Can the IETs ever be decent trains?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- The Intercity Express Project has hardly gone well. GWR's Class 800s and 802s (known as Intercity Express Trains), in particular, have failed to meet expectations, and things are only getting worse. So, beset with poor reliability, comfort and allocation, is it possible to save these trains?
Discord: / discord
Sources (or lack thereof!):
[1]: www.gov.uk/gov...
[2]: www.compinfain...
[3]:Amazingly, I cannot find any source for this (and no cost) bar a Wikipedia caption. It definitely did happen, though, as displayed in the photographic evidence in the video. If anyone can find any definitive documents detailing this, I'd love to see them.
Photography/Imagery:
ImagesUnite and Jollyroger, CC BY 3.0 creativecommon..., via Wikimedia Commons
TheTransportHub, Bananaman28, Florian Pépellin, Vanmanyo, Slenderman7676 and Ural-66, CC BY-SA 4.0 creativecommon..., via Wikimedia Commons
Walk Ride Bath
Deutsche Bahn AG / neomind
GWR
Bacon roll offer, Torquay by Derek Harper, Elsie esq., Hitachi's Rail Vehicle Manufacturing Facility, Newton Aycliffe by Thomas Nugent and The Basingstoker, CC BY-SA 2.0 creativecommon..., via Wikimedia Commons
TheFrog001, CC0, via Wikimedia Commons
GWR
Hitachi Rail Europe - Creative Commons
Carl Watson? (Class 442, unsure of origin)
Music:
Drop the Tapes - TrackTribe
#greatwesternrailway #iet
Great video. Agree with all the points made. Decent trains ruined by the department for transport trying to be cheap and cut corners like they have been for the past 60 years
DfT being incompetent and not being able to get fit for purpose trains for £5.8bn more like. Other countries manage to do it for less money so cost shouldn't be the fatal factor.
GWR is responsible.
Ive always been a Class 80S defender and fan, but that list of problems at the start was hard to argue with😕 The carpets looking like crap already is such a small thing I hadn't really thought about as a broad trend but does stand out in making the trains feel not-at-all premium.
How to fix the gwr IETS.
-replace the seats with similar seats as the TGV 2N2 (a bit narrower to fit uk loading gauge)
-repaint the interior
-ADD A CAFE CARRIAGE
-Add new toilet doors
-Improve interior ambiance
If this was done it would make the trains 10 times better
Having two units coupled together is such a flawed concept.
I remember seeing a lady with a first class ticket board at Exeter, who couldn't find her seat. She was in the wrong half of the train, and because it was busy, there were no spare seats, so she had to stand for 80 minutes to Taunton.
There is also the needless duplication of having four driving cabs and two kitchens! All wasted space.
9-car units would be far better
And all the stuff that talks to the signalling system.
That do be the issue with MU sets... You can't get the exact train you need easily.
it's overkill or overloaded.
With 9 car units you end up with a lot of empty seats off peak. The Waterloo Bournemouth Weymouth service was done right between 1967 and 1988.
@@davidty2006
Bad idea. Loco haufed sets which can be split are the way to do long distance routes.
Wouldn’t be tricky or that expensive to fix things.
Step 1: remove the seats
Step 2: replace the carpet
Step 3: change the lighting
Step 4: put different seats in
Done:
You could even coincide this with some electrification. Electrify down to Penzance and then bring the iets in to have their disel engines removed (they become electric only) which would reduce weight, energy consumption and track wear. And at the same time improve the interior.
No doubt even those changes would cost a few billion pounds for the government.
Great comments
i mean the whole Pendolino fleet of 56 trains are having their seats replaced and interior fittings redone at £117m. The GWR iet fleet consists of 57 trains (admittedly 5 and 9 car variants so not directly comparable to the Pendos). So I would expect a similar cost for the iets. Lets assume that the government electrifies the rest of the Great Western Network (££ billions) and the iets can have their disel engines removed. Factor in diesel engine removal (the iets were designed to have them relatively easy to remove) I reckon £150-200m to refurb the whole fleet. Much much cheaper than getting a whole new train manufactured. @@stephenmatura1086
Might as well slap a step 5: good repaint for good measure.
Also, better window alignment
If the swiss can do it why can't we.
@@davidty2006 Almost every train in Japan has seats aligned with windows, so amenities such as window blinds and coat hooks can be installed next to the windows in alignment with the seats. The people in DfT who design the interior for the new trains simply don't care about the comfort of the passengers.
The reason for the short formations is because the Castles are being wound down but instead of being replaced with new trains they are just spreading the existing fleet more thinly. There are far fewer 10-car sets running than there used to be - most of those are now running as 9s (or even as single 5s), and that has left gaps where they used to have 9s and they are now being subbed with 5s. It was a ridiculous decision to scrap that many trains without any replacements, and short formations on intercity services was the inevitable consequence.
There is the possibility that Transport for Wales' Class 158's will move over to GWR when they get replaced
@@hi-viz Let's hope so - 2+2 class 158 formations for the Cornish main line and Portsmouth services should be the goal.
Again the case of the SRA not thinking of passengers tbh.
Your shorter formations are now approaching what we have had to endure in the North for decades. Even now we count ourselves lucky to get even 5 carriages on anything other than Avanti.
What is here is the classic case of making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The trains are - as has been displayed - poorly thought out and, in some cases built. It all really started with the farce that became the GWR electrification programme that was abandoned half way through. The wires should have gone through to Swansea, Plymouth (both B&H and Bristol T.M.) and Oxford. The Penzance - Plymouth/Cardiffs could then have seen a modern sort of 5 car 159.
But that's sensible and Britain's railways have never done sensible.
The most comfortable seats that I ever experienced on a modern train were the original ones with the dark blue colour on the 377s. For some reason some were fitted with soft luxurious ones with dark blue covers and some were fitted with ironing board ones with light blues covers. They were all😅 changed for ironing board ones quite soon after introduction.
