Sophie mentioning Hitman Reborn because she knows Sin did, but Sin never actually mentioning it, reminds me of that video of a horse following a human who’s holding reins that don’t exist, because that’s the only thing it knows.
What I've always liked about this channel is that you're not fanboys. You cover it like it is. The lore of DS3 is not Miyazaki doing some 4D philosophical chess. It's the story of a studio that was working overtime like crazy from 2014-2016 to fulfil a contract for two sequels they never wanted to make and squish in-between the projects that they ACTUALLY wanted to make, DLCs included. The genius of Miyazaki is having all of these balls and juggling them in a way that makes the players not notice how rough it actually has been for them. How messy the reshuffling of assets and rewriting of lore had gotten.
Ngl, I like your old videos just as much as i love the snack covenant. I totally get you not being a fan of your early content, but you've always been wonderful
The OG bastards curse is what first made me look beyond the surface level of fromsoft games, and it definitely contributed to my souls obsession. I'm really glad to come back to the topic with a new perspective. Old or new, I enjoy all of your discussions. The snack covenant is a lifetime membership!
Mega agreed. I didn't realise that the Shinto idea of stagnation causing corruption is basically everywhere in Souls games until after that video. It's in Sekiro twice!
This comment is going to be a bit lengthy, because there’s a lot I have to say on this subject that’s been on my mind for quite a while. I’d argue that 1>3>2 makes sense not just thematically, but on a literal plot-mechanics level too. The way 2 presents the “cycle” matches very closely to 3’s “End of Fire” ending - in which the Age of Dark arrives in full force and wipes away the previous Age of Fire, only for someone to eventually find the First Flame/Throne of Want and restart the Age of Fire again. This is in sharp contrast to 3’s continuously renewed First Flame that’s never allowed to fade fully, so it’d make perfect sense for 2 to follow up on 3 from that ending instead of 3 following up on 2. I think there is an area where the Abrahamic comparisons for Aldrich and the Deep are merited - the Deep being simultaneously a singular physical place kept as a shrine by the Way of White and a more abstract idea referring to this corrupted form of Dark reminds me a bit of how the names of places in the ancient Near East that feature in Jewish and Christian scriptures (such as Jerusalem and Babylon) came to serve as bywords for more abstract, metaphorical concepts (the New Jerusalem, “Babylon” as a symbol of tyranny and vice). To me it seems that Aldrich’s followers have begun using the literal, physical Deep as a byword for the metaphysical concept they worship and the age they’re trying to bring about, in the same way. The Murkmen, then, are “emerging from the Deep” in the sense of this much more abstract, metaphorical Deep, not from the literal physical Deep. The particular nature of what the Deep is, the abstract idea that Aldrich and his followers are referring to, seems to be a sort of stagnation-induced corruption of the Dark, distinct from the Abyss. Preventing the natural course of events by linking the fire repeatedly and stretching the Age of Fire on for thousands of years like Gwyndolin, the Lords of Cinder, and the kingdom of Lothric have been doing between DS1 and DS3 has caused the Dark (or at least, some of it) to rot and fester. Much like the literal Deep was like a containment zone for things associated with the Dark maintained by the Way of White, the metaphorical Deep is a spiritual rot resulting from the Dark being contained by the Fire. The flow from the Age of Fire to the Age of Dark is a river, and what Gwyndolin, Lothric, the Lords of Cinder etc. have done is dam that river to create a stagnant reservoir, the Deep. While the Abyss is like the Dark threatening to destroy the dam, the Deep is that lake festering and attracting maggots, leeches, mosquitoes, and disease. The Deep was also described as once being peaceful (remember, that’s the natural state of the Dark) and sacred to the Way of White (since it’s a byproduct of their whole scheme), and it’s stated that “neither faith nor flame” could save the Deacons of the Deep (since the Deep’s origins are inextricably linked to the Fire). Above all else, though, this explanation is important because it explains why Aldrich had to link the Fire despite his clear alignment with the Dark - Aldrich needs to keep Gwyndolin and Lothric’s “dam” in place because it’s what created his “lake” to begin with and prevents it from flowing again, if he lets the fire fade then the Deep will dissipate as the “river” of the Dark is free to flow once more. The reason Aldrich needs to eat the gods, Gwyndolin in particular, is so that the Deep can