothing to offer, but everything to take. Joel's death was not a mistake, but everything else story-wise was.
For me the “aha” moment was playing as Abby when aI suddenly realized “oh shit! WE are the bad guys!!!” The more we know about Abby’s story the less Joel and Ellie’s crusade makes sense. It shows how a parent can pass on their worst qualities to their kids. The greatest games I’ve ever played hands down and a tie with Blade Runner for my fav story.
about parents passing on their worst qualities to their kids: joel indirectly taught ellie to deal with grief by ignoring it and trying to forget it. joel told ellie not to bring up tess after she died and as far as we know they never talked about the people who died in the first game. this made ellie do the same for joel after his death, but as it's an unhealthy way to deal with grief, it never worked
@@ellatt6691 not really an “aha” moment, but very heartwarming. A nice reminder that despite the status of this world, it’s not all bad. I also love the convo before it. “What was that?” “Oh, nothing.” “Well, nothing sure sounds nice.”
Biggest thing About Joel ,Not Saying He Didn’t Earn It But His Death Just Seem Rushed , If Them Getting Ambushed In The Beginning Results in Them 3 Back in town , Abbie see a whole Nother side of Joel , probably still try an kill him but give Ellie the role of being the only one to stop her even tho she still got issues with Joel , plus probably gain respect & Perspective for him being separated from her team maybe even Have Him Sacrifice Himself for Ellie an Abbie then let they issue play out , He was Selfish But he Like that friend u wanna look out for who u can Relate to
I found it weird that this man we’re shown has severe trust issues in part 1 just suddenly ok with walking into a room completely unarmed with strangers. You kinda have to show that big of development otherwise it feels cheap. Like when did he get over these issues (especially given the end of 1)? How did he learn to trust people? We don’t get any of it.
Man TLOU 2 is my favourite out of the 2. I was new to the series and bought both of them at the same time and played them back to back and need to say the 2nd is by far not just better in game play and setting. But the over all story is great. Joel needed to die for the story to have a meaning. Abby is a great character and her motives make sense. Ellie's motives make sense. They both didn't get to say goodbye to their fathers/father figures due to the cost of one another. Yes it's a revenge story but there's so much more involved in it.
I’m fed up of people too but also of people acting like him dying came completely out of left field. the fact some people seemed completely blown away by the idea that Joel would die surprised me more than his fate itself did. I love his character too, don’t get me wrong though
Hey this is how I feel about him. He's my favorite fictional character but everyone gets him twisted. Especially after tlou 2. People treat him like a hero or a good person. He's closer to a villain than a hero, especially after what he did in 1. I really like Abby and I only like her because I like Joel so much.
Joel isn’t bad because the FireFlies actually did experiment with people who were immune but ALL failed. I’m not talking about a few people, more like in the tens if not hundreds. All without any show of a vaccine. Joel did what was right and saved Ellie from a pointless death.
@@prioban realistically he's not wrong. the fireflies were trying for, specifically, a vaccine to cure it, and vaccines aren't used to cure fungal infections, they're used for viruses. either, the writers are stupid or the fireflies are.
Neil Druckmann stated that the cure would have worked... just like a couple bandages on the arm in the game can completely heal a shotgun blast to the chest. The game is grounded in reality, but has many fictional parts
Something people dont get is that Joel isnt inherently selfish. He is selfless when it comes to his loved ones. But also selfish to those who arent his loved ones, and could possibly harm those who he loves
The problem with this is that yeah he stopped the doctors from killing Ellie but killing her was the worst thing to do to “try and find a cure” and the fireflies didn’t even give him what they agreed on in the first place for taking Ellie there :/
I was a joel defender.....ugh...i hate to say it,but you might have turned me. The narrative makes sense. That being said,ellie suffered so much in part 2. The last of us 3 at least needs to give her a happy ending. Joels only legacy.
He truthfully isn’t even that “terrible” of a person. He is arguably what most people would turn into in a time like that. But I do agree playing as a character who has or does terrible things does make the character more interesting as you try to figure out the reasonings for his dark turn. Other than the fact ya know, he lost his daughter.
Here's my hot take. Joel's only a "terrible person" if: 1. You look at him from a lens that sees the fireflies as a selfless group people who just wanted to create a cure for humanity. 2. If you judge him by our standards and disregard all the context behind his demeanor. I can never see Joel as a terrible person. Sure he has his terrible takes and awful moments but who doesn't? Is anyone here even confident enough to say that they've never lashed out at a sibling/made a selfish choice? Besides, what kind of terrible person fulfills a dead person's wish when that said dead person has no way of verifying if they even did what they were asked for nor do they gain anything from it?I've also never seen a terrible person be so thoughtful of the people they've become close to. Normally, terrible people only use the people around them for their own benefit. I've also never seen terrible people be good parents to their kids and Sarah seemed to really adore Joel. I just find it odd to label Joel a terrible man for things he ends up doing in the APOCALYPSE all while discrediting the consistent signs of him being an overall good person simply because they're not big enough to seem remarkable. Examples of these are: - Compromising for the people he's with so long as it's attainable (ex. following Tess' orders, giving into Ellie's wishes after their big fight at the ranch, giving Ellie a gun and admitting he was wrong, Giving Sam and Henry a chance after Ellie convices him- and that happened TWICE) - Being thoughtful to Ellie by consistently thinking about her safety- sometimes even endangering his own just to do so (Refusing to jump off the bridge cause Ellie can't swim, getting the gun despite being shot at by Henry, Fighting an entire hospital just to save Ellie) - Reassuring Ellie that the fireflies aren't going to hurt her despite not actually knowing what's going to happen - Putting Ellie first (ex. asking Marlene to find another way, wanting to see Ellie right after waking up) - Leaving the bandit life for a smuggler one when it seems like a harder job since he was living under fedra doing illegal sht that could get him outnumbered and killed easily. As a bandit, he wouldn't have had to deal with that since they're mostly in packs/groups and lived in places that were run by their own group. - Using the torture method ONLY when NECESSARY (ex. when he needs info) and immediately ending it once he gets what he needed (unlike Abby who canonically tortures to relieve stress/anger). - Having the capability to admit his faults and feel guilty about it All these things, in my opinion, are good enough reason for me to believe that Joel is not and was never a terrible person. Just a normal guy who was pushed to do terrible things to survive.
@@thorthewolf8801 She says that because she just found Mel's corpse (another pregnant woman) and thinks Ellie & co. killed her without any remorse. She's blinded by rage. An "eye for an eye" type of mentality. If she truly "enjoys killing pregnant women", she would have killed Dina regardless of Lev's intervention 😂.
@@b.u.l.1734 But she never cared about Mel. In most scenes they were together they were arguing with each other. Besides, Abby was a homewrecker, she seduced Mels babys father. When she finds their dead bodies, she doesnt even acknowledge her. Yes, she only stopped because of Lev. Great!
@@thorthewolf8801 I mean... yeah, it's actually a great thing what she does. Would you spare the person who killed your lover and all your friends? That's a pretty comendable thing for a person who is supposedly "terrible". Just saying... 🤷
personal hot take: Joel’s death, while tragic, kept in with the first games lessons. The apocalypse is a harsh, unforgiving place, and you have to be hard to see yourself and loved ones live through it.
My argument about the ending of the first game is that they play tested it with two groups. One wasn’t a parent and chose to have Ellie 50% of the time and the other group was parents and chose to save Ellie 100% of the time and there was never a question l. Thats why the game developers choose to save her. He is a parent, he was Sarah’s parent and now Ellies it is what any parent would do.
because he’s from texas
You win best comment 😂
As someone who’s from Texas, I can confirm this 🤣
am from texas: can confirm
Damn Straight!
Atleast he isn't from california
The reason why I like Joel is because he is a terrible person. He just feels real. He's not your generic good guy character. Just a guy forced to do horrible things to stay alive in the apocalypse
that's not a terrible person tho, you'd have to call every character in twd terrible but they aren't stupid video imo
He’s a terrible person with a heart
@@victorreznov6320 I don't think we played the same game Joel was a badass saw to much of his daughter in ellie and couldn't let her die but whatever like i said you're gonna have to call every survivor in the apocalypse terrible just because they have to get their hands dirty abit you pussy
@@legionman2441 look at the way he interrogates people lol when it’s for Ellie we understand but you do realise he’d do that to others who never did anything to him? And yeah no shit the apocalypse makes people shitty guess what tard just cause it’s the apocalypse don’t make it shitty.