7:50 The current Deutsche Bahn ICE4s have inside frame bogies on their unpowered coaches, and there really isn't any difference in comfort when compared to the outside framed bogies on powered cars. This is true even at top speed, which is about 30mph higher than on the IETs. So the general concept doesn't appear to be the issue, but rather the implementation. I'm guessing the IET bogies were designed to be cheap and nothing else, which does seem to be in line with the rest of the train.
The IET trains were the most expensive ever.
@@physiocrat7143 I can only presume, then, that the DfT hadn't the least idea what it was doing. (No surprises there, I suppose).
@@johnhammond5379
Or that brown envelopes were exchanged. The entire procurement process was heavily criticised by the Parliamentary Accounts Committee and in a detailed report by Sir Andrew Foster but Philip Hammond Transport Secretary gave it the go ahead anyway.
At that time the Mark 3 fleet had an expected future life to at least 2030. Money down the drain.
First and the fact that the old seats meet fire safety standards is so ironic.
I went on a castle set last year and while the ic70 is better, These are very comfortable (but lner/cross country seats were the better,) as the quality is better then lumo (trust me I went on it form london to Edinburgh once) so these should be used on the intercity trains or hopefully the EU makes the fire safety less strict so then we can get designs like the ic70 which would put the iet (along with the bikes and buffet fixes) a Topdog in the eyes of us passengers fixing hight issues, Bike issues and Buffet issues if we introduce them on all trains, also comfort issues, then they can make them double deckers for more capacity (fitting in the standard loading gauge of the country) So we could have all of this fixed
@@ashleyjiscoolDouble decker trains won't ever happen in the UK, I don't think. This is because of the height of structures (such as bridges, tunnels, signal gantries etc) that would simply make it unfeasible to introduce them
@@DENPTrains I mean something like the 4dd but modernised (the 4dd was double decker) but a lower hight multilevel form the New Rat City could work as well
@@ashleyjiscool Potentially, but unsure if this design would work in a modern environment (apparently they were cramped, poorly ventilated and had longer wait times at stations) plus it was a compartment train, so you have to ask if modern 2+2 seating can fit more rather than stacked compartments
@@DENPTrainsIt could be redone to be like the multi levels in nyc
Before the wear and tear on the seats they were already incredibly uncomfortable. Bolt upright and no reclining…
So many other countries offer reclining seats on long distance train journeys !
Absolutely, the 80x seats don't hold a candle to the seats in the mk3 carriages, absolutely farcical that these are supposed to be the long distance replacements, going from incredibly comfortable cushioning that felt like an airliner, to incredibly thin, firm, unpadded seats that feel like you're bent forwards at an 85 degree angle with the headrest bending you forwards even more, absolutely horrible experience
My first ever journey on a UK mainline train was a GWR class 80, and I was amazed at how poor the interior was of this flagship train. The IÉ class 22000 DMU blows it out of the water and it’s a decade older.
GWR staff have become quite critical of Hitachi and I don't know if that is policy or frustration on the part of staff. I was on one service and the catering provider announced "Unfortunately there will be no hot drinks available on this service because the water heating equipment isn't working. This was reported to Hitachi who are supposed to maintain these trains but nothing has been done". Of course, though, the entire 80X fleet was under-specced. The seats are just awful and the lack of any proper catering is a disgrace.This was one of Europe's most sought after train contracts and considering the money involved it's a disgrace.
One relatively positive comment: when these trains run under diesel power, the engine noise in the passenger cabin is relatively muted. I have been on some Voyager units where the noise level is significantly higher. I also like the colour display of seat reservations on the IETs - you can very quickly assess where the unreserved seats are. After that, sadly, I agree with all your comments. The lighting does not affect me personally, but I fully appreciate that to others it is a real problem. The seats are, of course, on of the biggest problems. However, I also want to comment on catering, especially hot drinks. When there were buffet cars on the HSTs, you could get a pretty decent cup of coffee from the machines that had latterly been fitted (assuming they were not our of order!). A trolley provides a very lacklustre cup in comparison. Your idea about some way to get hot food is also a good one. If you are travelling all the way from London to Cornwall, the current provision is simply not good enough. Thank you for your vid, and keep up the good work!
Fantastic video, IETs have great potential but it’s not being realised properly
What worries me about replacing seats is that they might squeeze more in like they did with the HST, I even prefer the hard bar on my bum to the abysmal legroom they had. I think a strip of wood or laminate flooring down the aisles would be nicer than the carpet and help break up the monotonous grey. I also find the lip around the edge of the tables pretty uncomfortable.
I think the lesson is to not let DfT spec out a train ever again
What was need was freedom for the operators to decide their replacement and interiors. Then I believe we would get better trains that were more reliable.
@@Mgameing123or alternatively we get something even worse under the guise of delivering better value to shareholders, it could go either way with most of the TOCs that operate some variant of the 800s
Wood or laminate is a terrible idea. We don't live in a dry country and the H&S concerns would be significant. A dark carpet is a better option
Love the first class seating ideas! I wish the UK had the ability to innovate on a similar scale as central European counterparts without just having to copy them to get good trains but oh well. As for capacity, GWR honestly could do with a big expansion of their regional diesel fleet, hopefully one that could then reliably cover all of the services like Cardiff-Penzance services thus displacing IETs back to the Paddington diagrams. Hopefully that would mean the sets wouldn't have to do so many stopping services, perhaps that would have a positive impact on reliability as well.
well none of the trains are of british design anymore and most or if not all of the BREL knowledge has been lost to time over the various buyouts, adtranz, bombardier and finally alsthom. the electrostars were the last trains of good british based design being made on networker technology
But, we are not supposed to be ordering any more diesels, emissions targets, you know.
Is that Julie Berry at the end? Nice touch!
You should have asked for some footage of the poor build quality, safe to say that I have a lot of clips of broken panels, loose seat cushions, and all sorts of stuff! 😅
That would have been excellent! I'll keep it in mind in future.
Until recently I used to take these fairly frequently between London and Bristol. One time at top speed I thought 'good grief this thing does not feel sturdy, and is rattling itself to bits, surely there's gonna be problems.' Sure enough a couple of months later they discovered the cracks.
