I loved how Donal Noye gave Jon a wake up call about his privilege as a highborn bastard whose father raised him alongside his own children with the same level of education. Even among highborn bastards, he's very privileged. So it was great the way GRRM initially introduced him as being at a disadvantage due to his status only to reframe his situation so that status puts him above his peers. While Jon does feel like a typical stock character, that adds a lot of texture to his character.
One of my fav collabs so far! You and Rui have a very balanced back & forth, and I love that neither of you outspoke or interrupted each other. Really enjoyed this one!!!
I love that Jon is such a fantastically written character you can go from initially reading that chapter with him being arrogant with Benjen and thinking he was just "trying" to help to seeing how absolutely green and arrogant of a boy he was. The show does it dirty with just how truly young Jon is too, he is literally 15(?) when he leaves Winterfell for the Wall in the books. It's so interesting seeing his character progression where I am in the story right now; finishing a Dance with Dragons.
Lovey love LOVE!!! GIIIIIRL! I love this guest!!! The repore between you two is the Vibe!!! 🖤🤍🖤🤍 You've GOTTA have him return!! As always Ms. Gray, ur podcasts make my day!!
So glad Rui mentiones that he thinks that the Children did not create the Others. I fully agree! They seem like a magical race of their own, very different from any other, with their own language and culture. I believe the Children simply gave them weapons: warging ablilties, and through that -- the power to raise the dead.
I badly want to read what Allister Thorne does, once he finds out Jon is Rhaegar's son. - I think it will be like Jaime lecturing his sworn brothers about Arthur Dayne. What a great fighter and great leader he was - and 'Ghost' overhearing and thinking 'ah, now that's news.' I'd love that, it would be a comical relief before the wall breaks.
So is Benjen's death paying for Bran's life? Jon sees Benjen in the snow,the snow drinking up his blood...end of the chapter,the good news...Bran lives and wakes up. In Brans chapter,he flies or he dies...
Tyrion became dumb because the show runners and writers didn't have GRRM's written dialogue to carry the character. Same happened with Varys and Littlefinger
I feel like Benjen was trying to make Jon uncomfortable at the watch, hoping he would change his mind. He didn’t know Jon would ironically be inducted early to find him.
That's an interesting idea,he was closest to Lyanna,nearly 100% sure he knew the truth and probably wanted to slap Ned for not forbidding he join the watch
Sad as it is many people have sexually abused their siblings. Well really elevated him is the callousness. Usually family will hush hush or have some shame those kind of dynamics. I suppose straight up denial is probably the most common. But this is yup I totally did it to ya here and now I’m gonna cut off the tongue of my baby mama. It’s quite terrifying. It does make me wonder how the Flowers girl was so sure Euron loved her. He is not remotely sentimental. But yes terrifying
I always thought Benjen as Coldhands made the most sense, but I finished my reread of ADwD recently, and I’m pretty sure Bran looked on Coldhands’ face on several occasions, so he really can’t be Benjen.
There is a video on youtube "george rr martin on why he created so many characters" in which he states that Jon's plot is the ice and Danaerys is the fire of A Song of Ice and Fire. This is the chapter that really introduces us to this plot and the dynamics of what is really going on in the world. In the preceding chapter Jon and Tyrion have the famous discussion about grumpkins and snarks that really solidifies that plotlines. Thorne is actually a great catalyst because he personifies that brick wall that Jon couldn't break down because he wouldn't accept Jon's attitude of arrogance. Benjen does the same thing. If Jon is really going to be a MAN of the Night's Watch, he needs to become a team player and at Winterfell, he was never allowed to be a part of the team.
I feel close to the Starks. I grew up in a military family, on military bases. I was like Sansa. I was taught how to be a Lady and told that as long as Im good, good things will happen. I was let down. Exactly the way Sansa was, many times.
Usually people complain about Sansa being dumb or naive, a traitor or worse things. But most of the time she was doing what she was told, she had a misunderstood vision of the world and wasn't really prepared to face it.
She seems to be learning though. Thank God none of the show stuff with Rhamsey ever happened in the books! Had it happened to Sansa, I think she’d of killed herself. Seriously. Your own honor towards yourself has to be greater than the sick game the Rhamsey is playing. The only joy I got from that sick freak show that was Reek and Sansa’s shared trauma bond due to some seriously anti-human level emotions. Roose and Ramsey creep me out. I’d love to know if they have the same FM magic or a variation of it? Could stealing faces, skins, or even the trees themselves. We already know we have wargs, and all animals are magical in this world, according to GRRM. You can skin change animals, you’re own kind, and have multiple mounts, depending on your powers.