Yes it does. When you talk about If something is bad it is always realtive to something else. If Joel was an bad before shit hit the fan, than yes he is a bad person. But once shit has hit the fan and everyone else morals has gotten worse than no he would be considered just normal their for Joel is no longer a bad person.
Joel: Kills and mutilates zombies and people in front of Ellie
Also Joel: “Ellie, that magazine isn’t for kids”
😂😂😂
Reminds me of in Logan where Charles tells Logan off for swearing infront of Laura
"So she can't gut a man with her feet but she can't hear a few naughty words" 😂
Spoken like a true patriot
That's just the average treatment in America for example: 16 years old can't buy beer or cigarretes but they can join the military at that age
Kenny : because I'm a Christian man
Tbh i think Joel was a real depiction of what a person could become in apocalypse
Totally.
Rick Grimes is a better example imo. We see Joel 20 years into the apocalypse but you actually see Rick's defining moments that make him the ruthless killer that he becomes.
@@recklessnotion1899 yea rick was way more ruthless and brutal compared to Joel
@@clackkokicks7731 i wouldn't even say that. I actually think Joel is more ruthless..for example the interrogation scene or the fact you can blow enemies to bits depending on how you play.
Im just saying you actually get to see the transformation of Rick, compared to Joel where we just see the end result of what that world can do to a man who's lost everything after 20 years. I think Rick is more interesting for the simple fact he has multiple character development arcs and actually struggles with completely being a savage up until the end of season 4 where he just accepts thats who he is when he needs to be and no longer feeling remorse or guilt about it.
@@recklessnotion1899 i think its a bit different from rick, cause joel is just a civilian meanwhile rick was police officers (pre apocalypse). And also rick is trying to make the world better because he knows this isn't the right world they use to live in, meanwhile joel is a survivor that follow what the end of the world rules do
“You’d just come after her” Is my favorite quote and scene in gaming history
"That's ok. I believe him."
Cutting loose ends 🤷🏾♂️ I would’ve done it too
@@joejoerunya8908 Man, you people are biased.
@@christhefiend Can you blame us? It's because we empathize with Joel despite the horrible things he has done.
@@christhefiend how is that being biased ?
I think it’s somewhat silly to describe a character as “a terrible person” in a universe like the last of us. You would be extremely hard pressed to find any person still alive in tlou universe that we wouldn’t define as a terrible person. He’s likely gone further than many others, but still he hasn’t completely lost himself, evident in his connection with Eliie. And while Joel may have made a selfish decision, you can’t definitively say it was wrong.
Exactly. He’s a terrible person by our standards, living in our world. But he doesn’t live in that world. You can’t live in that world and be a “good person”.
And honestly, I just really can't get behind the idea that he's "terrible". Sure, he's terrible to people he barely knows but a lot of people with trust issues are already like that in OUR world where there are no risks of getting infected by a mushroom virus that takes over your whole body. And people seem to forget the fact that he lost his daughter due to him trusting that a stranger would help them in their dire situation.
The fireflies wouldnt have been able to make the cure anyway
@@nicholaslopez2156 And even if they were, who says they weren't going to use it to re-establish their power in society?
Yeah relatively speaking, Joel is a decent guy. Not terrible, not a saint, but he is descent. He was friendly to Henry even after being left for dead, did his best to hold up his promise to Tess, and tried to comfort Bill after he found his partner dead. He's obviously done some fucked up and selfish shit, but nothing that surpasses the antagonists in TLOU.
for me Joel is the perfect example of an anti hero. a villain would have killed ellie to doom the world, a hero would have sacrificed the girl to save the world. the anti hero said fuck you to the world and protected the only thing that was left for him to care for. the world took everything from him, so he took everything from the world.
His alignment is chaotic neutral to chaotic good. By the end of the game, he does try to do the right thing when he can but he will do what's necessary to protect his family.
Yeah & what if Ellie gets sick or injured or something & needs help?
Joel: ELLIE! Don’t worry babygirl, I’ll take you to a…oh shit. 🤦🏾♂️
@@christhefiend The alternative is that she isn't there to be sick or injured, she isn't there at all. Also, just a question, how do you think other settlements survived?
@@65firered I don’t understand what that has to do with my comment. Please, elaborate.
@@christhefiend You made a joke, I hope. I'm simply pointing from a lore and story perspective, that it is already addressed.
I don't think he's a terrible person because he don't do bad things for fun, he does for surviving or protect those he loves
"Cool motive, still murder."
@@Jarino507I mean yeah but if it has to be done then it has to be done.
@@lemons3703 r/woooosh
@@Jarino507 there was really nothing to frame it as being a joke so it’s not really my fault. Also you’re a cringe redditor
@@MountOrlok Wooooow. Didn't know you were the comedy police.
The tape recording Ellie finds at the hospital wasn’t actually of Marlene, as she wouldn’t have had time to make it before dying. It was actually Mel, who was a student of Abby’s father
I thought it was Nora's recorder. That's who it sounded like to me.
@@lyndseyring8704 nope, was Mel, you can really hear it when she says “it would make no difference” she says it rapidly and out of breath like Mel always does, like later when she tells Abby “Scars are tough”
They still would’ve had a chance. 🤷🏾♂️
@@uhuhuh1966 Ellie was humanity’s last chance & Joel wanted to doom it all for HIS OWN WORLD. HIS PERSONAL HAPPINESS. Okay. If anything happened to Ellie outside of Joel’s control, she tripped & died or anything, that would’ve been it. All these pyramids, & schools, people, & futures, gone. Cuz Joel wanted another daughter. Even though he’d probably die soon anyway, he wac getting up & age & didn’t live the healthiest lifestyle so, I’m just saying. Joel was a true selfish piece of shit for that in my opinion man. 🤷🏾♂️ I love him but I never kiss ass, unless it’s a beautiful woman’s & I mean that literally. 🤣
It was marlene though it's literally her voice actor
I like to think that Joel did feel guilty towards his actions at the hospital. Doesn't mean he would go back and change things but I'm sure the guilt of dooming the rest of humanity is still there. During the segment where Ellie is exploring his house after he died, she goes into the bathroom that's connected to his room. Inside, the mirror seems to have been removed. It's been theorized that Joel removed it himself due to not being able to look at himself in the mirror after what he did. This is all just speculation of course but I just thought I'd bring it up. Really enjoyed the video.
Very interesting! Never caught that before.
Seemed like they were surviving just fine without the cure, life might've been better without internet and all this bullshit...
@@thethriftytypewriter Joel realizes the weight of his decision. The moment he enters the elevator with Ellie, he looks up as if he's looking up towards God and mutters, "oh, God..."
Also, in an episode of Play, Watch, Listen (video games + variety podcast) (th-cam.com/video/J_erTqnYOxc/w-d-xo.html, 1:05:46 to 1:14:56) Troy Baker said that even though Joel would do it all over again... He DOES realize that he's done something pretty fucked up (hospital decision and the lie to Ellie). It's why he dedicates himself to the community of Jackson: helping other patrolling folks, actively going out on patrols himself, keeping Jackson safe, helping the strangers he finds outside (something that folks in Jackson did), preparing the next generation of patrolling folks (he trained Jesse and both of them had respect for each other). Joel was an important part of the community there. He also worked as a luthier. He had experience as a carpenter. I'm sure that he helped with construction projects in the town. He was a valued member of that town (one only needs to look at all the flowers outside his house), and becoming an asset to the community was Joel's way of doing penance for his transgressions.
