Jordan, you are the only person, on TH-cam and every other social media platform, that I find myself preparing to listen to. What I mean is that all the talking heads are so easy to listen to and to understand that usually what they say goes in one ear and out the other. But when I listen to you speak, I need to be in a comfortable and quiet setting so that I can listen to every word you say. And the reason is because what you are saying is so profound and so necessary that I want to learn as much as I can. Often times I rewatch the same talks so that in case I didn’t fully understand something you said, I can digest it properly. Thanks for what you do, sir. I, like many other people in the world, appreciate what you are doing. I see what you are doing and I applaud you. I wish you and your family the very best, sir.
1% difference aye? Eyes different, brains are FAR DIFFERENT, every single appendage is different in stature, they have different bone structures than we do, they're designed for slightly different diets than us, we can't eat tree bark! You have to be insane to claim there is a 1% genetic difference, yet a 99% intellectual difference. That's a laugh. Their hair develops differently than ours, their pigmentation is different than ours, skin is different than ours [even if it's the same material genetics determine each and every factor.] I'd seriously like to know, who has verified this 1% theory and when was it last updated. 💯🤡😅
Jordan, you are the one person I enjoy and look forward to hearing. As a homeschooling mom, I get very little time to myself. I usually listen to you while I’m cooking dinner (if my kids aren’t helping me and my husband isn’t telling me about his day at work!) I truly look forward to spending my “me time” listening to your interviews. I appreciate you and the people you interview! Please don’t ever stop! Prayers to you and your family to always be strong in the tough times you face speaking truth and seeking truth!
Jordan, I like that after your recovery your pace has slowed just slightly. It's a positive not a negative. It was so hard to keep up 100% with your thoughts before, now you are a little more relaxed and tend to take your time. Resulting in more effective communication in the first pass. What a great interview. Riveting for an hour and 45min. Amazing. Love you, Brother.
Aside from the stunning things I learned about the topic, JP has once again astounded me with how he approaches a topic and how he comes to his positions. It’s like the world is one big magic show & I’m expected to sit in the audience, accept at face value the tricks I see on the stage, and not question things. JP takes me backstage, shows me the props and how they work, then backs it up by pointing out exactly how the “magician” uses those props to perform the trick. I can see why so many consider him a danger- they don’t want their tricks revealed. Bless you Jordan, the world needs you!
@@simian_essence Disagree. Despite being 14 years younger, Peterson as a philosopher operates in large intellectual frames, by which he absorbs provided by Wrangham's field findings and facts.
I am extremely pleased with the interviewer in this video. He asks exactly the question I would have liked to ask the expert and he is extremely well prepared.
Great episode Jordan! The quality of your interview subjects is second to none! I've been listening to you and reading your books for over 5 years now and you never ever disappoint. Please keep up the wonderful work, you will only grow in popularity exponentially and the critics don't matter because they don't even listen to what you actually say. We love you buddy. Edit: this was an amazing podcast. who knew such a perfect combo would be a clinical psychologist genius and a geniuis level primatologist. what a damn pleasure we have being able to hear this conversation. I love these longform talks 😁
@@CalebBerman , if God loves us then there would be no disease or sickness or all this natural disasters, although most of the disease has been eliminated or are being cured or treated, only by those people who went ahead without the concept of believing that God will save us and worked hard by questioning the mystery surroundings us, if not, we humans would never be in the place we are right now.
Human Evolution - we are a unique species, with many similarities to Chimpanzees, but distinctly different, as Michelangelo so brilliantly captured in his Creation of Adam.
@@warrenbuffett920 You are very disillusioned. Humanism is based on a bias that human reasoning is a valid tool to understand existence, which according to honest scientists, says the world should not exist from our philosophy of science. Beware of godless indoctrination.
Ah I love how Dr. Peterson is always so genuinely welcoming towards his podguests! One can really tell that they feel truly appreciated. Always puts a natural smile on my face when they wrap up :)
I just finished Prof. Richard Wrangham’s “The Goodness Paradox”. It’s a wonderfully illuminating book that puts into perspective the human condition as understood through the lens of evolution. Thank you, again, Prof. Peterson for interviewing another brilliant guest and helping me add to my growing catalogue of books!
Former Associate Prof. here in Japan (undergrad biology UNC-W, grad school - Education Temple University Japan) watching this great show. I am a big fan of primatologist Frans de Waal too - who posits the roots of human morality as in the empathy and reciprocity of some social animals. I put those two variables at different levels of abstraction, and have redefined human morality for myself as simply 'empathy driven behavior'. Rule driven behavior (that of customs, traditions, laws, algorithms , etc.) is a necessary neural re-routing of direct empathy when we exceed Dunbar's number. I was intrigued by the conversation enough to have bought the Kindle version of Wrangham's first book, and suspect that in-group, out-group violence is a legitimate counter argument to parallel economies at the community level proposed to counter to the recent rise in concentrations of political/economic power at the expense of individual rights. I am literate enough in history to be aware of Unit 731 and Howard Zinn ... and Dunbar's number alone can not account for the human-created horror. By the way, the 1980's Japanese movie ... 'The Ballad of Narayama', where people who reach the age of 70 are taken to the mountain top to die. This year, 2022 at the Cannes Film Festival, Japanese director Chie Hayakawa is revisiting the theme of encouraged suicide of the elderly, but at the age of 75. Though I've lived here in Japan for the last 40 years, I'll be 67 this September. That gives me eight more at the most. ;-)
I don't think empathy is the primary driver of morality. I think the primary driver is the need to control free riders of various kinds, individuals who seek to benefit themselves at the expense of other group members.
@@michaels4255 Hi Michaels. Thanks for an alternative idea, and for the implicit acknowledgement that this topic is important in these times of 'wokeness'. Frans de Waal puts reciprocity on an equal footing with empathy, so he might agree with you. But in thinking about it, I am wondering about two things ... 1) - this might involve more complex thinking such as first identifying, then comparing and contrasting, then calculating in comparison with others in the group, then considering strategies for control, and ... 2) - whereas mirror neurons might account from immediate empathy, I'm wondering what morphological feature might be most highly correlated with the above functions. Cheers from Japan! steve
One of the best interviews I’ve listened to on this podcast so far.I thought I knew something about chimpanzees but I realize that I really didn’t know much at all. I love to watch chimpanzees at the zoo. Now that I have more knowledge my overall experience will be deeper and more rewarding. Thank you
Just try to find ANYTHING anymore on TV of this caliber. "Nature" shows and history shows used to do this kind of intellectual work in the 80s. I have the old shows on VHS to prove it.
This was an exceedingly fascinating talk/interview! I think I developed another synapse extension or two. I look forward to hearing from this man again and will definitely read the books. Dr. Peterson, your interview skills have become well-defined and it's a joy to tune in to these podcasts. Thank you.
conversations like this one re-emphasizes why the JBP podcast is the no.1 educational podcast in the World. Can't wait to hear more in the future with Frans de Waal!
This is the very first time that I see anybody outsmarting Jordan in so many occasions. Typically, Jordan always is very close to the right track, but in this opportunity Mr. Wrangham widely (not wildly) controverted some of his opinions. Great from Jordan to have listened and learned from the expert, which is admirable given him being a professor, a fkn good one, so knowledgeable on many things, capable of leaving his pride on the side and get ready to learn from an expert. This was fantastic from both of them. Thank you!
I remember reading about Jane Goodall, watching television documentaries about her and her work, reading articles she'd written, and attending one of her lectures. She definitely knew that chimp warfare would be explosive news, she was accused of making it up, and the skepticism and disbelief didn't really die out until other researchers documented the same behavior. Until others found the same behavior, there was also a lot of conjecture that the troop she was observing were somehow aberrant, unique; even that her watching them had somehow disturbed the troop, caused them such anxiety, etc., that she was causing the violence.
@@Ohitswilly I think they imagined them just fine. It was not wanting to accept the implications as reality that led to the unethical attacks on Goodall's character. A certain level of professional skepticism until more data about other troops came in was appropriate, but the closed-minded nastiness wasn't. People/researchers/scientists still do the same thing, smearing and "deplatforming" without evidence those whom they disagree with.
Think it was David Attenborough crew who captured footage of a planned and executed murder..and the hunting and eating alive of monkeys..Give me a Gorrilla or orangutan anyday, these things are too much like us ..sadly
@@LynxSouth this sound like scholars who claim an arceologist faked/ misinterpreted his findings in Minoans temple as human sacrifice,when not only it's common things in the area and age,but also get recorded in myth where Athens have to send children of Noble as offering,a pattern that echo the bibilical record of sacrificing sons as both would hold role of heir
The 1974 - 1978 Gombe war. They developed warfare with some characteristics almost identical to how humans would conduct strategy and battle. It was what Jane Goodall was shocked by to learn about their aggressive, warlike behavior.
The best conversation I have EVER listened to and the best 1 hour 45 minutes when I've learned so much about human instinct, eating habits, evolution....
