thanks for this, have you considered debating another muslim apologist? i know last time went horribly but i would love to see a discussion/debate between you and Abdallah Al Andalusi for example
nah, he can't name 5 things without a creator with proof, and when he tries he will simply name things with a creator. Whereas I can name billions of things and show proof that do have a creator.
There is in built anesthesia. I wish nothing ever died though. we mammals especially have in built anesthesia particularly powerful when on the brink of death from blood loss and exhaustion the most common death for prey animals. I’d argue why did we need to evolve that at all? It only happens when you’ve cross the threshold of death anyway. Like without modern medicine at the point they kick in death is certain.
Alex, I'd be curious about your take on the research and hypothesis of Dr. Donald Hoffman. That we experience reality as a construct of space-time, which he says explains the difficulty in scientifically quantifying experience and consciousness as they exist outside that construct. I would say he would even make a great guest.
The S-rank is the highest grade in the Japanese school system; it comes from "shū" ("excellent", maybe?) and it is normally represented in English as "superb". It became popular in the West via scoring systems on Japanese arcade games, e.g. it's the highest performance you can get on Dance Dance Revolution
Anyone says an empty cult where this worst genretion has trapped and had to be judge by God for betrayed Gif for the nothing empty atheism gives to their lives? Lier as any Goddenier. What a cult!...
@@HENTAl69Anyone says an empty cult where this worst genretion has trapped and had to be judge by God for betrayed Gif for the nothing empty atheism gives to their lives? Lier as any Goddenier. What a cult!..
And the result of scoring 5-0 or more in the Inazuma Eleven games' competition routes... You probably have no idea what that means, do you? Never mind.
With the greatest compliment possible, I was thinking the American had that Golden Retriever energy. Watching at 1.25 speed, he seemed to be hopped up on gallons of Red Bull. But seriously, no shade whatsoever. Clearly a brilliant person with well-formed reasoning and critical thinking.
Is it weird to admit that these Cosmic x Majesty videos are a sort of comfort video for me? While I'm sure Alex enjoys talking to his other guests, his conversations with Joe feel much closer to a friend banter as opposed to a debate or an interview. There's an aspect of informality here that I really appreciate.
@@billwalton4571 why would Jesus choose disciples who *have* seen him to go forth and spread his gospel, rather than electing to moreso influence people who *haven’t* seen him?
@@JimBobJoeB0b cuz the apostles were specifically trained and taught by him specifically for this mission. cuz they were witnesses of his power, cuz they werent holy people at the beginning. if im not mistaken one of them was even a thief. and they all went thru drastic changes of behavior under him. they were also the first leaders of the church and people at the time followed them cuz they knew they met Jesus personally. tons of reasons why he chose them
Pretty awful argument, because just something is hidden to the senses doesn't mean the effects of the things cannot be felt. Like you can see smoke and ascertain a fire exists despite not seeing it, feel wind and know it exists despite not seeing it, suffer radiation poisoning and know radiation exists without seeing it.
I think the argument from the scale of the universe is typically a response to the fine tuning argument. Since clearly the majority of the observable universe is hostile to life as we know it, not fine tuned to support it.
There could have at least been a single galaxy, our own galaxy, teeming with intelligent lifeforms like in Star Wars and Star Trek. We don't even get that.
Yes I was surprised they didn’t consider this. This was precisely the way famous atheist Hitchens always used it. It’s a counter to thinking the universe is created for us or with us in mind .
The scale of the universe argument is certainly a real narcissistic one. God created the universe for His glory, not so we can go live in every part of it.
@@christsavesreadromans1096 We can't venture outside of our own solar system, let alone explore the rest if the galaxy, LET ALONE the rest of the universe. I don't see how it is "narcissistic" to want to be able to do more than we can do that way.
One of my favorite comments was on a 20 hour video someone said they were just going to watch one more video before bed.😂 Now I wouldn't do a 20 hour video before bed but honestly I might watch this one.
I'm getting a bit disappointment by the focus on a Christian "good God" (ok, maybe Zoroastrian as well) maybe mention Mesoamerican or Mesopotamian gods and their "morality" or lack there of every once in a while
@@NotIdefixchristianity is the main religion in the west and has a lot of political power, thats why western atheists tend to focus on it while atheists from the middle east tend to focus on islam.
@@user-bu3nb4ck7s taking down the Christian "good God" concept certainly makes for popular viewing in the west it would be good to remind viewers there are other creation myths out there involving god(s) and other "origin of evil" /"morals" explanations
I love this guy's vocabulary and freedom of thought. The way his choice of words match up with his ideas and how simply he can explain concepts makes it clear he doesn't just say things he doesn't really understand just to sound smart. Seems like a very intellectually honest guy as well. Definitely gonna check out his channel.
Watched the entire thing and thoroughly enjoyed it, what a fantastic guest and conversation! Would absolutely love to see him on again to discuss more of the arguments he references.
Eh, he fell into the usual trap people arguing against the existence of God set for themselves. During the problem of evil, he had that fairly clever argument to get away from having to establish objective morality by saying he was only talking about suffering. The problem is, he's still saying suffering is bad and it is good to avoid suffering. But why? He then fell into hyperbole with "There are countless theories that establish objective morality without God." Really? Countless? Interestingly, applying the same standard applied later in the video, wouldn't the existence of numerous, sometimes contradicting theories of objective morality without God be evidence that a true theory likely doesn't exist?
There’s only one TINY little problem with what you wrote above, Sir.☝🏼 There has never been, nor will there ever be, even the SLIGHTEST shred of evidence for the existence of the Godhead, that is, a Supreme Person, or Deity.🤓 It is high time for humanity to awaken from all INANE superstitions such as the belief in a Personal God who created the Universe, would you not agree, Slave? 😩
Okay but I have a deep philosophical question for you, if your name is capturing Christianity and your worldview is against taking captives, then how do you reconcile the inherent contradiction in your name?
I think you're missing the real point of the "universe big" argument. The point is to get you to question whether your belief in a God who built a world for humans is based on a cognitive bias. Suppose you were isolated tribe of a couple thousand who didn't know about the rest of the world, and you have a whole belief system that depends on a God who created the world for your isolated tribe. When you are made aware of the rest of the world, suddenly it seems less plausible that everything was made for you. You gradually realize that you only thought it was for you because you didn't know about everyone else. Similarly, as people become more aware of the scale of the universe, of other potential worlds with life, of other belief systems about God, of the number of animals in the world, the idea that everything was for you and your community's personal conception of God becomes less and less plausible. I grew up in a Jewish community. This might be mixing some arguments together, bu their idea that there is a God who has a special relationship with the Jewish people is embraced by 0.0001% of human beings who all happen to be Jews. Of course you should question whether that's based on a cognitive bias.