The whole train (as the lack of seat-padding constantly reminds your backside) just oozes being built to the lowest cost and quality they could possibly get away with, and then some.
I hate GWR more and more
IET is a bloody stop gap at this point
Given recent refurbishments across the operators it is abundantly clear that there has been a progressive watering down over last 5 years
of any 1st class offering.I am pretty sure that soon it will be a thing of the past.
Having been on both LNER and GWR 80Xs this year, I can at least say that the design and feel of the LNER ones is far better. They are cleaner, the red just creates a warmer atmosphere, and LNER just offers more on their trains. The LNER 800s also have a much smoother ride, though that may just be that the ECML is a better quality track than the GW line.
Hitachi has luckily delayed the 810s promised to EMR in a hope to update the design and fix it. Though having been on an EMR 222 down to St Pancras, it was a much smoother ride than the GWR 802 was out to Reading. So Hitachi have to equal or better an already 20 year old design for them to get good reviews from EMR.
We'll see if they can get better I guess.
I think the ECML being electrified contributes majorly to the ride quality, other commenters are saying the GWML should be fully electrified to get rid of the diesel engines and improve ride quality.
Certainly I know when I'm travelling down the WCML I avoid the diesel-electric Super Voyagers as best I can and try to stay on Pendolinos - with the exact same track conditions the Voyagers rattle my bones out while the Pendos are so smooth and comfortable.
Casual company bias since LNER passes newton aycliff where the trains are made?
The LNER ones are certainly much better. This is partly because Virgin East Coast got into a quite heated discussion with the DfT over their specification, and in the end convinced them to allow buffets and personalised interiors to be fitted.
@@GWVillagerInsider perspective here - GWR have fought for better interior fittings (the lime green stripes come to mind!) but Hitachi have refused to allow them, as they don't want GWR fitting out the interiors for 'product image' concerns. Bold words coming from a company that hasn't had to carry a single fare-paying passenger!
@@danlastname9002 A similar thing happened when specifying them in the days of Virgin Trains East Coast - but Virgin actually got their way in the end.
Bring back the HSTs at least they were comfortable I travelled to Bridgend recently and by the time we left Swindon I was most uncomfortable the seats were horrible.
Last i checked good chunk are currently just sat in sidings....
Considering theres still drivers trained on HST's and decent amount of IET drivers being former HST drivers.
Should be somewhat easy enough to recommision.
To me it’s a no no running diesel trains under the wires in 2024. This idea is as daft as continuing to run voyagers under the wires.
48 year old diesel trains in 2024 doesn’t seem ideal
HSTs were reliable and good for punctuality but they’re too old
Great video! I wish these trains were much better, and everything you said is reasonable. Julie Berry at the end caught me off guard though~
The food trolley also really bangs up the arm rest and seat edges. LOVE that idea about a 5 car fast train to Worcester after splitting at Oxford. I reckon to do that they'd need to redouble the single track sections between Oxford and Hanborough and Evesham and Worcester. Simply better seats would do the world of good! Also bins in consistent places would be very helpful. It's never easy trying to remember where they are as they change locations.
The trolley banging the seats is really annoying, especially when you're not expecting it and you suddenly get slammed in the back!
If they plan to lengthen or rearrange trains, they could just order a bunch of extra coaches with cafés in them like LNER have, and swap/add them in, without requiring any expensive new design/manufacturing-changes/testing that might come with a more substantial refit.
I'd also be interested to know if your poor experience with rattling and such is specific to the 802s or also applies to the other classes, since the 802s (which were manufactured at the Hitachi Rail Italy plant shortly after its acquisition, unlike the others) are known to have serious fitment problems due to major quality control issues at the Italian plant. I have not noticed any issues on the occasions that I've been on LNER 801s (though it doesn't mean they aren't necessarily present)
Adding buffets in new coaches would be great, I must admit I hadn't thought of that.
Cheap tat regardless of the cost. Hitachi must’ve seen them coming 🙄
Hitachi wasn't responsible for the interior.
Don't forget that a lot of these were built in Italy by Ansaldo-Breda (or what used to be until Hitachi bought it). That company was bankrupt, and was responsible for the exceptionally bad built quality of the Dutch V250 high speed trains, so bad that they were all returned to the factory and money paid back in a settlement.... I didn't believe that the quality under hitachi miraculously would be solved, that factory still has quality control issues.....
I've heard that a lot of engine breakdowns are safety shutdowns due to overheating in the summer. This only happens because air filters for cooling get clogged with pollen, and work is being done to investigate and remedy this
I'm amazed at the ability of the DfT/government to procure such poorly specified trains from otherwise decent manufacturers. Even the normally stalwart Siemens managed to make the naff 700s. For what's supposed to be a 30-40 year asset it's shockingly poor investment, which UK travelers will have to suffer with for decades. And now we find that our sole remaining UK designed manufacturer at Derby has been driven out of business, largely due to excess manufacturing capacity. Isn't competition wonderful for improving value and UK business.
Good old Tory policy to penny-pinch every way they can even when it's more expensive in the long run.
Conservative Chancellor after Conservative Chancellor has under-budgeted all sorts of projects, only to end-up needing to pay more later. At this point I can't imagine they're just fools, I think they must know it generates higher income for the companies which step-in to save the day, at an inflated rate, when disaster strikes.
The very basic fact that infrastructure (education, health, transport, etc) is one of the best long-term investments a state can make in itself, that the long-term returns are many times larger than any initial cost, always seems to be conveniently at the back of their minds. Or they'll claim to recognise it, but then say there's still room to cut costs (even when that comes at the expense of effectiveness).
Civil servants always screw things up. Defence procurement is another example.
@@physiocrat7143 TBH I don''t blame the civil servants, it's political, due to the obsession with open competition over sustainable industrial policy. A policy of competition over all other considerations always results in overcapacity and a race to the bottom with quality. Plus UK manufacturers are fully exposed to open international competition, while their offshore competitors are well supported by their own governments, giving them an unfair advantage. UK industrial & engineering base has been decimated with this madness.