usurp the forces of Fire (in a way distinct from Londor, not opening that can of worms) while keeping the “dam” in place. Aldrich didn’t just kill Gwyndolin, he consumed him and with him his powers as a god of Anor Londo in order to continue his perverted version of the Age of Fire until the Deep totally consumes all of it. I’m not sure if Pontiff Sulyvahn “showed up to Irithyll with Aldrich” so much as Aldrich and his followers invaded Irithyll after Sulyvahn had already installed himself and locked Gwyndolin away. The Pontiff Knight weapons were “eaten away by insects” which to me implies that they were damaged by the Deep’s forces in a fight with Aldrich and company. Since Sulyvahn is an opportunist only interested in power, with no particular alignment to Fire or Dark, he would up changing plans from serving as Gwyndolin’s Fire-aligned regent to the Deep religion, and feeding Gwyndolin to Aldrich to secure that position and help Aldrich’s plans. I think one thing worth noting about Dark Anor Londo and Irithyll is that it seems to be kind of a “Fisher King” situation - the sun disappeared from Anor Londo because Gwyn and the rest of his divine royalty have departed from it, and now it’s trapped in a perpetual twilight (with the crescent moon always visible by DS3) to reflect its new master. The thing about the Nameless King and Gwynevere being archetypes masculinity and femininity while Gwyndolin is an androgynous blend of the two is a connection I hadn’t made before, great observation!
I love how this game came out 7, almost 8, years ago now and you two are STILL able to create new and meaningful content on the lore. I think that says a LOT about how great the worlds by Fromsoft are made, but it speaks VOLUMES about you two and your understanding and creativity. Thanks for another great vid Sin and Sophie!! 💜
The bastard's curse video was my absolute favorite DS3 lore vid. The bloodborne vids were so good I listened to all of them on a drive from Tampa, FL to Gatlinburg, TN. Are they hosted anywhere by chance?
I agree that the old channel was better, imo, but this style is perfectly fine. I'm a big video essay kind of person. The bastard's curse is, to this day, one of my top favorite lore dives. I still watch it from time to time
Gwyndolin is absolutely my favorite Dark Souls character. I think they’re fascinating, and I relate to the fact that they’re Gwyn’s unappreciated kid, but they’re the one who stuck around and ran everything while their siblings effed off to wherever.
Sophie's videos about Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 were fascinating and educational about the various influences from real life can be seen in those games.
This is more of a side note than anything, but there's a lone mangrub hanging out by the giant birdcage in the Lothric Grand Archives where you find the Divine Pillars of Light miracle associated with the Heavenly Daughter Gertrude. The description says she lost 'both her sight and voice'. Might be a bit of a stretch but 'losing your voice' could be seen as a way of saying her tongue was removed. Dunno how that lines up with the vague timeline going on, but it sorta bolsters the whole Izanami comparison. No idea what's going on with the 'angels' that Gertrude and the winged knights aligned with but they're probably an afterthought anyways.
That Bastard's Curse video is fantastic though, even if you look back on it not that fondly it's still one of my favourites and your current content is great
Personal theory, Aldrich was a normal super wholesome dude who linked the fire and then when he was resurrected and saw the flaw in the system, decided to be reborn (via Rosaría) into the opposite of who he was before.
Miyazaki notes!! How i missed thee! One additional thing i'd like to add with a western concept of Kegare; is like how in Islam you have to be in a state of Wudhu before praying, this is essentially washing your body
44:00 I disagree, the gods DO hollow, hollowing is clearly some sort of soul-starving affliction, considering Gwyn himself is hollowed at the end of DaS1, after burning most of his soul to keep the flame.
Wonder if (barring rewrites) Aldritch turning into sludge was similar to how things that consume humanity change. Like rats getting bigger and fuel for demon larvae. And his seeing the deep and an age of deep seas was because he was literally liquid.
Oh shit. I thought this was an old video that i missed. Then I checked the date. Oh yeah! I'm ready for this. I'mglad you decided to reinvemt TBC. Thanks Y'ALL.
This is the best channel on TH-cam. I love you guys. I love all the listeners as well. I’m not alone in the real world. I have a family and they bring me a lot of fulfillment and joy. However, I am very alone in the pursuit of my passions. This community fulfills a very important function in my life for that reason. Thanks to all of you. I hope life finds you well!