I also think that when someone says that “God created the universe with us in mind”, and you look at the actual universe, it’s like seeing a parent creating a room for a baby to live in, and then making 99,9999% of the room unlivable in a way that if the baby wandered there, they’d die instantly. I’ve seen parents struggle to make a safe and beautiful room, but this is quite the level of incompetence. At some point we might have to wonder if the room is really designed for the baby, or if we accidentally wandered in his tool shed instead and we were actually not even supposed to be here.
A male gamete is like 0.006cm and is meant to scale up to something that is like 175cm. Alex's argument that current planetary beings may be meant to inhabit spaces at an interstellar or intergalactic scale is plausible. Although it is quite an egocentric counter-argument to the big universe argument, it does retain the unlikely possibility that the big universe is meant for humanity.
Okay, but what do you mean by "arguments" and "for" and "atheism" and "tier list?." And it better not have anything to do with drugs or else I'm out of here
its strange to me when people claim if god revealed himself, it would abolish free will. The original story of satan proclaims he was a whole angel, who knew god, was 2nd to god, was as close to god as you can get. and still chose to go against god. So if god revealed itself, the true sinners, those truly evil, will continue to be evil despite seeing god. the people who truly "just want to sin" will. and those who were non resistant non believers would be saved. simple.
There's also the option of knowing God exists but simply finding him unworthy of worship/obedience. Not out of a desire to 'sin' or be evil, but just like a disappointed child rejecting the authority of their parent.
Exactly, God supposedly showed himself to a bunch of different people, people who are revered by Christians. "If God showed himself to us it would limit our free will" implies that the freedom of Paul, Abraham, Job etc. was limited, which I've never seen anyone argue.
Not only did Judas Iscariot witness the power of Jesus, but was granted miraculous powers of god through Jesus (Luke 9:1-6), and yet he still had free will, choosing to betray Jesus.
@@jelledesmet7086 All the ancient philosophers who thought more deeply asserted this was an impossibility -- to not one the one you are a part of and who made you. Think deeper. You cannot not want that which to you belong.
I actually cant believe this came out the exact microsecond that i finished rewatching the arguments for god video. LIKE THE EXACT SECOND I FINISHED IT THIS JUST POPPED UP. God is real. Final verdict
Tbh i like this longer format content from your channel not necessarily only this tier list format tho it was still very fun listening too, you should do more!
Whenever Alex and Joe have a conversation, they seem to cover every box and are so easy to understand. It's so beneficial for anyone new to these arguments.
That last video is one of my favorites you’ve ever made. Really it’s one of my favorite videos on the topic of religion as a whole. I didn’t know if this sequel was going to happen, so the surprise of it is amazing
Tier lists are always fun! Some of these aren't quite as strong as others. @CosmicSkeptic, you actually do a wonderful job of illustrating a key flaw with the Religious Confusion argument (via your parent and their children example).What I find interesting is that many of these arguments focus more on addressing or arguing against a benevolent, relational deity. In addressing a non-relational, non-benevolent deity, such as that seen in something like Deism (clockmaker), some of these arguments fall flat or become irrelevant. Curious if there are more specific detailed arguments addressing something like a clockmaker?
For the religious confusion segment: It would cost God literally nothing to completely resolve ALL doctrinal dispites to every person, no matter how small. He is supposedly infinitely powerful. Better than resolving them all when asked, he could do it pre-emptively. Instead, he used fallible men to write a consfusing mess of a book in languages that would die shortly after with no way to verify any of its claims.
@@christsavesreadromans1096you just lied it’s not obvious which religion is true because none of them have evidence that’s why it’s called a belief and not a science because science is fact belief is ideal
@christsavesreadromans1096 no matter which religion you say here, at least 2/3rds of all people are going to disagree with you, and that's without even going into denominations and specifics.
@@Luciferthekingofpurgitory No, its very obvious which religion is the correct one. The Catholic faith has more miracles than any other faith combined. People just don't like the rules so they'd rather be a Buddhist or atheist, or anything that sounds nice and frees one from the expectation of a future judgement.
Hey Alex I know you likely won’t see this, however just wanted to say thank you for bringing rise to my atheism I used to be a bit unconfident in my belief or atleast didn’t know how to argue it, But your arguments as well as some others make me feel more heard and understood than my family, I genuinely want to thank you for your content and hope you have a “blessed” day lol, much love and appreciation from the Bible Belt of Florida
Powerful discussion. Most all the popular arguments are discussed in the topics mentioned, which should be analyzed by others for further discussion. Well done
seeing two dudes on the same "side" lightly arguing and coming to disagreements sometimes but also conversing and relating well to one another is actually so fun and incredible. The respectful pushback you both offered without ever losing the friendship is such a novelty nowadays. Refreshing, informative, fun. Great fucking content my guy
Anyone says an empty cult where this worst genretion has trapped and had to be judge by God for betrayed Gif for the nothing empty atheism gives to their lives? Lier as any Goddenier. What a cult!...
After being close enough to God that the pain and suffering I went through was worse than when I was without God that I prayed to God to distance himself because I couldn’t handle his holiness I am thoroughly convinced that divine hiddenness is a blessing not only for the unbeliever but to the believer, everyone claims they want to be close to God but his holiness is so bright and pure I don’t think they realize what they’re asking. “But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.” Luke 12:48 “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.” 1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV
@@japexican007 you prayed to God to distance himself. so.. presumably, EVERYONE in heaven will suffer just by being near god. so it's suffering in heaven and suffering in hell. I give you that it solves problem of evil.. it's just god being everywhere,causing unnecessary suffering. but now you have problem of good. how is anything good possible,when you have omnipresent god that causes suffering by proxy. maybe god is not omni in any way,it was just one of his lies,to threaten believers into submission. meh.
Two of the smartest guys on TH-cam. Thanks for the interview Alex. It would be awesome if you did an episode with Emerson Green, he’s amazingly intelligent too.
Alex makes a great point about how people in Iran or other non Christian countries could be said to be more “Christian” than Christians in the west are in action and heart. He’s right.