Love your podcasts hate that I missed it live. Loved what you said at the end Gray Area, when the Long Night comes it doesn't matter who sits on the throne but it would be good if its Daenerys.
Yes I absolutely think Thorne would have treated Jon differently if he knew he was a Targaryen. He may have even tried to suck up to Jon like “Yo, you’re Blood of the Dragon. Let’s take over this sh*t”
Well in my opinion, jon isnt better than anyone. Thorne is jealous, jon just wants to do what is right. Ned taught many lesson directly, "a man who passes judgement must swing the sword". Let your words be clear , that your actions speak your truth. Him making friends with sam and the "under dogs" per-say. His uncle did him a favor, experience teaches wisdom. Great job!! love this channel..
Lady Gray, we all know that Jon is not going 2 kill Daenerys in the books! I still stand with the Dragon Queen! Mormont's raven is being controlled by Bloodraven!
I think Dany and Jon were both drifting towards The Game in Dance, and we see if you play the game you win or you die (very black and white) and I think Ghost and (mormont/bloodravens) the crow was trying to lead Jon where he was meant to be but Jon fought his nature and what was important and got himself killed. Drogon and Quaithe seems to be interference with Dany at the end to get her back on the right path.
Thanks for calling out the double standards between Jon and Dany. Specifically show fans want to act like the Starks are these saint, monks, God giving gifts to the people of the north.
Random thoughts: Jon/Dany parallels: yes! They're both trying to use their power to reform institutions and finding it harder than it sounds. COTF maybe *are* out for revenge? I think Benjen's a bit of a jerk. My show theory is that Tyrion was replaced by his stupid twin Morion. Preston says something about the Whents also having skinchanging abilities (supposedly turning into bats), and they're Stark ancestors; but I forget if that's on the Stark side or the Tully side. I can't find the HOTD livescream for some reason.
Really don't know why 2 year old discussions are on TH-cam but I've been rewatching GOT, and this is great! There's just no SPOILERS, 😆 lol but again I wish I would have heard this back when the show was airing new! Good 👍 regardless 👍🖤🤘🏻
Can you really blame Jon for thinking he was better then his brothers? This was the first time in his life he could feel superior. The likes of Cat and Sansa made sure of that while in Winterfell. Its learned behavior. Hurt people hurt people.
Allister is the equivalent to the modern day drill sergeant.. It’s his job to harden them for the wall., not wipe tears and butts.. He doesn’t need to be liked, or loved.. if they do any those things then Sir Allister is failing his job.
About building Tyrion and Jon's friendship, I think it was meant for the love triangle from the original outline. To make their hatred for each other sadder when both fall in love with Arya. But now that George changed some things, I have no idea where this friendship could be going.
I'm still not convinced that Jon's mother is Lyana, cause in a certain Davos pov chapter in 'A Dance With Dragons' Davos learns that when Ned was escaping from the mad king to go call his banners there was a baby with him with a certain woman who named him Jon after Jon Arryn. And this was before he married Catelyn and before the war began.
Then Jon would have been at least 9 months older than Rob... more like a year. I think Catelyn would have noticed Jon was a toddler while her son was a newborn.
I’m not talking about succession, but yes it would matter to Catelyn if her husband’s bastard was a year older than her son. She would have mentioned it in her POV. She’s too salty not to bring something like that up. Also why would everyone lie to Jon about his age? It just doesn’t make logical sense. Like yeah I guess there is a small possibility that Jon isn’t Lyanna’s.... but the time frame you’re talking about doesn’t make sense.
Ned never had a baby with him when he snuck back to Winterfell from the Eyrie to call his banners. Perhaps the text can clear up the confusion. It's a bit long, but here goes: "At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fishermen drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn. Be that as it may. My father sat where I sit now when Lord Eddard came to Sisterton. Our maester urged us to send Stark's head to Aerys, to prove our loyalty. It would have meant a rich reward...By then we knew that Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown, though. Robert was the first man to gain the wall, and slew Marq Grafton with his own hand. 'This Baratheon is fearless,' I said. 'He fights the way a king should fight.' Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel. That was when Stark said, 'In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it's true...but what if we prevail? My father sent him on his way with his head still on his shoulders. 'If you lose,' he told Lord Eddard, 'you were never here.' " So, these passages tell us that Ned didn't have a baby with him when he arrived at Sisterton, nor when he left. It was merely alleged that he impregnated someone on his way there. Alleged, not proven. It's no different than the rumor about Ashara, Wylla the wet nurse, etc etc. And even if the fisherman's daughter was pregnant, there's no proof that Ned was the father, or even slept with this woman. I hope this helps.
