Asking a Theoretical Physicist About the Physics of Consciousness | Roger Penrose | EP 244
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 มิ.ย. 2024
- Dr. Peterson recently traveled to the UK for a series of lectures at Oxford and Cambridge. This conversation was recorded during that period with Sir Roger Penrose, a British mathematical physicist who was awarded the 2020 Nobel Prize in Physics for “discovering that black hole formation is a robust predictor of Einstein’s general relativity.”
Moderated by Dr. Stephen Blackwood.
___________
Chapters
___________
[0:00] Intro
[1:00] Is Consciousness Computational?
[3:20] Turing Machines
[6:30] Determinism & the Arrow of Time
[12:15] Consciousness & Reductionism
[17:30] Emergent Randomness & Evolution
[23:00] The Tiling Problem, Computation, & AI
[29:30] Escher, Brains, Bach
[39:00] Pattern Recognition & Intuition
[45:30] Mathematical Representations & the Physical World
[54:00] Collapsing Schrodinger’s Equation
[1:00:00] Consciousness-Independent Reality
[1:07:00] Black Holes & Time Horizons
[1:15:00] Einstein’s Biggest Mistake
[1:27:00] Meaning & Consciousness
[1:39:00] Hawking Spots: Potential
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For all the problems of the modern world, the fact that I can so easily listen in on a conversation between two minds such as Penrose and Peterson makes me feel blessed.
I rhink Dr. Peterson is postulating whether ir not there are other algorithms possible to arrive at consciousness if it is mathematically driven.
How true
@@docmacdvet I Think Prof Roger is Saying Maths will Expose that the AI is Not Human Consciousness but Many Humans may Not be able to Differentiate.
Interesting Topic.
Huuuuah ?
Kidding. 👍
Despite being a brilliant mathematician, Nobel laureate physicist, worldly acclaimed academic, I love how willing Sir Roger is to say "I don't know"
Anyone who is honest knows there are things that we know, things that we don't know , things we know we don't know and things we don't know that we don't know because how could we ?
The smarter and more knowledgable you are, the more you know that there are countless things you dont know.
Only a stupid man knows everything, because he isn't even aware of how small his knowledge is.
And that's the greatest pain of scientists (any field), when trying to answer one unknown, you end digging up 10 new unknown.
i allways wondered why it is SO DIFFICULT fir people that i ask a lot and they get angry when they dont know an answer instead of just saying "i dont know"
In my sales career, I have been told that my clients truly appreciate my willingness to tell them, “I don’t know, but what I do know is that I can find the answer”
@@jakem5782 thats good
He is 90 years old and he is talking about advanced physics. That is another level of badass!
It'd be even more impressive if he was three years old👀
@@kkath_greenmachine No it won't . It would be illogical, because it would require an intervention of some inhuman force, and would be fit for nothing but animation movie for kids, or a horror movie, or something that silly.
But we can see here is a reality that shows what the human brain muscle could do if you keep training it. And reality, in my humble opinion, is far more impressive than animation movies and horror shows :)
He's able to do that because he didn't decide to give up on his career when he reached retirement age, unlike 95% of westerners.
@@kkath_greenmachine Well.... he WAS 3 years old.... 88 years ago!
Why surprise? Our President is also 80 years old too. Still ruling the world.
What I LOVE about this talk is that questions are asked, they listen intently to each other until they have a good understanding, then there is answer. Nobody is getting self-righteous, or annoyed. THIS, my friend, is GREAT conversation!
This intrigues me and makes me think a lot about AI possible characteristics.
@@antoniosantiago22 it's all in perception
@@antoniosantiago22 Peterson was clearly trying to introduce ideas to tie together solid, working theories.
There can be a debate about his ability to do so, but suggesting he was "overcomplicating" things is, at best, reductive.
I had the same thought.
@@AppleOfThineEye There isn't a debate. In this case, Peterson has NO ability to make any sort of working theory out of the words of one of the greatest living physicists and mathematicians. He is way, WAY out of his depth.
Compare the way he interviews Penrose to the way Lex Fridman and Joe Rogan did. That is, they kept quiet a lot more.
Never thought I would understand Dr. Penrose's answer more than Dr. Peterson's questions.
"i still dont think it´s the same thing". Peterson often uses examples and metaphors that are too wide for the case. Penrose has a single clear notion of what this "is not", therefore batting down most analogies
@@Mcgernica i feel like penrose would have been open to exploring wide reaching metaphors and connections to other concepts in they had been more on point. he often noticed peterson was missing the point and clarified that hes open to changing the subject so long as its explicit and no connections are are implied between the two subjects
What Penrose understands and talks are the most difficult concepts a human being can grasp and describe. And Perterson is not a physicist.
@@Oxydron yeah but they were both keeping it on the philosophy side. penrose was very careful to avoid shutting peterson down with actual physics and kept it to just briefly clarifying theorems and theories as it pertained to petersons philosophical interpretation. honestly peterson did not look like a professional academic that had time to prepare for this interview. maybe his schedule didnt allow it? stuck in his own interpretation of things several times in a row like a 101 student if you ask me.
@@Oxydron if theres a physicist out their that can bring complex concepts from physics into the realm of philosophy with the right conversation its penrose. and petersons reverence towards penrose suggests that he in fact prepared a lot for this interview but in a way thats very self involved. but thats just me getting into not liking peterson as an intellectual celebrity. and maybe penrose is getting too old to feild this kind of interview
i appreciate peterson's courage to ask blindly in a field not his own. you can see a childlike eagerness and curiosity to know more.
@@Theactivepsychos I know right? At least Peterson recognises it and adjusts somewhat, its a real intelligent discourse.
That and if not intimidation, reverence.
@@Theactivepsychos I don't think it's that. It's just that Penrose seems more of a balanced thinker who has learnt the limits of his conscious capability.
JP has a craving for absolutes in topics he's well-informed and uninformed in, whereas Penrose seems to have come to terms with certain fundamental questions going unanswered in his lifetime, so knows where to stop inquiry and thus comes off as more humble.
I wouldn't paint JP in an arrogant light though, nor Penrose as particularly humble.
@@Theactivepsychos I don't think it's that, because JP definitely backtracks and tries to understand as much as he can.
