Ergonomic Mice & Keyboards
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 มิ.ย. 2024
- Full links and details: ocdevel.com/blog/20240110-erg...
Alleviate RSI & CTS with an ergonomic mouse and keyboard. Recommended: SlimbBlade Pro (amzn.to/3RQERbv) & Glove80 (www.moergo.com/). Discussed mice: ELECOM Huge, Deft Pro, bitra; Kensington Expert, Slimblade; Logitech MX Ergo. Discussed keyboards: Dygma Defy, Raise; Kinesis Advantage 360; ZSA Voyager, Moonlander, Ergodox EZ; Mistel Barocco MD770; Glove80. - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
i am 42 years old mechanical engineer and nowadays my right arm shoulder have realy bad pain. So i try to learn ergonomic works and your channel is amazing about his .
For any mouse with side buttons, i suggest clicking the button closest to you with the inside of your thumb knuckle to click it instead of curling your thumb under. Saves so much pain and makes it much better to use.
THANK YOU! The best review and comparison of the trackball mice! Thank you for sharing your personal mice journey! I had a lot of questions and hesitations that the video helped with.
Very nice, well organized video. You gave a lot of useful information, thank you!
Fantastic video. Really helpful information. Thanks for putting it, and your website, together!
Really appreciate it, glad you watched it!
The intro is so on point hahah...i followed the exact same order of mice...
Amazing overview on ergonomic devices.
I've got the kensington expert trackball over a year ago and totally cure my hand from RSI. Absolutely recommended.
Awesome to hear the Expert Trackball's made a positive impact on your daily computing! Your shoutout means a lot. Count on us for ergonomic tech and a comfy experience. 🖲🫶
How long did it take you to get used to the Expert? I got the Slimblade Pro, which is very similar, but I'm going to war with the learning curve on this one. Do you hover or rest your hand?
Thanks!
Absolute best video on the topic I found, thanks!
it doest cover the trackpad.. like the one from apple :) i think its even better then all these mouse kinda concepts...
@@PascalVosHaving a separate trackpad that you can put on the left or right is the biggest factor ergonomically. Instead of painfully in the middle of a laptop.... where your elbow has to fold/bend inwards since it's closer than the keyboard, he should try a separate trackpad at his desk.
However, the Slimblade etc have multiple defined buttons instead of gestures (preference really), but the tent shape with the ball being higher than the buttons helps keep your hand in a natural position instead of flat.
@@penguinsushi8442 o yes im not talking about trackpad on a laptop :) there not it.
rsi mostly comes from small movements AFIAK so buttons/macro;s are fine
@@PascalVosAh I see. Yeah it makes a huge difference with a trackpad in a comfortable position, it being in front and in the centre is only usable for brief periods, really. RSI comes from repetitive movements that aren't ergonomically comfortable IMO (I'm no expert).
verrryyyy detailed comparisons !!!!
I owned a wireless Trackman FX and I miss it so much. Gripping the ball on both sides with fingers and thumb is superior to any other configuration. I use the Slimblade now and it's a good choice for all the reasons you mentioned.
Thank you for the recommendations! I have shoulder pain that causes pain all along my arms, so I'm interested in trying out different mice that would hopefully let me heal.
Had my first tinges of RSI about 20 years ago. At that time I switched to Dvorak layout... and just happened to come across a Logitech TrackMan Marble FX Trackball at a second hand store. I love that design, shame it fell out of use due to Gart vs. Logitech in 2001. I need a PS2-USB not-just-dumb-converter for my Dvorak Model M, so I'll continue to have a way to plug in my Marble FX as well. I've had to deal w/ microswitch replacements and plastic failures to keep my current one going, but I keep her chugging along (and have another in reserve, in case of total failure).
Marble. From what I understand people who loved it love Nulea m505, sanwa gravi, ProtoArc e03, Ploopy classic. I hear Ploopy classic is the quality pick; Nulea is the runner up. You've probably already seen these, but JUST in case.
Hey, thanks for the video man.
