“I trust that our listeners have done their due diligence in studiously avoiding all mention or sign of this news story” Dan I’ve been looking forward to this story so much this past week I have in fact subconsciously made myself forget all about it!
Dan is 100% percent correct in his assessment that Avatar did not captivate a generation the way Star Wars did. I will take a step further and say Avatar is more or less like a firework, ephemeral beauty that isnt' solid. (At least for the first Avatar) It felt like more people were interested in the background story and the process of how the movie was made than in the actual movie itself.
Would love to see Brandon's take on Andor because I saw a lot of parallels with it and Mistborn. Mistborn is a fantasy heist against an evil empire and Andor starts as a star wars heist against an evil empire. The prison arc gave me some bridge 4 vibes from Stormlight. I also don't think liking or hating Rogue One relates to whether or not you would like or hate Andor.
I appreciate Dan’s explanation of why he doesn’t like Andor, especially about how if he sat down with someone such as myself who loves the show, we would probably say the same things on which actors were incredible, which sequences were a little long, etc. even though I love the show a ton, I can see myself agreeing with him on those points. Very good explanation and thanks for finally giving us some more of your thoughts on it.
i feel like im taking crazy pills here - . if you like the show, and he doesn't, there are clearly things you *dont* agree on. highlighting that there are probably many things you have in common with the show is not an "explanation of why he doesn't like andor" - in fact, it's almost the opposite! very frustrating and strange, like just dig in and tell us man. i can only assume this is a religious/moral issue with how guarded he acts about it.
@@ifuckinglovenurdrage I don’t think so. I think he is not wanting to talk specifics until Brandon has seen it. I am his same religion and I can’t see anything that he would be unhappy with. Like he said, he loved most of it until the very end. I’m guessing that he doesn’t like how morally grey Luthen is, or perhaps he didn’t like the battle at the end of the last episode. He mentioned that he likes Star Wars to be campy and Andor changes that a lot, making the Empire more understandable and the Rebels not as heroic. Andor also gives a lot more meaning to death, whereas in normal Star Wars people either never die or millions of Storm Troopers die and nobody cares. I’m guessing that those are his issues but he won’t talk about it until Brandon has seen it. In regards to us agreeing about most things, I think he would agree with me that the show is well written, that the acting is great, that the shots are beautiful, etc, it just isn’t the type of show that he enjoys to watch. He said that he knows that it is good as a work of art, but that is different than enjoying it.
@@Panamaniac3D Yeah I agree I think he likes thinking of the rebels as the good guys and the empire as the bad guys which Andor does show some of. I think the whole "the ends justify the means" attitude is part of Dans issue with the rebels though and paints them more like the empire than he likes, even if its compelling it ruins his image of the rebels. I think it's similar to how I feel about Luke in episode 8, even if it is a compelling story or interesting take it ruins my image of Uncorruptable Jedi Knight Luke from episode 6.
@@Panamaniac3D original Star Wars isn’t campy and the modern trend making things morally grey and realistic is both nihilistic and lacking in imagination.
@@ifuckinglovenurdrage I have no moral complaints about the show, I just didn't enjoy it, and I don't see any value in sharing my thoughts on why because it feels like pooping on a thing that a lot of people love. I prefer to recommend things I love rather than bash things I dislike. But, if you insist: I liked maybe five of the episodes, but found most of it to be poorly-paced and dull. Some of the side characters are fantastic (I literally started watching Killing Eve just because of how much I liked Fiona Shaw in Andor, and I would watch that cranky Imperial Intelligence guy in literally anything), but others--particularly Andor himself--were wooden and bland. The production design was great, but I'd prefer to watch something interesting while admiring sets and costumes. Overall it was a pretty boring slog that had very little to say and ended up going nowhere; that's why the last episode turned me off so hard, because they cut a lot of narrative corners for not much payoff. I hear "it's the most mature Star Wars series" a lot, and sure, I guess, but that's an extremely low bar, and compared to any number of other political or espionage dramas (Slow Horses, Tehran, etc.) I found it facile and superficial. A Child's Treasury of Espionage Cliches, that seems to treat "joyless" and "important" as synonyms. But I also recognize that a lot of people found things in it that I didn't, and that's okay. We're both right. I'm not trying to convince anyone not to like it, because people like different things. Like what you want to like. In the spirit of recommending rather than bashing, here's a list of shows I've watched in 2022 and adored: Slow Horses, Tehran, Russian Doll, Reservation Dogs, The Crown, and of course what might be my favorite show of all time: Derry Girls.
That entire food heist checks out so hard. I'm from the area, and I find this accurate and hilarious. Locking carts? Yup. Shady meat practices? Yeah, I could see it. Am I still going to all my fave restaurants/diners in the area when I go to visit family? Absolutely.
Thank you for this discussion! So much of online culture seems to be focused on bashing things and making people feel self-conscious for liking things. That is the main reason why I keep my art preferences to myself online.
Oh no, you like the thing! Did you not know that Thing Bad? You must be uncultured swine for liking Thing Bad. I bet you've never seen Thing Good, it is so much better than Thing Bad. I am better than you.
The Irony that Star Wars is immediately better with Rogue One and Andor in it for me, whilst it somehow ruins the consequence free fun of it all for Sanderson, is odd. I never saw it as consequence free fun and anything that pushed us in that direction was always worse to me. I prefer deeper character development and consequences. Andor is amazing!
Ironically for me, Andor did the exact inverse of what Brandon said Rogue One did for him. Andor makes Star Wars feel like a real place again. A place where people live, love, and work. A world that exists not just as a background for a fun action scene. To me, Andor lets me buy back in to The Star Wars Universe and elevates all the other material.
those shopping carts have been around since like 2005 - a new built supermarket near my college campus had them back then. The shopping carts from other stores would be consistantly stolen and taken to apartment complexes.
OK so locking wheel shopping carts have been around since the 60s. There's a row of magnets under the ground/pavement at the edge of the parking lot that trips a mechanism in the wheel that pushes a metal rod through a hole in the rear wheels when they pass over the magnets. I think there are more modern computer based ones too but I think walmarts use the magnetic line method still.
I remember in an episode where Dan asked if he could decorate the background of his side with his own things and you guys agreed. It's been a long time and the background still hasn't changed. Did something happen behind the scenes to prevent that? I really wanted to see Dan's decorations. Still waiting. Thank you.
Plot twist: Dan has decorated his side. He simply happens to have the same stuff as Brandon, and really just wanted the mental comfort of knowing that it was HIS stuff around him.
Helloooo! I watched Avatar in my formative years and its safe to say that it has shaped me as a person! I consider the depth of the story and the "what's going to happen to this character" to not be surrounding Jake or Neytiri but to be about Eywa and Pandora. I want to know what happens to them!!! Basically the film shaped one of my core values... the world... and I'm studying engineering to help save it from our (humanities) mistakes 🤷♀️ It's what I'm dedicating my life to.
I think this has to be my favourite episode of IB. Your earnest and enthusiastic opinions about art - with the nuances we'd expect, coming from artists - were so compelling. It's not a perfect podcast episode, but...
I love Avatar. I was a sophomore in high school when it came out and still love it at 30 yrs old. Pandora in florida is a dream come true. The second movie is even more amazing and has a bit more depth to its storyline. Avatar moved me like no other movie has in my life. I understand why others don't love it, but I connect with it. It is a light story in the first one, but it has a great message. The experience also drew me in, like Dan said. I had no expectations going into Avatar and came away completely fulfilled. There are many factors why each person enjoys something different, and I believe age, like Brandon said, does have some influence on our enjoyment. I love this podcast and these two amazing authors! Thanks for being a great example of how to discuss differences in a healthy and non-judgemental way. I look forward to the next episode!
I live in Maryland, and all of our grocery stores have wheel locking shopping carts. Otherwise people in this area steal them, play with them, and dump them once they are wrecked. Since shopping carts are surprisingly expensive, the wheel lock systems pay for themselves pretty quickly.
I think I enjoyed Andor so much because it had a lot to say about real life and it said it very well. We already know how this is going to end because of Rogue One, but I am so excited for the next season. I’ve seen so many people mention how they’re surprised that Disney released this, but they kinda addressed this in the show. They’re not listening because they don’t have to.