You believe in evolution correct? Can u explain to my evolving brain, how we came from one ancestor when we have 20 different amino acids? Explain that idea of one common ancestor. DNA alone doesn't make life. You have to have so much more that gives life. Ex protein, cell membranes, and all depend on each other. Natural selection cant happen without life I need someone to explain to me how this damn bacteria from outer space (big bang) came to earth and turned into a fish and later damn monkey after millions of year's of adaptation and evolution. Everything depends on plants grabbing sunlight and storing that energy in sugar molecules. And if that didn’t exist nothing would exist can u explain why we need everything to work together. Do u think it's just random acts or it was more of a creator /designer? Well I believe in a creator 👌🏿👀 just look at our cells. The trillions of cells in our body that is smarter than any computer programmer chip. High intelligence u think these things are ransom of a more power designer. 🙏🏿 God bless all evolutionists so far the idea of a creator still stands.
@@rodericfuerst Well, it's clear that women doing the cooking freed men up to do all kinds of things. That's one thing that the woke environment would point out.
Loved the conversation ... when he said , do you have 1 hour and half ? I was so happy, unfortunately was not the day but it brought me joy to know that he enjoyed to share his knowledge in this conversation and he was ready to go even longer. Thank you for the both of you.
1:18:18 One of the things interesting to note about most Native American Tribes, no matter what name they were known as to others, their own name for their tribe was normally translated as _The People,_ or _The Human Beings,_ ALL Other tribes were _Others._
As a former zoologist/ecologist and now science teacher (and psychology hobbyist), this discussion on primate behaviour was extremely interesting and though provoking, what a match up!
The elephant story in the beginning made me laugh, even moreso when Jordan said it sounded like it would be hard to get that study approved nowadays. 🤣
Fascinating discussion. Interesting the direction of that IRB comment went only along safety to humans. Little concern for shooting an experimental drug into the elephant or the possible injury caused but pushing them over. Just saying...
It's beautiful to find such an eloquent dialogue between two brilliant minds and see how knowledge grows with shared experience. Nutrition for the spirit.
I absolutely loved this. And I really love seeing the guests face light up when Jordan shows real interest in their field of study, like knowing how they used to study genetic differences by literally pulling DNA apart. Must be such a relief for the guest knowing they aren't having to start from the ground up
@@riohenry6382 if honesty is relevant, which I don’t think it is when swapping thoughts and ideas personally. In fact you could argue that keeping everyone anonymous benefits discussion
@@riohenry6382 Nothing he said was less honest, because he didn't referenced his identity with his birth name. Frankly to me your ideology seems to revolve more around fascism than honesty. At least you just come across as ignorant and arrogant.
@@riohenry6382 stupid questions and bad puns. What a clown. Calling me uptight for using a Nickname, I see 😂 Good to know that Rio Henry is a paranoid facist. Oh wait no it isnt. IT is useless information.
@@riohenry6382 dude you are not making any sense. If you are to stupid to get my point thats on you. And the fact that you feel like I am calling you names is, because my opinion of you is pretty low.
@@TheHulksMistress keeping everyone anonymous reduces stress and allows people to ask questions they feel like they could be ridiculed for, as long as the chat is between reasonable people I find it hard to see a downside that couldn't be solved by separate non-anonymous chats
That was a brilliant conversation! One of the best on the podcast as far as I'm concerned. Can we have more of those, please? I will definitely read his books, I'm not a biologist, but the topic is fascinating.
Fully agree but I find it astonishing how JP closed the discussion when an anthropologic explanation of males dominance over woman and abuse of their position of power to dictate the moral code, was given. I was expecting some kind of comment yet he just closed the discussion. Hmmm interesting !
@@Fatrotry If you listen to Dr Wrangham on Lex Fridman podcast he seems to have an outdated view that women aren't malicious and getting rid of men would lead to Shangri-La...most psychology has proven psychopathy is nearly as prevalent in women than men it just manifests differently due to culture and how little we understand the dark side of man and woman.
The Japanese movie Jordan Peterson mentioned was "The Ballad of Narayama" and it really is hard-hitting. It's notable that - in modern society at least - communication is considered more the realm of women, who in a way "weave the fabric if society" through their interactions. I think the possible (albeit less visible) role of the females of the species in this far-reaching chang of the social structure of our species should not be entirely overlooked - as it has been by the esteemed professor(s).
Well the opening statement was about differences between human/chimps on the one side and every other species on the other. It was not to diminish female contributions to anything! (But female cooperative groups are the rule in the animal kingdom - male groups are the exception!)
Women tend to engage in communication more frequently, and tend to be more familiar with it, while men have tended to be the innovators of the means of communication. Looking at the discovery/invention of logic, developments in mathematics (an abstract system of symbolic representation and communication), innovations in genres of literature and in the sciences (which bring new concepts into language, the overwhelming majority of new creations that expand the domain of what can be talked about accurately and effectively, and which have stood the test of the survival of the fittest, and have proved of value to subsequent generations, have been accomplished by men. -- At least one woman in the field of linguistics has noted that much of women's talk is "chatter." One cannot deny that there have been many women who have made huge contributions to poetry, prose, logic, mathematics, and science, but when one gets past the feminizing bias of recent centuries, a more even-handed analysis of the creative-destruction processes involved in EFFECTIVE innovation will show that their being boosted by testosterone-fueled impulses has been demonstrated throughout history.
What a wonderful interview. I've always enjoyed anthropology and the study of social systems. I truly enjoy your interviews mostly because you're not only highly intelligent but know a great deal about the subjects talked about. Thank you again.
Yes, it almost Peterson at his best as it tends to keep him away from obsessive references to Biblical stories. He seems to give himself more freedom for creative thinking in such interviews and is less of a Christian zealot.
@@larrylaye9276 Unfortunately, Lennox is an elderly and unproductive liar for the baby jesus, whilst Hovind is merely a shyster, therefore both can be dismissed as irrelevant to this particular conversation.
Wow. Fantastic conversation! I feel you guys were just getting to some really interesting topics and speculative evolutionary biology concepts from this discussion. I cannot wait to hear you two continue this in the future.
I like the fact that Jordan asked Richard about his period spend in Africa when he was 17. It probably would have just been overlooked by other interviewers but it showed so much about Richard as a young man - very revealing about his development. Loved about the tail pulling on the elephant !
This was a fantastic listen, thank you both. We owe so much to these people who dedicate years of their life in pursuit of very niche but crucial information in the discovery of our roots.
Self domestication brought about by male cooperation through communication. How much time is required in our food preparation and how our saving that time has contributed our development. Two great ideas I had never considered before. Great content.
Yes, Dion: Saving time with cooked food, let me to thinking of saved time with Slaves. I then went on to thinking how food preparation usually by women has changed in suburban society and freed women to enter what had been the world of men. Just some casual thoughts needing deeper thought - and time!
Very enlightening conversation. This kind conversations help curious generalists like myself to understand evolution of human values over time without having to read lengthy multiple books. Thanks to both Dr Peterson and the professor Wrangham for brining it to us.
Very interesting and I can see how it relates to our primordial instincts as humans... however, we humans are not apes..... we might physically be much weaker, but what made us humans top of the food chain is the combination of brain power and tool making to do the fighting for us. A pack of lions can have all the muscles and physical strength in the world but it won't last 5 seconds against someone with an AK47 that just shoots it to bits, the lions will just be slaughtered like sheep; cannon fodder; which our cousins in the animal kingdom lack... which is why I think what the west does is extremely stupid with the strength of atom bombs we have today... like what is the US gonna do... watch out over the waste lands of their entire cities turned to dust by Russia's nukes and say 'I know it looks bad, but you should see the other guy.'.... Like the politicians of today have NO CLUE what the atom bomb did for horrors to Hiroshima and Nagasaki; and those are child's play toys compared to today's hydrogen bombs.... on top of that, the west can certainly start a war, but I'm pretty certain they can't win a war; particularly as Russia, China and the Middle East join forces as the west has been pushing for, for the last 2 decades.
Such a good interview! Your style puts me at ease listening, and seems to have a profound affect on your interactions with Dr. Wrangman. Amazing content Dr. Peterson, unbelievably sincere. Thank you.
I’ve been binge watching/listening to all of JBP podcasts…starting with the most recent as of 5/20/2024, working my way back and this one was one of the best interviews he has ever conducted.
Oh my goodall I stumbled upon two people sharing some of the most interesting stories and concepts about humanity and primates and life as a whole. I thoroughly enjoyed this and can't wait to read those books and watch more videos of these folks. Thank you!!!!
It seemed that they wanted to keep going! I remember a year or so ago, Dr. Wrangham mentioned Dr. Peterson in the context of "the patriarchy" to explain that there no doubt was one. I now see that they both have a great deal in common, especially to highlight the positive elements of an organized society while acknowledging the darkness of an organized group of males keeping the peace. I can't wait for another discussion.
Enlightening and thought provoking discussions. Now I have a yardstick to measure human societies from its beginning. Thanks for the great effort and keep up the good work. From Hker worldwide
On the subject of endlessly staring at fire, at sea, you will find that seafarers stare unceasingly at the sea. Seems to have the same calming effect as staring at fire.
This guy is so interesting. We all know Jordan researches the folks he interviews , but the good ape doctor is constantly delighted that my man knows so much. Wonderful interview.
