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I am going to say it, demoman currently isn't as strong at launch but dangit; he is way to freaking good as it is rn. Demoman has two primaries, his grendae launcher is pretty good in offensive situations less so at defensive but it can hold its own; as well it's good for self defense too. Then you have a secondary weapon that is better than the primary weapon as it excells in offensive and defensive situations tenfold. The only thing I can say about stickers if a self defense situation is, they're a bit harder to use.
Something interesting is that in Meet the Demo you can actually see him intentionally shoot a pipe at the wall, it bounces and then hits a Pyro so that might be the only real evidence of this lost mechanic
To add insult to injury, the love and war update also added the original tide turner, which was out and away the best shield. Full turning control made the booties obsolete so everyone was a hybridknight, and full recharge on kill meant demo was the most mobile he's ever been. Combo it with the zatoichi and every kill fully heals you and gives you another charge. Absolutely ridiculous.
@@artifactU Forgot about that. It didn't just make the booties obsolete it almost supplanted the eyelander. Why bother with a slow snowball when you can have all the health and mobility you could ever need?
13:27 I like how you were having the classic awkward who gets the health pack moment with the other demo and then a med just walks by without healing him, peak med gameplay
@@6riffln64 as a medic main it boggles my mind to see this medic, with an unusual especially, look at 2 power classes (especially demomen) who are just 2 dozen feet away from the cart.. and he just... doesnt heal them... lmao. if we had a peek into his head it'd probably be the spilt milk from spongebob lmfao
@@SquimJim Recently, I've wondered if the Bisons large nerf was because a Valve employee who worked on other projects wheeled their desk in to help with MYM and they just thought the bison was a broken overpowered mess by how it was in the code. The more I think about it, the more its the only thing that makes sense.
@@SquimJim Not only they nerfed an already kind of bad gun SEVERAL TIMES IN A ROW, they also broke its projectile when they changed fire for pyro, meaning that giant pulse-beam projectile is now actually the size of a sand grain
Never forget the original after mym.complain from competitive was to rework it But the bigger complain was casuals wanting it to change back They did the bison now is just a half cooked mess without the multi hit bug and it's just a useless little thing
@TheBalkanJoker Oh, that guy…figured as much. Certainly not exclusive to TF2 videos though. I really don’t understand how his pfp hasn’t been forcefully changed. Especially since what it is displaying can be considered NSFW in some contexts.
@TheBalkanJokerwhen all else falls away, stickmaster remains. I fall in and out with this game and even 8 years after getting into this game I still see this man in the comments. Never forgetting the OG either. I think his name was Spookwagon? Might be wrong.
Man I remember the sticky spam era and how ubiquitous it was. There was basically no need to actually lay traps with demoman, it was so easy to air detonate that it completely overshadowed the grenade launchers since you could just spam a choke and detonate your bombs before a pyro could airblast, or an engineer could short circuit zap them. I think the reason why no one really complains about demo anymore is because each nerf he got never really made him notably worse in the hands of a good player, each change just raised the skill floor a little bit and effectively only nerfed the noob strats that made him less fun to play against.
I began playing TF2 a few weeks before the random damage patch hit, and going "This is like being a Pokemon in a battle but in a FPS" just from how damage numbers worked lmao
@@MeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowww Yes random shotgun spread definitely makes me have so much fun. Every time my medium range shot deals tickle damage instead of solid damage I think "wow, this is dynamic and wild!"
As someone who loves using the Scottish Resistance, I understandably am a bit biased when I say that the Sticky Launcher should be more defensive/trap based than an offensive primary weapon. I mean the fact that he basically had two primary weapons is perhaps the core of his need for balance. The Love and War change might have been harsh, but I still wonder what a world would look like in which Demos would actually have to get good with the grenade launcher as opposed to relying entirely on stickies.
I think you do have to get good at the grenade launcher to be anything more than passable at demo. There's a lot of things the modern stickybomb launcher can't really do - particularly when it comes to dealing with things (especially scouts, but also jumping soldiers, mini engies, spies) right in your face.
@@enn1924 They were considered really good back when the boots also gave a free speed boost. The boots getting nerfed is what killed that loadout, not the sticky nerfs.
I don't know why people want stickies to be used for traps more than offensively. Turning a corner and getting instagibbed is a lot more annoying than sticky spam imo
@@enn1924 Back before the booties were buffed, they didn't give +25 max hp so there was no point in running them if you weren't a demoknight. These days that actually is a perfectly viable loadout for demo.
The difference between the Sniper being overpowered and the Demoman being overpowered is that Sniper can kill you from any range if he can see you, while Demoman doesn't have to see you. Both need to actually hit you to do serious damage though, so they become infinitely scarier when put in the hands of someone that can actually land headshots or mid-air detonations over a hill. Also a brief note that the Stickybomb Launcher was initially Demo's primary weapon, which you can occasionally see in old gameplay footage. Not really a nerf to have them switched, but it makes sense since it's way stronger and more versatile than the Grenade Launcher that doesn't even have its Meet the Demoman rebound gimmick anymore. A second brief note, I remember being so happy that the Bushwacka could no longer crit, it was basically Sniper's Scotsman's Skullcutter where you get crits for hitting with Jarate, and then you have all that damage saved up to roll random crits. It was painful.
The sniper can POTENTIALLY kill you from any distance. In reality, most snipers will never be good enough to consistently kill you at extreme ranges. Meanwhile, literally anyone can sticky spam. Don’t believe me? Ask yourself this: have you played against more sticky spammers or problem snipers?
@@baguettetheweirdguy2529 I don't agree with that, there's plenty of cases where you can push up and counter a sniper, and at worst, he'll only kill one of you. That sniper who effortlessly clicks on peoples head isn't real if people are dedicated to stopping him. To put it like this: if you saw an Engineer setting up a sentry in the distance, what would you do? Would you say "Well, we can't do anything like that", and let him complete it? No. You'd go up there and stop him. You can do the same for snipers, but people have convinced everyone that each and every last sniper is some pro MLG player who never misses. That's not real.
@@luckyducky7819 just because something takes skill doesnt make it balanced, im tired of people being like oh but x takes skill so its completely balanced thats just not how balancing works. also all snipers are anoying even if inconsistently
@@luckyducky7819 just some random engi setting up without any teammates around? that doesnt seem likely. also if the engi is setting up theyve probably got a sentry so youve gotta worry about the engi & the sentry who can both kill you & thats assuming there is nobody else around. in both cases its alot less simple than you make it seem
As a player of the Xbox 360 tf2, I can notice the difference between the stickies of this version and the PC version (you literally don't need more than two stickies to kill half the classes)
I feel like the Sniper bots roaming around have taken a lot of heat off of Demos shoulders. Still I personally feel like his strength should be re-balanced more towards the pipes because the stickies are one of the easiest way to deal a ton of damage while also being arguably one of the easiest weapons to use in the whole game. Most TF2 players agree that the stickie launcher is the strongest weapon in the game and that Demo runs around wielding two primaries. Also ngl I just generally enjoy fighting pipes more than stickies because you can actually dodge one where the other is just a DPS test where the Demo usually wins due to stickies just taking less effort with their spamability but that's heavy personal bias.
Yeahhh stickies feel like a real primary as demo, while pipes feel like the secondary used in emergencies, such as scouts in your face, airborne enemies and that's it really.
Learn to use your WASD keys or learn Scout and Demo becomes much less of a problem. Most TF2 are really bad at the game and their input should be ignored
@@shadow50011scouts’re easy to kill or zone out with stickies. if you wanted to take out demos I’d recommend alternatives that don’t have to fight on their terms.
