Super Nerd Sh
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2024
- An seasoned raider will have different ideas running through their head when it comes to dealing with mechanics. How do you lean?
----------
Swag: shop.spreadshi...
Twitter: @Preachgaming
Live Stream - twitch.tv/preachlfw
The Good Book - / preachgaming
---------
Big yes on a series that talks more about micro-managing your performance. Your beginners guides and how to's improved my ability by a massive amount. Discussion about talent choices, gear (if you can), specific positioning and that next step in how to push a fight would be amazing. There are always guides but the thought process behind it is invaluable.
Sure, but seeing someone else think through it usually helps me with ideas of my own. By push a fight I just meant boss or scenario specific choices.
Preach, the fact that you sacrifice dps to make it easier to other is why i love your content. I've healed most of wow as a paladin, this is what I've fostered from the time i was class officer to a Guild Master. i hope more people take this to heart, it's not about damage it's about enjoyment, i think the reason we hardcore raiders are dying is just this, no one want's to join when they get one feel and there are so many selfish players.
I've done all classes for the guild, making it easier for other people.
i used to have three to five classes at max trough many of the expansions but now i'm done, it's just not worth it anymore and it's sad, this game has saved my life twice for almost fifteen years!
thank you for all you do for us!
I play on a private vanilla server atm, and I made multiple characters just to make multiple professions available to my guildies. Well, tonight, I decided to flip the switch on my guild. I gave leader to an AFK alt for the past 4 months, and left the same guild I had created. Freedom. Thing is, freedom means a bit of isolation. Selfishness vs selflessness is a huge topic. I have seen selfless ppl become judgemental over my time playing WoW. I dont know what will fix it. I dont think it has anything to do with being selfish. I think it has everything to do with expectations an individual has with a given game, and WoW just so happens to have a storied past. How many raiders (elitist vaginas) have I encountered on a private wow server? How many ppl play retail then round down a little. The issue remains, there is no WE in TEAM, and no matter how hard companies like ActiBlizz try, there is little hope to make all interactions with ppl in AND out of your guild a worthwhile and memorable one. I dont know where MMO games are headed, but to me, it appears its headed down a black hole of not-intended solo play which is detrimental to the interactions we should be having in a so-called MMO. (sighs)
I feel scumazzed that this wasn't as nerdy as originally advertised...
Just to add to the conversation; It's also interesting (and frustrating) to deal with this choice between selfless vs selfish, in the low-end Mythic guilds in particular. I decided to stop playing last week for other reasons, but annoyance with the mindset of my raid team - one that I've raided on and off with for over a decade, mind you - was definitely one of the reasons I didn't feel like playing any more for the time being. This was the first time I launched into a new expansion raiding with them, I normally raid elsewhere and only socially raid with this guild, or sometimes I've raided with them fulltime because I was away from hardcore raiding... Regardless, this was the first time in a decade that I went into a brand new expansion along with them. And man it was a reality check.
So the issue is this... In these guilds, a fair portion of the raiders get access to *just* enough gear that they can rank well - 95th percentile and up. Which makes them obsess over it entirely. Which leads to certain players, those who are pretty good at DPS (not necessarily good raiders, though) on top of ALSO receiving decent loot, doing really inflated damage numbers compared to the rest of the raid. This then leads to the rest of the raid feeling kind of silently upset about how they're not performing so well comparatively speaking, so they start taking shortcuts in terms of boss mechanics, so that their DPS will look better... Which leads to the DPS whores with modest amounts of skill, that I mentioned before, getting quietly upset in response because they aren't so dominant anymore, so they start giving even less of a shit about boss mechanics than they already did. Which leads to the other players also starting to give less of a shit about the mechanics to keep up with the DPS whores... And so on.
And somewhere down the middle of the pack, are the actually good raiders, who do the mechanics every time, who don't take unnecessary damage, and who don't just pad AoE damage all day long (i.e. are usually top damage on priority targets) - and as a result, they look like garbage on the meters, which leads to the inflated DPS whore egos becoming even more inflated, etc etc etc.... It's a vicious loop of dick waving and bloated egos. And it sucks. As a previously hardcore raider (in the top 50, with many kills in the top 30's, and dozens of world rank 1's as both healer and DPS), sitting there middle of the pack doing my job and watching the raid wipe over and over again due to too much avoidable damage, too many mechanics mistakes, while ALSO feeling like I am part of the problem because I'm not at the top of the meters... Yeah, it just feels shitty.