Someone made a response to his debate with Jonathan Mclatchie, where he made that geographical argument a couple of years ago, saying essentially the same thing
It's one of a fee things that Jordan Peterson actually gets right. If us western Christians actually acted like what we believe , the world could be a magnificent place for all. Though from my perspective we , and those we know do our part
@@SeanathanCreek I wish we focused more on the 4 gospels in the west. I see a lot of Old Testament teaching. Which is fine but I rarely hear readings from the gospels. We don’t focus enough on Jesus life and his teachings from his mouth as written in the 4 gospels.
@Dgujg Agreed as some don't notice that it is greek-romsn literature and Mark was thrown in the dumpster by Luke and Mathew which considered each other to be wrong. John considered all to be totally wrong and made up his own story.
I love Joe's cheerfulness, the 15 hour video is already in my queue. I will definitely look more into an evil god hypothesis, because the rating of it based on asymmetries that the hosts mentioned doesn't seem reasonable to me at all, and by their convictions I'm curious what other asymmetries there are.
The idea that God has to allow 'evil' (I much prefer to say "suffering", or "badness": to me, "evil" invokes the supernatural) so that there can be such things as bravery reminds me of the idea that God had to condemn us to being born with Original Sin so that He could give us the gift of salvation. It's like a parent's saying to a child "I had to give you a bloody nose so I could 'kiss it and make it better'."
@@scottm4975it’s almost as if you wouldn’t be able know his plan, yet can still make objective statements about the inherent suffering needed for us to evolve. Do you believe slavery is immoral, why or why not, and what passage in the Bible do you use to justify your opinion? My main point being, you already hold beliefs about morality that cannot be formed by simply reading the Bible, you pick and choose what passages to follow.
2:08 Alex, with his immense vocabulary and amazing intellect could think of no better description of a tier list than "it's a big sort of box" 😂 Gotta love the man! Keep up the great content Alex!
Just watched the whole thing basically in one sitting. Would love to see more collabs like this with Joe, be they about atheist arguments, theist arguments or any other topic in philosophy!
In some sense this testifies to the lack of positive argument taking on the onus of disproving God, rather than dismissing its existence relativity to some other positive theistic argument. I guess
great video. i'd recommend, concerning fairness in placement, if it can't be met halfway, flip a coin and the one who wins gets their placement first, then the other next etc.
It's nice to see Alex speaking at ease with intelligent people. Sometimes I think he needs this as a relief from his more serious and challenging discussions. Interesting chat. I didn't learn anything, and I prefer the more mentally-challenging quizzing of the converted. Also the philosophical discussions. This is better to relax to. The others are better when I'm feeling energetic.
I went off Sam Harris about five years ago - and he was the person who really introduced me to the IDW and thinking critically in the way that you do. I'm so glad to see you succeed because you really seem like the spiritual successor to the 4 horsemen of the IDW in the best way possible.
From a logical standpoint, there is no reason that a god must be omni- anything. Therefore, the PoE is an S-tier argument against any religion (like Christianity) that requires an omni- god, but is D-tier (C-tier at best) against deism/theism in general.
A non-omni god is just a very very strong human/creature, might as well be an alien with force powers and nothing more, by a certain point of view, such a creature has very few reasons to be called god and expecially there would be no reason to worship him.
@@TonyLambregts Because the term was not invented for the abrahamic god, look at the god of ovids creation myth, he is unknown and powerful but not omni in any way. Still he is the cause of everything but chaos and his kind(the other gods) in this myth
I disagree, as long as we're talking about creationism, because a creator of the universe logically should be omnipotent in regards to its creation, because it's necessarily all-powerful. Maybe you could argue that its control is somehow overtaken by development, or something, but it just seems clunky and certainly you would struggle to find any kind of theist that approaches the problem of evil this way.
@@luphoria Why should a creator of the universe be omnipotent? There is no logical reason why a being that can create a universe must be omnipotent. Being able to create a universe is pittance in comparison to what an omnipotent being can do. I can create a metal spring, but that doesn't mean I can control every individual atom in that spring.
If you think religious confusion is a good argument, you think too highly of humans. We are the type of creatures who tend to hate the truth and look for excuses to distort or oppose it; just look at the society.
Seriously though. One of the best arguments against God is that He needs humans to make arguments for His existence. I think that's a subset of divine hiddenness though.
@@therongjr I was thinking more along the lines, if a triomni god exists, he wouldn’t allow people like D’Souza, Craig, Powell, Hamm, Winger, and so many others, speak for him. D’Souza’s recent performance surely deconverted as many Christians as Hitchens ever did.
The intrinsic motivationalism section was so interesting, I would absolutely love to see a full debate between you and Joe about morality. I know Joe leans towards moral realism, and it would be great to see you pick his brain about that.
I'm sure you get this a lot, but I am so thankful for your channel as it has re-sparked my interest in philosophy (i literally have a degree in it, but haven't kept up my studies in about a year). I think I underwent a sort of existential phase over the past two years because I found myself dying to accept religion or some sort of spirituality (I wanted "answers" I guess)...and even though I was more open to the idea. I could not ever commit because at the end of the day, I just don't believe. I also went through a sort of "atheism is reddit cringe" phase as well and did not like atheism anymore because of how chauvinistic and rhetoric-driven some of the older popular atheists were that I used to watch. But I have been obsessed with your channel given how seriously you take the questions and engage with the arguments. Anyways, great work. I am thankful for such content.
I can't help thinking of the kid who wrote in a paper for school that the Ancient Egyptians built pyramids and went on to explain that a pyramid is "a triangular cube".
Joe and Alex surely have a great character development since their last collaboration Now Alex is much more calm and composed, and Joe, more excited Happy to see You guys collab again😊
My favorite argument is to say: even if theism were true, one could never be justified in *believing* it is true. For whatever evidence or experience you might find convincing, you can never be sure that your experience *doesn't* actually have a natural cause. Imagine some guy appears in your room and claims to be god. Do you believe him? Why should you? How do you know he's not an advanced alien pretending to be a god? From your human perspective, you'd have no way to tell the difference.
The implied consequences of theistic claims make absolute questions like "does God exist" or "did Jesus really rise from the dead" less useful than relative ones like "how can I know what God demands of me" or "is Jesus the only way to salvation." Sure, a man might have done extraordinary things about 2,000 years ago. If that man were the ultimate messenger of the Almighty, why are we only learning about His life through fragmentary texts rather than direct experience? Why can we safely discount anyone who claims to fulfill His destiny as most likely delusional?
