Antitheist: Not just an Atheist
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ต.ค. 2024
- This clip is from The Atheist Experience, Episode 27.35 for September 3, 2023 with Forrest Valkai and Armin Navabi
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I spent many years as an atheist debating against anti-theism. I had that kind of "Can't we all just get along," mentality. I've come to realize that no, we can't. In principal, I still say that simply believing there is a god is not a problem in and of itself, but in practice it's a different story. If not "theism," at the very least some religions really need to go. The amount of anguish I've witnessed from people over religious indoctrination alone is enough. It's sickening in many cases.
I think you are full of it. Spent many years debating anti-theists. Where did you find all these anti-theists you were debating. Like that was a thing 15 years ago. Very few people identify as an anti-theist.
@@Arbadee.PayZaLee Wow, you're a bright one. I didn't say it was a job. Beyond that, I'm 58 years old and I can assure you anti-theism has been a thing for a lot longer than 15 years. To specifically answer your stupid question. Back in the late 90's there was a chat program called Dalnet IRC and a chat room called "Atheist vs Christian Debate." I spent quite a bit of time in there debating all manner of people including anti-theists. That was 25 years ago. Besides is there some finite number of years that constitutes "many?" 15 wouldn't have been enough? What made you think it would be something worth lying about anyway. As if somehow it would change the point of the comment. 🙄
@@Arbadee.PayZaLeeI think you’re full of it,I’m 62 years old and a life long Atheist and I’ve known and still know many Anti-Theists and as @somersetcace1 said that goes back way longer than 15 years,I’m guessing you’re a youngster and just not to well informed yet but do you’re research and you will see that we’re not full of anything just stating facts..,
There's a reason it's "anti-theism" and not "anti-deism." If you believe your God made all of reality and then fucked off somewhere to be left alone, we can get along. If you believe your God created reality and then also thought it was important to micromanage all of humanity, and by the way if you don't like it, you just get tortured for eternity, then, well... peace was never an option.
@@t3rcx I'm not sure if your comment was directed to me or not. However, I believe you mean there's a difference between deism and some organized religions. "Theism," simply means the belief in a god or gods. So "anti-theism" would be against ANY belief in ANY god. And there are those that hold that position based on the notion that any such belief is irrational and can ultimately lead to negative consequences for society. However, I don't disagree with you. I don't see where it contradicts what I said. Which is why I'm wondering if maybe that wasn't directed to me?
As an atheist anti-theist it's obvious we don't have anything against theists, but to their beliefs and their ideology because theists are also victims of their religion, that is a fact.
Don't jump the gun there. Anyone is capable of being a hateful asshole, that includes atheists and anti-theists. Especially in the case of anti-theists (which I am btw), opposition of some form is inherent and hating the people is a form of opposition.
I very much have something against many theists. Those who actively spread their hatred and bigotry are perpetrators, not victims. Every single person who says "Hate the sin, love the sinner" in regards to homosexuals can go eff themselves.
I have something against some theists. Some of them are knowingly manipulative and thrive on the ignorance of others. Facilitated by religion.
But not the majority of theists, indeed.
You cannot be an atheist and a antitheist at the same time. One is a disbelief or lack of belief and the other is a belief that contradicts a disbelief or lack of belief. Atheists have no burden of proof whereas antitheists incur a burden of proof when they say there is no god or gods. Be careful not to confuse the two.
What is a person if not his/her ideas, values, beliefs, and so on? If a person holds opinions you don't like or respect, what is it about this person that you like?
EXCELLENT answer Forrest. I wish there are more anti-theist/theism in the world today.
You mean Armin! Armin fully answered the question. Forrest quoted Hitchens (slightly off topic, but any Hitchens quote will relate anyway).
Armin fully answered the entire thing on his own, I mean he said every relevant point, I had about 2 ideas, he said about 10, and he fully flowed them all out. Excellent work Armin.
are you ?
@@kimsland999 Don't you mean Aron, as in Aron Ra?
@@jerrylong6238 On this show were Forrest & Armin.
On this segment Armin fully answered the caller.
Good news is, that number has almost certainly been increasing over time!
I oppose anything that is clearly so wrong and is taught as fact to young and vulnerable people!
Agreed. Religions actually are harmful to children in their development, they promote vulgarity and violence and undermine societal rules.
Yeah here in Oklahoma, PragerU just became approved educational material for k-12. It is really disheartening.
Because the republican party gave evangelicals too much power, so they will push the religious dogma into the secular government.
I told my republican friend that evangelical republicans will do all they can to make the United States of America, into the divided state of theocracy.
@@SleepFaster18 Well...that's terrible news.
I'm so glad someone called with this question because I too feel like I have got to the point of anti-thiesism. When people bring up religion my blood boils. Nothing but a burden on society that creates gullible idiots to manipulate. It's disgusting 🤢
TH-cam atheists, especially Forrest and Paulogia, are why I finally shed my Christianity a few months ago. Also two very dear atheist friends who put up with my Christianity for decades. They, like so many atheist YTers, never showed the slightest contempt for me - just what I'd been indoctrinated into believing.
I'm not aware of any online atheist would attack you, and not your (previous outdated nonsense) belief.
Lets say an atheist did in fact attack you when you were a believing persecuted (Lol) Christian. I'd say you would have had 10 replies by atheist telling the personal attacking atheist off.
Many times when I converse with Christians I find that they fully feel I'm attacking them! Far from it.
They seem to somehow believe their absurd beliefs are them. That even if I were able to help guide the Christian to finally reason!! That I would somehow be hurting them (too many examples to provide). Clearly I'm not attacking the Christian person, nor would I attack the wonderful loving children of the KKK, but their beliefs? HORRIFIC.
