GWR's New Battery Powered Train
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.พ. 2025
- You've got a fast charge, I want a ticket to go anywhere (as long as it’s on the Greenford branch).
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"Current test runs", "Potential", "Electrification", Jago, you are a wizard wordsmith.
Jago is definately a cunning linguist 😂😂😂
@@TheDriller-Killer 🫣😱
I just hope there's not too much resistance to these plans, I'm really amped for them.
@TheDriller-Killer Reminds me of when I referred to the TH-cam comments section as 'mass debating'...
He's a proper bright spark.
the third rail seems to be a visually cleaner solution than what we do here in germany. our battery trains are basically normal emu's with an extra battery pack and are therefore charged with a length of overhead wire put up for that purpose
Here in America we're getting trains for Chicago and the Bay Area that will operate in the same manner. In they Bay area the train will charge while in electrified territory and via a charging substation at the far end of the non-electrified territory. I suspect they my well be same trains: Stadler FLIRTs and KISSes
@@BIoknight000 There's actually some of these Class 230s in Pennsylvania for testing.
@@BIoknight000in Ottawa CAN we got diesel FLIRTS to replace the older Talents on the extended north/south heavy rail transit service. Hopefully at some point they may be able to go over to battery/electric at some point, but given the problems they are having with the new east/west light rail overhead electric system, they’ve got their hands full.
tbqh, that's the easiest solution because you can use those same trains as you would normally under wire and use the batteries only when necessary. Modern trolley buses are basically the same. Smaller battery, continuous charging, runs mostly under wire in core sections or where more lines meet, on battery toward the end of the line.
no need to reinvent the wheel with overcomplicated solutions
@@Play_farethat’s a problem with the rolling stock being a tram vehicle heavily modified to run a metro service than anything about electrical systems, plus the Trillium line isn’t double tracked in some areas
The concept I have long wanted is battery trains on routes that are partially electrified, e.g. Reading to Redhill. The train could charge when running on electrified sections, then use battery on the non electrified sections. No new infrastructure and no fast-charging required.
We're doing that here in America with Caltrain's new BEMU
I may be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that they want to do something like that if they manage to expand the Merseyrail network so would be bi-mode hybrids.
@@Pesmog They are doing it on Merseyrail already, on the new extension from Kirkby to Headbolt Lane
@@norbitonflyer5625 aye but is that "fastcharge" ?
Wishful thinking, they'll never willingly put money into the Reading line until absolutely necessary
Thank you, that's a good solution for branch lines, like Slough - Windsor, Maidenhead - Bourne End - Marlow etc.
I also like/love the fact that these are repurposed Tube trains and really hope that the technology is transferable to 'heritage' rail stock so that it can enjoy a new/second life for coming generations to enjoy?!
I'm sure that Mr I. K. Brunel would approve, he was great at thinking 'outside the box', but with his feet firmly on the ground, just look at the legacy he's left us!
He tried building a railway using vacuum pipes for Pete's sake!
That only failed. Because the rats were eating the leather pads soaked oil to keep the pads soft,@@lloydcollins6337
A man never afraid to try something novel, even on a large scale. I forget who it was who said, “make no little plans”.
The repurposed Tube train happened to be handy as a test bed. A whole fleet would probably be new build.
What happened to the one that was used on the Bedford to bletchley line, the GWR unit on test is that the unit that was build at long Marston,
Excellent analysis of a very interesting development. And I appreciated the shout out for the late, great Adrian Shooter, a true railway innovator.
Surely it would be a good idea to have one of these charging points at a few of the stations so that if there is a "delay" or an unexpected low power situation, they can top up instead of blocking the line.
Yes, but also this is the Greenford branch. There's only one train in service at a time
And the whole branch is less than 3 miles long.
It's perfect for a trial to work through all the issues without investing in multiple sets of kit than might not be the final spec.
slowly developing. Hope they can figure out the fast charge and reliability/safety issues for high-power batteries.
@@Carlos-im3hnA short branch with just three intermediate small halts is probably an ideal "test bed."
that's really not such a bad idea at all.
most branch lines.rural lines are operating on a stop/start stop/start basis.
it wouldn't be beyond the bounds of possibility to drop a contact shoe to top up as and when the doors are opened and closed. might only be a minute of charge here and there, but it would work as an extender making good use of dwell time....and give the train 10 minutes to fully charge at either end.
So pleased to see this after following for many years, this is a wonderful piece of reuse and upgrades on traffic
I was a spotty school kid when the D78 trains were introduced on the District line. They seemed like space age technology after the 1930s CP stock. Imagine bare aluminium trains with straight sides 😃 and buttons for passengers to open the doors 🤩. Wow! I loved them 😀.