For the slimeblade, you can put a finger on top of the ball and user another to spin to scroll with less movement. I might get a trackpad tent it and put it on my left side I can click with any finger scroll with any two fingers etc.
Thanks for the awesome video Tyler! Do you have any thoughts on the Protoarc EM03 by any chance? I just noticed this product and it's refreshing to see the OG Microsoft Explorer. Would love to hear what you think!
I haven't tried that one yet. But I'm aware of that, Nuclea M505, and Sanwa Gravi. These 3 being the modern MS Explorer / Logitech Marble alternatives. My hunch from Reddit has been that the Gravi takes the cake in this camp, but I'm not confident on that assessment.
I've got an Elecom Huge and a Lily58 that I've printed out some tenting/risers. I need to print out some steeper risers for my keyboard and I need to get a new mouse. I'm not a fan of the "Spinning the ball for the scroll" of the Slimblade, so I'd probably get the Expert and print a different base to angle it better.
For anyone happy to go a little bit of soldering getting a DIY split keyboard is a great way to get into split keyboards on a tighter budget.
My issue is actually with the middle knuckle on my index finger (from scrolling a LOT - zooming in & out in CAD). The Elecom Huge is very nice (once you change the bearings). You can actually thumb scroll by moving your hand rather than bending your thumb. I also have the Kensington Expert - but I like the Elecom Huge better. As a bonus the Elecom software allows for way more functions (I had been using Razer Naga Left-Handed Edition). As usual, results may vary.
the scroll wheel on the thumb is no issue, I have both elecom's the huge and the deft pro and the scroll wheel is really comfortable, my only issue is it doesn't have the free wheeling that the Master MX3 has. I would love it.
Important to mention about good split keyboards is that they should be "column staggered". I am a ZSA Voyager owner and I can say it's really super good! Portability (as opposed to the Glove80) is one of its strong points: you can easily bring it with you when you go to the office or even travelling. Why don't you put the trackball in the middle in between the two halves of the keyboard? That way you can put your keyboards halves even further apart. Have you heard of / tried the Roller Mouse? Where would you place that in the journey to 100% ergonomic mouse?
The Voyager's portability is just unbeatable. The reason I don't put my mouse between the two halves is I need all the gap I can get in the middle, I want my wrists shoulder-width apart for joint health; mouse in the middle would have me reaching inwards. Might be a luxury of my desk, that I can have everything so far apart. But I did try middle mouse once and it didn't work for me RSI-wise. I have never seen RollerMouse before, what the heck is this thing! You've just sent me down a rabbit hole.
I've just found this video after purchasing the slimblade pro a few days ago. I come from a cheap vertical mouse (no issues with it, i just though: why not?) and after the first day with the slimblade i've started to feel a lot of tension building up in my wrist, forearm and feeling a numb thumb and pinky. Then, i started to experiment with the angle, posture, desk height, left hand instead of right (and developing tension also in the left arm after a full day of usage).
I've been fighting the idea to return it since i fell in love with the thumball itself: i love the design of the device and the fact that i can operate it without moving my arm.
I love the tactile feeling of moving the cursor with just my fingers.
But the ergonomics is screwed with this one.
Dunno. I'll try to use it as you suggest in the video. If that won't work, i'll just have to return it.
I just wish it was designed with a little more consideration for ergonomics, honestly. Otherwise, great device.
You didn't by chance get the thumball version (you mentioned "I fell in love with the thumball itself")? I think that thumball Slimblade Pro is model TB550. The one I'm recommending is the finger-ball one. But from the context of your comment, it sounds like you're using the finger-ball version. That's pretty telling if you switched to left hand and quickly started feeling pain there; that's a pretty bad omen. I'm sorry if it doesn't work out and I led you astray here. It's so interesting hearing others' experiences different from my own, since it was such a black-and-white RSI fix for myself. I suppose one size doesn't fit all after all! If you do return it, you may want to explore some of the more ergonomic-designed mice, like the Elecom Huge. Just keep in mind that it suffers from bearings quality issues, many end up modding it to replace the static bearings with ruby or steel bearings. After you do that, you have the best of all worlds; it's just not for the faint of heart, they're not really "meant" to be modded.