In saying that; it is reasonable to conclude that IF a person was a believer in utter nonsense, for decades or since they were 6 to 60, then yes there probably are significant concerns for the PERSON irrespective of their previous irrational beliefs in a monster God. In other words there may be some horrible side effects or gullibility or something that is still a concern for such a long term theist.
I feel this type of concern is too quickly brushed over. When Christians finally see reason and say: Oh yeah there's no known evidence for a God, plus we should withhold belief on a God until after the evidence is shown > it makes sense now. Even these people may have some underlining unresolved issues, such as fear of Christian Hell for claimed Jesus sins! Even as an atheist!
The secular therapy project was designed for recovered or recovering theists.
My view is that you should accept and be open about: Once you were extremely poor at reasoning (at least on this 1 subject of an immoral sexist monster God existing), and even though it may have caused (natural) anger or sadness to finally work out it was nonsense belief, and you'd been obviously mislead by likely other men of the church; that you: Openly accept this time in your life allowed you to be the person you are today, good or bad, you are better off preferring truth over ridiculous no sense nonsense outdated claims of a God existing.
Therefore, yes its about beliefs only. Even if Christians believe they're being persecuted!!!
But yes as a person, you must take responsibility that you yourself believed in this utter nonsense (likely being mislead by others) and this horror has made you better off by being the person you are today. It literally in part of your life.
I'm a forever atheist, it saddens me the human mind can be so corrupted to believe in such a monster God. Even if the Jesus God were true, we'd be better off striking the monster down. Thankfully the Jesus Bible God is utterly ridiculous, therefore I doubt the Jesus filth exists, very much so.
I have long term friends who are christians but the subject is never discussed between us. What gets my hackles up is being lectured on my supposed lack of morality by christians who have never met me, because I refuse to worship a g0d that slaughtered infants to punish the parents according to what those lecturing me believe to be true. At that point, I will always give as good as I get.
@@holgerlubotzki3469 Plus he drowned pregnant women and their foetuses (and everyone).
Plus he had other people of other lands slaughter everyone in certain places (except young virgins of course).
Plus... ok the amount of people this God killed is horrendous. He's like the most immoral monster God a Christian could ever think of.
There's only been one atheist TH-camr I've taken issue with. I think they're called Cosmic Skeptic or similar. And that's because they misrepresented actions that occurred around our late Queen's funerary procession in order to decry the British constitutional monarchy as a dictatorship.
@@nealjroberts4050 as a republicanist even I know the royals couldn't be blamed for the heavy handed tactics of the police.
That was down to the numpties who run the government.
I have been an atheist since I was in catechism at 4 years old. I had never heard the term anti-theist, until my 20 year old son informed me I was one! It felt like he gave me the correct label, finally, after nearly 5 decades on the planet.
If you are opposed to theism then you are a antitheist. If you maintain that there is no god or gods then you are a antitheist and have a burden of proof. If you merely disbelieve or have a lack of belief in the existence of a god or gods then you are an atheist and have no burden of proof.
Edit: I am a agnostic atheist, but at times I oppose theism outright because the concept for a god or gods has no proof of concept.
@@ministryofarguments3525 I would have to disagree with you partially in that,I don’t see an Anti-Theist as someone who dismisses the existence of any god and therefore shoulders a burden of proof,I see it as Forest explained it here in that his views as an Atheist stand true but he also feels that religion in general is toxic and harmful and the world would be better without it and he obviously has reasons for thinking that which he happily explains,But I’ve never heard him say categorically that there are no gods just that there’s no evidence of any..
@@cutoverpark5744 Basically a antitheist is against the theist belief that a god or gods exist. In other words a antitheist does not believe that a god or gods exist but has no way to prove that. They are the complete opposite to a theist that does believe that a god or gods exist but has no way to prove that. Both the theist and antitheist have a burden of proof for what they believe.
Forest has qualified himself as been an atheist like myself that disbelieves in the existence of a god or gods and on occasions opposes the theist belief outright. He hasn't committed himself to being a antitheist that does not believe in the existence of a god or gods, he disbelieves and has no burden of proof.
Edit: If you believe in something, whether that be positive or negative, then you have a burden of proof. If you disbelieve (you are not saying you believe) then you have no burden of proof for a belief.
@@ministryofarguments3525 definitions are made up. Your definition is no more correct than the other widely accepted one. He isn't any less committed than others.
What decides if they have a burden of proof is whether they *believe* that it's one way or the other. Thus, there are lots of anti-theists with no burden of proof.
I think the world needs MORE open anti-theists.
You should check out The Magic Skeptic! He is an open anti theist in his "most annoying religious people" series.
@JimCastleberry
What's your point?
@@JimCastleberry Sorry, but that wasn't anti-theism. That was just plain ole everyday might-make-right brutalism. The same thing that was used by Christianity when it made its way around the world by the sword torturing and slaughtering anyone who wouldn't change to Christianity. This door swings both ways buddy, you really don't want to go there.
I believe his point is on top of his noggin.@@jonclark8252
@@jerrylong6238
And they got their facts wrong too!
I thank lady luck, I live in a country where the majority of people don't care about whether you believe in gods or not.
I'm forever thankful I live in a country that was built by criminals and not religious bigots, and there's a bloody big ocean between me and the USA.
And 🍻 for being first.
@@ookekklibarianbornagain6708 yeah, I've always believed it was a mistake to send our criminals instead of our toffs.
@@joshsheridan9511 You mean that it was a mistake not to send the *ACTUAL* criminals!
Some ancestors were Officers and not convicts! Whilst that was the minority there were still non convicts who colonized the lands.