In a similar vein I’ve thought about how perception depends on transduction (such as photons to nerve impulses), and how we verify the external stimuli exists versus a delusion created by the brain (such as phantom limb syndrome). If “feeling god’s presence” (such as through prayer) was actually the transduction of some spiritual stimuli, how would we differentiate it from talking to ourselves? In short, we can’t. This realization was the “final straw” for me to become an atheist.
thats interesting but to me its not so much that you could never have good reason to believe it its more that you wouldnt have good reason to claim you KNOW God exists with total certainty which the religious often do
@S.D.323 To believe a proposition is to be *convinced* that it is true. If we can argue that theistic belief is unjustified, then it would follow that dogmatic claims to knowledge are unjustified too. I honestly don't know what it would take to convince me that a god exists. No matter how spectacular the evidence, I couldn't rule out all naturalistic possibilities. What if there's an explanation in 10-dimensional physics? Unless you know *everything* about the natural universe, you can't be sure that a phenomenon *doesn't* have a natural cause. Therefore seeing something super-magical and crazy looking still wouldn't be evidence for anything supernatural.
@@S.D.323 it’s much worse than not achieving certainty. There’s no grounds for granting more than some minimal credence. All one would have is some perception parsimony should have one assume it’s a hallucination as the default.
Hey Alex, I just wanted to say although I have been an atheist for a few months short of 2 years, you have greatly helped on my deconversion journey. It is great living life not believing the bullshit, and living with the actual world/people around me, and trying to change it and make it better!
It's this kind of reasoning that is good, because you bring in conflicting ideas and don't just try to steamroll with your own views. It's called honesty. It's what is important when tackling deep questions that influence us all. Good video.
My favorite response to the argument from religious diversity is polytheism. "Of course there are differing opinions on god! There are multiple and they're all different!" This also works well with how historically most religious practices have been polytheist. Also, I think the issue of material causality is best responded to by just conceding and making God an emanator instead of a creator.
Check out Joe’s channel: th-cam.com/channels/vWRKmcplBTYQS49AVGsLgw.html
thanks for this, have you considered debating another muslim apologist? i know last time went horribly but i would love to see a discussion/debate between you and Abdallah Al Andalusi for example
nah, he can't name 5 things without a creator with proof, and when he tries he will simply name things with a creator. Whereas I can name billions of things and show proof that do have a creator.
There is in built anesthesia. I wish nothing ever died though. we mammals especially have in built anesthesia particularly powerful when on the brink of death from blood loss and exhaustion the most common death for prey animals. I’d argue why did we need to evolve that at all? It only happens when you’ve cross the threshold of death anyway. Like without modern medicine at the point they kick in death is certain.
Not getting molested by priests should be high up the list!
Alex, I'd be curious about your take on the research and hypothesis of Dr. Donald Hoffman.
That we experience reality as a construct of space-time, which he says explains the difficulty in scientifically quantifying experience and consciousness as they exist outside that construct. I would say he would even make a great guest.
The S-rank is the highest grade in the Japanese school system; it comes from "shū" ("excellent", maybe?) and it is normally represented in English as "superb". It became popular in the West via scoring systems on Japanese arcade games, e.g. it's the highest performance you can get on Dance Dance Revolution
I like the ironic God tier.
S STANDS FOR SPITFIRE
Anyone says an empty cult where this worst genretion has trapped and had to be judge by God for betrayed Gif for the nothing empty atheism gives to their lives? Lier as any Goddenier. What a cult!...
@@HENTAl69Anyone says an empty cult where this worst genretion has trapped and had to be judge by God for betrayed Gif for the nothing empty atheism gives to their lives? Lier as any Goddenier. What a cult!..
And the result of scoring 5-0 or more in the Inazuma Eleven games' competition routes... You probably have no idea what that means, do you? Never mind.
Skim read the notification and thought it said “Arguments For Antisemitism Tier List” and got VERY confused 😂
He should do that.
@@annanysingh9188 not until he does the racial tier list.
That would be very interesting.
Where would current events and the Talmud rank?
It would be a good one aswell
(1) Bagels? Overrated
"1 more video before bed"
the video: 12 hours long
"Just one more spoonful of ice cream"
*Pulls out a comically large spoon*
i love it when alex’s videos are longer than the first hunger games movie
I love the dynamic of a laid back Brit and a high energy American in a deep philosophical discussion.
on the nose lmao !
I enjoy watching Alex's slight code switching to match the energy.
We're not laid back we're disappointed.
Depressed you mean? @@moriahgamesdev
With the greatest compliment possible, I was thinking the American had that Golden Retriever energy. Watching at 1.25 speed, he seemed to be hopped up on gallons of Red Bull. But seriously, no shade whatsoever. Clearly a brilliant person with well-formed reasoning and critical thinking.
Is it weird to admit that these Cosmic x Majesty videos are a sort of comfort video for me? While I'm sure Alex enjoys talking to his other guests, his conversations with Joe feel much closer to a friend banter as opposed to a debate or an interview. There's an aspect of informality here that I really appreciate.
Me too that's for sure
Totally agreed. Their energy levels also match very well in my opinion, with Joe being upbeat and high paced and Alex more calm and collected.
no, it's not weird
Hiddeness is S tier for sure. If you've never heard of a god, your first questions would be "Where is he? Show it to me. Where's your proof?"
but Jesus said to believe without seeing, so he has chosen to remain invisible for now
@@billwalton4571 why would Jesus choose disciples who *have* seen him to go forth and spread his gospel, rather than electing to moreso influence people who *haven’t* seen him?
@@JimBobJoeB0b he does what he wants
@@JimBobJoeB0b cuz the apostles were specifically trained and taught by him specifically for this mission. cuz they were witnesses of his power, cuz they werent holy people at the beginning. if im not mistaken one of them was even a thief. and they all went thru drastic changes of behavior under him. they were also the first leaders of the church and people at the time followed them cuz they knew they met Jesus personally. tons of reasons why he chose them
Pretty awful argument, because just something is hidden to the senses doesn't mean the effects of the things cannot be felt. Like you can see smoke and ascertain a fire exists despite not seeing it, feel wind and know it exists despite not seeing it, suffer radiation poisoning and know radiation exists without seeing it.
