One comment on fare integration: I think the long term plan should be to have an option similar to what's available in Germany, where you can get an unlimited country-wide pass for just €50/month. We should do something like this in Ontario, covering all the various transit agencies. If an agency wants to receive provincial funds, they need to be part of a singular fare system, with province wide options for monthly passes to get you anywhere you need to go without paying extra.
Looking at the map of potential intermediate stations, I think John Tory saddled the system with a bad legacy in his proposal for a King-Liberty stop. A better option would have been a Fort York station at Bathurst and Front, the last point where the Lakeshore West, Kitchener and Barrie lines share the same corridor. It would give high frequency, high capacity service for people travelling from the downtown core to Liberty Village and the east side of Parkdale. It would also mean shorter trip times and easier transfers for anyone coming from the north whose destination is in the west, and vice versa. If Go was running EMUs you could support the short spacing between Fort York and King-Liberty, or Fort York and Exhibition, but with loco hauled trains it doesn’t make sense.
Front-Spadina should absolutely happen and *Should* link up with the Ontario Line to act as a Shoulder station similar to East Harbor but with more lines
Another solution to integration, from a governance perspective, might be to make the individual transit agencies divisions of Metrolinx, and provide the municipalities a greater degree of influence within the organization.
Orangeville: No. Low ridership and the old OBRY corridor is too curvy to maintain any speed to compete with a bus. Brantford: This is VIA's area since they already have to use that corridor. Adding GO would just burn money. Peterborough: Possibly.
Agreed. Service to Peterborough would be better on the CP line, replicating the old Via service to Havelock. But we all know that CPKC doesn’t like any passenger service on their tracks or in their corridor. And, being a federally-regulated railway, they can tell the province to get lost if they come asking.
We need a system like London where you can use TfL (Transport For London - Underground, Overground, Bus) or National Rail services throughout London and the surrounding area with either an Oyster (like Presto) card, or any contactless credit card (physical cards or on your smartphone - better than Oyster in the sense which is a stored value card you need top top up) and you get the best fare automatically for your journey. Also a daily/weekly/monthly cap is applied based on what zones you travel within, or to/from. You can create an account if you want to (not mandatory) which will allow you to review your journeys & charges online. Based on your journeys payments are distributed in a calculated ratio between TfL or the National Rail provider to keep the service provider happy. There's really no reason this couldn't work between the TTC and Metrolinx the way it does between TfL and National Rail companies.
I think GO should run EMUs on shortened routes with more frequent stops, mostly within Toronto. The traditional Bi-level diesel electric trains can continue to service all full routes at minimum 30min intervals, with some stops skipped so they act more like express trains compared to the EMU routes that would stop more frequently
I’ve never been to Toronto and I’m not familiar with the geography but I think there should be a circle/loop line going around downtown connecting all the lines together. It would take pressure of Union Station and encourage growth outside of the city core. I don’t know if this is even feasible or what right of way this would take. If a new right if way is needed then land acquisition alone would be a significant challenge
A high farebox recovery ratio means that the transport agency is able to cover a certain or all of the costs of operating the service. This has nothing to do with profitability as it does not include ancillary sources of revenue and does not include maintenance costs and capital expenditure. While YRT may have a 50% farebox recovery compared to the TTC's 60%, it would be much cheaper to subsidise the YRT, as its only buses and BRT's as they are cheaper to operate. Amtrak has a 95% recovery ratio but has never been profitable.
The point he's making is that using GO transit within Toronto should be allowed with TTC fares. One Fare program eliminates double fares but still makes riders pay the higher GO fare. So TTC riders will still opt for longer bus rides in order to use the cheaper ttc fare.