@@kimsland999 and those officers must have pissed off the powers that be, big time to receive that particular posting.
If a medical textbook contains a bunch of good information about human beings but also says that humans have hollow bones and can fly if they flap their arms really hard, you throw out the whole book, you don’t try to delve into it to find the “good parts”. Once a source of info promotes falsehoods as truth, it can no longer be trusted at all and should be abandoned.
@jaylebo2025 Those who know Christ in a relationship rather than through a religion by walking and sharing with Him, know He speaks Truth in His Word and His Word is trustworthy.
@@wwlib5390
No one knows Christ, grow up.
@@wwlib5390
And that's why you excused the genocide
@@wwlib5390We get it, you have an imaginary friend. When you say, "I have no religion, just a personal relationship with God", that's what it comes down to.
@@wwlib5390 you are not in a relationship with Christ any more than you are in a friendship with your imaginary friend. A relationship is a two way connection that can be demonstrated to other people. You feel things and attribute them to God or Christ. The two are NOT the same.
His Word is also crap. He preaches that people should abandon their families to become slaves to God, and that slaves should serve their masters with fear and reverence, as they would serve God.
The God you believe in is evil. Fortunately, He’s also fictional.
I think all concepts of “God” are actually harmful. Nothing should be “The God.” Worse yet, is how people react when they believe they found it.
Thoughts of God bring me comfort like nothing else. Joy! Yet, i think I understsnd atheism because this life is full of disappointments and anxiety. But, the comfort that I get from God is real. Many of my stresses in life come from aging and plain weariness. I have had cancer. I look forward to God giving me a new body that can never grow old. In this life even my teath wear out - it's a temporary body and a blessing, but it causes me to hope in Jesus who promised to keep me safe in whats eternally important - or I'd fall like the atheist. Some people may say I am delusional, but I have solid hope and comfort. When I look at the stars at night I see the handiwork of my creator. As God can create the stars , he will do greater things for me because I will be eternal and the present stars will be replaced at the end of the age.
Unbelievers need to get away from the cities and gaze at the stars at night.
I can't think of a time when I did not believe in Jesus. The unbeliever hates God because Satan is the god of this world, the unbelievers follow Satan - who wishes that they be destroyed in hell, because Satan knows that hell is his destiny - he wants to take as many with him as he can. When the unbelievers rant against God, it is almost the words of Satan. There are millions of demons who can easily control the minds of unbelievers. For now God restrains Satan or murders and human suffering would be a thousand times greater than it currently is . Jesus defeated death on death's terms, he will use the folly of Satan - then with one word he will extinguish evil. The believer uses human weakness and the power of faith to win in this evil world.
@@timothykeith1367 The reason I'm an Atheist is because I've never held a belief in any gods/god.
The reason I'm still an Atheist is because no theist has been able to provide any verifiable/repeatable evidence for their gods/god.
Do you happen to have any verifiable/repeatable evidence for your version of bible god?
@@timothykeith1367 We atheists don't hate god. We don't believe in god, so there is nothing to hate.
We (or I) do hate the concept of god, the god-belief, that makes some other people do things that they otherwise would never contemplate, and those actions and ideas affect us too.
I value truth over comfort. There lies a difference between us.
@@timothykeith1367 "Thoughts of God bring me comfort like nothing else."
It's a shame you have no proof of concept for a God. All your feelings for a God are in vain.
@@timothykeith1367
It's your dehumanising claims that all nonbelievers are evil or pawns of evil is what fuels antitheism.
Forrest you are so special, love you mate greetings from Australia
Too bloody right🍻
Hello fellow Aussie 🤠
@@smochygrice465 tally ho
It's rough for employees who aren't religious working in a mostly religious workplace. Can't really ever be outspoken on the matter, have to stay quiet. And overall just avoid all religious discussions all together. Feel like a spy because they just assume I believe what they believe. Without ever asking lol
Are you a Bishop in the Church of England? 😅
It's rough but not impossible. I'm not exactly outspoken in a "debate me, bro" way, but everbody knows I'm an atheist who thinks that religion does more harm than good. I did it in baby steps, starting from people that I trust, asking simple questions like "do you think people who follow other religions are bad people", and "If you stop believing in a god, do you suddenly become a bad person". Many people confuse religiosity with morality, but when you state it like this (a kinda Socratic approach) you'll get them to realize and admit that the former isn't correlated to the latter. Once you've done that, you can say that you're an atheist without them freaking out, and you go on from there answering any questions they have with a smile and constantly reminding them that thinking that religion is a bad/stupid idea doesn't mean that religious people are bad/stupid themselves. Of course you'll never get religious people to say that religion is harmful, but I'm happy that they know what I think and are still in good terms with me. I get the occasional "you're gonna burn in hell, buddy" (always in jest) to which I answer with things like "damn, that free heating is really gonna help with my electricity bill", but nobody really has a problem with my non-belief. I've come to the conclusion that the religious know that their claims are ridiculous, so they need to affirm them constantly, and perhaps they still do it when I'm not around but they avoid having the really stupid discussions (like sharing the witnessing of miracles) in front of me.
It's really important to let people know that there are other views on the matter, and that people who don't share your belief aren't bad people. Having said that, if you or anyone reading this believes that their job security is at stake and they don't have many options, staying quiet on religious discussions may be the way to go.
Same..100% relatable.
I am now working as an intern in a institution of healthcare with most Catholics.. and the banters of the nurses about sinning to the Lord thus the labor, the sin of not being married, and so forth.. and on the other side promoting sterility, family planning, telling kids to go to school... like, wth!! The cognitive dissonance is so strong with healthcare professionals..