When you talked at the end about the war between the houses and that the real war is up north I kinda got the vibe that it might be a Climate Change metaphor. Aka: All these politicians and companies squabbling with each other about everything else but ignoring experts on the field and stalling them when they call for action. "When the Long night comes we're all gonna die and then it doesn't matter who sits on the throne" could as well be applied to that. I really felt this strong sense of deja-vu while listening at the end because of that.
Benjen was under the radar with how he relates to Jon. Brothers of the Black should have no favorites,right? Besides, Benjen knows that he will always favor Jon but only when REALLY needed. The North remembers!!!
I love how George made everything for us to hate Euron. Oh you like pirates ? He cut off his people's tongues. You like sadistic characters ? He rapes his own brother. Like the more you know about him, the worst he gets.
I don't think Benjen is Cold Hands, but I think he's in the same state. A wight with free will. Orrrr my tinfoil idea is that Benjen is straight up dead but living a second life in his horse. His horse came back to The Wall.
I don’t think Jon will have the same issues as Berric and Catelyn with his resurrection. Jon will obviously be severely affected by the experience, but Berric was struggling because he had been resurrected so many times and Catelyn was decomposing and rotten. Thoros said flat out bringing Catelyn back was a horrible idea and she would be messed up. I definitely think it will cause Jon to be darker more fierce etc. but I don’t he will suffer the same fate as Berric or Cat unless he is resurrected several times or stays dead far too long than it would be a different situation. I think the ice will preserve his body unlike with the way Catelyn had already been decomposing. Hopefully we will find out his fate!!
I don't agree that Jon is the second strongest skinchanger after Bran, not right now at least. I'd say Arya is the second strongest skinchanger. Arya was only with Nymeria for a few months, yet her bond with Nymeria has extended across the Narrow Sea and is stronger than ever. Not only that but Arya isn't just a warg like Jon, she's an actual skinchanger as she can skinchange into wolves and cats. And according to Varamyr, skinchanging cats is supposed to be difficult yet Arya who is untrained, and isn't even aware she is a warg/skinchanger has no difficulty slipping into a cat's body to use it's eyes. I mean imagine what Arya will be able to do when she actually learns she is a skinchanger and she either gets trained or actively trains herself? She's going to be really powerful and I hope we see her reunite with Nymeria in TWOW and learn about her ability. Now I'm not dissing Jon as I love his character, but he is currently just a warg, a warg who knows he's a warg but actively avoids learning how to control that power or to get more powerful at this skill. I do think he will become more powerful as a warg and possibly as a skinchanger once he resurrects, and he might become more powerful than Arya, but right now in the books Arya exceeds Jon and I think she might always exceed him in this either way as Arya and Bran share a ton of parallels and narrative beats. And I think the culmination of these parallels and narrative beats will be them working together as skinchanger and greenseer in the War for the Dawn, and I think Arya is going to be a strong ally and council member (possibly Mistress of Whispers) in the endgame when Bran is made King. :)
There has to be a god or gods cause you need a maestro to keep things in order and magic is chaotic like a sword without a hilt, and there can't be one source magic like the gift of life can't be the same as gift of death even if they are both gifts.
Around 46:00 ish I have to disagree that the northerners won't let the free folk live with them south of the wall even tho they are the same people and don't let them settle out of ignorance. I mean their idea of getting a wife/ marrying is absolutely terrible. If you kidnap and rape a woman, she is your wife... that's a disgusting custom of them and probably the biggest reason they hate each other that and the raiding/pillaging but that would at least stop when they unite. Customs on the other hand don't go away so quick
I know that George is an atheist, and it's not uncommon for ppl to believe that magic can exist isolated from "Gods" however I do not. I understand magic to be manipulation of the present elements or a connection to super natural forces. I believe there has to be a greater unseen source for magic. The created have to have a creator, something from nothing doesn't make sense to me. Something and or everything from a creator beyond my understanding makes sense.
Jon Snow-too highborn for the Lowborn, and too lowborn, for the Highborn. People from all over the 7 Kingdoms are there. Probably a decent amount of people that followed the 7. Jon did not think this through. Very sheltered. Wanted to prove he wasn't a stain on Lord Stark's honor. And far too stubborn. "Jon wondered if his father had known what the Wall would be like. He must have, he thought; that only made it hurt the worse. Even his uncle had abandoned him in this cold place at the end of the world." Ned still blamed Lyanna and Rhaegar but couldn't take it out on them, so Jon got the short end of the stick. Get Jon to join the Night's Watch before telling him about his mother. Can't wear a Crown, can't hold lands, can't take a wife, and father no children. No threat to Robert, while Ned can still serve Robert loyally. If we give Ned the benefit of the doubt, that he didn't know, that makes him pretty incompetent. He would let his son, go to such a place? Why? Jon won't see Ned until he comes back from King's Landing. And that could be years from now. Heck, Ned could return to Winterfell, and Jon would never know. Unless, the Free Folk attack or the White Walkers attack.
