So in *absolute* fairness to Code of Honor, what I believe it was *trying* to do (though I would agree missing the mark completely) was a "just because people *seem* more primitive doesn't make them less intelligent or complex and you should respect their customs" sort of a lesson. That's what those seeming contradictions with them having the super advanced medicine was about. But yeah, it was pretty bad.
the prime directive isnt just invoked for developing cultures, its also a non interference policy for non federation worlds that they are not at war with or non allied to, so even to warp species, they cannot just grant them much technology, in voyager this happens a lot with janeway refusing to give multiple hostile species federation technology and i think she invokes the prime directive with that
i think its abiut not f**ding with other civilizations. if they dont have warptech you are not allowed to evrn establish contact. if they do, you can have contact, but you arent allowed to just do whatever
Yeah a major part of voyager is Janeway could’ve foregone Starfleet regulations and morals to avoid so much trouble on their way home but decided it wouldn’t be worth getting home if you lose yourself along the way. (even though sometimes they definitely still did violate regulations and were morally questionable but that’s another story)
Just found your show tonight. I love star trek but I don't feel the need to ever actually argue anything. I like that you respect the show without treating it as a holy Devine creation. Some trek-centric things make me feel like I've joined a cult. This doesn't, I've subbed
You guys are being pushed to me hard in YT Shorts right now, so definitely keep up with making those! Really enjoying the pod so far as well, the dynamic of two casual fans and one complete noob to the franchise is great.
So when are you guys gonna correct Ricardo on "Captain Luc Picard"? I kind of hope the answer is never. Every time it happens I'm on the edge of my seat. Thrilling content fellas.
I love how that poor guy is stabbed with the poison glove, but the crew of the enterprise just lets him die, reserving the cure for when the plot needs it.
It's interesting to note that when Picard said, "By our standards, the customs here, their code of honour, is the same kind of pompous, strutting charades that endangered our own species a few centuries ago. We evolved out of it because no one else imposed their own." He's completely wrong. Because throughout Star Trek, it's revealed that a lot of different alien species interfered with the development of humans and imposed their morals onto human civilization. For example, in TOS, they meet an alien who appeared as the Greek god Apollo and he revealed that his people had traveled to earth and helped build the ancient Greek civilization, giving humans philosophy and laws. There's also another TOS episode that had an alien who was conducting clandestine missions in the 1960's in order to guide human civilization and prevent nuclear war.
Not to mention "Enterprise" shows that the Vulcans had a significant controlling effect on Human society (particularly when it comes to Humans exploring the great beyond), even well after First Contact. Hence the everpresent non-sexual tension between T'Pol and Tucker and Archer (in addition to the very sexual tension between T'Pol and Tucker, and a little bit Archer too. As if we needed scenes with them rubbing each other down with de-viral gel or whatever).
Even though I'm an ST nerd and theres some detail missing from your chat this is a good relaxed forum about ST episodes and I'm really enjoying them. Nice to see opinions and views from those that are not hardcore fans, great stuff. Certainly be interesting once you chat about some of the upcoming episodes in later series. A+ for the visuals, not necessary BUT interesting enough that if its on in the background no worries or if you're actively watching it it keeps your attention. Can't wait for more!
@@NewbieStarTrek Exactly, I think its more probable nowadays somethings not discussed unless you have a phD on the matter. I'm finding it refreshing you're new to Star Trek AND talking about it 👍
I always figured he was chill with Westly because of the guilt of his dad's death, and it was a way to kind of honor westly's dad. But that may just be in my head.
I agree he was Wesley's dad's commanding officer when he died, and so was responsible for his death, in that military hierarchy way, and so feels guilty/responsible for Wesley. But maybe I am also making this up I cannot think if it was clearly spelled out in the show.
The *woman* who wrote this episode was ALSO hired years later to write the worst episode of Stargate SG-1 and the worst part is... it's the same damn episode! Point for fucking point, it's the same plot with different characters! Sexist primitives kidnap Samantha Carter and we have to rescue her and explain to them how women are people too. We did get one of the best scenes in the worst episode though, where she shows the primitives how a P90 works.
Was unaware that she co-wrote this screenplay with Michael Baron. Powers also solo wrote the screenplay for DS9's Past Prologue, which leaves me with a bit of whiplash comparing the two episodes. Totally unfamiliar with Stargate, sadly.
Discovered your channel recently through Shorts, and checked out the first couple episodes last night. Now with this one today, I'm hooked. I grew up on this series (my Dad became a Trekkie in the 70s watching TOS on syndication), watching TNG, DS9, and Voyager as a family from the time TNG debuted before my 5th birthday until Voyager concluded in 2001, as I was graduating high school. I'm currently (slowly) making my way through the entire franchise, having started with TOS, going through TNG, and now a couple seasons into DS9. So, this is all now fresh in my mind, as well as being childhood memories. Anyway, regarding this episode, it often feels like the only time the Prime Directive gets brought up (here and in other series), it's because they're making an exception or outright violating it flagrantly. So, for all this episodes many, many flaws, at least it stands as an example of a time when the crew of the Enterprise actually do follow the Prime Directive. This early in the show's run, that's a good thing to establish, so that there's a bit of weight to future Directive considerations. The flip side of that coin, of course, is that any time after this that they DO bend or break the Prime Directive, it carries with it the implication that "this is more important than not having Tasha Yar fight some woman to the death". Cheers!