I heard here for the first time that the Nameless King is the Founder of Lothric. Can maybe someone point me to a video where they discuss this theory in more detail?
Aside from Demons' Souls which I enjoyed but didn't *really* understand at the time, Dark Souls 2 was the first Souls game I played in earnest and it almost turned me off Soulsborne games entirely. So while I agree that the story is pretty good, it's disappointing gameplay wise and without DS3 I probably don't care about any of this. Of which I do an unreasonable amount.
It made me happy when you brought up the NK being deceased and the bell resurrecting him for the fight. It's a theory I've held for some time, but I've never heard anyone else state. It does beg the questions, though. Who could have killed him? How can a corpse absorb a fallen allies' soul? Why is there a setup to resurrect and duel him at all? Ornstein, the sun and moon in the sky, the bell, the path of the dragon... it all makes my head hurt. I just want it to make sense 😂
I know this has been discussed to death already but it always annoys me when people use she/her pronouns for Gwyndolin when I feel like his whole story points to him being more akin to a trans man, regardless of sexual characteristics (it doesn't matter). I know a lot of trans women feel connected to him but being female wasn't something he chose, it was something assigned to him at birth and he essentially transitions between 1 and 3, with Yorshka, his closest family member and loved one, referring to him as brother.
It never occurred to me that Gwyndolin's non-binary nature was the perfect usher for the final ending of the Age of Fire (and disparity)... Gwyndolin DID get done dirty :( They're definitely one of the more interesting characters in the entire franchise
Holy crap!! My weeb credentials go back to the days when u had to get your anime fix on VHS tapes, so I didn’t see anything I hadn’t heard before - but this is such a great integration of things I didn’t put together. Great job!!
![Dark Souls: Fire and Binaries [Dark Souls Lore / Discussion]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pQxTgrofOeQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![Dark Souls: Fire and Binaries [Dark Souls Lore / Discussion]](/img/tr.png)
![A look back at Ashes of Ariandel and The Ringed City [Dark Souls 3 Lore]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2lpPLwdPJbo/mqdefault.jpg)
![What Where Why: Vyke [Elden Ring Lore]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U4oFoj6B9qg/mqdefault.jpg)
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Sophie mentioning Hitman Reborn because she knows Sin did, but Sin never actually mentioning it, reminds me of that video of a horse following a human who’s holding reins that don’t exist, because that’s the only thing it knows.
What I've always liked about this channel is that you're not fanboys. You cover it like it is. The lore of DS3 is not Miyazaki doing some 4D philosophical chess. It's the story of a studio that was working overtime like crazy from 2014-2016 to fulfil a contract for two sequels they never wanted to make and squish in-between the projects that they ACTUALLY wanted to make, DLCs included. The genius of Miyazaki is having all of these balls and juggling them in a way that makes the players not notice how rough it actually has been for them. How messy the reshuffling of assets and rewriting of lore had gotten.
"I created a mysterious thing known as the Bastard's Curse, let's talk about it as little as possible." Sophie's slowly turning into a Souls NPC.
Ngl, I like your old videos just as much as i love the snack covenant. I totally get you not being a fan of your early content, but you've always been wonderful
The OG bastards curse is what first made me look beyond the surface level of fromsoft games, and it definitely contributed to my souls obsession. I'm really glad to come back to the topic with a new perspective. Old or new, I enjoy all of your discussions. The snack covenant is a lifetime membership!
Mega agreed. I didn't realise that the Shinto idea of stagnation causing corruption is basically everywhere in Souls games until after that video. It's in Sekiro twice!
This comment is going to be a bit lengthy, because there’s a lot I have to say on this subject that’s been on my mind for quite a while.
I’d argue that 1>3>2 makes sense not just thematically, but on a literal plot-mechanics level too. The way 2 presents the “cycle” matches very closely to 3’s “End of Fire” ending - in which the Age of Dark arrives in full force and wipes away the previous Age of Fire, only for someone to eventually find the First Flame/Throne of Want and restart the Age of Fire again. This is in sharp contrast to 3’s continuously renewed First Flame that’s never allowed to fade fully, so it’d make perfect sense for 2 to follow up on 3 from that ending instead of 3 following up on 2.