I use a Elecom Huge and home and for work I have a Logitech M575. I find both great. Of course I don't have RSI or any issues yet, but prevention is better than cure.
Prevention indeed, baby. Might I recommend prioritizing Huge, with that in mind. M575 is near identical to MX Ergo, and I've seen even thumb-ball lovers lament the consequences. IMO, Huge is as ergonomic as it gets.
Great video! I’ve been trying to decide if that Kensington is worth the money. It’s over $200 here in Australia! Sounds like it’s probably worth it though.
I don't know if I'd pay $200 for it. How much are X-Keys L-Trac & Gameball in AUS? They're strong contenders that I'd personally buy if they're much cheaper.
@@lefnireit's more expensive than the Kensington pro by $50 usd, it's probably almost twice as much more in aus unfortunately. I like my Gameball for gaming, but the ball is smaller so accuracy isn't as good as the pro, and you basically have to squeeze the Gameball to use the buttons on it, so I doubt it's better ergonomically. It's better than a mouse, but the slimblade is probably more comfortable in the long run
i try to keep an open mind, and i absolutely agree my hand would be better in a vertical or at least diagonal position, but i can't see how any of these ball pads would be more comfortable than a standard mouse, seeing how you claw your mice
You have to try it to believe it. It doesn't fully make sense spoken, I found myself publishing the video thinking "well that didn't add up" but with a fully healed RSI. I wish you could just test drive one for a week, but they're so expensive. If you don't want to make the Slimblade leap, you could try Deft Pro which is closer to what I described as ergonomic with words. But my worry is you'll follow the journey I see so often, which is kind of expensive. I recommend buying something that resonates more for you, the cheapest version on eBay. Most ergo mice users have too many, because they do this Goldilocks journey, so you don't want to pay full price until you commit
Just take care with the Logitech MX Ergo. That's the one a lot of people jump to because it has such strong tenting, which fits the wrist RSI bill. But that thumb motion is very severe - worse than thumb scroll wheels. What I'd recommend is grab a cheap vertical mouse and see how that feels. If your wrist still hurts, grab a cheap tented fingerball mouse. And just keep the Slimblade in the back of your mind; see how often it pops up in forums, etc.
4:05 Have you tried using the bottom of your fingers near the first joint rather than the tips of your fingers? I use both my pointer and middle finger essentially at this joint. I use my ring finger for the scroll ring. It is a much more natural posture closer to being naturally relaxed.
I've gone through at least six Kensington Orbit's (aka Eagle, the one with the scroll ring and they also made a wireless version of) at home in the last decade and have a spare in case I can't find one on sale. The smaller trackballs are better for gaming because even with maxed out pointer acceleration the ball size of the SlimBlade and Expert are too slow. I do wish it had at least one more button, Kensington could put a single straddle, or a pair across the middle for a middle button function, left or right, and whatever you want to assign button 4 to if you really want it. The Orbit w/ Scroll Ring's biggest weakness unfortunately is its mouse buttons. The left one (as I am using it right handed) will typically fail between 12-24 months after purchase.
8:34 I did buy the wired version of the Expert trackball at one point, got it replaced because the ball barely moved in its socket, and that replacement was also next to useless. Someone in the comments mentioned needing to roll it around forcefully a lot before it became useable but it should be properly tested before leaving the factory. I would also say the Scroll Ring Orbit has better ergonomics than the Expert as well.
12:10 I've had a SlimBlade Trackball for work for at least a decade now, before they had wireless options, and why I started using an Scroll Ring Orbit at home. The left button now has a spot worn through to the plastic. I have the front two buttons mapped but barely ever use them. I also predominantly use keyboard shortcuts and then the trackball only when MacOS doesn't provide (or takes away) that option, so at most 25% of the time. It's a fantastic trackball I'd use for any work. I do wonder however about that tab in the left side of it that is supposed to be for having several of them semi-locked together. A weird decision that has no effect on me but I wonder if anyone has ever used.