Joel actually gave the mirror that is missing to Ellie. It’s in her little garage house. That being said he definitely feels guilty about what he did. He’s terrified that Tommy will hate him when he tells him what happened in the beginning of part two. That’s why he gets choked up and he’s unable to speak for several moments after Tommy tells him that he understands him. (Also small thing but I love how when we’re controlling Joel, we don’t get to see his moments of emotional vulnerability with the camera there and when he’s given the picture of Sarah, because he wouldn’t want us to see it) But the mirror thing is Joel just being a nice dad who wanted his surrogate daughter to have everything she wanted/needed. There are two mirrors up in the en suite bathroom that has all his grooming products on the counter like hairbrush, toothbrush etc.
This is actually a theory I could get behind (unlike many others)
One of my favorite lines in the whole game is the part where Ellie asks Joel how he knew about the “injured” man being an ambush and he replies with “I’ve been on both sides.” That one line gives us so much about his character. The things he has done to survive must’ve been so brutal, and that makes him such an intriguing character. I really want to know everything he did during that time jump from the opening.
just like what troy said, joel saw ellie as his daughter by the time while taking her to the fireflies, he said "joel did save the world because the world is that girl"
joel is a good father, it reminds me of "the quiet place" because the parents in the first season (2nd too) are actually a real life married couple who created a whole movie talking about how much they will sacrifice to save their own children, i think its a perfect example of how much ellie means to joel
+ English is not my first language, sorry
Troy is wrong.
@@donovanumbra9704 really ? so your saying your go going to sacrifice your own kids for this world ? your going to hell and be a bad parent-- wow
@@donovanumbra9704 remember they had other kids they brought before and they still didn’t find a cure they could have ended up killing ellie and been no closer to a cure. I think joel did the right thing
I’m glad someone else brought up Tess’ last wish. For him to deliver her to the fireflies. “You must feel some kind of obligation to me.” I’ve thought of that too but no one else seemed to bring it up, like, ever which is so weird bc it’s one of her last words to Joel and last words ever. But I see how having a daughter might change that by the end. And I think that if Tess were to survive, she would also be a parental figure for Ellie also. I could tell before she died
Actually, Tess said you've got to get this girl to Tommy's, he'll know where the Fireflies are. Joel did exactly what Tess asked him to do.
@@niallhughes2697 umm, that’s just word play bro……
Tess didn't know they were going to kill her for some idea that Ellie might be the key to a vaccine. And when you look into this further from real scientists, they tell you all they would need is a blood sample, not to open up her skull and hope for the best. The fireflies where useless and Joel knew this. He made the right choice and I would argue Tess would of changed her mind too
I would've liked to have seen a sequel where Joel was alive to show him struggle with that
I love Joel so much because despite how he was a horrible person, he feels very real, relatable and he is the perfect example of how most people would turn out to be if they were to fully adapt to the apocalypse in order to survive.
Nobody in this series is 100% pure. Not even Ellie, Tommy, or Abby!
Abby? Joel is a saint compared to that pos.
While that's 100% true a lot of people have Joel on a pedestal and act as if he can't do no wrong
Not even Jesse, and he’s my favorite character in the game
@@elishawilson5342 that’s unfortunately how the Internet is. Quite a few characters that did very bad things have a lot of apologists. Joel is just one example. I was honestly surprised to hear people defend the horrible actions of Snape from Harry Potter, not to mention Cersei from GoT.
why is he a horrible person? One action that makes him a bad guy. He is in the fucking apocaliptic world and fights for survival every day, yes ofc he had to kill many people, quite brutally too, but i havent seen one inhumane thing i wouldnt have done in his situation.
Joel did terrible things but he still remains relatable and most importantly, human. I would not describe him as bloodthirsty as I do not see any hint of joy when he is fighting. But without a doubt, he's a hardened killer. You'd have to be to survive in such a world. Most importantly, any argument that Joel should have surrendered Ellie to the Fireflies overlooks the existence of one crucial character in TLOU: Sarah. If we gloss over Sarah's story and the profound effect she had on Joel, it'd be easy to dismiss Joel's decision at the hospital as sheer selfishness. But the entire game follows Joel's inner struggle against bonding with Ellie but forming a surrogate parent relationship nonetheless. Tell me, what kind of insane, demented, inhuman kind of father, would give his own daughter up to die? No father at all. In the same shoes, I'd do the same. As a father, nothing less is expected for your child.
It is implied that Joel at one point was a hunter, just like the guys who tried killing him and Ellie in the city as they made their way to the fireflies. Ellie asks him if he killed people and him not answering. That and Tommy saying he had "Nightmares about those times" when Joel was saying he kept them alive. So it can be taken that Joel was brutal earlier on in the apocalypse, or in other words "bloodthirsty".
@@kostadim7892 Implied. Not stated. Not shown. Maybe he killed hundreds of "innocent people," maybe NONE. All he admits to is being on both sides of an ambush. Tommy's statement about "nightmares" could not be more vague. It would have been a nightmare without Joel, too. That is all we have on the record. Everything else is speculation.
@@kostadim7892 Anybody just trying to survive would of likely been the same way.
Very well said. I just played through part 1 on ps5 and I absolutely loved it. Describing Joel as a terrible person is kind of obsurd, given the circumstances. All he was was a hard working, loving father from the very beginning. Only after the whole zombie apocalypse did he have to kill to survive. I love Joel as a character. I probably will not purchase part 2 though, because I've seen too much about what happens and I really don't like it.
exactly, we know joel and how he is, i don’t think he’s a terrible person, but he’s done terrible things, but its the apocalypse. it’s different than our world. what we must focus on is our time with him, we come to know him, just like all the other characters in the game
I just like how real Joel is. He’s flawed and he’s selfish to an extent. Ellie mentioned about a dream where she was in a crashing plane full of people. The absent pilot is a metaphor for the missing cure. Ellie wants to save mankind, but obviously "she didn't know how to fly a plane". That can also be a metaphor that the Fireflies will not be able to synthesize a cure despite Ellie's sacrifice. Thus, crashing the plane with no certainty if there would be any survivors. That is some heavy foreshadowing. Personally, this is what heavily drove me (or in this case, Joel) into saving Ellie. This game never has coincidences. Extracting Ellie's brain would've been in vain. Besides it’s not like all the cannibals and hunter’s would stop just because there would be a cure. Is the moral choice of the world to sacrifice one life for the sake of many? Yes. But remember this is an unforgiving world where morals have been more or less thrown out the window. Joel is likable because I think a lot of us would make that same decision he did were we in his shoes.
Well said. I agree.
Aaaaand that same world took the most precious thing in his life 20 years ago
@@LucYGaming_ so? It was one soldier. Stop acting so pretentious. People keep on saying that like that is a such a deep way to explain what he did.
@@jimmycevallos4468It was on orders from the military. The military clearly had orders to kill survivors on sight. A bunch of Joel’s were probably created that same day because of direct orders from the government. Along with the government creating martial law and oppressing civilians why would Joel or anyone like him not have a grudge against the military and therefore the government and any paramilitary groups claiming to be a higher force
i think its less about the theoretical nature of it and more based on the principle, but context is also important. you can't just say "it would've been in vain" like its a concrete fact because we will simply never know. we see it as joel does because we are him throughout the game, and we experience what he experiences, through his eyes and POV. some might say that the risk was a necessary one, like ellie herself, as she feels the guilt of not being able to do something impactful with her immunity. but the game left many agreeing with what joel did. which is an interesting conversation in itself, morals and all. i dont think joel is a terrible person personally, based on what we've actually seen him do. he was a broken man that was trying to be whole again, and in that process he made an extremely selfish decision. i don't think that makes him a terrible person, it makes him human. that's why we all love joel so much, he is incredibly relatable. compared to the hunters and other enemies we see throughout the game id consider those to be much more terrible than joel ever was.
Being with Joel is one of the safest place you can be in TLOU world
Not if you're not Ellie
I mean why tf is he going to protect you lol
Every time I watch the ending encounter at the hospital in part 1 I think all of this could have very possibly been solved it they let Joel talk to Ellie and didn’t treat him so damn hostile . I know they needed an ending level for the game but the firefly’s had no reason to be so hostile to Joel from the jump .
The problem is the fact that the Fireflies took any agency a little girl has in an operation like that in the first place. If they had actually let Joel talk to Ellie, that would’ve meant that the FF actually cared enough about Ellie to talk to her. I also think Marlene knows Joel well enough to know when he’s about to try something.