At the end of the day, it's just different approaches to learning and analysis, not egotistical predisposition.
@@Theactivepsychos and what does that have to do with this lecture? Now you're the one just looking to back his pre-built conclusions.
Although the interview flapped during the first part, and the guest is aware of it, annoyed by the questions, the conversation improves when he speaks of his memories and experiences, but he is misunderstood or asked questions that do not relate to his field. He is strictly about physics, a genius! I thoroughly enjoyed listening to him towards the end, I think that we all learned a lot from this interview, including Peterson. We don't know what we don' t know.
The questions weren’t annoying, they were challenging, that may be why u didn’t like it
Annoying to a brilliant mind? Don’t think so bro honestly
@@mouthfulofmacno, they didn’t like it because the first half was full of confusion and misunderstanding, along with partial rudeness
Thanks for this. I was about to switch "off" having watched 20 minutes of JP trying too hard to wrangle randomness into non-computability.
Simply wonderful. Thank you very very much. It is an immense pleasure to hear Sir Roger giving clear answers, as "No" or "I don't know"
I am going to sit through this and pretend I understand every word of it.
Listen to penrose on Joe rogan, lex fridman and Sean carrol as well. That way u can triangulate what he's saying and build a picture that makes sense without having to understand the micro details. Also penrose book the emporers new mind is quite accessible
Me too
Same. But I’m intrigued that I’m intrigued. So I’ll stick around and see what happens.
Hahaha
@m_train1 🧘🏻♀️
First time I have heard Jordan sound more like the child rather than the father. Great conversation. Was nice to see Jordan's child like curiosity come out. Penrose is "off the scale" intelligent.
Jordan showed us he is unable to understand a shit about what Penrose work is about, and the Jordan has a collection of basic, disconnected, uncompleted pieces of knowledge about computability, AI, conciousness etc. It is the first time I have seen Peterson saying ridicolous and out of the scope things.
@@JordiLinares you didn't understand their conversation, or how understanding develops through conversation. Dr Peterson has an IQ roughly the size of your bank balance, so any respect for your comment is only from the ignorant and stupid.
@@JordiLinares dont we all?
Goes to show the scale of holes in this type of knowledge from jordan and the intelligence to actually connect the dots that he has to fully grasp what he is missing
You could also see it from a positive perspective: how cool is it that Jordan surrenders and permitted himself to act like a thirsty shild squeezing out the last single drip of Penrose
@@JordiLinares You expect Peterson to know and understand everything? Even things outside his field?
Thirty years ago when I was in grad school (physics), a philosophy professor asked me to lunch to discuss a concept that was bothering him. He asked about a statement he read that a photon feels no time. Watching this discussion I'm fascinated that Jordan seems to have focused on the same concept. The discussion ended up covering many aspects of physics and beyond. It was obviously memorable.
I am absolutely glued.. I need this knowledge snd opinions and all of it... Jordan Peterson, you are the best therapist I've ever had. You will be remembered for your fight for truth when the world tried to bury ethics in medicine and science. You are leading a war against corruption by using compassion and logic. This is a direct example of knowledge being the true power. Continue to be like water flowing over rocks until they wear down to sand. We love you and your amazing family. 🤍
I am so thankful that people like me can have access to this kind of thought provoking and educational discussions between people of great merit like Roger and Jordan. What a privilege and blessing. I feel so fortunate.
Don't overdo it.
True
its only our legacy, and something that should have been being done since the advent of television
i don't consider myself lucky as much as consider myself owed
I was thinking the same thing. What a world we live in where we can be a fly on the wall in a conversation like this.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. Acts 16:31
I enjoy how careful and precise Roger Penrose is to make an erroneous connection between two seemingly related topics. As a physicist, he is concerned with the facts and reality, it is very much the case that two physics concepts are in fact very different, or else they would only require one law. He is concerned utmost with being factually correct, so as not to undermine his existing body of work and his own credibility as a Nobel Prize-winning scientist.
Contrary, Peterson plays with the framework of ideas, he draws the gist out of incredibly complicated ideas from many different fields and tries to refine his mental representations by adding similar examples, very Feynman method-like, and an example of multi-modal analysis. Jordan aims to find universal truths that can be reached across multiple levels of analysis from different fields, despite not specializing or understanding the finer mechanics of those fields.
This interview very much demonstrated the Harris vs. Peterson divide on the definition of truth. Penrose takes this as empirical, whereas Jordan is more open to metaphorical and narrative truths.
this is all true however I have a strange feeling Dr Peterson is trying a bit too hard here. It seems as Penrose is getting slightly annoyed at some of the attempts.
I agree with your observation. I believe both of their approaches are important because I think every human wrestles with life and ideas in these ways. Of course some more so empirically and some more relatively.
This is a really nice way of saying Jordan is completely lost and grabbing for straws.
@@heywayhighway lol seemed like he grasped quite a bit for having never studied advanced mathematical physics before. As well as asked good questions and was forthright with the concepts he was struggling to grasp until he was satisfied. And then he related these concepts that were new to him to concepts he knows very well... You know, kinda like anyone who enjoys talking with others about complex ideas?
@@heywayhighway isn't it weird how easily people get salty and become haters online? What do you think makes people spend time online just trying to put others down?
Thank you for this interview, so many references. Abundance of knowledge, yet so concise. Bless you all.
What a wonderful discussion. Jordan, if this Jordan could turn up to every meeting and every discussion you had … your ability to influence the world would expand by an order of magnitude. What a lovely Jordan to be in the presence of. So it’s to know he is always there … and how can we get how can we get him to always be there.
I’m not an academic but for some reason listening and watching this discussion made my heart sing. Pure joy for me. Thank you to you BOTH!
I'm with you on that! 😀
Might not be in an academic field but you sound academic to me. Getting excited about the pursuit of knowledge might be the core of academia
I felt exactly the same!!
Pure curiosity and wonder I think
They're both amazing story tellers, extremely expressive and the best at what they do. They resonate passion.
My admiration and love to Roger Penrose after this conversation have increased , he has so an incredible and humble mind. My blessings to him.
It's super difficult to find a cocky briton, I can attest to that.