@@shadow50011 While the latter is true, it has nothing to do with Demoman objectively being the strongest class as of now. Learning Scout has nothing to do with it, it won't help reducing unavoidable damage.
ive found out that holding W into sticky spamming demos works out in your favor more often than you'd expect, they dont know what to do against the fearless maniacs. give it a few tries
Did you not hear the woe filled tale of the Irn Bru? You see, one Valve employee received a fair gift from across the seas. The gift was plain brown box, covered in drunken gibberish, and heavy to boot. The glass clank, and the office grew still. Finally, Gabe step forward and opened the box with his claymore. Inside was many bottles of a mystical drink made for the Scottish, by the Scottish, and they alone knew what went in it. Gabe held up a bottle to the light, and the green glow covered him. Under the gaze of his coworkers, did he open the bottle with his claymore and kneel. He drank the Irn Bru in accordance to what his Scottish friends told him. As the mixture wet his throat, he began to shake violently. A haze descended over him, and his sword raised to the sky. "NERF DEMOMAN" he cried. And so it was. All Irn Bru is banned from the offices of Valve, least they meet their end at the tip of Gabe's claymore.
"Gabe held up a bottle to the light, and the green glow covered him" That's how you know this story is fake- It's orange! The colour of rusty girders! Not old Copper!
2:32 i love how you said you "think" that video showed the whole explode on contact after one bounce on that medic when it also seems like the person who recorded the video also got hit by the contact explosion
Gotta love over the course of the game, demo gets various nerfs and people think it's unjustified (with some expections) and think he's useless, despite the fact his is still extremely strong. Actually now that I think about it that's a lot of people's reactions to weapon nerfs/reworks on weapons that perform too well, people just drop it and think it's bad when it's still good. An odd pattern over tf2's life span.
demo has a weeeeird skill curve. most of the time demos suck but once you start learning all the tricks he’s scary as hell, and the nerfs hurt beginners way more since they won’t know how to work around them.
Remember when the caber got nerfed and now people avoid it like it has a 50% damage vulnerability? I do. But I'm also smart enough to remember that it still does 400+ damage on a crit and can still one-hit light classes without one.
Saw some comments saying it was more annoying to die to a sticky trap than sticky spam. How exactly is it MORE frustrating to die to the sticky launcher being used the way it was INTENDED to be used (laying traps as seen in Meet The Demoman) versus someone just spamming air bursts with it? Are you sure you're not just upset someone outplayed you with a carefully laid trap in a doorway just because you couldn't see it? How exactly is dealing with constant spam more respectable?
@@Soapromancer Dying to a hidden stickytrap is like being backstabbed by a spy that genuinely fooled you with their disguise. It makes you go 'Man, I'm stupid.' instead of being angry at them, especially if it happens more than once during the same match.
The airbursts have to be aimed and you can dodge the slowest projectile in the game. Turning a corner and instantly dying on the other hand is just stupid, irregardless whether that's how valve intended for it to be used or not Also, see the developer commentary. The stickybomb launcher was meant to be good for both offense and defense, so if someone kills you with sticky spam "that's how it was intended to be used" Does knowing the fact that sticky spam is intentional make it less frustrating for you, now ?
@@elfascisto6549 You're argument is that air bursts require skill while trap laying does not; which is false. When Valve said the sticky launcher can be used offensively, they meant by destroying engineer nests and locking off objectives during an attack; not spamming it like it was the stock weapon. If they intended to have it been used as a spam weapon, Valve wouldn't have nerfed the damage air bursts shots do. You dying to a trap you didn't see is an ego problem, not a game problem. It's especially obvious since you called it "stupid regardless of intention".
2:11 Do you see this nerf? Look at the date. It is 16 years ago. I know that very well, since I was born that day. I don’t know how this game reached me, but it has. And it’s fun to see all that it did and made people do. It’s still fun all this time later, even for people who were born late.
8:30 I mean I get why they wrote this. Back then you couldn't even move your buildings so it was basically game over for an engineer. (it still is tbh)
Demoman isn't really op because he does have actual weaknesses. He's the squishiest power class despite being the strongest, he's the strongest overall class at medium range but ineffective at close ranges (unless demoknight), he does have exploitable achilles heels despite his tendency to stomp the entire frontline. This makes him incredibly strong, but not op.
and yet demo players have convinced themselves that soldier is the one who gets way too much value for way too little effort, not to even mention pyro … mind-boggling
Learning how to airblast perfectly will not take much of time as getting good as demoman.At the same time airblast can indeed shut off pipes completely as well if ur good enough that is.Stickies i will say kinda counters pyro not entirely as pyro can break the stickies with his secondaries which is good counter for the demos counter and airblast the traps.
He is a group killer class and in tf2 teams are on groups most of time so yes he can kill everyone at the same time but his counters are harsh as well he is overpowered for his stickies but a good scout can easily dominate a demo player especially if the scout knows what he is doing demo has counter to that by staying with the team.But as i type this end of the day the skill of each player in different teams matter most after all if everyone was good no one would complain but sniper is exception.
@@lander_Eversor no class should be a "group killer", that is definition of overpowered. If the class meant to do damage on a huge radius then it ahould be more of a support damage than one that can overpower other classes in combat. Also a good demo can defeat a good scout, especially with loch n load, loose cannon and quickbombs, demoman has no real counters as sticky spam to floor can counter chasig pyro + airblast isn't always work properly against them, and hitting scout isn't as hard people make it out to be, especially considering scout must get close in order to do damage.
@@MaxRideWizardLord Nah. Demoman has plenty of exploitable weaknesses and his strengths aren’t through the roof. Demoman being able to teamwipe is really common, especially compared to other classes or even Soldier (who I have the most hours in). It’s also not like Demoman just beats 2 classes so hard they may as well stay in spawn, while also having his “counters” fail depending on where he is and can basically make it so that 4 of the 9 classes unplayable with one energyball.
An interesting bug is the aces high (and some times nuts and bolts) unusual effect having random orbit spans from the dead center of the head to going about a heavy's width radius and it varies at random from those 2.
it's funny to me that despite being the most nerfed class in the game, demoman can still be considered as one of the most powerful classes in the game, i guess having two primary weapons by default will do that to ya
Something that is worth thinking about is that modern map design is significantly more open and less chokey. Demo on dustbowl is still stupid but demo on upward or swiftwater is good but manageable.
@@TKsh1 not really. It's that a lot of maps are designed very poorly. Even if you halved his damage and tripled the time it takes to reach full charge... on maps like whutville he'd still be too strong.
It also didn't used to have general damage vulnerability when active. Instead it originally had a passive 20% fire vulnerability. Cause you know, Sniper is always letting Pyro's get close to him.
It's really not the bushwacka that's broken, if you try using it with the other minicrit weapon, the cleaner's carbine, it's a lot weaker as a weapon and the damage vulnerability matters a whole lot. It's still powerful, but it's a pretty balanced risk/reward Jarate on the other hand has the huge splash box (not even a sphere lol), minicrits against literally everyone who was in it so you win a fight for free, and the ability to extinguish on a very fast timer. So it just pushes the bushwacka over the edge on top of its already insane potential
I've always thought the sticky bomb launcher was more annoying than the sniper's rifle. The Demo can shoot around corners with it with ease, and even hold entire hallways just by using the stickies. There's a reason people consider it his actual primary weapon. Of course, a coordinated team beats sticky spam, but a coordinated team also beats a problem sniper. Yet people seem to forget that with the sniper, so I won't acknowledge that with the demo.