No Alister thorn isn't a bad guy. He's a jaded old man who put Jon in his place. Jon was conceited at first. How many other cocky recruits has he trained and watched die. I guarantee Alister thorn would have been against killing Jon snow. He's an asshole but he isn't ruthless, and he is undoubtedly a man 100% for the watch. And he believes the others are coming. I think you will be surprised come winds of winter
Ok I know this isn’t the video for this buuuutttt... RLJ....I just feel it makes Jon super overpowered! Too cliched. I’m not saying it’s wrong. Just... He’s this powerful warg, potentially a green-seer, Azor Ahai, TPTWP, a dragon rider, Jesus, a saint, etc etc etc it’s like come on already 🙄 And I also don’t get why the King’s of Winter would waste their energy to come beyond the grave just to tell him he’s not a Stark. Especially considering that Lyanna dishonored the Stark name by being in the crypts and having a child with the family that cost them their crown.
Vaibhav Pachori Lol can no one be a dragon rider? Can the dragon having 3 heads just be a red herring. Book and show Daenerys has done pretty well controlling all 3.
@@uilliamunknown4844 book Daeneyrs couldn't even control Drogon forget about the other two. What does three heads of the dragon prophecy entails?? There are various interesting theories out there. I'm pretty much convinced that Aegon will take Rhaegal as his mount though because of the whole Greens and Blacks and the Dance of the Dragons
Vaibhav Pachori No, Daenerys has had control over all three in the books. It wasn’t until she locked them up that she lost control because i feel she was denying a part of herself. Overall I’m just skeptical about all of it because Daenerys isn’t setting sail for Westeros until roughly the end Winds of Winter. Or if it at all. She’s has a lot of plot to get through. So by time she arrives Cersei and (F)Aegon may have already decimated King’s Landing with war and wildfire.
Love your podcasts but the disconnection between you and the guest is too much just make bullet points of that chapter and then talk through those points. Jumping from one point from other randomly doesn’t work & in between laughing is too much cringe. Please take it as a improvement point of view.
![เจ็บที่ยังฮัก - ม่อน วรวิทย์ [ Official Mv ] จอนนี่มิวสิค](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KALIGSRSjFs/mqdefault.jpg)
I loved how Donal Noye gave Jon a wake up call about his privilege as a highborn bastard whose father raised him alongside his own children with the same level of education. Even among highborn bastards, he's very privileged. So it was great the way GRRM initially introduced him as being at a disadvantage due to his status only to reframe his situation so that status puts him above his peers. While Jon does feel like a typical stock character, that adds a lot of texture to his character.
One of my fav collabs so far! You and Rui have a very balanced back & forth, and I love that neither of you outspoke or interrupted each other. Really enjoyed this one!!!
It just hit me... When the wall falls the actual shockwave will be huge! It will be like a magnitude 9 earthquake.
Jon’s time with the wildlings bettered him cause he got some lol
😂🤣🤣🤣ginger minge
😂, she made him a man.
Lmao
I love that Jon is such a fantastically written character you can go from initially reading that chapter with him being arrogant with Benjen and thinking he was just "trying" to help to seeing how absolutely green and arrogant of a boy he was. The show does it dirty with just how truly young Jon is too, he is literally 15(?) when he leaves Winterfell for the Wall in the books. It's so interesting seeing his character progression where I am in the story right now; finishing a Dance with Dragons.
I love these podcasts. Going through a hard time and you totally get my mind off it. Thanks so much!
Glad I can help.. hope u feel better... & it will always get better❤️
Lovey love LOVE!!! GIIIIIRL! I love this guest!!! The repore between you two is the Vibe!!!
🖤🤍🖤🤍
You've GOTTA have him return!!
As always Ms. Gray, ur podcasts make my day!!
Rui is returning for sureeeeee! I had so much fun recording with him!!!
Great guest today. You two have wonderful chemistry and i would love to hear you two do a few more of these. Thanks for the juice mama! ❤
So glad Rui mentiones that he thinks that the Children did not create the Others. I fully agree! They seem like a magical race of their own, very different from any other, with their own language and culture. I believe the Children simply gave them weapons: warging ablilties, and through that -- the power to raise the dead.
I love how we all know Barbery Dustin is thirsty for Brandon Stark
Also if Brandon went to the Eyrie instead they would compete on making the 8 😂
I badly want to read what Allister Thorne does, once he finds out Jon is Rhaegar's son. - I think it will be like Jaime lecturing his sworn brothers about Arthur Dayne. What a great fighter and great leader he was - and 'Ghost' overhearing and thinking 'ah, now that's news.' I'd love that, it would be a comical relief before the wall breaks.