I love your friendship so much 😂 I actually have the same wacky tastes as my father in law…my husband thinks we’re nuts. We’re always riffing quotes from old movies and cartoons. My husband just shakes his head, but I think it’s good…I introduced him to stuff and likewise he has too! I’ve felt the fear of being the one who likes something the majority doesn’t…but now it’s just more fun to find new things to like from everyone around me.🤷🏻♀️ (or not. Lol)
What a great discussion! I loved the ways that you drew the lines and illuminated the differences between appreciating something, liking something, and the quality of that thing. Your insights as creators of art were very valuable. The internet is where nuance goes to get trolled and doxed, but I believe that this is MY favorite episode of your podcast.
1:52 Yes, shopping carts lock when outside of a certain range. It has screwed me over on a couple occasions. We've had it around here for at least 10 years. Another interesting shopping cart thing: At big local mall (Metrotown in Burnaby BC), just in front of the Superstore, there are these escalators that come up from the underground parking, but they're not the stair style escalators, just a diagonal conveyor belt that has the same sort of metal slatted appearance of escalators. Getting shopping carts up and down this has been a problem, because if you have a particularly heavy cart, you really have to brace yourself from the bottom to make sure it doesnt roll down and take out everyone along the way. Strike, ten points. I once helped an elderly lady who would have had a serious problem managing that - worst thing that happened was that her lil dog rolled off of the cart, poor lil fella. He was fine though. Anyway, just the other day, they implemented this thing that seems to magnet the cart's wheels in place on those escalators so they don't roll down. I have no idea what changed, or if it was just broken for a long time. But it's neat, and probably should have been fixed right away if it was broken. 😅😅 It went for at least a year of me shopping there with carts being an issue.
I am glad Dan talked about this show and why he didn’t like it, I also understand if Brandon doesn’t end up watching it. However I really do hope Brandon gives it a watch. As a listener since the beginning of this podcast, and a massive Star Wars fan, the reason I wanted the two of them to see the show is because I believed that Brandon and Dan have the same issues with current star was as I do. If you are a Star Wars fan, I think that Andor is a brilliantly made show in that universe. It also lacks all of the things that have disillusioned me from Star Wars in recent years.
As someone who has a Walmart with wheels that lock up, I believe it is done with magnetic in the ground. Although I live in Canada and usually snow is the best shopping cart theft protection.
I was right at that perfect age when Avatar came out to latch onto the IP. I think what Dan said rings true. Loved it as a kid, saw it 3 times nearly back to back full 3D experience, played the game, but barely remember the story. In contrast I love Star Wars lore and world building. I didn't have such a strong tie to the Star Wars characters as others I think so when the new trilogy came out I thought it was cool that more planets, set design, and star warsy items were put out. Didn't really care how they handled Luke or if they rehashed past stories or not.
People can’t control what they like or dislike. You either do or don’t. There is nothing wrong with you if you do/don’t like something that someone else does/doesn’t like. You can study something and learn to appreciate it. You can also start/stop liking something as you change and get older (or even as your mood or circumstances change) but you’re still not in control of that. Liking is a visceral reaction. So sit back, relax and just like what you like.
You can kinda control it. On the positive side, taste can be acquired and refined; on the negative side, you can convince yourself to like something you actually don't, or convince yourself to dislike something you do. If you deliberately immerse yourself in certain cultural contexts and pick up different value systems, then different narratives and artistic choices are going to appeal to you. It's not cut-and-dried cause-and-effect or anything, but it's also not a purely intrinsic thing the way you're trying to say.
This podcast (and the lecture content on your channel) has unironically helped me a great deal as I’ve focused on learning the basics of story telling and built the structure that suits how my brain works. I always return to your content when I figure something out or feel like I’ve “unlocked” some perspective on building in order to feel if I’m on the right track. Love everything that you bring to storytelling, Brandon! Thanks for your indirect influence and inspiration.
i watched avatar when i was 19 loved it. the main reason it didn't obsessed me the way star wars obsessed you is that there were very few supplemental material. star wars had comics and novel almost immediately and the sequel came out 3 years latter.
This! I think people forget that Star Wars or Star Trek had a constant influx of material in several mediums after their debut. Meanwhile, for Avatar there was just one film, for 13 years. It seems weird to compare those two different scenarios, so much.
I felt very similar when I got to the end of Andor. Everything was really well done and I enjoyed the individual episodes, but I got to the end and felt something was missing.
I can appreciate Brandon’s take on Star Wars and how the new material is radically different in tone and in how seriously it takes itself. Despite the fact that it wasn’t the intent of the franchise back in the 70s and 80s, it works well for me in the case of recent additions like Rogue One and Andor because like real life, the good v evil story actually has layers and depth to it. A New Hope is a veneer over a more complex and nuanced story that includes the flawed individuals in Rogue One, and Andor shows that not all imperials had the same outlook on individuality. I guess I’m in the target audience.
When I went to the world of Avatar it was packed to the gills, and this was a few years after the park opened. Got there early in the morning, made a B line to flight of passage, and waited three hours. Also I loved avatar when I was a kid and when I grew up I thought it sucked but was still fun
Thanks so much for your explanations, I really loved this episode - not that we were “owed” anything, but because it opened my mind about the difference between appreciating and liking. I can now understand why Brandon doesn’t like R1, because I’ve had similar experiences with other things that people have liked…one thing turned me off and it was game over. The older I’ve gotten the more willing I am to abandon a media item if I don’t like. I know that can potentially rob me of things that are great “later on”…how many times have we hated something first go around, but then absolutely loved years later? This happened to me with School of Rock. Hated it at first. But several years later, loved it…it’s a rare movie I’ll re-watch. There’s so much media surrounding us…it’s okay to be more discerning and picky. While media volume has grown immensely, the amount of time I have to enjoy it has declined, and God won’t give me more time, so I have to be more choosy. :)
Could you guys discuss - doesn’t have to be an entire episode - StarCraft or other games you enjoyed playing in college? Strategies that were fun or effective, etc. - ?
Most people have a complex and weird relationship with melodrama. Titanic is really a melodrama on the backdrop of the ship sinking. Avatar is really a lightweight turning native story ala Dances with Wolves which is also a kind of melodrama. So people think that has to be 'bad' or 'childish' because it doesn't seem new or complex.
I mean, people also often get annoyed if a story has its themes with the subtly of hitting you on the head with a hammer. That was certainly Avatar. I even overall agree with a lot of its "themes", but they felt like: MILITARY BAD! ECOLOGY GOOD! COLONIALISM BAD! Theoretically interesting points to make, but when made with such a lack of subtly -- it's hard to not roll your eyes and say WTF.
I love that you guys had this discussion! Fascinating stuff! I think I was just caught off guard by Dan disliking Andor because the show seems right up his alley with the more dynamic morals and gritty setting. But it's very fair to have your own opinions. :) I adored Andor personally even though I don't typically love darker stories
My favorite episode so far I think. Very interesting to think back on things I enjoyed and others didn't, or vice versa, and try and understand why I felt the way I did about those things.
I accept that everyone has their own tastes and reasons for likes and dislikes. Having said that, this is a podcast. I don't listen to it just to hear that you weren't fond of something. I want to hear why, that's the interesting part. That's why I listen in. It's the perspective. I have learned it's human nature to just assume someone's motivations, or thought processes, for their beliefs/opinions. Which is why I like hearing Brandon's takes on various subjects. The vast majority of the time. He can thoroughly, and concisely explain his perspective and tastes. I think this works very well for the format of the podcast. Dan sometimes does. Which is fine, he doesn't owe viewers a perfectly worded well thought out reason for his perspective/reasoning. But I am fairly certain that most will be disappointed. That's what a lot of viewership wants to hear.
Titanic is my favorite movie! It’s a perfect romantic adventure movie turned tragic horror and the pacing, characters, score, visuals hit all the marks!
I talk of my love of Avatar the way my mom talks about how much she loves star wars. I was 11 when the first one came out, I've seen the 2nd one in twice now, considering a third theater trip. I can clearly see the ways in which Avatar has had a major impact on the other art that I love now. But as far as an entire generation feeling this way, none of my similarly aged friends agree that Avatar was a formative art experience for them.
I believe this happened because, for a long time, there was just one Avatar film. That's it. Meanwhile, other stories like Star Wars, Star Trek, and many others had a constant influx of content for decades after their debut.
@@glass12 I think you hit on the key point. If there was an avatar movie every 3-4 years for a decade, people would remember and be impacted by it much more.
Great job! This was the first episode that I found engaging enough to listen to all the way through. I think it's because your conversation didn't meander as much. The stuff you guys said about art really resonated with me.