And patience… 😃
Mr. Peterson... What a privilege to be engage in such a varied and deep discussion and privilege for me to observe. But...! Listening to Sir Roger's words, tone and observing his demeanour, I cannot help but think that he has some thoughts about some subjects that he decided not to mention. I am sure those thoughts would have been just as intriguing and potentially controversial. This was an excellent discussion that has challenged me to find a connection between all that was discussed in this video and the spiritual realm... Never stop thinking.
This is probably one of the most amazing videos I have watched in a long time. I have pondered the existence of the universe since I was a child, and I have hypothesized the exact thoughts Penrose spoke of near the end of this video. I have thought of both the expanding and collapsing theory and the this continual theory many times. I could not put it into mathematical or scientific language as Penrose did though. This is amazing, thank you.
Dr. Peterson’s humility is refreshing. Never afraid to put his ideas out there. He is acutely aware of other points of view and and willing to adapt and refine his ideas. Always learning and progressing.
so , an adult
@@RR-et6zp a quite rare thing this days
He does well in this room!
Hardly, he spouts off on topics he has no idea about all the time - economics, and now philosophy of mind. To top it off, he asks a physicist about consciousness which is like asking a sprinter about skiing.
@@Camcolito Roger penrose has been working on consciousness for over a decade, WTF are you on about?
This guy is 91 years old. To maintain this level of mental wherewithal and wit in his advanced age is any thinking persons dream.
wherewithal is a cool word😊
Amen to that.
Likely he never daydreamed a moment of any day in his life but instead engaged intensely continuously in deep thought every second of his life. He might even be obsessively thoughtful.
I give Penrose a lot of credit for having so much patience with Peterson's dumb ass questions/challenges. Really wasted the man's time
@@avigindratt7608 that’s such an arrogantly ignorant thing to say
This is delightful. I could listen to these two forever.
I’ve been looking all over for this talk,Much Gratitude for those Who posted this.💐
Jordan and Roger were definitely talking past each other on several occasions, meaning the same thing but using a different type of language. Still a great conversation to listen to. Two of my heroes talking to each other.
I got the feeling that Penrose has a way deeper understanding of these issues. Jorden is brilliant, but even he was out of his depth here...
@@viktordoe1636 the only issue being Penrose even with his library of knowledge isnt willing to openly talk about the spiritual or metaphysical in public due to his reputation and knighthood so the issues at hand will never be solved by him🤷♂️
They were talking past each other and JBP was way out of his depth at the start. I felt Penrose was holding back quite a bit and only spoke in terms of physics and mathematics nothing more… it shut the conversation down quite a few times
@@ismaeleo I think JBP didn't do his "homework". He obviously had no idea what superposition means or what the collapse of the wave function entails. He seems to think that non-determinism or randomness is the essence of conciousness, which was show stopper for Penrose.
Different universes, differences brain hemispheres. Embarrassing to watch.
After quitting my philosophy studies in university 10 years ago because I was bored out of my skull most of the time, I didn‘t think I would ever get this excited about a 100 minute long recording of 3 older men in a poorly lit room discussing intellectual topics.
Lol right? These guys certainly deserve some comfy chairs and a fireplace or something🔥🤣❤️
You were bored studying philosophy?! I thought one will get exasperated rather than bored…
ii am no interlect but at least they simplify it enough for us to get a grasp
Will Peterson, please, tackle Spiral?
Seriously.
@@melaniaborzan8889 it is literally the major for those unable to make it in a real major. The modern equivalent of a degree in gossip (socialite).
thanks ! Sir Penrose is a calm, brilliant man in Physics and a paradigm of applying Platonic thinking. Math related to higher forms. TThanks Dr Peterson for participating on behalf of consciousness,
Yes. This was the frustrating element in the first part of the conversation. Penrose is trying to restrict the conversation of understanding-consciousness to a non-psychological set/domain (discounting any Uncertainty/material uncertainty/determinism etc.) and stating that, even within this domain (I see why Plato/Ideals/Ideas/rationalism etc. is a good descriptor here) there is an issue of consciousness regarding its assumption of proofs according to how it arrives at those proofs etc. etc. I don’t have the fundamental understanding to meet either of these positions/thinkers in full, but this differentiation was never really ironed out and was very frustrating to watch.
Roger clearly explained his position in the first few moments, and they spent another 20 mins trying to understand it
Yup lol. I don't think he wants to be there either, because his take on the whole matter is simple and short. It claims nothing beyond what it says, it's not speculative and it's not open-ended the way the other two men are trying to make it out to be
@@sen7826 useful things come from extrapolation
I've never seen Dr Jordan Peterson so on the edge of his seat, asking questions and getting excited to hear what will be said or explained. I think it shows the true nature of Sir Roger Penrose' intelligence, and knowledge in general on these subjects. And just how interesting a subject it is.
I thought the same, and if anything Peterson I could tell was to an extent intimidated and a bit nervous as not to come across too uninformed (although he is out of his wheel house and just curiously picking his brain for added detail to his own philosophies). This guy's intelligence is off the handle.. I mean at his age he's surely declined a good amount from his prime and still he maintains a genius IQ.. just makes me wonder his genius when he was younger.
Also I couldn't help but notice how tightly Penrose kept his statement within what he knows and didn't entertain or go down rabbit holes of philosophy or assumptions. Tbh I felt that slightly annoying as I'd like to here what his assumptions beyond what he knows would be a bit more, but I respect how much integrity he has when speaking of things we simply don't know.
Peterson's demeanor does not reflect on anything other than Peterson is a complete ninny.
@@TailoredReaction lol okay.. I don't agree with everything he says, but he certainly isn't a fool.
@@dartskihutch4033 Jordan Peterson is a complete embarrassment to Canada. The stories I could tell you about him from 20 - 25 years ago, long before he became such a hero to the Trump crowd down south. One thing for absolute certain, Jordan Peterson IS NOT an intellect. Don't be fooled by his verbal salads.
People giving their opinion , no matter how uridite, I not a reason to be intimidated. Love to learn, and like listening to the same. Pomposity is no virtue. Good here.
If you take a step back and look at this moment objectively, it is so beautiful and what a privilege it is to be alive at a time where this conversation was both possible, as well as documented for us to watch for free.
This conversation could have just as easily never manifested itself for an endless, countless slew of reasons...but it did.
Thank you, Dr. Peterson.
