Thank you so much for this conversation, both of you. I am tearing up. I am feeling something aligning with my own story and walk with and towards Christ. You are not alone, dear brothers. Thank you. ❤️
Thank you for interviewing Rafe Kelley. I already follow his channel and his work. I appreciate his honesty. I know integrity means so much to him. I wish him all the best. I appreciate his mind and spirit. He has been through a lot, and it is an inspiration to see him find the way through the pain of his early life.
How can two hours of dialogue slip so easily down one's tract? I could sense the culmination across the virtual landscape. Thank you, and thank you for meeting at this place which allowed the unfurling of the very thing that needed to happen. The very thing that is already perfect, yet growing. I will also echo a sentiment that this conversational channel would work perfectly... as a way to be in a fully pregnant dialectical and spiritual lockstep. A wonderful friendship! We are greatly honored to witness all encounters. Amin, Amin. ❤️
23:00 the body/spirit integration is important. The incarnational vector of Christianity seems to me to be (forgive the pun) crucial here. When we imagine the physical body as just material stuff (or even just emergent material patterns-leaving out for now the incoherent idea that such patterns might cause mind to emerge), we miss an opportunity to relate to our physiology as a microcosm, or in Biblical terms, as the Imago Dei. Yes, the physiology is real!! But what is it? An image of spirit incarnate.
@@Xhris57You mapped this so organically. I am in gratitude and awe. I am truly sorry to intrude, but I am burning to ask... Who are you? This is a treasure!
Matt. This very thread has been a glowing through line, in so much of your inquiry that I actually experienced your silhouette begin to emboss the fabric of this dialogue. From cells as autopoietic interactions, to the organism as song, with its score in *mind.* The sanctity of the the body, being woven into every frame of its formation. Its muse. Its melody. Its code. Explorations of the concept of Theosis. It's life all the way down. Scaling up and down... The Imago Dei. Much love.❤️
Geez. What a great conversation. So much of this are exactly the questions I’ve been thinking about. It’s great to hear you both validate a lot of the thoughts I’ve had lately. I just subscribed to your channel. Appreciate John making me aware of you. Thanks!
The flow of this conversation was great. All the moves to the personal realm of experience really helped to progress the conversation whenever it became stifled by arguments. Lovely.
Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, Cyrano de Bergerac, iron man ... if only the modern iterations had some premodern comparative ... or an abstracted ideal configuration
Gentlemen, so good in so many different ways. Thank you for the dialogos that landed perfectly. Echoing Brendan‘s sentiments at the end, this is one of the best discussions I’ve heard in a while. A lot to digest, so diverse. Rafe, I’m so happy for where you’re at in your journey man and the profound impact it’s having on you, those around you, and all of us that hear your story and are encouraged. I look forward to the next installment in the series. 🙏🏼🤙
42:00 Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism eventually make the more Christian incarnational move correcting for the earlier emphasis on release via the bodhisattva’s vow.
25:23 ? I was listening to Paul and …. Talking about…recognizing there are many different narratives and then you choose to sit within a narrative … Can someone fill in this dialogue…seems there is a missing part
57:00 the real two-worlds mythology is modern science’s bifurcated image of nature separating human values and qualitative experiences from supposedly objective quantitative facts.
You’re dichotomizing the symbolic and the “literal”. Symbolism happens. And part of the symbolism of Christ, because of the importance of the incarnation, is its historical particularity.
@@matthewwilkinson2170 I did, but that's not what led to any of my deconstructive attitude to Christianity. That all happened earlier. In fact, Yale Div has a very healthy church community, including most of its faculty. Yale Div was a pretty healing environment and left me with a much more positive attitude to the tradition. Not saying div schools can't cause deconstruction. Harvard or Chicago, for example, have a very different vibe. But just as a point of fact about my own journey, no, it wasn't Yale Div that negatively influenced me towards Christianity. Just the opposite.