Great episode. Also, I don't prefer all of Brandon's books. But I enjoy a number of them. Good, bad, popular--these are often also viewed through the lens of time (and timing). Quite a few artists and writers have been panned during life and very popular after they died. The odd truth is that there many things out there which people could enjoy, but only when the stars align do we get popular and notable works. Yet even then, few things are timeless. Enjoyment itself is often only for the moment or (at best) a while. Few things persist, last a lifetime, or become timeless, transcendent works. The size of the world we live in (and the number of years elapsed) has put each thing into a smaller and smaller place in history. There's little reason to get caught up in good and bad--because time marches on, and people produce new things...and nothing is perfect. The best way to approach likes and dislikes is as a means to navigate ourselves towards future things that we can enjoy. We should use our past decisions and experiences to inform our futures and not worry about "who likes what". Life is simply too short to get overly attached to any art. Instead, thinking about the future and making something else (iterating!) is the wiser way to live.
Today I learned I’m probably a significantly worse person than Brandon because I actually kind of enjoy thinking about the things pulpy sci-fi/fantasy stories gloss over, in a sort of, “That’s horrible/that’s hilarious” kinda way. But I also grew up watching Robot Chicken’s early seasons (up to the first Star Wars special) which…yeah
I worked for Walmart for 13 years. Walmarts in bigger cities and high theft areas have shopping carts with locks on the wheels that automatically lock when they get a certain distance from the store to deter people from stealing the carts. Most smaller town Walmarts don't have them.
I was super curious why Dan didn't like andor. Then to have this discussion of the relationship between fans and Podcaster is 🔥. Thanks for such nerdy talks 😃
Love it when people distinguish between enjoying and appreciating something. For my it’s film noire; I have never actively enjoyed a noire movie, show, book, etc (and I’ve done some of “the greats”) because it for some reason just doesn’t hit me right. But in the same vein I can clearly say that Chinatown is a work of art, that I appreciate having watched, but did not actively enjoy
I can appreciate that the Godfather is a perfect movie. Acting, cinematography, dialogue, music, all that. But I just don't like the films, I just can't get behind the mobster stuff.
Avatar is my favourite film of all time and im 30 years old. It hit me. Under the surface is ecological message that told in all ways you noticed and not noticed. Film and James Cameron himself inspired me to become vegan and be ecological volunteer. Story might be simple but it designed that way as "trojan horse" to talk about "tree-hugging" stuff Cameron is interested in. I think people who have one of the deepest appreciations for Avatar have nature and ecology as their high value as do i. We are loosing nature and have nature deficit disorder and according to Jim interviews, that i watch and read a lot of, Avatar is inspiration for sustainability, ecology and guardianship for nature. It does not tell you what to do or what vote for, but it tries to inspire and it inspires me. P.S. Again don't listen to haters, backlash for Titanic from toxic minority swaped many people and now that people are having backlash for backlash and openly love Titanic including "Lessons from the screenplay" and "Cinema therapy" channels. Be strong individual and ask yourself is there good reasons to hate Avatar or there is those toxic minority "1 star goodreads reviews" people are loud again and you getting persuaded. Our Avatar fan community have to deal with r/movies moderators deleting positive posts about Avatar 1 and 2 and there a lot of other crap like that.
Avatar world building: I always felt that unobtainium and the flux vortex were written as placeholders and just never replaced. It was hard for me to get past those terms in watching it. I did love the visuals though...
I am of the generation where Avatar came out during my formative years (when I was in middle school) and for me and my peers it really doesn't have that much of a hold on us. It was cool to watch when it came out, but nothing has really kept us wanting to come back to this world. I agree a lot with your analysis that the world is cool to be in and experience, but the characters are so flat and uninteresting and even unimportant that we don't really have anything to keep us attached to the series. I bet maybe 1% of people could tell me the name of the characters in the film. People are very attached to characters in fiction and their stories and that just doesn't really exist in this world, so it's hard to invest yourself in it
What I love the most about Avatar are the characters. The world is impressive, but having these characters guiding me in the process of exploring it is what really makes me interested in the evolving story and what the future holds for the franchise.
One of the things I've always enjoyed about your show is that y'all don't agree on a lot of things. I think the episodes would be very short and boring if you guys agreed on all topics. I really enjoy hearing why you do or don't like something. Thanks for what you all do!
Many of the newer grocery carts have the locks in their wheels. I used to push grocery carts and every so often my manager would drive around the town and we would have to go collect the stolen grocery carts
I think the Star Wars phenomenon was touched on better in a previous episode (when it was discussed alongside Harry Potter). The other day I came across a recreation of Whiterun (a city in Skyrim) that someone had done in the latest Halo game. It was undeniably impressive but seeing the empty city without any NPCs or animals or music was disturbing for me. Everything coming together harmoniously is obviously what makes media like SW and HP so beloved, but seeing that lifeless city made me realize how much more important the characters and music are for me personally. Skyrim wouldn't be Skyrim without either the epic orchestral music or the strong personalities of the NPCs (or the strikingly beautiful world and architecture). I was 17 when Avatar was released and still very impressionable, and I walked away feeling underwhelmed. I think a lot of people have become disillusioned with pretty visuals. I grew up playing SNES (and then N64) and watching 60s and 70s TV shows, so maybe I'm not representative of my generation, but in general I think people want what is colloquially called lore. I personally love Star Wars and Elder Scrolls because I can easily insert myself into the world without many mental gymnastics. I can't do that with Avatar or most other worlds from media I've seen. I appreciate the art, but it doesn't resonate in the same way.
I needed to hear this. I'm in my late twenties, and it has only been in the last year that I've let myself not finish a video game even if I'm not enjoying it. I have a large backlog of excellent, highly praised games that I now realize are not for me. I love Star Wars, and I liked Fallen Order, but I just couldn't finish it. It's okay. It wasn't made for me even if it was an excellent game. I am just now giving myself permission not to finish fiction books that don't interest me. I'm allowed to not like something and spend my time reading something else.
I come from the future! Which is to say I’m watching these podcasts in reverse order, and in a future one Brandon and Dan talk about their favorite books. I expected they enjoyed reading what they enjoyed writing, so I expected their lists to be filled with fantasy and horror “greats”. I like a variety of genres, and it would be okay if one of my favorite authors didn’t like all the same books as me, but never in my wildest did I imagine that the one book on both of our Top 5 Best Books lists would be Pride and Prejudice. It’s wonderful that we have access to so much art in the world that we can enjoy different things and find joy in finding someone else with some commonalities.
Hey Dan and Brandon, regarding Avatar: I was born 1997 so 12 when me and my friends watched Avatar, but even in my generation Avatar had no impact on me or anyone I know. At that time Harry Potter was arguably still biggest thing as the movies came out from 2001 to 2011 and there were, aside from the books, also tons and games and stuff. Additionally, lotr and star wars prequels were also kind of the biggest things for many boys my age since we all grew up with them, even if we were not in the theatres for that. I think I played with star wars lego, star wars lego video games and lotr video games before even seeing these movies.
As a Latin American the stories stir up a lot of family trauma, its like listening to my family members talk about the past. But it depresses the hell out of me, I like to say "You don't like 100 years of solitude if you are a Buendía"
I think it has more to do with how much we love your books, and we wonder how it is that the authors of some of our favorite stories can hate some of our other favorite stories / movies.
They have them at most stores on the west coast of America. The worst part is the often lock up halfway through parking lot sometimes, especially of you park in the back.
@@galmannmedbart well cart theft is pretty common in places with a lot of homeless and unfortunately the west coast of America has a lot of that. But yeah there has got to be a better way. Certainly a less annoying one
@@galmannmedbart how would you handle the repeated and steady theft of your shopping carts if you owned a shopping center? At least the locking up thing is non-violent and non-confrontational.
@@metumortis6323 I am 100% sure that replacing cats is cheaper than developing and implementing geo-locked carts. I figure one of the big problems is that they have set up a system where there are paid employees going around to fetch the carts is the incentive here.
The bit that sours me on wanting to go see Avatar 2 was the nearly decade long dedication to have a sequel even though there really didn't seem to be any more to the story. It was a visually stunning first movie which is why it did so well but it was done and I wish it would have just ended there. Drawing it out for a second installment smacks of a cash grab more than a passion project. And to be clear, a commissioned piece of art can be just as good as a passion project but it still feels bad to know that something was pushed out and advertised into your life just as a cash grab
I truly believe Avatar is more than a cash grab. The ideas and developments that occur in this second movie really add to the universe and paint a truly fantastical and crazy sci-fi story for future installments. I'm excited.