Actually ravens can talk in the real world too. They can learn words, they are very smart. ;)
*I like this deeper insightful collab*
Gray Lady returns
So is Benjen's death paying for Bran's life? Jon sees Benjen in the snow,the snow drinking up his blood...end of the chapter,the good news...Bran lives and wakes up. In Brans chapter,he flies or he dies...
Tyrion became dumb because the show runners and writers didn't have GRRM's written dialogue to carry the character. Same happened with Varys and Littlefinger
It seemed to me that D&D just didn't know how to express what they wanted for those characters. 'They kinda forgot how to write'.
I feel like Benjen was trying to make Jon uncomfortable at the watch, hoping he would change his mind. He didn’t know Jon would ironically be inducted early to find him.
That's an interesting idea,he was closest to Lyanna,nearly 100% sure he knew the truth and probably wanted to slap Ned for not forbidding he join the watch
@@kingofkings3624 Then why would he say shit like "We could use men like you at the watch"
Can imagine a anime exactly like in the books amazing art in this video 👏👏👏
Sad as it is many people have sexually abused their siblings. Well really elevated him is the callousness. Usually family will hush hush or have some shame those kind of dynamics. I suppose straight up denial is probably the most common. But this is yup I totally did it to ya here and now I’m gonna cut off the tongue of my baby mama. It’s quite terrifying. It does make me wonder how the Flowers girl was so sure Euron loved her. He is not remotely sentimental. But yes terrifying
I've wanted jon to go out like the daemon targaryen since I read the rouge prince. He is the prince that was promised, not the king that was promised
Maybe as the king of winter he sacrifices himself to save his people
I always thought Benjen as Coldhands made the most sense, but I finished my reread of ADwD recently, and I’m pretty sure Bran looked on Coldhands’ face on several occasions, so he really can’t be Benjen.
There is a video on youtube "george rr martin on why he created so many characters" in which he states that Jon's plot is the ice and Danaerys is the fire of A Song of Ice and Fire. This is the chapter that really introduces us to this plot and the dynamics of what is really going on in the world. In the preceding chapter Jon and Tyrion have the famous discussion about grumpkins and snarks that really solidifies that plotlines. Thorne is actually a great catalyst because he personifies that brick wall that Jon couldn't break down because he wouldn't accept Jon's attitude of arrogance. Benjen does the same thing. If Jon is really going to be a MAN of the Night's Watch, he needs to become a team player and at Winterfell, he was never allowed to be a part of the team.
I feel close to the Starks. I grew up in a military family, on military bases. I was like Sansa. I was taught how to be a Lady and told that as long as Im good, good things will happen. I was let down. Exactly the way Sansa was, many times.
Usually people complain about Sansa being dumb or naive, a traitor or worse things. But most of the time she was doing what she was told, she had a misunderstood vision of the world and wasn't really prepared to face it.
She seems to be learning though. Thank God none of the show stuff with Rhamsey ever happened in the books! Had it happened to Sansa, I think she’d of killed herself. Seriously. Your own honor towards yourself has to be greater than the sick game the Rhamsey is playing. The only joy I got from that sick freak show that was Reek and Sansa’s shared trauma bond due to some seriously anti-human level emotions. Roose and Ramsey creep me out. I’d love to know if they have the same FM magic or a variation of it?
Could stealing faces, skins, or even the trees themselves. We already know we have wargs, and all animals are magical in this world, according to GRRM. You can skin change animals, you’re own kind, and have multiple mounts, depending on your powers.
Come thru Rui... I hear ya vibbing with Grey!!! Great colab this one is!!!
Love your podcasts hate that I missed it live.
Loved what you said at the end Gray Area, when the Long Night comes it doesn't matter who sits on the throne but it would be good if its Daenerys.
This was the perfect mix.
Lord snow definitely is a foreshadow for Lord Commander.
Yes I absolutely think Thorne would have treated Jon differently if he knew he was a Targaryen. He may have even tried to suck up to Jon like “Yo, you’re Blood of the Dragon. Let’s take over this sh*t”
Only read the first book, this is going to be a reading of the best quality!
Great conversation, folks, thanks a bunch! 📖📚
Well in my opinion, jon isnt better than anyone. Thorne is jealous, jon just wants to do what is right. Ned taught many lesson directly, "a man who passes judgement must swing the sword". Let your words be clear , that your actions speak your truth. Him making friends with sam and the "under dogs" per-say. His uncle did him a favor, experience teaches wisdom. Great job!! love this channel..
Ned tempered Robert, him and Brandon?! Pandemonium!