Those employees should find employment elsewhere and quit. It’s not worth the aggravation of dealing with theistic nonsense. There are plenty of secular, even atheistic, workplaces and npos that would be honored to have them.
@@nedrostram2360 I agree, it's much better if you can change to different environment. But it's not always possible, and it's definitely not always easy. Assuming you find such a job in a secular workplace, it may be out of town, with longer commute, or starting at a lower position and/or less well paid. What's more, you can't know in advance what kind of environment you'll work in, and even if management is committed to keeping religion out of the workplace, one may still face distrust and lack of support by colleagues.
If we're honest, "just leave" despite being the best option overall, is easier said than done. It helps having an effective approach for being in relatively good terms with your religious coworkers, even if you can't win them all (and usually you can't).
Whenever a Christian talks about the "good parts of the Bible" to balance out the bad, I have a simple question - how do you determine those parts are "good"? Because that right there shows that there is a morality that exists completely without the Bible (otherwise it would *all* be good by the very dint of it existing in the Bible). My followup question is then why involve the Bible at all if you already have a good moral system that exists without it?
I love it when Forrest goes on a rant!
Im an anti-theist. We should have more.
Same here
I am too and i use to be Christian but I saw the disgusting things that religion does to people and the hate it causes and it makes me furious
Carlos didn't get to say much but I still loved it. I'm an avid antitheist but with the luxury of living in one of the least religious countries in the world (Czechia) where you always find someone agreeing with you at hand within 2 seconds.
I wish it were like that here in Oklahoma.
I'm atheist and anti-theist. I see no reason to think any gods exist and I oppose theism because it promotes ignorance, conflict and illogical arguments
I feel as though the world would be far better secular. Like the muslim golden age which allowed all religions and the rate that they learnt about math and the universe increased exponentially as a result. I think that without illogical beliefs based on ignorance and very poor "evidence" we would enter a golden age of discovery
@@369spartan atheist = disbelief in existence of gods
We can prove materials exist
@@drsatan9617 Anti theist such as no Gods exist, or that specifically no God devised by man (religious Gods) exist?
You can't say no Gods exist but maybe he's hiding in the scum of a buck somewhere and its just that no one has ever checked?
Its the black swan fallacy to say no Gods exist, it really depends upon your definition of anti theistic Gods, or anti deity / any Gods?
However I tend to agree with you ;)
Correct, we may be taking vacations to Mars already instead of Hawaii if the dam church hadn't burned so many great scientists at the stake for Heresy.
Atheist and agnostic are the same dam thing.@@369spartan
@@jerrylong6238
You're in for a treat there 😉
I'm with Forrest, I am an Antitheist for the exact same reasons he is.
I absolutely love Forrest Valkai and his philosophy of life. Also, that was a great explanation of the pitfalls inherent in religious literature.
Armin's story about when he used to be Muslim prior to Carlos calling, plus the way religion is used to condone things like slavery and transphobia shows that religion is harmful. Makes me glad I was never a believer of any religion, and makes me feel sorry for those that are forced into the religious ways of backwards thinking.
Why is this difficult?
Foolish beliefs cause foolish behaviour...
It doesn't matter who holds them or where they come from.
The less foolish beliefs there are in the world the more self evidently it better it becomes for anyone...
Forrest is going to be a legend of the cause!!
I love Armin’s channel. Great content and good laughs.
Armin and Forrest make a great team making good points one after the other.
I love the Coqui sound in the background. A True Puerto Rican experience!!
the coqui outside my window here in hawaii begs to disagree with you! haha.
Program a computer
to be an atheist,
and another
to be a
theist
and
have
them
debate.
Now, THAT
would so be a
MASTER DEBATE! 😂
Holy crap! That's golden.
I was scrolling through YT and saw one of my favorite science communicators and so I clicked to watch and was was surprised to hear him refer to me as a disease. I was going to comment something mean but stopped myself and tried to reflect on why I wanted to do that. I realized it wasn’t because I was angry but because I was feeling hurt and saddened. As a gay man I am used to hearing people say that a part of my identity is “a cancer on society” but it honestly hadn’t happened from someone I respected before.
Most people have no understanding of or experience with Philosophy. They have never experienced reverence for wisdom and epistemology outside of the shining bits wrapped in the confusion of religious tradition. What they revere in part in their holy books is found in whole of the works of great philosophers.
Forest quoted the Professor Brothers!🤣 It comes from "2 things I hate: 1. Martial arts, all kinds and 2. Breath, all kinds."
I love Forest
Oh, i was wondering what that bit at 7:50 was about... Or even if i heard it right. 😅
As a Christian, this is interesting to see the different perspective of religion.
As an anti-theist, I take the same line that (I presume) your faith takes about homosexuality: “Love the sinner - hate the sin”.
So I guess what I’m saying is that I respect, value and would protect you as a human as with all humans, but it’s important that you know that I consider your entire faith, god, and its book to be a horrendous, toxic, evil cancer on society, and my moral duty to oppose, combat and destroy, in the name of human decency and solidarity. Take from that what you will. 🤷🏻♂️
I too came to the realization that I am an anti-thiest. I feel so liberated!
Religion should disappear through attrition and not edict. But it will take a loooong time. As of 2023 cigarette ads have been off the air in the U.S. longer than they were ever on including the "golden age" of radio. And in spite of 50+ years (2 generations) and every effort to tax, restrict or shame, roughly 15% of Americans combined still smoke/vape. Point being, that as long as there is an entity to promote it, it will survive.
Plenty smoke, but the numbers are reducing. Its why the filthy evil tobacco companies are pushing to hard into vaping. And essentially aiming it at children/youngsters (bright colors/ fruity flavours etc). 15% might be idiots now, but down from what? I will be interested to see the damage being done by vaping, i cant believe thats harmless.