@@enemyofthestatewearein7945
The IEP project was driven by the the DfT. The industry did not want the wretched things. It was also known that the Mark 3 fleet was good until the late 2030s. The specifications for the seats and interior configuration came from the DfT. Five billion was completely wasted. These trains cannot be fixed. They should go to Sims Metals.
They are so rough. I was on the Reading to Paddington yesterday and within 10mins i was in the toilet throwing up. My stomach just cannot deal with all the vibration and jiggling around. The seats are almost painful, so i tend to stand.
In the summer, I travelled on a WSM-PAD train from Chippenham that was so jam-packed that it took several minutes to get on and then squeeze my way through the crowded vestibule into the compartment to find a space where I wasn’t breathing down someone’s neck! I had a large suitcase of course.
The replacement of 9-coach sets with 5-coach sets also makes a mockery of the seat-booking system.
I needed to know why they don’t dig a tunnel and do an extension for the main line Train so that they can extend the unused abandoned underground train stations. Why couldn’t they use the part D78 Stock train doors on the sides and also restructure the front face of the A60 and A62 stock that includes the class 313, class 314 and class 315 remix and make them all together and also redesign them an overhead line and also make them into Five cars per units and also having three Disabled Toilets on those Five cars per units A60 and A62 stock trains and also convert the A60 and A62 stock trains into a Scania N112, Volvo B10M, Gardner 6LXB, Gardner 6LXC and Gardner 8LXB Diesel Engines and also put the Loud 7-Speed Voith Gearboxes even Loud 8-Speed Leyland Hydra cyclic Gearboxes in the A60 and A62 stock, class 313, class 314, and class 315 and also modernise the A60 and A62 stock and make it into an 11 car per unit so it could have fewer doors, more tables, computers and mobile phone chargers. A Stock Trains and also having 8 Disabled Toilets on those A stock trains. why couldn’t we refurbish and modernise the Waterloo and city line Triple-Track train tunnel and make it larger and extend it to the bank station, making it into a Triple-Track Railway Line so those Five countries such as Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden to convert the waterloo and city line Triple-Track Railway tunnel into a High-Speed Railway lines? The Third Euro tunnel Triple-Track Railway line to make it 11 times better for passengers so they could go from A to B. Then put the modernised 11 car per unit A Stock and put them on a bigger modernised Waterloo and city line Triple-Track train tunnel so it could go to bank station to those Five countries such as Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden. The modernised refurbished 11 cars per unit A stock could be a High Speed The Third Triple-Track Euro Tunnel Train So it is promising and 47 times a lot more possible to do this kind of project if that will be OK for London Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden. oh by the way, could they also tunnel the Triple-Track Railway Line so it will stop from Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire and Essex so that the Passengers will go to Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland and Sweden and also extend the Triple-Track Railway Line from the Bank to Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire and Essex Stations so that more people from there could go to Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden more Easily. Why couldn't they extend the Piccadilly Line and also build brand-new underground train stations so it could go even further right up to Clapton, Wood Street can they also make another brand new underground train station in Chingford and could they extend the Piccadilly Line and the DLR right up to Chingford? All of the classes 150, 155, 154, 117, 114, 105, and 106, will be replaced by all of the Scania N112, Volvo B10M, Gardner 6LXB, Gardner 6LXC and Gardner 8LXB Diesel Five carriages three disabled toilets are air conditioning trains including Highams Park for extended roots which is the Piccadilly line and the DLR trains. Could you also convert all of the 1973 stock trains into an air-conditioned maximum speed 78 km/hours (48 MPH) re-refurbished and make it into a 8 cars per unit if that will be alright, and also extend all of the Piccadilly train stations to make more space for all of the extended 8 car per unit 1973 stock air condition trains and can you also build another Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive Companies and can they order Every 67 Octagon and Every 37 Hexagon shape LNER diagram unique small no.13 and unique small no.11 Boilers from those Countries such as Greece, Italy, Poland, and Sweden, can they make Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive speeds by up to 147MPH so you can try and test it on the Original Mainline so it will be much more safer for the Passengers to enjoy the 147MPH speed Limit only for HS2 and Channel Tunnel mainline services, if they needed 16 Carriages Per units, can they use those class 55’s, class 44’s, class 40’s and class 43HST Diesel Locomotive’s right at the Back of those 18 Carriages Per Units so they can take over at the Back to let those Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive’s have a rest for those interesting Journeys Please!!!!!!, oh can you make all of those Coal Boxes’s 18 Tonnes for all of those 147MPH Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive’s so the Companies will Understand us PASSENGER’S!! so please make sure that the Builders can do as they are told!!!!!!!!!!!! And Please do something about these Very Very Very Very Very Very important Professional ideas Please? Prime Minister of England, Prime Minister of Australia, Prime Minister of Sweden, Prime Minister of Germany, Prime Minister of Italy, Prime Minister of Poland and that Includes the Mayor of London.
I can never understand why GWR have so many 5 car units when they are employed on long distance services
You make a number of good points
The other thing I can’t understand is why when 2 395 or 800 units are joined together they didn’t think about passengers and staff being able to walk the full length of the train it’s clear that who ever placed the original order for the stock they can’t have ever worked a train
Cheap fix: call them ICs. Whoever came up with the ridiculous IET? There are too many problems with these trains which over time is going to cost an absolute fortune to keep them running. The decision should be taken to scrap them once a replacement is on the stocks. The DfT is just as much to blame as Hitachi as it determined the specification. If you want a good product then look no further than Siemens. Also the rest of the GW mainline system must be electrified, like, urgently. Bimode, as now, is not the answer. Your video has opened a can of worms. Well done.
The DfT certainly made a big mistake ordering these - a modified version of the Siemens Velaro might have been a good idea, but I don't know.