@@BrendanGrahamDempsey interesting. Good to know. I applied to do a church music degree there, but coming from a masters in germany, I would’ve essentially had to do almost a second masters degree (at least another year) before proceeding to the doctorate, which I wasn’t too keen on. I also grew up Pentecostal. Now Anglican. Hated the whole anti-scholastic thing they had. I Wish you’d talk to Pageau. I feel like you have a lot of hidden presuppositions that are fundamentally materialist. Maybe even you’d concede that point. But the whole symbolic framework Pageau promulgates isn’t in contrast to the “real”. It’s, as Rafe said, a different framework. And from that framework, miracles just aren’t a problem.
1:18:00 one of my challenges talking with Christians as a religious Jew is precisely that Christianity, at least in the forms I have encountered it, does not develop the forgiveness tradition deep or broadly enough compared to my own religion (and id say the same about love tbh) Now ofc that's the view of an outsider who has lived among Christians for years and read only a smattering of their works- I'm sure there is more I could explore
1:48:00 something that is frustrating me is that you are using 'real' and 'more real' as equivocally as you butted heads (in a gentle way) with Paul over
i struggled to recognize any defensiveness in this dialogue. It was beautiful. It made me wonder about our need to put a face or faces (and symbolic threads) to the powerful dynamics within our consciousness - and whatever arises from our subconsciousness. But to do that on our own is such a tall order unless you're Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell or Michael Meade. Finding it within a community, a collective, has so much more potential for an affective, phenomenological result (despite possible abuse from any leaders). So, is it relevant to ask - "What is Metamodern Psychotherapy?"
Thank you so much for this conversation, both of you. I am tearing up. I am feeling something aligning with my own story and walk with and towards Christ. You are not alone, dear brothers. Thank you. ❤️
Thank you for interviewing Rafe Kelley. I already follow his channel and his work. I appreciate his honesty. I know integrity means so much to him. I wish him all the best. I appreciate his mind and spirit. He has been through a lot, and it is an inspiration to see him find the way through the pain of his early life.
Thank you for being so vulnerable. This was so encouraging and inspiring.
How can two hours of dialogue slip so easily down one's tract? I could sense the culmination across the virtual landscape. Thank you, and thank you for meeting at this place which allowed the unfurling of the very thing that needed to happen. The very thing that is already perfect, yet growing. I will also echo a sentiment that this conversational channel would work perfectly... as a way to be in a fully pregnant dialectical and spiritual lockstep. A wonderful friendship! We are greatly honored to witness all encounters. Amin, Amin. ❤️
My God, what a great conversation. This felt like therapy for me!
Amazing convo both Rafe and Brendan!!
23:00 the body/spirit integration is important. The incarnational vector of Christianity seems to me to be (forgive the pun) crucial here. When we imagine the physical body as just material stuff (or even just emergent material patterns-leaving out for now the incoherent idea that such patterns might cause mind to emerge), we miss an opportunity to relate to our physiology as a microcosm, or in Biblical terms, as the Imago Dei. Yes, the physiology is real!! But what is it? An image of spirit incarnate.
@@Xhris57You mapped this so organically. I am in gratitude and awe. I am truly sorry to intrude, but I am burning to ask... Who are you? This is a treasure!
Matt. This very thread has been a glowing through line, in so much of your inquiry that I actually experienced your silhouette begin to emboss the fabric of this dialogue. From cells as autopoietic interactions, to the organism as song, with its score in *mind.* The sanctity of the the body, being woven into every frame of its formation. Its muse. Its melody. Its code. Explorations of the concept of Theosis. It's life all the way down. Scaling up and down... The Imago Dei. Much love.❤️
Geez. What a great conversation. So much of this are exactly the questions I’ve been thinking about. It’s great to hear you both validate a lot of the thoughts I’ve had lately. I just subscribed to your channel. Appreciate John making me aware of you. Thanks!
This is excellent!!
What a powerful story! Thanks for sharing Rafe! 1:14:06
The flow of this conversation was great. All the moves to the personal realm of experience really helped to progress the conversation whenever it became stifled by arguments. Lovely.
“What should character transformation be aimed at?” This is THE question, Rafe. Is there a supreme moral exemplar? A prototype for optimum humanity?
Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, Cyrano de Bergerac, iron man ... if only the modern iterations had some premodern comparative ... or an abstracted ideal configuration
Gentlemen, so good in so many different ways. Thank you for the dialogos that landed perfectly. Echoing Brendan‘s sentiments at the end, this is one of the best discussions I’ve heard in a while. A lot to digest, so diverse.
Rafe, I’m so happy for where you’re at in your journey man and the profound impact it’s having on you, those around you, and all of us that hear your story and are encouraged. I look forward to the next installment in the series. 🙏🏼🤙
53:50 Hey Rafe check out Jonael Schickler’s book “Metaphysics as Christology”
thanks Matt I will added it to the list.
@@RafeKelley I was going to suggest the same
This was great. Thanks gents!
42:00 Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism eventually make the more Christian incarnational move correcting for the earlier emphasis on release via the bodhisattva’s vow.
Brendan adds this a few minutes later 👍
Excellent conversation!
Perhaps the salient question of the empty tomb is not what would a Panasonic camera capture but what would my eyes see?
11:40 love that movie ❤
This was amazing.
25:23 ? I was listening to Paul and …. Talking about…recognizing there are many different narratives and then you choose to sit within a narrative …
Can someone fill in this dialogue…seems there is a missing part
Paul Anleitner another TH-camr in this little corner
@@RafeKelley thanks for the clarification. I see now that I’ve ran into his work too.
Thank you Rafe. Your story isn’t yours any more…. Thanks for sharing
Doing the good work
I'm interested if / how this experience of Rafe's effects his parkour.
My favourite metaphor is dimensions: length doesn't reduce to width and they are related.
57:00 the real two-worlds mythology is modern science’s bifurcated image of nature separating human values and qualitative experiences from supposedly objective quantitative facts.
You’re dichotomizing the symbolic and the “literal”. Symbolism happens. And part of the symbolism of Christ, because of the importance of the incarnation, is its historical particularity.
Maybe I misunderstood, but it’s so sad to me that one’s going to Yale Divinity School can effectively dissuade someone from Christianity
You misunderstood
Ok. But you went to Yale, yea?
@@matthewwilkinson2170 I did, but that's not what led to any of my deconstructive attitude to Christianity. That all happened earlier. In fact, Yale Div has a very healthy church community, including most of its faculty. Yale Div was a pretty healing environment and left me with a much more positive attitude to the tradition. Not saying div schools can't cause deconstruction. Harvard or Chicago, for example, have a very different vibe. But just as a point of fact about my own journey, no, it wasn't Yale Div that negatively influenced me towards Christianity. Just the opposite.
@@BrendanGrahamDempsey interesting. Good to know. I applied to do a church music degree there, but coming from a masters in germany, I would’ve essentially had to do almost a second masters degree (at least another year) before proceeding to the doctorate, which I wasn’t too keen on.
I also grew up Pentecostal. Now Anglican. Hated the whole anti-scholastic thing they had.
I Wish you’d talk to Pageau. I feel like you have a lot of hidden presuppositions that are fundamentally materialist. Maybe even you’d concede that point. But the whole symbolic framework Pageau promulgates isn’t in contrast to the “real”. It’s, as Rafe said, a different framework. And from that framework, miracles just aren’t a problem.
1:18:00 one of my challenges talking with Christians as a religious Jew is precisely that Christianity, at least in the forms I have encountered it, does not develop the forgiveness tradition deep or broadly enough compared to my own religion (and id say the same about love tbh)
Now ofc that's the view of an outsider who has lived among Christians for years and read only a smattering of their works- I'm sure there is more I could explore
1:48:00 something that is frustrating me is that you are using 'real' and 'more real' as equivocally as you butted heads (in a gentle way) with Paul over
i struggled to recognize any defensiveness in this dialogue. It was beautiful. It made me wonder about our need to put a face or faces (and symbolic threads) to the powerful dynamics within our consciousness - and whatever arises from our subconsciousness. But to do that on our own is such a tall order unless you're Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell or Michael Meade. Finding it within a community, a collective, has so much more potential for an affective, phenomenological result (despite possible abuse from any leaders).
So, is it relevant to ask - "What is Metamodern Psychotherapy?"
This is excellent!!