The locking wheel system on shopping carts came out around the 70s. There is an electrified wire shallowly burried around the perimeter of the parking lot that trips the locks on the cart.
Avatar hit as I was entering the 3D animation world, and so was an impressive example of its potential for me. It was engageing, and breath taking. I haven't seen A2 yet, and I will eventually, but I am skeptical even with its popularity. I think the difference between Avatar, and Starwars impact on society is that there was nothing to personally relate to for me in Avatar, while I could imagine myself being several of the characters in Starwars so it was very relatable for me. It was also a magic system that inspired my imagination. Avatar also bordered on preachy.
The fundamental thing about the quality of a piece of art is that it's impossible for anything to be good at everything. (It is arguably possible for something to be bad at everything.) The result is that if you enjoy something, it did well a thing that you wanted done. In other words, if you enjoy something, it is objectively good, at least at the thing you wanted it to do. Doc Smith's fiction did a brilliant job of engaging my imagination when I was 13. I can't read it now, but it was objectively good at satisfying my desires at that time. If you did not enjoy something, it did not do what you wanted at that time. This does not make it objectively bad, just bad at that set of things.
I feel what Brandon said about going into a movie with no expectations. I have no expectations of a movie shown for free on TH-cam, but I put on Tokyo Godfathers a few days ago because I felt like seeing something I'd never heard of. That movie is possibly my favorite Christmas movie now.
I have the explanation for the carts as a former grocer in the area. The carts wheels don't lock so much for food theft of the carts themselves. People steal the carts all the time for scrap or as their personal cart that they take home with them and use to shop with. I have seen them on people's porches etc. At one point we almost ran out of carts it got so bad. Maybe this will inspire another segment called Strange Heists?
Ironically I used to live in South Euclid! In low income areas, it's normal for shopping carts lock up when they leave the premises to prevent theft of the carts themselves, not theft of goods in carts. They have RFID tags in the wheels for this purpose. Loss of shopping carts is a huge expense for many local grocery stores.
Shopping cart wheel-locks are pretty common here in Toronto, Ontario. It prevents shopping cart theft or people trying to carry their groceries home with their carts
My favorite 'Bad Movie' of all time is..... Drum Roll "Johnny Mnemonic" featuring Keanu Reeves Love it. Hope Dan has seen it. Might have to add a bad movie segment every podcast there's no food heist. Love 'Bad Movies'.
My understanding is that the Avatar theme park is very well attended. I know it wasn't busy when Jenny went but I think it's very very popular overall. Also, I was 21 when Avatar came out, so not exactly a kid, but I know a lot of people who love it. Maybe not with the fervency of star wars fans, but it left a mark on me for sure and I absolutely loved the second one. I'll be seeing all of the sequels in theatres more than once for sure.
Thank you for this conversation... I absolutely hated almost every second of Arcane and had to grit my teeth to finish it. Every creative I know or listen has been raving about Arcane so I watched it and it just did not work for me at all.
I do feel that anxiety about my tastes, for instance I don’t really enjoy Robert Jordan as a writer in Wheel of Time (can’t get past book 5) and I feel by not liking it I’ll be crucified by it. And when I enjoyed the Mushoku Tensei books I feel people will do the same for various reasons. I understand why people love or hate these series. I feel this discussion kinda elevated the anxiety of that for awhile, thank you
Avatar’s success has always made me hopeful for Stormlight on the big screen.. Humans on a hostile world attacking a race of native aliens who are physically larger and stronger but with less advanced warfare- who also have vibrant striped colorations and a unique bond to their planet (hair for Avatar vs the Rhythms). The militaristic humans fight for the valuable resource (unobtanium/Gemhearts) that requires killing the aliens to get. Later on, it becomes a battle for the planet itself.. tbh, I am more worried that Stormlight will be viewed as ‘an Avatar ripoff’ 😅 especially toward the beginning without radiants
I was 9 when avatar came out so id say im in the generation that "grew up with it". I saw it and liked it but agree with Dan, but I couldn't tell you any characters names. it was an experience that inspired me with world-building, but it didn't leave a print on me like starwars (including the prequels) I'm planning on seeing the sequel to Avatar, but I'm not rushing to the theater or anything. I do have a friend who loved avatar about as much as starwars, so there are some.
I think one of the reasons I love Rogue One and Andor is because I'm a lot younger than Brandon and Dan. They grew up watching the original trilogy, but I also had the prequels and Clone Wars. I'm used to tragedy and a more gritty tone in my Star Wars, so I *love* Andor. A lot.
It is weird hearing this from Dan. I loved his Zero G series and tried my best for years to get my daughter to like it. But she was never into it. Last year I read skyward to her and she likes it. So true!!!
I am reporting in the field from Northwest Arkansas, home of Walmart, my understanding is that most if not all Walmarts do have locking carts but this is not a feature common to most other retail stores as of yet.
It's ok to like different things than other people, and it's ok to try to convince them to change their opinion of it, as long as you acknowledge that you can't *make/force* them to change their opinion. It's the last point being lost that leads to such heated arguments online over whether something is good or not.
Growing up, we didn't have a car. When my mom went to the grocery store, part of the time she would take a shopping cart home to get the groceries home. The other half, she'd call a cab. (Especially if it was raining or something.) If she brought it home, I'd often be roped into taking it back to the store. Once while returning a cart, a truck hired by the store to look for and collect carts insisted on taking it from me, so they could get paid for delivering it back to the store. Soon after that, my mom ended up speaking to a manager and getting written permission to have a shopping cart at times, just to make sure she could get her groceries home. Fun times.
I totally agree with the point being made here... Brandon is my favorite author and he is my kind of geek... I could have sworn he would love Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood (my favorite anime of all time) if he ever gave it a chance... and it did not work for him. The fact that you like two things does not mean those two things will always go together... Brandon likes Speed Racer... those things seem to not work together yet they do 🤣 Dan the Man is becoming my spirit animal
My wife and I are four episodes into Andor and I find the writing, pacing, and subtle world building to be incredible so far. It would have to be a pretty bad ending to ruin the show for me. I guess we'll see.
i work at a meat department in a grocery store in Cleveland (Around where Euclid and Garfield are) and that food heist story is actually really common around here, people steal and resell meat all the time, mostly Oxtails, Beef Roasts and Steaks. Also this is the first time i heard of shopping carts locking up, maybe its a Garfield thing lol
I agree that Cameron’s old movies are iconic and his new movies are experiential. Everyone has quoted Titanic, T2 and Aliens for decades now. Nobody quotes Avatar.
A friend and I were discussing James Cameron last week and we discovered that prior to The Terminator, he had just one older feature length director credit. The film is Piranha part 2: the Spawning. IMDB lists the age rating as X (I think bbfc standards as I saw 15/18 instead of pg13/r.)
“I trust that our listeners have done their due diligence in studiously avoiding all mention or sign of this news story” Dan I’ve been looking forward to this story so much this past week I have in fact subconsciously made myself forget all about it!
Oh my gosh me too! And theres a picture too!
I actually forgot so this was a pleasant surprise.
What story?
@@vincentpelletier57 Dan mentioned the meat suitcase story last week and asked us not to look it up.
I did my due diligence!!
I straight up didn’t eat meat for a week and avoided suitcases like the plague.
Dan is 100% percent correct in his assessment that Avatar did not captivate a generation the way Star Wars did. I will take a step further and say Avatar is more or less like a firework, ephemeral beauty that isnt' solid. (At least for the first Avatar) It felt like more people were interested in the background story and the process of how the movie was made than in the actual movie itself.
Came for Brandon Sanderson; stayed for Dan Wells
GOAT comment
Same here! Love hearing from Dan as much as Brandon
They’re are great and work well off each , also because of their deep friendship.
Came for Brandon Sanderson; didn’t have the stamina for Dan Wells
OMG I WAS SUPPOSED TO SAY THIS😭
Would love to see Brandon's take on Andor because I saw a lot of parallels with it and Mistborn. Mistborn is a fantasy heist against an evil empire and Andor starts as a star wars heist against an evil empire. The prison arc gave me some bridge 4 vibes from Stormlight. I also don't think liking or hating Rogue One relates to whether or not you would like or hate Andor.
Yesss this is so true.