Notes. Many new batteries don’t contain and RE materials like lithium or cobalt. They’re just heavier as a result. Not so much an issue on a train. Battery / electric trains can add power to their battery or the grid through braking, which diesels waste. Managed correctly, a battery can last a very very long time. Electricity, particularly that charged at off peak times, like these will be from their fixed line side battery will generally use stored energy farmed through sustainable sources.
I dont recall where I saw it but I understand that these units can feed power back to the batteries through regenerative braking.
@@adrianbaron4994Most modern EMU stock can do this, as it saves wear on mechanical brakes. The problem crops up when you have AC electrification, as the power put back into the wire must match the phase timing of the supply. It's difficult, but modern power electronics can manage that.
@@SynchroScoreAnd don't forget, most domestic and industrial solar inverters do exactly that to feed power into the grid.
Amounts of cobalt needed in (Lithium) battery production have dropped drastically over the past 15 years - which is more than you can say for quantities consumed in oil refineries, which be it noted cannot be recycled.
If you've ever wondered, Cobalt's purpose in batteries is fire prevention and the reduction in consumption is the result of design evolution. At end of battery life, metals are recoverable.
"Plug Life Television" - of this parish - covers many aspects of battery tech in detail.
@@GodmanchesterGoblin Yes, since the technology is easy nowadays. I'm just saying that a number of AC powered rolling stock had dynamic braking, even after regenerative braking became common for DC stock, because of the difficulty in phase matching. Now that just about all AC stock uses inverter drives, matching the phase is much simpler.
Id would have thought Brunel would be fascinated by the engineering. Electricity wasnt really a big thing in his day (unless you knew someone who flew kites in thunderstorms) so this would have really peaked his curiosity.
*piqued
Since you ask ...... Benjamin Franklin and Bart Simpson.
Brunel would have been familar with at least some form of electricity. The GWR first installed an electric telegraph line in 1839.
@@kcnmsepognln Damn'. Beat me too it.
Batteries and electric motors existed in the early 19th century and someone had used an electric motor and battery to cross a river in 1838 with a boat full of 14 people. So i suspect Brunel would be more like , oh that technology went somewhere, rather then any big surprise.
I saw that parked in West Ealing sidings at the weekend, it’s perfect for these little branch lines.
Some amazing shots. Well done Jaganonies!
Adrian Shooter, a railwayman legend. RIP.
I really think this idea is one of the greatest in railway history. Even though I’m from Australia, I really do think this technology could work on many branch lines like the looe valley line and even some lines in east anglia. Great work on covering the content Jago I love your work.
There is (I kid you not) a solar powered emu running at Byron Bay Railway NSW. Clips exist on YT.
... It's fundamentally inferior to overhead wire in every practical respect save setup cost.
@@laurencefraserit's a proof of concept, not even a production prototype.
What an excellent concept! Thanks for the video.
I was quite disappointed when these trains were withdrawn from service on the Bletchley to Bedford line so its great to see them again. Now I know why I saw 230001 when on the Lizzy line last Friday.
They operate on the Birkenhead to Bidston Line.
They were (not very successfully) diesel powered then, so quite a rebuild since!
Not dissimilar to the light rail in Newcastle (Australia) where the trams are battery powered and recharge during stops with an overhead bar which the pantograph connects to, topping up the battery.
The pantograph would also allow them to operate on a longer line with overhead, and I suspect that might happen in the future, i.e. from the present Interchange terminal to the University using the original Wallsend trams reserved track reservation which still exists.
Fascinating stuff Jago. It's a relief the idea didn't die with Adrian Shooter.
Developments in both battery tech, control tech and generating mean the concept is far more advanced than for the GSR/Drumm battery trains once employed on the ex-Dublin & South Eastern commuter services.
Actually, I reckon the aforementioned Dr.James Drumm's work is deserving a clip all of his own.
Has anyone considered electifying a Pacer or two? OK ... I'll just get my coat .....
Only if the battery is guaranteed inflammable.
[Edit : plus the pacers have mechanical transmission, not electric. There's basically nothing to reuse except the actual wheelset.]
@@jonathanj8303Guaranteed? Name me a 100% incident free technology. Even microwavable porridge.can go wrong Battery fires seem to have come down to one of two issues, viz faulty battery terminal or incompatible charger. I don't seek to downplay the seriousness of such fires, merely commenting that competences should improve as operation becomes more a matter of routine. It's undeniable that those sections of the press who sensationalise EV fires don't bother with ICE vehicle fires .... or correcting headlines when a blaze turned out NOT to have been at an electric bus station but the diesel one next door. It's happened!