@@psychcowboy1 Sir Roger Penrose was the one answering with intelligent answers posed by Dr. Peterson's thoughtful questions, while Dr. Peterson was in the role of the one who was using his genuine curiosity and awe, playing the role of the interviewer as well as student.
He asked questions for the lot of us, given the opportunity to sit down with a man of that caliber, in his 90s.
And I thanked Dr. Peterson for making this conversation possible. Because it was most certainly not Sir Roger Penrose who sought out Dr. Peterson to schedule time to sit down for an interview.
Hope that explained.
@@Kroitk this is a great way to respond to that question you handled that well, and I agree 100% with your summation I love conversations like this what a privilege for us
@@psychcowboy1 not as thoughtful and deep as your name Molecule boulder.
and here you are again to troll people... get a life...
Happened all the time in the 60s 70s and 80s on Public and Access channells.
Weekend tv.
I never imagine myself getting interested in this topic even though I flunked out of college. Sir Roger is Amazing
Just because you’re a bad student doesn’t mean that you’re stupid. It just means you’re undisciplined, which is a trait you can improve on.
Yeah the fact you flunked out of college is precisely why I never imagined you getting interested in this topic.
Yeah@@FaxanaduJohn
Understanding is something which requires consciousness... This is such a great relief in whole podcast. Thanks Roger. 😊
However, what is the source of human Consciousness?
@@steveflorida5849 I think there is no source and "It ' is the source.. the intelligent mind or what we call matrix.
@@abhinavkumar8396 so you claim there is no source, and then say "it" is the source of human Consciousness.
What is IT?
@@steveflorida5849 well according to Bible I think "It" is God ... Or the Creator. He created human consciousness even.
At the point you don't know you should say you don't know
Aren't we all so fortunate to be able to listen in and watch a conversation like this?
I agree.what role emotions play is what I'm thinking.the pianist plays different ly just because he she feels like it.holds a note a little more.plays more dramatically just because the mood suggest s it?
Yes and understand the conversations and agree and disagree with or solve some of the systems, words and other forms spoken about as I enjoy doing without having any titles or over the education of time lost in some cases with those
kind of humans if, in fact, you would call them that rather than nuts, eccentrics or whatever? I say that with respect to what I have been referred to over my life as a nut etc even bipolar when called that I say no Tripolar I am smarter than just a 2 polar being while I am looking at the 2polar person calling me bipolar the stupid ass.
Yes, crazy to think just 40 years ago only a select few people would get to witness this. Now nearly the whole world can get unfettered access.
I'm so happy Sir Roger Penrose dedicated some of his precious time to have this discussion with Jordan Peterson! Considering the huge popularity of the latter, it sure will bring questions about physics, cosmology and the "hard problem of consciousness" to a large audience, which is great. More discussions like this one. More!
Cut with the hero worship. This was a meeting of two men, two clever humans. But Penrose was like an intellectual automaton.
@@thedolphin5428 I don't "worship heroes", I just made a comment about a discussion I found very interesting. If you have time to waste in unpleasant replies to comments, that's your problem.
This is a great conversation between two of the greatest minds in recent history! Wonderful!😊👍
This is gold! I am so glad and grateful I found this content💖
Penrose is brilliant. He is wonderfully straight forward, intelligent and unpretentious.
Yes when jordon spoke of the collapse penrose is saying that basically consciousness is emergent that inclines that things can affect it but the conscious cannot affect things. The pattern birds fly in is because of the birds , the pattern itself does not create the bird. That’s why telekinesis is not real but physical reality causing hallucinations is real
All people with true intellect are unpretentious.
You forgot he doesn't look at Jordan once!
He's spectrum!
Those people might be intellectual but they lack in basic human relations!
Hello....it's called the fucking soul
How can brilliant people be so dumb and clueless!
@@JeanneCiampa What are you talking about, get off those drugs, he looks at him multiple times while explaining Peterson’s silly doubts about Escher’s drawings and so on. Jordan overdoes his confidences persona so much that the other person looks a bit odd without context.
This man's mind is a goldmine, and it needs to be mined completely before hes gone.
Long live Sir Roger Penrose, one of the greatest minds alive today.
What an optimistic comment!
but on point. The significance of Penrose's perspective is vastly under appreciated by the modern physics community, possibly because of its bizarre and totally illogical faith that fundamental physics is more likely accessible via high energy physics. I have a degree in the subject so neither expert nor layman, but I have read extensively in English and maths everything I could find to justify this belief and so far I have only found poorly constructed Sophistry.
a gold mind, if you will
Dont focus on the person…focus on his ideas cause they do sure can live for ever…
@@Ging_10 yeah of course, I think that entirely misses the point of the comment. He tends to only speak of what he's quite certain, but there will be a much larger wealth of thinking which would best be teased out in interviews etc. before they are lost. He has had a very unique position in a unique juncture of history.
If you don't know what's different and therefore why your totally generic cookie cutter comment isn't particularly useful here, best learn a bit more about his theories and history first.
Just started listening! Man this is an intense exchange. I am so glad to be able to listen to it.
Yes Dr. Jordan Peterson. Thank you for this important episode. Brilliant
Peterson's openness is on display here. A few of the connections he makes across domains don't land, but some do, and they enrich the conversation
I was just thinking about how this aspect of Peterson might be one of the reasons I find his conversations so interesting. He has a mode of thinking that seems to be very rare among scientist/intellectual communicators. When very intelligent people talk with him he makes lateral moves that nobody sees coming. It's like he's a master jazz musician, and when he closes his eyes and twiddles his fingers he's improvising a phrase that the other musicians don't see coming.
That's one his great strengths. Also sometimes a weakness though, as it can make him drift far off-topic. Which is great fun if you are just listening casually, but I imagine could have been hard for his students to follow.
That's an important aspect of his intellectual process. He is willing to attempt making connections in front of an audience and is comfortable with the possibility some may not land.
This is very valuable for intellectual progress. I've read a few times that a problem in modern academia is that all domains are so specialized that they have formed bubbles around them and rarely interact with each other, and it is indeed frowned upon if you, coming from a discipline, write bout another you are not an expert in. In the past they had greater interactivity and a lot of groundbreaking results come from these types of interactions.
Which ones land?