The problem with Sniper compared to Demo is that he can shut off whole sightlines whereas Demo is more limited, also while demo is better at longer ranges to compared to other classes he won't be able to do much dmg and you can still approach him head on if he gets to comfortable, against Sniper you can only sneak or flank him, the damage he does on long range is too oppressive to fight him unless you're another Sniper and that why a lot of are having problems with Sniper, you can't find back unlike with demo where you have more options, TF2 is more fun when fighting at close range
@@baguettetheweirdguy2529 I explained it to you in my last comment, so this time I'll just say I disagree. Both are countered by adequate teamplay, but one has everyone convinced they can't do anything while the other is demoman. That pro sniper who never misses isn't real. You know, Overwatch is another game that suffers from people who overestimates the strength of the sniper. I think its just a player perception issue.
@@baguettetheweirdguy2529 demo cant shut off sightlines but he definitely can just shut off objectives by just sticky trapping it and effectively pause the game. i think the only reason why people dont hate demo is because you can shoot his stickies so you do actually interact a little more with him, ignoring the fact that he can just spam more stickies while you're busy trying to deal with the past ones. i've gotten a ton of kills from just brainlessly spamming onto a cart or point. hes also like the 2nd best class at longer ranges with grenades that deal 100 no matter where you are so i wouldnt say he cant do much damage there.
A grenade launcher with rollers that explode on touch would be an interesting mechanic. The grenades could be round and bouncy. Downside would probably be something like less damage and lower clip size.
@@NickMorales-wy3zh dunno about you, but for me personally "this weapon takes much less skill to aim but it does less damage" isn't what i would call a cool idea
Best way to describe demo now, he is completely overpowered when put into the hands of demomain who really skilled at him, and hes completely underpowered when joze.gonzalez2007 picks him and keeps shooting the stickies at his own feet.
Correct differrent player in teams with varying skill level is what matter most.Except sniper for now i personally think even on good team vs good team fights he can dominate the round cause a good team will try their best to protect a sniper but the other good team would try their best to push while having the sniper killed in some way possible.
God I remember the Old Demoman. He destroyed not just Sentries but stopped Ubers, Soldiers and even his counter (Scout) had barely a chance due to how much damage he did despite the scouts mobility. Although now I feel like Demo is in a rather good spot. Still very strong when ya put the effort in Although the Bounce after hitting a wall was never seen or never registered
People might not be inclined to say he's OP because you just dont see as many crazy good stock demos as other classes like Scout, Soldier, Sniper, and Spy
The game is pretty balanced rn imo. Sniper is boring/frustrating to play against though. Medic/heavy would probably need nerfed if sniper sucked more though.
For the bouncing pipe beta thingy you can see it in meet the Demo when he uses it on a Pyro (Credit to Great Blue for mentioning this in his video " what if TF2 was like the trailers")
Some context for the patch notes shown at 3:07; before this update, dropped weapons did count as ammo but the ammo values given were not consistently half your total ammo. It was instead based on 1. the the primary weapon of the class you picked up for ammo replenishment 2. how much ammo they had on that weapon when picked up (defaulting to the Secondary's amount if the primary was out of ammo from what i understand and 4-5 ammo if they have none) and 3. whether you shared any weapons with that class. This change was technically a buff to heavy, pyro and medic as the only way to fully replenish their primary ammo was to pick up a near full minigun, flamethrower or syringe gun and a nerf to everybody else. With the Demoman's reserve ammo being 30 for the GL if he killed a player who's gun had 30 reserve ammo it would fully refill his reserves.
Actually, Shounic did a video where he went back in time to the leaked TF2 beta. In that video, you can see him "recreate" that one scene with Pyro from Meet the Demoman
Sticky Launcher at the moment feels more like the real primary to Demoman, with the Grenade Launcher feeling like the secondary. Kinda sad the damage rampup never went through for them as that did make the stickies feel more like a secondary.
This was always the case, they swapped it in development because it wasn't clear to new players. Pipes are meant to be used primarily for self-defense when you get rushed
@@shadow50011 Not necessarily, you can sticky jump to safety. Can also use pipes aggressively, and if anything, stickies are meant to be used defensively by setting sticky traps.
@@realchiknuggets stickies are meant to be used both offensively and defensively, the thing about "stickies were only meant to be used for traps" contradicts developer commentsry
I am convinced that sniper was supposed to be the next class to get core rework. but after MYM flopped and JI flopped . we lost anyone who cared to work on tf2. so sniper will not be changed sadly.
@@fantastikboom1094 you could try a bunch of things, bullet become very fast moving projectiles, laser when building up a charge like in mvm, rework the sniper rifles it self to have a magazine/individual round based reloads, making adsing have inerta so you would be a bit more sluggish on flick shots. here's a bunch of ideas that might or might not be needed. i'd support allowing uncharged headshots to mini-crit too as a buff.
@@Underqualified_Gunman while I like these changes as a scout. I think one major change I would like to see is probably a lowered ammo count. Maybe not as drastic as half ammo but definitely should be less than 25.
@@Underqualified_Gunman true it probably just flew over my head. I would like to see an overall sniper change that allows the bushwaka piss combo to be nerfed. Maybe remove the all mini-crits are crits stat?
1:35 Slight correction. The Xbox 360 version of The Orange Box TF2 also shipped with 6 pipes but eventually got patched to 4. You can even see this yourself if you delete the cache/data and boot up the game without internet.
Slightly off topic but I love the bomb king in paladins, they made a character around the sticky bomb launcher, paladins was originally designed to be a combination of smite and tf2 but overwatched released first and some higher ups made them copy overwatch a bunch more than they ment to
Sniper is only OP if the person playing as sniper is good. Sniper is also OP depending on loadout, most snipers run jarate bushwacka for garunteed melee crits (jarate grants mini crits, and bushwacka crits on minicrits)
I think it was Shounic who went rummaging through the beta's of TF2 and uploaded crystal clear footage of a pipe hitting a wall and then exploding upon hitting an enemy
I've been told by the HONORABLE SquimJim to keep an eye out for a suspicious character known only as the wild "Salt God"! I've got my eyes peeled out for them!
I lowkey still thought that Demo was one, if not the most overpowered class in the game alongside Sniper, in many ways the Demo is just a straight up better Soldier in almost every aspect outside of just not having optional shotguns (for those camping short circuit engies) and buffing backpacks. Soldier has a falloff mechanic that never made sense to me where his rocket damage is based out of how far the player is from the target, going from full damage by basically being face to face with someone, to mere tickles by having the target being really far away... like, shouldn't it be the opposite way? you know, reward long accurate shots instead of punishing you for it? and Demo doesn't have any of that, you hit someone face to face or across the map, you'll most likely instakill a light class, and if they're close then it's even worse. You can somehow dodge Soldiers if you know what you're doing, but the Demo's grenade launcher having that quirk of having the grenades roll around reward missing shots instead of punishing you for it, say, a Demo plants stickies in front of him and now he's using his grenade launcher against you, if he misses, those grenades are right behind you in case you retreat, and if you do, you're dead, if you try to get closer for better shots, you're dead, if you stay in place, you'll receive more stickies and die before you had the chance to escape. Oh and don't get me started with a pocketed Demo, because pocketed Soldiers and Heavies have a lot of weaknesses that still allow for them to be killed, but a pocketed Demo fully removes the Demo's only weakness, his lack of HP regen, and with that you got a 2 men army that are capable of wiping out entire TEAMS by themselves.
he is, people just don't like to admit that the class who can kill everyone including his own counter by aiming in someone's general direction is overpowered
@@mr.monkey354 Yeah pretty much this, like I say, he's just a better Soldier since he does exactly the same but without any of the downsides. There's a reason why the Lonch got nerfed after all, it was a better Direct hit in every aspect, and it could easily overshadow every soldier main.
i'm fairly certain the bit about demo's pipes doing more damage when you aim at someone's feet is still listed as one of the tips in the loading screens, albeit for soldier's rockets instead. while yes, it is a good strategy to knock people around and give them less control, it realistically shouldn't do less damage, yet it does. it's weird that a feature removed almost a decade ago for one class still exists for another. it's already common practice to shoot at people's feet as a soldier anyway, it's not like removing this handicap would actually alter the game in a way that makes him totally unbalanced, especially when the direct hit rewards you for sending enemies flying in the air and landing... well, a direct hit on them. the only flaw i can actually think of when removing that mechanic is the direct hit being pushed even more to the side compared to stock since airshotting with anything other than direct hit isn't entirely worthless now, but shooting someone on the ground or midair still entirely relies on you actually hitting that shot. of any possible flaw that could come from a change like this, it'd still wouldn't be nearly as OP or unbalanced as something like splash damage doing the same amount as a direct hit, or no damage falloff for any weapon like in TFC
People say “the problem with Sniper is that he was never intended for players to play 1000 hours on.” When Demoman has been receiving nerfs based on the growing and more realized skill of the players over the games time. Sniper needs a nerf like yesterday!