There was a time when i would have considered myself an anti-theist. I dont really much care anymore. There are much bigger concerns around. Russia is waging a war against all of us in the west (pretty high chance of a nuclear war pretty soon) and global warming is fucking the world. Emperor penguins are pretty much doomed now, and thats just one species.
At this point, we are all doomed. Let the gullible believe whatever. Its all too late now. Fuck it.
I really like Armin's point about the sugar coated poison pill and marketing the bad by "tempering" it with some good sprinkled in.
Excellent point and well described.
Yeah I personally agree 100% with Forrest on anti-theism. I know it seems bullish, but I strongly believe that theism carries so much baggage that harms society as a whole. Religion makes people feel included, but it does so by drawing lines in the sand on who's the ingroup and who you immediately have a bias against.
If a society is built on a lie, than the only outcome will be harmful.
Forrest Thank you so much for all you do. 🍀🍀🍀
The fact is that everything good about any religion comes from outside the religion. Whoever invented the religion had the moral ideas they put into the religion separately from the context of the religion and any moral advancement made within a religious group only comes from questioning the existing beliefs of that religion and thus it is a secular advancement.
"I'm an anti-theist, not a misanthrope."
I'm both
Some people think that all anti-thesists are evil rude closed-minded mockers, liars, manipulators, worst theist´s enemies, hating God, loving sin, working for the devil, etc. That is not true, anti-thesists are just normal non-believers who refuted to be lukewarm on the subject.
Of course, there are many individuals which give antitheism (and atheism) a bad name. It is too easy to be rude and closed-minded and it is not that easy to be nice and open-minded, but it is worth to give it a try.
Wow, brilliant summary, Forrest!
I don’t know when I became an anti-thrust but I realized I was the moment I heard Christopher Hitchens use the term about 15-20 years ago.
Yes, but apatheist is more my cup of tea 😊
I wish the story Armin related just prior to this call because it was the most impactful thing I've heard on AXP and it perfectly exemplified why to be antitheist.
Runaway Dave! Runaway Dave!
Bravely bravely ran away!
I saw...
What a pathetic troll...
It's like he's so stupid he thinks we will all forget how pathetic he was if he deletes his drivel...
Bravo! Well said Forrest.
"no adult would do this again" that's a huge fucking assumption
there's no need to hate something that never existed
For me, as to the what about the good stuff question: Say I'm making you a cake. How much dog shite should I put into your cake? 1 scoop? 2? 3? Just in the cake or the icing, too?
I believe that I to am an anti-theist as I have, for several decades, thought that religion is dangerous to society.
i haven't even watched the video yet but i just wanted to answer the questions presented in the title straight away. Yes i am....and thanks for asking!
great clip!! thanks ya'all.
Thank you, Forest! Brilliant speech! Socially, religion harms my child because everyone she knows is religious, and she feels she has to hide that she is an atheist. She's only 12. Her friends can't come stay with her because their parents are so controlling and religiously restrictive. They are such fearful and suppressed people, and they can't even see it. They refuse to let their children be children. My child is lonely and feels like she has nowhere to belong. We can't really find atheists or atheist groups around us. It's very religiously toxic where we live. To me, religion is cold and teaches people to embrace hate and judgment. I have a friend who talks about god nonstop, to the point that I prefer to avoid her. Religion is harmful. I wish I could make my child's life better. Even though she's not religious, she still feels the harmful impact of religion.
I don't know about anyone trying to push Lord of the Rings as a Religion though, and trying to pretend that it's factual. Everyone knows it's Fiction. UNFORTUNATELY, that is Not the case with The Bible. Many people take it as fact and try to push those beliefs on others, Including trying to turn those fallacies into laws. 🤨
Thank you guys for you.
My problem is I live in a very religious area of the Philippines, I am totally surrounded by the Catholic church, I have children at school who are subjected to the teachings of the Bible and to speak against this would cause a big problem for me and my wife, to be honest I don't know anybody who will admit that they think it's all myth written by ancestors who didn't know better, the frustration I feel is quite depressing, to even question one single thing brings out hostile reaction. I really commend Forrest for standing up as a antithiest, perhaps I should do more, but I don't want to alienate my extended family, or my wife, anyway I really appreciate being able to watch you show to it makes me feel less isolated, thank you.
We're not atheists to be martyrs. Let the people who are willing to die for something they can't prove do so. You have your stance and you can do whatever is possible to heal the damage done to those around you. You and yours our priority. If making a fuss about theism in the area around you is something that will put you and your family at risk, then don't do it. It can be oppressive, but your safety is more important.
2:24 --> This is actually a precise description of my own thoughts on the matter.
Why not Lord of the Rings? Because as far as I know, no-one is using those stories as the basis for a religion & moral teaching.
What "good" parts of the Bible cannot be learned from a secular moral source? (eg: Humanitarianism) The Ten Commandments are often held up as an exemplary source of moral teachings, yet several condemn thought crimes (Thou shalt not covet your neighbour's property), place minor social offenses (Adultery - which shouldn't be a criminal offense) at the same level as the worst offenses in our society (murder - not merely homicide, which may have contextual justification), and omit the most heinous offenses altogether (incest, rape, slavery & genocide - each which is defended in different parts of the bible). A better question is - other than it being God's will - why we ought follow these commands? If there are secular, rationalistic methods of inferring & establishing these commandments as ethical/moral precepts, then why would you still need either God, or the threat of Hell (yet another utterly immoral concept), to follow them?