I can't remember any extant/historical human culture like they described around 26 min in. But that's definitely the neanderthal culture in Cland of the Cave Bear.
i know i'm 6 months late watching this but the prime directive is a little vague . there's kind of two versions and it's not clear if they are the same or different rule. one is that societies without warp are effectively cut off from other planets so they are literally outside of galactic history so the prime directive is noninterference on that scale. the other part which is usually just messy is more about respecting the local laws of a nonmember society. that comes up a lot when some local society has a way of doing things that interfere and it's a plot point. it's very very vague,
The whole women own the land thing was inspired by ancient Sparta. They couldn't reference it fully in this episode as... well, in Sparta, men trained and fought, women ran and owned everything and all the labour subsisted on slavery - in fact, there were seven times more slaves than citizens in Sparta.
the prime directive feels a lot like a "move the plot forward" rule. it means what it needs to mean in order for the plot to move forward properly. Sex planet beverly: can't we just take wesley and leave? Picard: no, the prime directive says we need to let the episode play out. Black planet Some crew member: can't we just port tasha back here and leave? Picard: no, the prime directive says we need to let the episode play out it feels like a "without this we wouldn't have an episode" rule. They could have said "we need to play along with them if we want to maintain diplomatic relations. we have to try." but shouting "prime directive" is just easier writing.
The Prime Directive points that have all been said in a show (and not extended material such as books/comics/etc) Prohibited "interference" covering: > Providing knowledge of other inhabited worlds (even if individuals or governments in the society were already aware of such) to peoples who had not started using warp technology > Providing knowledge of technologies or science > Taking actions to generally affect a society's overall development > Taking actions which supported one faction within a society over another > Helping a society escape the negative consequences of its own actions > Helping a society escape a natural disaster known to the society, even if inaction would result in a society's extinction, unless the society had warp technology and had formally requested aid > Subverting or avoiding the application of a society's laws > Interfering in the internal affairs of a society
This episode dude. Even as kid back in the 90s, I was like. "Oh boy. Imma pass on this one." So many people had to sign off on this and be like, '"Yeah, this is a great idea. Let's film this and let other people see it."
I have never seen gum or peanut butter in an arcade coin slot, but immediately on hearing that this was something the crew here encountered regularly I knew they must be from California
16:20 that’s why in karate movies they always take their shirts off before fighting- it’s not to show off muscles it’s so they can’t grab onto the clothes… the real question is what if you have a hairy chest and your opponent grabs onto that like what Bruce Lee did to Chuck Norris in Way of the Dragon 😂
To my knowledge, yes, there were patriarchal societies that inherited matrilineally, but in general property was inherited from mothers, not wives. However the land might be an example of a dowry.
Funny that upon hearing that a defining characteristic of a race in fantasy universe is greedy the first thought is that it's a racist caricature for Jews. Considering there is absolutely no other similar characteristic between Jewish and Ferengi Cultures, I think that speaks more about how the crew here envisions Jews than the show.
Its also funny how just because the aliens are black and more "primitive" that makes them a stand in for africans 🤣 despite them clearly influenced by a hodgepodge of cultures. Unfortunately it seems that dark skin = African
This episode is only racist if you personally hold the belief that black humans behave this way in real life. I have never heard of such a stereotype. Normal people just look at this episode and see a weird alien culture like any other planet-of-the-week Star Trek plot. Since I don't have a problem with black actors getting work on science fiction television shows, I don't see why this is offensive. What would be racist is if they only ever cast white actors to play aliens.
Yeah i never understoond why it was racist to cast blacks here specifically when every other race has played aliens in star trek with unflattering traits.
To believe this episode is racist requires you to think poorly of black people in real life. If you're not a racist, you just see another weird alien culture on another planet-of-the-week episode like Star Trek has done consistently for its entire run.
25:42 There are several definitely not obscure cultures that have/had matrilineal inheritance and asymetric economic/political power between men and women and calling them obscure is a hell of an eurocentric take but in tone with how racist the episode is. Lenape, Iraquois, Mapuches, Pehuenches, Spartans, Serer, Tuareg and Akan are a few of the so many examples of such socio-economic setup.
Ironically, that idea you had for Wesley was pretty much used for the character of Tom Paris in the pilot episode of Star Trek: Voyager, when Janeway goes to see Paris at a labor camp and offers him a mission in exchange for his freedom.
Denna Troi, it seems to me and my Aspie friends, is there to serve the role of teaching Apsie audience members theory of mind. This is why she both states the obvious, and sometimes seems to be making stuff up to us, as a neurotypical would do. Mostly, she's right and obvious. And then often, she's jumping to conclusions. Again, as neurotypicals tend to do. Her counterpart in Galaxy Quest (Gwen DeMarco played by Sigourney Weaver) is hilariously parodying this, but with a tech twist: instead of being about reading the obvious in people, she's about reading the obvious on a computer screen which is Aspie a.f.
I am so happy someone is talking about this episode!! I watched all of TNG for the first time during lockdown, and when I saw this episode I was like, “😬😬😬😬😬😳😳😳…..do….do they know it’s like extremely racist?” I still put TNG on in the background as a comfort show, and when this episode comes on, I’m like SKIP!! Also, I did not at all pick up on the Ferengi being like coded at Jewish; literally didn’t pick it up. I thought of them as like lonely incels 😂😂😂, but maybe that’s because I was watching this series in 2020, during when all those alpha male podcasts popped up
I love the Wesley smack talk. I think I have, for decades, been unwittingly carrying around tension from having to watch his crap, and this is very cathartic.