@@youtubeuniversity3638 It's not a contradiction, but I think that the sentiment "...Sniper [...] was never intended for players to play 1000 hours on," implies that Valve shouldn't be expected to update their games balance based on the growing playerbases abilities. I feel that A) we should absolutely hold Valve up to that standard even if they don't hold it themselves if they keep making money off the game and B) that they clearly have done it before with a different class but have not with the Sniper.
There was this one tf2 fan game I played where they "balanced" sniper by giving him one shot in the clip, 120 damage quick scopes and I don't remember whatelse.
I remember the 2014 nerf, so many Demomains cried the class was worthless now. (Same people that used bootlegger, and only Stickybombs as their only damage source). Realistically I think they folded too quick on nerfing the stickybomb, it's clear they don't want people to be using it as an effective offensive tool. So my suggestion honestly; they should of started by simply making it only begin arming itself once 'stuck' or after 3 seconds of air time (for those weird moving platforms). With that nerf, you can still use it offensively. Damage is very much untouched (120 max uncritted). Except now there's a window for better counterplay around sheer spam.
typically peopel weight the strength sentiment while aggregating (ex. adding a 1.5x for the most extreme options) to get a more accurate demographic impression
I would argue that, now days, the most broken or "overpowered" thing about Demoman is the Eyelander. Actually, most "killstreak effect" or "snowball effect" weapons have this problem (excluding the Air Strike). I don't particularly remember Demoman being an op class even in the glory days of the Loch N' Load. Don't get me wrong, it was really good in the hands of a veteran, but it was not really as brainless as sticky spamming.
Just a correction, pipes would always 2 hit soldiers. The damage didn't used to be random, but used to be based on how much of the hitbox was in the explosion, larger classes like sollie and heavy would reliably take more. The 100 damage thing was a pretty significant nerf, the most significant nerf the demoman ever took in fact, as it removed the ability for the pipes to one shot scouts.
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Thanks lad
Bro Shounic has good footage of the beta.
I am going to say it, demoman currently isn't as strong at launch but dangit; he is way to freaking good as it is rn. Demoman has two primaries, his grendae launcher is pretty good in offensive situations less so at defensive but it can hold its own; as well it's good for self defense too. Then you have a secondary weapon that is better than the primary weapon as it excells in offensive and defensive situations tenfold. The only thing I can say about stickers if a self defense situation is, they're a bit harder to use.
Vid looks great man, keep it up!
Also funny self-ragdoll go brrrr
Something interesting is that in Meet the Demo you can actually see him intentionally shoot a pipe at the wall, it bounces and then hits a Pyro so that might be the only real evidence of this lost mechanic
it was in the tf2 beta but got cut because of balence
Shounic has a video showing that Demo’s pills would explode on contact even if they bounded off a wall or rolled on the ground
@@MarBL23563 yes I'm aware, I'm just pointing it out because he said it patch notes removed it but had little documented evidence of its existence
i dont understand, cant you shoot a pipe at a wall and hit somebody behind you ingame today?
@@ALouisae Nope. Once a pipe hits a surface, it loses the ability to explode on contact. It will only explode after a timer instead.
What makes _me_ a good Demoman? WELL IF I WAS A *BAD* DEMOMAN, I WOULDN'T BE THE MOST NERFED CLASS IN THE GAME, WOULD I!?
What makes _me_ a bad Demoman? WELL *DIES TO OWN CRIT ROLLER*
one explosion on contact, 180 max ramp-up sticky, one mid air sticky, AND (one shots a scout) KABLUE-WEE
@@Leonardo-zt3kf Nicely done
To add insult to injury, the love and war update also added the original tide turner, which was out and away the best shield. Full turning control made the booties obsolete so everyone was a hybridknight, and full recharge on kill meant demo was the most mobile he's ever been. Combo it with the zatoichi and every kill fully heals you and gives you another charge. Absolutely ridiculous.
Yeah wasn't that called like pingpong demo
Where he would just kill one guy
And bounce to the next one
also iirc the zatoichi could random crit
@@artifactU Forgot about that. It didn't just make the booties obsolete it almost supplanted the eyelander. Why bother with a slow snowball when you can have all the health and mobility you could ever need?
Someone needs to host a server with the OG Tide Turner and gather all the Demoknight mains, so we can get some insane footage
@@maskofthedragon No.
1:31
"in the transition from demoman to fullgameman..."
that was actually so clever oml
Yeah
took me a sec to realize, but damn that is perfect
I SPECIFICALLY remember during the love and war update people calling valve racist for nerfing demomans stickys 😂😂😂
Knowing TF2 that sounds like they were facetious lol
@@bmac4 most likely
Lmao really?
everything is racist nowadays
Twitter moment
13:27 I like how you were having the classic awkward who gets the health pack moment with the other demo and then a med just walks by without healing him, peak med gameplay
omg lmao
lol thats literally me (videogames2003)
@@6riffln64 as a medic main it boggles my mind to see this medic, with an unusual especially, look at 2 power classes (especially demomen) who are just 2 dozen feet away from the cart.. and he just... doesnt heal them... lmao. if we had a peek into his head it'd probably be the spilt milk from spongebob lmfao
actually the most infamous nerf of TF2 is the Rightous Bison. RIP brave little raygun
I genuinely think that's number 2. What a weird and out of nowhere nerf.
@@SquimJim Recently, I've wondered if the Bisons large nerf was because a Valve employee who worked on other projects wheeled their desk in to help with MYM and they just thought the bison was a broken overpowered mess by how it was in the code. The more I think about it, the more its the only thing that makes sense.
the bison still goes hard in MvM, especially against tanks
@@SquimJim Not only they nerfed an already kind of bad gun SEVERAL TIMES IN A ROW, they also broke its projectile when they changed fire for pyro, meaning that giant pulse-beam projectile is now actually the size of a sand grain
Never forget the original after mym.complain from competitive was to rework it
But the bigger complain was casuals wanting it to change back
They did the bison now is just a half cooked mess without the multi hit bug and it's just a useless little thing
If Demoman didn't lose his eye, then he would be even more powerful than he currently is and was previously
If only he wasn’t cursed.
@TheBalkanJokerI have seen a lot of strange pfp’s in comment sections. Who exactly are you referring to?
@TheBalkanJoker Oh, that guy…figured as much. Certainly not exclusive to TF2 videos though. I really don’t understand how his pfp hasn’t been forcefully changed. Especially since what it is displaying can be considered NSFW in some contexts.
@TheBalkanJokerwhen all else falls away, stickmaster remains. I fall in and out with this game and even 8 years after getting into this game I still see this man in the comments.