I think it would make a strong argument that people who lived in volcanic regions where there was 'hot rocks' around. In the Canaries they dig out a hallow in the earth to access the natural heat and make makeshift ovens to cook food. This alongside the added advantage of fertile soil in volcanic areas to grow crops could have made it easy for mankind to find out the advantages gained by cooking both meat and vegetables. The difficult bit was how to make hot rocks in regions where there was no natural fire sources.
Fascinating conversation and Mr Wragham's book The Goodness Paradox is a brilliant piece of work..! Maybe someone already answered already to Jordan's question about this Japanese film of which he forgot the name, as this episode was already already released in September 2021, but for them who just saw this now, like me: it was certainly the Japanese film "the Balad of Narayama". A must-see-movie for those who are interested in anthropology and questions on human behaviour.
Yeah, but he's gotten so bitter and mean since his medical emergency. I can't really blame him for it since he's been through a lot, but he's different now. It's hard to see him the same way. Whereas before I just saw him as someone whose primary mission in life was to help people help themselves, now it definitely seems like politics have taken precedence over his self-help material. Pretty sad, actually.
Excellent interview. I learned quite a bit. The last part about the differences in aggression related to brain size, and the domestication of humans relating to lack of alphas, was especially enlightening.
An amazing book about Aggression in animal behavior and by extension sheds incite into human aggression is a book by Konrad Lorenz called, “On Agression”. It’s one of my favorite books ever. Just thought I would suggest it
In a moderately tangential vein, given which of aggression or affiliation requires more cultural fostering, one should note that the implementations of Rousseau-esque ideologies have resulted in mass-murder with far greater frequency and severity than implementations of Hobbes' ideologies. I suspect this might have to do with the fact that acts of violence often have catastrophic and terminal consequences, while acts of kindness need to become habitual, if they are not to be undone by relatively few acts of violence. Even if both impulses are equally innate in us, as a numbers game, it requires few acts of violence to ruin a society that otherwise frequently manifests kindness, and this requires us to pay special attention to our aggressive impulses when we are talking about how our societies are formed. Utopian schemes based on Rousseau, Marx, et al. set up unrealistic expectations and set us up for bitter disappointments that trigger aggressive, "Off with their heads!" impulses. It only takes one act of violence to kill someone and undo a life of thousands of kind acts, so kindness isn't something to be taken for granted.
@@pitpalac Maybe the external influence in this " domestication" (which is a weird way of expressing it I agree) is human population size mixed with a complete change in human life style. It wasn't that long ago we lived as hunter gathers, sometimes not seeing other humans for months at a time. That tribal nature in humans came from this time. Now suddenly we live in cities of millions, and this tribal nature is incompatible for this environment. Humanity it seems is under going some sort of transformation to something that is more suitable to a densely populated species, and we are in the early turbulent stage of the transformation. Things will probably be completely unrecognizable from our point of view in a few generations. I'm no expert but it seems that way to me.
@@amonnoma4810 consider how territorial invasions must have domesticated us as well, probably most aggressive males would mobilize to fight an invading army/group. I wonder if male populations twenty thousand years ago were substantially more aggressive or uncooperative.
Thank you Dr. Peterson. It is always a pleasure to learn with some brilliant humans like you and Dr. Richard Wrangham. The point I like it most was the assessment made about Rousseau vs Hobbes point of views. People should start to assume a neutral point of view as a legit one. And it is worth for many themes regarding human behavior and culture. This is not to be implied that we should turn opposite points of view into unlegit.
Wow! 😲 That was a hell of interesting talk! I feel so much smarter after that! 🤓 How many books and articles/papers this two read to have almost 2 hours of joyful, focused and very intellectual conversation? And... C'mon! They translate everything for that a regular layman like me could understand something of that talk... And FOR FREE 💰💰💰 Thanks JP!
Dr. Peterson, I love ur prep work. No matter who u r talking to, it seems u know the perfect comment or question to keep the conversation flowing. Keep it up. We love u.
Thoroughly enjoyed this gentleman. Many years ago I read a fascinating book, "Time, Sex and Power". Not since listening to your brilliant discussion have I encountered such compelling explanations of human evolution as I had read in that book.
Hi Jordan. Fascinating interview, thank you. I want to add a small observation on the norm of hospitality to strangers. It is certainly not limited to the cultural Abrahamic tradition. In old Norse mythology, for instance, the chief god, Odin, insisted on such. He would even travel in disguise among people, punish those we did not show hospitality and reward those who did.
I made sure I watched with as much attention as I can muster. When my attention did not hold as long then I made sure to go back and watch it over again. It helps my understanding and that is a such help I appreciate so much. Thank you for sharing your work
Both Demonic Males and Catching Fire are fascinating, and completely capable of increasing one's understanding of why and how we are what we are. Great reads with surprising--and well documented--facts. Two of my favorite non-fiction books and highly recommended! (I look forward to the third!)
A good book to read would be The Son’s of Cain: A History of Serial Killers. The book isn’t a chronological events but also an examination of the human mind in killings. It also talks about human evolution these two talk in this podcast
The depth of the exchange that takes place within a mere 90 minutes is enough to create a state of "agglutination" of one's desire to stay and stay and stay in the circle of the conversation and actually remain engrossed in it in the aftermath of its ending. I guess this wondrously addictive approach to listening and pondering is what learning is all about. Oh, that I were young again to take advantage of this discovery. Thank you Jordan and Richard for creating these moments of wonder and beauty.
I recall the reduction in brain size as measured by volume is not indicative of any loss of cognition or intelligence. Rather, what was lost in volume was made up for by greater surface area, specifically the increased ridge formations in the brain that enhanced total surface area. Also, it would seem a socialization of children against reactive aggression would be necessary for a species with inherent aggression but reliant on cooperative behavior (or at least non-maladaptive socializing).
I harbour a theory about cooperative behaviour requiring less cognitive grunt. Neanderthals (larger brain capacity) being more solitary and less socially sophisticated due to lower population density. Each individual would have to be more robust/self reliant physically AND mentally. Sapiens sapiens survived using debate, specialisms and pooled knowledge to overcome problems. As an introvert, this fits my perception of society more accurately. I tend to view raving extroverts as not quite as smart and as more reliant on allies than on self reliance!
@@AndyJarman So, more Neanderthal in you, or strong & silent Hollywood hero? Survival, co-operation etc amongst animals as smart, deceptive & dangerous as humans is very hard work ..
♥It is a shame that over four years I found only 17 podcasters who are focused on the truth. Another super-interesting podcast Jordan. You bring on more informative guests, telling the truth, than any other. Each podcast makes me ever-more appreciative. I have learned a lot from you these past four years as I watch every podcast at least once and most multiple times. Your messages have changed my life for the better. Jordan, are asolutely a national treasure. This latest attack on you by your corrupt so-called piers is actually a beautiful thing because the more these idiots attack you the more popular you get. They really are struck-on-stuped but It's like free-advertising for you. As any farmer would say - Keep the chin up. LOL Byron Starr, Engineer, Truth-seeker. aka Pop* Vancouver BC
evolution is truth,hmmm not so sure, most don't belief in it,witch isn't a determinant factor in whats true,but evolution being true is outright wrong, i would consider it more a belief of theory
@@humility-righteous-giving it absolutely is true. Trey the Explainer made a video called “rapid evolution”. It cover examples of evolution and I recommend it. How do you think different dog breeds are made? We pick specific traits that we want. Over generations the breeds differ more and more. Nature favors some traits Over others. In the wild you can say nature picks specific traits, not literally, but those traits are passed down to the offspring.
@@HJimenez261so why don’t ALL people have the very same melanin that these VERY APES have and some do? I hope you’re not one of the people who actually believe that we are all the same.… Because that is the biggest misnomer in history. You want truth? NOT A SINGLE RACE SHARES ANOTHERS ORIGINS.. take a deep dive into ancient Armenians, Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal. Neanderthal looked like apes and look like one race of men. They had dark skin. Cro-Magnon man has never changed,we only gotten weaker as the time goes on and dna has PROVED this beyond a shadow of a doubt.. just like no one will tell you that the Vikings and the original Hebrew are the same man..… The language is the same the origins is the same and the customs are the same. And I don’t mean the people in Israel now. They stole the birthright. Unless you study a cult you would understand this part but that’s OK. When Darwin stuck his finger over his mouth and winked one eye,this is what he was saying. Our opinions of this is subjective but the facts aren’t.
@@thatsaltylife9855 animal- a living organism that feeds on organic matter, typically having specialized sense organs and nervous system and able to respond rapidly to stimuli. We are descendants of apes. We are related to chimpanzees. By definition we are animals but if you’re are talking about will power and self control, look around the world. Money, sex, power are coveted by people, I’m not saying everyone but the lack of willpower and self control runs rampant in humanity. Plus there are studies done that show corvids and apes that delay self gratification There is a book called “the great ape project” and I really recommend it to see how close we act to apes. Their intelligence and ability to communicate isn’t far off from a six year old.
My degree and interest in biology aid in my ability to digest and appreciate this kind of discussion where inquiry and discussion can be interesting to digest in terms of the real world.