On transmission: true ... but recall the BEMU (preserved on the Royal Deeside Rly, currently operated as hauled stock) was a heavily modified Gloucester dmu .... mech transmission, those. Perhaps the extra weight might even calm the Pacer's "interesting" ride a tad ... well, that and I WAS joking (or was I?).
As predictably as unfortunately, none of the Irish GSR/Drumm bemus survive.
Wait I can't believe I a northener I'm gonna defend the pacers but maybe they with drawn on safety grounds but hopefully they could
Or the old Tyne and Wear Metro cars be used on the Moorthope line on the WY Metro
@@sglenny001 it might work mechanically with the ex T&W metrocars, they're nice and simple DC machines, though they might need new power electronics, I'm not sure they have regen as-is. But they're also basically worn out and on borrowed time waiting for the new Stadler stock. If you took the best ones to Yorkshire, there'd be nothing left to put in a museum...
@@TheHoveHeretic I'm ASKING for an inflamable battery, to help rid the world of pacers. But I'm also joking.
Realistically, "yes" you could rebuild one with all new electric drivetrain plus a battery prime mover. But why do so when there's plenty of second hand electric stock available as a better basis, most of it much nicer to ride in and safer too? The ex-Vivarail 78 D stock, 319's, 322 family etc (I think most 322's are now scrapped, but I imagine the 321's won't be in squadron service that much longer).
It kind of reminds me of a project I saw once to build a hydrid from a Faur L35H metre gauge loco - someone had already committed and bought the loco. The things have hydraulic transmission (ie no use for the project) and a 1960's design Romanian diesel that's not worth the bother of even putting up for an emissions test. The only bits that might be useful were the basic chassis and wheels, and those were in scrap condition.
Australia currently produces 47% of the world’s lithium. While we don’t have perfect mining practices, I’m pretty sure we are better than say whatever happens in Saudi Arabia or Russia to produce diesel.
Yes, or the images of cobalt mining. In is no longer used in batteries, but is used to desulfur fossil fuels.
australia sure, but it's a different story in the congo
Do you mine it all without using fossil fuels?
@@davelowe1977 It's slowly happening, though most of the mining sectors focus (at least in the west) is reducing the primary environmental impact rather than decarbonising
@@biscuit715 that's actually sensible.
Love the packed lunches and water at 1:57.
I was strangely drawn to the big red button.
Jago's moving up in the world. He's now getting a free sandwich and bottle of water
Interesting. I immediately thought of the Epping Ongar line when I first saw this train on the news.
Grreeeaaahhh this is the coolest bit of train tech I've seen in years! Faster can only do so much, increasing accessibility, reducing costs and providing better service is where the real rail innovation is!
That’s an interesting development. Great to see Greenford taking part in the trials. Let’s hope it’s a great success. It would be good to see these trains on the Twyford - Henley branch line. 👍😀
Yes, especially as none of the branches off the main line have been wired up, and most are fairly short. (An exception is Par to Newquay, of course, but they haven't got round to wiring up the main line down there yet!)
I think thats why GWR invested twenty -five million in basically buying the battery train part of Vivarail. The technology is ideal for short branch lines serving leafy , green - oriented and affluent places like Henley and Marlow.
Don't forget the new Merseyrail class 777s are battery operation from Kirkby to Headbolt Lane station.
Yeah, found it so weird that he just omitted that completely lol.
@@actuallyneon it's a slightly different concept, more about extending largely-electrified lines into non-electrified sections. Those BEMUs charge a lot more slowly, and still run directly off of the third rail most of the time. Which is honestly the more sensible thing to do whenever you can, as that'll be a lot easier on the batteries.
I like that they're testing it on this short branch. I have liked the diversity of front designs for this branch/GWRs.
Indeed, that first battery-powered locomotive was Stafford in TTTE.
I am quite fascinated for the old district line train, refurbished.
Dear Jago, that was a really well rounded review, I would say. You nailed down all the pro and cons in a really objective and logical way. I know why I keep coming back to your channel.
This would make excellent sense on the Scarborough to York shuttle. It's lowish speed has few stops and could comfortably stop for a mid way 'top up' at Malton, for 4 minutes.
Yea hopefully reopening the Scarborough to Whitby
Would be nice but not possible. The track has been built on. fkn idiots.