@@REChronic54 The fireflies had already talked to Elli. Joel wasn't her father, he was a carrier (they are not aware of how things have changed). It was Elli who wanted this. Joel is basically a Fedex that starts shooting at you rigth after you signed your package.
@@limonsoda I think Ellie sensed that she was gonna be a test subject but she was never explicitly told she’d die from an operation. She would’ve still given her life if she knew but the fact that FF/Marlene chose to not tell her leads me to believe that they’re scared of her opposing, which means they don’t actually care about what she says. I just think the FF and Joel both contribute to the disaster.
@@limonsoda correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe we ever hear from anyone that the fireflies talked to Ellie. We don’t hear otherwise either right?
Exactly. The Fireflies messed up royally. Just talk to Joel and Ellie together and let her make the decision. She would have said yes and Joel would have most likely respected her decision even if it killed him inside. But no. They just kidnapped her unconscious body and were going to leave Joel to die without any supplies or weapons. They seriously thought that was a good idea to do with someone like Joel? They’re idiots and hypocrites. That’s all they are. Hell, even if Ellie said “No I don’t want to do the surgery” they probably would have just knocked her out again and shot Joel in the head. They’re power hungry terrorists with a god complex. I don’t feel bad for them whatsoever. Joel made the right choice.
I don't feel like Joel is a bad guy for saving Ellie, and honestly think the fireflies were. They were about to kill an unconcious child without her consent and would probably be unable to make a vaccine, as told through notes in the first game.
Fr if you actually go into the nuances Joel’s decision wasn’t THAT despicable if you just take into consideration how incompetent the fireflies were as a group I mean cmon hiring some random smugglers to deliver the cure for mankind across the post apocalypse country doesn’t seem very professional plus even if they somehow created a vaccine would they even be able to distribute it? Would it even matter this far into the apocalypse?
The whole point of the second game is that she was okay with it. And since it’s a game, it would’ve worked
@@tamd5670 Except the in-level notes imply that the chance for a cure was ever slim, so since it's a game and the writers say the chance of it working was slim, it MAY have worked but LIKELY wouldn't have.
There's also no hint of knowledge in the first game that Ellie knew she would die to produce the cure; TLOU2 is a major retcon in that department which it uses to justify Ellie's hatred and split from Joel.
@@tamd5670 The second game was written by Neil Druckmann who got a woman fired and had all her work scrapped on Uncharted 4 because he thought his ideas were better. The woman was critically acclaimed and audience favorite writer/designer/director Amy Hennig.
His original idea for the TLOU1 was that the fungus only affected and killed women.
His first original story that he wrote and got published, A Second Chance at Sarah, can best be summed up as "A woman I'm not romantically interested in needs to die so I can fulfill my love quest."
Seems the more believable reason for why Ellie saying she needs to die was because Neil may have some issues with women.
@@tamd5670 Consent doesnt work like how you think it does. You HAVE to give consent. Otherwise you are a rapist who says "she wanted it". Thats not a good look. Similarly, never did Ellie actually give consent to be killed for a CHANCE for the cure.
And since its a game, the cure might not have worked. It goes both ways.
I never understood the whole, "Joel did nothing wrong" idea. He's a tragic, terrible, and ultimately selfish person. But that's what makes me love him as a character, because he is so flawed and complex. You can also see/understand why he makes certain decisions, but doesn't mean they are right or he did nothing wrong. He did possibly condemn the human race to the apocalypse (as there was no assurance the vaccine could work), but still an amazing character
because anyone who was actually into tlou and read the noted and audio logs and payed attention can see it was not going to work
1 audiolog from the fireflies says its very slim 1 note mentions how in 1 year 60 percent of people were dead
2 the state of the hospital
3 the doctor being a vet
@@massy9437 Even Joel says, "They were actually going to make a cure" in the opening of the Last of Us 2. He doesn't say, "It wasn't going to work so I had to get her out of there." He believed and knew it would work.
But he chose to do what he did anyways.
Even Joel knows the stakes of what he did.
@@Tcab96
1: I am far more willing to accept material from the original game than I am willing to accept material from the sequel, given how disrespectful and contradicting of the original game the sequel is. It’s pretty clear to anyone with a lick of intelligence in writing can see that the writing in TLOU 2 is agenda driven and takes liberties to established lore instead of a natural evolution of what was originally set up.
2: Even if the reverse engineered vaccine was 100% going to work, which it wasn’t, that doesn’t solve how morally bankrupt the whole of humanity is. Making David immune from turning wouldn’t have stopped him and his group from being cannibalistic rapist murderers. What is there to save? Nothing. The world has been over since 2013. I wouldn’t expect people to endorse Joel’s decision, but if you don’t understand it, then don’t bother.
@@treymagathan847 1. The material from the sequel is made by the same guy who made the first game you're conveniently willing to accept and dick ride.
The topic of whether or not the cure would or would not have worked has absolutely nothing to do with any "agendas" and you can't demonstrate it does in any capacity. It's a complete non-sequitur.
If you don't like the sequel, that's fine, but don't give this bullshit excuse about "agendas" because your video game daddy died.
2. It would have worked. Stay mad.
You're demonstrating you don't know what you're talking about not only when it comes to the game but also humanity.
The reason humanity was so fucked was because it was dealing with a global and overwhelming threat that was the cordyceps.
Did you think humanity was all hunky-dory and singing Kumbaya prior to the 21st Century? Humanity's history is bloody and fucked up. Absolutely nothing humans did in the Last of Us is at all any different than humanity's first ascent into the 21st century. And yet, nonetheless, humans managed to have prosperous civilizations that resulted in the most peaceful time in all of human history.
Not to mention, not all humans were monsters in the Last of Us. Settlements like Jackson seemed perfectly fine and on the up and up. Demonstrating that humanity can be perfectly fine and come back.
At least with a cure, there was a hope and a chance things could be righted in a better direction faster.
I don't know why you bothered to comment if you didn't even understand the subject matter to begin with.
@@Tcab96 This was their retcon. In part 1 the notes told us the vaccine wasn't a sure thing, but in Part 2 that was all forgotten and they acted like it was a sure thing.
I just love how Joel isn’t just some power fantasy blank slate for the players to project themselves on. He feels like a real guy with real flaws who the player just so happens to control during gameplay. Naughty Dog wasn’t afraid to have situations where Joel can piss players off with his actions like being mean to Ellie after she saved his life or forcing Tommy to take her off his hands. But at the same time, you totally get why he is the way he is because of that prologue with his daughter. That’s always in the back of your mind when you play the game. He feels like such a real person.
i think “bloodthirsty” is a stretch, he doesn’t kill because he likes it but because it is necessary for him and his company to survive
Joel isn’t a “terrible” person,He just only thinks about himself and his peers especially ellie,human civilisation had already fallen and had already collapsed so his actions are justified because he loved Ellie and the world was to far gone to be saved
He did stuff so bad his own brother left him still getting nightmares of the years they spent together, he must've done some pretty bad stuff then. We know he used to be a hunter and we've seen what those people do in the first game so we know that Joel killed people just to take their food and clothes because that's what hunters do and you can't really say that was justified because there are other means of getting clothes and food that doesn't involve people being killed over it. I think it's safe to say that Joel was a terrible person, maybe he redeemed himself but he did some awful things.
Absolutely not justified. You may agree with his reasoning just fine, but he was A) not doing the job he was asked to do, B) Taking a dump on top of Ellie's choices and Tess' wishes, C) Actively not allowing humanity to have a chance at reversing the Apocalypse. Yes, humanity has fallen, but is not extiguished, and the very fact that he only thinks on himself, shows how selfishness is his only motivation. The idea that everything is "too far gone" is just a weak justification (never stated in the game) to not allow yourself that just love a peace of shit human being, and trying to turn him into some kind of hero in your mind. I Love this character, but i knew if it was ever gonna be a sequel, he had to pay. Saw that miles away.