Even if siemens made these trains they would still be bad due to DfT tinkering
@@GWVillager The DFTs New Name Should Be The Department Against Transport at This Point
Even just as far as Taunton would be a huge upgrade
@@holnrew Well I Would Say Bring Back The HSTs Would Be a Upgrade More
The ride quality through the Chipping Campden Tunnel is really rough.
Don't think the single tracks along the Cotswold Line would allow for a fast service followed by a stopping service each way.
It would need strategic redoubling, yes.
Also Hitachi are also to manufacture the Class 805 and Class 507 for Avanti West Coast and Class 810 for East Midlands Railway which these should be in service from next year onwards.
They're not called the Shithatchi 800's for nothing
Bloody hateful things.
Lighting, seating, ambiance, cleanliness, ride, noise, absolute crap 1st class compared to the trains they replaced.
I like the idea of the pods in 1st class
I also like the idea of 2x5 units with the forward unit providing a fast service and the rear unit following on behind as a stopper service (The Hastings units used to do this between Tunbridge Wells and Hastings) A fast service west of Exeter calling at just Plymouth, Truro and Penzance would be very welcome and much sought after.
The Shithatchi 800's were built to a price, not a standard
Don't blame Hitachi, they had nothing to do with the interior and it's obvious you have never seen what Hitachi is capable of when it is given the proper budget anyway!
You obviously don't have to ride the bastard things for 4:45hrs once a week
Now what's the word I'm looking for.......oh yes - 'crap'!
I'm most familiar with the LNER sets so for them I would propose a number of major changes and a number of more cosmetic changes.
Major Changes:
1) Extend all trains to 11 carriages
2) Move the Quiet Coach to Coach A (furthest from the barriers at Kings Cross) rather than having it in the middle of the train.
3) Move the standard class Wheelchair space and add an Accessible toilet towards the middle of the train rather than in coach A at the far end of the platform at Kings Cross - whoever approved that in the first place needs to be fired!
4: Ideally move the kitchen and Buffet to be together between first and Standard class, ideally in the same carriage as the wheelchair spaces, and add a dining area in this carriage so that the end carriages are fully usable with seats.
Cosmetic changes:
1) Replace the standard class seats with more comfortable ones similar to those on Lumo, and have them properly aligned with windows
2) More Luggage space at the ends of carriages by the door pockets
3) Tone down the lighting onboard
4) Rearrange first class seats to be window aligned and replace the tables with some that don't impact leg space.
As someone who travels on these trains every day at 125mph (fortunately only for a short way) I do agree with most of the problems. The GWR sets are certainly the worst when compared with the other operators. Every other operator has done some to make them feel better and GWR are much left with the most basic version.
Regarding the bogies. I sort of accept your comment that inside frame bogies reduce the ride quality over full framed bogies but in the case of the 80xs I disagree.
The ride I have found on the 80xs when running from Chippenham to London Paddington gets progressively worse the closer you get to london despite the speed being the same with the final section from Reading being awful. I have always found it odd that the 80xs have two styles of bogies with full frame bogies most of the time and inside frame bogies found only on the non driving trailer coaches in the 9 car sets. It is though Hitchi haven't worked out how to make an inside frame motor bogie something every other manufacturer has worked out. (The class 385s also use 2 different types of bogie).
I have travelled on both the coaches with full frame bogies and those without (I mainly travel in the coaches with full frame bogies) and I have found the ride to have no difference I have noticed.
You showed a class 700 bogie and despite these being inside frame I have ridden these loads and not actually noticed the ride to be bad at all it can be a bit bouncy at 100mph but not hard like it is on the 80xs. For another comparison I have ridden both 700s and 387s on the line from London Kings Cross to Hitchin and the 387s have a noticeably worse ride when compared with the 700s and yes they were both doing 100mph. So based on this I think it is far less about the style of bogie as there clearly are other things that factor because you have good inside frame bogies.
This is true - it’s not inherent that inside frame bogies give a poor ride and outside frames give a good one - but there is a strong correlation. I would also say that the inside sprung bogies on the IETs do perform worse in my experience, though there’s not a huge amount of difference.
Yes the 387s have a horrible ride
I've never travelled on the GWR sets. I use the LNER ones every week and they seem fine. Obviously not as comfortable as the MK4 sets but acceleration is very good. Only down side is the tiny standard class buffet. Its like a cupboard, and i dont know how the catering staff put up with it. Otherwise theyre pretty ok.
The GWR ones are the worst of the lot, they were the ones with the cracks and the seat cushions have collapsed meaning there's a bar digging right into your bum the whole time. Survivable for 1h 20 from Bath to London, I wouldn't enjoy it for 3 to 5 hours. The interiors are also really dirty and some of them have really ratty looking carpets. The acceleration is good, but the ride at speed is like a shopping trolley. I don't find the rough ride that bad, it's not my biggest complaint, to be fair I didn't think the HSTs rode especially smoothly, but it's the seats that need to be sorted out
Aside from the poor seats; the lack of space for luggage (or bicycles) is absurd, compared to the old trains which already struggled in the Summer. Having once been at the end of the quiet carriage with a suitcase and then finding I'd have to get through the length of the carriage past standing passengers and other cases in the aisle. It's fairly common now for the catering to be suspended due to luggage on the floor.
Paddington to Didcot was just enough or me. Thank heavens it was fast and I don't want to do it again anytime soon. Dreadful. And not helped by the poor track shaking everything to bits.
Lots of these issues are GWR-specific. LNER has four bike spaces per 9-coach set, the buffet is well used and the general condition of the interiors is much better. They also seem to have managed the number of units better...
Indeed, I did mention that I was primarily focussing on GWR.
What's concerning, is that EMR with the class 810's, are to bring these on-line in the new year, with units currently on test on the Old Dalby test track, in Leicestershire. The only seemingly saving grace, is that the seating has been given some thought, with various EG's on display at various EMR stations, Nottingham, Derby, and Sheffield where I have seen them and tried out.
My understanding is that they still went with the cheap design, despite the public feedback.