I think there is an area where the Abrahamic comparisons for Aldrich and the Deep are merited - the Deep being simultaneously a singular physical place kept as a shrine by the Way of White and a more abstract idea referring to this corrupted form of Dark reminds me a bit of how the names of places in the ancient Near East that feature in Jewish and Christian scriptures (such as Jerusalem and Babylon) came to serve as bywords for more abstract, metaphorical concepts (the New Jerusalem, “Babylon” as a symbol of tyranny and vice). To me it seems that Aldrich’s followers have begun using the literal, physical Deep as a byword for the metaphysical concept they worship and the age they’re trying to bring about, in the same way. The Murkmen, then, are “emerging from the Deep” in the sense of this much more abstract, metaphorical Deep, not from the literal physical Deep.
The particular nature of what the Deep is, the abstract idea that Aldrich and his followers are referring to, seems to be a sort of stagnation-induced corruption of the Dark, distinct from the Abyss. Preventing the natural course of events by linking the fire repeatedly and stretching the Age of Fire on for thousands of years like Gwyndolin, the Lords of Cinder, and the kingdom of Lothric have been doing between DS1 and DS3 has caused the Dark (or at least, some of it) to rot and fester. Much like the literal Deep was like a containment zone for things associated with the Dark maintained by the Way of White, the metaphorical Deep is a spiritual rot resulting from the Dark being contained by the Fire. The flow from the Age of Fire to the Age of Dark is a river, and what Gwyndolin, Lothric, the Lords of Cinder etc. have done is dam that river to create a stagnant reservoir, the Deep. While the Abyss is like the Dark threatening to destroy the dam, the Deep is that lake festering and attracting maggots, leeches, mosquitoes, and disease. The Deep was also described as once being peaceful (remember, that’s the natural state of the Dark) and sacred to the Way of White (since it’s a byproduct of their whole scheme), and it’s stated that “neither faith nor flame” could save the Deacons of the Deep (since the Deep’s origins are inextricably linked to the Fire). Above all else, though, this explanation is important because it explains why Aldrich had to link the Fire despite his clear alignment with the Dark - Aldrich needs to keep Gwyndolin and Lothric’s “dam” in place because it’s what created his “lake” to begin with and prevents it from flowing again, if he lets the fire fade then the Deep will dissipate as the “river” of the Dark is free to flow once more. The reason Aldrich needs to eat the gods, Gwyndolin in particular, is so that the Deep can usurp the forces of Fire (in a way distinct from Londor, not opening that can of worms) while keeping the “dam” in place. Aldrich didn’t just kill Gwyndolin, he consumed him and with him his powers as a god of Anor Londo in order to continue his perverted version of the Age of Fire until the Deep totally consumes all of it.
I’m not sure if Pontiff Sulyvahn “showed up to Irithyll with Aldrich” so much as Aldrich and his followers invaded Irithyll after Sulyvahn had already installed himself and locked Gwyndolin away. The Pontiff Knight weapons were “eaten away by insects” which to me implies that they were damaged by the Deep’s forces in a fight with Aldrich and company. Since Sulyvahn is an opportunist only interested in power, with no particular alignment to Fire or Dark, he would up changing plans from serving as Gwyndolin’s Fire-aligned regent to the Deep religion, and feeding Gwyndolin to Aldrich to secure that position and help Aldrich’s plans.
I think one thing worth noting about Dark Anor Londo and Irithyll is that it seems to be kind of a “Fisher King” situation - the sun disappeared from Anor Londo because Gwyn and the rest of his divine royalty have departed from it, and now it’s trapped in a perpetual twilight (with the crescent moon always visible by DS3) to reflect its new master.
The thing about the Nameless King and Gwynevere being archetypes masculinity and femininity while Gwyndolin is an androgynous blend of the two is a connection I hadn’t made before, great observation!
Smough was just trying to incorporate bone broth to his diet.
I love how this game came out 7, almost 8, years ago now and you two are STILL able to create new and meaningful content on the lore. I think that says a LOT about how great the worlds by Fromsoft are made, but it speaks VOLUMES about you two and your understanding and creativity. Thanks for another great vid Sin and Sophie!! 💜
You two kids should absolutely do a mukbang while cosplaying Aldrich and Sulyvahn. Although I don't really know how you'd do an Aldrich costume.