Before this I had a Microsoft Trackball before they stopped making them. This was, and honestly still is, better than any of the Logitech trackballs then, or even now for that matter. Those are just too small to be useful.
I'd love to hear your opinion on your recommended trackball for purchasing now too, as you seem very knowledgable. I'm specifically looking for the best one that supports 2.4GHz wireless and Bluetooth for travel. E.g. you mention a seemingly not-so-durable Kensington Orbit - would you recommend the 2021 Wireless Trackball with Scroll Ring version of that (K70990WW) over SlimBlade Pro or Elom Bitra?
As someone who has the logi mouse for many years now and has no thumb pain issues, I thought it looked weird how you hold the mouse/rest you thumb on the mouse. I have the thumb much further back and resting against the side of the ball; not on the top. I tried to hold it like you have shown in the video and could immediately feel that there would be pain in the long run if I were to hold it like that.
For anybody out there thinking about getting something like the logi mouse or any other of the products - try it for yourself in a shop or test it in time of some form of return window and experiment with different grips only you can tell what feels right for your body.
your problem with the scroll wheel on the thumb is that you try to use it with the tip, just like you would with a regular mouse, I don't, I use the part where the finger print is and role the wheel with it.
Nice video!
I've been using a SlimBlade (not pro) and a Moonlander for some years.
They are great and I can recommend both, but not perfect.
The SlimBlade needs cleaning often and it's not tilted.
The Moonlander has hard to reach thumb keys and needs some mounting to get a good tilt.
One nice thing I do is moving the cursor with the keyboard. It's really practical and more ergonomic than reaching a mouse.
SlimBlade really does need a lot of cleaning. How do you move the cursor via keyboard?
@@lefnire All ZSA keyboards use the QMK firmware, which allows mapping keys to mouse movements and buttons. All in hardware so it works everywhere.
I configured a layer just for that.
In software, I use vim plug-ins everywhere I can and lots of shortcuts. This also reduces my need for a mouse.
@@jbslv sounds incredible, hope to try someday. Would love to mostly ditch a mouse
I have been using an Advantage for 15+ years and can never go back to 100% using a flat keyboard. I put in a pre-order for the 360 as soon as it was available. It’s tenting is solid; better than the unibody Advantage, but not as extreme as you are getting with your add-on feet. Those could probable be added to the 360 pretty easily to get a much more extreme tent, however. I’m going to look into that.
I also have the Deft Pro, which has triple connectivity: USB, RF, and BT. I really like the ergonomics on it, but it’s Bluetooth connectivity is spotty. It loves a fresh battery, but it will chew through them too quickly. I bought some rechargeable batteries and it goes a couple of weeks where MacOS reports it as momentarily having 40% battery but usually 1% battery. I’ve used it wired and it’s pretty solid when I do; haven’t really used the RF mode as I don’t have a USB-A port on my MacBook.
360 is an incredible keyboard. I'm actually torn between it and Glove80. I feel like the keywells that 360 & 80 have maybe compensate for some lack of tenting somehow, since I didn't feel the angle-pain as much when using them as I do with Mistel, Dygma, ZSA.
Yeah I don't know what's up with these Bluetooth trackball mice; I've had the same experience with other ones (bitra, MX Ergo). 2.4ghz all the way, they have these little nubbins www.amazon.com/Adapter-Anker-High-Speed-Transfer-Notebook/dp/B08HZ6PS61 . But unless you're mobile (and taking the mouse), wired is just fine for us track-ballers. Worse for standard mice people, since it pulls/drags on their mouse while they move it.
This is sick, but man when you had the keyboards propped up on a diagonal i was completely bamboozled. I have 0 ability to type fast when my wrists aren't resting on anything. Split the keyboard? sure! no wrist contact? Ruins me lol, like a 50 wpm difference
Something I'm confused by with the expert ball mouse and stuff, it seems like you're still pronating your wrist from using it since your hand is at a not handshake position. I'm currently using a Logitech MX Vertical at home and an MX Ergo at work.