For that matter, how do you even judge "goodness" & "evil" in a religion which exalts something as vile as human sacrifice as a virtue? Does reframing slavery as "bond servitude" somehow make it any less immoral? Was what God did to Job immoral? Or is anything that God does automatically moral?
For you to even say that some parts of the Bible are either Good or Evil, you'd need an independent standard with which to judge it - such as those currently exemplified in our Secular, Egalitarian, Humanitarian, Progressive, Democratic Society.
Lord of the Rings does help us. It helps by promoting a similar story held in many mythical/fantasy stories, that evil should be cast into an active volcano.
It just so happens the Christian claimed God keeps fire far away from him (as written) even to the opposite ends of all of theology.
This informs me that fire may be God's kryptonite, maybe that's the answer to striking Jesus down? Its definitely worth a go.
Too bad its only a mythical/fantasy story though ;)
I'm a big fan of The Lord of The Rings. Great story, well written, internally consistent, quite unambiguous in its morality... and nobody has threatened me with eternal torture for not believing it.
It's interesting because Tolkien wrote his mythology to be consistent with his Catholicism yet never once preached at anyone. The comparisons with Narnia by his friend and Luthero-Anglican CS Lewis are intriguing.
@@nealjroberts4050 I remember as a youngster, after reading The Lord of The Rings I read everything I could find by Tolkien, then looked up other things, back then before the Internet, that mainly involved scouring the libraries, until I read Humphrey Carpenter's biography. I was a bit miffed to discover Tolkien's Catholicism was such a big thing to him... I felt that it somehow sullied his work and also that I should have detected the underlying prosetylisation. The fact is, you're right, Tolkien may have believed morality derived from the gospels, but his creation was entirely separate and contained no hidden analogies or preaching based upon religious doctrine.
Looking at it now, it's quite remarkable that it doesn't.
@@nealjroberts4050 As a kid, I had no idea of any Christian overtones in the Narnia novels. I just saw tropes which were commonplace throughout plenty of Fantasy & Sci-Fi stories. It wasn't until I re-read the books as an adult, that I saw just how blatant how all the little Christian (Anglican) easter eggs that C. S. Lewis had hidden were.
There's a scene in final volume of his Narnia Series, where all the various humans, monsters & beastkin (sentient, talking animals) line up in a vast queue in front of Aslan (the poorly disguised Jesus analog) to be judged. Those who "kept the faith" had joyous expressions as they walked through a doorway of light (presumably on to the aferlife), while those who denied him looked angry - then entered his shadow to vanish forever. Shortly after that, Narnia gets erased from existence.
As a less bloody & terrifying interpretation of The Biblical End Times - when Jesus returns to judge everyone - it's perhaps simpler, more coherent & poetic than the Biblical version.
Forrest, I'm still waiting for that quesadilla. 🙁
Being an anti-theist is difficult when other atheists say I'm an immature dick for being so outspoken.
How immature and outspoken of them! I recommend that you, with no hint of impatience, ask them whether they level the same criticism towards anyone else who is outspoken and talks freely about their theistic beliefs. And if they don't, then suggest that perhaps it's time they think carefully about why they don't, what they're really saying to you and why they're saying it. :-)
The social communities have a meeting center, churches, we have libraries... not quite the same
Thank you so much, just found this channel. I used to just refer to myself as a heretic, but now that I know the definition, I am sure I am an anti theist.
Honestly, I'd never heard the term until I started watching this channel.
If you need to pick and choose from a book in order to not be a horrible human being, why look to that book in the first place? Sure, it has good stuff, but A) that stuff isn't exclusive to it, and B) it does not balance out the countless horrific things it tells you. Why orient yourself through it at all?
Powerful stuff!
LOTR is a great work of fiction and not sold as factual at any point.
The problem with the word "antithesist" is that there are two VERY different definitions: the one described in the vid (being someone who opposes religion) and a person who makes the positive claim that no gods exist (a "positive" or "hard" atheist).
I'm definitely the first, but the second group are (weirdly), even MORE illogical than theists: both claims are unfalsifiable, but the theist claim is at least, theoretically, confirmable by having the deity show up; the (hard atheist) antithesist can't even, theoretically, manage this.
Due to the confusion regarding definition, I prefer the term "anti-religious" to describe my group.
This is a pointless argument.
Yes you CAN prove all gods are imaginary.
To exactly the same degree of certainty that you can prove ANYTHING is imaginary.
It is an irrelevant,irrelevant abstract, technicality to say that you can't.
If you cannot tell the difference between real and imaginary, then both words become absolutely meaningless.
Are elephants that can fly by flapping their ears real or imaginary... ?
Can you pour water in the engine of your car and pray for it to turn into petrol or diesel? Is that imaginary nonsense or not?
Can you fix a broken TV set by asking the creator of the universe (and everything in it) to fix it? Is that imaginary nonsense or not?
How do you know?
No people = No imagined gods.... All gods are imaginary..
@@AndyCampbellMusic ☝️and there it is: EXACTLY my point.
Hint: _Lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack._
I am.I don't even think the g word or the c words deserve a capital letter,I always have to correct the predictive text
I'm not an antitheist, but I am opposed to enclosed ideological systems, and arguably the majority of religious ideologies qualify as such.
Especially ones that seek to oppress nonadherents!
“Love the Theist, hate the Theism.”
What would be the best fields to study in college to become a vocal anti-theist?
I'm gonna be honest, if my family in general wasn't religious (my mom specifically), they would have broke apart already. It may sound selfish since it is a personal experience about the topic, but even being an atheist, and agreeing that religion is somehow harmful to society, I don't think that "fighting" theism would be a solution, but I don't really know that would be the better approach to this topic.