It's like the shittest shitstorm of shitty things in raiding. As much as I love these guys as friends, I really miss hardcore raiding. This kinda shit just doesn't happen in the same way in serious guilds. And if you raid in a super casual guild, you're still OK as a skilled player - because you can do all the mechanics, avoid all the damage, and STILL be on top of the damage and feel good about it. It's the ultimate feel-good situation. But in these bottom-of-the-pack Mythic guilds, where the inflated egos get just enough fuel to keep blowing that ego balloon? It's the worst place to be...
It is always interesting to listen to preach. Thank you for a great explanation, but I also want to share a story.
In the beginning of Antorus I was in a heroic guild. We cleared Curve pretty fast, and we rekilled a few times.
The problem was what happened with the rest of legion until BFA. Myself wanted to run alt-raids so it would be easier to clear mage towers on as many classes as possible. Some people didn't share this and they stoped playing the game 100%.
Around 6 weeks after curve we had no raid team anymore.
So I started looking for a new guild, and found some people that all came from mythic raiding and wanted to start a new guild with goal of mythic raiding. I felt that this the chance.
We where not many, maybe around 10-15 people and I joined them. A few days after I join we wanted to do a heroic clear. We puged a few players, and went in.
The attitude of "If you wipe us, you are kicked.. as long as you are not one of us" was so clear early on. An elemental shaman got kicked midpull on Varimathras because he got DC and didn't move out with the debuff.
When our DKs caused wipes on Aggramar because they didn't do the grip properly it was no problem. One DK griped an add closer to the big elementals so he could get Sephuz proc.. it became empowered and caused a lot of raidwide damage = a wipe.
Next pull.. "Shit, I have all my CDs, a got a random proc, I want to use my Sephuz so I grip next one" and suddenly we had two debuffs because it was the other dk that was on gripping-duty.
I openly asked if "doing dps is more important than killing the boss" and the answer was: "FFS the healers need to work" (could add that it was add 4 and 5. Griped one in the beginning of transition, two when big elementals was dead and two more... so the healers didn't have CDs). I asked: "If you are in that mentality, should we all use prydaz to help the healers?" "Hell no, that's a dps loss"
I left within a week.
Of course it feels bad when you pop all your CDs and you get targeted by an ability that forces you to move.. but if you don't move ALL get affected instead of ONLY you. Some people have problems with that.
It's hero/bloodlust, let's tunnel the boss and don't move out with the debuff that spreads to close by players!! and a few seconds later 20 people needs to move and stop doing their dps. It went so far that during G'huun hc progress(in a guild with goal of mythic raiding) we changed the wipecall to "Let's pop hero" instead of: "Let's wipe it" 1.4% wipe today. We get it next raid.
Almost NONE of your videos apply to me. I watch them all anyway.
I feel like you've ascended to the second tier of thought. This is an just an advanced version of the normal discussion "Do the mechanics, don't tunnel the boss".
The pools don't travel towards the boss - they seem to wiggle a bit, but that's about it. You can clearly see that in your footage since there a pool directly on top of the console in the back that stays there for the entirety of the fight.
If the pools actually moved the common strategy would be to all drop them in one part of the room and then drag the boss away - just randomly dropping the pools all around the boss wouldn't make sense if the would just end up encircling you eventually.
I like this kind of video! I went from a very casual guild that generally got AotC every tier, but never did Mythic to an even MORE casual guild that got our first AotC with Argus falling just a few months ago. I've always been of the "Secure the Kill at All Costs" kind of mindset, and never really had to be the baller-est DPS (although I try to do good damage as best I can). I have personally dipped my toe into Mythic in the Emerald Nightmare, Tomb of Sargeras, and Antorus but have no plans on going back (IRL reasons). Being selfish has never been a mindset I've had, and it honestly boggles my mind that a lot of people DON'T have the "Kill it this pull so we can move on" mindset. I had the unfortunate experience of being Co-GM that smashed the shit out of {now} Heroic Garrosh Hellscream, only to go more than 3 MONTHS without a re-kill due to all the damage-whoring. Being locked to a 10-man ONLY roster really hurt as well when 2 people would leave the guild for one reason or another, and most new apps didn't stick around too long when we couldn't get that re-kill.
I have seen 100% selfless players, but they have all been healers. IME healing is the only role in which selfless play really shines.