Yep, completely agree
Agree on that. I didn't like Rogue One, and I thought Andor was the best Star Wars has been since Empire Strikes Back.
*Agreed was pretty mixed on Rogue One and thought Andor was superb*
I appreciate Dan’s explanation of why he doesn’t like Andor, especially about how if he sat down with someone such as myself who loves the show, we would probably say the same things on which actors were incredible, which sequences were a little long, etc. even though I love the show a ton, I can see myself agreeing with him on those points. Very good explanation and thanks for finally giving us some more of your thoughts on it.
i feel like im taking crazy pills here - . if you like the show, and he doesn't, there are clearly things you *dont* agree on. highlighting that there are probably many things you have in common with the show is not an "explanation of why he doesn't like andor" - in fact, it's almost the opposite! very frustrating and strange, like just dig in and tell us man. i can only assume this is a religious/moral issue with how guarded he acts about it.
@@ifuckinglovenurdrage I don’t think so. I think he is not wanting to talk specifics until Brandon has seen it. I am his same religion and I can’t see anything that he would be unhappy with. Like he said, he loved most of it until the very end. I’m guessing that he doesn’t like how morally grey Luthen is, or perhaps he didn’t like the battle at the end of the last episode. He mentioned that he likes Star Wars to be campy and Andor changes that a lot, making the Empire more understandable and the Rebels not as heroic. Andor also gives a lot more meaning to death, whereas in normal Star Wars people either never die or millions of Storm Troopers die and nobody cares. I’m guessing that those are his issues but he won’t talk about it until Brandon has seen it.
In regards to us agreeing about most things, I think he would agree with me that the show is well written, that the acting is great, that the shots are beautiful, etc, it just isn’t the type of show that he enjoys to watch. He said that he knows that it is good as a work of art, but that is different than enjoying it.
@@Panamaniac3D Yeah I agree I think he likes thinking of the rebels as the good guys and the empire as the bad guys which Andor does show some of. I think the whole "the ends justify the means" attitude is part of Dans issue with the rebels though and paints them more like the empire than he likes, even if its compelling it ruins his image of the rebels. I think it's similar to how I feel about Luke in episode 8, even if it is a compelling story or interesting take it ruins my image of Uncorruptable Jedi Knight Luke from episode 6.
@@Panamaniac3D original Star Wars isn’t campy and the modern trend making things morally grey and realistic is both nihilistic and lacking in imagination.
@@ifuckinglovenurdrage I have no moral complaints about the show, I just didn't enjoy it, and I don't see any value in sharing my thoughts on why because it feels like pooping on a thing that a lot of people love. I prefer to recommend things I love rather than bash things I dislike. But, if you insist: I liked maybe five of the episodes, but found most of it to be poorly-paced and dull. Some of the side characters are fantastic (I literally started watching Killing Eve just because of how much I liked Fiona Shaw in Andor, and I would watch that cranky Imperial Intelligence guy in literally anything), but others--particularly Andor himself--were wooden and bland. The production design was great, but I'd prefer to watch something interesting while admiring sets and costumes. Overall it was a pretty boring slog that had very little to say and ended up going nowhere; that's why the last episode turned me off so hard, because they cut a lot of narrative corners for not much payoff. I hear "it's the most mature Star Wars series" a lot, and sure, I guess, but that's an extremely low bar, and compared to any number of other political or espionage dramas (Slow Horses, Tehran, etc.) I found it facile and superficial. A Child's Treasury of Espionage Cliches, that seems to treat "joyless" and "important" as synonyms.
But I also recognize that a lot of people found things in it that I didn't, and that's okay. We're both right. I'm not trying to convince anyone not to like it, because people like different things. Like what you want to like.
In the spirit of recommending rather than bashing, here's a list of shows I've watched in 2022 and adored: Slow Horses, Tehran, Russian Doll, Reservation Dogs, The Crown, and of course what might be my favorite show of all time: Derry Girls.
That entire food heist checks out so hard. I'm from the area, and I find this accurate and hilarious. Locking carts? Yup. Shady meat practices? Yeah, I could see it. Am I still going to all my fave restaurants/diners in the area when I go to visit family? Absolutely.
Thank you for this discussion! So much of online culture seems to be focused on bashing things and making people feel self-conscious for liking things. That is the main reason why I keep my art preferences to myself online.
Oh no, you like the thing! Did you not know that Thing Bad? You must be uncultured swine for liking Thing Bad. I bet you've never seen Thing Good, it is so much better than Thing Bad. I am better than you.
The Irony that Star Wars is immediately better with Rogue One and Andor in it for me, whilst it somehow ruins the consequence free fun of it all for Sanderson, is odd.
I never saw it as consequence free fun and anything that pushed us in that direction was always worse to me. I prefer deeper character development and consequences. Andor is amazing!
I love Stormlight Archives for it's variety. Each character has their own flavor in that way there is something for everyone.
Ironically for me, Andor did the exact inverse of what Brandon said Rogue One did for him. Andor makes Star Wars feel like a real place again. A place where people live, love, and work. A world that exists not just as a background for a fun action scene. To me, Andor lets me buy back in to The Star Wars Universe and elevates all the other material.
those shopping carts have been around since like 2005 - a new built supermarket near my college campus had them back then. The shopping carts from other stores would be consistantly stolen and taken to apartment complexes.
They are also just fenced in by a strong magnet
"It's OK to disagree" is an important takeaway in general.
OK so locking wheel shopping carts have been around since the 60s. There's a row of magnets under the ground/pavement at the edge of the parking lot that trips a mechanism in the wheel that pushes a metal rod through a hole in the rear wheels when they pass over the magnets. I think there are more modern computer based ones too but I think walmarts use the magnetic line method still.
Watching dan smile whenever he makes brandon crack up makes me smile.
I remember in an episode where Dan asked if he could decorate the background of his side with his own things and you guys agreed. It's been a long time and the background still hasn't changed. Did something happen behind the scenes to prevent that? I really wanted to see Dan's decorations. Still waiting. Thank you.
Plot twist: Dan has decorated his side. He simply happens to have the same stuff as Brandon, and really just wanted the mental comfort of knowing that it was HIS stuff around him.
Helloooo! I watched Avatar in my formative years and its safe to say that it has shaped me as a person! I consider the depth of the story and the "what's going to happen to this character" to not be surrounding Jake or Neytiri but to be about Eywa and Pandora. I want to know what happens to them!!! Basically the film shaped one of my core values... the world... and I'm studying engineering to help save it from our (humanities) mistakes 🤷♀️ It's what I'm dedicating my life to.
I think this has to be my favourite episode of IB. Your earnest and enthusiastic opinions about art - with the nuances we'd expect, coming from artists - were so compelling. It's not a perfect podcast episode, but...
I love Avatar. I was a sophomore in high school when it came out and still love it at 30 yrs old. Pandora in florida is a dream come true. The second movie is even more amazing and has a bit more depth to its storyline. Avatar moved me like no other movie has in my life. I understand why others don't love it, but I connect with it. It is a light story in the first one, but it has a great message. The experience also drew me in, like Dan said. I had no expectations going into Avatar and came away completely fulfilled. There are many factors why each person enjoys something different, and I believe age, like Brandon said, does have some influence on our enjoyment. I love this podcast and these two amazing authors! Thanks for being a great example of how to discuss differences in a healthy and non-judgemental way. I look forward to the next episode!
I live in Maryland, and all of our grocery stores have wheel locking shopping carts. Otherwise people in this area steal them, play with them, and dump them once they are wrecked. Since shopping carts are surprisingly expensive, the wheel lock systems pay for themselves pretty quickly.
UK here - same for the big stores!
I think I enjoyed Andor so much because it had a lot to say about real life and it said it very well. We already know how this is going to end because of Rogue One, but I am so excited for the next season.
I’ve seen so many people mention how they’re surprised that Disney released this, but they kinda addressed this in the show. They’re not listening because they don’t have to.
That's a food heist and a bad story idea all in one. 😂
I love your friendship so much 😂
I actually have the same wacky tastes as my father in law…my husband thinks we’re nuts. We’re always riffing quotes from old movies and cartoons. My husband just shakes his head, but I think it’s good…I introduced him to stuff and likewise he has too! I’ve felt the fear of being the one who likes something the majority doesn’t…but now it’s just more fun to find new things to like from everyone around me.🤷🏻♀️ (or not. Lol)
What a great discussion! I loved the ways that you drew the lines and illuminated the differences between appreciating something, liking something, and the quality of that thing. Your insights as creators of art were very valuable. The internet is where nuance goes to get trolled and doxed, but I believe that this is MY favorite episode of your podcast.