I also really do not think the dragons can travel beyond the wall. I believe the magic that keeps ice to the north also keeps fire to the south.
Juice time!!!
Gray Area!!!
GA!!!
Lady Gray, we all know that Jon is not going 2 kill Daenerys in the books! I still stand with the Dragon Queen! Mormont's raven is being controlled by Bloodraven!
Ahhhh one of my favorite subjects. The KING IN THE NORF!!!!
I think Dany and Jon were both drifting towards The Game in Dance, and we see if you play the game you win or you die (very black and white) and I think Ghost and (mormont/bloodravens) the crow was trying to lead Jon where he was meant to be but Jon fought his nature and what was important and got himself killed. Drogon and Quaithe seems to be interference with Dany at the end to get her back on the right path.
Thanks for calling out the double standards between Jon and Dany. Specifically show fans want to act like the Starks are these saint, monks, God giving gifts to the people of the north.
I loved the content and the chemistry between you two. Great video.
You two have great discussion chemistry, loved it! This was both super interesting and funny!
Jon taking out the Night king or white walkers has to be the book version. Otherwise why the comparisons between Weymar Royce and Jon or the Starks?
Great discussion!!
Are these still in podcast form? I need this juice while I'm on the go.
Barely got around to see your so good, Yeah i see jon also being a sacrifice and dany is going to have to do it maybe not.
There's a meme here in Brazil that it's translated to : you did nothing more than you were supposed to. And that's Jon fighting with the newbies
Random thoughts: Jon/Dany parallels: yes! They're both trying to use their power to reform institutions and finding it harder than it sounds. COTF maybe *are* out for revenge? I think Benjen's a bit of a jerk. My show theory is that Tyrion was replaced by his stupid twin Morion. Preston says something about the Whents also having skinchanging abilities (supposedly turning into bats), and they're Stark ancestors; but I forget if that's on the Stark side or the Tully side. I can't find the HOTD livescream for some reason.
Really don't know why 2 year old discussions are on TH-cam but I've been rewatching GOT, and this is great! There's just no SPOILERS, 😆 lol but again I wish I would have heard this back when the show was airing new! Good 👍 regardless 👍🖤🤘🏻
Can you really blame Jon for thinking he was better then his brothers? This was the first time in his life he could feel superior. The likes of Cat and Sansa made sure of that while in Winterfell. Its learned behavior. Hurt people hurt people.
Allister is the equivalent to the modern day drill sergeant.. It’s his job to harden them for the wall., not wipe tears and butts.. He doesn’t need to be liked, or loved.. if they do any those things then Sir Allister is failing his job.
About building Tyrion and Jon's friendship, I think it was meant for the love triangle from the original outline. To make their hatred for each other sadder when both fall in love with Arya. But now that George changed some things, I have no idea where this friendship could be going.
I'm still not convinced that Jon's mother is Lyana, cause in a certain Davos pov chapter in 'A Dance With Dragons' Davos learns that when Ned was escaping from the mad king to go call his banners there was a baby with him with a certain woman who named him Jon after Jon Arryn. And this was before he married Catelyn and before the war began.
Then Jon would have been at least 9 months older than Rob... more like a year. I think Catelyn would have noticed Jon was a toddler while her son was a newborn.
@@kiyakia would that matter in Catelyn's eyes and would it matter in the succession since Jon was labeled as a bastard.
I’m not talking about succession, but yes it would matter to Catelyn if her husband’s bastard was a year older than her son. She would have mentioned it in her POV. She’s too salty not to bring something like that up. Also why would everyone lie to Jon about his age? It just doesn’t make logical sense. Like yeah I guess there is a small possibility that Jon isn’t Lyanna’s.... but the time frame you’re talking about doesn’t make sense.
Ned never had a baby with him when he snuck back to Winterfell from the Eyrie to call his banners. Perhaps the text can clear up the confusion. It's a bit long, but here goes:
"At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fishermen drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.
Be that as it may. My father sat where I sit now when Lord Eddard came to Sisterton. Our maester urged us to send Stark's head to Aerys, to prove our loyalty. It would have meant a rich reward...By then we knew that Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown, though. Robert was the first man to gain the wall, and slew Marq Grafton with his own hand. 'This Baratheon is fearless,' I said. 'He fights the way a king should fight.' Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel. That was when Stark said, 'In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it's true...but what if we prevail? My father sent him on his way with his head still on his shoulders. 'If you lose,' he told Lord Eddard, 'you were never here.' "
So, these passages tell us that Ned didn't have a baby with him when he arrived at Sisterton, nor when he left. It was merely alleged that he impregnated someone on his way there. Alleged, not proven. It's no different than the rumor about Ashara, Wylla the wet nurse, etc etc. And even if the fisherman's daughter was pregnant, there's no proof that Ned was the father, or even slept with this woman. I hope this helps.