It's not that long ago since Scarborough had an all day hourly direct main line service to West Yorkshire and across the Pennines to Manchester and Liverpool. Now we are reduced to a shuttle to and from York meaning you have to change trains if you are going beyond. Don't give the authorities another excuse to not re-instate day long through services.
The loco hauled services with the class 68 were very good but the hotel owners near the station at Scarborough kept complaining that the Caterpillar engines on the locos were far too loud when left on idling in the station, and also that the new coaches that were used with them starting getting cracks in and around the wheels (bogies). So they have had to be withdrawn into storage. This all lead to Trans Pennine Express only having the class 185 units to use on the route witch are also used for Cleethorpes so they must think its a better place to go to.@@michaelgeraghty4981
@@neiloflongbeck5705 It probably wouldn't. Steep gradients, heavy holiday overloads, never mind very costly re-instatement investment.
I love this! It has the potential to really revolutionise rural train connections.
I remember riding a tram in Nanjing about ten years ago that used a similar system of charging onboard batteries at stops.
"You are the charging rail to my battery." Always love how Jago does these lines - and quite pleased I managed to guess this one in advance!
Thanks Jago, that was interesting & in my case I would never have guessed that was an old choo choo from the tube !
"Eliminate diesel traction from the National Network by 2040". Best of luck with the West Highland lines in Scotland, then.
It’s a literally impossible task. The only way to eliminate diesel trains by 2040, would be to remove the 60 percent of unnelectrified railway altogether.
Hmm that sounds familiar.
😂 they want to electrify the ECML! They are BEMU electrifying the Fife circle right now so we'll see how that works out first I reckon! 🤦♂️✋️🛑🫸
Pretty sure ScotRail have discussed using battery-electric trains for those regions for a few years now.
There was a brief consultation about using hydrogen-powered trains (I imagine largely lobbied-for by Hitachi et al) but it seems that, as so often happens with hydrogen, the extra infrastructure it'd require has made running recharge-points to certain stations for batteries more feasible, more quickly.
Went to School next to Castle Bar Park back in the 80s when the bubble xares class 121 and 122s worked the branch. Didn't learn much just watching the trains all day. Done decadeson the Railway now.
I took a day trip from Scarborough with my kids in the early 1980s, just to ride the bubble cars . . .
I remember going between the overhead wires 'on batteries' on a trolleybus in Kingston. Just thought I'd mention it.
Me too. At Wood Green - I think.
And more modern light rail, such as the one to replace the illegally ripped up heavy rail line to Newcastle city in Australia (no Act to remove it was passed) charges capacitors off a metal bar above each stop, plus it can crawl to the depot on batteries. Shortest commuter LR in the world, all because the RWNJ "Liberals" wanted to sell the only land in the city not undermined to their developer donor mates. Canberra's, run by the Australian Capital Territory government (Labor-Green alliance (coalition is a filthy word in Australia politics)), will have batteries retrofitted for the extension, as the federal agency for the area around parliament spat the dummy on overhead on part of the southern extension. Thinking out loud, said dummy spit would have been under the RWNJ Liberals (Territory Libs threatened to destroy the original project when it was already underway). Labor is now in. Maybe they can recover the dummy.
i'd love to see such a battery powering system in combination with the already existing third rail network(s) in the uk. that would open possibilities for completely new lines!
Excellent initiative! I want to see this used more on trams, partly for aesthetic reasons (wires in the air aren't pretty) but also for reduced maintenance, almost every disruption to traffic is that a wire has malfunctioned or been hit by a truck or damaged by a careless crane driver, or a digger etc.
Be good down our way, especially on the Severn Beach Line or on the proposed spur to Gravity when that's finished.
Thanks
And thank you!
There's quite a few examples of this in Japan, some of which I went out of my way to ride on. It's definitely an ideal solution to keep branch lines open for the social benefits and keeping costs down, yet without significant drawbacks.
I am a regular at Bristol Temple Meads station. In the summer, when it was hot and there was no wind the diesel fumes were choking. The work on the main shed roof did not help reducing the effective height. Must be worse for the staff. I could move away from trains sitting at platforms with engines running, but they can’t always. (during covid one London train would sit at the platform for over an hour with the engines running) There are blocks of flats close to the platforms, and more student accommodation is being built next to the station. (How much student accommodation does Bristol need?)The fumes can’t be good for people living there.
I am not into climate panic, but anything that helps clean up the air gets my support.
This is a great idea. It sounds ideal for the many branch lines across the UK and elsewhere. I really hope it works.