The expert definitely, it's terrible form. The slimblade yes, but its other benefits outweigh the pronation. It would be ideal if it were tented, and there are mods to do that. So it's not perfect, but its pros are worth it
I had a Slimblade a couple of years ago, however the bottom left button (main left click) stopped working within about 10 months of use. But there were no many people using it. Apparently it is a known issue where the switches are not as tough and durable as what would find on the Expert. But the Slimblade is pretty much the best that I've used. I loved the scroll feature of the Slimblade.
Currently the HUGE is the one that I like because it has lasted the longest so far with zero issues. The wrist rest of the HUGE does show a lot of wear right now.. The padding seem to be wearing off. I guess its the friction when the palm rubbing against it.
Ohhh I did see that floating around, I thought I was mis-remembering till you mentioned it. I believe it; the SlimBlade switches do seem more fragile than the Expert. My partner and I each have SlimBlade for 2 years, no problems yet. But if this goes out, I want to try the Ploopy Adept next. Same layout, stronger switches, dynamic bearings, 6 buttons.
@@lefnire I would have gladly bought another Slimblade but at the time, the store had none is stock and offered me a Orbit as direct warranty replacement. I claimed that the value was not the same, rejected it and got my money back. I thought of getting another Slimblade but the worry of the switches going out on me again had me rethink the idea. I ended with the HUGE. The Ploopy is basically a new duplication of the Microsoft Trackball Explorer - which is what the HUGE is supposed to emulate as well. The scrolling is on the thumb, but it is not as bad as you might think. Again, I don't have any issues with my fingers yet.
@@007Knightjp right right. I'm actually eyeballing the Ploopy Adept (not Classic), which is more an answer to Expert / SlimBlade. Sorry you had such a bum experience with SlimBlade anyway, that's frustrating. Glad Huge / M505 are working for you!
@@lefnire After seeing your review, I'm hoping to give the Slimblade another try.
@@007Knightjp I'd feel terrible if your switches went out again!! You have a good thing going for you 😅
Nice, i'm a developer myself trying to get away from a mouse altogether, but because I do a lot of frontend its impossible. This helps a lot and it is reassuring that another developer has greenlit the slimblade as a viable option inside an IDE.
using trackpad like the one from apple is also nice ... just leaving the mouse concept behind all together
I bought the SlimBlade Pro first and keep trying others to replace it because the clicks are so loud - but it hasn't been beat yet. May have started with the "endgame"
You're lucky, it took me years of frustrations to finally find it!
@@lefnire I’m just wasting my time in reverse ;) the scroll ball is just so fun to use
We're thrilled to hear that the SlimBlade Pro has set the bar high for you! 🖲🫶
as i read your blog it became clear what your endgame is before reached the glove80, the pros and cons for all keyboards pointed clear in that direction, but as you made it the answer is not so easy, the simple question is what do a single user want,
at the actual market i see three different endgames depend on what are your priorities, the glove, the voyager and the defy
.
and be careful in comparisons, the ZSA products all are wired only, this makes them cheaper and for example you can order a wired defy cheaper than your tag, tenting is the next issue you add, how much is the additonal cost for an self built addon, at the end it is realistic to be for all in the 400-500 price range if you want a real endgame board
Glove, Voyager, and Defy are the 3 endgames I'd consider as well. I might throw Advantage 360 in there though. I'll do wired options for all and adjust the prices per your comment. LMK if you have suggested tenting mods for Voyager, Glove. I'd love to add those with optional prices. (Defy, 360 have built-in/option)
is that the normal mouse that you used to use? any explanation as to why it's so small (and whether you think that's worse or better for rsi?)
I personally use a drawing tablet(imo less convenient but as ergonomic as an expert), so I don't have a horse in this race, but I'm just curious.