Never forgetting the OG either. I think his name was Spookwagon? Might be wrong.
YOU
Man I remember the sticky spam era and how ubiquitous it was. There was basically no need to actually lay traps with demoman, it was so easy to air detonate that it completely overshadowed the grenade launchers since you could just spam a choke and detonate your bombs before a pyro could airblast, or an engineer could short circuit zap them. I think the reason why no one really complains about demo anymore is because each nerf he got never really made him notably worse in the hands of a good player, each change just raised the skill floor a little bit and effectively only nerfed the noob strats that made him less fun to play against.
that is lowering the skill floor, not raising it
@@tommihommi1 Think they meant the required skill floor, not the balance skill floor. 2 kinds of skill floors to work with.
I began playing TF2 a few weeks before the random damage patch hit, and going "This is like being a Pokemon in a battle but in a FPS" just from how damage numbers worked lmao
It was a more fun time. Before the competitive trend demanded to make the game as static and stale as possible.
@@MeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowww Yes random shotgun spread definitely makes me have so much fun. Every time my medium range shot deals tickle damage instead of solid damage I think "wow, this is dynamic and wild!"
@@MeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowww Random anything is not fun.
@@ghoulbuster1Randomly teleporting bread is unfun?
crits are fun.
I remember when Pyro was the "op" class and friendlies were the "cause of death of the game".
Remember GEWP?
I still hear those all the time tbh
And nothing has changed.
Calling pyro op is insane, who tf genuinely believes that
1:50
Le Gasp
You mean to say that a Demo that actually uses his grenade launcher correctly is LOST MEDIA!!!!!!!
God, melee weapons somtimes needing three hits to kill was such a cause for rage on ps3
As someone who loves using the Scottish Resistance, I understandably am a bit biased when I say that the Sticky Launcher should be more defensive/trap based than an offensive primary weapon.
I mean the fact that he basically had two primary weapons is perhaps the core of his need for balance. The Love and War change might have been harsh, but I still wonder what a world would look like in which Demos would actually have to get good with the grenade launcher as opposed to relying entirely on stickies.
I think you do have to get good at the grenade launcher to be anything more than passable at demo. There's a lot of things the modern stickybomb launcher can't really do - particularly when it comes to dealing with things (especially scouts, but also jumping soldiers, mini engies, spies) right in your face.
If you could entirely rely on stickies only then stickies + boots would be the meta
@@enn1924 They were considered really good back when the boots also gave a free speed boost. The boots getting nerfed is what killed that loadout, not the sticky nerfs.
I don't know why people want stickies to be used for traps more than offensively. Turning a corner and getting instagibbed is a lot more annoying than sticky spam imo
@@enn1924 Back before the booties were buffed, they didn't give +25 max hp so there was no point in running them if you weren't a demoknight. These days that actually is a perfectly viable loadout for demo.
The difference between the Sniper being overpowered and the Demoman being overpowered is that Sniper can kill you from any range if he can see you, while Demoman doesn't have to see you. Both need to actually hit you to do serious damage though, so they become infinitely scarier when put in the hands of someone that can actually land headshots or mid-air detonations over a hill.
Also a brief note that the Stickybomb Launcher was initially Demo's primary weapon, which you can occasionally see in old gameplay footage. Not really a nerf to have them switched, but it makes sense since it's way stronger and more versatile than the Grenade Launcher that doesn't even have its Meet the Demoman rebound gimmick anymore.
A second brief note, I remember being so happy that the Bushwacka could no longer crit, it was basically Sniper's Scotsman's Skullcutter where you get crits for hitting with Jarate, and then you have all that damage saved up to roll random crits. It was painful.
The sniper can POTENTIALLY kill you from any distance. In reality, most snipers will never be good enough to consistently kill you at extreme ranges. Meanwhile, literally anyone can sticky spam.
Don’t believe me? Ask yourself this: have you played against more sticky spammers or problem snipers?
@@luckyducky7819 You can fight back against Sticky spammers, you can't against problematic Snipers
@@baguettetheweirdguy2529 I don't agree with that, there's plenty of cases where you can push up and counter a sniper, and at worst, he'll only kill one of you. That sniper who effortlessly clicks on peoples head isn't real if people are dedicated to stopping him.
To put it like this: if you saw an Engineer setting up a sentry in the distance, what would you do? Would you say "Well, we can't do anything like that", and let him complete it? No. You'd go up there and stop him. You can do the same for snipers, but people have convinced everyone that each and every last sniper is some pro MLG player who never misses. That's not real.
@@luckyducky7819 just because something takes skill doesnt make it balanced, im tired of people being like oh but x takes skill so its completely balanced thats just not how balancing works. also all snipers are anoying even if inconsistently
@@luckyducky7819 just some random engi setting up without any teammates around? that doesnt seem likely. also if the engi is setting up theyve probably got a sentry so youve gotta worry about the engi & the sentry who can both kill you & thats assuming there is nobody else around. in both cases its alot less simple than you make it seem
Comparing the sticky bomb launcher and scottish resistance with stats really shows how much those +0.8 seconds matter
I love the scottish resistance man, but it really hurts to get rushed when you don't have traps set up.
As a player of the Xbox 360 tf2, I can notice the difference between the stickies of this version and the PC version
(you literally don't need more than two stickies to kill half the classes)
The “winbomb” era
I hear if you play demoman while drunk you ascend to a higher level of existence
Challenge accepted! 😉 👍 🍺
Playing Demoman drunk is genuinely easier than sober, you get so unpredictable, that the enemy has a hard time dodging your bombs
That’s only if you realize that each sticky is a trap
I feel like the Sniper bots roaming around have taken a lot of heat off of Demos shoulders.
Still I personally feel like his strength should be re-balanced more towards the pipes because the stickies are one of the easiest way to deal a ton of damage while also being arguably one of the easiest weapons to use in the whole game.
Most TF2 players agree that the stickie launcher is the strongest weapon in the game and that Demo runs around wielding two primaries.
Also ngl I just generally enjoy fighting pipes more than stickies because you can actually dodge one where the other is just a DPS test where the Demo usually wins due to stickies just taking less effort with their spamability but that's heavy personal bias.
Yeahhh stickies feel like a real primary as demo, while pipes feel like the secondary used in emergencies, such as scouts in your face, airborne enemies and that's it really.
Learn to use your WASD keys or learn Scout and Demo becomes much less of a problem. Most TF2 are really bad at the game and their input should be ignored
@@shadow50011scouts’re easy to kill or zone out with stickies. if you wanted to take out demos I’d recommend alternatives that don’t have to fight on their terms.
@@shadow50011 While the latter is true, it has nothing to do with Demoman objectively being the strongest class as of now.
Learning Scout has nothing to do with it, it won't help reducing unavoidable damage.
ive found out that holding W into sticky spamming demos works out in your favor more often than you'd expect, they dont know what to do against the fearless maniacs. give it a few tries
It was me Squim. I nerfed Demoman 500 Times.
It was me Barry
Now do sniper
I did it like this
@@bruhbruh-us6gl Well i told the Plant Pot to do that 12 years ago but he still has not
@@Jacy-dx6dx remember when you were making out with Scout's mom and you came right as she touched your leg? It was me, Red Spy
"Couldn't you see the bloody bombs?!?"
pipes exploding on contact after bouncing is also seen in meet the demoman where he ricochets a grenade on a wall and it hits a pyro and explodes
That isn’t in game footage, you know, an actual casual match
Did you not hear the woe filled tale of the Irn Bru?