😮hey Man!! I'm in the island too!!
I agree that the island 🇵🇷 has a problem with being godless.
And yes it alienates one from everyone else. I'm criticized alot, but I sustain my posture over all!!
Why aren't we all Jewish? If 8 Jewish people, on an ark, result in 8 billion people, shouldn't we all be Jewish? 😮
Better turn that last rant into a short.
What is the difference between antitheism and antireligion? I've seen lots of definitions and there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer.
Technically one can be a theist (being convinced there is a divine being/god) without joining any religion. Also, there are nontheistic religions (like buddhism, confucianism, jainism, some quakers, etc). So it's not a 100% overlap there.
@@irrelevant_noob Thanks for your response
Im thouroughly and openly anti-theist
I don't use the term "anti-theist," because I'm not against theists, but I agree otherwise.
For example, I love my Mormon "theists" family members, but I tell them about how awful I think their religion is and that it sucks. (I also praise the church in the few instances the church does good.) In short I'm anti-Mormon church, but I'm not anti-Mormon members. If a theist is an awful person, then in that sense I'm anti-bad-theist.
If my family rejects me, so be it, because at this point in my life, I'm tired of being quiet about how awful theism can be.
Armin made the same distinction, that the hosts have no problem with religious people, but the religion itself is the problem.
I guess saying "I'm an antitheism" sounds a bit weird 😅
I'm a proud, Antitheist. It's in my username. 😊
I am not an anti theist, nor do I think anti theism is a position I ought to have.
Yes. I have a fundamentalist "Christian" sibling who has screamed at me that I'm a drug addict and an alcoholic (neither of which I am) because I don't go to their church. I think this siblings' head would explode if they knew I was an atheist!!🤯
I mean, if being atheist is the worst part in comparation to what you just said they think you do it would be weird lol :v
We have a helluva a lot more evidence to suggest their is no god than we have to support the existence of a god. It only makes logical sense to adopt the position of an anti-theist, if one is a rational thinker. I would suggest that any believer take a comprehensive mythology course from a reputable university, that starts at the earliest recorded mythologies and works it's way forward in history to the most modern holy books. It would be quite difficult to take such a course and still hold any belief that holy books are anything more than re-translations of myths from earlier cultures. It's quite clear that the hodge-podge of contradictory canons and apocryphal texts in the Xtian bible are a loosely cobbled together collection of inherited mythologies and allegories, injected with the Bronze Age author's backwards non-scientific thinking.
@hankkingsley9183 You do? I've never heard of any evidence that suggests there is no god. Anyway - evidence doesn't 'suggest' something is true or not - it affirms it. But, each to his own.
@@wwlib5390
Is that why you affirm genocide?
I think religion is harmful in every aspect. It may help you when a relative dies, but it's unhealthy to not be able to mourn someone you love, because "you'll see them again" or "they're in a better place". It devalues how limited life is.
I can use the same argument for being anti political, so should we be anti political?
I’d like to see Forest on the Joe Rogan Experience!!
Well said Forrest!!
The LOTR reference is definitely a straw man. Tolkien never wanted LOTR to be used as rules for living everyday life. The bad stuff in LOTR is said to be bad, the goal was to stop Sauron from coming back and dominating the world. The bible on the other hand ENCOURAGES barbaric practices such as treating women like property.
I wish my superstitious friends would read the Bible and actually analyze the text with a critical eye.
Are there questionable bits in Lord of the Rings? Some would say so. Do I disavow it entirely because of that? No. I love LotR. The thing is, nobody is claiming LotR is a 100% morally perfect and literally true divine document. Even the smallest questionable bits in a book like that are enough to completely reject it as such, and the bible has a lot more than just questionable bits
I dislike the use of the word "anti-theist" because it's like "anti-Christian" where you are anti- a group of people. I prefer irreligious because it means you're against religion, and all religions. This means you have nothing against the people. Anti-theist without an explanation appears to be a statement of hate.
With all these Christians here in America and what they've done to hurt this Country and it's people based on their religious beliefs and world view, I have no problem calling myself an anti-theist or anti-Christian. These people need to be stopped. The sooner we all get together and take away their "stick", the better we are off.
Yeah, it's not an ideal word for what it means.
Nor is it one that should be necessary if all it means is "not wanting people to believe things you consider false", which is, you know, just normal in every other context.
Why is it that any criticism directed towards someone is immediately categorized as "hateful"? Is there no middle ground anymore? Must we either love or hate? Personally, I may disagree with many individuals, but I seldom harbor feelings of "hate" or"love" towards them. Also, I find it hard to believe that one cannot have a dislike towards certain individuals or groups of individuals. It seems dishonest to suggest otherwise.
Antitheism - opposition to the belief in the existence of a god or gods.
Edit: Irreligious - indifferent or hostile to religion, or having no religious beliefs.
Antitheism is not defined as been indifferent or hostile to religion, only opposed to the belief in the existence of a god or gods.
Isn't irreligious more similar to atheist? Like atheist means "not theist", irreligious means "not religious"? That is not what antitheist means (to me). Then just call it antireligious.
Hell yeah.
I am a born atheist and converted to an anti-theist later.
If you want to believe in some story. Go ahead. But as an Atheist, I have to hear from someone who doesn't even understand what Atheism is. How, what and why I do not believe that a god exists. I feel free to respond.
Indeed it's deeply deeply harmful, thank you Forrest and Armin!!
Religion/belief in gods poisons everything.
We don't need the bible for the good parts. We don't need the bible at all. But good advice is good advice. We can cherry-pick the good stuff from the bad just like the Christians do, but we can do that without holding onto the bad. That's not a package deal anyone needs.