Ironically this is why I like dot classes for dps, that way I can move but still do a bit of damage and split the difference
MithranderGray You should probably add tanks to that list lol. Seeing as they have the only requirement to play for the team instead of for themselves. Tanks that are selfish and compete with each other instead of cooperate generally ruin tanking teams, and as a result the raid. They also tend to take more onto their plate, dealing with not only the tank specific boss mechanics and that of their class, but also dealing with some dps mechanics, and even healer mechanics when they can. As a tank who raids in top 20 guild on Hyjal, I am ALWAYS asked to go above and beyond to benefit the raid. Just to take pressure off of the other classes. Any mechanics that we can take care of are mechanics the DPS and Healers don't have to worry about and can focus on their jobs a little more. Just my opinion tho.
As a healer, when you were mentioning all that you do to try to make the raid go smother i was saying to myself "this is a healer(team player) mentality, and oh boy if only more people did this". Yes I prefer to have someone who is willing to sacrifice personal glory for team accomplishment any day over a chimpanzee who logs in to damage /flex, JO to damage meters or logs and then log off.
Great video and great topic. I basically just started raiding(even though I’ve played since vanilla), and working heroic progress atm. This is very cool information and part of what I see raiding as being so complex and rewarding. I’ve watched your content referring to being the volunteer and I totally agree. It’s about killing the boss and doing it as a team. I hope to progress mythic raiding at some point and I’m sure your advice will help then more than ever.
Great to see another upload preach! Love the content as always :D
As am elemental shaman, I know, I know, i play selfless, always have. I have a tool kit that i use to help the raid. i know my class is low on the meters, which is why I do other things, slowing Zul adds and purging them to save priest mana, stunning on CD, etc. This is the best video you have ever made!
Thing is, you still get told to HS the fuck out so they can bring someone hitting more, which happened to me 2 weeks ago, I was raiding, I was like 2 places below our other balance in the group then suddenly, I get told to hearthstone because I was not putting enough damage, what the actual fuck, I was the one controlling adds with Typhoon and silencing on spot (Zek'Voz fight), I didn't even ask shit, just used my hearthstone and started lvling another character, I'm not even willing to give them an answer as for why I won't be login in with my druid anymore.
I am very lucky i am in a guild that wants good players they know their specs. But i understand your situation, i am leveling my lock up, more to help the guild
Can't wait to start seeing LFR peeps using that alley
Knockback is only on heroic and up so.
including tanks
There is no knockback in LFR so scumbag alley does not apply.
I'm maining a healer in a mythic raiding guild. We have like 95% selfish dps and 5% not completly selfish dps. Even though I get the need for the former, every healer will beg the RL to bring as many of the latter as we can field. That crucial off heal, crucial use of CDs, crucial avoidance of a mechanic gives the healers the breathing room they need on a progress kill to pull through on stabilizing the group or to conserve mana they need later.
A really good example is actually the clouds on zek voz. I really like it if some of the mobile classes carry out theirs enough so they become a complete non issue for the fight. Then we have the meele who stays in meele till 3s on the debuff and then only runs out 20m to drop it. These clouds are the ones that make navigating surging darkness in the last phase cancerous.
One thing I really miss in current wow was the specific *Utility* roll I felt I brought to raids with my old shaman.
I never did max deeps but I had a totem for EVERYTHING and I like to think I helped the group alot with them.
Fears? Tremor totem.
Poions? Clense totem.
Stone skin, Earthbind, healing stream, manatide, grace of air, windfury, strength of Earth.
I miss being able to roll for utility.
There's no real excitement to having a specific class in a group anymore. I remember being on my mage and being so excited when a boomkin and a shaman would show up. The buff synergy was amazing!
@@Guldaar oh dude, back in my BC raiding guild we had "group four" every raid the GM would put me (enh sham) in a group with our 3 rogues and a warrior (back then totems only effected the group, not the raid) and group 4 would end up being like 40-45% of the raids DPS. Those rogues with battle shout, grace of air and windfury totem were just fucking monsters.
Mike! THe new series idea sounds awsome! i love to watch your thought process during fights
No HOLLA BOLLAS?
My disappointment is immeasurable...
Really enjoyed this video, more raid related discussions the better! In response to what you said I think it depends on the boss fight, generally there is a balance to be struck and your raid need to strive to maintain it
19:30 that moment preach reads your mind. feelsbadman
While I realize this video was meant to be more mythic, top 100 type guilds - but this was helpful as a leader to hear and as an individual raider. Thanks Preach!