I think the argument from the scale of the universe is typically a response to the fine tuning argument. Since clearly the majority of the observable universe is hostile to life as we know it, not fine tuned to support it.
I've actually never seen it used in that context, but that is an interesting point.
There could have at least been a single galaxy, our own galaxy, teeming with intelligent lifeforms like in Star Wars and Star Trek. We don't even get that.
Yes I was surprised they didn’t consider this. This was precisely the way famous atheist Hitchens always used it. It’s a counter to thinking the universe is created for us or with us in mind .
The scale of the universe argument is certainly a real narcissistic one. God created the universe for His glory, not so we can go live in every part of it.
@@christsavesreadromans1096
We can't venture outside of our own solar system, let alone explore the rest if the galaxy, LET ALONE the rest of the universe. I don't see how it is "narcissistic" to want to be able to do more than we can do that way.
Oh man… a 2 and a half hour video notification at 1:30am 💀I’m cooked
One of my favorite comments was on a 20 hour video someone said they were just going to watch one more video before bed.😂 Now I wouldn't do a 20 hour video before bed but honestly I might watch this one.
Go to sleep. You will thank yourself in the future :)
Adelaide
no better time! so much uninterrupted time on ur hand
@@setharnaud7869 😱
I love tier lists. I don't care if they're overdone. It's a fun format!
I'm getting a bit disappointment by the focus on a Christian "good God" (ok, maybe Zoroastrian as well)
maybe mention Mesoamerican or Mesopotamian gods and their "morality" or lack there of every once in a while
@@NotIdefixchristianity is the main religion in the west and has a lot of political power, thats why western atheists tend to focus on it while atheists from the middle east tend to focus on islam.
@@user-bu3nb4ck7s taking down the Christian "good God" concept certainly makes for popular viewing in the west
it would be good to remind viewers there are other creation myths out there involving god(s) and other "origin of evil" /"morals" explanations
In never saw a tier list in my life and I haven't been living under a rock
@@bengeurden1272 nah... you've definitely been living under a rock
I love this guy's vocabulary and freedom of thought. The way his choice of words match up with his ideas and how simply he can explain concepts makes it clear he doesn't just say things he doesn't really understand just to sound smart. Seems like a very intellectually honest guy as well. Definitely gonna check out his channel.
Yeah, the opposite of Jordon Peterson in a way.
Watched the entire thing and thoroughly enjoyed it, what a fantastic guest and conversation! Would absolutely love to see him on again to discuss more of the arguments he references.
Eh, he fell into the usual trap people arguing against the existence of God set for themselves. During the problem of evil, he had that fairly clever argument to get away from having to establish objective morality by saying he was only talking about suffering. The problem is, he's still saying suffering is bad and it is good to avoid suffering. But why?
He then fell into hyperbole with "There are countless theories that establish objective morality without God." Really? Countless? Interestingly, applying the same standard applied later in the video, wouldn't the existence of numerous, sometimes contradicting theories of objective morality without God be evidence that a true theory likely doesn't exist?
Thank God for Alex.
There’s only one TINY little problem with what you wrote above, Sir.☝🏼
There has never been, nor will there ever be, even the SLIGHTEST shred of evidence for the existence of the Godhead, that is, a Supreme Person, or Deity.🤓
It is high time for humanity to awaken from all INANE superstitions such as the belief in a Personal God who created the Universe, would you not agree, Slave? 😩
@@whatisthetruth5726he’s joking lol
@@whatisthetruth5726are you acoustic?
@@pigeh 🎸 😂
Haha. Yes. Thank God for him.
This was a great episode, thanks Joe and Alex!
Okay but I have a deep philosophical question for you, if your name is capturing Christianity and your worldview is against taking captives, then how do you reconcile the inherent contradiction in your name?
@@thetheatreguy9853questions aren't arguments
@@adrianheath3854 I didn't say it was an argument I said it was a question. And I was also just being cheeky LOL
@@adrianheath3854 bro is fuming 🤣
@theaterbro you cheeky bastard
This was a fun one. More of this, please! Also, it's nice to see you laugh/smile more often, Alex.
Good to see you guys back together for this! Thanks for the content.
I think you're missing the real point of the "universe big" argument. The point is to get you to question whether your belief in a God who built a world for humans is based on a cognitive bias. Suppose you were isolated tribe of a couple thousand who didn't know about the rest of the world, and you have a whole belief system that depends on a God who created the world for your isolated tribe. When you are made aware of the rest of the world, suddenly it seems less plausible that everything was made for you. You gradually realize that you only thought it was for you because you didn't know about everyone else. Similarly, as people become more aware of the scale of the universe, of other potential worlds with life, of other belief systems about God, of the number of animals in the world, the idea that everything was for you and your community's personal conception of God becomes less and less plausible. I grew up in a Jewish community. This might be mixing some arguments together, bu their idea that there is a God who has a special relationship with the Jewish people is embraced by 0.0001% of human beings who all happen to be Jews. Of course you should question whether that's based on a cognitive bias.
I also think that when someone says that “God created the universe with us in mind”, and you look at the actual universe, it’s like seeing a parent creating a room for a baby to live in, and then making 99,9999% of the room unlivable in a way that if the baby wandered there, they’d die instantly.
I’ve seen parents struggle to make a safe and beautiful room, but this is quite the level of incompetence.
At some point we might have to wonder if the room is really designed for the baby, or if we accidentally wandered in his tool shed instead and we were actually not even supposed to be here.
A male gamete is like 0.006cm and is meant to scale up to something that is like 175cm. Alex's argument that current planetary beings may be meant to inhabit spaces at an interstellar or intergalactic scale is plausible. Although it is quite an egocentric counter-argument to the big universe argument, it does retain the unlikely possibility that the big universe is meant for humanity.
Almost one-third of the world are Christians and it continues to grow especially in Africa and in Asia.
Terrible argument.
@@ZoneTelevision *doesn't elaborate*
Okay, but what do you mean by "arguments" and "for" and "atheism" and "tier list?." And it better not have anything to do with drugs or else I'm out of here
Did you just create the unholy abomination that is Peter Peterson?
look if you just take some crack then you will get it
Lol the Peterson effect is still comical.
alex has taken advantage of my good nature sir!
That seemed like a blend of Peterson and Hitch's brother.