Just discovered this podcast and really enjoying it as I'm rewatching the entire series with my daughter. From my memories of watching this as a 13 year old, it did seem a little racist even at the time because of stereotypes but mostly I just remember it as being painfully boring. Your podcast episode is far better than this episode deserves, you had me laughing out loud. Keep it up.
This doesn't make any sense to me. Why is this episode racist? The episode has all black gas stars. But it is racist. Are you saying it's because of the way the culture is represented? There are cultures like this. I think the left just want to find racism everywhere
@@NewbieStarTrekor maybe you should check yalls biases first just because theres a race of beings that are greedy by nature doesn't auto mean theyre jew stand ins
the prime directive, like everything in trek is fluid. canon is whatever the writers at the time need it to be. relax and try not to think about it too much. its just a silly space ship show after all.
Trek has always had an issue with... making a multifaceted species. Klingons are a violent deceitful race which is almost entirely POC (or people in problematic makeup). The Ferengi are practically every horrible stereotype of Jews (while, interestingly, Bajorans are all the GOOD stereotypes of Jews). Romulans have made lying into a racial trait while also being horrible slavers. The Cardassians are literally nazis. The list goes on and on, pretty much the only species that aren't one-dimensional are the humans and Vulcans, which just so happen to be the only two species present on the Enterprise in TOS. Edit: and, from what I can draw, Wutang men have the political power while females have the wealth. It's an interesting system since it requires political leaders to be charismatic leaders instead of being able to just buy power.
I remember reading some where that originally the Ligonians were meant to be a reptilian species, along with having a samurai inspired culture. Unfortunately the show runners didn't go down this route and we got this problematic version and all probably so they wouldn't have to spend more money on make up and costumes.
so interesting fact about this episode. The writer wrote "planet of lizard people" in the script. Somewhere between first draft and filming copy, it got changed in the worst way possible. The head writer (more on him later) was one of the main reasons it got changed from "lizard people" to "colored people." Would it have been better with a planet of lizard people?
Oh my I remember this episode, it was overall really bad and didn't age well for sure. Overall, Season 1 was bad and I am surprised the show wasn't cancelled. (Luckily, it wasn't).
No one was bothered by this episode before the last 10 years or so. I was a kid when it aired, it was never considered to be “problematic.” This planet is basically Space Wakanda.
@@NewbieStarTrek yes in 2007 when all the fake wokeness started but where was the outrage years earlier for the episode and how else where they supposed to betrayal a African planet I'm sure research was done before the writers did the episode where do you think our knowledge of African culture came from we didn't just make it up it was from national geographic and stuff and also Johnathan Frakes had to say that I mean what did you expect him to say infront of the press on the spot like that oh this episode was fine he was probably presured by woke Hollywood
@@NewbieStarTrek ok brother you don't have to yell at me I'm just saying this episode isn't as racist as people say it is that's it sexist Maybe but not racist just because they're all tribal people doesn't really matter anyway because they're an alien race not humans well I guess they're humans but they're not from Earth so they're still alien
I disagree with the idea of this episode being racist. Certainly I think they could have done a better job with the makeup, but this would work just as well if the alien race were a bunch of white guys, or a bunch of asians, or a multi-ethnic cast. It's about culture clash, and though the Enterprise has power, they have to bridle it.
@@NewbieStarTrek I think you're reading into it too much. You're not exactly getting a cross section of the planet, you only see a handful of the people. Call it tone deaf, call it clumsy, but racist implies intent that I seriously doubt was there.
@@AlanGresov Racism is not always about intent. Racism is about culturally and socially ingrained lattices of biases, prejudices, and discriminations, consciously and unconsciously building and buttressing systems that not only bring down but keep down groups of people. When D.W. Griffith made Birth of a Nation, he thought he was legitimately making a fair portrayal of black people. When he made Broken Blossoms, he thought he was legitimately making a sentimental portrayal of Chinese people. And I'm sure that when the writers of Star Trek TNG were writing Code of Honor, they though they were making some sort of clever social commentary on African nations. But they weren't, and we know better now. To try to ignore that and claim everything's fine is being willfully ignorant of the issues right in front of you and does nothing for social progress.
Fun fact, the same guy who wrote this episode also wrote Stargate SG1 S01E03 "Emancipation", another super early, super racist and misogynistic episode about a "tribal" person of color kidnapping a blonde, tough, plucky woman to marry, which concludes with a fight to the death.