And just like that, Dr Peterson casually drops a conversation of a lifetime... As I was listening to Sir Roger's explanation of his model of the universe, man, awe and gratitude were the only things in my mind. Once again, thank you for everything, Dr Peterson.
@@nuqwestr Penrose had to spend much of his time saying "that is not what I'm saying." Peterson kept trying to get Penrose to say something that fits his theist narrative and Penrose would not go there. Luckily, Peterson gave it a rest after a while and stopped trying steer Penrose.
@@markstipulkoski1389 Yeah, and how many times did he have to say, "I don't think I understand the question."? Ridiculous conversation.
@@markstipulkoski1389 at what point was theism ever a part of this conversation?
@@markstipulkoski1389 Where was theism in this? Is there some other conversation I missed?
@@CleverMetaphor I did not state theism was discussed. Jordan Peterson and Stephen Blackwood are both theists. Roger Penrose is a self- described agnostic, which means he sees no evidence of the existence of a god or gods, and thinks that the question is logically unknowable. I'm with Penrose and I know the arguments of theists. JP/SB tried to twist RP view that consciousness is not computational to mean that it cannot be derived from the physical world. RP later used his tiling example to clarify what "non-computational" means to mathematicians and that it doesn't mean that it ultimately can't be understood. At 52:15, RP states that "consciousness is not YET part of current physics." So Roger is not a dualist. JP/SB also tried to go down the path that conscious observers are needed to collapse the quantum mechanical wave function and so consciousness is necessary for our universe to exist. Theist say God is the first cause, the first conscious observer that collapsed the wave function. A silly argument in that a true God would not be bound by the QM laws that He created. Anyway, RP explicitly stated that universes dont require conscious observers. JP/SB were looking for confirmation of their theist beliefs from a Nobel prize winning mathematician/physicist but they did not get that.
So engaging. Two famous people who are discussing weighty subjects of great importance - and BOTH are acknowledging their "don't know" perspective. Great video.
"thank you for uploading these videos. Even if I'm having a hard night, I just put a relaxing astronomy video on and listen. It always makes my nights go much easier.
Thank you!!!"
Imagine being in a presence of Sir Penrose and Jordan Peterson... Its like watching your heart and brain having a discussion
Wonderful way of putting it!
I couldn't have said it any better 😅
@@phasespace4700 The scope of your thinking, the scope of ignorance.
I doubt even 0.1% of people in the comments have a brain that could honestly feel kinship wuth Penrose (myself included in the 99.9%).
The guy is a legend, albeit a far less popularly known one vs the likes of Hawking.
I learned about this guy first when visiting an exhibit of MC Escher artwork and found out he had collaborated with Penrose on at least one occasion.
Basically Comic-Con for uber nerds🤔
Truly grateful to Dr. Penrose and Dr. Peterson and Dr. Blackwood for making the conversation happen, and to all the people for their work in making it publicly accessible.
Such a great podcast! Thanks for sharing!
Great interview, good it has somebody intelligent and respectful as Jordan, intelligent to understand and apply logic to a science that is not his forte, and respectful to ask clarificarion on ambiguity instead of letting it pass and not thruly learning what the professor is trying to explain.
Oh what privilege we have as a society that we can listen to the conversation of such gentlemen. What a privilege to be able to rewind and play it back as well.
You've watched it TWICE?!
Spot on!
Thankful for technology.
I pause more than rewind. I can’t keep up with the processing speed of these guys. I need a break to process every few minutes, or seconds.
We need more people like Penrose! He is really thinking outside the box. He doesn't put assumptions on all the things he learned, like many smart people still do. We need more people like him, who is curious and ask the right questions. He truly knows where the black spots are in our knowledge. He points them out clearly. We are watching a genious of our time. 200 years from now he will be known because he was one of the few who understood how little we know and where we should look
I agree. If humans prevail, future scientists will explore these initial ideas by Penrose and find a new science
Or he will have been shown to be wrong. Thats how science works. Yay science
His real strength is clarity
@@darricshhh something we have lost recently in the rush to accept science as absolute.
Well I’m 24 minutes in and Penrose has yet to communicate any intelligible ideas in the English language. He has just been repeating that he knows everyone else is wrong on the topic of consciousness, but cannot explain why. In what way does that reflect his intellectual ability? I can only speak for my personal conscience experience, but I think this way about ideas on a daily basis. I can answer a question that can be done with calculation correctly without doing the calculations with any sort of equation. How is that different from photo machine learning? Can you “understand” without visualization in your mind? Try it…let me know how that works out for you.
WOW!!!! That was one of the best talks I have ever heard, much less watched! 2 big brains from their own respective specialties hashing out reality, what a chat!
It's extremely hard to have a casual chat with a top physicist I suppose, he'll constantly ask you to clarify or correct you :). Nice interview, thank you!
This is the type of discussion that gives me a huge amount of hope for the future. The audience is pulled along for a ride and respected, not belittled. It says this topic is serious and should be respected, and the audience deserves to hear what has to be said. So often the corporate press treats the audience as though they are children and give them watered down version of what is to be said. This is not the case in this instance.
There is no future if we won’t stop “decolonising science” and think that math is racist. I know or hope that this is propagated by loud minorities but for some idiotic reason universities around the world bend over to this ideology.
Then you should pick a better conversation with Penrose and someone else than Peterson. Peterson only have a personal agenda. Real scientist has not. Penrose is an excellent scientist who got the Nobel prize.
@Postmortem Colonoscopy no he doesnt
@Postmortem Colonoscopy contempt in what sense? That it’s inadequate? Excessive or something else?
This is one of the best interviews i've seen with Sir Roger (and i've seen many, one of which in person), becuase Dr Peterson is not afraid to ask questions and to request more detailed explainations. He is not afraid to say he didn't understand. Many other interviewers just do not not dare, because they don't want to look stupid, as if failing to understand Sir Roger's 5 dimensional chess arguments on the first take would in any way make you stupid.
Bravo to Dr Peterson here.
I felt like Peterson was outside of his wheelhouse (and said as much) when it came to quantum physics and general relativity and he spent a lot of time trying to find psychological and physiological comparisons at the beginning.