That text pull is from ADWD Davos I, if anyone was curious.
When you talked at the end about the war between the houses and that the real war is up north I kinda got the vibe that it might be a Climate Change metaphor. Aka: All these politicians and companies squabbling with each other about everything else but ignoring experts on the field and stalling them when they call for action. "When the Long night comes we're all gonna die and then it doesn't matter who sits on the throne" could as well be applied to that. I really felt this strong sense of deja-vu while listening at the end because of that.
You need to do your own What if channel I see some 2 hour story about if Brandon stark survived
Benjen was under the radar with how he relates to Jon. Brothers of the Black should have no favorites,right? Besides, Benjen knows that he will always favor Jon but only when REALLY needed. The North remembers!!!
I love how George made everything for us to hate Euron. Oh you like pirates ? He cut off his people's tongues. You like sadistic characters ? He rapes his own brother. Like the more you know about him, the worst he gets.
Love that intro
This was a GREAT discussion!
Brandon was very skilled with his bloody blade
Time for the Juice!
I really think that Lady Stoneheart will resurrect John. It’ll be her redemption.
Lady Gray with the JUUICCCCCE
I don't think Benjen is Cold Hands, but I think he's in the same state. A wight with free will. Orrrr my tinfoil idea is that Benjen is straight up dead but living a second life in his horse. His horse came back to The Wall.
Thats a great idea. The starks do warg into their direwolves rught after death, thats what happened to Rob
Your brilliant character and humor is the first thing that brings me here not my love for SOIAF. ❤️
Give me the Juice!
I don’t think Jon will have the same issues as Berric and Catelyn with his resurrection. Jon will obviously be severely affected by the experience, but Berric was struggling because he had been resurrected so many times and Catelyn was decomposing and rotten. Thoros said flat out bringing Catelyn back was a horrible idea and she would be messed up. I definitely think it will cause Jon to be darker more fierce etc. but I don’t he will suffer the same fate as Berric or Cat unless he is resurrected several times or stays dead far too long than it would be a different situation. I think the ice will preserve his body unlike with the way Catelyn had already been decomposing. Hopefully we will find out his fate!!
Yesssss to everything about this stream, you two were sooo good. Lady Dustin needs to let it go honey
I want to see Jonerys Night's king and queen
Jon also has Flint herritage and house flint particularly Arya Flint who was executed.
I know I'm late but I'd loveeeee to see a collab with you and Hills Alive. Her theories are mad and i love them
Edit: especially about sansa 🤣🤣🤣
Juuuiiiiccccceeeee!!!!!!
I don't agree that Jon is the second strongest skinchanger after Bran, not right now at least. I'd say Arya is the second strongest skinchanger. Arya was only with Nymeria for a few months, yet her bond with Nymeria has extended across the Narrow Sea and is stronger than ever. Not only that but Arya isn't just a warg like Jon, she's an actual skinchanger as she can skinchange into wolves and cats. And according to Varamyr, skinchanging cats is supposed to be difficult yet Arya who is untrained, and isn't even aware she is a warg/skinchanger has no difficulty slipping into a cat's body to use it's eyes. I mean imagine what Arya will be able to do when she actually learns she is a skinchanger and she either gets trained or actively trains herself? She's going to be really powerful and I hope we see her reunite with Nymeria in TWOW and learn about her ability. Now I'm not dissing Jon as I love his character, but he is currently just a warg, a warg who knows he's a warg but actively avoids learning how to control that power or to get more powerful at this skill. I do think he will become more powerful as a warg and possibly as a skinchanger once he resurrects, and he might become more powerful than Arya, but right now in the books Arya exceeds Jon and I think she might always exceed him in this either way as Arya and Bran share a ton of parallels and narrative beats. And I think the culmination of these parallels and narrative beats will be them working together as skinchanger and greenseer in the War for the Dawn, and I think Arya is going to be a strong ally and council member (possibly Mistress of Whispers) in the endgame when Bran is made King. :)
luv the intro!!!!!!
I missed the last two so.... Let's see how this goes. I'm not not a huge fan of Jon in general so I am looking forward to this discussion.
great video
Lady Dustin was sprung over Brandon because he took her maiden head
I dunno why I but friggin love Lady Dustin 🤣
GRRM PLANNED IT ALL
There has to be a god or gods cause you need a maestro to keep things in order and magic is chaotic like a sword without a hilt, and there can't be one source magic like the gift of life can't be the same as gift of death even if they are both gifts.