That's literally why he is terrible though lmao...you can't just say "well I loved them" to justify dooming humanity and brutally murdering people. The fact that so many people in the comments are liking this and saying similar things is wild
It's not justified. You can't just say that humanity has already fallen like that exonerates Joel's decision. He made a choice, a selfish one that not only doomed the possibility for humanity to make a cure (whether this saved humanity or not it's not the point, the point is that it wasn't his choice to make) and didn't care about Ellie's wishes nor intentions, not to mention Tess's. I love this dichotomy and decision, and it does make it a great character because of his choices, but to say he isn't terrible, is just you fooling yourself and justifying the not justifiable.
@@limonsoda there’s actually journals and notes in the game that you can find that proves that the fire flies didn’t know what the fuck they were doing like they didn’t know how to reverse engineer a vaccine so regardless of killing the choice Joel made There is no way humanity would have been saved even with a small window that could’ve been given thanks to Eli’s sacrifice and let’s not forget the fire flies didn’t give her a choice
They literally made Joel Human. The most Human character we’ve ever seen in gaming history.
Joel is a SURVIVALIST. He isn't terrible, he knows it's a harsh world that needs a harsh but strong resolve. He isn't terrible, he is realistic in the world that the Last of Us is set in.
Finally someone who actually has sense
IMO leaving Ellie to the firefly’s is way more terrible then saving an innocent child from being murdered no matter if you thought Ellie would be ok with it, she should still have the right to consent
And if the firefly’s were so sure that Ellie would say yes why didn’t they ask her? Because they didn’t want to risk her saying no. But somehow Joel is in the wrong
what scares me about joel is how anyone can turn into him. if you push someone to the point where they have to survive whilst dealing with losing the only thing they cared about…. you can create evil.
I hate how I described joel as evil… tbh he was just a conflicted man who made a selfish decision that honestly anyone can understand.
Good thing he isn’t evil
Joel is a horrible person, but he’s not a bad guy. He loves his two daughters and he never stopped loving them. It’s like my favorite quote, “A hero would sacrifice you to save the world, but a villain would destroy the world if he ever saw you hurt.”
I honestly would've given anything to see Joel and Ellie reconcile and be back together again. If only Part 2 didn't kill him off too early.
It’s honestly what makes me like part 2 so much. We love both of these characters and want what’s best for them, but it can’t happen, and Ellie never got to say goodbye to him so it makes it all the more tragic. I don’t wanna get too in depth I’ll save it for the Ellie video 😂
@@thethriftytypewriter I would of liked if the had them on good terms again and THEN kill joel, which i think would of made his death more devastating and impactful.
Hopefully they give us a game that takes place in those 5 years
His death was sloppy.
Agreed
He wasn’t a terrible person. He was a survivor.
Being a “hunter” was the only way to survive at that time. Despite what we want to believe about ourselves given the right circumstances we all would do unspeakable things to survive.
@@Veachie no he didn’t. He had no resources and had to acquire them some how. Imagine you living in an apocalypse with nothing. You’d soon turn to killing to survive. We all would.
He is actively a predator. He is not just a survivor. Tess was a survivor, and still kept way more of her soul than Joel. Even in the start of the game he was willing to let other children die, if that gave him a heads up (and he didn't knew anything about zombies or anything at that point). He is a selfish ass. I like him, but i would never trust the man.
@@limonsoda how do you know that? We're not really given all that much on tess' past and she's as stone cold as Joel so i personally beg to differ. She also admits that they're both terrible people in her final moments so that's her own honest opinion.
@@limonsoda His goal at the start was to keep Sarah safe. Extra people would mean extra liability.
I just finished The Last of Us for the first time, and I think what I appreciated about his character was that he is very clearly not a "good" character, but he is a great one. And the creators never tried to shy away or change that about him. He's a bad dude who does a lot of bad stuff. But he is loyal to a fault and when he loves people he truly loves them. I think it was excellent characterisation by the creators and they clearly spent a lot of time on him
The reason I like Joel is not because he is a terrible person, but because he did everything to protect what he loves most with his life
He’s still a terrible person, I would kill the whole world for my family, I’m doing it bc I love my family but that doesn’t mean what I’m doing isn’t selfish
I feel that Joel was 100% at peace with his death. Obviously it was painful but the fact that Ellie told him she wanted to make things work the night before was all he needed to be at peace. Plus he got one last glimpse of his baby girl before he went. Joel regretted nothing and was ready in that moment to leave this world.
His morals were indeed skewed but it’s all a matter of perspective and circumstance. Just like Tommy said, I personally can’t say I would’ve done differently for those I love and that’s what so beautiful about the story so far of the Last of us.
Thing is as far as he knew at that moment, Ellie and Tommy was next. And it was because of his actions and negligence. From what I see that last look would be from someone who thought that they failed to protect what they loved. If not brought harm unto them.
1:47 I didn't realize in my playthrough that what the soldier did to him and his daughter was karma for abandoning the family that asked for help
The old Joe , the nice guy, he died the moment his daughter got killed that night in such a terrible way. what we see is how a nice guy become human without goals , like a animal without human feelings, but still keeps going until he experience what means be alive , again, thanks to Ellie.
I think it would be great to see a video about Abbie. She gets too much hate. Her story in TLOU2 is fantastic
This is just me but I didn’t care for her and her friends story until I played the game a second time. Owen is such a tragic character. God damn, I loved this game.
@@EJD339 I feel like Abbie raped Owen lol. like, obviously she didn't but the scene where they did the deed was a lot lol. I don't think he could have stopped her
@@EJD339 I’m on my second play through, after beating it upon release. Definitely made me realize how tragic Owens story is. I’m still indifferent about Abby. She lost her dad, sure. But everything else is out the window. Recordings you find in the first and second game show that her dad wasn’t even sure the surgery with Ellie would provide a cure. Coupled with the fact that, in real life, it’s impossible to cure a fungus infection of the brain (although I understand it’s a fiction story). From what you gather, her dad was an egotistical maniac who thought he could save the world by sacrificing a child. So Joel didn’t cheat the world of a certain cure, he just denied it’s possibility. To save the child he, in his mind, redeemed himself with. Abby can kick rocks in my opinion.
Nah Abby can go kick rocks or something
I wish I liked her more. She's so close to being a good character, but damn do they waste her. I hope they fix her in a sequel. Her biggest sin is she's boring more than anything.
Joel isnt a bad person. We would put ourselves over the rest of the world too. Joel is smart and calculated. He risked his life (100's lf times) for this random young girl. He builds a relationship with her then takes her in and treats her as if she was his blood.
@GoddessBat16 agreed 1000% thats why when i see vids saying "joel was a bad man" "joel getting killed is justified" its dum an makes no sense.
@GoddessBat16 exactlyyyyyyyyyyyyy ... thank you
By far the highest quality video youve put out. Absolute 10/10, I can tell a lot of effort went into this!
Thank you so much!! It definitely took awhile so I appreciate that 😂
I don't care what he did, he's not a terrible person, he's a survivor
exactly!!!
He is the asshole who tries to kill you for your supplies, and don't give a shit. If you were the protagonist of the game, Joel would be a boss you have to kill.
@@limonsoda joel>>>you
@@limonsoda If everyone's terrible, then who is truly terrible? Out of all the bad things Joel did, so many people have done way worse. ABBY being one, thats why it dosent work.
Naughty Dog telling us "Joel bad" while playing with a character that is and has donde much worse. Truly a "lol" moment.
@@limonsoda Not really, if Joel encountered someone with supplies he'd rob them but he wouldn't kill them. I mean he could have just killed Bill after he gave them a car.
He's one of my favorite characters & I think the title sums him up well for me.
Joel is a survivor, and at the end of the day, "good people" usually won't survive an apocalypse
Joel's fate broke my heart, but at the same time I would've been disappointed if it didn't happen. He instigated so much evil and brutality in the name of survival that it only made sense for it to all come back to him.
Joel is something more than the words used to define him here. The rules of this world are different. Things like "Terrible", "Cruel" and "Ruthless" that mean negative things in our regular world are positive traits in this one. He is a Survivor. A fighter. And above all else he is something we rarely see in games. He is RELATABLE. Because he's a father. 🌸
He wasn't a terrible person before the outbreak or at least I don't think he was. Always makes me wonder how much the need to survive can change a person. Being a good person in that world will probably get you killed. In our world he's considered terrible but in that world maybe he's normal.