I really did enjoy his explanation of his theory of the cosmos! (Einstein’s mistake part, onward) The end of infinite expansion (photon soup) is equivalent to the beginning of the expansion (also a photon soup). Very interesting! I really can’t believe Jordan gave up the thread at that point - that’s where my interest really peaked.
Roger lives with cosmological timelines in his head; where the Milky Way black hole collides with Andromeda and another observer confirms his hypotheses in the next eon.
Jordan’s focus on consciousness and human realizations seemed a bit too meta-physically vague for Roger. The hunt for meaning is such a small subset in his bath of mathematical truths in the cosmos. I think for him, meaning = objects + rules / spacetime
When Penrose really gets going he's a wizard.and very eloquent.
This is fantastic to see these two amazing gents talking together. Coincidentally I recently passed my PhD (mostly AI related) and quoted both Jordan Peterson and Roger Penrose in my thesis! :)
Congratulations! Jordan would be proud of you. 🙂
Well done !
Well done 👏
Congrats Man!
I'm surprised the university didn't fry you for daring to mention Peterson
Damn this man is sharp for his age. My granddad (bless his soul) only got to live to the age of 79 and in his last 3 years he deteriorated to such a degree that he couldn't function at all. It was sad to witness. Sir Penrose is 90 now (almost 91) and he talks about stuff in a very clear way which most adults aren't able to do. Amazing.
Use it or lose it😎
A lesson for us all.
Penrose reminds me of Alan Dershowitz, Alan is very sharp for his age. 80 something. He does vlogs on Rumble called the Dershow.
The brain is a muscle and he’s the Arnold Schwarzenegger of physics
definitely sharp for a 90-year old. Queen Elizabeth II was incredibly sharp right up until her death recently.
I went to a lecture of Roger a few months ago and the way he talks you would think he was 30 or 40 years younger.
Just like with Jordans biblical lectures I could listen to this 10 times and learn new things. Thank you Mr Peterson for everything you do.
Great vid . Thank you for the enlightenment . My brain will never be the same . ❤ from 🇨🇦
That was a very interesting conversation to listen to. I don't feel quite as slow when also I hear theoretical physicists say they don't understand a question which I have to listen to a few times before I have a grasp of it. Thank you for sharing, Dr. Peterson. God bless you and your family.
Sir Roger Penrose everyone knows that he is unarguably one of the best minds we have in the field of mathematics and physics, and I have seen his other talks as well but the kind of knowledge you have been successful in taking out of him is phenomenal. Thank you very much for this talk. You have made a lot of people much smarter than they were earlier through this effort. Thank you once again.
Great episode!!!! Thank you, gentlemen!
Good to hear Peterson asking questions.
Jordan - “What are the geometric forms conceptually?”
Roger - “I just like doing puzzles man.”
Perfect👌
I think it's beyond (tiling) puzzles. But it hilariously comes off as if Peterson is trying to figure out what is wrong with Penroses mind from a psychiatric point of view. (I mean, who knows, lol) But he's probably mostly trying his best to follow the logical reasoning.
I think some tiling problems are a visual way to illustrate examples of uncomputability and even to some extent, what the hell understanding and consciousness is. I think Penrose is more drawn to those abstract ideas and it so happens that certain puzzles shed light on other concepts which he is (also) drawn to.
I'd say one interest might fuel the other and vice versa.
It’s interesting to see Sir Roger tame Dr. Peterson in his eagerness to understand the questions he’s asking him. You can clearly see that Penrose is the teacher and Peterson is the student here. You can tell he is so excited just listening and learning from him.
Sir Roger is not able to articulate his ideas as clearly and on the same level as Jordan Peterson. So in another way, Jordan has to come down to his level too.
@@shaunmcinnis566 okay so I was thinking it was something like this though,
To me it looks like Roger is older than Peterson, and so he’s little slower, especially verbally like you said. So I think he Dosent want jordan to try anything crazy, like in the beginning jordan used the word “faith” and roger didn’t like that,
I think there’s some tension between the two of them because they are on two different paradigms. Roger, the computational physics side, and jordan the transcendent psychology
@@thomasgarman6353 Good point.
Dr. Jordan was very much his usual self, I also felt that Penrose certainly did seem to want tom curb his enthusiasm, however I do not think curbing enthusiasm is the mark of a good teacher.
You can see Peterson's lateral thinking here when contrasted with how Penrose seems to think, which is very logically, but not at all analogical. Peterson is making perfectly legitimate connections, IMHO, and ones I've heard in nascent form elsewhere, but in Penrose's mind they are separate and distinct issues, one in this box and one in the other. Both brilliant but in very different ways.
Stephen for the win with those crazy deep questions near the end!! Wow! Beautiful man!
You can't have this conversation without an economist at the table Mr. Peterson! Humans are intermediaries in the deterministic and teleological world. And human action is a major driver of change. Psychology is a science that deals with the ends we choose but the corridor betwen that subjective realm and the objective realm is not consciousness, it is action. Human action in the real world. Economics is a branch of praxeology, an a priori discipline, whose laws are derived deductively from an ultimate axiom. Praxeology is the application of formal logic to the concept of human action in economic terms (not psychological) in that it deals with objective realities like scarcity, time, and the means. I would highly recommend Ludwig von Mises's Human Action to you not just because I liked it, but because I think you would like it. You are a thinking man. And Ludwig von Mises is one of the few literary economists who can show you how to think about economics. Bless you for all you do.
He's 91 years old and speaks more lucidly than any thirty-year-old I've met.
It's what occurs when a person consistently uses their brain their whole life rather than wasting it away.
He's far beyond the average zoomer/millennial. Equality doesn't exist.
@@greyinsight This isn't normal. He was born with an exceptionally robust and wired brain, causing him to have an extremely high-IQ, defending him against cognitive-decline beyond the threshold for lost-lucidity. What you are mentioning is not on it's own enough to make a man born with an IQ of 90 to speak this way at 91 years old.
@@chasecole4841 Im aware. I simply encourage the consistent use of your brains cognitive function in all aspects rather then having it deteriorate away from lack of utilization.
I think Joe Biden is more lucid 😊
Wow this entire conversation was just purely satisfying. It scratched my itch. Thank you for speaking with a theoretical physicist and introducing me to Penrose.