1:52 Yes, shopping carts lock when outside of a certain range. It has screwed me over on a couple occasions. We've had it around here for at least 10 years.
Another interesting shopping cart thing:
At big local mall (Metrotown in Burnaby BC), just in front of the Superstore, there are these escalators that come up from the underground parking, but they're not the stair style escalators, just a diagonal conveyor belt that has the same sort of metal slatted appearance of escalators. Getting shopping carts up and down this has been a problem, because if you have a particularly heavy cart, you really have to brace yourself from the bottom to make sure it doesnt roll down and take out everyone along the way. Strike, ten points. I once helped an elderly lady who would have had a serious problem managing that - worst thing that happened was that her lil dog rolled off of the cart, poor lil fella. He was fine though.
Anyway, just the other day, they implemented this thing that seems to magnet the cart's wheels in place on those escalators so they don't roll down. I have no idea what changed, or if it was just broken for a long time. But it's neat, and probably should have been fixed right away if it was broken. 😅😅 It went for at least a year of me shopping there with carts being an issue.
Love seeing Jenny getting a shout out here. Her content is top tier
I was totally about to bring up Jenny once Avatar fans were mentioned lol
I am glad Dan talked about this show and why he didn’t like it, I also understand if Brandon doesn’t end up watching it. However I really do hope Brandon gives it a watch.
As a listener since the beginning of this podcast, and a massive Star Wars fan, the reason I wanted the two of them to see the show is because I believed that Brandon and Dan have the same issues with current star was as I do.
If you are a Star Wars fan, I think that Andor is a brilliantly made show in that universe. It also lacks all of the things that have disillusioned me from Star Wars in recent years.
As someone who has a Walmart with wheels that lock up, I believe it is done with magnetic in the ground. Although I live in Canada and usually snow is the best shopping cart theft protection.
I was right at that perfect age when Avatar came out to latch onto the IP. I think what Dan said rings true. Loved it as a kid, saw it 3 times nearly back to back full 3D experience, played the game, but barely remember the story. In contrast I love Star Wars lore and world building. I didn't have such a strong tie to the Star Wars characters as others I think so when the new trilogy came out I thought it was cool that more planets, set design, and star warsy items were put out. Didn't really care how they handled Luke or if they rehashed past stories or not.
People can’t control what they like or dislike. You either do or don’t. There is nothing wrong with you if you do/don’t like something that someone else does/doesn’t like. You can study something and learn to appreciate it. You can also start/stop liking something as you change and get older (or even as your mood or circumstances change) but you’re still not in control of that. Liking is a visceral reaction. So sit back, relax and just like what you like.
You can kinda control it. On the positive side, taste can be acquired and refined; on the negative side, you can convince yourself to like something you actually don't, or convince yourself to dislike something you do. If you deliberately immerse yourself in certain cultural contexts and pick up different value systems, then different narratives and artistic choices are going to appeal to you. It's not cut-and-dried cause-and-effect or anything, but it's also not a purely intrinsic thing the way you're trying to say.
This podcast (and the lecture content on your channel) has unironically helped me a great deal as I’ve focused on learning the basics of story telling and built the structure that suits how my brain works. I always return to your content when I figure something out or feel like I’ve “unlocked” some perspective on building in order to feel if I’m on the right track. Love everything that you bring to storytelling, Brandon! Thanks for your indirect influence and inspiration.
@@aristeo7495 thanks! I’ll check it out
i watched avatar when i was 19 loved it. the main reason it didn't obsessed me the way star wars obsessed you is that there were very few supplemental material. star wars had comics and novel almost immediately and the sequel came out 3 years latter.
This! I think people forget that Star Wars or Star Trek had a constant influx of material in several mediums after their debut. Meanwhile, for Avatar there was just one film, for 13 years. It seems weird to compare those two different scenarios, so much.
I felt very similar when I got to the end of Andor. Everything was really well done and I enjoyed the individual episodes, but I got to the end and felt something was missing.
I can appreciate Brandon’s take on Star Wars and how the new material is radically different in tone and in how seriously it takes itself. Despite the fact that it wasn’t the intent of the franchise back in the 70s and 80s, it works well for me in the case of recent additions like Rogue One and Andor because like real life, the good v evil story actually has layers and depth to it. A New Hope is a veneer over a more complex and nuanced story that includes the flawed individuals in Rogue One, and Andor shows that not all imperials had the same outlook on individuality. I guess I’m in the target audience.
"I don't think it sucks I don't like it" yeah fair enough.
When I went to the world of Avatar it was packed to the gills, and this was a few years after the park opened. Got there early in the morning, made a B line to flight of passage, and waited three hours.
Also I loved avatar when I was a kid and when I grew up I thought it sucked but was still fun
Thanks so much for your explanations, I really loved this episode - not that we were “owed” anything, but because it opened my mind about the difference between appreciating and liking. I can now understand why Brandon doesn’t like R1, because I’ve had similar experiences with other things that people have liked…one thing turned me off and it was game over. The older I’ve gotten the more willing I am to abandon a media item if I don’t like. I know that can potentially rob me of things that are great “later on”…how many times have we hated something first go around, but then absolutely loved years later? This happened to me with School of Rock. Hated it at first. But several years later, loved it…it’s a rare movie I’ll re-watch.
There’s so much media surrounding us…it’s okay to be more discerning and picky. While media volume has grown immensely, the amount of time I have to enjoy it has declined, and God won’t give me more time, so I have to be more choosy. :)
Could you guys discuss - doesn’t have to be an entire episode - StarCraft or other games you enjoyed playing in college? Strategies that were fun or effective, etc. - ?
Most people have a complex and weird relationship with melodrama. Titanic is really a melodrama on the backdrop of the ship sinking. Avatar is really a lightweight turning native story ala Dances with Wolves which is also a kind of melodrama. So people think that has to be 'bad' or 'childish' because it doesn't seem new or complex.
I mean, people also often get annoyed if a story has its themes with the subtly of hitting you on the head with a hammer. That was certainly Avatar.
I even overall agree with a lot of its "themes", but they felt like:
MILITARY BAD!
ECOLOGY GOOD!
COLONIALISM BAD!
Theoretically interesting points to make, but when made with such a lack of subtly -- it's hard to not roll your eyes and say WTF.
I love that you guys had this discussion! Fascinating stuff! I think I was just caught off guard by Dan disliking Andor because the show seems right up his alley with the more dynamic morals and gritty setting. But it's very fair to have your own opinions. :) I adored Andor personally even though I don't typically love darker stories
My favorite episode so far I think. Very interesting to think back on things I enjoyed and others didn't, or vice versa, and try and understand why I felt the way I did about those things.
I accept that everyone has their own tastes and reasons for likes and dislikes.
Having said that, this is a podcast. I don't listen to it just to hear that you weren't fond of something. I want to hear why, that's the interesting part. That's why I listen in. It's the perspective.
I have learned it's human nature to just assume someone's motivations, or thought processes, for their beliefs/opinions.
Which is why I like hearing Brandon's takes on various subjects. The vast majority of the time. He can thoroughly, and concisely explain his perspective and tastes.
I think this works very well for the format of the podcast.
Dan sometimes does. Which is fine, he doesn't owe viewers a perfectly worded well thought out reason for his perspective/reasoning. But I am fairly certain that most will be disappointed. That's what a lot of viewership wants to hear.
Titanic is my favorite movie! It’s a perfect romantic adventure movie turned tragic horror and the pacing, characters, score, visuals hit all the marks!
I talk of my love of Avatar the way my mom talks about how much she loves star wars. I was 11 when the first one came out, I've seen the 2nd one in twice now, considering a third theater trip. I can clearly see the ways in which Avatar has had a major impact on the other art that I love now. But as far as an entire generation feeling this way, none of my similarly aged friends agree that Avatar was a formative art experience for them.
I believe this happened because, for a long time, there was just one Avatar film. That's it. Meanwhile, other stories like Star Wars, Star Trek, and many others had a constant influx of content for decades after their debut.
@@glass12 I think you hit on the key point. If there was an avatar movie every 3-4 years for a decade, people would remember and be impacted by it much more.