Alex x Joe content is by far my favorite! I find I learn so much from these types of videos! Hope you two continue to make great content
Can't get enough of both you gentlemen. Hope to see further discussions from this fabulous duo.
please stop arguing guys
Why
LMAOO
NEVER!!
Nah, brain plagues from the desert ought to be treated.
My dads fighting; it really takes me back to childhood.
I loved the first one and am very excited for this part 2!
Good to see you here.
Yo it's MindShift!
It’s the man himself
I love this video and these two!!! Tier lists are great, keep making them!
love this long form philosophy bro content alex bring joe back for more !
its strange to me when people claim if god revealed himself, it would abolish free will. The original story of satan proclaims he was a whole angel, who knew god, was 2nd to god, was as close to god as you can get. and still chose to go against god. So if god revealed itself, the true sinners, those truly evil, will continue to be evil despite seeing god. the people who truly "just want to sin" will. and those who were non resistant non believers would be saved. simple.
There's also the option of knowing God exists but simply finding him unworthy of worship/obedience. Not out of a desire to 'sin' or be evil, but just like a disappointed child rejecting the authority of their parent.
Exactly, God supposedly showed himself to a bunch of different people, people who are revered by Christians. "If God showed himself to us it would limit our free will" implies that the freedom of Paul, Abraham, Job etc. was limited, which I've never seen anyone argue.
Not only did Judas Iscariot witness the power of Jesus, but was granted miraculous powers of god through Jesus (Luke 9:1-6), and yet he still had free will, choosing to betray Jesus.
@@jelledesmet7086 All the ancient philosophers who thought more deeply asserted this was an impossibility -- to not one the one you are a part of and who made you. Think deeper. You cannot not want that which to you belong.
He also supposedly does. Various Old Testament characters knew god personally, where did their free will go?
I actually cant believe this came out the exact microsecond that i finished rewatching the arguments for god video. LIKE THE EXACT SECOND I FINISHED IT THIS JUST POPPED UP. God is real. Final verdict
lmao
And He especially cares about you.
exact same thing happened to me lmao and that video is like 2 years old
Was that synchronicity, an argument for a metaphysics beyond materialism or merely coincidence? U decide 😅
HALLELUJAH 😮😊
Seeing you two together brings me immeasurable joy. Great video!
Tbh i like this longer format content from your channel not necessarily only this tier list format tho it was still very fun listening too, you should do more!
Joe should stop by more often
Zendaya would dump him
No he should not
You can always watch him on his own channel.
Yes! This collab is what I needed, thanks
The vibe in this video is so lovely
I agree 😮 and it makes sense
Excellent episode!
Whenever Alex and Joe have a conversation, they seem to cover every box and are so easy to understand. It's so beneficial for anyone new to these arguments.
That last video is one of my favorites you’ve ever made. Really it’s one of my favorite videos on the topic of religion as a whole. I didn’t know if this sequel was going to happen, so the surprise of it is amazing
Tier lists are always fun! Some of these aren't quite as strong as others.
@CosmicSkeptic, you actually do a wonderful job of illustrating a key flaw with the Religious Confusion argument (via your parent and their children example).What I find interesting is that many of these arguments focus more on addressing or arguing against a benevolent, relational deity. In addressing a non-relational, non-benevolent deity, such as that seen in something like Deism (clockmaker), some of these arguments fall flat or become irrelevant.
Curious if there are more specific detailed arguments addressing something like a clockmaker?
For the religious confusion segment:
It would cost God literally nothing to completely resolve ALL doctrinal dispites to every person, no matter how small. He is supposedly infinitely powerful. Better than resolving them all when asked, he could do it pre-emptively. Instead, he used fallible men to write a consfusing mess of a book in languages that would die shortly after with no way to verify any of its claims.
It's obvious which religion is the correct one already, people just don't like it because they dislike the what God commands.
@@christsavesreadromans1096you just lied it’s not obvious which religion is true because none of them have evidence that’s why it’s called a belief and not a science because science is fact belief is ideal
@christsavesreadromans1096 no matter which religion you say here, at least 2/3rds of all people are going to disagree with you, and that's without even going into denominations and specifics.
@@Luciferthekingofpurgitory No, its very obvious which religion is the correct one. The Catholic faith has more miracles than any other faith combined. People just don't like the rules so they'd rather be a Buddhist or atheist, or anything that sounds nice and frees one from the expectation of a future judgement.
@@rmtsapphire0 Ok? and their denominations are false and were founded by men. Whereas the catholic church has been here since the time of Christ.
I love learning well known arguments like this, thank you!
Hey Alex I know you likely won’t see this, however just wanted to say thank you for bringing rise to my atheism I used to be a bit unconfident in my belief or atleast didn’t know how to argue it, But your arguments as well as some others make me feel more heard and understood than my family, I genuinely want to thank you for your content and hope you have a “blessed” day lol, much love and appreciation from the Bible Belt of Florida
Wow, what a great episode!
Joe is my favorite guest of yours, thank you!
Can’t wait for this one, Alex!
Love it when joes the on the channel it like watching alex talk to his American doppleganger
Powerful discussion. Most all the popular arguments are discussed in the topics mentioned, which should be analyzed by others for further discussion. Well done
All the times you guys both started a sentence, then both went quiet to let the other person talk was funny. As a fellow Alex, great work!
Joe is Awesome! Amazing guest! I've learned a ton from the Majesty of Reason.
Two of my favourite youtubers together 😍. This is going to be awesome.
seeing two dudes on the same "side" lightly arguing and coming to disagreements sometimes but also conversing and relating well to one another is actually so fun and incredible. The respectful pushback you both offered without ever losing the friendship is such a novelty nowadays. Refreshing, informative, fun. Great fucking content my guy
Magnificent video. A remarkably comprehensive assessment considering it is a concise summary.
I just saw the title and got so excited. Alex's old video with Joe Schmid on this is one of my favorites on the entire channel. Can't wait to watch!
Every Christian apologist is a walking argument for divine hiddenness.
Anyone says an empty cult where this worst genretion has trapped and had to be judge by God for betrayed Gif for the nothing empty atheism gives to their lives? Lier as any Goddenier. What a cult!...
After being close enough to God that the pain and suffering I went through was worse than when I was without God that I prayed to God to distance himself because I couldn’t handle his holiness I am thoroughly convinced that divine hiddenness is a blessing not only for the unbeliever but to the believer, everyone claims they want to be close to God but his holiness is so bright and pure I don’t think they realize what they’re asking.