I’ve been here for 17 minutes now and I still haven’t understood anything other than they’re all very pleased to meet each other…
We can't REALLY understand Einstein without sir Roger Penrose.... 92 years so sharp, unbelievable. amazing.
thanks, brilliant one .🙌❤️🌠
Only wish is to let him speak, and finish his thought. JP interupts all the time
What did u understand?
A fascinating conversation which seems to me to reveal more about the participants' thought process than the subject itself. Peterson continually pushes to abstract more concepts out of another, and Penrose continuously snaps him back to what is known and not known.
@Konstantin Dahlin this is true, in a way it shows a level of immaturity from Peterson, I don't mean that in a negative way, more of like a childlike curiosity. At the end of the day this is the fundamental difference between science and philosophy.
Bringing conversations like this to the masses is such a profoundly beautiful thing. Different people may disagree with aspects of your politics (I know I do,) but here it should be unequivocally clear to all that you're a positive force for humanity, and we're lucky to have you. This, your harvard lectures on youtube, your biblical series...you're doing truly fantastic work. Thank you.
@Michael Johnson You are correct about the his lecture tours and his action surrounding compelling speech. However, JP has recently engaged in plenty of political discourse especially regarding Canadian politics.
@Michael Johnson You should see him when he sits down with Rex Murphy. I would say those conversations are exclusively political.
Need to send this to people so they might have some insight to the thoughts/arguments with myself that run through my head late at night.
What I like a lot about Penrose is his originality and openness to playing with ideas
Roger Penrose is a living legend, and it's an amazing privilege to listen to him, so thank you for this conversation.
20:29 "The creative people use lower probability concepts and words in their approach." This is because in lower probability concepts and words convey more information in Information Theory, since information is defined as negative entropy. This means that there is less randomness, since entropy is basically randomness.
20:01 "Creative consciousness doesn't seem to be a random walk." Well, obviously because the less probable the idea, the less random it is, according to Information Theory. So, he understands "creativity", but he has to learn the basics of Information Theory/Cybernetics (and he should know cybernetics since it's being used extensively in psychology, and he also mentions it on one of his lectures).
@@psychcowboy1 Boulder... that says it in a single word.
@@psychcowboy1 that’s what creative people do. That exact point was touched on in the context of the conversation. Much of it is nonsense, but that’s any good conversation. Also I think there were times when Jordan was making a point that would be worth discussing but they missed each other. Partly because Jordan easily moved between levels of abstraction and also partly because Roger is less interested in meta questions about how advanced our understanding of the physical world may advance those conversations.
@@psychcowboy1 Im on my second run of this video and trying to find it, he talks absolute nonsense tangents imo. But so many people here think he's saying something amazing, can someone help me understand?
Just...no? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing; you're confusing entropy and differential entropy while acting like graduate level physics is child's play while making more sketchy inferences then Penrose would dare.
@@tommorgan7599 sense of what dr Peterson says is not "in the sense of providing information" but rather "in creating environment for prof Penrose to provide some information". Thus, the most relevant information provided by dr Peterson in this video - to me - is the verbal and nonverbal example of how to speak with other person in such a way you could understand what they're saying. It's some "meta" because it is information about how to obtain information. Foolish questions and listening to the aswer explaining why you are a fool is quite a good way to do this.
I'm so excited your discussing this, thank you for sharing your mind with the rest of us. You're positively changing the world in believe, and I hope to hear more every day!
He offered to donate his mind to medical science when he dies, but they declined.
Can you three get together again and do another ? You opened my mind up even more than I realized about many different things related to this universe....it's like sitting in class listening to a great mind ....loved this
I love Jordans profound curiosity for life experiences…consciousness, where the mind is and so on human behaviors
Well, he is a psychologist....
Yep.... you gotta be a smart dude, just to ask either of these guys a question! I've heard all my life that there are "no dumb questions!" That is the DUMBEST statement ever made!
Where are you from?
i disagree with "that is the dumbest statement ever made" what's dumb about that statement@@martyfoster7053
There is not enough of this stuff available to the masses, thanks for doing what you do!
Peterson has an enormous intellectual curiosity and a desire to extrapolate from one discipline to another, to synthesize different strands of thinking and so enrich his 'map of meaning', a cartography of the world. This makes him fascinating to listen to and explains a lot of his draw as a populariser of academe, and a scientific communicator par excellence. The trouble is, maths and physics are such deep, esoteric disciplines that - even for the very intelligent outsider - Peterson's worthy attempts to draw out the parallels he loves seem to strike Penrose as superficial or off-point. What happens when the ultimate specialist meets the ultimate generalist
Maybe because Peterson is often just blabbering with big words like you have in this comment 😅😅😅 whereas Penrose tries to express complicated ideas with the simplest language possible. They're two opposites
Exactly ! Brilliant :-)
@@jaroslavprucha9198 Just one opposite :-)
@@psychcowboy1 He is the king of circumlocution . He says less in a paragraph than Penrose says in a few words. But, what I decoded was deep, insightful and yet constantly changing subject which I think irritated Roger somewhat.
Great observation. Ha ma
Psilocybin, LSD, shrooms and ketamine are absolutely life changing substances that have so much potential to help people with mental health issues.
You can't overdose on mushrooms alone . You can definitely eat the wrong mushroom and get poisoning from that, but no one has ever died from psilocybin OD
@@vickiebeaver6843 I'll recommend you to a store I got some of psychedelic products Lsd , edibles cannabis DMT , mushrooms XTC , Xanax , vape pen and they're nice.
@@rhysreid9302How can I locate him? If he's on IG?❤
@@kathleenmcclenahan5701Yeah he's dr.jackshroomn🥰
@@juttaclemons5002 I really get happy anytime I see people talking about Dr jackshroom, he is the best All pure psychedelic and shrooms I get from him
Penrose is a gentleman as far as I can tell. It's great that there are top scientists like him
Now THIS is epic.
Almost.
nya
Great job Jordan! From my distance I could see complexity of the subject matter is that of profound depth. Once I realized this, it became easy to grant your awesome minds the patience of my attention and the effort of my focus.
Just wanted to tell you that you did a great job after asking the first question and probably seeing for yourself my opinion about the patience’s one should expect when exploring waters that are reserved for the deepest of thinkers and hungriest of seekers…. It was great how you went “into your inner child” and responded to him with shared excitement! So great man! This had the potential to be a tricky interview and you really showed some incredible interviewing skills!