This episode was criticised for its racism and misogyny when it came out. saying it has "not aged well" as your title does is very misleading, as it implies the episode wasn't just as hated when it came out.
also let's talk Racism and star trek. it's something that trek fans are not particular willing to get into but it's super weird. a couple things. even though the crew of TOS was sort of a unified culture based on the UN, the other species are clearly stand ins for gene roddenberries ideas about race. The Vulcans are weirdly modeled on Japanese society at first they are presented as subdued by earth before the federation is fleshed out. they are like the "good" asian society while the romulans are continually modeled after Chinese stereotypes. It's super weird. Klingons sort of started as blackface russians, and eventually in TNG just a weird black stereotype but then as writers tried to steer away from that they sort of merged them with Samorai. Ferenghi were jewish stereotypes which were kind of reclaimed by largely jewish actors who built up the lore in DS9 The last weirdly racist thing is the insane ubiquity of references to Indian culture- both in the OG series often connected with brutal warlords based on someone rodenbery knew, but then there are constant clothing and name references to India even naming one of the villain species in DS9 after the warrior caste in India. It's super weird
I'm tired of these sjw crybabies complaining about code of honor it's a great episode probably one of the best for season 1 the only people that get upset is usually cry baby white people that have been brainwashed by some University well a brainwashing Factory pretending to be a university
In ancient times an alien race took humans from Earth and put them on different earth-like planets they did it with Native Americans that Captain Kirk discovered and these are black people probably for my Africa in ancient times and they developed this culture all on their own so how's it racist to develop transporter technology on their own and developed a rich Advanced culture all on their own I mean yeah it's not wakanda it's actually more realistic than wakanda because Lisa on another planet meteorite give them magic rocks
@@thehillbillygamer2183an alien race didn’t do that, a fake alien race written by real people did that. There’s nothing wrong with pulling from real world cultures for fiction, literally every fantasy or sci-fi piece of fiction with “races” does it, but there’s a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it
@@thehillbillygamer2183sir dont you know that if a fantasy race of people have any negative traits then they are always clear stand ins for real races thus ferangi = Jews Klingon= blacks Vulcans= asian Romulans= asian
Definitely misogynistic elements to this episode. I think to purposefully so to shine a light on the subject, but seeing it as racisist is close minded and racist in itself. What specifically was racist?
If you think this episode is racist, it's because you hold personal beliefs that are racist. It's just another wacky alien culture, Star Trek does this constantly. Suddenly it's a problem if there's some black actors getting a paycheck?
I can’t believe people actually defend this episode. Even if it somehow isn’t racist, it’s just fucking terrible in its own right. Most of season one is, actually.
If you see racism in this episode, it's because you think black people in real life are like this. To a normal person, they only see some wacky aliens on a typical planet-of-the-week episode where the Federation gets to look smug and superior as always to teach humans in real life that we can be better than these stupid aliens. Now if you want to say it's a bad episode for other reasons, feel free. Most of seasons 1 and 2 aren't particularly good. This one at least had some good moments for Tasha Yar, which sadly we didn't get too many of in the course of the series. For that alone this episode is worth watching.
![[#2024MAMA] BIGBANG (빅뱅) - 뱅뱅뱅 (BANG BANG BANG) + FANTASTIC BABY | Mnet 241123 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EQsYfiPR9uM/mqdefault.jpg)
So in *absolute* fairness to Code of Honor, what I believe it was *trying* to do (though I would agree missing the mark completely) was a "just because people *seem* more primitive doesn't make them less intelligent or complex and you should respect their customs" sort of a lesson. That's what those seeming contradictions with them having the super advanced medicine was about.
But yeah, it was pretty bad.
Would it of been less bad if everybody was white?
There was a Star Trek/X-Men crossover novel where the characters commented on how similar Picard and Xavier look, well before Stewart was cast!
the prime directive isnt just invoked for developing cultures, its also a non interference policy for non federation worlds that they are not at war with or non allied to, so even to warp species, they cannot just grant them much technology, in voyager this happens a lot with janeway refusing to give multiple hostile species federation technology and i think she invokes the prime directive with that
i think its abiut not f**ding with other civilizations. if they dont have warptech you are not allowed to evrn establish contact. if they do, you can have contact, but you arent allowed to just do whatever
Yeah a major part of voyager is Janeway could’ve foregone Starfleet regulations and morals to avoid so much trouble on their way home but decided it wouldn’t be worth getting home if you lose yourself along the way. (even though sometimes they definitely still did violate regulations and were morally questionable but that’s another story)
Though I'm pretty sure it was still invoked incorrectly here.
@@Sintar07 true I agree but it helps to know how it is being used incorrectly I believe
Just found your show tonight. I love star trek but I don't feel the need to ever actually argue anything. I like that you respect the show without treating it as a holy Devine creation. Some trek-centric things make me feel like I've joined a cult. This doesn't, I've subbed
You guys are being pushed to me hard in YT Shorts right now, so definitely keep up with making those! Really enjoying the pod so far as well, the dynamic of two casual fans and one complete noob to the franchise is great.
The reason I'm here right now and it works for me
So when are you guys gonna correct Ricardo on "Captain Luc Picard"? I kind of hope the answer is never. Every time it happens I'm on the edge of my seat. Thrilling content fellas.
Boy I sure hope someone got fired for that blunder!
Your intro music… takes me right back to the DOS era of sound blaster midi video game soundtracks… I love this channel so much
As a diehard fan, I cringe when they call Picard "Luc" and not "Jean-Luc" lol
Jeannie
Who doesn't like Jon Luck Picurd?
I love how that poor guy is stabbed with the poison glove, but the crew of the enterprise just lets him die, reserving the cure for when the plot needs it.
It's interesting to note that when Picard said, "By our standards, the customs here, their code of honour, is the same kind of pompous, strutting charades that endangered our own species a few centuries ago. We evolved out of it because no one else imposed their own." He's completely wrong. Because throughout Star Trek, it's revealed that a lot of different alien species interfered with the development of humans and imposed their morals onto human civilization.