You see, one Valve employee received a fair gift from across the seas. The gift was plain brown box, covered in drunken gibberish, and heavy to boot. The glass clank, and the office grew still. Finally, Gabe step forward and opened the box with his claymore. Inside was many bottles of a mystical drink made for the Scottish, by the Scottish, and they alone knew what went in it. Gabe held up a bottle to the light, and the green glow covered him. Under the gaze of his coworkers, did he open the bottle with his claymore and kneel. He drank the Irn Bru in accordance to what his Scottish friends told him. As the mixture wet his throat, he began to shake violently. A haze descended over him, and his sword raised to the sky. "NERF DEMOMAN" he cried.
And so it was. All Irn Bru is banned from the offices of Valve, least they meet their end at the tip of Gabe's claymore.
"Gabe held up a bottle to the light, and the green glow covered him"
That's how you know this story is fake- It's orange! The colour of rusty girders! Not old Copper!
@@rubywest5166 I don't drink Irn Bru, and have never seen it before.
if you ever get to try it, try and get the old recipe before the sugar tax fucked it
2:32 i love how you said you "think" that video showed the whole explode on contact after one bounce on that medic when it also seems like the person who recorded the video also got hit by the contact explosion
Demoman also has no unusual miscs and the least amount of cosmetics, especially shirt and pants.
Why does Valve hate Demoman so much? 😭
Quickswitch it up, bro :^)
Cosmetic discrimination
Valve is racist confirmed
Good, stop the cosmetics lmao
I think he has some of the best looking cosmetics to compensate tho
Gotta love over the course of the game, demo gets various nerfs and people think it's unjustified (with some expections) and think he's useless, despite the fact his is still extremely strong. Actually now that I think about it that's a lot of people's reactions to weapon nerfs/reworks on weapons that perform too well, people just drop it and think it's bad when it's still good. An odd pattern over tf2's life span.
Callback to when Gun Mettle dropped and everyone thought the Wrangler was dogshit due to its nerf despite still functioning the same as it does now.
I am unaware of that lmfao
demo has a weeeeird skill curve. most of the time demos suck but once you start learning all the tricks he’s scary as hell, and the nerfs hurt beginners way more since they won’t know how to work around them.
"This weapon was nerfed 0.00000000000001% it's now unusable, game is unplayable uninstalling now pls fix Valve"
Remember when the caber got nerfed and now people avoid it like it has a 50% damage vulnerability?
I do.
But I'm also smart enough to remember that it still does 400+ damage on a crit and can still one-hit light classes without one.
Saw some comments saying it was more annoying to die to a sticky trap than sticky spam.
How exactly is it MORE frustrating to die to the sticky launcher being used the way it was INTENDED to be used (laying traps as seen in Meet The Demoman) versus someone just spamming air bursts with it?
Are you sure you're not just upset someone outplayed you with a carefully laid trap in a doorway just because you couldn't see it? How exactly is dealing with constant spam more respectable?
If I die to a trap I'm just like "how did I miss that"
@@Soapromancer Dying to a hidden stickytrap is like being backstabbed by a spy that genuinely fooled you with their disguise. It makes you go 'Man, I'm stupid.' instead of being angry at them, especially if it happens more than once during the same match.
The airbursts have to be aimed and you can dodge the slowest projectile in the game. Turning a corner and instantly dying on the other hand is just stupid, irregardless whether that's how valve intended for it to be used or not
Also, see the developer commentary. The stickybomb launcher was meant to be good for both offense and defense, so if someone kills you with sticky spam "that's how it was intended to be used"
Does knowing the fact that sticky spam is intentional make it less frustrating for you, now ?
@@elfascisto6549 You're argument is that air bursts require skill while trap laying does not; which is false. When Valve said the sticky launcher can be used offensively, they meant by destroying engineer nests and locking off objectives during an attack; not spamming it like it was the stock weapon. If they intended to have it been used as a spam weapon, Valve wouldn't have nerfed the damage air bursts shots do.
You dying to a trap you didn't see is an ego problem, not a game problem. It's especially obvious since you called it "stupid regardless of intention".
2:11 Do you see this nerf? Look at the date. It is 16 years ago. I know that very well, since I was born that day. I don’t know how this game reached me, but it has. And it’s fun to see all that it did and made people do. It’s still fun all this time later, even for people who were born late.
8:30 I mean I get why they wrote this. Back then you couldn't even move your buildings so it was basically game over for an engineer. (it still is tbh)
Demoman isn't really op because he does have actual weaknesses. He's the squishiest power class despite being the strongest, he's the strongest overall class at medium range but ineffective at close ranges (unless demoknight), he does have exploitable achilles heels despite his tendency to stomp the entire frontline.
This makes him incredibly strong, but not op.
And after all these nerfs, demoman is still overpowered.
and yet demo players have convinced themselves that soldier is the one who gets way too much value for way too little effort, not to even mention pyro … mind-boggling
Learning how to airblast perfectly will not take much of time as getting good as demoman.At the same time airblast can indeed shut off pipes completely as well if ur good enough that is.Stickies i will say kinda counters pyro not entirely as pyro can break the stickies with his secondaries which is good counter for the demos counter and airblast the traps.
He is a group killer class and in tf2 teams are on groups most of time so yes he can kill everyone at the same time but his counters are harsh as well he is overpowered for his stickies but a good scout can easily dominate a demo player especially if the scout knows what he is doing demo has counter to that by staying with the team.But as i type this end of the day the skill of each player in different teams matter most after all if everyone was good no one would complain but sniper is exception.
@@lander_Eversor no class should be a "group killer", that is definition of overpowered. If the class meant to do damage on a huge radius then it ahould be more of a support damage than one that can overpower other classes in combat. Also a good demo can defeat a good scout, especially with loch n load, loose cannon and quickbombs, demoman has no real counters as sticky spam to floor can counter chasig pyro + airblast isn't always work properly against them, and hitting scout isn't as hard people make it out to be, especially considering scout must get close in order to do damage.
@@MaxRideWizardLord Nah.
Demoman has plenty of exploitable weaknesses and his strengths aren’t through the roof. Demoman being able to teamwipe is really common, especially compared to other classes or even Soldier (who I have the most hours in).
It’s also not like Demoman just beats 2 classes so hard they may as well stay in spawn, while also having his “counters” fail depending on where he is and can basically make it so that 4 of the 9 classes unplayable with one energyball.
An interesting bug is the aces high (and some times nuts and bolts) unusual effect having random orbit spans from the dead center of the head to going about a heavy's width radius and it varies at random from those 2.
it's funny to me that despite being the most nerfed class in the game, demoman can still be considered as one of the most powerful classes in the game, i guess having two primary weapons by default will do that to ya
Its the damage class, so long you hit your shots everything goes down
that thumbnail might be the single coolest piece of tf2 artwork ive EVER seen
Something that is worth thinking about is that modern map design is significantly more open and less chokey. Demo on dustbowl is still stupid but demo on upward or swiftwater is good but manageable.
its crazy to me how the buschwacka was allowed to random crit. the fucking thing is still broken.
Sniper in general is...
@@TKsh1 not really. It's that a lot of maps are designed very poorly. Even if you halved his damage and tripled the time it takes to reach full charge... on maps like whutville he'd still be too strong.
It also didn't used to have general damage vulnerability when active. Instead it originally had a passive 20% fire vulnerability. Cause you know, Sniper is always letting Pyro's get close to him.
It's really funny to me that the direct hit has random crits
It's really not the bushwacka that's broken, if you try using it with the other minicrit weapon, the cleaner's carbine, it's a lot weaker as a weapon and the damage vulnerability matters a whole lot. It's still powerful, but it's a pretty balanced risk/reward
Jarate on the other hand has the huge splash box (not even a sphere lol), minicrits against literally everyone who was in it so you win a fight for free, and the ability to extinguish on a very fast timer. So it just pushes the bushwacka over the edge on top of its already insane potential
7:53 you scared me for a second there
I've always thought the sticky bomb launcher was more annoying than the sniper's rifle. The Demo can shoot around corners with it with ease, and even hold entire hallways just by using the stickies. There's a reason people consider it his actual primary weapon.