Really dig how thoughtfully Dan and Brandon give their opinions, even on art in general. Well done, gents **thumbs up**
I discovered that shopping carts do that when I was a kid. Targets in CA do that… don’t worry about how I figured that out lol
Great job! This was the first episode that I found engaging enough to listen to all the way through. I think it's because your conversation didn't meander as much. The stuff you guys said about art really resonated with me.
Great episode. Also, I don't prefer all of Brandon's books. But I enjoy a number of them. Good, bad, popular--these are often also viewed through the lens of time (and timing). Quite a few artists and writers have been panned during life and very popular after they died. The odd truth is that there many things out there which people could enjoy, but only when the stars align do we get popular and notable works.
Yet even then, few things are timeless. Enjoyment itself is often only for the moment or (at best) a while. Few things persist, last a lifetime, or become timeless, transcendent works.
The size of the world we live in (and the number of years elapsed) has put each thing into a smaller and smaller place in history. There's little reason to get caught up in good and bad--because time marches on, and people produce new things...and nothing is perfect.
The best way to approach likes and dislikes is as a means to navigate ourselves towards future things that we can enjoy. We should use our past decisions and experiences to inform our futures and not worry about "who likes what". Life is simply too short to get overly attached to any art. Instead, thinking about the future and making something else (iterating!) is the wiser way to live.
Today I learned I’m probably a significantly worse person than Brandon because I actually kind of enjoy thinking about the things pulpy sci-fi/fantasy stories gloss over, in a sort of, “That’s horrible/that’s hilarious” kinda way. But I also grew up watching Robot Chicken’s early seasons (up to the first Star Wars special) which…yeah
I worked for Walmart for 13 years. Walmarts in bigger cities and high theft areas have shopping carts with locks on the wheels that automatically lock when they get a certain distance from the store to deter people from stealing the carts. Most smaller town Walmarts don't have them.
I was super curious why Dan didn't like andor. Then to have this discussion of the relationship between fans and Podcaster is 🔥.
Thanks for such nerdy talks 😃
Love it when people distinguish between enjoying and appreciating something. For my it’s film noire; I have never actively enjoyed a noire movie, show, book, etc (and I’ve done some of “the greats”) because it for some reason just doesn’t hit me right. But in the same vein I can clearly say that Chinatown is a work of art, that I appreciate having watched, but did not actively enjoy
I can appreciate that the Godfather is a perfect movie. Acting, cinematography, dialogue, music, all that. But I just don't like the films, I just can't get behind the mobster stuff.
You need to check out the Harmon's in SLC City Creek area. They have those Geo fenced carts.
Avatar is my favourite film of all time and im 30 years old. It hit me. Under the surface is ecological message that told in all ways you noticed and not noticed. Film and James Cameron himself inspired me to become vegan and be ecological volunteer. Story might be simple but it designed that way as "trojan horse" to talk about "tree-hugging" stuff Cameron is interested in. I think people who have one of the deepest appreciations for Avatar have nature and ecology as their high value as do i. We are loosing nature and have nature deficit disorder and according to Jim interviews, that i watch and read a lot of, Avatar is inspiration for sustainability, ecology and guardianship for nature. It does not tell you what to do or what vote for, but it tries to inspire and it inspires me. P.S. Again don't listen to haters, backlash for Titanic from toxic minority swaped many people and now that people are having backlash for backlash and openly love Titanic including "Lessons from the screenplay" and "Cinema therapy" channels. Be strong individual and ask yourself is there good reasons to hate Avatar or there is those toxic minority "1 star goodreads reviews" people are loud again and you getting persuaded. Our Avatar fan community have to deal with r/movies moderators deleting positive posts about Avatar 1 and 2 and there a lot of other crap like that.
Avatar world building: I always felt that unobtainium and the flux vortex were written as placeholders and just never replaced. It was hard for me to get past those terms in watching it. I did love the visuals though...
Plot twist: “Unobtanium” has been a term used by engineers since the 1950s for materials with absurd cost or that don’t even exist.
I did avoid duckduckgoing "suitcase full of meat," mostly since I forgot.
I am of the generation where Avatar came out during my formative years (when I was in middle school) and for me and my peers it really doesn't have that much of a hold on us. It was cool to watch when it came out, but nothing has really kept us wanting to come back to this world. I agree a lot with your analysis that the world is cool to be in and experience, but the characters are so flat and uninteresting and even unimportant that we don't really have anything to keep us attached to the series. I bet maybe 1% of people could tell me the name of the characters in the film. People are very attached to characters in fiction and their stories and that just doesn't really exist in this world, so it's hard to invest yourself in it
What I love the most about Avatar are the characters. The world is impressive, but having these characters guiding me in the process of exploring it is what really makes me interested in the evolving story and what the future holds for the franchise.
Everything they said about art in this episode is so true.
One of the things I've always enjoyed about your show is that y'all don't agree on a lot of things. I think the episodes would be very short and boring if you guys agreed on all topics.
I really enjoy hearing why you do or don't like something. Thanks for what you all do!
Many of the newer grocery carts have the locks in their wheels. I used to push grocery carts and every so often my manager would drive around the town and we would have to go collect the stolen grocery carts
“South Euclid, Ohio” Alright, but what about the North Euclid and what’s the Meat Man’s SCP number?
Dan, I love your Mirador books! Reading them for a second time.
Very refreshing topic today. Great episode!
I think the Star Wars phenomenon was touched on better in a previous episode (when it was discussed alongside Harry Potter).
The other day I came across a recreation of Whiterun (a city in Skyrim) that someone had done in the latest Halo game. It was undeniably impressive but seeing the empty city without any NPCs or animals or music was disturbing for me.
Everything coming together harmoniously is obviously what makes media like SW and HP so beloved, but seeing that lifeless city made me realize how much more important the characters and music are for me personally. Skyrim wouldn't be Skyrim without either the epic orchestral music or the strong personalities of the NPCs (or the strikingly beautiful world and architecture).
I was 17 when Avatar was released and still very impressionable, and I walked away feeling underwhelmed. I think a lot of people have become disillusioned with pretty visuals. I grew up playing SNES (and then N64) and watching 60s and 70s TV shows, so maybe I'm not representative of my generation, but in general I think people want what is colloquially called lore. I personally love Star Wars and Elder Scrolls because I can easily insert myself into the world without many mental gymnastics. I can't do that with Avatar or most other worlds from media I've seen. I appreciate the art, but it doesn't resonate in the same way.
I needed to hear this. I'm in my late twenties, and it has only been in the last year that I've let myself not finish a video game even if I'm not enjoying it. I have a large backlog of excellent, highly praised games that I now realize are not for me. I love Star Wars, and I liked Fallen Order, but I just couldn't finish it. It's okay. It wasn't made for me even if it was an excellent game.
I am just now giving myself permission not to finish fiction books that don't interest me. I'm allowed to not like something and spend my time reading something else.
I come from the future! Which is to say I’m watching these podcasts in reverse order, and in a future one Brandon and Dan talk about their favorite books. I expected they enjoyed reading what they enjoyed writing, so I expected their lists to be filled with fantasy and horror “greats”. I like a variety of genres, and it would be okay if one of my favorite authors didn’t like all the same books as me, but never in my wildest did I imagine that the one book on both of our Top 5 Best Books lists would be Pride and Prejudice. It’s wonderful that we have access to so much art in the world that we can enjoy different things and find joy in finding someone else with some commonalities.
Hey Dan and Brandon,
regarding Avatar: I was born 1997 so 12 when me and my friends watched Avatar, but even in my generation Avatar had no impact on me or anyone I know.
At that time Harry Potter was arguably still biggest thing as the movies came out from 2001 to 2011 and there were, aside from the books, also tons and games and stuff.
Additionally, lotr and star wars prequels were also kind of the biggest things for many boys my age since we all grew up with them, even if we were not in the theatres for that. I think I played with star wars lego, star wars lego video games and lotr video games before even seeing these movies.
As a Latin American the stories stir up a lot of family trauma, its like listening to my family members talk about the past. But it depresses the hell out of me, I like to say "You don't like 100 years of solitude if you are a Buendía"
I think it has more to do with how much we love your books, and we wonder how it is that the authors of some of our favorite stories can hate some of our other favorite stories / movies.
geo-locked shopping carts may be one of the most dystopian things i have ever heard of after hobo spikes.
They have them at most stores on the west coast of America. The worst part is the often lock up halfway through parking lot sometimes, especially of you park in the back.
@@metumortis6323 gross!
I am not very familiar with large American shopping centers, but there are so many better ways to handle shopping carts.