The best example that I can think of - and again, thanks to Method for live streaming WF - is seeing what Scrype does for Method as RL and focussing on mechanics rather than the meters
Quite an intersting point. In general, being selfless will make the fight easier for everyone else but it limits your own performance. In an environment of less experienced raiders this is especially helpful because dps doesn't matter if you wipe to a mechanic. If you play at the hightest level however, the other players don't need you to make the fight easier because they're good enought to deal with tricky situations on their own. Focusing on your own performance can be better for the raid at that point.
There are situations where hesitation caused by thoughtfulness leads to failure. Sometimes, especially when the odds are stacked against you, your only chance at victory is taking that long shot and going all out.
Thank you for your vids Preach. They've made me a better player. Particularly the older stuff tackling transitioning from a clicker to keybinding.
The way you said poor made it sound like 'between the really really good players, and the horde players'.
I fucking loved this video, please make this a series!
24:00 dont spell steal those little adds, once the absorb runs out you die. I learnt that the hard way :D
Same -- I even submitted a bug about it and then felt really dumb when I read the tooltip :P
We all did but I thought for most people it happened week one in King's Rest.
Both perspectives have merit, it just depends on what your guild is trying to do. If you have a guild that regularly attracts recruits and want to build a team that'll compete for ranking position, you probably have to trust your teammates to handle mechanics (and bench them if they consistently can't). If you're not attracting recruits and/or hanging out with a big group of friends doing more casual progression, then it's fine to coddle them on mechanics in order to kill an extra boss or two. The real problem is doing the second while trying to be the first, because you're going to hit a brick wall on fights that require max damage from everyone. Pretty much exactly what this video is talking about, though most players will encounter the issue at vastly earlier levels of progression.
Worth noting that this applies extra-hard to healing teams. A guild with a disproportionately good healing team can really atrophy the guild's mechanics because DPS often don't get punished for mistakes. Then you hit a fight that has mechanics on top of a big baseline healing check and the house of cards falls apart. This can be a very harsh experience, even guild-ending, if fragile egos are involved.
As an officer of a quite serious raiding guild, when going through applications, I can safely say that if your parses are orange on padding bosses, and you're lowest on priority targets, we actually just tend to decline you. There are plenty of good parse players out there, but when looking for mechanical players, it's almost like there are none.
When you hear Method fooling around with the sentence "play average, get world first" There's actually a level of truth to it. Average parsing, but great mechanical skill, is a lot more important than rank 1 but no mechanical awareness.
On this point i'd like to refer to Azortharion. A hunter who can only parse, or focus on mechanics, but never both at the same time.
I learned something important about this subject back in vanilla. DPS does not kill bosses; damage does
This type of cooperative play is so much more interesting to me than cranking the last drop out of your personal dps.
What you are talking about is the prisoner's dilemma essentialy. And it also is reminiscent of many types of corporate cultures. Some companies employ the culture of individual excellence, a.k.a the survival of the fittest. Others go about cooperation and "your team is as strong as your weakest chain". First is great in an enviroment of excellent people, because each individual works best on their own, so their sum of potential is maximized when they are all selfish. The downside of that is less flexibility. It takes a long time to build that kind of team since there are not many people on that level of self sufficiency and also it's high-risk high-reward strategy, meaning that any kind of unprecedented problem creates highly stressful situation since you can't rely on each other to mitigate the risk, but if you survive it you are rewarded with higher performance. Deploying that kind of culture in your team not only requires the best of the best, but is also very risky meaning that if you want consistent results, you need to carefuly manage that risk and wage it against your real individual limitations. The other kind of strategy is simply way more practical and leads to faster results in most situations, but does not really allow you to be competitive on the highest level if you crave that (and let's be honest most people really don't exactly because of the price they'd have to pay and potential of burn out or dealing with thath high risk and stress it involves because it's not who they really are). So it makes perfect sense to me that you are slowly moving away from it as you are climbing the ranking and you are doing it more and more as the risks you are able to take and sustain are higher and higher.
Long time fan preach! Perhaps I am a bit salty with the fact I was playing the game incorrectly, Once again thank you Blizzard for clarifying that; perhaps it is time to show what you are truly capable of. As a Long time warlock, I can say from the bottom of my doom, Stay Selfish my friend.
Dunno, I'd imagine that through experimentation you'll find a nice balance between altruism and egoism.
ive adopted the selfless playstyle in a previous game and kept it since ive started wow early this year. it feels really good to hear somone talk about this as i feel noone really cares about it besides some experienced gm´s officers or healers. The mindset of "how can i make this easyer for everyone" contributes emmensly to a fight but is harder to spot than some number. Sadly wow is littered with dps whores and ppl that love padding/seeing themself ontop of a meter they install and seemingly choose to put in the middle of their screen.
even though the applications are advanced, the principles are simple and can be applied to all sorts of things. keep up with the good stuff!