For example, in TOS, they meet an alien who appeared as the Greek god Apollo and he revealed that his people had traveled to earth and helped build the ancient Greek civilization, giving humans philosophy and laws. There's also another TOS episode that had an alien who was conducting clandestine missions in the 1960's in order to guide human civilization and prevent nuclear war.
Yeah, he's being an ignorant idealist in that scene. It's already been demonstrated that it's not a well-written episode.
Not to mention "Enterprise" shows that the Vulcans had a significant controlling effect on Human society (particularly when it comes to Humans exploring the great beyond), even well after First Contact. Hence the everpresent non-sexual tension between T'Pol and Tucker and Archer (in addition to the very sexual tension between T'Pol and Tucker, and a little bit Archer too. As if we needed scenes with them rubbing each other down with de-viral gel or whatever).
Even though I'm an ST nerd and theres some detail missing from your chat this is a good relaxed forum about ST episodes and I'm really enjoying them. Nice to see opinions and views from those that are not hardcore fans, great stuff. Certainly be interesting once you chat about some of the upcoming episodes in later series. A+ for the visuals, not necessary BUT interesting enough that if its on in the background no worries or if you're actively watching it it keeps your attention. Can't wait for more!
There's going to be a lot of details missing, most of us never watched star trek before lol
@@NewbieStarTrek
Exactly, I think its more probable nowadays somethings not discussed unless you have a phD on the matter. I'm finding it refreshing you're new to Star Trek AND talking about it 👍
I always figured he was chill with Westly because of the guilt of his dad's death, and it was a way to kind of honor westly's dad. But that may just be in my head.
I agree he was Wesley's dad's commanding officer when he died, and so was responsible for his death, in that military hierarchy way, and so feels guilty/responsible for Wesley.
But maybe I am also making this up I cannot think if it was clearly spelled out in the show.
Picard was his dad's best friend, not just his CO.
The *woman* who wrote this episode was ALSO hired years later to write the worst episode of Stargate SG-1 and the worst part is... it's the same damn episode! Point for fucking point, it's the same plot with different characters!
Sexist primitives kidnap Samantha Carter and we have to rescue her and explain to them how women are people too.
We did get one of the best scenes in the worst episode though, where she shows the primitives how a P90 works.
Was unaware that she co-wrote this screenplay with Michael Baron. Powers also solo wrote the screenplay for DS9's Past Prologue, which leaves me with a bit of whiplash comparing the two episodes. Totally unfamiliar with Stargate, sadly.
Discovered your channel recently through Shorts, and checked out the first couple episodes last night. Now with this one today, I'm hooked. I grew up on this series (my Dad became a Trekkie in the 70s watching TOS on syndication), watching TNG, DS9, and Voyager as a family from the time TNG debuted before my 5th birthday until Voyager concluded in 2001, as I was graduating high school. I'm currently (slowly) making my way through the entire franchise, having started with TOS, going through TNG, and now a couple seasons into DS9. So, this is all now fresh in my mind, as well as being childhood memories.
Anyway, regarding this episode, it often feels like the only time the Prime Directive gets brought up (here and in other series), it's because they're making an exception or outright violating it flagrantly. So, for all this episodes many, many flaws, at least it stands as an example of a time when the crew of the Enterprise actually do follow the Prime Directive. This early in the show's run, that's a good thing to establish, so that there's a bit of weight to future Directive considerations. The flip side of that coin, of course, is that any time after this that they DO bend or break the Prime Directive, it carries with it the implication that "this is more important than not having Tasha Yar fight some woman to the death".
Cheers!
I can't remember any extant/historical human culture like they described around 26 min in. But that's definitely the neanderthal culture in Cland of the Cave Bear.
i know i'm 6 months late watching this but the prime directive is a little vague . there's kind of two versions and it's not clear if they are the same or different rule. one is that societies without warp are effectively cut off from other planets so they are literally outside of galactic history so the prime directive is noninterference on that scale.
the other part which is usually just messy is more about respecting the local laws of a nonmember society. that comes up a lot when some local society has a way of doing things that interfere and it's a plot point. it's very very vague,
The whole women own the land thing was inspired by ancient Sparta. They couldn't reference it fully in this episode as... well, in Sparta, men trained and fought, women ran and owned everything and all the labour subsisted on slavery - in fact, there were seven times more slaves than citizens in Sparta.
It's true!
I thought the only influence was african culture though
the prime directive feels a lot like a "move the plot forward" rule.
it means what it needs to mean in order for the plot to move forward properly.
Sex planet
beverly: can't we just take wesley and leave?
Picard: no, the prime directive says we need to let the episode play out.
Black planet
Some crew member: can't we just port tasha back here and leave?
Picard: no, the prime directive says we need to let the episode play out
it feels like a "without this we wouldn't have an episode" rule.
They could have said "we need to play along with them if we want to maintain diplomatic relations. we have to try." but shouting "prime directive" is just easier writing.
Picard: We shall show you all the respect.