@@bruceknights8330they did change the seats at least for the EMR trains
The only thing I would change from your recommendation is extend the 5 car class 800 units and use the class 802 on the stopping service. This is because the 802 is more suitable for non electrified workings due to having a more powerful diesel engines and a bigger fuel tank
Theoretically, I would do this. However, there are considerably more 5 car 800s than 802s, and the extra units would probably be necessary.
On my recent trip i found them quite comfortable for the hour ride i took. However, any longer and i would begin to find it uncomfortable. Slightly more padding would make them far nicer. It also appears that they have warmed several lights and the ambience it quite nice. However, the failiures outweighed this as the returning train was cancelled due to cracks and the following train had no operable toilets. They are also far too short for the routes they take. The routes via oxford should be lengthened to 9 cars atleast as there were few unreserved seats.
As another person who frequently gets long distance GWR services- I am in agreement. Having a mixed formation 1st Class would be an interesting trial. However the main sticking point for me at least is that on GWR the catering offer is absolutely woeful. We used to have big, comfortable leather seats and hot food available. Now? All we get are crisps, biscuits and hot drinks while sat in a barely tolerable seat. It's just not good enough for what can potentially be running on a five hour journey, when Avanti and LNER both offer lovely hot meals on similar length services.
It really could be better, yes. An expansion of the Silver Service might be good on high demand trains, rather like TfW has done.
if this was the train I took from Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads then junk them. Very uncomfortable seats, no space for suitcases between the backs of the seats, not enough luggage space, no bins inside the carriages by the seats, the electronic signs for booked seats not working, the signs for the next stopping station not working. These carriages are not fit for purpose. I travel far better on LNER, Northern and Grand Central.
The IET isn't a train to be praised but most of the issues mentioned are not Hitachi's fault. The crack was due to higher than anticipated loads, and was permanently resolved by the installation of additional support. Unlike trains from CAF and Stadler which have endless issues hopeless to be fixed, IETs are kind of a reliable workhorse in Britain, despite poor passenger comfort. Ride quality is a strange issue - I have once ridden on TPE's 802 on ECML and the ride quality was remarkable, while I also have a journey with LNER and that was brutal.
For the interior, Hitachi basically did what they were ordered to - the first batch of IET for GWR was basically DfT with no effort for designing, just picked the cheapest and thinnest one and installed as many as possible. LNER was better, although it is still the iron board seat, there is a bit of Virgin Trains vibe modernised. Lumo and Hull Trains are decent, while Avanti is going to use the seat as the refurbished Pendolino on their 805s and 807s, which I think will provide a similar experience.
The cracking issue hasn't been solved. Worse yet, Hitachi are building the latest trains with the same basic design.
Interesting and thought-provoking. If I am using the service from London to Swansea, I will always book first class at the rear - the 17h44 departure from PAD to SWA has a cunning secret, which GWR seem particularly UN-enthusiastic about advertising- a PULLMAN dining service in the rear car! Bliss! you arrive into Swansea a few hours later (as the underfloor diesel engines throb away after leaving the wires some way back towards Cardiff) in great shape for a Welsh weekend.
The Pullman is great, it should really run on more trains.
The DfT specified the seats as they are the "experts" in the needs of the intercity travellers. Would British Rail have made so many mistakes in procurement? No, many of the trains that they built are still running today.
It is hard to understand why Hitachi have made so many cock-ups in these trains as they have had an excellent reputation for previous construction. I have worked on Hitachi built machinery in the past and never had any issues with quality or reliability. Again, it could be down to the DfT specifications, with Hitachi just building what the customer wanted, rather than the people who actually get to use the trains.
GWVillager, your suggestions make good sense, so for that reason, they will be ignored!
Someone mentioned that they actually got built at an Italian plant that had gone brancrupt before Hitachi bought them out, Austria having returned their trains to that factory due to build issues. Might explain it, but then why didnt the DFT return them also?
I read a comment from an actual Hitachi employee in Newton Aycliffe that they had nothing to do with the interior and he was sick of all the xenophobic comments towards the company when they had to work with the budget the DfT specified.
@@B-A-LAs I said in my original comment that Hitachi have had an excellent reputation, so your reply about the Hitachi employee makes very good sense. I would not trust the DfT with any transport, let alone trains.
Firstly- First Class at the weekend GWR offer upgrades to first for a fee, the rest of the train could be packed, so why not just reduce first class increase standard class. Next agree with the stupid 5 car versions, I have seen them arrive at Reading and be crammed, only for a 9 car to arrive two minutes later empty, all trains need to have more seats and be at least 9 cars. plus 2 x 5 car sets - no was on one of these out of Paddington the rear set standing room only, front set empty - passenger running to catch the train end up in the rear unit and can not get to the front unit. Likewise on a 9 car train leaving late, same thing front three cars were empty yet people standing in the back 4 cars, of course people do not walk through if the people in next car are also standing- but trolley service can not operate in these conditions either. - what happens when the routes are fully electric the trains must need a refit to remove the diesel power units?
Good to see mention of the excessively stark, cold white lighting. This is a plague on many UK trains now. The GWR IETs aren't even the worst offenders.
I just realized how posh gwvillager's accent is
considering all of the flawed train fleets that came out of the Pistoia factory while it was still operating as Ansaldo Breda, any work that can be kept away from that location would be a bonus
Agreed. The seats definitely needed to be replaced as well as better window alignment. Wireless charging can be installed in table seats like the Class 390. By the way, what is the name of the standard class seats Lumo and Avanti use for their 80x units?
The Transcal Vision.
I can only comment on behalf of the managers of these types of projects who have gone to great efforts to produce a "World Claaas" service:
Firstly, they will note that the presentation of this video is significantly better than any official ones.
Secondly, they will by now have the name and full details of the presenter and any people associated with him.
Thirdly, I assume a pay-off has been attempted and this excellent presenter won't budge ?
Fourthly, each and every failure outlined in this video will now have had a paper produced and associated audit trails to prove that the decisions made were the best possible at the time.
Fifthly, the credibility of this person or team will be being undermined, something that I have always found project managers are far better at doing than their real job.