“But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”
Luke 12:48
“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”
1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV
Exactly. How could I ever respect a god that needed pasty white middle aged overweight men with prostate problems to do all of his fighting for him.
@@japexican007 lmao bruh
@@japexican007 you prayed to God to distance himself.
so.. presumably, EVERYONE in heaven will suffer just by being near god.
so it's suffering in heaven and suffering in hell.
I give you that it solves problem of evil.. it's just god being everywhere,causing unnecessary suffering.
but now you have problem of good.
how is anything good possible,when you have omnipresent god that causes suffering by proxy.
maybe god is not omni in any way,it was just one of his lies,to threaten believers into submission.
meh.
I loved this. Thank you Both. And I did make it to the end. Great discussion
Two of the smartest guys on TH-cam. Thanks for the interview Alex. It would be awesome if you did an episode with Emerson Green, he’s amazingly intelligent too.
Alex makes a great point about how people in Iran or other non Christian countries could be said to be more “Christian” than Christians in the west are in action and heart. He’s right.
Someone made a response to his debate with Jonathan Mclatchie, where he made that geographical argument a couple of years ago, saying essentially the same thing
It's one of a fee things that Jordan Peterson actually gets right. If us western Christians actually acted like what we believe , the world could be a magnificent place for all. Though from my perspective we , and those we know do our part
@@SeanathanCreek I wish we focused more on the 4 gospels in the west. I see a lot of Old Testament teaching. Which is fine but I rarely hear readings from the gospels. We don’t focus enough on Jesus life and his teachings from his mouth as written in the 4 gospels.
@Dgujg Agreed as some don't notice that it is greek-romsn literature and Mark was thrown in the dumpster by Luke and Mathew which considered each other to be wrong. John considered all to be totally wrong and made up his own story.
One of my friends has become Chritian but does not admit since it is dangerous for him.
hahaha bringing the YT style into the podcast, love this
I love Joe's cheerfulness, the 15 hour video is already in my queue. I will definitely look more into an evil god hypothesis, because the rating of it based on asymmetries that the hosts mentioned doesn't seem reasonable to me at all, and by their convictions I'm curious what other asymmetries there are.
Amazing Show!
The idea that God has to allow 'evil' (I much prefer to say "suffering", or "badness": to me, "evil" invokes the supernatural) so that there can be such things as bravery reminds me of the idea that God had to condemn us to being born with Original Sin so that He could give us the gift of salvation. It's like a parent's saying to a child "I had to give you a bloody nose so I could 'kiss it and make it better'."
Look into Islamic worldview, it makes much more sense.
It’s almost as if you don’t understand what God has planned
Let’s at least theorize: you think if you were in Adam’s shoes you’d have made the right choice concerning the forbidden tree?
@@scottm4975it’s almost as if you wouldn’t be able know his plan, yet can still make objective statements about the inherent suffering needed for us to evolve. Do you believe slavery is immoral, why or why not, and what passage in the Bible do you use to justify your opinion? My main point being, you already hold beliefs about morality that cannot be formed by simply reading the Bible, you pick and choose what passages to follow.
“You are born sick, and commanded to be well.”
-Christopher Hitchens
2:08 Alex, with his immense vocabulary and amazing intellect could think of no better description of a tier list than "it's a big sort of box" 😂
Gotta love the man! Keep up the great content Alex!
Just watched the whole thing basically in one sitting. Would love to see more collabs like this with Joe, be they about atheist arguments, theist arguments or any other topic in philosophy!
I'm on team argument from material causality. Like the evil god hypothesis, it's elegantly direct in countering a specific argument for god.
Divine Hiddenness has always been a creme de la creme barn burner for me
I watched all 12 hours of joes video, I think he does an excellent job.
Perfect Sunday video! 😂
Wow fenominal video, very useful, I shall come back to it many times!
TBH a lot of these aren't arguments, they're counterarguments and taking them out of their contexts weakens them unnecessarily.
In some sense this testifies to the lack of positive argument taking on the onus of disproving God, rather than dismissing its existence relativity to some other positive theistic argument. I guess
Glad to see the old style of videos are back!
0:33 Right out the gate: "We're gonna *resurrect* it!" Nice! Very punny!!😂
Joe is so wellspoken, direct, and times himself well when others are speaking. Always love seeing him on Alex's channel 😎
great video.
i'd recommend, concerning fairness in placement, if it can't be met halfway, flip a coin and the one who wins gets their placement first, then the other next etc.
A conversation with Joe is always is so so interesting
Please make more videos with him 🙏
Nice one
Alex, you are my most favorite person in the world. Cool, calm, and collected. Thank you for doing what you do.
It's nice to see Alex speaking at ease with intelligent people. Sometimes I think he needs this as a relief from his more serious and challenging discussions.
Interesting chat. I didn't learn anything, and I prefer the more mentally-challenging quizzing of the converted. Also the philosophical discussions.
This is better to relax to. The others are better when I'm feeling energetic.
I went off Sam Harris about five years ago - and he was the person who really introduced me to the IDW and thinking critically in the way that you do. I'm so glad to see you succeed because you really seem like the spiritual successor to the 4 horsemen of the IDW in the best way possible.
From a logical standpoint, there is no reason that a god must be omni- anything. Therefore, the PoE is an S-tier argument against any religion (like Christianity) that requires an omni- god, but is D-tier (C-tier at best) against deism/theism in general.
But why then call it God? Perhaps its a polytheist argument that limit the ability of individual gods.
A non-omni god is just a very very strong human/creature, might as well be an alien with force powers and nothing more, by a certain point of view, such a creature has very few reasons to be called god and expecially there would be no reason to worship him.
@@TonyLambregts Because the term was not invented for the abrahamic god, look at the god of ovids creation myth, he is unknown and powerful but not omni in any way. Still he is the cause of everything but chaos and his kind(the other gods) in this myth
I disagree, as long as we're talking about creationism, because a creator of the universe logically should be omnipotent in regards to its creation, because it's necessarily all-powerful. Maybe you could argue that its control is somehow overtaken by development, or something, but it just seems clunky and certainly you would struggle to find any kind of theist that approaches the problem of evil this way.