I would like to say regarding stations is that both Milton line and Peterborough line trains can serve both Union Station and North Toronto station, it will make the crowds go from packed to the most busiest stations in Toronto with not one, but two GO Transit stations. Both with diesel power, if EMUs on GO Transit and Diesel come across on the preservative of Toronto's Union Station. It will become train station in Canadian history to serve both diesel and electric for GO Transit while VIA Rail and Amtrak continue to use diesel locomotives for their passenger trains However! There's word that in the future, there will be a return of Amtrak from Chicago to Toronto, Ontario, Canada with the expansion of the Wolverine service and it should begin service in 2027 in Canada and it will be serving at least 8 Amtrak trains with the Maple Leaf and the Wolverine in the Toronto area What I see in Peterborough is a potential GO Transit and VIA Rail hub as GO Transit should have a line to Peterborough, but I would like to see GO Transit extend all the way to Ottawa, Sudbury and Kingston, Ontario But I would consider Kingston as the future extension of the Lakeshore East Line as it would take GO Transit only 2 hours to go from Toronto to Kingston, Ontario, Canada and it should be worth it as it would avoid conflict with freight trains and it should help VIA Rail as well in order to reduce delays However! The North Toronto station needs to be renovated for GO Transit services and future VIA Rail services as well VIA Rail needs to have more high speed rail in Toronto and surrounding areas, but we need more VIA Rail corridors than just one in order to improve VIA Rail service and it needs to avoid conflict with freight trains
I would like to point out that within the GTA pass passengers do not have to pay different fares between transit agencies. There is now the one fair program where you can switch between agencies so that is no longer a problem.
“The waterfront east extension will probably take longer than ten Ontario line to build.” Meanwhile my 12 year old daughter wasn’t even conceived yet when the Eglinton crosstown’s shovel went in the ground. Who’s really the incompetent organization of the two?
All of these projects have been proposed for even longer, the route of the Ontario Line was proposed in the 1910s and the Eglinton Crosstown and Finch West were proposed in the 90s (those two might've been the 2000s tho)
While ago, transit, maybe to infrequent to run a reliable service at the moment that is going to change with go expansion, though we should have a short term solution until the expansion is completed
They do not need to buy new sets of EMUs and their system where a lot of the service is on CN and CP tracks who will not allow electrification. The ideal trains would be Stadler FLIRTs which can run as Diesel Electric Multiple Units or Electric Multiple units so no need to change modes. Since GO has a lot of bi-levels a solution would be to convert them to Flirt like service by adding a power unit as the FLIRTS have and putting them in a group of 6 bi-levels. The end two bi-levels would be cab cars then the next car in would be a standard bi-level or accessibility coach then on either side of the power unit would be a powered coach. The power to weight ratio with 1/3 of the coaches powered is similar to modern EMU equipment and would provide better acceleration. The lake shore line runs 10 minute service now so getting it up to every 15 minutes has already happened. Lakeshore East Stouffleville each will have only 2 tracks from Union to Scarborough as there is no room for an extra express track on each and according to the latest plans each will run on separate tracks, but that can change. There would be no need to run a mix of diesel and electric trains as this equipment can run on both power systems. Further more the equipment can keep running during a power failure and since the cars can get their power from the overhead in the yards there would be no need to have some one go around and plug the cars in at the end of service and unplug them at the start. GO studies showed that EMUs can cut about 25% from the existing running times so less equipment to run the existing service. In case you have been out of touch with reality Presto is now a one fare system for the GTHA so remove that part of your video as it is wrong. Trying to replace line 2 with the Milton line is not possible as it does not run close enough nor have enough stops. Forget about North Toronto Sub as CP will never let you run that level of service, especially electric on their lines. TTC line 1 has the ETCS so it is already here so it will work but the problem is VIA and CN and to some extent CP have trackage rights to run on GO lines so the system has to be compatible with their trains. You guys need to get your heads out of your arses and do some real research into what is practical and stop thinking in the predefined modes of Metrostinks.
No, GO Transit should not be serving London, Ontario. VIA provides better service between London and Toronto. For example, VIA offers Business Class (Club Car) service on their trains to London. GO would not offer the same thing. And at 5:14, there is no double fare to go from York Region Transit to the TTC now. There is one fare integration now in the GTA and has been for several months prior to this video being released.