It did/does work. Used them on the Bedford to Bletchley line until Viva rail went under and London North western got rid of them. The units are not too bad in Wales either used them from Wrexham to Bidston. The layout seams a bit strange as the seating in most areas seams to be in bays of 4 with glass panels sectioning them off, as if it was designed for covid and they could not be bothered to alter them.
Some notes,there have battery buses using the fast charger type systems running for some years,so the validity of the idea is sound! The real test,is how they can handle heavy snow/rain events,and deal with out of course broken rails,etc.,as those problems crop up,on a sometimes yearly basis! However,may this experiment be successful as,the world does need a heavy duty rethink about public transportation! Thank you Jago,and the power of the Press goes forward! Thank you 😇 😊!
It's also used in the Norwegian fjords.
Good to see the reconditioned old District Line trains still in syndication 👏🏾🚉
GREENFORD MENTIONED ❤❤❤❤❤❤
Congratulations, GWR DfT, battery-powered passenger rail. Half a century later than Seaton Tramway first operated it successfully in the 70s...
And a mere 95 years after the Great Southern over in Ireland. 🙂
Just to point out a few things.... Coal is only used for 1.6% of UK power production and will he phased out by this October... But even if the national grid was 100% coal, the GWR battery train would still have a smaller carbon footprint than a class 165.
Secondly lithium mining... Clearly there are other ways of extraction of lithium than just mining, but it has a lower carbon footprint than oil extraction (and unlike oil, you can recycle lithium when you are done with it).
I thought the same, because of the terrible inefficiency of the internal combustion engine compared to electricity generated at a power station.
Plus, even for energy dense applications, lithium is not the only architecture. The sheer pace of current battery development is breathtaking.
@@TheHoveHeretic yes, yet they still have reliability and safety issues.
I waited for you to confirm it used to be a District Line Train.
I saw one in one of the "siding branches" as I was coming into Reading once, only one. Others around it were normal trains (not the high speed ones).
GWR missed a trick not putting the transverse single seats back in the carriages from the old District Line trains. Ahhh sweet solitude...
Thank you!
That's genuinely quite cool, it charging in four minutes feels so bizzare to me so I hope it works
If you have good temperature regulation, you can have excellent charging speed without too much wear on the batteries. These batteries like to be about body temperature.
I personally do think that Great Western Railway should allow the battery powered trains to work on the Slough-Windsor & Eton Central, Maidenhead-Bourne End-Marlow and Twyford-Henley-on-Thames branch lines and to test run them if they could be allowed to operate on those branch lines in Berkshire.
the Slough-Windsor line is very short ngl might as well make it 3rd rail since it wouldn't be that much more costly and allows for old BR stock to be dumped onto there.
@@davidty2006The Department for Transport no longer allows new 3rd rail. Not even if extending existing third rail by a couple of miles.
Yeah you are right. Would be better to have battery powered trains on smaller branch lines that can’t be electrified or can’t afford to get electrified.
Great video! Sorry I didn’t get to meet you on Friday but thanks for coming and getting the video up. Mark
The manufacturer shipped one of those over here (the US) saying they were going to do demonstrations around the country but so far it’s just been sitting in a shed at a trolley museum.
As a side note, the charging rails look exactly like the charging rails for the trains in Miniland at LEGOLAND and it is messing with my mind
I didn't know about this. A great concept well presented.
congrats GWR, great idea... 👍
This is really exciting, let's hope the tests are successful and it really takes off.
I was thinking recently about GWR disruptions when Old Oak Common gets built. Had there been electrification on the tiny connection at Reading between GW mainline and the line to Waterloo, or on the Basingstoke line, they could run the dense capacity dual voltage 387s to Waterloo as a diversion instead of the first-class-heavy, non-third-rail IETs, which is the current idea, which is far less efficient as a diversion. Battery technology would’ve been great for stuff like this, bypassing oddball tracks in unusual scenarios to improve connectivity.
There was plans for this. Electrification from Southampton to Reading using OLE
Wonderful idea , used on existing lines may make existing uneconomical branch lines a more attractive proposition.
I think we'll see a lot of diesel and combined diesel/external-electric units replaced by battery or battery/external-electric units over the years. Fast-charging every stop (and while connected to overhead/third-rail for combined units) is a lot less infrastructural requirement than fully electrifying a lot of non-electrified rail.
I wonder how all that fast charging will affect battery life?
@@stevenfarrall3942 With the speeds and the current they're talking about, i'm going out on a limb and saying they're using capacitors rather than "batteries", at least in the charging station battery. They don't have the drawback of wearing out like batteries do, and they can accept and discharge MUCH higher currents all at once. The issue with them is that they don't hold a charge like a lithium battery does, and discharge themselves rather quickly (in comparison to lithium cells) unless topped up near constantly.