@@galmannmedbart well cart theft is pretty common in places with a lot of homeless and unfortunately the west coast of America has a lot of that. But yeah there has got to be a better way. Certainly a less annoying one
@@galmannmedbart how would you handle the repeated and steady theft of your shopping carts if you owned a shopping center? At least the locking up thing is non-violent and non-confrontational.
@@metumortis6323 I am 100% sure that replacing cats is cheaper than developing and implementing geo-locked carts.
I figure one of the big problems is that they have set up a system where there are paid employees going around to fetch the carts is the incentive here.
The bit that sours me on wanting to go see Avatar 2 was the nearly decade long dedication to have a sequel even though there really didn't seem to be any more to the story. It was a visually stunning first movie which is why it did so well but it was done and I wish it would have just ended there. Drawing it out for a second installment smacks of a cash grab more than a passion project. And to be clear, a commissioned piece of art can be just as good as a passion project but it still feels bad to know that something was pushed out and advertised into your life just as a cash grab
I truly believe Avatar is more than a cash grab. The ideas and developments that occur in this second movie really add to the universe and paint a truly fantastical and crazy sci-fi story for future installments. I'm excited.
The locking wheel system on shopping carts came out around the 70s. There is an electrified wire shallowly burried around the perimeter of the parking lot that trips the locks on the cart.
Oh my gosh! Thank you for everything 💗
Avatar hit as I was entering the 3D animation world, and so was an impressive example of its potential for me. It was engageing, and breath taking. I haven't seen A2 yet, and I will eventually, but I am skeptical even with its popularity.
I think the difference between Avatar, and Starwars impact on society is that there was nothing to personally relate to for me in Avatar, while I could imagine myself being several of the characters in Starwars so it was very relatable for me. It was also a magic system that inspired my imagination. Avatar also bordered on preachy.
The fundamental thing about the quality of a piece of art is that it's impossible for anything to be good at everything. (It is arguably possible for something to be bad at everything.)
The result is that if you enjoy something, it did well a thing that you wanted done. In other words, if you enjoy something, it is objectively good, at least at the thing you wanted it to do. Doc Smith's fiction did a brilliant job of engaging my imagination when I was 13. I can't read it now, but it was objectively good at satisfying my desires at that time.
If you did not enjoy something, it did not do what you wanted at that time. This does not make it objectively bad, just bad at that set of things.
I feel what Brandon said about going into a movie with no expectations. I have no expectations of a movie shown for free on TH-cam, but I put on Tokyo Godfathers a few days ago because I felt like seeing something I'd never heard of. That movie is possibly my favorite Christmas movie now.
Just listened to Dark One: Forgotten today! I LOVED it! So clever.
I have the explanation for the carts as a former grocer in the area. The carts wheels don't lock so much for food theft of the carts themselves. People steal the carts all the time for scrap or as their personal cart that they take home with them and use to shop with. I have seen them on people's porches etc. At one point we almost ran out of carts it got so bad. Maybe this will inspire another segment called Strange Heists?
Ironically I used to live in South Euclid! In low income areas, it's normal for shopping carts lock up when they leave the premises to prevent theft of the carts themselves, not theft of goods in carts. They have RFID tags in the wheels for this purpose. Loss of shopping carts is a huge expense for many local grocery stores.
Shopping cart wheel-locks are pretty common here in Toronto, Ontario. It prevents shopping cart theft or people trying to carry their groceries home with their carts
My favorite 'Bad Movie' of all time is..... Drum Roll
"Johnny Mnemonic" featuring Keanu Reeves
Love it. Hope Dan has seen it. Might have to add a bad movie segment every podcast there's no food heist. Love 'Bad Movies'.
My understanding is that the Avatar theme park is very well attended. I know it wasn't busy when Jenny went but I think it's very very popular overall.
Also, I was 21 when Avatar came out, so not exactly a kid, but I know a lot of people who love it. Maybe not with the fervency of star wars fans, but it left a mark on me for sure and I absolutely loved the second one. I'll be seeing all of the sequels in theatres more than once for sure.
Thank you for this conversation... I absolutely hated almost every second of Arcane and had to grit my teeth to finish it. Every creative I know or listen has been raving about Arcane so I watched it and it just did not work for me at all.
I do feel that anxiety about my tastes, for instance I don’t really enjoy Robert Jordan as a writer in Wheel of Time (can’t get past book 5) and I feel by not liking it I’ll be crucified by it. And when I enjoyed the Mushoku Tensei books I feel people will do the same for various reasons. I understand why people love or hate these series. I feel this discussion kinda elevated the anxiety of that for awhile, thank you
Avatar’s success has always made me hopeful for Stormlight on the big screen..
Humans on a hostile world attacking a race of native aliens who are physically larger and stronger but with less advanced warfare- who also have vibrant striped colorations and a unique bond to their planet (hair for Avatar vs the Rhythms). The militaristic humans fight for the valuable resource (unobtanium/Gemhearts) that requires killing the aliens to get. Later on, it becomes a battle for the planet itself..
tbh, I am more worried that Stormlight will be viewed as ‘an Avatar ripoff’ 😅 especially toward the beginning without radiants
I was 9 when avatar came out so id say im in the generation that "grew up with it". I saw it and liked it but agree with Dan, but I couldn't tell you any characters names. it was an experience that inspired me with world-building, but it didn't leave a print on me like starwars (including the prequels)
I'm planning on seeing the sequel to Avatar, but I'm not rushing to the theater or anything.
I do have a friend who loved avatar about as much as starwars, so there are some.
I think one of the reasons I love Rogue One and Andor is because I'm a lot younger than Brandon and Dan. They grew up watching the original trilogy, but I also had the prequels and Clone Wars. I'm used to tragedy and a more gritty tone in my Star Wars, so I *love* Andor. A lot.
Hi Brandon, just wanted to say your books are solely what got me into reading. I’m on my sixth hard copy, which is Calamity. 👌
It is weird hearing this from Dan. I loved his Zero G series and tried my best for years to get my daughter to like it. But she was never into it. Last year I read skyward to her and she likes it. So true!!!
Yep. Geofenced shopping carts is a thing here on east coast US too…
Lol West Coast (California) too, everywhere but Utah I guess Lol
I am reporting in the field from Northwest Arkansas, home of Walmart, my understanding is that most if not all Walmarts do have locking carts but this is not a feature common to most other retail stores as of yet.
It's ok to like different things than other people, and it's ok to try to convince them to change their opinion of it, as long as you acknowledge that you can't *make/force* them to change their opinion. It's the last point being lost that leads to such heated arguments online over whether something is good or not.
Utah has had locking shopping carts for years. They can be found mainly in the downtown Salt Lake area to prevent them being taken by the homeless.
Growing up, we didn't have a car. When my mom went to the grocery store, part of the time she would take a shopping cart home to get the groceries home. The other half, she'd call a cab. (Especially if it was raining or something.) If she brought it home, I'd often be roped into taking it back to the store.
Once while returning a cart, a truck hired by the store to look for and collect carts insisted on taking it from me, so they could get paid for delivering it back to the store. Soon after that, my mom ended up speaking to a manager and getting written permission to have a shopping cart at times, just to make sure she could get her groceries home. Fun times.
I totally agree with the point being made here... Brandon is my favorite author and he is my kind of geek... I could have sworn he would love Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood (my favorite anime of all time) if he ever gave it a chance... and it did not work for him. The fact that you like two things does not mean those two things will always go together...
Brandon likes Speed Racer... those things seem to not work together yet they do 🤣
Dan the Man is becoming my spirit animal
My wife and I are four episodes into Andor and I find the writing, pacing, and subtle world building to be incredible so far. It would have to be a pretty bad ending to ruin the show for me. I guess we'll see.
i work at a meat department in a grocery store in Cleveland (Around where Euclid and Garfield are) and that food heist story is actually really common around here, people steal and resell meat all the time, mostly Oxtails, Beef Roasts and Steaks. Also this is the first time i heard of shopping carts locking up, maybe its a Garfield thing lol
I agree that Cameron’s old movies are iconic and his new movies are experiential. Everyone has quoted Titanic, T2 and Aliens for decades now. Nobody quotes Avatar.
One of the best episodes!
A friend and I were discussing James Cameron last week and we discovered that prior to The Terminator, he had just one older feature length director credit. The film is Piranha part 2: the Spawning. IMDB lists the age rating as X (I think bbfc standards as I saw 15/18 instead of pg13/r.)