Black metallic sleeping bag combined with Gwyndolin cosplay, probably would end up being being like the horse costume where it's two people
And it needs to be as gross as possible
It's just Sin drinking several Japanese slippers for the mukbang
a lot of black sheer fabric
Normally I try to forget dark souls 3 exists, but these videos are the only exception
I normally listen to these but I had to watch this one. Its so nice to see you lovely ladies!
4:48 solution number 6: add more swamps
I'm pretty sure the bastards curse was made by JFK, stealing his thunder is not a very cool move Soph
As much as I like the animated sprites, I’ve been really loving seeing you both more recently :)
The bastard's curse video was my absolute favorite DS3 lore vid. The bloodborne vids were so good I listened to all of them on a drive from Tampa, FL to Gatlinburg, TN. Are they hosted anywhere by chance?
I agree that the old channel was better, imo, but this style is perfectly fine. I'm a big video essay kind of person. The bastard's curse is, to this day, one of my top favorite lore dives. I still watch it from time to time
I would love to see you two play fear and hunger
It would last 20 minutes and ended with Sophie rage quitting and Sin just laughing hysterically
I think aldrich and his church is a reference of the scandals of modern church.
K
I'm psyched for this. Aldrich captivated me more than anything in any game lore prior. Thanks for everything you do
I just thought the sewer water was from the giants ngl
Gwyndolin is absolutely my favorite Dark Souls character. I think they’re fascinating, and I relate to the fact that they’re Gwyn’s unappreciated kid, but they’re the one who stuck around and ran everything while their siblings effed off to wherever.
More Gwyndolin discussion has me exuberant. Gleeful, even. One might say downright glad, with a generally cheerful demeanor.
Sophie's videos about Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 were fascinating and educational about the various influences from real life can be seen in those games.
This is more of a side note than anything, but there's a lone mangrub hanging out by the giant birdcage in the Lothric Grand Archives where you find the Divine Pillars of Light miracle associated with the Heavenly Daughter Gertrude. The description says she lost 'both her sight and voice'. Might be a bit of a stretch but 'losing your voice' could be seen as a way of saying her tongue was removed. Dunno how that lines up with the vague timeline going on, but it sorta bolsters the whole Izanami comparison. No idea what's going on with the 'angels' that Gertrude and the winged knights aligned with but they're probably an afterthought anyways.
So was Pontiff Sullivan a pontiff of the Cathedral of the deep? I’ve always assumed he was in charge of Cathedral during Aldrich’s absense.
He came from the Painted World at some point? But he seems more concerned with the profaned flame so IDK.
@@SinclairLore He doesn't know how to swim so got really frustrated and got that out by burning things
I thought that he was Pontiff of Irithyll- a proclaimed intermediary between Gwyndolin and the populace who ended up betraying them both, for Aldrich.
so happy, I love these long videos. I go to sleep listening to this channel almost every night :)
That Bastard's Curse video is fantastic though, even if you look back on it not that fondly it's still one of my favourites and your current content is great
Thanks again for the insightful and fun commentary!
I appreciate you both for what you do!
This episode convinced me to become a GwyndolinxMorgott shipper. Thanks.
Comments like this make it all worthwhile.
Personal theory, Aldrich was a normal super wholesome dude who linked the fire and then when he was resurrected and saw the flaw in the system, decided to be reborn (via Rosaría) into the opposite of who he was before.
Margot is Elden Ring's Gwendolyn.
no joke easily one of your best. Just nonstop lore snacks
"Bastards Curse: Kiwami DX"
I'll always love how much Sophie just abandonned and accepted that everything will be Reborn related x'D
Miyazaki notes!! How i missed thee!
One additional thing i'd like to add with a western concept of Kegare; is like how in Islam you have to be in a state of Wudhu before praying, this is essentially washing your body
Pontiff Sulyvahn: I have the power of Gwyndolin and anime on my side
Lol
Just found this channel and I am immediately in love with the deep dive insights and THIS BRAND OF HUMOR speaks to me 😊
Thank you so much!
two of my favorite creators talking abt two of my favorite characters...yup!! 😭♥
sophie your old channel was good AND THIS ONE IS EVEN BETTER 🎉😘😘😘😘🎉
44:00 I disagree, the gods DO hollow, hollowing is clearly some sort of soul-starving affliction, considering Gwyn himself is hollowed at the end of DaS1, after burning most of his soul to keep the flame.