Of course, a coordinated team beats sticky spam, but a coordinated team also beats a problem sniper. Yet people seem to forget that with the sniper, so I won't acknowledge that with the demo.
The problem with Sniper compared to Demo is that he can shut off whole sightlines whereas Demo is more limited, also while demo is better at longer ranges to compared to other classes he won't be able to do much dmg and you can still approach him head on if he gets to comfortable, against Sniper you can only sneak or flank him, the damage he does on long range is too oppressive to fight him unless you're another Sniper and that why a lot of are having problems with Sniper, you can't find back unlike with demo where you have more options, TF2 is more fun when fighting at close range
@@baguettetheweirdguy2529 I explained it to you in my last comment, so this time I'll just say I disagree. Both are countered by adequate teamplay, but one has everyone convinced they can't do anything while the other is demoman. That pro sniper who never misses isn't real.
You know, Overwatch is another game that suffers from people who overestimates the strength of the sniper. I think its just a player perception issue.
@@baguettetheweirdguy2529 demo cant shut off sightlines but he definitely can just shut off objectives by just sticky trapping it and effectively pause the game. i think the only reason why people dont hate demo is because you can shoot his stickies so you do actually interact a little more with him, ignoring the fact that he can just spam more stickies while you're busy trying to deal with the past ones. i've gotten a ton of kills from just brainlessly spamming onto a cart or point.
hes also like the 2nd best class at longer ranges with grenades that deal 100 no matter where you are so i wouldnt say he cant do much damage there.
Use scorch shot or Detonator, it destroy the sticky, its that easy.
@@Multitasqing Yeah, just counter the demo. Just like you can just counter the sniper, and yet no one seems to take that as a valid response.
There was a change from the beta that goes mostly unoticed, they completely changed the way bullet spread worked
at 2:41, the clip where he kills the medic with the crit pipe, he himself dies to a bouncing pipe
Demo is still super good cuz he's one of the few classes that have class limit of one in 6s cuz two demos is just too much dmg 😮
A grenade launcher with rollers that explode on touch would be an interesting mechanic. The grenades could be round and bouncy. Downside would probably be something like less damage and lower clip size.
Lower clip size isn't very creative.
@Pinkooru and? Does that take away from it being a cool and unique idea in general?
@@NickMorales-wy3zh dunno about you, but for me personally "this weapon takes much less skill to aim but it does less damage" isn't what i would call a cool idea
Best way to describe demo now, he is completely overpowered when put into the hands of demomain who really skilled at him, and hes completely underpowered when joze.gonzalez2007 picks him and keeps shooting the stickies at his own feet.
So as any other class?
your conflating skill floor and ceiling with the actual power of a class.
Correct differrent player in teams with varying skill level is what matter most.Except sniper for now i personally think even on good team vs good team fights he can dominate the round cause a good team will try their best to protect a sniper but the other good team would try their best to push while having the sniper killed in some way possible.
Forget everything else you picked up the pan of none other than VideoGames2003.
God I remember the Old Demoman. He destroyed not just Sentries but stopped Ubers, Soldiers and even his counter (Scout) had barely a chance due to how much damage he did despite the scouts mobility. Although now I feel like Demo is in a rather good spot. Still very strong when ya put the effort in
Although the Bounce after hitting a wall was never seen or never registered
also doesn’t help that the mobility class is intended to counter the area denial class.
@@oscaranderson5719 the fact some guy in the comments said to learn scout to counter demoman is really funny considering this.
@@fantastikboom1094 it tickles me whenever anyone suggests it, and I think of a scout getting popped gently into the air 🤤
also ‘thousand march’ playing at the start 🔥🔥🔥
People might not be inclined to say he's OP because you just dont see as many crazy good stock demos as other classes like Scout, Soldier, Sniper, and Spy
A video of all of Demo's nerfs and no mention of airblast being given the ability to reflect
Airblast could reflect since it was added. But that's not a demo nerf. That was a Pyro buff.
@@SquimJim still shoulda mentioned it as a point of whether demo needed nerfs/buffs at different times, but yeah, technically true
The game is pretty balanced rn imo. Sniper is boring/frustrating to play against though. Medic/heavy would probably need nerfed if sniper sucked more though.
It could be fun to run a server experiment with a Full Power Original Demoman plugin just to watch the carnage.
Shounic has footage of the bounce hit.
ngl, that pose in the thumbnail looked alot similar to Spy's during the "pick a class" in-game
For the bouncing pipe beta thingy you can see it in meet the Demo when he uses it on a Pyro
(Credit to Great Blue for mentioning this in his video " what if TF2 was like the trailers")
Some context for the patch notes shown at 3:07; before this update, dropped weapons did count as ammo but the ammo values given were not consistently half your total ammo. It was instead based on 1. the the primary weapon of the class you picked up for ammo replenishment 2. how much ammo they had on that weapon when picked up (defaulting to the Secondary's amount if the primary was out of ammo from what i understand and 4-5 ammo if they have none) and 3. whether you shared any weapons with that class. This change was technically a buff to heavy, pyro and medic as the only way to fully replenish their primary ammo was to pick up a near full minigun, flamethrower or syringe gun and a nerf to everybody else. With the Demoman's reserve ammo being 30 for the GL if he killed a player who's gun had 30 reserve ammo it would fully refill his reserves.
Actually, Shounic did a video where he went back in time to the leaked TF2 beta. In that video, you can see him "recreate" that one scene with Pyro from Meet the Demoman
Sticky Launcher at the moment feels more like the real primary to Demoman, with the Grenade Launcher feeling like the secondary. Kinda sad the damage rampup never went through for them as that did make the stickies feel more like a secondary.
This was always the case, they swapped it in development because it wasn't clear to new players. Pipes are meant to be used primarily for self-defense when you get rushed
@@shadow50011 Not necessarily, you can sticky jump to safety. Can also use pipes aggressively, and if anything, stickies are meant to be used defensively by setting sticky traps.
@@realchiknuggets stickies are meant to be used both offensively and defensively, the thing about "stickies were only meant to be used for traps" contradicts developer commentsry
Most nerfed and still the strongest class
1:32 I giggled like a child lol
2:37 watch meet the demoman when his grenade bounces off the wall and explodes pyro
I am convinced that sniper was supposed to be the next class to get core rework. but after MYM flopped and JI flopped . we lost anyone who cared to work on tf2. so sniper will not be changed sadly.
How could you possibly rework him?
@@fantastikboom1094 you could try a bunch of things, bullet become very fast moving projectiles, laser when building up a charge like in mvm, rework the sniper rifles it self to have a magazine/individual round based reloads, making adsing have inerta so you would be a bit more sluggish on flick shots. here's a bunch of ideas that might or might not be needed. i'd support allowing uncharged headshots to mini-crit too as a buff.
@@Underqualified_Gunman while I like these changes as a scout. I think one major change I would like to see is probably a lowered ammo count. Maybe not as drastic as half ammo but definitely should be less than 25.
@@Aurum4137 thats why theres the magazine based reload.
@@Underqualified_Gunman true it probably just flew over my head. I would like to see an overall sniper change that allows the bushwaka piss combo to be nerfed. Maybe remove the all mini-crits are crits stat?
1:35 Slight correction. The Xbox 360 version of The Orange Box TF2 also shipped with 6 pipes but eventually got patched to 4. You can even see this yourself if you delete the cache/data and boot up the game without internet.