@@BenState No shit? I wouldn’t know anything about that! I just majored in business with a minor in marketing. You must be an Astro physicist with a minor in interpretive dance. I guess you told me, shitbird.
I loved how the explaination of cooking making homo sapiens from an ape into human as we know it, came from effectively pre-digesting the food to make it more bio-available, softer to eat, changing its taste and texture, requiring less effort to both chew, and digest, makes so much sense. I would suggest that cooking removing some of the known dangerous bacteria and parasites might also be something that isn't a small consideration either, from a survival aspect. An aspect of life in Australia in the late 18th, 19th, then 20th century was that every town and suburb had nearly a pub on each main corner, and tea and coffee houses were the next most common business enterprise, then general stores. This was because as a temperate to hot climate, we have a lot more bacteria in our stream and river water, than in colder climates, such as Europe. Therefore drinking beer, where fermentation killed the nasty water bugs, or boiled water, was a whole lot safer than drinking natural, untreated ground water! One of the big out takes from the human Genome project was that racial groups as we know them are a physical adaptation to environment and diet. As we have been using fire for two million years - perhaps how we cook and what we cook, as it changes how our bodies absorb and process our food, may have also had a part in that process....
Another major factor in humanity's ability to develop is the fact that one of the most important mutations that changed humanity into humanity was the mutation that decreased our jaw strength. The lack of the extra muscle and Bone structure needed to support a stronger jaw is what allows our brain to be so large. There is likely a direct link between cooking our food and being able to survive with a weaker jaw and the larger brain, as well as the tool use needed to make use of both.
@@hariman7727 absolutely not true. Even in Darwin's time. There's a difference between genetic and physiological changes. You work out, your muscles get bigger. You have to chew harder, your jaw and surrounding muscles get bigger. Darwin in descent of man, said that smaller jaws in western world was caused by processed foods, while 3rd world people had to chew more. 3rd world people had no problem with wisdom teeth coming in, as larger jaws, while white people on refined diet adapted by having problems. yay of evolution that we are less fit. They also had no appendix problems either, as they ate a lot of fiber. XD
Humans developed fermented drinks as safer everywhere, whether beer in Egypt or wine in other parts. This was probably a side effect of combing waste water with drinking water. Wells didnt have this problem for the most part. You have a very small aspect on food preservation being fire. That's an immediate thing. Dehydration, salting, fermentation, artificial cold (root cellars) are MUCH bigger impacts on long term storage of food.
@@cobramcjingleballs ... This is documented history of humanity that I'm speaking about, where one of the key mutations that even allowed us to have a brain big enough to be as intelligent as we are now is the mutation that decreased jaw strength and musculature and bone structure that got in the way of having a larger brain.
Great interview! This is something I have been interested in since reading The Naked Ape, by Desmond Morris in the early 70's. While it was published in 67, I wasn't old enough to check it out for awhile.
Robert Ardrey wrote a trilogy of books on human evolution. In addition to _African Genesis_ and _The Territorial Imperative_ , he also wrote _The Social Contract._ . Ardrey was an excellent writer and his books are still well worth reading even with the passage of a half century.
@@Dan-mm1yl - You mean coming across a carcass and eating rotten uncooked meat? But we don't have the necessary carnivore's digestive system for that. We need cooking for that. For cooking we need intelligence to plan, create & control fire. But you don't get a large brain & intelligence without the high numbers of calories such a brain needs from cooking. The whole theory is flawed.
I'm so excited to see this interview! Been following both these guys for a while. JP keeps bringing in the most intriguing guests. I wonder how he's choosing them.
In the discussion at the end of the video, I couldn't help but make a connection between what you guys were talking about, and, the sopranos. Throughout the show Tony is described as an "alpha male" on separate occasions by different people. He is large, aggressive, almost gorilla built and he is the leader of a tribe (La cosa nostra). And, like the doctor was explaining, he too is plotted against and killed. Tony was the epitome of an alpha male, and nobody was going to stand around for it, although he was a good leader, his ego and aggression made him a target as well.
Jordan, you are the only person, on TH-cam and every other social media platform, that I find myself preparing to listen to. What I mean is that all the talking heads are so easy to listen to and to understand that usually what they say goes in one ear and out the other. But when I listen to you speak, I need to be in a comfortable and quiet setting so that I can listen to every word you say. And the reason is because what you are saying is so profound and so necessary that I want to learn as much as I can. Often times I rewatch the same talks so that in case I didn’t fully understand something you said, I can digest it properly. Thanks for what you do, sir. I, like many other people in the world, appreciate what you are doing. I see what you are doing and I applaud you. I wish you and your family the very best, sir.
Me too, lol
Me three
You hopefully put on a suit in order to properly listen to Dr Peterson.
1% difference aye? Eyes different, brains are FAR DIFFERENT, every single appendage is different in stature, they have different bone structures than we do, they're designed for slightly different diets than us, we can't eat tree bark! You have to be insane to claim there is a 1% genetic difference, yet a 99% intellectual difference. That's a laugh.
Their hair develops differently than ours, their pigmentation is different than ours, skin is different than ours [even if it's the same material genetics determine each and every factor.] I'd seriously like to know, who has verified this 1% theory and when was it last updated. 💯🤡😅
Well said
Jordan, you are the one person I enjoy and look forward to hearing. As a homeschooling mom, I get very little time to myself. I usually listen to you while I’m cooking dinner (if my kids aren’t helping me and my husband isn’t telling me about his day at work!) I truly look forward to spending my “me time” listening to your interviews. I appreciate you and the people you interview! Please don’t ever stop! Prayers to you and your family to always be strong in the tough times you face speaking truth and seeking truth!
I listen to his interviews while out walking or hiking. Great company!
Jordan, I like that after your recovery your pace has slowed just slightly. It's a positive not a negative. It was so hard to keep up 100% with your thoughts before, now you are a little more relaxed and tend to take your time. Resulting in more effective communication in the first pass. What a great interview. Riveting for an hour and 45min. Amazing.
Love you, Brother.
fro what ?
@@Q_QQ_Q drug addiction
This is actually a video shot when he was barely healthy
Agreed
Helps to have caught up some when he took a break .
Aside from the stunning things I learned about the topic, JP has once again astounded me with how he approaches a topic and how he comes to his positions. It’s like the world is one big magic show & I’m expected to sit in the audience, accept at face value the tricks I see on the stage, and not question things. JP takes me backstage, shows me the props and how they work, then backs it up by pointing out exactly how the “magician” uses those props to perform the trick. I can see why so many consider him a danger- they don’t want their tricks revealed. Bless you Jordan, the world needs you!
Kinda answers the question about what happened to the Neanderthal population of Europe eh???
Wrangham was great but Peterson was a pain in the ass. An interviewer who interrupted and talked too much making his own speeches.
@@simian_essence Disagree. Despite being 14 years younger, Peterson as a philosopher operates in large intellectual frames, by which he absorbs provided by Wrangham's field findings and facts.
@@robertcarter8600 I need some basic grammatical coherence and logic from you before I can respond adequately.
@@simian_essence My disagreement doesn't need your approval or excuse, grumpy pal, so don't waste your breath.
While reminiscing about his early career, Dr. Wrangham often says “yeah, those were the Goodall days!”
My, that was just Goodall-ful
I like how he says, " yeah we used to rap about that,"
It’s the cheap puns that always get me👍
Underrated comment right here. 🤣
And he still tries to find his name in the scientific journals of Jane
I am extremely pleased with the interviewer in this video. He asks exactly the question I would have liked to ask the expert and he is extremely well prepared.
Thats Jordan Peterson,,, hes a true intellectual treasure on this world
Please, have Dr. Thomas Sowell on the podcast. It would be amazing
💖🔥👏
YES PLEASE!!!
I thought he was dead.
Yes please!
Yes please!
Great episode Jordan! The quality of your interview subjects is second to none! I've been listening to you and reading your books for over 5 years now and you never ever disappoint. Please keep up the wonderful work, you will only grow in popularity exponentially and the critics don't matter because they don't even listen to what you actually say. We love you buddy.
Edit: this was an amazing podcast. who knew such a perfect combo would be a clinical psychologist genius and a geniuis level primatologist. what a damn pleasure we have being able to hear this conversation. I love these longform talks 😁
@@CalebBerman , if God loves us then there would be no disease or sickness or all this natural disasters, although most of the disease has been eliminated or are being cured or treated, only by those people who went ahead without the concept of believing that God will save us and worked hard by questioning the mystery surroundings us, if not, we humans would never be in the place we are right now.
@@CalebBerman , If you had understood the podcast interlocution then you would think twice before any claim of sin.
Human Evolution - we are a unique species, with many similarities to Chimpanzees, but distinctly different, as Michelangelo so brilliantly captured in his Creation of Adam.
@@warrenbuffett920
You are very disillusioned.
Humanism is based on a bias that human reasoning is a valid tool to understand existence, which according to honest scientists, says the world should not exist from our philosophy of science.
Beware of godless indoctrination.