The GO service on the north Mail Line was designed to fail. VIA has faster service to Toronto. It should have been designed to provide service between London, Stratford, Kitchener and Guelph
@@brentfoster9138 Only recently. The relevant amendments were made in 2019. Prior to that the city/TTC was working on the subway extension to STC, the DRL (with Metrolinx assisting in some of the design) and the Crosstown West extension, which was branded as part of SmartTrack. The Crosstown and Finch West LRT were funded by the province (with some federal funding) so it was their call.
You do realize that GO transit is a very different system than the TTC. You can't compare subway trains that are for short distances over comutter trains for longer distances. And GO transit to London was tried but went back to Via rail. You do realize that the province is responsible for the subway and the Crosstown LRT ( the LRT still has no opening date, thanks for nothing Doug Ford!).
This Video is a waste of time. My Opnion is how can Doug Ford build more trains or LRTS or dig more subways tunnels or LRT Tunnels or the infamous that makes no sense word on the street says in toronto ontario build a massive underground highway 401 tunnel when young adults and adults are not working theres NO JOb in ontario most still living with Seniors mom and father at home or apartment and others homeless people how can doug ford build all of these massive among massive multi billion dollar transit projects on Empty Tax money in the goverment pocket like doug ford or federal government when this issue of young adults adults not working not producing tax money is not only toronto ontario or all of ontario but canada wide all of canada to like word of streets in toronto people says Makes NO sense from doug ford well those are words of the streets in toronto ontario people says i hear not from me
One comment on fare integration: I think the long term plan should be to have an option similar to what's available in Germany, where you can get an unlimited country-wide pass for just €50/month. We should do something like this in Ontario, covering all the various transit agencies. If an agency wants to receive provincial funds, they need to be part of a singular fare system, with province wide options for monthly passes to get you anywhere you need to go without paying extra.
this would be absolutley huge for people in rural areas if northlander and intra-province via trips can get bundled in!
Germany has regional fare agencies which have existed well before the _Deutschlandticket_.
Looking at the map of potential intermediate stations, I think John Tory saddled the system with a bad legacy in his proposal for a King-Liberty stop. A better option would have been a Fort York station at Bathurst and Front, the last point where the Lakeshore West, Kitchener and Barrie lines share the same corridor. It would give high frequency, high capacity service for people travelling from the downtown core to Liberty Village and the east side of Parkdale. It would also mean shorter trip times and easier transfers for anyone coming from the north whose destination is in the west, and vice versa. If Go was running EMUs you could support the short spacing between Fort York and King-Liberty, or Fort York and Exhibition, but with loco hauled trains it doesn’t make sense.
Front-Spadina should absolutely happen and *Should* link up with the Ontario Line to act as a Shoulder station similar to East Harbor but with more lines
Another solution to integration, from a governance perspective, might be to make the individual transit agencies divisions of Metrolinx, and provide the municipalities a greater degree of influence within the organization.
does anyone agree for a go train service to Peterborough, Brantford, or Orangeville?
absolutley. extend the lakeshore east up to peterborough and then back down to kingston.
@@famitory it would be better if an entire new service was ran from Toronto to peterborough while lakeshore east continues directly east bound
Orangeville: No. Low ridership and the old OBRY corridor is too curvy to maintain any speed to compete with a bus.
Brantford: This is VIA's area since they already have to use that corridor. Adding GO would just burn money.
Peterborough: Possibly.
Agreed. Service to Peterborough would be better on the CP line, replicating the old Via service to Havelock. But we all know that CPKC doesn’t like any passenger service on their tracks or in their corridor. And, being a federally-regulated railway, they can tell the province to get lost if they come asking.
Hell yeah for Peterborough on the GO transit.
We need a system like London where you can use TfL (Transport For London - Underground, Overground, Bus) or National Rail services throughout London and the surrounding area with either an Oyster (like Presto) card, or any contactless credit card (physical cards or on your smartphone - better than Oyster in the sense which is a stored value card you need top top up) and you get the best fare automatically for your journey. Also a daily/weekly/monthly cap is applied based on what zones you travel within, or to/from. You can create an account if you want to (not mandatory) which will allow you to review your journeys & charges online. Based on your journeys payments are distributed in a calculated ratio between TfL or the National Rail provider to keep the service provider happy. There's really no reason this couldn't work between the TTC and Metrolinx the way it does between TfL and National Rail companies.