Also Picard: detonate a barrage of explosives above their planet lolz
The civilization you’re looking for is the Spartans
The Prime Directive points that have all been said in a show (and not extended material such as books/comics/etc)
Prohibited "interference" covering:
> Providing knowledge of other inhabited worlds (even if individuals or governments in the society were already aware of such) to peoples who had not started using warp technology
> Providing knowledge of technologies or science
> Taking actions to generally affect a society's overall development
> Taking actions which supported one faction within a society over another
> Helping a society escape the negative consequences of its own actions
> Helping a society escape a natural disaster known to the society, even if inaction would result in a society's extinction, unless the society had warp technology and had formally requested aid
> Subverting or avoiding the application of a society's laws
> Interfering in the internal affairs of a society
This episode dude. Even as kid back in the 90s, I was like. "Oh boy. Imma pass on this one."
So many people had to sign off on this and be like, '"Yeah, this is a great idea. Let's film this and let other people see it."
I have never seen gum or peanut butter in an arcade coin slot, but immediately on hearing that this was something the crew here encountered regularly I knew they must be from California
Holy shit, these videos get better and better.
The Jean luc/Johnny Cash comparison might be the best thing I've ever heard just cause its so random. 👌
16:20 that’s why in karate movies they always take their shirts off before fighting- it’s not to show off muscles it’s so they can’t grab onto the clothes… the real question is what if you have a hairy chest and your opponent grabs onto that like what Bruce Lee did to Chuck Norris in Way of the Dragon 😂
It's to show off their muscles
Don’t forget that Picard is disturbingly obsessed with Dickensian christmas celebrations as we saw in Generations
Wesley hasn't learned at the academy so its a bad idea but if there's nothing to press on the console
Rumor has it that this episode used all of the gold-tone plastic available in the US.
To my knowledge, yes, there were patriarchal societies that inherited matrilineally, but in general property was inherited from mothers, not wives. However the land might be an example of a dowry.
So I was 10 when TNG started. Wesley was my hero. I thought it was so cool they let a kid pilot the ship. I couldn't wait to go to space.
Did you go to space?
There's always Sub Rosa to look forward to
Blazin' Bev.
FYI, Gene was so pissed about this episode he fired the director and forbid him to do Trek again.
Funny that upon hearing that a defining characteristic of a race in fantasy universe is greedy the first thought is that it's a racist caricature for Jews. Considering there is absolutely no other similar characteristic between Jewish and Ferengi Cultures, I think that speaks more about how the crew here envisions Jews than the show.
Its also funny how just because the aliens are black and more "primitive" that makes them a stand in for africans 🤣 despite them clearly influenced by a hodgepodge of cultures. Unfortunately it seems that dark skin = African
Yeah, lots of people telling on themselves when they call depictions of aliens on Star Trek racist.
I thought that the yankee trader comparrison was very apt, as even with later depictions they seem much more like that then like a jewish stereotype.
That's vorik at first then tuvok in body and soul
This episode is only racist if you personally hold the belief that black humans behave this way in real life. I have never heard of such a stereotype. Normal people just look at this episode and see a weird alien culture like any other planet-of-the-week Star Trek plot. Since I don't have a problem with black actors getting work on science fiction television shows, I don't see why this is offensive. What would be racist is if they only ever cast white actors to play aliens.
Yeah i never understoond why it was racist to cast blacks here specifically when every other race has played aliens in star trek with unflattering traits.
It has been said in some show at sometime (there is alot if Trek to keep straight) that the prime directive applies to a pre-warp society
"This is Planters turf" lol lol omg you guys are friggin awesome
Essentially the prime directive is just "don't screw with underdeveloped lifeforms"
And the song you're talking abt is "the long black veil"
All the "Picard is the father" stuff is so funny in the context of the newest season of Picard.
I love this show, but I gotta say it could have been a lot more interesting if Picard had been Wesley's real father.
I don't remember this episode being that racist.
There was dark skinned people being shown to have flaws of course thats racist
To believe this episode is racist requires you to think poorly of black people in real life. If you're not a racist, you just see another weird alien culture on another planet-of-the-week episode like Star Trek has done consistently for its entire run.
That was Vorik not Tuvok
25:42 There are several definitely not obscure cultures that have/had matrilineal inheritance and asymetric economic/political power between men and women and calling them obscure is a hell of an eurocentric take but in tone with how racist the episode is. Lenape, Iraquois, Mapuches, Pehuenches, Spartans, Serer, Tuareg and Akan are a few of the so many examples of such socio-economic setup.
I have truly never in my life seen an arcade cabinet with gum or peanut butter in the coin slot, sorry y'all are in one of the sucky parts of America.
The Ponn Farr discussion had me rolling! So glad I discovered you guys.
Ironically, that idea you had for Wesley was pretty much used for the character of Tom Paris in the pilot episode of Star Trek: Voyager, when Janeway goes to see Paris at a labor camp and offers him a mission in exchange for his freedom.
Denna Troi, it seems to me and my Aspie friends, is there to serve the role of teaching Apsie audience members theory of mind. This is why she both states the obvious, and sometimes seems to be making stuff up to us, as a neurotypical would do. Mostly, she's right and obvious. And then often, she's jumping to conclusions. Again, as neurotypicals tend to do. Her counterpart in Galaxy Quest (Gwen DeMarco played by Sigourney Weaver) is hilariously parodying this, but with a tech twist: instead of being about reading the obvious in people, she's about reading the obvious on a computer screen which is Aspie a.f.
both data and odo are incredibly aspie coded
Love your content guys!