Holy cow, Preach, this sums up how I feel about rng involved in wow right now, and all it started with stupid wf/tf thingie in mop, I went from being the best geared feral druid on my server in cata with multiple rank 1 logs to not being able to get full bis gear at the end of SoO with ,almost 50 heroic(now mythic) Garrosh kills. And not to say how that could influence your performance in raid, as you said, the range is huge, you could do 100 perfect pulls, but if rng gods arent with you when you kill the boss, its all for nothing, and since from mop onwards it seems to be a trend, the kind I dont really enjoy.
If any one can figure out when to be selfish or selfless in any encounter , it is you. You have shown over the years the ebb and flow of each boss fight. I am sure you will be able to find a balance in one way or another between the two modes .
Very interesting discussion. I will keep it in mind. I was more of a selfless player always, but I was never top of the meters aswell. I am not THAT good of a player but I've often used my abillities to make things easier.
I agree with everything, very good video. Selfless > selfish. I naturally go towards the selfless and I'm very annoyed when I watch people ignore mechanics to do more dps.
Please make that series of videos. I dig that you doubled down on what your channel is, never mind if folks tell you its on the elitist side.
Making the split decisions in either needing to do the selfish or selfless play (which one is better) is the thing that sets a good raider apart from a great raider.
I've been raiding as a healer in high end pve environments also, and i agree with your healers too. It's funny actually, i found myself in the same boat as you when after years of healing i switched to dps (boomkin), and still kept my "team first always and forever
More of this please. Great vid.
The sad thing about many guilds is that if you did take this selfless mentality it is likely that you would get benched for having lower dps. You can’t do this unless you have built a reputation for it.
its less your reputation and more the mentality of your fellow raiders. It's your raid teams goals that makes this possible. Do you want everyone to try and pars, or do you want to kill the boss and progress as a team.
you can be "selfless", but it will burn you out, it burned me out for sure (healing)
If your guild is more invested in dps over boss kills find another guild. Or settle for being rank 1 in nothing.
That is actually why i was a selfish dd in legion. I only did random groups up to heroic and later antorus mythic (not cleared on mythic). And to not get kicked you had to be a selfish player because if you didnt do enough dps you get kicked even if you saved the group.
I make a point to surround myself with people who prefer selflessness over selfishness. It will definitely change your perspective of the game when you do, too.
I would love a series like this for farm content
After watching this video, I'm going to TRY to hide my dps meters during raid and not type /deatils show and make the extra effort to think of the people around me and review my logs after raid. Great video
Preach's damage meter died for your sins.
I'v always leaned to the more selfless side like you Mike. I agree that most people lean to be more if not totally selfish. I'v called people out on it on it as well. I'm sure that there is a fine balance between the two and everyone could benefit from being a bit more selfless. All in all though, I'v found that to much selflessness is often met with questions and a possibility of your raid spot being forfeited.
When I saw you spellsteal from the add I just knew how it would end and was really surprised you actually did it.
Just incase someone is confused about his last death, mages CANNOT spellsteal minions of zul to dispel them. They gain the buff that instantly kills them when the buff is removed. This is the same in King's Rest.
To me it sometimes is incredible how little people understand about boss fights in raids.
Just this weekend I actually was told to stop my selfish callouts during the Zul Reborn heroic fight. I played DPS demon hunter in that raid. There were situations when I saw the soaking spots spawn and no one going into them. So I jumped in as a melee so the raid doesn't die while calling out "can a range take over the soak?" with a short "thanks" after a person did. There was no flaming, accusations or whatever - just short to the point messages about what was going on so people would do the necessary tasks.
And then being accused of making "selfish callouts" is just mind boggling to me. So I help to keep the raid alive and suffer in the DPS area if no one takes over or I let the raid die and have solid dps. Btw. my guild group so far has wiped over 4,5 hours on zul on heroic and we have gotten him to phase 2 about 3 times. And personally I don't consider the fight in p1 as hard....
think there is a fine line in between the two, where you do the scumbag thing when it makes scenes and not just always
Hey Preach. This was such a nice video. I'm struggling to get your mindset put into more of my guildies :)
Yes, keep this kind of content coming. Less doom and warfront/island gloom. Class's are imbalanced and we've missed your usual pre-release class guides. But the the high-end raid content and perspective is appreciated. On a second side, wow has had so much negative coverage for the last 6 weeks, it nice to see something more neutral
I really like this style of comment. One of my favorite videos you did is waaaay back in Cata with Heroic Rag. Showing a play by play of all the shit you were doing. I believe you did something for Mythic Aggramar as well?