I think GO should run EMUs on shortened routes with more frequent stops, mostly within Toronto. The traditional Bi-level diesel electric trains can continue to service all full routes at minimum 30min intervals, with some stops skipped so they act more like express trains compared to the EMU routes that would stop more frequently
I’ve never been to Toronto and I’m not familiar with the geography but I think there should be a circle/loop line going around downtown connecting all the lines together. It would take pressure of Union Station and encourage growth outside of the city core. I don’t know if this is even feasible or what right of way this would take. If a new right if way is needed then land acquisition alone would be a significant challenge
There basically already is though
Your right
That's basically the goal of the Ontario Line and the Eglinton Line.
Thanks for keeping me informed of my transit options,
A high farebox recovery ratio means that the transport agency is able to cover a certain or all of the costs of operating the service.
This has nothing to do with profitability as it does not include ancillary sources of revenue and does not include maintenance costs and capital expenditure.
While YRT may have a 50% farebox recovery compared to the TTC's 60%, it would be much cheaper to subsidise the YRT, as its only buses and BRT's as they are cheaper to operate.
Amtrak has a 95% recovery ratio but has never been profitable.
Isn’t the one fare recently implemented? That was announced not too long ago
Yes, months before this video coming out.
The point he's making is that using GO transit within Toronto should be allowed with TTC fares. One Fare program eliminates double fares but still makes riders pay the higher GO fare. So TTC riders will still opt for longer bus rides in order to use the cheaper ttc fare.
@@issedoesit279fare Zones are already a thing for most American Commuter Rail systems
I would like to say regarding stations is that both Milton line and Peterborough line trains can serve both Union Station and North Toronto station, it will make the crowds go from packed to the most busiest stations in Toronto with not one, but two GO Transit stations.
Both with diesel power, if EMUs on GO Transit and Diesel come across on the preservative of Toronto's Union Station. It will become train station in Canadian history to serve both diesel and electric for GO Transit while VIA Rail and Amtrak continue to use diesel locomotives for their passenger trains
However! There's word that in the future, there will be a return of Amtrak from Chicago to Toronto, Ontario, Canada with the expansion of the Wolverine service and it should begin service in 2027 in Canada and it will be serving at least 8 Amtrak trains with the Maple Leaf and the Wolverine in the Toronto area
What I see in Peterborough is a potential GO Transit and VIA Rail hub as GO Transit should have a line to Peterborough, but I would like to see GO Transit extend all the way to Ottawa, Sudbury and Kingston, Ontario
But I would consider Kingston as the future extension of the Lakeshore East Line as it would take GO Transit only 2 hours to go from Toronto to Kingston, Ontario, Canada and it should be worth it as it would avoid conflict with freight trains and it should help VIA Rail as well in order to reduce delays
However! The North Toronto station needs to be renovated for GO Transit services and future VIA Rail services as well
VIA Rail needs to have more high speed rail in Toronto and surrounding areas, but we need more VIA Rail corridors than just one in order to improve VIA Rail service and it needs to avoid conflict with freight trains
I would like to point out that within the GTA pass passengers do not have to pay different fares between transit agencies. There is now the one fair program where you can switch between agencies so that is no longer a problem.
“The waterfront east extension will probably take longer than ten Ontario line to build.”
Meanwhile my 12 year old daughter wasn’t even conceived yet when the Eglinton crosstown’s shovel went in the ground.
Who’s really the incompetent organization of the two?