Sixthly, any associated or supporting text will be denigrated, including this offering on the grounds of it being too flippant.
I would guess that in 3 or so years time when all these proposals or near equivalents could have been implemented we will be lucky to have seen more than 50% of all effort and resource had been spent on the improvements rather than attacking the expert proposals we see demonstrated in this, (one of the very best videos on TH-cam ever), intelligent, structured and compelling documentary.
Oh I just predicted the seat type
I quite like what Hitachi have built the Class 800, Class 801, Class 802 and Class 803 AT300 IETs. And with Class 805, Class 807 and Class 810 to be built. And perhaps Hitachi should continue on manufacturing more new AT200 Commuter trains and the AT100 Metro trains.
Only a minor thing but please can they make it so you have to confirm your seat reservation an hour or so before departure. At the moment the system is a mess. Lots of people reserve seats because why the hell not, you're probably not going to catch that train but if you do you'll definitely have a seat. In my experience over half of seat reservations are never actually used so people ignore the fancy electronic signs and if you actually have a reservation you have to cheese someone off by asking them to move out of your seat.
Personally I've always thought seat reservations were a dumb idea anyway but if you're going to have them either charge a nominal amount like £2 per reservation so people don't book them when they're unlikely to need them, or have a confirmation system.
As a user of HSTs including the prototype unit, I naively assumed these wonderful new Japanese designed units would be even better. What a disappointment, shake, rattle and roll just like BR train of the 50s and 60s.
The bike arrangement on these trains is woeful to say the least. As for the seating, it’s even worse now that a year go, a metal bar digs into your bum, tolerable if your going as far as Reading, not so if your going any further
I've used the others, and my experience is the same, to the point I've now chosen to use the Car now. ide rather see class52s back far more comfortable
I think the LNER IETs are better than the GWR ones but Lumo's 803s are my favourite ones.
in my opinion for longer train formation's like 9 car services they should use pendilino 390
Why? One of the defining characteristics of the Pendolini is the tilt, which is unnecessary on the much straighter GWML. It would also be no use on any route other than Paddington to Cardiff, which runs just 9 journeys a day.
To force GWR to up their game and pay some attention to passenger comfort on their trains, we need an open access operater using locomotive hauled coaches to give them some competition.
That’s terrible! I haven’t even travelled on them yet 😢
They already are decent trains. It's only overly obsessive and mostly elderly train enthusiasts that dont like them.
I was shocked to see how bad the condition of these IETs are, they're not exactly old and yet I've already seen multiple instances of fittings literally rusting off these things.
It does seem the diesel engine fitted to class 800s is underpowered. One of the best improvements the government can make is electrification of the great western line west of Reading. From what I've heard, the seats need to be changed to something fitted in the mark 3 coaches. By the sounds of it, the suspension needs to be changed too.
Why the contract wasn't awarded to a British company I wish I knew. It seems the government are happy to send money overseas rather than support our own workers. I would imagine Doncaster or Crewe works would have done a better job.
The GWML is electrified West of Reading, the wires go all the way to Cardiff. They ought to extend to Swansea, Bristol and Oxford, though.
The IETs were (mainly) built in Britain, at the Newton Aycliffe plant. There were several other international factories involved, but there isn’t an enormous amount of from-scratch manufacturing capability in Britain left - Crewe works closed long ago, only Derby remains now. As for why it couldn’t be awarded to a British company, well there are none left! Derby couldn’t be selected as their then owners (Bombardier, who are Canadian) didn’t have any high speed products on offer.
@@GWVillager I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me.
The interior on all the Azumas just looks cold and sterile, way too bright, way too much white. Though that seems to be a common theme on all the Hitachi A-Trains, even as far back as the 395s. I'm traveling to the UK in February and will likely be taking Avanti up to Crewe and am hoping I end up on a Pendolino rather than one of their new 805s haha.
You won’t have to worry, the 805s won’t be in intensive service by then. It’s possible they won’t even have started their initial Birmingham diagram.
HS2 will show up these horrible Victorian era trunk line trains. Hopefully even the severly amputated HS2 will build concensus to build more International High Speed Guage track in future allowing trains that have some space in them for better designs, long after we are all dead probably though.
Some very good suggestions there. I hope I'm wrong, but sadly I can't see them happening in the current climate.
They are awful. I have been travelling between Neath and Paddington for over sixty years. These are the worst trains we've ever suffered. Very uncomfortable seats, rough riding, noisy, very noisy between Neath and Cardiff, no catering, often not enough coaches - these trains are total rubbish.
They should take inspiration from the swiss SOB from my person experience the SOB traverso intercity variant is gorgeous in the interior and in my experience still in a great condition
I had the displeasure if riding on one of TPEs 80x trains from Manchester to Preston a few weeks ago. Crashy ride. Ironing board seat. Uncomfortable for a half-hour ride, I imagine agonising for a long-haul train
It could have been better and cheaper if they just reuse the seats from the HSTs. Those seats are barely 20 years old, but still more comfortable than the rock hard Sophia seats
I do not think that replacing all the 5 car trains with 9 car trains is a good idea as for the cotsworlds route and the penzance to gloucester and cardiff routes dont tend to be full up with 4 coaches. Of course this would mean a lot more capacity but just money wasted. I think that the 5 car trains should only be reserved for stopping services and joining both 5 car sets together to form 10 coaches. So I dont really see a problem with more 5 car sets than 9 car sets. I think that the problem you talked about was just bad stock management from GWRs part or maybe GWR needs more IETs.
As I said in the video, only the 5 car 802s would be lengthened. The 36 800/0s would remain 5 car.
No FGW Are Not Allowed IETs Even Just Having ONE Is Bad Enough Having More Would Make Passenger's Abandon Rail Travel
The simple answer is yes if Hitachi was given the budget and the responsibility for building the entire train including the interior. You only have to look at the 885 Series Kamome train in Kyushu that is from the same family as the Class 800 to see what an interior should look like when you spend the right amount of money in the first place!