I love the monetized asteroids, but having Picard there made me worried he'd break into another racist Royal Navy sea shanty.
And Gagh with tajin! These details are awesome
Haha thank you, @John Velez worked very hard on those
I'm not ever going to correct u I love how crazy and fun are ur ideas
I am so happy someone is talking about this episode!! I watched all of TNG for the first time during lockdown, and when I saw this episode I was like, “😬😬😬😬😬😳😳😳…..do….do they know it’s like extremely racist?” I still put TNG on in the background as a comfort show, and when this episode comes on, I’m like SKIP!!
Also, I did not at all pick up on the Ferengi being like coded at Jewish; literally didn’t pick it up. I thought of them as like lonely incels 😂😂😂, but maybe that’s because I was watching this series in 2020, during when all those alpha male podcasts popped up
What's racist about it?
I love the Wesley smack talk. I think I have, for decades, been unwittingly carrying around tension from having to watch his crap, and this is very cathartic.
I was a 8 or 9 Year old german boy at the time this came out. I can tell you it didn´t age well when it came out.
This episode is the worst.
Just discovered this podcast and really enjoying it as I'm rewatching the entire series with my daughter. From my memories of watching this as a 13 year old, it did seem a little racist even at the time because of stereotypes but mostly I just remember it as being painfully boring. Your podcast episode is far better than this episode deserves, you had me laughing out loud. Keep it up.
FYI Sisko and his dad are Creole :) Louisiana Creoles and Cajuns are two different cultures!
Yes! I had misremembered
@@NewbieStarTrek No worries! Enjoying these immensely xD
This doesn't make any sense to me. Why is this episode racist? The episode has all black gas stars. But it is racist. Are you saying it's because of the way the culture is represented? There are cultures like this. I think the left just want to find racism everywhere
Approach that question in good faith and I think you'll logically arrive to the conclusion.
@@NewbieStarTrekor maybe you should check yalls biases first just because theres a race of beings that are greedy by nature doesn't auto mean theyre jew stand ins
the prime directive, like everything in trek is fluid. canon is whatever the writers at the time need it to be. relax and try not to think about it too much. its just a silly space ship show after all.
Code of honor didn't age well?
*Shocked pikachu face*
W... was it cus of the fighting?
This episode aged poorly off the production line
Yall really hate Wesley damn.
Trek has always had an issue with... making a multifaceted species. Klingons are a violent deceitful race which is almost entirely POC (or people in problematic makeup). The Ferengi are practically every horrible stereotype of Jews (while, interestingly, Bajorans are all the GOOD stereotypes of Jews). Romulans have made lying into a racial trait while also being horrible slavers. The Cardassians are literally nazis. The list goes on and on, pretty much the only species that aren't one-dimensional are the humans and Vulcans, which just so happen to be the only two species present on the Enterprise in TOS.
Edit: and, from what I can draw, Wutang men have the political power while females have the wealth. It's an interesting system since it requires political leaders to be charismatic leaders instead of being able to just buy power.
You're telling on yourself, here.
@@fakecubedShh don't tell them the self-reporting is the best part!
I feel this episode was done better in the Orville
Which isn't that hard
I remember reading some where that originally the Ligonians were meant to be a reptilian species, along with having a samurai inspired culture. Unfortunately the show runners didn't go down this route and we got this problematic version and all probably so they wouldn't have to spend more money on make up and costumes.
🎉
Love the Long Black Veil reference.
so interesting fact about this episode. The writer wrote "planet of lizard people" in the script. Somewhere between first draft and filming copy, it got changed in the worst way possible. The head writer (more on him later) was one of the main reasons it got changed from "lizard people" to "colored people." Would it have been better with a planet of lizard people?
Oh my I remember this episode, it was overall really bad and didn't age well for sure. Overall, Season 1 was bad and I am surprised the show wasn't cancelled. (Luckily, it wasn't).
Cool beans nerdies
No one was bothered by this episode before the last 10 years or so. I was a kid when it aired, it was never considered to be “problematic.” This planet is basically Space Wakanda.
Johnathan Frakes literally called it a racist piece of shit in 2007
@@NewbieStarTrek Is Wakanda racist?
@@NewbieStarTrek yes in 2007 when all the fake wokeness started but where was the outrage years earlier for the episode and how else where they supposed to betrayal a African planet I'm sure research was done before the writers did the episode where do you think our knowledge of African culture came from we didn't just make it up it was from national geographic and stuff and also Johnathan Frakes had to say that I mean what did you expect him to say infront of the press on the spot like that oh this episode was fine he was probably presured by woke Hollywood
They didn't jack shit for research.
@@NewbieStarTrek ok brother you don't have to yell at me I'm just saying this episode isn't as racist as people say it is that's it sexist Maybe but not racist just because they're all tribal people doesn't really matter anyway because they're an alien race not humans well I guess they're humans but they're not from Earth so they're still alien
They can only get so woke🎉
I disagree with the idea of this episode being racist. Certainly I think they could have done a better job with the makeup, but this would work just as well if the alien race were a bunch of white guys, or a bunch of asians, or a multi-ethnic cast. It's about culture clash, and though the Enterprise has power, they have to bridle it.
But the fact is that they made it all black people.