OMG! Is his name "Doctor Orangutan"??? Soo funny that he is expert on monkeys. 🤣
Ah I love how Dr. Peterson is always so genuinely welcoming towards his podguests! One can really tell that they feel truly appreciated. Always puts a natural smile on my face when they wrap up :)
Haha yeah JP's podcast endings are always so incredibly polite and warm :)
What a fascinating chat. Thanks Dr. Peterson to give us the chance to learn so much about various disciplines and subjects.
If you haven't I really recommend his audio book catching fire it's very fascinating
When you caught them stealing by using satan as bait and they came to the conclusion that Jesus is a much bigger threat😆
The Japanese film described at 1:37:00 is 'The Ballad of Narayama' (1983) by Shōhei Imamura.
Thank you
Aaaayyyy was hoping someone would know the name of the mentioned film, thanks 🙏
Another japanese film that resonate the narrative described is "Seven Samurai"
Correct. Do also check out the 1958 original version by Keisuke Kinoshita
Thx alot, it's not really related but Japanese movies are always the weirdest ones, check out Takashi Miike's work.
I just finished Prof. Richard Wrangham’s “The Goodness Paradox”. It’s a wonderfully illuminating book that puts into perspective the human condition as understood through the lens of evolution. Thank you, again, Prof. Peterson for interviewing another brilliant guest and helping me add to my growing catalogue of books!
This discussion didn't disappoint.....the time flew by. I'd really love to hear more.
Report my account because people are pretending to be me and posting on my behalf.
Former Associate Prof. here in Japan (undergrad biology UNC-W, grad school - Education Temple University Japan) watching this great show. I am a big fan of primatologist Frans de Waal too - who posits the roots of human morality as in the empathy and reciprocity of some social animals. I put those two variables at different levels of abstraction, and have redefined human morality for myself as simply 'empathy driven behavior'. Rule driven behavior (that of customs, traditions, laws, algorithms , etc.) is a necessary neural re-routing of direct empathy when we exceed Dunbar's number. I was intrigued by the conversation enough to have bought the Kindle version of Wrangham's first book, and suspect that in-group, out-group violence is a legitimate counter argument to parallel economies at the community level proposed to counter to the recent rise in concentrations of political/economic power at the expense of individual rights. I am literate enough in history to be aware of Unit 731 and Howard Zinn ... and Dunbar's number alone can not account for the human-created horror.
By the way, the 1980's Japanese movie ... 'The Ballad of Narayama', where people who reach the age of 70 are taken to the mountain top to die. This year, 2022 at the Cannes Film Festival, Japanese director Chie Hayakawa is revisiting the theme of encouraged suicide of the elderly, but at the age of 75. Though I've lived here in Japan for the last 40 years, I'll be 67 this September. That gives me eight more at the most. ;-)
I don't think empathy is the primary driver of morality. I think the primary driver is the need to control free riders of various kinds, individuals who seek to benefit themselves at the expense of other group members.
@@michaels4255 Hi Michaels. Thanks for an alternative idea, and for the implicit acknowledgement that this topic is important in these times of 'wokeness'. Frans de Waal puts reciprocity on an equal footing with empathy, so he might agree with you.
But in thinking about it, I am wondering about two things ...
1) - this might involve more complex thinking such as first identifying, then comparing and contrasting, then calculating in comparison with others in the group, then considering strategies for control, and ...
2) - whereas mirror neurons might account from immediate empathy, I'm wondering what morphological feature might be most highly correlated with the above functions.
Cheers from Japan!
steve
Much appreciated and we need more of these kind of talks. Brings understanding and for me calm in these times of increased tension in the world.
A Finnish Michael Jackson impersonator I presume? :)
@@colby3547 Swedish 😉
Amen.
One of the best interviews I’ve listened to on this podcast so far.I thought I knew something about chimpanzees but I realize that I really didn’t know much at all. I love to watch chimpanzees at the zoo. Now that I have more knowledge my overall experience will be deeper and more rewarding.
Thank you
It's inspiring that we have this kind of quality content on the internet for free.
Not free. The price is that they sell you to their advertisers. No such thing as a free lunch.
advertising isnt free
@@nastybastardatlivead block fam 💀
From the looks of it the 1% difference is that apes dont go bald like him
Just try to find ANYTHING anymore on TV of this caliber. "Nature" shows and history shows used to do this kind of intellectual work in the 80s. I have the old shows on VHS to prove it.
This was an exceedingly fascinating talk/interview! I think I developed another synapse extension or two.
I look forward to hearing from this man again and will definitely read the books.
Dr. Peterson, your interview skills have become well-defined and it's a joy to tune in to these podcasts. Thank you.
Absolutely agree to every thing you said 👍🏻 including the synapse thing 😊
👍😊
I also had to banish a few synapses for being wrong.
conversations like this one re-emphasizes why the JBP podcast is the no.1 educational podcast in the World. Can't wait to hear more in the future with Frans de Waal!
👌👍
Jordan, you look so much better. Keep doing whatever you've been doing. It is making a visible difference.
This was from long time ago...he's not looking so great right now for some reason. Praying he gets help.
@@333-d9c wtf
@@wwcreations1 This was September. So he was tanned after summer. Now it is the start of may so he’s pale after winter. Crazy isn’t it.
@@TheDominionOfElites the comment you’re referring to is a scammer posing as Dr. Peterson. I reported the comment and I suggest everyone else does.
This is the very first time that I see anybody outsmarting Jordan in so many occasions. Typically, Jordan always is very close to the right track, but in this opportunity Mr. Wrangham widely (not wildly) controverted some of his opinions. Great from Jordan to have listened and learned from the expert, which is admirable given him being a professor, a fkn good one, so knowledgeable on many things, capable of leaving his pride on the side and get ready to learn from an expert. This was fantastic from both of them. Thank you!
The movie Jordan discusses @1:36:00 is called 'The Ballad of Narayama' . He is talking about the 1983 version. It was also filmed in 1958.
Thank You!!
Dr. Peterson your interviews never cease to enrich my day! Thank you for providing such thoughtful conversations.
Superb conversation; articulate, rich in detail and captivating. Thanks both of you.
I remember reading about Jane Goodall, watching television documentaries about her and her work, reading articles she'd written, and attending one of her lectures. She definitely knew that chimp warfare would be explosive news, she was accused of making it up, and the skepticism and disbelief didn't really die out until other researchers documented the same behavior. Until others found the same behavior, there was also a lot of conjecture that the troop she was observing were somehow aberrant, unique; even that her watching them had somehow disturbed the troop, caused them such anxiety, etc., that she was causing the violence.
The mental gymnastics people do to avoid imagining the implications of such observations.
@@Ohitswilly I think they imagined them just fine. It was not wanting to accept the implications as reality that led to the unethical attacks on Goodall's character. A certain level of professional skepticism until more data about other troops came in was appropriate, but the closed-minded nastiness wasn't. People/researchers/scientists still do the same thing, smearing and "deplatforming" without evidence those whom they disagree with.
Think it was David Attenborough crew who captured footage of a planned and executed murder..and the hunting and eating alive of monkeys..Give me a Gorrilla or orangutan anyday, these things are too much like us ..sadly
@@LynxSouth
Nopoo
@@LynxSouth this sound like scholars who claim an arceologist faked/ misinterpreted his findings in Minoans temple as human sacrifice,when not only it's common things in the area and age,but also get recorded in myth where Athens have to send children of Noble as offering,a pattern that echo the bibilical record of sacrificing sons as both would hold role of heir
The 1974 - 1978 Gombe war. They developed warfare with some characteristics almost identical to how humans would conduct strategy and battle. It was what Jane Goodall was shocked by to learn about their aggressive, warlike behavior.
The best conversation I have EVER listened to and the best 1 hour 45 minutes when I've learned so much about human instinct, eating habits, evolution....
Try University. Its like this every day.
You believe in evolution correct? Can u explain to my evolving brain, how we came from one ancestor when we have 20 different amino acids? Explain that idea of one common ancestor.
DNA alone doesn't make life. You have to have so much more that gives life. Ex protein, cell membranes, and all depend on each other. Natural selection cant happen without life I need someone to explain to me how this damn bacteria from outer space (big bang) came to earth and turned into a fish and later damn monkey after millions of year's of adaptation and evolution.
Everything depends on plants grabbing sunlight and storing that energy in sugar molecules. And if that didn’t exist nothing would exist can u explain why we need everything to work together. Do u think it's just random acts or it was more of a creator /designer? Well I believe in a creator 👌🏿👀 just look at our cells. The trillions of cells in our body that is smarter than any computer programmer chip. High intelligence u think these things are ransom of a more power designer. 🙏🏿 God bless all evolutionists so far the idea of a creator still stands.
@@BenState wonder how many of these themes would be welcome in a woke environment…
@@rodericfuerst Well, it's clear that women doing the cooking freed men up to do all kinds of things. That's one thing that the woke environment would point out.
Define ‘woke’ .
Loved the conversation ... when he said , do you have 1 hour and half ?
I was so happy, unfortunately was not the day but it brought me joy to know that he enjoyed to share his knowledge in this conversation and he was ready to go even longer. Thank you for the both of you.