@@jameshodgetts7541 That's a good point.
You list didn't mention hydrogen fuel cells, which are already very much 'part of the mix'.
The issue slowing adoption here isn't the cells themselves - though heavier than you might expect and employing precious metals - they're now established tech which works well. It's the economic production of clean hydrogen (as opposed to the oil industry's efforts to blow smoke up our collective backside by re-labelling the clean product of their polluting process from "brown" to "blue" hydrogen).
Exciting times!
If for no other reason then a lot of diesel stock is super old so many of the units are due replacement anyway
The new 230s seem really cool, but those seats... they look rock solid
I guess I have two main issues with the concept: (1) the main benefit of electrification as compared with diesel isn’t the reduction in emissions it’s that it increases frequency to not have to refuel the train and constantly maintain the engine, because when you look at the amount of people diesel trains can move and the distance they travel the emissions they produce aren’t particularly concerning as compared with cars or planes. This train doesn’t take full advantage with the fast charging taking time that could be used running and also wasting significant amounts of electricity as fast charging means the battery never reaches 100% capacity and requires constant replacement. As you say this appears to be strategy for branch lines so the frequency issue might not matter but the inefficiency of it will likely need to be addressed further down the line. (2) This solution largely exists because governments are unwilling to invest in rail, it would be interesting to see the amount of money these companies spend trying to develop this technology compared with the estimated costs of electrification. For railways like the GWR which have a lot of third rail they could use overhead electrification when they enter newly electrified areas and third rail when they enter legacy electrified areas as Thameslink does.
Perhaps the main reason I’m wary of this is that it’s solving a problem we already have a solution to. We know how to make trains electric with time tested technology and I worry that given the urgency of climate change spending resources on what *might* work when a solution exists already just because governments are afraid to spend money is kind of a sad microcosm of a lot of the renewables spending governments are engaging in.
You don't ever want the battery to reach 100%. Assuming this is currently using Lithium based cells (rather than sodium, for example), maximum battery life requires not charging to more than around 80 to 85%. Likewise, deep discharge should also be avoided. This increases the available charge cycles by an order of magnitude, or even more for smaller discharges. It was the older nickel based cells that needed to be taken to 100%, but those days are long gone,
This is a most interesting development. Interested to see where it goes from here.
Great video!
would be great to have these on the GWR metro service in Bristol - going back there after living in London for a year and having fast frequent electric trains everywhere, having a single diesel powered branch line running 2 trains per hour feels like such a step away from modernity - at least some for of electrification would be a step in the right direction
Re lithium: there's a technological shift in the winds whereby rechargeable batteries could be made using sodium instead of lithium. It's early days but likely to happen for larger batteries at least, such as for applications like this one. If successful any issues with lithium supply would evaporate, because sodium is everywhere, most notably in sodium chloride sources such as seawater and salt deposits.
I see another Jago video has been uploaded and I just can’t resist watching it.
The first electric trams in Denmark was called syresporvognen, the acid tram. There was a battery under each seat. This consisted mainly of a big tank of acid. There was a sour smell in the trams. This was in the 1890's
i still remember the D stock.. surprised to see it still in use! :D
The rationale for Vivarail was that these redundant D stock units were very well built and although the electrics , seating, controls etc were worn out and obsolete, the body and underframes were sound and could be refitted with standard modular parts to create a modern train at a fraction of the cost of building everything new from scratch.
@@adrianbaron4994 ngl should modernise all the other bits of roling stock.
BR and metro cammell built so much of it might as well use it.
LT had a go at Battery powered tube stock on the line that ran from Finsbury Park thru Stroud Green, Muswell Hill to Ally Pally, (proposed new works, never happened) line in the 1960s. There are somewhere some photos of the train at Crouch End Station.
I guess old lead-acid stuff just fit not hack it.
Maybe a video someday.
Thank you for this one.
But that was just empty stock, trains going to and from Drayton Park for overhaul No passenger services...line closed to passengers in 1954!
@@jeremybuck1818 I remember the old passenger trains, tank engines (N2s) and a couple of coaches. The line ran at the back of the Highlands flats where I lived. It was part of the new works plan, sadly never happened.
I thought that those battery powered trains were some sort of 1960/70s experiment. Obviously not, do you remember it?
The advantage of going Electric, is that as the Grid goes 'Greener', with more Renewable power being generated, then the Trains using it go 'Greener', too ...
There was a Company that was experimenting with fitting Tesla Battery Packs a few years ago, was this them ?