Am I an antitheist? No. I'm a Polytheist. I have no idea why this was recommended to me lol
Even though I am an anti-theist, I avoid using that term because it can confuse people into thinking that I am against the Christian, Muslim, or Hindu etc. I don't have issues with the theist, I have issues with theism. I think a better term would be anti-theismist.
The bad things in Lord of the Rings are from the bad characters, and ate fought against by the good characters. They don't hold onto the teachings of the bad characters because some parts might be good.
The swimming pool analogy also comes in: if all the turds were floating down at the other end of the pool, would we tell our children that it's OK to jump in at this end?
We are against not the rank and file theist followers, but what they do in service to their beliefs and in obedience to their preachers. We are against the preachers being considered as wise and honored civic leaders, instead of being known as lying frauds and charlatans.
The preachers are evil as are the apologists who get the rank and file believers to do the evil things.
I'm an antitheist,, and I'm fine with being that person.
I agree. I am an anti-theist because of the following criteria:
1.) I am a nihilist and do not believe in anything that requires belief, especially something so far out as the concept of "god". However I'd like to add furthermore that if I am wrong in that disbelief and there is a "god" I could only be proven wrong and that god exists through science, not theological discourse. And that even if god is proven, that still does not mean theology is a good thing, and I would still be an anti-theist.
2.) I have studied every religion known to man, for many years I was a metapysicist, but not a theologian. This is because I always saw theology to be the lowest of philosophies. Other philosophies will rely upon objective reality, logic, or even pseudo-science. But theology does none of these things, there is nothing about it that is feasible. And furthermore:
3.) In addition to being incredulous, theology has done exponentially more harm than good throughout history. So much so that I could almost even argue that it is absolutely harmful, for in many cases where there are religious charities that aim to help people, even then they are doing more harm than good to the cultures and peoples they claim to be "helping". This occurs because theology/religious based “morality” is actually quite the opposite, it is immoral, in that it self righteous only seems virtuous to those who have professed membership to the belief system, while those who are not are often treated as enemies and punished for their non-conformity of thought (in other words, religious preachers are the real life thought police of our world).
4.) When I used to study religion and be a spiritual person, I had spiritual experiences, even ones that were of something I'd call "god". However this only occurred due to a few criteria: 1.) My study of and belief in the concepts I was experiencing, 2.) My having used psychedelic drugs before the experience, or 3.) My becoming ill and fevered and entering a delirium before the experience. As I grew older and wiser and I stopped studying metaphysics/spiritual philosophy, and stopped using psychedelic drugs and became healthier, these conditions faded into my distant past and I realized that spiritual experiences are simply a product of the mental chemistry. Spirituality is synonymous with "delusion", and it is narcissistic for people to think that they ought to be preaching to others about their own imagined spiritual experiences as if they were objective truths that apply to everyone, when they really only exist in the subjects mind (and barely exist there even, since even there they are fleeting and due to chemical imbalance).
5.) Every religious/theological writer, speaker, or "leader"/"authority" I've met seems to have something terribly wrong with them. Usually it is some form of narcissism, and their spirituality is simply narcissistic delusion, and their claims at attempting to "help others" with their "word of god" is just an attempt to brainwash others into following them so that they may attain a higher social status, and social currency, which they can then monetize through donations. In other words, they are all con artists, who I think should be charged with criminal fraud.
Do I think all religions should be abolished? No, because some religions like Taoism and certain sects of buddhism are actually atheistic and are simply philosophies and ways of living and practicing things such as healthy eating, meditation and mindfulness. And I have nothing against any of that. But any religion rooted in theology and it's proselytizing I am certainly opposed to, and depending upon the religion and the type of person I am dealing with, I often won't wish to discuss it with them, as so many are simply incapable of having a rational debate and are only looking for people to brainwash - namely those who are from the big 3 orthodox religions of the west. These types of people will often come into discussions of any matter and attempt to hijack them and force others to listen to them preach, which is something I simply cannot tolerate, even if the person is being nice about it. In fact most of these preachy types do use niceness as a form of manipulation so that they can brainwash others, and thus I do not trust them enough to interact with them at all, even in small talk, and as soon as their preaching begins, I end the conversation abruptly by telling them outright that I do not care one bit to hear about their religion.
Unfortunately, I believe that there are people who would be horrible if there were no gods to fear. The world would be in chaos, without religion. Some bad people pray to some diety for strength, not to rape, murder, molest...TODAY!
I'm 75. When I was 65, I retired. I found it hard to sleep. And I remembered that I get sleepy reading the bible. It worked. Then I started reading it like a novel, from page 1. At age 69 , sitting in bed, reading the bible, I realized that I was an atheist, and I wept. As though a close family member had died. The Christian in me objected. I can lie to everyone on this planet, but I can’t lie to me. To this day, when someone sneezes, I still say, 'God bless you' because it makes THEM feel better. Is there even such a thing as a
Christian-Atheist?
They're horrible because they're raised without morals, by people who believe a fear of god is what's needed. So they're horrible people deep down, and thus have an easier time believing everyone else is horrible. But everyone else is worse, because there's no god to hold them back.
They'd be better if they weren't indoctrinated when they were young.
But those who'd be horrible regardless? At least now they don't have a religion to weaponize.
Why do you believe that?
I've never been a Christian or ever believed in any gods, yet still use all manner of sayings that involve God. "God help me", "God bless", "Pray to God this works" etc. Nothing more than a figure of speech. In your case, it's probably force of habit. Don't sweat it, you're finally free.
Weeping over becoming an atheist is like being sad Santa isn't real. Hurts for a while, then you wonder what you were ever concerned about.