1:18:18 One of the things interesting to note about most Native American Tribes, no matter what name they were known as to others, their own name for their tribe was normally translated as _The People,_ or _The Human Beings,_ ALL Other tribes were _Others._
Long time fan of you Jordan, the specific pair of the two of you here is something I could watch endlessly.
As a former zoologist/ecologist and now science teacher (and psychology hobbyist), this discussion on primate behaviour was extremely interesting and though provoking, what a match up!
"though" or thought?...Seems to work either way.
want thought provoking? TH-cam: Dr. Stephen C Meyer. Enjoy
Its okey, its for teachers too!
As none of those things, it was very good.
This wasn’t a match up it was a interview
The elephant story in the beginning made me laugh, even moreso when Jordan said it sounded like it would be hard to get that study approved nowadays. 🤣
I was expecting him to say how his friend who was not paying enough attention got crushed by the heavy falling elephant 😄
I'd love to have them have another conversation, now that the Russian Ukrainian war has started. Their opinions, and types of solutions? Xxx Susan 👵🙏🏼
Fascinating discussion. Interesting the direction of that IRB comment went only along safety to humans. Little concern for shooting an experimental drug into the elephant or the possible injury caused but pushing them over. Just saying...
@@wadehathawaymusic he did express a concern for that
Claiming that Bandera worshippers in Ukraine are Nazis is bannable.
Such a delightful and civil conversation between two accomplished humans. This it too good. Thank you JBP for sharing this!
It's beautiful to find such an eloquent dialogue between two brilliant minds and see how knowledge grows with shared experience. Nutrition for the spirit.
Try University. Its like this every day.
I absolutely loved this. And I really love seeing the guests face light up when Jordan shows real interest in their field of study, like knowing how they used to study genetic differences by literally pulling DNA apart. Must be such a relief for the guest knowing they aren't having to start from the ground up
@@riohenry6382 if honesty is relevant, which I don’t think it is when swapping thoughts and ideas personally. In fact you could argue that keeping everyone anonymous benefits discussion
@@riohenry6382 Nothing he said was less honest, because he didn't referenced his identity with his birth name. Frankly to me your ideology seems to revolve more around fascism than honesty. At least you just come across as ignorant and arrogant.
@@riohenry6382 stupid questions and bad puns. What a clown. Calling me uptight for using a Nickname, I see 😂 Good to know that Rio Henry is a paranoid facist. Oh wait no it isnt. IT is useless information.
@@riohenry6382 dude you are not making any sense. If you are to stupid to get my point thats on you. And the fact that you feel like I am calling you names is, because my opinion of you is pretty low.
@@TheHulksMistress keeping everyone anonymous reduces stress and allows people to ask questions they feel like they could be ridiculed for, as long as the chat is between reasonable people I find it hard to see a downside that couldn't be solved by separate non-anonymous chats
That was a brilliant conversation! One of the best on the podcast as far as I'm concerned. Can we have more of those, please? I will definitely read his books, I'm not a biologist, but the topic is fascinating.
Fully agree. Animal behavior is incredibly intriguing story in reference to our own proclivities.
Fully agree but I find it astonishing how JP closed the discussion when an anthropologic explanation of males dominance over woman and abuse of their position of power to dictate the moral code, was given. I was expecting some kind of comment yet he just closed the discussion. Hmmm interesting !
Yes you can hear more by clicking on the subscribe icon, and ringing the bell and selecting all.
@@Fatrotry Oh yeah, you caught him. They talked for 90 minutes and JP covered all the planned topics. What's wrong with you feminists?
@@Fatrotry If you listen to Dr Wrangham on Lex Fridman podcast he seems to have an outdated view that women aren't malicious and getting rid of men would lead to Shangri-La...most psychology has proven psychopathy is nearly as prevalent in women than men it just manifests differently due to culture and how little we understand the dark side of man and woman.
The Japanese movie Jordan Peterson mentioned was "The Ballad of Narayama" and it really is hard-hitting. It's notable that - in modern society at least - communication is considered more the realm of women, who in a way "weave the fabric if society" through their interactions. I think the possible (albeit less visible) role of the females of the species in this far-reaching chang of the social structure of our species should not be entirely overlooked - as it has been by the esteemed professor(s).
Just been going through the comments hoping to find the name of this film so thank you ! 😊
Well said.
Well the opening statement was about differences between human/chimps on the one side and every other species on the other. It was not to diminish female contributions to anything! (But female cooperative groups are the rule in the animal kingdom - male groups are the exception!)
Women tend to engage in communication more frequently, and tend to be more familiar with it, while men have tended to be the innovators of the means of communication. Looking at the discovery/invention of logic, developments in mathematics (an abstract system of symbolic representation and communication), innovations in genres of literature and in the sciences (which bring new concepts into language, the overwhelming majority of new creations that expand the domain of what can be talked about accurately and effectively, and which have stood the test of the survival of the fittest, and have proved of value to subsequent generations, have been accomplished by men.
-- At least one woman in the field of linguistics has noted that much of women's talk is "chatter." One cannot deny that there have been many women who have made huge contributions to poetry, prose, logic, mathematics, and science, but when one gets past the feminizing bias of recent centuries, a more even-handed analysis of the creative-destruction processes involved in EFFECTIVE innovation will show that their being boosted by testosterone-fueled impulses has been demonstrated throughout history.
@@grizzlygrizzle Exactly
What a wonderful interview. I've always enjoyed anthropology and the study of social systems. I truly enjoy your interviews mostly because you're not only highly intelligent but know a great deal about the subjects talked about. Thank you again.
I used to live in Odessa...
Jordan exploring topics on evolution is one of my favourite intellectual rabbit holes I love to dive into.
Yea.I wish he wouldn’t just assume it apriori every time, that would be interesting and I think hueristically helpful
Kent HOVIND and John Lennox have good stuff on the evolution religion
Yes, it almost Peterson at his best as it tends to keep him away from obsessive references to Biblical stories. He seems to give himself more freedom for creative thinking in such interviews and is less of a Christian zealot.
@@larrylaye9276 Unfortunately, Lennox is an elderly and unproductive liar for the baby jesus, whilst Hovind is merely a shyster, therefore both can be dismissed as irrelevant to this particular conversation.
@@E.6-f9f I like Jesus too :).
Wow. Fantastic conversation! I feel you guys were just getting to some really interesting topics and speculative evolutionary biology concepts from this discussion. I cannot wait to hear you two continue this in the future.
Absolutely fascinating conversation! Thank you for including us in such an interesting topic.
Absolutely fascinating. I wish it had been twice as long. Thank you, gentlemen. Well done.
I like the fact that Jordan asked Richard about his period spend in Africa when he was 17. It probably would have just been overlooked by other interviewers but it showed so much about Richard as a young man - very revealing about his development. Loved about the tail pulling on the elephant !
It helped me understand when he was explaining, bonding via cooking.
This was a fantastic listen, thank you both.
We owe so much to these people who dedicate years of their life in pursuit of very niche but crucial information in the discovery of our roots.
our "roots" are un unkowable
Knowable*
Also just say unknown if you're going to attempt to sound smart and mysterious lol
@@joebowl8315 was going to say the same thing.. but it was a moronic comment so thought id just ignore him.
Self domestication brought about by male cooperation through communication.
How much time is required in our food preparation and how our saving that time has contributed our development.
Two great ideas I had never considered before. Great content.
Yes, Dion: Saving time with cooked food, let me to thinking of saved time with Slaves. I then went on to thinking how food preparation usually by women has changed in suburban society and freed women to enter what had been the world of men. Just some casual thoughts needing deeper thought - and time!
Highly instructive. Evocative, thought provoking, especially if you are a historian. Absolute must.
Hi Richard, I purchased two of your books based on this interview. Thanks to you and Jordan for doing this enlightening interview.
Very enlightening conversation. This kind conversations help curious generalists like myself to understand evolution of human values over time without having to read lengthy multiple books. Thanks to both Dr Peterson and the professor Wrangham for brining it to us.
Very interesting and I can see how it relates to our primordial instincts as humans... however, we humans are not apes..... we might physically be much weaker, but what made us humans top of the food chain is the combination of brain power and tool making to do the fighting for us. A pack of lions can have all the muscles and physical strength in the world but it won't last 5 seconds against someone with an AK47 that just shoots it to bits, the lions will just be slaughtered like sheep; cannon fodder; which our cousins in the animal kingdom lack... which is why I think what the west does is extremely stupid with the strength of atom bombs we have today... like what is the US gonna do... watch out over the waste lands of their entire cities turned to dust by Russia's nukes and say 'I know it looks bad, but you should see the other guy.'.... Like the politicians of today have NO CLUE what the atom bomb did for horrors to Hiroshima and Nagasaki; and those are child's play toys compared to today's hydrogen bombs.... on top of that, the west can certainly start a war, but I'm pretty certain they can't win a war; particularly as Russia, China and the Middle East join forces as the west has been pushing for, for the last 2 decades.
A true jewel...
Such a good interview! Your style puts me at ease listening, and seems to have a profound affect on your interactions with Dr. Wrangman. Amazing content Dr. Peterson, unbelievably sincere. Thank you.