Anyways, I would love to see more like this.
Great job Preach, keep it up mate!
That raid composition at 21:43 25% rogues and almost 25% warlocks perfectly balanced game :P
the game and even life should be dealt with in moderation and in the middle.
extremists views tend to take both sides to bad decisions and downfall. its best to be in the middle and have a bit of both sides.
ofcourse u can lean towards one side more than the other but still u r always better if u check urself every now and then and get urself back in the middle.
u can be selfish one day and selfless the other day, as long as u find that middle balance betweem them.
say u r taking 2 to 3 nights to progress a boss. 1 night ill be full selfish and the other ill be selfless. but on the third day where we r definelty get the kill, ill do a mix of both. there will be windows and oportunities that will present themselves and we should capitilize on them. however just dont go out of ur way to do them if they r not presented to u.
A seasoned raider will find ways to maximise their performance in a way that doesn't hamper the rest of the raid.
It's all down to whether you respect the people you play with. Do your best to understand you role in all the mechanics and take responsibility for your individual performance. The discerning factor between a good progression experience and a bad one is the way in which the individuals participating conduct themselves and coordinate for the greater good. Maximising your own DPS is something you should always strive to do, but only within a framework of what is going to maximise raid DPS and control.
I play very sporadically these days, so I only get to do LFR or the odd PUG Normal, but if you treat people with respect and keep yourself accountable then you can compensate in some part for the people that don't and hopefully it rubs off on the people you meet.
There's nothing better than a guild of similarly skilled players who have respect for each other and actively help each other maximise their performance for the team. It doesn't matter what difficulty level you play at; respectful and helpful teams are the more enjoyable experience.
My entire guild lives in Scumbag Alley... and consequently, they're 3/8M
Preach, I know you love this game. You've built a career out of it, and a fan base that you truly appreciate.
But, honestly... you're about 3-6 months away from taking a serious break from the game.
Aint that right
his job is to play the game. are you telling him he needs a 3-6 month break from his job? what you plebs dont understand is some people have a dramatically different viewpoint. "i think the games not that bad and i only play 3 hours a week". of course you dont, you dont play enough to see whats wrong with the game.
Grown men shouldn't play video games.
Apoxiosis, buddy, pal... you completely missed the point of my post. Reading comprehension is hard (I guess?) so let me break it down for you.
There are numerous problems with the game. Tons of them. And Preach, try as he might to remain interested in the game, is rapidly approaching "burn out". He will stick with it, try to make it work for the sake of the channel... but eventually, he's going to move on to other games.
He will come back to WoW on occasion, and still might raid on a casual level. But I honestly don't think even HE is aware of how close he is to taking a break.
grown men can do whatever the fuck they want.
ty preach as someone who plays a mage and is on mythic fetid myself im constantly asking myself the same question and it was nice for me to see that vid because ive allways had the mentality that ill take w/e shitty job if it means the raid can kill the boss but its just rly hard on that fight because if you stay out with the debuffs the adds just wont die.
Your selfishness just embraced the benefits of delayed gratification.
I think a balance is important, just kind of had this conversation with someone the other day. If everyone is 100% selfish, sometimes you can't down the boss. If everyone is 100% selfless you also can't down the boss chances are. Important to rotate jobs that take away dps windows or people probably will get bitter as lets face it, competitiveness fuels a lot of players.
Your style of play is mandatory in raids in other mmos. WoW is the king of raids but some of its dps players are a bit too interested in numbers and not the kill
Sometimes doing damage is the selfless choice. That being said (as a rogue) I know my main job is to kill priority adds and soak stuff, those are the things my class excel at so thats what my top priority will be. BUT sometimes i can go out of my way to soak something for someone else just to reduce raidhealing if i notice the healers are struggling, for example on heroic Zul, I can go stand in the soak puddle and lose alot of damage, but with cloak that mechanic doesnt even exist for 5 second which can help the healers immensely.
My thought process is usually "Can i do something to make the fight go on", Sometimes that means more damage, sometimes that means complete selflessness and gray logs :p
I think what you’re describing is just an ongoing calculation of what’ll take the boss down or not. I like to err of the side of selflessness as well but sometimes you have to put your healers through more stress to get it done.