Around 46:00 ish I have to disagree that the northerners won't let the free folk live with them south of the wall even tho they are the same people and don't let them settle out of ignorance. I mean their idea of getting a wife/ marrying is absolutely terrible. If you kidnap and rape a woman, she is your wife... that's a disgusting custom of them and probably the biggest reason they hate each other that and the raiding/pillaging but that would at least stop when they unite. Customs on the other hand don't go away so quick
was there a wall of ice along the five forts?
George’s terms about Berick being a clue for Jon’s future is questionable. If you pay attention the interviewer kind of puts that in.
I know that George is an atheist, and it's not uncommon for ppl to believe that magic can exist isolated from "Gods" however I do not. I understand magic to be manipulation of the present elements or a connection to super natural forces. I believe there has to be a greater unseen source for magic. The created have to have a creator, something from nothing doesn't make sense to me. Something and or everything from a creator beyond my understanding makes sense.
How does Jon have Dayne and Blackwood lineage?
Jon Snow-too highborn for the Lowborn, and too lowborn, for the Highborn.
People from all over the 7 Kingdoms are there. Probably a decent amount of people that followed the 7.
Jon did not think this through. Very sheltered. Wanted to prove he wasn't a stain on Lord Stark's honor. And far too stubborn.
"Jon wondered if his father had known what the Wall would be like. He must have, he thought; that only made it hurt the worse. Even his uncle had abandoned him in this cold place at the end of the world."
Ned still blamed Lyanna and Rhaegar but couldn't take it out on them, so Jon got the short end of the stick.
Get Jon to join the Night's Watch before telling him about his mother. Can't wear a Crown, can't hold lands, can't take a wife, and father no children. No threat to Robert, while Ned can still serve Robert loyally.
If we give Ned the benefit of the doubt, that he didn't know, that makes him pretty incompetent. He would let his son, go to such a place? Why?
Jon won't see Ned until he comes back from King's Landing. And that could be years from now.
Heck, Ned could return to Winterfell, and Jon would never know. Unless, the Free Folk attack or the White Walkers attack.
Drenched in Juice
7:07 Bruhhhhh
GrrM is the best 😅
Love you grey you're awesome
😍😍😍
Illegal eviction
Hampton inn Loyola
Already know.
Lines down.
Flood them.
25:54 Kinda like a tulpa?
I want Jon to stay away from my baby Dany. I don't hate Jon but he does get on my nerves.
No Alister thorn isn't a bad guy. He's a jaded old man who put Jon in his place. Jon was conceited at first. How many other cocky recruits has he trained and watched die. I guarantee Alister thorn would have been against killing Jon snow. He's an asshole but he isn't ruthless, and he is undoubtedly a man 100% for the watch. And he believes the others are coming. I think you will be surprised come winds of winter
Ok I know this isn’t the video for this buuuutttt... RLJ....I just feel it makes Jon super overpowered! Too cliched. I’m not saying it’s wrong. Just...
He’s this powerful warg, potentially a green-seer, Azor Ahai, TPTWP, a dragon rider, Jesus, a saint, etc etc etc it’s like come on already 🙄
And I also don’t get why the King’s of Winter would waste their energy to come beyond the grave just to tell him he’s not a Stark. Especially considering that Lyanna dishonored the Stark name by being in the crypts and having a child with the family that cost them their crown.
Jon being a dragon rider is another show only thing that will not happen in the books.
Three dragons, three riders-: Daeneyrs, Aegon & Tyrion/Euron
Vaibhav Pachori
Lol can no one be a dragon rider? Can the dragon having 3 heads just be a red herring. Book and show Daenerys has done pretty well controlling all 3.
@@uilliamunknown4844 book Daeneyrs couldn't even control Drogon forget about the other two. What does three heads of the dragon prophecy entails?? There are various interesting theories out there.
I'm pretty much convinced that Aegon will take Rhaegal as his mount though because of the whole Greens and Blacks and the Dance of the Dragons
Vaibhav Pachori
No, Daenerys has had control over all three in the books. It wasn’t until she locked them up that she lost control because i feel she was denying a part of herself.
Overall I’m just skeptical about all of it because Daenerys isn’t setting sail for Westeros until roughly the end Winds of Winter. Or if it at all. She’s has a lot of plot to get through. So by time she arrives Cersei and (F)Aegon may have already decimated King’s Landing with war and wildfire.
Jon snow should have been king ,sit the iron throne, not Bran the weird and broken
I loved the video but is that guy eating something. All I seem to hear is smacking.
Don't you mean N+A=J 👀
Love your podcasts but the disconnection between you and the guest is too much just make bullet points of that chapter and then talk through those points. Jumping from one point from other randomly doesn’t work & in between laughing is too much cringe. Please take it as a improvement point of view.
✌