I suppose building something very inefficiently is better than not building anything at all
All of these projects have been proposed for even longer, the route of the Ontario Line was proposed in the 1910s and the Eglinton Crosstown and Finch West were proposed in the 90s (those two might've been the 2000s tho)
While ago, transit, maybe to infrequent to run a reliable service at the moment that is going to change with go expansion, though we should have a short term solution until the expansion is completed
They do not need to buy new sets of EMUs and their system where a lot of the service is on CN and CP tracks who will not allow electrification. The ideal trains would be Stadler FLIRTs which can run as Diesel Electric Multiple Units or Electric Multiple units so no need to change modes. Since GO has a lot of bi-levels a solution would be to convert them to Flirt like service by adding a power unit as the FLIRTS have and putting them in a group of 6 bi-levels. The end two bi-levels would be cab cars then the next car in would be a standard bi-level or accessibility coach then on either side of the power unit would be a powered coach. The power to weight ratio with 1/3 of the coaches powered is similar to modern EMU equipment and would provide better acceleration.
The lake shore line runs 10 minute service now so getting it up to every 15 minutes has already happened. Lakeshore East Stouffleville each will have only 2 tracks from Union to Scarborough as there is no room for an extra express track on each and according to the latest plans each will run on separate tracks, but that can change.
There would be no need to run a mix of diesel and electric trains as this equipment can run on both power systems. Further more the equipment can keep running during a power failure and since the cars can get their power from the overhead in the yards there would be no need to have some one go around and plug the cars in at the end of service and unplug them at the start. GO studies showed that EMUs can cut about 25% from the existing running times so less equipment to run the existing service.
In case you have been out of touch with reality Presto is now a one fare system for the GTHA so remove that part of your video as it is wrong. Trying to replace line 2 with the Milton line is not possible as it does not run close enough nor have enough stops. Forget about North Toronto Sub as CP will never let you run that level of service, especially electric on their lines.
TTC line 1 has the ETCS so it is already here so it will work but the problem is VIA and CN and to some extent CP have trackage rights to run on GO lines so the system has to be compatible with their trains. You guys need to get your heads out of your arses and do some real research into what is practical and stop thinking in the predefined modes of Metrostinks.
No, GO Transit should not be serving London, Ontario. VIA provides better service between London and Toronto. For example, VIA offers Business Class (Club Car) service on their trains to London. GO would not offer the same thing.
And at 5:14, there is no double fare to go from York Region Transit to the TTC now. There is one fare integration now in the GTA and has been for several months prior to this video being released.
The GO service on the north Mail Line was designed to fail. VIA has faster service to Toronto. It should have been designed to provide service between London, Stratford, Kitchener and Guelph
5:56 not possible as the TTC is publicly owned and operated, whereas all the other surrounding areas are privately
The TTC is less involved in transit expansion due to provincial legislation.
By design.
@@brentfoster9138 Only recently. The relevant amendments were made in 2019. Prior to that the city/TTC was working on the subway extension to STC, the DRL (with Metrolinx assisting in some of the design) and the Crosstown West extension, which was branded as part of SmartTrack. The Crosstown and Finch West LRT were funded by the province (with some federal funding) so it was their call.
Also the Bombardier dual power locomotives will only haul 8 coaches in diesel mode so they are basically useless.
You do realize that GO transit is a very different system than the TTC. You can't compare subway trains that are for short distances over comutter trains for longer distances. And GO transit to London was tried but went back to Via rail. You do realize that the province is responsible for the subway and the Crosstown LRT ( the LRT still has no opening date, thanks for nothing Doug Ford!).
Metrolinx is stacked with TTC pensioners anyway. No employee raiding necessary.
Give this guy a job, why can’t our province figure this out
Provincial should by TTC
Some of these proposals you are making are somewhat Misguided
This Video is a waste of time. My Opnion is how can Doug Ford build more trains or LRTS or dig more subways tunnels or LRT Tunnels or the infamous that makes no sense word on the street says in toronto ontario build a massive underground highway 401 tunnel when young adults and adults are not working theres NO JOb in ontario most still living with Seniors mom and father at home or apartment and others homeless people how can doug ford build all of these massive among massive multi billion dollar transit projects on Empty Tax money in the goverment pocket like doug ford or federal government when this issue of young adults adults not working not producing tax money is not only toronto ontario or all of ontario but canada wide all of canada to like word of streets in toronto people says Makes NO sense from doug ford well those are words of the streets in toronto ontario people says i hear not from me