So glad to see you are Ok and still churning out the ridiculous level of young men with a huge level of appreciation, love, and gratitude for newfound glory one can uncover in their lives.
Good bless u man. Hope your enjoying life, and the love of all the people you have helped engulfs you in a peaceful gratification. Thank I for illuminating ways to release some of the pain we creat by “not knowing how to do this thing called life” it would mean the world to know you too feel the peace of mind you have helped so much to distribute!
✌️♥️
Oh national treasure Dr.Penrose.Much appreciation and respect.
Dr Jordan gradually realizes how smart and intimidating the presense of this man is. He gradually adjusted the conversation from the colleague tone to being a good and engaging student. It takes a lot of humility and self awareness to do this on the spot on camera. Many healthy cognitive functions interacted to produce this. I would say Ti + Ne + Si + Fe stack.
I really wanted to understand something here but nope, not one word. 😮
uhuh, thought the same thing
also regarding this, it's super coincidential that there was a subsect of this conversation about intuition (Ti) and how it encompasses an ability to jump through layers of logic via pattern recognition
Wow, Roger Penrose at 90 sounds so incredibly sharp. Also well done JBP for preparing for this so thoroughly. Amazing conversation.
We live in a wonderful time when I and everyone else on earth can watch this beautiful discussion
At about the 20 min mark, an old Calvin and Hobbs comic popped into my thoughts. Calvin is in class and raises his hand. When the teacher calls on him he declares/ask "My brain is full, can I go home?" Amazing how precise and clear Sir Primrose is.
Penrose seems to be exercising every bit of physically conscious patience in this interview.
I'd see it the other way around. Jordan laid out some good thoughts and Penrose couldn't seem to get his head around the angle in which Jordan was approaching it. Penrose was speaking like a math equation and Jordan was speaking from the philosophical side and Penrose couldn't understand the intersection of the two. Jordan saying "I'm not understanding" is a polite way of saying "You aren't getting my point, please elaborate more"
@@OfLastingThunderWhich is another way of saying that Peterson was operating only within the very limited scope of his own understanding, intent on trying to demonstrate his own point of view,, rather than just asking open questions.
@gawa9254 the questions he asked were quite simple and straight forward. Penrose sounded as though he wanted to assert his intellect by "correcting" every question. You've met these people and this is what they sound like. It's annoying.
@@OfLastingThunderIt's of no consequence whether Peterson's questions are or are not simple. It's completely plausable to look dumbfounded when the questions you are receiving have little to do with what you are saying.
@@OfLastingThunderNo Penrose was getting annoyed because Jordan made it look like he had questions but he was actually talking alone about subjects that were far from the initial assessment. Penrose couldn't elaborate that way and it's obvious that you should humble down when you speak with someone like Penrose, as Penrose's IQ must at least double Jordan's. When it comes to consciousness, Penrose should have had more time to speak, as it's his domain. I really like Jordan's conferences about psychology and I agree with him most of the time by the way.
This is a topic I've spent countless hours pondering about. Thank you for this interview and asking these questions.
Such a great man, Sir Roger gave a talk at my university and I was lucky enough to get a signature from him
Did a Pen rose out of nothing for him to do the autograph? (not i'm not ashamed and never will be) :D
Rare when you see Jordan that engaged in an interview. You could see he was fascinated. Mostly out of his element but saw ways in which it applied to the things he does and cares about.
Perhaps Sir Penrose could map out the theoretical physics of Dr. Peterson’s conceptual verbosity. They both are coming from different perspectives of genius minds. The complexity of the discussion lies in that one is succinct in description, the other complex in description. Great interview!
Professor Penrose just WOW! One of my intelligence heroes and he is the first to admit "we just don't know!" I really like how he probes consciousness and knows it isn't what humans think it is and like quantum is so much more complex and strange.
🎯
Intelligence heroes? That's a new one, lol.
@@shawmafkhubba8406 yeah man I swear these are all bots talking about how "breathtakingly stunningly brilliant" this is and how we are "so lucky to be able to listen to these geniuses".
TH-cam is full of professors giving lectures and having discussions. This isn't rare or new or even very high quality
@@MarvinMonroe Agreed. If anything, what stood out about this interview was its poor quality. The interviewers are clearly lacking in both knowledge and competence in the subject matter that they'd intended to ask good, serious, intelligent questions about.
@@MarvinMonroe I agree when people say that about Peterson, but Penrose is one of the most distinguished individuals in his field of mathematics. He’s definitely somebody very special.
There was a fundamental misunderstanding between the reasoning and propositions between Sir Penrose and Jordan. This significantly impaired the initial discussion and the perception of the meaning of such propositions. It is necessary to fully grasp what "computational" might even mean in the simplest mathematical terms before even considering algorithmic thinking and to extend such a primordial form into questions of predicting the future and statistical phenomenon of math and physics is impossible. These two great men have shown why in some sense, social sciences and natural sciences are so disconnected and far from eachother and that it is too naive to draw conclusions about our behavior and cognitive structure from the fundamentals of logic. I had no idea we were this far behind and ofcourse I did not understand the propositions of Sir Penrose either but his borderline annoyance to the way these were taken as parts of a very different set of ideas.
Agreed. This misunderstanding (and Sir Penrose's apparent annoyance) made me a bit uncomfortable. I can't really say it's necessarily a bad thing though as I think the majority of this video's audience have a mindset and knowledge base closer to Dr. Peterson's. It certainly has made me aware how fuzzy my understanding of the term "computational" is.
I've got a bit of background in calculus and psychology, but it's not helping me here. Granted it was only a few years of each in university, but I think the problem might be that they seem to be having two different conversations or something. I've got no idea what they're talking about as of 21:44, and I've read Godel Escher Bach which I would think would be exactly what this is about.
And his description of Godel's theorem was super confusing to me. I'd phrase it more: "Any sufficiently complex set is incomplete". and "There are truths which cannot be expressed." i.e. "I am asleep".
Agreed
Agreed
The immense respect these interlocutors have for the process of discovery is revelatory. This is how great minds pursue a shared understanding of reality. The thinking world should pay attention.