I’ve been binge watching/listening to all of JBP podcasts…starting with the most recent as of 5/20/2024, working my way back and this one was one of the best interviews he has ever conducted.
Oh my goodall I stumbled upon two people sharing some of the most interesting stories and concepts about humanity and primates and life as a whole. I thoroughly enjoyed this and can't wait to read those books and watch more videos of these folks. Thank you!!!!
Sooo very interesting 🤔 thought provoking
It seemed that they wanted to keep going! I remember a year or so ago, Dr. Wrangham mentioned Dr. Peterson in the context of "the patriarchy" to explain that there no doubt was one. I now see that they both have a great deal in common, especially to highlight the positive elements of an organized society while acknowledging the darkness of an organized group of males keeping the peace. I can't wait for another discussion.
There are also females 'keeping the peace' in our human society, it's not just males.
@@vizuzWhoosh!
Enlightening and thought provoking discussions. Now I have a yardstick to measure human societies from its beginning.
Thanks for the great effort and keep up the good work.
From Hker worldwide
HK here bro!
On the subject of endlessly staring at fire, at sea, you will find that seafarers stare unceasingly at the sea. Seems to have the same calming effect as staring at fire.
Thank you for this conversation! So interesting
Not only do we control ours and our kid's aggression, but we control other animal's aggression too. (Currently training a puppy 🙃)
A fascinating interview. I laughed about the “Elephant Tipping” . Have been fascinated by the similarities & differences between us & other primates.
This guy is so interesting. We all know Jordan researches the folks he interviews , but the good ape doctor is constantly delighted that my man knows so much. Wonderful interview.
I think it would make a strong argument that people who lived in volcanic regions where there was 'hot rocks' around. In the Canaries they dig out a hallow in the earth to access the natural heat and make makeshift ovens to cook food. This alongside the added advantage of fertile soil in volcanic areas to grow crops could have made it easy for mankind to find out the advantages gained by cooking both meat and vegetables. The difficult bit was how to make hot rocks in regions where there was no natural fire sources.
What an amazing, intriguing, and informative discussion! Thank you both.
Fascinating conversation and Mr Wragham's book The Goodness Paradox is a brilliant piece of work..! Maybe someone already answered already to Jordan's question about this Japanese film of which he forgot the name, as this episode was already already released in September 2021, but for them who just saw this now, like me: it was certainly the Japanese film "the Balad of Narayama". A must-see-movie for those who are interested in anthropology and questions on human behaviour.
Ty - I've been scrolling thru the countless I ❤JP comments in hopes that someone commented on the Japanese movie. Ty
Thank you for the movie name
Listening to Jordan is always emotional for me, his intellect and perceptions leave me in awe.
What an amazing mind to look up to, and learn from.
💚
Yeah, but he's gotten so bitter and mean since his medical emergency. I can't really blame him for it since he's been through a lot, but he's different now. It's hard to see him the same way.
Whereas before I just saw him as someone whose primary mission in life was to help people help themselves, now it definitely seems like politics have taken precedence over his self-help material.
Pretty sad, actually.
Emotion and Intellect don't go together!
Enjoy your misery o thou intelligent being!
It's now one of my life goals to have made a statement to which a proper British gentleman responded "very good"
*would respond
@@AB-et6nj very good.
Just offer to save them and their empire during a world war or two which they are losing.
Hello Dr. Peterson!
Just wanted to say Thank You for everything you do
Ikr? Switching back to my nerd brain now😆
Excellent interview. I learned quite a bit. The last part about the differences in aggression related to brain size, and the domestication of humans relating to lack of alphas, was especially enlightening.
An amazing book about Aggression in animal behavior and by extension sheds incite into human aggression is a book by Konrad Lorenz called, “On Agression”. It’s one of my favorite books ever. Just thought I would suggest it
In a moderately tangential vein, given which of aggression or affiliation requires more cultural fostering, one should note that the implementations of Rousseau-esque ideologies have resulted in mass-murder with far greater frequency and severity than implementations of Hobbes' ideologies. I suspect this might have to do with the fact that acts of violence often have catastrophic and terminal consequences, while acts of kindness need to become habitual, if they are not to be undone by relatively few acts of violence. Even if both impulses are equally innate in us, as a numbers game, it requires few acts of violence to ruin a society that otherwise frequently manifests kindness, and this requires us to pay special attention to our aggressive impulses when we are talking about how our societies are formed. Utopian schemes based on Rousseau, Marx, et al. set up unrealistic expectations and set us up for bitter disappointments that trigger aggressive, "Off with their heads!" impulses. It only takes one act of violence to kill someone and undo a life of thousands of kind acts, so kindness isn't something to be taken for granted.
@@pitpalac Maybe the external influence in this " domestication" (which is a weird way of expressing it I agree) is human population size mixed with a complete change in human life style. It wasn't that long ago we lived as hunter gathers, sometimes not seeing other humans for months at a time. That tribal nature in humans came from this time. Now suddenly we live in cities of millions, and this tribal nature is incompatible for this environment. Humanity it seems is under going some sort of transformation to something that is more suitable to a densely populated species, and we are in the early turbulent stage of the transformation. Things will probably be completely unrecognizable from our point of view in a few generations. I'm no expert but it seems that way to me.
@@amonnoma4810 consider how territorial invasions must have domesticated us as well, probably most aggressive males would mobilize to fight an invading army/group. I wonder if male populations twenty thousand years ago were substantially more aggressive or uncooperative.
@@amonnoma4810Tribes exist in cities. We call them gangs!!!
This was fantastic. Stay with it until the end. Looking forward to finding these books!
Thank you Dr. Peterson. It is always a pleasure to learn with some brilliant humans like you and Dr. Richard Wrangham.
The point I like it most was the assessment made about Rousseau vs Hobbes point of views. People should start to assume a neutral point of view as a legit one. And it is worth for many themes regarding human behavior and culture. This is not to be implied that we should turn opposite points of view into unlegit.
just an amazingly rich and full learning podcast amazingly guided conversation 10/10
What a privilege to spent sum time in a compony of such distict gentlemen, thank you very much and please continue your research and lessons 🙏
Such an interesting conversation, Professor Peterson you never cease to amaze me! So much fun!
This was an excellent discussion.
Thank you for introducing me to this brilliant author.
Thank you so much for making me discover dr. Wrangham's amazing contribution to our knowledge.
Learning is exciting . These interviews are exciting . Thank you for giving us this interview.
Jordan's face when he is told someone had to pull the elephant's tail to see if it's asleep 😆
Wow! 😲
That was a hell of interesting talk!
I feel so much smarter after that! 🤓
How many books and articles/papers this two read to have almost 2 hours of joyful, focused and very intellectual conversation?
And... C'mon! They translate everything for that a regular layman like me could understand something of that talk... And FOR FREE 💰💰💰
Thanks JP!
What a privilege to hear these two great minds come together.
Dr. Peterson, I love ur prep work. No matter who u r talking to, it seems u know the perfect comment or question to keep the conversation flowing. Keep it up. We love u.
Thoroughly enjoyed this gentleman. Many years ago I read a fascinating book, "Time, Sex and Power". Not since listening to your brilliant discussion have I encountered such compelling explanations of human evolution as I had read in that book.
Fantastic! I couldn't stop listening. I love how Jordan engages with very smart people! Thank you!
Try University. Its like this every day.
Hi Jordan. Fascinating interview, thank you. I want to add a small observation on the norm of hospitality to strangers. It is certainly not limited to the cultural Abrahamic tradition. In old Norse mythology, for instance, the chief god, Odin, insisted on such. He would even travel in disguise among people, punish those we did not show hospitality and reward those who did.
I made sure I watched with as much attention as I can muster. When my attention did not hold as long then I made sure to go back and watch it over again. It helps my understanding and that is a such help I appreciate so much. Thank you for sharing your work
Both Demonic Males and Catching Fire are fascinating, and completely capable of increasing one's understanding of why and how we are what we are. Great reads with surprising--and well documented--facts. Two of my favorite non-fiction books and highly recommended! (I look forward to the third!)
Lol. Not "why" just "how" people always get those things confused. No one can explain why, only how.
The movie doctor Peterson mentions at 1:36:00 is named The Ballad of Narayama.
"The Ballad of Narayama (楢山節考, Narayama Bushikō) is a 1983 Japanese film by director Shōhei Imamura. "
A good book to read would be The Son’s of Cain: A History of Serial Killers. The book isn’t a chronological events but also an examination of the human mind in killings. It also talks about human evolution these two talk in this podcast
@@presterjohn1697 You're talking garbage, Aborigines average 4%, Neanderthal, Europeans 1%.
Thanks for the reccomendation. Adding this to my list
@@presterjohn1697 I certainly agree with you about Peterson.
Now Neanderthals are the baddies👺That’s been simmering ready to explode for a long time 🤣🙄
Oh of course!!! The Northern Tyrants 💀👹☠️ Boo hoo!
The depth of the exchange that takes place within a mere 90 minutes is enough to create a state of "agglutination" of one's desire to stay and stay and stay in the circle of the conversation and actually remain engrossed in it in the aftermath of its ending. I guess this wondrously addictive approach to listening and pondering is what learning is all about. Oh, that I were young again to take advantage of this discovery. Thank you Jordan and Richard for creating these moments of wonder and beauty.