While I agree that Joel is not a good man I would like to point out that the fireflies are as bad if not worse in my opinion. Joel and Ellie have voluntarily traveled for months so that that they can help and have grown close as time and shared trauma tend to encourage. When they get there the fireflies keep Ellie in an induced coma so that they can kill her for a chance at a cure, they never give her an option. Ellie would likely have agreed based on what we know of her character and she is the only one who would have had a chance in talking down her surrogate father. The denial of that choice turns the fireflies into unforgivable child murderers and to me justifies Joel's actions against them.
I get where you're coming from but I'm fairly sure they didn't realise that she had to die until after she was unconscious and that still didn't give Joel the right to just kill everybody and take away her choice to choose as well.
@@iliyas6531 there is literally nothing stopping them from waking her up after they find out to allow her the choice. As to the amount of killing, the only person tou have to kill outside of cutscenes is the surgeon who will not be deterred from killing this kid, so 3 total
@@MCChibby What if she says no? Then what? Both parties are scared of the consequences. Both parties are scared of the answer thats why joel lied to her multiple times and thats why they didnt wake up ellie. Its hypocrisy at it finest and thats why people love the game. Because its soo human we are biased by nature to our own side.
@@slickstar96 If she says no they just kill her anyway, they have already shown they were willing to murder her. Letting her choose gives the opportunity for a yes and would have shown the decision was still hard for them, a last plea for absolution for what they feel they have to do. I still love the series it just makes the fireflies and the surgeon in particular look more like mustache twirling villains and less like a desperate militia trying to save humanity
@@MCChibby i understand what you're saying but i feel that then they dont have leg to stand on if she says no e.g jerry has a daughter abby he wants to go through with it to "save humanity" so calls ellie the "host" to not feel bad about the situation but if it was his own daughter no chance which is why he says nothing, because he knows he wouldnt be able to do himself once again, hypocrisy but soo human they wanted to believed and so stopped at nothing to believe anything that got in their way they dismiss it to further their cause as seen with the jerry and marlene scene
The whole p2 is the ending scene of p1 tenfold thats why people enjoy p2 no one is good no is bad they all are humans making decisions for their own cause.
I think the fact that Joel is such a crappy person makes him one of the most relatable characters i've ever played. He isn't a god like Kratos or some mythic character who does the right thing all the time just because the story demands it. He is human and he gives in to his humanity the same way I think so many of us would, and he suffers the consequences like many of us would too.
Actually Joel’s choice was the right one because if you listen to the recordings of the doctor it says “ we don’t know why her immune system isn’t reacting to the zombie virus” but the actual fact is that Ellie is infected with the right kind of mushroom because cordesyps A is bad and cordespys B is good so she has a different kind of mushroom also it’s not like you can cure the already infected
So Joel’s choice was the right one
i feel like terrible is a bit strong, he’s not a generic good guy, he’s flawed and real and he’s a hardened survivor. he’s probably the most realistic outcome of how a person changes to fit an apocalypse. in my mind, a terrible person or bad guy are the ones that torture, r*pe and killed in gangs, and whilst obviously it’s mentioned that Joel once ran with hunters, i doubt he was the worst of them and he definitely wouldn’t have r*ped anyone, and he stopped running with them for a reason. also i feel that most of the those terrible people in that world actually enjoy doing those awful things to survive and are sadistic, Joel does it cos he has to
*Part of Joel’s decision to save Ellie* wasn’t out of some “She deserves to live her life” ideology (Sure it was a huge factor of his decision making) but was mainly because *HE* couldn’t go back to living without a daughter figure - so he makes the decision to rob mankind of its last chance… because it robbed him of its daughter.
Joel is NOT a terrible person, he just does what he has to to protect the people he cares about and himself. Thats a GOOD person a MAN
I don't know if this makes me seem like a bad person, but I would do the same if not worse for my family.
Ellie never actually said "I want to die so a cure can be made"
If she did, youd have a point, but her life "meaning something" can have vastly different meanings depending on the person and context
Not many people expected Joel to live in the second game, myself included, but his death felt forced, and unsatisfying
That´s what he deserved tho.
I think tess would of completed the mission and handed her over, Joel's connection with Ellie is built upon his grief of losing his daughter (somthing as far as we are aware tess does not have experience with). Tess was happy to die in the hopes of a vaccine so I don't doubt she would of been fine with sacrificing Ellie once it came to it, that's what gives tess' death importance. Not only does Joel agree to do this mission as it was tess' last wish but the story would of been very different with her in it to the end
One thing I think they did wrong in the show was when Ellie shot a guy, and Joel told her that she was too young. Not that itself, that it very like the game, but they make killing people a sensitive topic for Joel, which isn't really in the game. In the game, he obviously doesn't like killing, but he doesn't really mind at all. Like when Tess shot Robert, neither of them batted an eyelash and just moved on joking about his dead body to Marlene.
Joel mad survivor instinct kept him alive throughout the apocalypse
The games do suggest that between 2013 and 2033 Joel did a lot of terrible things. Loss and experience, within a crumbling world, led him to dark places. Necessity was a factor as well when you consider the Cordyceps pandemic, and all the fun things associated therein. However, I don't think being shaped by your reality means you are a terrible person. Ellie gave him a reason, something to fight for, and Jackson gave him a place or chance for redemption. All signs indicate he was a respected member of the Jackson community. Absent assassination he could have lived for many more years and found further redemption.
The idea that Joel is wrong or selfish or bad for saving Ellie is false. He is in the right. Ellie has a right to her opinion, but she's wrong, her life means something by living as long as possible. Dina, Cat, Jessie, everyone she interacts with in Jackson has had their lives improved by her presence and her life improved by their presence in hers.
Karmically speaking, he deserved death for what he did from 2013-33, not for saving Ellie. Joel deserved to live for saving Ellie.
I like Abby, but when your dad wants to kill a 14 year old girl he deserves what he gets.
I like Joel because he's a terrible man, he's not some savior just because he's main character. He's down to earth and does bad things in necessity. He was good guy before, but the way things have worked out he became bad. And I understand his action in Salt lake, later double downs saying he'd do that again. He even faces death like a badass
First, in the world of "The Last of Us," there are no good or bad people, only survivors. Joel did what he thought was necessary to save his daughter, who would have died needlessly. Second, fireflies are idiots, especially the doctor. instead of extracting the spinal fluid, which is full of fungal spores, and then growing the fungus to see what strain it is. I am 99% sure that it is a benign strain because there are over a million different strains, so it is possible that the benign strain evolved alongside the aggressive one and her immunity is the result of the benign fungus releasing chemicals that kill all other strains.
abby's face when tommy says, "i'm tommy, this is joel." fucking goosebumps.
I disagree on calling Joel a "terrible person". Yeah he has done some brutal things, but it was to survive in a cruel and unforgiving world. He had to harden in a world that changed fast. But deep down Joel is still a good man. You didn't see him eating people or r*ping little girls like David and his people were implied to do in Part 1. There being actual true monsters out there that werent the infected. And honestly the cure wasnt a 100% guarantee. Plus even if the cure worked, the world was too far gone at that point. To you really think groups were all come a unanimous agreement to rebuild society? I doubt, that cure would be used a bargaining device and there would be power struggles. Plus there probably would be factions that prefer the way the world is and wont want to conform to any sense of law and order.
The thing that I dislike about The Last of Us Part 2 isn't the fact that Joel died, but the way he died. Joel is portrayed as a very cautious person, so the way he lets his guard down when he meets Abby's group is out of character. With the experience Joel has, he should have known very well that multiple people would come after him. The writers should have put more thought into how to execute his death.
Joel is what any of us would become. In a world like that, it’s all about survival. If I’m starving or thirsty, then why would I not try to steal water and food? If people are trying to kill me, why would I not fight with everything I have to survive? That’s just human instinct for survival. And yes, anyone would take their anger out on people that are trying to kill them. Was Joel more brutal than he needed to be at some points? Absolutely!