885 series in Kyushu are assembled in Japan while our 800 and 802 are assembled in UK. Maybe this is the reason
The castle sets are far better from Paddington to Cardiff. A Charles Collett masterpiece built at Swindon, hauling 10 coaches.
This is more to do with service patterns than the IETs themselves but I think it's worth having more trains skip Reading. Many trains get delayed simply because the mainline between Paddington and Reading is loaded with London-Berkshire commuters. If more intercity trains skipped Reading it would allow the mainline to flow more freely and trains going long distance would have less overcrowding. Obviously most trains should still stop because Reading is an important hub but it would make it more pleasant for passengers travelling straight to London from the westcountry if more trains skipped that stop. Also trains to Hereford and Worcester should skip Slough (not just because it's a shithole haha).
We no longer call at Slough. ☺️ we lost it in the May timetable, we’re fast to Reading, Oxford then onto Worcester, Malvern or Hereford now.
@@TheFlying800 Oh, good. Leave them with the Elizabeth line. 😂
The coaches with "stockier" bogies are just as rough as the other coaches on 80*.
How about not carrying bikes. Why should passengers loose seating to cycles?
The hub and spoke model combining train for the longer stretch and cycling for the local section is the most efficient form of transport out there. Of course if you could just hire a bicycle at every station in the UK it would be even better.
Poor uncomfortable replacement for the old hst and the class 91 225s with their mark 4 coaches
These trains are Sisters to HS1 High Speed services to Kent which are a comfortable ride on HS lines but once on Kent Coast lines you feel difference. Clearly moving this family of trains on the classic U.K. high speed line was too soon maybe because they did not want to speed the money on the former fleet. I’ve not come across these comments on either East Coast and Lumo trains so maybe their fleets have had a lot of these niggles ironed out through appraisals of the GWR fleet.
Love your shit! Keep it up!
It disappoints me as a Hitachi fan, especially as they make the E8 Shinkansen and E657 trains a lot better than this, thus the 395 too. I feel that these trains can't sustain high speed at 200 km/h since their fastest A-Train in Japan goes only 130. Since it is also has many parts from the commuter stock too, it's not reliable for these uses. However, interior wise is chosen by the operator, not Hitachi themselves which I can defend Hitachi but yea their reliability is questionable, a lot worse than J-TREC's E233-3000 which has Hitachi built motors too. Hitachi makes better trains in Japan than the UK but again, it is built in the UK. If it was built in Japan, reliability would be a different story too. However, I still like this train as it resembles a lot of Japanese trains, if you go to Japan and ride the E657, E259, E233-3000, E531 and the E8 Shinkansen, it would be memorable, heck even the commuter Sotetsu 20000 series is a high quality built commuter train by Hitachi. But yea the 800 series, idk about that.
Some of the earlier units were built in Japan, and most of the 802s were built in Pistoia, Italy. Not that many are actually built in Britain, interestingly.
@@GWVillager Ah I see, well are the Japanese built ones more reliable? No idea yet.
@@rayyan6515The Italian factory was also building unreliable trains for other operators outside of the UK, Hitachi was strangely hostile to the UK operators changing the interior, I think it was just a case of GWT being weak and not insisiting on their own design.
The fastest A-trains only go 130km/h in Japan because of the track not the train design.
@@B-A-LYe that’s true…
I’m not sure what it’s like elsewhere on the network, but first class between London and Penzance is pretty heavily used, I’m not sure cutting it back further would be a good idea.
Fixing the ride and the seats really needs to be a priority; I can’t work on the IETs when they are at speed simply because the train shakes and rattles so much; especially on the section of line between Taunton and Castle Cary.
The seats in FC are slightly more comfortable than those in standard for long trips, but I miss the old leather seats on the 125s.
As I said, first class would only be cut in size on the remaining 5 car trains. All Intercity services would be formed of 9 cars, which would retain the same amount of first.
@@GWVillager that would be good news - now let’s hope they can stop putting 2 * 5 cars on the Penzance route. Keep up the good work!
The concept of a long vehicle with a short wheelbase, plus small diameter wheels, is asking for bad ride quality and damage to the track.
Personally I would be happy to travel in a Mark One running on B4 bogies the speed they were designed for. A cheap and cheerful train that does everything that is necessary
Change seats. Dim the bloody lights please.
The IET’s suck. Period. Had the misfortune to travel on the LNER ‘Azuma’ version. Awful hard seating, awful over bright glaring lighting. Atrocious ride quality shaking everything inside, and I mean everything. Cramped awkward toilets. Badly fitting trim. Awful levels of external wind noise. Changed onto a EMR Voyager halfway through my journey and wow what a difference in refinement. Decent ride, noise isolation, seat comfort etc..
Knowing this country I expect the gwr units were built to a price ,then spend more money bringing them up to the standard they should have been in the first place
Well that has never happened before on British railways. A mad dash for something new and unproven then an awfully long ad expensive putting things right period.
HSTs are new and unproven are they? Even the hacked and amputated HS2 line will show up the DFTs ineptitude in managing the railways, maybe thats why they have spent so much energy making sure HS2 doesnt get built.
@@suburbia2050 I really meant the switch from steam. I actually agree the HST is still better than a lot of new stuff but look at all the failed diesel class locos that were touted better than steam
@@bradpalmer2914 well we were still running steam trains when other countries had electrified their networks in the hopeless belief that a road network and aviation industry could replace the efficiency of the train! We still haven't electrified the network nor built dedicated track to segregate inter city passenger traffic from freight.
Pleased you commented on the bike spaces. Not fit for purpose.
I should make a greater version of the iets
This video could be replicated on the 195s.......truly awful trains.
I unfortunately don’t think there’s much that could be done with them. To be honest, the low bar of what they replaced makes them a little more tolerable.
@@GWVillager Pacers were litterally the worst..
Though i have yet to see any on the durham coast line, only got older sprinter units that were freed up by the 195's which is still a net plus.
The more I read the comments below, the less likely I am to want to travel on a long distance British train again.
There is a lot of hyperbole in the comments, long distance train travel in Britain is actually rather good on the whole.