I got an ad for a Spanish movie and was mega confused for a moment
Wonder if (barring rewrites) Aldritch turning into sludge was similar to how things that consume humanity change. Like rats getting bigger and fuel for demon larvae. And his seeing the deep and an age of deep seas was because he was literally liquid.
I think I watched the Bastard's Curse like 20 times.
How was the intro in Italian? Is that a new yt thing or everyone hears it in italian?
Oh shit. I thought this was an old video that i missed. Then I checked the date. Oh yeah! I'm ready for this. I'mglad you decided to reinvemt TBC. Thanks Y'ALL.
This is the best channel on TH-cam. I love you guys. I love all the listeners as well. I’m not alone in the real world. I have a family and they bring me a lot of fulfillment and joy. However, I am very alone in the pursuit of my passions. This community fulfills a very important function in my life for that reason. Thanks to all of you. I hope life finds you well!
I heard here for the first time that the Nameless King is the Founder of Lothric. Can maybe someone point me to a video where they discuss this theory in more detail?
You know, maybe one day I'll be cool & popular enough to be on one of these podcasts. 😎
You already are by virtue of watching 🥺
Where is that balcony in the cathedral of the deep?
It's kinda past where the mimic with the Deep Divine Tome is.
Sin grew wiser...? 🤔 I'd accept more chaotically enlightened instead. ^^ (Also Sophie is this blouse a set with that other blouse? 😊)
You guys are really gonna drop this during the super bowl!?
Football or Lore, you must choose, for one you'll see and the other..... well, you'll likely see both in the age of DVR, but you get the gist. Lol.
In hindsight the game wasnt worth it
@@leme3082 Lmao. I hear it ended in a draw, so there has to be another game. If so, then yeah, it wasn't.
How does the nameless king die?
Doesn't ever say, he might have burned himself up linking the fire since that's what Lothric is known for.
I'm confused - why is there some italian in the intro? And partially wrong by the way
"Ricordate di alzare il dito medio" lmao
Aside from Demons' Souls which I enjoyed but didn't *really* understand at the time, Dark Souls 2 was the first Souls game I played in earnest and it almost turned me off Soulsborne games entirely. So while I agree that the story is pretty good, it's disappointing gameplay wise and without DS3 I probably don't care about any of this. Of which I do an unreasonable amount.
🎉🎉🎉
Is there an MD ghiest episode?
It was yeaaars ago, we're going to do another one.
You two are so gorgeous and fun! 😍
It made me happy when you brought up the NK being deceased and the bell resurrecting him for the fight.
It's a theory I've held for some time, but I've never heard anyone else state.
It does beg the questions, though. Who could have killed him? How can a corpse absorb a fallen allies' soul? Why is there a setup to resurrect and duel him at all?
Ornstein, the sun and moon in the sky, the bell, the path of the dragon... it all makes my head hurt. I just want it to make sense 😂
DS1 lore was great. DS3 lore was too convoluted.
I know this has been discussed to death already but it always annoys me when people use she/her pronouns for Gwyndolin when I feel like his whole story points to him being more akin to a trans man, regardless of sexual characteristics (it doesn't matter). I know a lot of trans women feel connected to him but being female wasn't something he chose, it was something assigned to him at birth and he essentially transitions between 1 and 3, with Yorshka, his closest family member and loved one, referring to him as brother.
It never occurred to me that Gwyndolin's non-binary nature was the perfect usher for the final ending of the Age of Fire (and disparity)... Gwyndolin DID get done dirty :(
They're definitely one of the more interesting characters in the entire franchise
Algorithm feeding comment
Omg the title lmao
😅
Holy crap!! My weeb credentials go back to the days when u had to get your anime fix on VHS tapes, so I didn’t see anything I hadn’t heard before - but this is such a great integration of things I didn’t put together. Great job!!
Why the italian intro 😂? My brain realized that it was italian when you both started speaking english haha (im italian i appreciated a lot)
The answer lies in Katekyo Hitman Reborn :)