We used to live in Minehead, Somerset, and there was a campaign there to re-open the West Somerset Heritage railway to commuter traffic into Taunton, - and I always thought that Battery trains would be ideal for that !
Brilliant idea! Was thinking potentially they could do this on a wider scale if they installed these charging points at stations. Trains could charge when they stop to pick up passengers. Does seem to have potential.
If they tried, they could make modest stretches of third rail or overhead wires to act like a sling shot of power while moving - much like the water troughs a century ago.
What a diffrance since the 1950s when l travelled the line as a retired GWR We Did it Our Way still reigns well done
Positively electrifying Jago cheers...
You mean they might actually retire the Thames Turbo?! Goodness. They've been going through my local station since I was a child. I don't think I'll ever forget the sound even if they are replaced by a battery train.
I mean the class 165/166 diesel units have got a good while left of their lifespan, they’ll likely be moved down to Bristol/Devon/Cornwall to help replace the ageing sprinter fleet.
Interesting to think that British Railways had a 2-car battery railcar in 1958 on the Deeside line in Scotland. It worked fairly well for about 5 years but then suffered some minor fires and was replaced by a dmu. It went into departmental use and I think still exists somewhere. That was lead acid batteries of course, heavier and slower to charge. Certainly this is well worth trying out to gain experience. Brunel would approve; after all he tried the atmospheric railway and loads of other novel ideas, some more successful than others!
It's still in existence, preserved on the Dufftown railway. Not operational anymore as a powered unit though, as spare pafrts are unobtainable
@@norbitonflyer5625 Thanks for the info. A very appropriate location (though nowadays the Deeside Railway might be even more so).
Except that he pinched the idea of the atmospheric railway from Elon Musk...
@@norbitonflyer5625 Hi Norbiton flyer - not the Royal Deeside Railway? Did it get moved?
@@paulhaynes8045and Stalin invented the steam engine ....
Interestingly it seems that the lead acid battery was invented in the same year that IK Brunel died. Experimental electric vehicles had been built for about 20 years before then, although the first electric train was still many years in the future, it's not unreasonable to think that Brunel may have been aware of the concept.
Appreciate this is an experimental train. It does seem logical however to have combined battery and overhead pick up so that if it is driving on a main line section of track with overhead catenary then it can continue to have electrical power fed directly to the train instead of relying on the battery for the whole journey.
I have seen videos of a similar battery-electric train over in Japan, the EV-E301 series. However, in the Japanese train's case it recharges from an overhead charging station via a pantograph instead, and the pantograph can also be used to power the train directly when it is running over electrified railway lines; GWR's example here is the first I have seen where the train recharges via a third rail, as far as I can remember.
Merseyrail 777s charge via 3rd rail.
As the first engineer to attempt the replacement of steam traction with his atmospheric railway, I have no doubt Brunel would approve!
We have battery trams in Newcastle, Australia. The big advantage is no unsightly overhead wiring as well as cost. They charge for a few seconds at each stop by using a retractable pantograph.
The Southern Region of BR has used batteries on it's Motor Luggage Vans since the late 1950s until the demise of ep stock in the late 90s. This enabled them to detach from the train and venture onto the quays at Folkestone and Dover. They would recharge from the 3rd rail upon their return. They could also run off the juice for a considerable distance. Redhill to Tonbridge was not unknown before it was electrified.
if it works out, we could do with some of these on the Northern network - I live on the Sheffield-Barnsley line, a.k.a. the former Midland Railway, and the multiple low Victorian era bridges and tunnels on the route make installing overhead cables nearly impossible
as the Northern network covers a lot of hilly countryside, this is generally true on all but the most major lines
Tunnels should actually be ok. Many (but not all) of those built in Victorian times were designed to allow smoke ventilation, so this will allow space for wires.
Bridges are more of a problem though. Rebuilding is difficult & disruptive, but lowering the trackbed is even more so.
I regularly use this line between Worksop and Leeds, anything they could do to make that journey more bearable would be welcome. Sometimes it gets so bloody crowded - either by sending two car sets at peak times or those horrible 2+3 layouts - where you cant even stand up - more trains which arnt as terrible as the current units they use would be brilliant. Northern are a massive franchise, but seem to be stuck using ancient, rubbish trains and struggling to provide what they promise with what they have. There have been a few occasions where iv bought a seperate ticket and gone the other way to retford and jumped on a 225 on the ECML rather than spend 90 minutes on a pacer (which thankfully cant happen any more, but the replacements haven't been much better either)
Blimey West Ealing has changed a bit since I used to use it!!