@@luphoria Why should a creator of the universe be omnipotent? There is no logical reason why a being that can create a universe must be omnipotent. Being able to create a universe is pittance in comparison to what an omnipotent being can do. I can create a metal spring, but that doesn't mean I can control every individual atom in that spring.
I enjoy these discussions immensely
If you think religious confusion is a good argument, you think too highly of humans. We are the type of creatures who tend to hate the truth and look for excuses to distort or oppose it; just look at the society.
There ought to be only one item in the S-Tier: Religious Apologists.
There is only one argument in the S-Tier. Therefor we ought to always use that argument.
Seriously though. One of the best arguments against God is that He needs humans to make arguments for His existence. I think that's a subset of divine hiddenness though.
@@therongjr I was thinking more along the lines, if a triomni god exists, he wouldn’t allow people like D’Souza, Craig, Powell, Hamm, Winger, and so many others, speak for him. D’Souza’s recent performance surely deconverted as many Christians as Hitchens ever did.
@@basildrawsas a Christian I think this is genuinely a good point 😂
Every religious person you disagree with is an agent of satan, there, problem solved.
I was wondering if Majesty of reason would become a guest at some point in your podcast; guess this answers it.
The intrinsic motivationalism section was so interesting, I would absolutely love to see a full debate between you and Joe about morality. I know Joe leans towards moral realism, and it would be great to see you pick his brain about that.
*motivational internalism lol
This was great.
Alex said: “I hope it was fun, and I hope people enjoyed it“
Answer: was fun, did enjoy it.
You didn't include the blog with the 200 arguments for atheism in the description.
loved the arguments for god tierlist and i love this too!
I'm sure you get this a lot, but I am so thankful for your channel as it has re-sparked my interest in philosophy (i literally have a degree in it, but haven't kept up my studies in about a year). I think I underwent a sort of existential phase over the past two years because I found myself dying to accept religion or some sort of spirituality (I wanted "answers" I guess)...and even though I was more open to the idea. I could not ever commit because at the end of the day, I just don't believe.
I also went through a sort of "atheism is reddit cringe" phase as well and did not like atheism anymore because of how chauvinistic and rhetoric-driven some of the older popular atheists were that I used to watch. But I have been obsessed with your channel given how seriously you take the questions and engage with the arguments. Anyways, great work. I am thankful for such content.
Graham Oppy's theory comparison methodology would be on a tier of its own. It completely redefines the dialectic of philosophy of religion.
I just love how Alex is blushing on joe the entire time ☺️
I ship it!
I like that you are going through the pros and cons of each argument. Not something you find everyday
I've watched the 12 hour video *twice* lol Joe's awesome
I can't help thinking of the kid who wrote in a paper for school that the Ancient Egyptians built pyramids and went on to explain that a pyramid is "a triangular cube".
A cone with more edges?
Alex should spend a bit more time with physicists to hone his physics-based arguments
fortunately, the theists he debates know even less about physics
This guy is really breaking new ground. He really really is
good content is back❤❤
Joe and Alex surely have a great character development since their last collaboration
Now Alex is much more calm and composed, and Joe, more excited
Happy to see You guys collab again😊
My favorite argument is to say: even if theism were true, one could never be justified in *believing* it is true. For whatever evidence or experience you might find convincing, you can never be sure that your experience *doesn't* actually have a natural cause.
Imagine some guy appears in your room and claims to be god. Do you believe him? Why should you? How do you know he's not an advanced alien pretending to be a god? From your human perspective, you'd have no way to tell the difference.
The implied consequences of theistic claims make absolute questions like "does God exist" or "did Jesus really rise from the dead" less useful than relative ones like "how can I know what God demands of me" or "is Jesus the only way to salvation." Sure, a man might have done extraordinary things about 2,000 years ago. If that man were the ultimate messenger of the Almighty, why are we only learning about His life through fragmentary texts rather than direct experience? Why can we safely discount anyone who claims to fulfill His destiny as most likely delusional?
In a similar vein I’ve thought about how perception depends on transduction (such as photons to nerve impulses), and how we verify the external stimuli exists versus a delusion created by the brain (such as phantom limb syndrome). If “feeling god’s presence” (such as through prayer) was actually the transduction of some spiritual stimuli, how would we differentiate it from talking to ourselves? In short, we can’t. This realization was the “final straw” for me to become an atheist.
thats interesting but to me its not so much that you could never have good reason to believe it its more that you wouldnt have good reason to claim you KNOW God exists with total certainty which the religious often do
@S.D.323 To believe a proposition is to be *convinced* that it is true. If we can argue that theistic belief is unjustified, then it would follow that dogmatic claims to knowledge are unjustified too.
I honestly don't know what it would take to convince me that a god exists. No matter how spectacular the evidence, I couldn't rule out all naturalistic possibilities. What if there's an explanation in 10-dimensional physics? Unless you know *everything* about the natural universe, you can't be sure that a phenomenon *doesn't* have a natural cause. Therefore seeing something super-magical and crazy looking still wouldn't be evidence for anything supernatural.
@@S.D.323 it’s much worse than not achieving certainty. There’s no grounds for granting more than some minimal credence. All one would have is some perception parsimony should have one assume it’s a hallucination as the default.
Hey Alex, I just wanted to say although I have been an atheist for a few months short of 2 years, you have greatly helped on my deconversion journey. It is great living life not believing the bullshit, and living with the actual world/people around me, and trying to change it and make it better!
Yeah, comply, don't question...
Here here! ✊️
i would like to know what you guys believe and what is your guiding force/motive.
and i think you had a relationship with people and not with God
@@Polimuni you can question. anyone who tells you not to is wrong. i question all the time. i just dont let or use those question to walk away.
Lol. The problem with people is the fact that they consider Faith has devoid of all rationality.
Yet Faith without works is dead.
It's this kind of reasoning that is good, because you bring in conflicting ideas and don't just try to steamroll with your own views. It's called honesty. It's what is important when tackling deep questions that influence us all. Good video.
Great episode! There is a typo in the youtube chapter markers: Improvability -> improbability
its the greatest video of all time we have reached peak youtube
My favorite response to the argument from religious diversity is polytheism. "Of course there are differing opinions on god! There are multiple and they're all different!" This also works well with how historically most religious practices have been polytheist.
Also, I think the issue of material causality is best responded to by just conceding and making God an emanator instead of a creator.
My understanding of this is God doesn't care who is right but that they are worshipping him/her/them
Love this dynamic