I went from top500 to top100 and I have the same feelings. I can't afford as much to be selfless, and I'm starting to realize, you don't have to be because your team is just that much better, you need to gvie them more trust.
1 minute in and i had to restart cause i couldn't pay attention to anything but that burst of the warlocks
My opinion is if everyone has a bit of the mentality of how to make everyone's time easier, the degree to which that person needs to accommodate for the rest is considerably lower than if only 2 or 3 people do it. (instead of 1-3 people having to put the pool in china, everyone puts theirs 3-5 steps a bit further)
I have a very simple solution. Kebind toggle the visibility for meters during fights. Only turn it on after the fight to analyse it.
As a full time tank started in Cataclysm, I approached the selfless way from the beginning, but times changed. I still try my best to make the combat as smooth as possible for the raid, but I started to be selfish in certain tankmoments, just to deal with some mechaniks easier as a tank with my cotank such as Zek'vos Mythic not moving him to the next add during his tankcomb to not cleave the dps. You can argue that this move is selflesnes again, but most of the scumbag ally DPS would see this as selfish, because they cant cleave onto the Boss.
As Tank you never fight to top meters when you just have to survive certain things and I think Scumbag ally should just move out of his way and play a different role such as healer or tank and observe the other scumbag allies to realize why a certain bit of selflesnes is helpful to kill the boss.
As a tank, this is a philosophy I encounter very often.
I dunno if it is the aftermath of the vengeance mechanic or something, but I find a great deal of my co-tanks through the years feel like a 15th DPS. Maybe that is how a tank should be, but I've always seen the tank as a distinct role, and if I could choose between survival and DPS, I'd choose survival. But too many times, tanks would go for silly mechanics to cheese for more damage, sacrifice CDs, use CDs in offensive ways etc and it just annoys me.
My guild got stuck on Chronomatic Anomaly in nighthold for 2 weeks because people insisted on standing in the cirkles spawning everywhere because they were using prydaz. fun times.
Personal responsibility, selflessness vs selfishness... Oh hi Mythic Vectis, didn't notice you standing there in a corner and grinning.
Use your displacement!! My arcane eyes bleedout at #18:01
Really enjoyed the video/topic more of this and my guild might actually clear mythic in a decent pace for once!
More videos just like this. Thanks preach
This is the biggest difference between high end (
As a healer (and heal lead) in my guild, I 100% just want the boss to die. Once stuff is easy and on farm, I find ways for all my healers to take turns to try and rank higher if they want, but on prog it's all about making sure the boss dies. This includes having the best cooldown for the right situation, rather than just having my own cooldown where there is the most damage. I also look for places where I am able to 'remove' some of my minor cooldowns and put them elsewhere to even out the damage and allow healers to conserve mana.
Selfish vs selfless? You experienced bad vs not bad. It's ultimately about making sure your raid is successful which means your own DPS means dogshit if you didn't also make the BEST decisions.
There's nothing competitive about playing bad.
I think many of us would appreciate some more explanation on what happened between you and Andy.
Andy just found a new job it's nothing big my guy
He didn't. He said today that he had interviews. It feels like Andy is somewhat lost, going by him creating a patreon and shit, but no one owes us an explanation, it's between them. It just seemed a cowardly and douchebaggy move that Andy didn't said goodbye to the stream.
Seems like Andy quit a very good and well payed job with PG and then set up his own patreon saying it was for his wife and daughters. Seems a bit of a scummy thing to do but like everyone else I have no idea what really happened.
I've read on reddit that Andy confirmed in his own stream that he quit due to some kind of difference of opinion. Sure it is a personal thing that maybe we are not entitled to hear, but it still would have been nice to hear a bit more from the horse's mouth. I've been following Preach for like 1,5 years now and will miss the duo. Everyone is going on how Blizzard refuses to communicate with us, and in this case it was Preach who refused to communicate the real reason, sadly.
I saw that, when you have a family to support seems like a strange move tbh..
A raid team needs both types of players, and for each of those players to be able to swap to the other type at any given time. In certain scenarios being selfless is better, in others, selfish is better. I tend to be a very selfless player and will go out of my way to do the "shit" jobs in a raid. However, I am also one of the higher dps on the team, so by being completely selfless I may actually be a detriment to the team on certain fights. As you said, its finding that balance.
Parsewhoring is absolutely cancerous in the raiding community during progression. Anyone reading this, any good player will NOT care about parses during progression. The only thing that matters is a boss kill. I cannot emphasize this enough.
Ok i didnt know the roiling deceit moved. That makes sense as to why I popped one even though nothing happened during the 8 seconds i had my own roiling deceit.