He’s no different than Rick Grimes
Joel is easily my favorite video game character, he is so insanely nuanced and I love how TLOU2 basically challenged most peoples views on him
I would love to see an analysis for some of the other characters as well
Joel’s death was a productive death. Like Brock in ragnarok. It pushed all story things forward, pushed kratos to choose war.
Well most ppl feel like they'd sacrifice everything including other people to save someone they love. Joel did that
He’s not a terrible person but he’s most definitely flawed. Like us all
I don't see Joel as a terrible person and most people who says he is are being very unrealistic! Joel did not go around killing innocent people but those who presented danger or as a threat to him or his loved ones but also his mission (jobs). Joel is easily misunderstood by those who hasn't put themselves in his shoes! What if Sarah lived and was the one that was immune and sought after to bring a cure at the expense of her life, Joel would not have given her up. So, Joel seeing Ellie as his daughter made it just as difficult to give her up as it would have been for him to give up Sarah! This doesn't make him a terrible person, it makes him realistic and human! It's normal for a parent to protect their child at any cost, so anyone who thinks Joel is terrible for his actions in TLOU Pt. 1 are not being true to themselves. So, put yourself in Joel's shoes knowing you're about to lose your child to potential save a humanity that's also already past the point of being saved......... What would you really do in those shoes?
I still don't understand why your channel isn't bigger.I rarely comment on videos but i felt like i had to on this one.I know about your channel for a couple months now, and i like your videos, especially The Walking Dead ones.They are amazing, and i can see that you always put effort in all of your videos.This video is also great, and i would like to see more The Last Of Us videos from you :)
I appreciate comments like this greatly my friend. I do put a lot of work in making these videos and I had a really good time putting this one together! Definitely more on the way and nice to hear they are appreciated!
Joel was just a father doing everything he could to protect his child no matter what the cost
But he still killed people in cold blood he coulda let the surgeons live but he killed them anyways
A lot of things are correct here except for calling him blood thirsty. I think he is comfortable killing if that is the way he sees tomorrow. He doesn’t seeking killing.
If you were to survive 20+ years into a zombie apocalypse, odds are you probably had to do some things that would land you multiple lifetime sentences in normal society. The standard for morality is completely different and in many cases the situation becomes “kill or be killed”. You would have a select few people that you care about and trust while the others are your enemies/obstacles and need to be treated accordingly. That’s why no one that survives that long in a situation like that could possibly be considered “a good person”. Joel is a perfect example of how the toll of just trying to survive in an apocalyptic situation can do to someone for decades. However, his humanity still is in there and it’s brought out with the connections he makes with other people. His loyalty and unconditional love that he shows for the people he cares about are enough to make him human in an inhumane world.
Love Joel as a character not because he's a good person but a believable person. He doesn't drift from his beliefs but sticks to them. He only cared about family be it blood or not. His character in the first game was perfect and im still kinda pissed about the second game. I get that he was old and everything in the second game but Joel was still strong and could probably kill everyone in that room of course he got shot in the knee. The thing im really pissed about tho is that Ellie didn't shoot through the door to save Joel, she saw that he was being killed and didn't end everyone inside. I know it would have cut the story short but I think thats how that room scene would have gone if they played by the characters instead of a script.
Honestly though if we think about it regardless if Joel saved Ellie or not there is no damn way that killing Ellie would’ve had a good outcome
The truth is that almost anyone would have done what Joel did in response to what the Fireflies were going to do, harvest a young girl for a cure that was more than likely to fail and without even telling her she would have to die for it to happen. The Fireflies were terrible and deserved their downfall.
my father is a quiet and calm man, he is the type that will show sadness or angry only if its REALLY bad. he is also the only family member i have a good bond with (whole story) because of that i always feel strongly about father figures in media, and why joel's death, though it was expected and made sense, still really hit. which meant my dad ended up asking why i was crying haha.
i kept on playing, because i love the last of us and pain like this is part of that world as much as it is ours. (i also tend to apreciate a good media-induced cry, just means the story was good enough to hit were it wanted to hit) joel's death was a consequence of his choices, something that no one should have to make.
Oh Man this was an amazing video. I think Joel is one of the best characters ever. Maybe you should do the same about Ellie. Her story in Part 2 is also great.
My problem with TLOU Pt 2, if I may borrow some words from Father MoisCr1TiKaL himself, is it feels like Pt 2's story was told out of order.
Joel deserved to suffer the consequences of his actions in Pt 1, I think most people can agree with that. He shouldn't have gotten away scot-free for what he did to the fireflies. It made sense for him to die. My problem with the story is the way they structured it. When opening up the game, our introduction to Abby is just some random girl who kills Joel for some unknown reason. The game doesn't even tell us that Joel killed her father until, like, 10 hours in. If you played Pt 1, and then immediately went into Pt 2 blind while not knowing anything about it, it's hard to fault the player for feeling anything but hatred towards Abby because the game doesn't even tell us anything about her until we have to play as her. I felt nothing for Abby throughout most of the game because I didn't see her as anything more than just "The girl who killed Joel", and even if that was the point, even if it's meant to mirror how she knew nothing about Joel until her father was killed by him, it matters that this information is communicated to THE PLAYER first and foremost. If the whole point of the game was to make the player feel empathy for Abby, they should've contextualized her as a victim of Joel's FireFly rampage at the BEGINNING of the game.
My real issue with Pt 2's story as a whole is that the entire narrative of the game is "revenge is bad", and I will admit that they got that message across, but that doesn't mean they made an enjoyable story. It was interesting seeing how even after Joel and Ellie's relationship was soured once she found out the truth, she still loved and cared for him even if she didn't show it. She obviously cared enough to go on a massive rampage to avenge him. It almost mirrors Joel's rampage at the end of Pt 1 to save Ellie. Here's where the 2 games diverge. Pt 1 is a game full of random NPCs who you're not supposed to think twice about killing. Pt 2 actually gives names and plot importance to the characters who you kill, but you don't even remember who they are half the time. It's like, "Wow, I just killed a pregnant lady. Too bad I don't remember who she was." And I didn't remember who she was, I didn't even remember her name, because she wasn't an important enough character to ME as a player to warrant caring about her at all. Why do the game designers expect you to care about a bunch of random NPCs, when they don't even develop them as characters until they're already dead? By the time you've learned more about them, their significance to you as a player is long gone because they already died. When these characters die, your reaction is either "Oh yeah, that person." Or "Wait, who was that again?" Like I said, if they wanted us to feel empathy for these characters, they should've developed them BEFORE they died!
Do you want an example of a character they killed off that we actually DID care about because they were a significantly developed, and important character to US as players leading up to their death? His name is Joel Miller.
They killed Joel, and we cared. They killed Abby's friends, and we didn't care. There's a good reason for that. It's because Joel was developed. We learned who he was throughout the course of the 1st game. The whole point of the 1st game is seeing a stone-cold survivor re-learning how to love someone in a way he thought he had lost long ago. You can't just take that away, and replace it with NOTHING. And that's why to me, The Last Of Us Part 2 is a "nothing" game. I felt nothing when killing Abby's friends. I felt nothing when Abby's father died. I felt nothing when the pregnant lady died. In the end, this game has nothing to offer, but everything to take. Joel's death was not a mistake, but everything else story-wise was.
For me the “aha” moment was playing as Abby when aI suddenly realized “oh shit! WE are the bad guys!!!” The more we know about Abby’s story the less Joel and Ellie’s crusade makes sense. It shows how a parent can pass on their worst qualities to their kids. The greatest games I’ve ever played hands down and a tie with Blade Runner for my fav story.
about parents passing on their worst qualities to their kids: joel indirectly taught ellie to deal with grief by ignoring it and trying to forget it. joel told ellie not to bring up tess after she died and as far as we know they never talked about the people who died in the first game. this made ellie do the same for joel after his death, but as it's an unhealthy way to deal with grief, it never worked
I thought the 'aha' moment came when Ellie was singing to Dina in the music store 😎
@@ellatt6691 oh shit, that was good. 💀
@@ellatt6691 not really an “aha” moment, but very heartwarming. A nice reminder that despite the status of this world, it’s not all bad.