@@NewbieStarTrek I think you're reading into it too much. You're not exactly getting a cross section of the planet, you only see a handful of the people. Call it tone deaf, call it clumsy, but racist implies intent that I seriously doubt was there.
@@AlanGresov Racism is not always about intent. Racism is about culturally and socially ingrained lattices of biases, prejudices, and discriminations, consciously and unconsciously building and buttressing systems that not only bring down but keep down groups of people. When D.W. Griffith made Birth of a Nation, he thought he was legitimately making a fair portrayal of black people. When he made Broken Blossoms, he thought he was legitimately making a sentimental portrayal of Chinese people. And I'm sure that when the writers of Star Trek TNG were writing Code of Honor, they though they were making some sort of clever social commentary on African nations. But they weren't, and we know better now. To try to ignore that and claim everything's fine is being willfully ignorant of the issues right in front of you and does nothing for social progress.
It is racist and sexist. It oozes stereotypes.
@@NewbieStarTrek You're against black people getting jobs in Hollywood?
Who cares about ism's
This is probably the only episode worse than the final episode of enterprise!
Fun fact, the same guy who wrote this episode also wrote Stargate SG1 S01E03 "Emancipation", another super early, super racist and misogynistic episode about a "tribal" person of color kidnapping a blonde, tough, plucky woman to marry, which concludes with a fight to the death.
Wow he really likes stories about white women getting kidnapped
Somehow even weirder it was a woman! Who wrote two of the most sexist episodes of television ever!
I love scrappy doo
Age well? This shit was.problematic and bonkers at the time.
This episode was criticised for its racism and misogyny when it came out. saying it has "not aged well" as your title does is very misleading, as it implies the episode wasn't just as hated when it came out.
also let's talk Racism and star trek. it's something that trek fans are not particular willing to get into but it's super weird.
a couple things. even though the crew of TOS was sort of a unified culture based on the UN, the other species are clearly stand ins for gene roddenberries ideas about race.
The Vulcans are weirdly modeled on Japanese society at first they are presented as subdued by earth before the federation is fleshed out. they are like the "good" asian society while the romulans are continually modeled after Chinese stereotypes. It's super weird.
Klingons sort of started as blackface russians, and eventually in TNG just a weird black stereotype but then as writers tried to steer away from that they sort of merged them with Samorai.
Ferenghi were jewish stereotypes which were kind of reclaimed by largely jewish actors who built up the lore in DS9
The last weirdly racist thing is the insane ubiquity of references to Indian culture- both in the OG series often connected with brutal warlords based on someone rodenbery knew, but then there are constant clothing and name references to India even naming one of the villain species in DS9 after the warrior caste in India. It's super weird
I'm tired of these sjw crybabies complaining about code of honor it's a great episode probably one of the best for season 1 the only people that get upset is usually cry baby white people that have been brainwashed by some University well a brainwashing Factory pretending to be a university
In ancient times an alien race took humans from Earth and put them on different earth-like planets they did it with Native Americans that Captain Kirk discovered and these are black people probably for my Africa in ancient times and they developed this culture all on their own so how's it racist to develop transporter technology on their own and developed a rich Advanced culture all on their own I mean yeah it's not wakanda it's actually more realistic than wakanda because Lisa on another planet meteorite give them magic rocks
@@thehillbillygamer2183an alien race didn’t do that, a fake alien race written by real people did that. There’s nothing wrong with pulling from real world cultures for fiction, literally every fantasy or sci-fi piece of fiction with “races” does it, but there’s a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it
@@thehillbillygamer2183sir dont you know that if a fantasy race of people have any negative traits then they are always clear stand ins for real races thus ferangi = Jews Klingon= blacks Vulcans= asian Romulans= asian
Liberal California Zoomers, ideologically possessed, riff on a Gen-X sci-fi series.
I do not see that. It was more them going over the show.
Definitely misogynistic elements to this episode. I think to purposefully so to shine a light on the subject, but seeing it as racisist is close minded and racist in itself. What specifically was racist?
literally the people who started in it called it racist
Retarded Gen-x nerd seethes over younger people making fun of a shitty episode of 80s TV.
@@urktheturtle2988 yah or get cancelled.
Sub-humans bandwagon clickers like you are the downfall of humanity
How on gods green earth am I seeing comments asking how this episode was racist? There is no middle finger big enough!
Funny how you see a dark skinned and "primitive" society and automatically assume its africa
If you think this episode is racist, it's because you hold personal beliefs that are racist. It's just another wacky alien culture, Star Trek does this constantly. Suddenly it's a problem if there's some black actors getting a paycheck?
I can’t believe people actually defend this episode. Even if it somehow isn’t racist, it’s just fucking terrible in its own right. Most of season one is, actually.
If you see racism in this episode, it's because you think black people in real life are like this. To a normal person, they only see some wacky aliens on a typical planet-of-the-week episode where the Federation gets to look smug and superior as always to teach humans in real life that we can be better than these stupid aliens.
Now if you want to say it's a bad episode for other reasons, feel free. Most of seasons 1 and 2 aren't particularly good. This one at least had some good moments for Tasha Yar, which sadly we didn't get too many of in the course of the series. For that alone this episode is worth watching.
The worst episode racist theme
It's really bad
Im into this. You earned my sub for sure.
I actually can’t listen to you guys anymore. This is so painful to listen to