I recall the reduction in brain size as measured by volume is not indicative of any loss of cognition or intelligence. Rather, what was lost in volume was made up for by greater surface area, specifically the increased ridge formations in the brain that enhanced total surface area. Also, it would seem a socialization of children against reactive aggression would be necessary for a species with inherent aggression but reliant on cooperative behavior (or at least non-maladaptive socializing).
Less volume means less surface area. 😉
@@ericjsmoczynski4374 you aren't considering the wrinkles in the cortex.
I harbour a theory about cooperative behaviour requiring less cognitive grunt.
Neanderthals (larger brain capacity) being more solitary and less socially sophisticated due to lower population density.
Each individual would have to be more robust/self reliant physically AND mentally.
Sapiens sapiens survived using debate, specialisms and pooled knowledge to overcome problems.
As an introvert, this fits my perception of society more accurately.
I tend to view raving extroverts as not quite as smart and as more reliant on allies than on self reliance!
@@AndyJarman Correct.
@@AndyJarman So, more Neanderthal in you, or strong & silent Hollywood hero? Survival, co-operation etc amongst animals as smart, deceptive & dangerous as humans is very hard work ..
Dear JBP, thank you for this excellent video. It was a mind-blowing discussion.
♥It is a shame that over four years I found only 17 podcasters who are focused on the truth. Another super-interesting podcast Jordan. You bring on more informative guests, telling the truth, than any other. Each podcast makes me ever-more appreciative. I have learned a lot from you these past four years as I watch every podcast at least once and most multiple times. Your messages have changed my life for the better. Jordan, are asolutely a national treasure. This latest attack on you by your corrupt so-called piers is actually a beautiful thing because the more these idiots attack you the more popular you get. They really are struck-on-stuped but It's like free-advertising for you. As any farmer would say - Keep the chin up. LOL Byron Starr, Engineer, Truth-seeker. aka Pop* Vancouver BC
evolution is truth,hmmm not so sure, most don't belief in it,witch isn't a determinant factor in whats true,but evolution being true is outright wrong, i would consider it more a belief of theory
@@humility-righteous-giving it absolutely is true.
Trey the Explainer made a video called “rapid evolution”.
It cover examples of evolution and I recommend it.
How do you think different dog breeds are made? We pick specific traits that we want. Over generations the breeds differ more and more.
Nature favors some traits Over others. In the wild you can say nature picks specific traits, not literally, but those traits are passed down to the offspring.
@@HJimenez261so why don’t ALL people have the very same melanin that these VERY APES have and some do? I hope you’re not one of the people who actually believe that we are all the same.… Because that is the biggest misnomer in history. You want truth? NOT A SINGLE RACE SHARES ANOTHERS ORIGINS.. take a deep dive into ancient Armenians, Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal. Neanderthal looked like apes and look like one race of men. They had dark skin. Cro-Magnon man has never changed,we only gotten weaker as the time goes on and dna has PROVED this beyond a shadow of a doubt.. just like no one will tell you that the Vikings and the original Hebrew are the same man..… The language is the same the origins is the same and the customs are the same. And I don’t mean the people in Israel now. They stole the birthright. Unless you study a cult you would understand this part but that’s OK. When Darwin stuck his finger over his mouth and winked one eye,this is what he was saying. Our opinions of this is subjective but the facts aren’t.
@@HJimenez261we aren’t animals.. animals have no self control.. primates can’t think ahead and plan their lives.. Remember the word “melanin”.
@@thatsaltylife9855 animal- a living organism that feeds on organic matter, typically having specialized sense organs and nervous system and able to respond rapidly to stimuli.
We are descendants of apes. We are related to chimpanzees. By definition we are animals but if you’re are talking about will power and self control, look around the world. Money, sex, power are coveted by people, I’m not saying everyone but the lack of willpower and self control runs rampant in humanity.
Plus there are studies done that show corvids and apes that delay self gratification
There is a book called “the great ape project” and I really recommend it to see how close we act to apes. Their intelligence and ability to communicate isn’t far off from a six year old.
My degree and interest in biology aid in my ability to digest and appreciate this kind of discussion where inquiry and discussion can be interesting to digest in terms of the real world.
My lord, this is profound knowledge! I sincerely thank you both!
Please schedule another conversation!
Try University. Its like this every day.
@@BenState No shit? I wouldn’t know anything about that! I just majored in business with a minor in marketing. You must be an Astro physicist with a minor in interpretive dance.
I guess you told me, shitbird.
I loved how the explaination of cooking making homo sapiens from an ape into human as we know it, came from effectively pre-digesting the food to make it more bio-available, softer to eat, changing its taste and texture, requiring less effort to both chew, and digest, makes so much sense. I would suggest that cooking removing some of the known dangerous bacteria and parasites might also be something that isn't a small consideration either, from a survival aspect. An aspect of life in Australia in the late 18th, 19th, then 20th century was that every town and suburb had nearly a pub on each main corner, and tea and coffee houses were the next most common business enterprise, then general stores. This was because as a temperate to hot climate, we have a lot more bacteria in our stream and river water, than in colder climates, such as Europe. Therefore drinking beer, where fermentation killed the nasty water bugs, or boiled water, was a whole lot safer than drinking natural, untreated ground water! One of the big out takes from the human Genome project was that racial groups as we know them are a physical adaptation to environment and diet. As we have been using fire for two million years - perhaps how we cook and what we cook, as it changes how our bodies absorb and process our food, may have also had a part in that process....
@@333-d9c poser.
Another major factor in humanity's ability to develop is the fact that one of the most important mutations that changed humanity into humanity was the mutation that decreased our jaw strength.
The lack of the extra muscle and Bone structure needed to support a stronger jaw is what allows our brain to be so large.
There is likely a direct link between cooking our food and being able to survive with a weaker jaw and the larger brain, as well as the tool use needed to make use of both.
@@hariman7727 absolutely not true. Even in Darwin's time. There's a difference between genetic and physiological changes. You work out, your muscles get bigger. You have to chew harder, your jaw and surrounding muscles get bigger. Darwin in descent of man, said that smaller jaws in western world was caused by processed foods, while 3rd world people had to chew more. 3rd world people had no problem with wisdom teeth coming in, as larger jaws, while white people on refined diet adapted by having problems. yay of evolution that we are less fit. They also had no appendix problems either, as they ate a lot of fiber. XD
Humans developed fermented drinks as safer everywhere, whether beer in Egypt or wine in other parts. This was probably a side effect of combing waste water with drinking water. Wells didnt have this problem for the most part. You have a very small aspect on food preservation being fire. That's an immediate thing. Dehydration, salting, fermentation, artificial cold (root cellars) are MUCH bigger impacts on long term storage of food.
@@cobramcjingleballs ... This is documented history of humanity that I'm speaking about, where one of the key mutations that even allowed us to have a brain big enough to be as intelligent as we are now is the mutation that decreased jaw strength and musculature and bone structure that got in the way of having a larger brain.
Loved this podcast! So interesting and educative. Thank's gentlemen.
Please have this man narrate some bedtime stories. (I mean that in the best sense, so relaxing)
Outstanding. I was sorry to see it end. Please, let's have another discussion between you two.
@@user-rn8io3vy6t get a better job if you have time trying to scam people
Great interview! This is something I have been interested in since reading The Naked Ape, by Desmond Morris in the early 70's. While it was published in 67, I wasn't old enough to check it out for awhile.
Excellent conversation. Thank you for sharing your knowledge! ♥️
Robert Ardrey wrote a trilogy of books on human evolution. In addition to _African Genesis_ and _The Territorial Imperative_ , he also wrote _The Social Contract._ . Ardrey was an excellent writer and his books are still well worth reading even with the passage of a half century.
Cooking is proposed to be how we developed as humans, so that actually makes sense.
But you need to be human to develop cooking, with the necessary intelligence & digestive system.
@@Benzknees
No you just start off with all meat cooked rare then cook it more the more human you become ovbs
@@Dan-mm1yl - You mean coming across a carcass and eating rotten uncooked meat? But we don't have the necessary carnivore's digestive system for that. We need cooking for that. For cooking we need intelligence to plan, create & control fire. But you don't get a large brain & intelligence without the high numbers of calories such a brain needs from cooking. The whole theory is flawed.
I'm so excited to see this interview! Been following both these guys for a while. JP keeps bringing in the most intriguing guests. I wonder how he's choosing them.
▪️Thanks for commenting, make a note to Kathryn Linck regarding BTC/ETH investment ideas..
Ruthlessly entropic-based pot-luck 😋
In the discussion at the end of the video, I couldn't help but make a connection between what you guys were talking about, and, the sopranos. Throughout the show Tony is described as an "alpha male" on separate occasions by different people. He is large, aggressive, almost gorilla built and he is the leader of a tribe (La cosa nostra). And, like the doctor was explaining, he too is plotted against and killed. Tony was the epitome of an alpha male, and nobody was going to stand around for it, although he was a good leader, his ego and aggression made him a target as well.