Yeah. Do you remember when platform 4 was the other side of the Argyle Road bridge? Where platform 5 now is used to be a milk train siding.
@@michaelgeraghty4981 Now that was a loooooong time ago!.
At first, I thought it would be the class 484.
Although it has no connection the charging rail immediately reminded me of the old GWR Automatic Train Control ramps 😊
The British national grid is currently about 30% gas fueled. 1% coal, and the rest low carbon of various types (wind, nuclear, solar, hydro) etc. Gas (CCGT) power stations are about twice as efficient as diesel engines, so electric trains already have about 85% lower carbon emissions than diesels.
This would be great idea for short distance existing branch lines like my local the Abbey flyer(Watford to St Albans Abbey). Thank Jago. Think the local council shall be hearing of it.
The Abbey line would have been a possibility had it not already been electrified. But since this has already been done, using it is a better solution than batteries.
The branch lines down here in Devon and Cornwall are significantly longer. It will be interesting to see how well the technology develops to cope with something like the run from Exeter to Barnstaple (or even Bideford if that proposal comes to fruition).
Truro to Falmouth, St Erth to St Ives, Par to Newquay etc
Those old 155’s need retiring soon
@@a1white A-bsolutely
Would be great for my favourite GWR branch line - Liskeard to Looe. You could have a charging point at each end of the line but only one end of the train. (If you know, you know.)
Doesn't the terminus at Looe flood regularly? That would make the third rail very exciting!
But you'd get a free 2-3 minute charge in the middle as well on every trip - especially since the charging point doesn't need to be at an end of the train.
@@iankemp1131 Aye, put it in at Liskard and the station below it !
I'd sincerely love to see these on the Devon and Cornwall branches!
Perhaps also a solution to possible problems with catenary on the Dawlish sea wall?
Thats probably why GWR bought the technology. I wonder if it has the range for the proposed Newquay to Falmouth Cornwall Metro service. GWR say 120 miles is possible on a full single charge.
@@adrianbaron4994 well Jethro tells me that Denzel lives down that line and if you run out of charge he'll let you plug it into his diseasel generator which he bought last November to power his Christmas lights!
That sounds like a lot of engineering on old rolling stock, not just the battery-supplied powertrain but the open gangways and such. I’m curious how much time and money they really saved over just designing an experimental new class. I realize regulatory hurdles in the UK are different / potentially more burdensome than here in the States in some cases, to the point that this decision makes sense. Still, our FRA isn’t exactly light on regulation, railfans are probably familiar with the horns and bells that our trains are mandated to use even when it seems silly. 🤨
"the aim is to eliminate diesel traction from the national rail network by 2040"
Such a good idea to cancel electrification of Cardiff to Swansea! To achieve 2040, they'll pay over the odds for electro-diesels, then have to electrify. Rather than doing it in one go.
Maybe some electro-diesels will see life beyond Swansea? Onward to Carmarthen, Milford Haven, but they will probably be grossly excessive for running what is pretty much a branch line service.
Why did TFW withdraw 769s... stupid
AIUI, 2040 is the date the last diesels will enter service. Whether there's any planned 'last use' date is a separate issue, though natural attrition will, almost by definition, take out the older more polluting stock first.
Hydrogen fuel cell tech will be another variable in the mix. Mitsubishi certainly are making them for PSV and Honda (plus maybe Toyota) have car sized fuel cells already. In the UK, Nottingham University I know are working in this field and the Severn Valley together with the University of Birmingham are converting an 08 (Harrier Hydroshunter last update on SVR YT channel last month).
Nerdishly smiled when I spotted the branch line I used to commute with. A battery operated train would be welcomed by me.
Nice video and also a big solution in rail technology 👍
A few minute's charge is game changing, I assume that other units could be converted in future which opens up lots of possibilities.
Prob explains GWR's crazy high ticket prices!
Nah.... that's the benefits of privatisation, that is. 🙄
This also has good potential for light rail. NJT's River Line, as an example and in the interest of full disclosure I'm on 3x a week, runs through downtown Camden and Burlington into Trenton with diesel power units. Battery power would benefit the line tremendously.
An interesting video.
Thank you for your insight Mr H.
Mid October 2024, the Class 165 diesels are still regularly operating the route. Maybe one day we'll see the battery-operared 230's in regulsr service on the branch.
The Metro in Birmingham already uses Battery power along several sections of its line...
It's certainly an interesting idea and, along with projects such as the Parry People Movers, does have a great deal of potential - it will be interesting to see how it copes in service.