12:40 omg you picked up my pan (Videogames2003 here) 13:32 omg im famous
1:41 that orange box port was by ea
As I recall the explosion radius nerf was pretty well accepted as good. I was maining demo at the time
Can i give my honest hot take:
What demoman was, Soldier is now. I feel that much of Soldiers toolkit is much too potent to be considered balanced
“I’ve really hit rock bottom” -Demo Man tf2
2:45 gave me the most immense Tony Hawk’s Proving Ground vibes.
Slightly off topic but I love the bomb king in paladins, they made a character around the sticky bomb launcher, paladins was originally designed to be a combination of smite and tf2 but overwatched released first and some higher ups made them copy overwatch a bunch more than they ment to
Sniper is only OP if the person playing as sniper is good.
Sniper is also OP depending on loadout, most snipers run jarate bushwacka for garunteed melee crits (jarate grants mini crits, and bushwacka crits on minicrits)
Wind bombs sounds like a slang grandpa would say and never get into context on what it means
Remove sniper from TF2
I think it was Shounic who went rummaging through the beta's of TF2 and uploaded crystal clear footage of a pipe hitting a wall and then exploding upon hitting an enemy
And demo is still the best class lol. Shows how truly overpowered old demo man was.
1:32 that deserves a sub and a half
I now demand Loafy appear in all future SquimJim videos. Loafy's legacy will not be denied.
For demoman's grenade exploding after its first bounce is shown in meet the demoman
As someone who first played the xbox 360 version of tf2 yeah... he was insane
I've been told by the HONORABLE SquimJim to keep an eye out for a suspicious character known only as the wild "Salt God"! I've got my eyes peeled out for them!
I found him
2:30 there is an SFM known as 'meet the demo', you may not have heard of it, might have what your looking for.
The famous gameplay footage of SFM!
I lowkey still thought that Demo was one, if not the most overpowered class in the game alongside Sniper, in many ways the Demo is just a straight up better Soldier in almost every aspect outside of just not having optional shotguns (for those camping short circuit engies) and buffing backpacks.
Soldier has a falloff mechanic that never made sense to me where his rocket damage is based out of how far the player is from the target, going from full damage by basically being face to face with someone, to mere tickles by having the target being really far away... like, shouldn't it be the opposite way? you know, reward long accurate shots instead of punishing you for it? and Demo doesn't have any of that, you hit someone face to face or across the map, you'll most likely instakill a light class, and if they're close then it's even worse.
You can somehow dodge Soldiers if you know what you're doing, but the Demo's grenade launcher having that quirk of having the grenades roll around reward missing shots instead of punishing you for it, say, a Demo plants stickies in front of him and now he's using his grenade launcher against you, if he misses, those grenades are right behind you in case you retreat, and if you do, you're dead, if you try to get closer for better shots, you're dead, if you stay in place, you'll receive more stickies and die before you had the chance to escape.
Oh and don't get me started with a pocketed Demo, because pocketed Soldiers and Heavies have a lot of weaknesses that still allow for them to be killed, but a pocketed Demo fully removes the Demo's only weakness, his lack of HP regen, and with that you got a 2 men army that are capable of wiping out entire TEAMS by themselves.
he is, people just don't like to admit that the class who can kill everyone including his own counter by aiming in someone's general direction is overpowered
@@mr.monkey354 Yeah pretty much this, like I say, he's just a better Soldier since he does exactly the same but without any of the downsides.
There's a reason why the Lonch got nerfed after all, it was a better Direct hit in every aspect, and it could easily overshadow every soldier main.
Shoutout to the radius update breaking sticky jumping for a bit
i'm fairly certain the bit about demo's pipes doing more damage when you aim at someone's feet is still listed as one of the tips in the loading screens, albeit for soldier's rockets instead. while yes, it is a good strategy to knock people around and give them less control, it realistically shouldn't do less damage, yet it does. it's weird that a feature removed almost a decade ago for one class still exists for another. it's already common practice to shoot at people's feet as a soldier anyway, it's not like removing this handicap would actually alter the game in a way that makes him totally unbalanced, especially when the direct hit rewards you for sending enemies flying in the air and landing... well, a direct hit on them. the only flaw i can actually think of when removing that mechanic is the direct hit being pushed even more to the side compared to stock since airshotting with anything other than direct hit isn't entirely worthless now, but shooting someone on the ground or midair still entirely relies on you actually hitting that shot. of any possible flaw that could come from a change like this, it'd still wouldn't be nearly as OP or unbalanced as something like splash damage doing the same amount as a direct hit, or no damage falloff for any weapon like in TFC
People say “the problem with Sniper is that he was never intended for players to play 1000 hours on.” When Demoman has been receiving nerfs based on the growing and more realized skill of the players over the games time. Sniper needs a nerf like yesterday!
That isn't a contradiction, that's literally two things that jointly support what you are advocating for.
@@youtubeuniversity3638 It's not a contradiction, but I think that the sentiment "...Sniper [...] was never intended for players to play 1000 hours on," implies that Valve shouldn't be expected to update their games balance based on the growing playerbases abilities. I feel that A) we should absolutely hold Valve up to that standard even if they don't hold it themselves if they keep making money off the game and B) that they clearly have done it before with a different class but have not with the Sniper.
«in the transition from demoman to full game man”😭
Deep Dish 9 theme in background is so swag
Fun fact, Reinhardt is the most nerfed class in overwatch
Huh, I compleatly missed this one in my subscriptions feed.
12:29
I think i heard a faint
'Loafy no'
In the background
That demoman in the thumbnail. Scare's me...
There was this one tf2 fan game I played where they "balanced" sniper by giving him one shot in the clip, 120 damage quick scopes and I don't remember whatelse.
valve pls hire
@@artifactU I sure hope not. 😂 I'd rather have fishstickonasticks changes.
@@Jacob_Frye1 i dont like that guy so idk what changes your talking about
@@artifactU Kk, opinions respected. He gave most of the rifles clips and reloads. I'd have to reread the changes.
@@Jacob_Frye1 that would not fix the issues with sniper. but idk if anything could
I remember the 2014 nerf, so many Demomains cried the class was worthless now. (Same people that used bootlegger, and only Stickybombs as their only damage source).
Realistically I think they folded too quick on nerfing the stickybomb, it's clear they don't want people to be using it as an effective offensive tool.
So my suggestion honestly; they should of started by simply making it only begin arming itself once 'stuck' or after 3 seconds of air time (for those weird moving platforms).
With that nerf, you can still use it offensively.
Damage is very much untouched (120 max uncritted).
Except now there's a window for better counterplay around sheer spam.
This is the last video I got to watch before youtube's new UI got to me
You're my favorite tf2 content creator bro please never stop
man i actually forgot that demo man and soldier are like best friends
typically peopel weight the strength sentiment while aggregating (ex. adding a 1.5x for the most extreme options) to get a more accurate demographic impression
I would argue that, now days, the most broken or "overpowered" thing about Demoman is the Eyelander.
Actually, most "killstreak effect" or "snowball effect" weapons have this problem (excluding the Air Strike).
I don't particularly remember Demoman being an op class even in the glory days of the Loch N' Load. Don't get me wrong, it was really good in the hands of a veteran, but it was not really as brainless as sticky spamming.
Just a correction, pipes would always 2 hit soldiers. The damage didn't used to be random, but used to be based on how much of the hitbox was in the explosion, larger classes like sollie and heavy would reliably take more. The 100 damage thing was a pretty significant nerf, the most significant nerf the demoman ever took in fact, as it removed the ability for the pipes to one shot scouts.
As a big fan of the Mega Man games, I apprectiate the music you put in your videos.