One of the big reasons I've been enjoying hunter for so long is I can pull some big dick numbers while also being pretty selfless. Sometimes the rotation isn't particularly exciting but it doesn't cost me anything to go that extra mile and run the bad far away as I can pull off my whole rotation on the run. Even in situations where I'm ranging the boss my pet is still doing solid damage and I can KC if I'm not LOS'd.
Hey mate! Love that niche, because we just had a similar discussion in our raid!
I'm no spectacular DPS by any means, not blaming my being selfless on it, but I am one of those people, from the times I starting playing holy trinity mmorpgs/rpgs. I was told the healers and tanks are more important in the form of healer's mana matters and tanks make the fight work to begin with. So, even as a DPS I would always try to make it easier on healers as much as possible as i've swapped to mainly tanking over the years. The DPS screech but the healers appreciate what I do (slightly smaller pulls and moving bosses to make mechanics easier/not as severe,) and I feel that is what matters. Until I was removed from 3 mythic Nighthold and later ToS guild trials due to my lackluster dps, even though 1 or 2 of the healers vouched for me. I was low DPS, but I was making the fight easier mechanically on them. I was removed however, because the DPS officers and raid leaders only looked at my damage, not what I was doing resulting in that low damage.
I'm only a heroic raider pleb but what I bring to fights as an unholy DK supports a more selfless play style. I'm able to add a layer of extra control and buff out any mistakes that can wipe the raid. The ichor blobs on Zul is a perfect example. Honestly, its probably because of what I do in raids that my group keeps me around. It certainly isn't because of damage.
I think part of the problem is the player base believes that "if i'm this role then i shouldnt care about the other roles, Tanks are supposed to just take a little dmg as possible and hold aggro, Healers are supposed to heal dmg taken, and dps are supposed to kill the boss" some people that have never played any other role may believe this to be the case and think that problems a healer has shouldnt affect them, however now we've entered a potential era starting with Legion where classes can or do have more flexibility, Paladins can assist with healing and support, Tanks could have a bit more dps, Healers can do some dps, etc etc, people may not understand that making another role or player's life easier can make the raid encounters easier as well, like if a healer or 2 are having an easier job and not needing to heal as much, that means they can do a little bit of dmg, sure the dmg is minor in comparison to a dps or even a tank but one thing i've learned about boss fights is "every little bit Helps" and those small moments of dps can indeed add up. The other part might be boss mechanics where overlapping mechanics can create possible RNG scenarios that pretty much throw skill out the window, lastly on raid mechanics, lastly, i think the game does a poor job of teaching players anything about the game, an example of this is when you boost a character and go through the "tutorial" which only covers the bare basics, it doesnt really teach the player the more advanced mechanics of a player's class and in most cases the more advanced stuff is very important to know such as the many different paladin CDs so players are either forced to learn these things from other players or from mods/websites which should be taught to players in the actual game.
seek balance ... there is a time when you can be both
It was the same on Krosus in NIghthold, where classes like Demon hunters etc ( with great mobility) soaked the front pools instead going in the back, cant really change people
i would never go out of my way to drop the debuff in a way that will make me do less dps on a good pull, however its something i recognize as a weakness in my play and a mindset i am working on changing. its not easy to do in a lot of guilds because you're judged by your numbers.
I"m ready for 8.2 when we will just need to make fists and bash on the keyboard to compete in Mythic raiding. #GoHomeRNGeesus
Preacher "I was doing the mechanics" Gaming
Even when the vids don't necessarily apply to me anymore, being relatively casual normal and heroic with the occasional m+, the ideas behind it are sound. You know that you are going to have a couple of dps in your group that can't mechanic for shit, unless you're dedicated to cutting edge, which I just dont have time for anymore. The idea is sound though, because dps meters, in the end, have lead to people just fucking off of mechanics to say look at my big dps dick here, and then complain about mechanics being hard for melee or w/e..so I suppose in that situation, I would rather take a little bit of a side step to help out and get through a rough patch, rather than just tunnel. People always want to point out, "well, my dps is higher." DPS doesn't mean shit if you're hugging the floor.
As a person who hasn't yet, but plans to in the future: you guys have to worry about more than 3 mechanics per boss, right? Like the boss in the beginning had 3 that preach mentioned and I'd just like to be clear that there will be more to think about than things that basic
Alistair Cross yes, and most of them overlap on mythic, it requires decent execution. + the first boss is an early boss, 3rd boss inn so things get better.