I also love the convo before it.
“What was that?”
“Oh, nothing.”
“Well, nothing sure sounds nice.”
Biggest thing About Joel ,Not Saying He Didn’t Earn It But His Death Just Seem Rushed , If Them Getting Ambushed In The Beginning Results in Them 3 Back in town , Abbie see a whole Nother side of Joel , probably still try an kill him but give Ellie the role of being the only one to stop her even tho she still got issues with
Joel , plus probably gain respect & Perspective for him being separated from her team maybe even
Have Him Sacrifice Himself for Ellie an Abbie then let they issue play out , He was Selfish But he Like that friend u wanna look out for who u can Relate to
I found it weird that this man we’re shown has severe trust issues in part 1 just suddenly ok with walking into a room completely unarmed with strangers. You kinda have to show that big of development otherwise it feels cheap. Like when did he get over these issues (especially given the end of 1)? How did he learn to trust people? We don’t get any of it.
Right…Even if part 3 is a prequel an we play as Joel if his character an demeanor isn’t right … idk
Man TLOU 2 is my favourite out of the 2.
I was new to the series and bought both of them at the same time and played them back to back and need to say the 2nd is by far not just better in game play and setting. But the over all story is great. Joel needed to die for the story to have a meaning. Abby is a great character and her motives make sense. Ellie's motives make sense. They both didn't get to say goodbye to their fathers/father figures due to the cost of one another. Yes it's a revenge story but there's so much more involved in it.
Fed up of people saying he didnt deserve what came to him, I absolutely love his character and would never want to see him die but he did deserve it.
I’m fed up of people too but also of people acting like him dying came completely out of left field. the fact some people seemed completely blown away by the idea that Joel would die surprised me more than his fate itself did. I love his character too, don’t get me wrong though
Hey this is how I feel about him. He's my favorite fictional character but everyone gets him twisted. Especially after tlou 2. People treat him like a hero or a good person. He's closer to a villain than a hero, especially after what he did in 1. I really like Abby and I only like her because I like Joel so much.
Joel isn’t bad because the FireFlies actually did experiment with people who were immune but ALL failed. I’m not talking about a few people, more like in the tens if not hundreds. All without any show of a vaccine. Joel did what was right and saved Ellie from a pointless death.
Joel only ever defending himself other then the hospital which he still technically defending himself
He’s got the attitude to survive in extreme conditions. But that’s how you get shit done.
Joel's last thoughts were "i wish this game had better writing"
Actually they were "Man... this really is just like Jurassic Park 2"
it’s impossible to make a cure for a fungal infection
😂😂😂
Well since one will most likely be made at some point in the series it will be funny to see this one disproven.
@@prioban realistically he's not wrong. the fireflies were trying for, specifically, a vaccine to cure it, and vaccines aren't used to cure fungal infections, they're used for viruses. either, the writers are stupid or the fireflies are.
@@acunt video game logic and real life logic are two different things
Neil Druckmann stated that the cure would have worked... just like a couple bandages on the arm in the game can completely heal a shotgun blast to the chest. The game is grounded in reality, but has many fictional parts
Something people dont get is that Joel isnt inherently selfish. He is selfless when it comes to his loved ones. But also selfish to those who arent his loved ones, and could possibly harm those who he loves
The problem with this is that yeah he stopped the doctors from killing Ellie but killing her was the worst thing to do to “try and find a cure” and the fireflies didn’t even give him what they agreed on in the first place for taking Ellie there :/
Loved this vid! Would love a Marlene, Ellie or Abby anslysis!
Honestly, I wish we’d get a midquel from Jesse’s perspective
I was a joel defender.....ugh...i hate to say it,but you might have turned me. The narrative makes sense. That being said,ellie suffered so much in part 2. The last of us 3 at least needs to give her a happy ending. Joels only legacy.
He truthfully isn’t even that “terrible” of a person. He is arguably what most people would turn into in a time like that. But I do agree playing as a character who has or does terrible things does make the character more interesting as you try to figure out the reasonings for his dark turn. Other than the fact ya know, he lost his daughter.
Let me guess… another “Abby good / Joel bad” video ?
'Video Essay'
>proceeds to summarize the game
should just be titled Last of Us part 1 Summary
The summary definitely went overboard, much longer than anticipated. Will fix that in future videos.
Here's my hot take. Joel's only a "terrible person" if:
1. You look at him from a lens that sees the fireflies as a selfless group people who just wanted to create a cure for humanity.
2. If you judge him by our standards and disregard all the context behind his demeanor.
I can never see Joel as a terrible person. Sure he has his terrible takes and awful moments but who doesn't? Is anyone here even confident enough to say that they've never lashed out at a sibling/made a selfish choice? Besides, what kind of terrible person fulfills a dead person's wish when that said dead person has no way of verifying if they even did what they were asked for nor do they gain anything from it?I've also never seen a terrible person be so thoughtful of the people they've become close to. Normally, terrible people only use the people around them for their own benefit. I've also never seen terrible people be good parents to their kids and Sarah seemed to really adore Joel. I just find it odd to label Joel a terrible man for things he ends up doing in the APOCALYPSE all while discrediting the consistent signs of him being an overall good person simply because they're not big enough to seem remarkable. Examples of these are:
- Compromising for the people he's with so long as it's attainable (ex. following Tess' orders, giving into Ellie's wishes after their big fight at the ranch, giving Ellie a gun and admitting he was wrong, Giving Sam and Henry a chance after Ellie convices him- and that happened TWICE)
- Being thoughtful to Ellie by consistently thinking about her safety- sometimes even endangering his own just to do so (Refusing to jump off the bridge cause Ellie can't swim, getting the gun despite being shot at by Henry, Fighting an entire hospital just to save Ellie)
- Reassuring Ellie that the fireflies aren't going to hurt her despite not actually knowing what's going to happen
- Putting Ellie first (ex. asking Marlene to find another way, wanting to see Ellie right after waking up)
- Leaving the bandit life for a smuggler one when it seems like a harder job since he was living under fedra doing illegal sht that could get him outnumbered and killed easily. As a bandit, he wouldn't have had to deal with that since they're mostly in packs/groups and lived in places that were run by their own group.
- Using the torture method ONLY when NECESSARY (ex. when he needs info) and immediately ending it once he gets what he needed (unlike Abby who canonically tortures to relieve stress/anger).
- Having the capability to admit his faults and feel guilty about it
All these things, in my opinion, are good enough reason for me to believe that Joel is not and was never a terrible person. Just a normal guy who was pushed to do terrible things to survive.
Looking forward to the next one: why Abby is a terrible person and a terrible character. 😂
Why is she a "terrible character''?
@@b.u.l.1734 probably because when informed about Dina being pregnant, she says "good". She enjoys killing pregnant women.
@@thorthewolf8801 She says that because she just found Mel's corpse (another pregnant woman) and thinks Ellie & co. killed her without any remorse. She's blinded by rage. An "eye for an eye" type of mentality.
If she truly "enjoys killing pregnant women", she would have killed Dina regardless of Lev's intervention 😂.
@@b.u.l.1734 But she never cared about Mel. In most scenes they were together they were arguing with each other. Besides, Abby was a homewrecker, she seduced Mels babys father. When she finds their dead bodies, she doesnt even acknowledge her.
Yes, she only stopped because of Lev. Great!
@@thorthewolf8801 I mean... yeah, it's actually a great thing what she does.
Would you spare the person who killed your lover and all your friends? That's a pretty comendable thing for a person who is supposedly "terrible". Just saying... 🤷
I wouldn't really say he's a terrible person overall, but he has done terrible things. He's also done noble things. He's a classic anti-hero.
personal hot take: Joel’s death, while tragic, kept in with the first games lessons. The apocalypse is a harsh, unforgiving place, and you have to be hard to see yourself and loved ones live through it.
My argument about the ending of the first game is that they play tested it with two groups. One wasn’t a parent and chose to have Ellie 50% of the time and the other group was parents and chose to save Ellie 100% of the time and there was never a question l. Thats why the game developers choose to save her. He is a parent, he was Sarah’s parent and now Ellies it is what any parent would do.