No, I was using the Razer DeathAdder. Just had been so long I had it stuffed away somewhere and this was nearby. Small is worse, this little guy would be my death
@@lefnire wow, rapid reply! that's what I had assumed
Kensington needs to add fingerprint reader to their expert mouse, I have 2 that I have been using both for over 10 years they are that good. But need to upgrade to incorporate the biometric reader for windows and other sites.
Thanks for taking the time to make this very informative video. In one of your responses below you said "It would be ideal if it were tented, and there are mods to do that." I would like to know how to make those mods. Can you point me to something?
So, the mods I've seen are 3d-printed wedges, custom shaped for the SlimBlade. I can't find them now, but they're not the easiest thing since you'll need a 3d printer. If you click my blog post in the link, find the MD770 tenting legs I used; potentially these could be used with the SlimBlade. I tried a bit, but couldn't get them to stay stable. Personally I gave up on tenting the SlimBlade. It's just fine for me flat, as long as I hover my hand over like Saruman. If I try to rest my wrist, I get problems. I'd try it flat for a while, hover-hand, then if it feels off just Google "SlimBlade custom tenting"
Thanks for the super quick response. I just ordered a sllimblade pro. I'll try it as is for a while and look for mods later maybe. thanks again
@@jamesdavis9581 You can't go wrong. I just got another trackball recently - Gameball, one of the greats. It's precision is fantastic due to non-static bearings. But the ergonomics is rough enough that I just went back to SlimBlade. SlimBlade is like - you want to explore, but you'll just keep coming back to it. I have a hunch you won't end up bothering with mods, my RSI is fixed without mods.
I have been using a thumb mouse (starting with the original wired Logitech trackball, then the m570/m575) for decades and I have no problem with fine control. I am a photo retoucher and use it for that work every day. I also have had no issues with repetitive stress in my thumb. I actually prefer the shape of the old M570 to the M575. The MX Ergo is a total misfire.
Just remember - your mileage may vary.
Others have pointed out that I should be using the pad of the thumb, rather than the tip, which reduces the amount of angular motion on the thumb joint. I'm going try testing this on MX Ergo in coming weeks and see if the RSI flares up.
The expert and slimball would be great if I didn't work in 3d software, I'd have to hold down one of the mouse buttons to move the camera in 3d space with my index finger and then roll with my middle finger and I think that would cause strain over time.
I'd be interested how Expert fares ergonomically for the points you've given. BTW, I think SlimBlade wouldn't work at all for 3d because my assumption is you need all 3 freedoms - cursor, scroll, buttons - and SlimBlade is either/or on cursor vs scroll
Can you click and drag on the slimblade pro? Or multi select? Can you show how thats done?
Click and drag is as you'd expect. You use your thumb to hold down for the primary click, then you move the ball. Like so. It's no different than other mice, honestly. I'll post the gif. Frankly I find SlimBlade easier to click and drag since, while you hold the thumb-button you're not lifting the mouse and re-positioning for longer "strides" - you're just "restarting" your middle finger, which takes smaller motions. media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExdW0yNmduemVqYmpsaDVxNG9nMG9udTR3bnQxeGVmNzhtczVyd25vbyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/4WCfKXgEFxtW61H9dw/giphy.gif
Bro you gotta do different product reviews, it’s awesome and such a joy to see.
That's really good to hear, thanks for saying that. I definitely will do - I want to review Ploopy Adept and maybe Classic; as well as ProtoArc EM03, based on this post www.reddit.com/r/Trackballs/comments/1bl7b4n/which_modern_mtestyle_trackball_do_you_prefer/. Eventually I'll do Deft Pro & Huge too, but I'm not as sold on them as most people are since I'm not a DIY kinda guy (replacing the bearings). Thanks for the kind words!
@@lefnire I just received my Slimblade Pro, and loving it so far. Thanks a lot man! You can also do efficient software reviews and misc. products that is worth knowing imho for healthy living, efficiency of work and life ツ
@@theluckyone777 you're awesome! I totally plan on doing just this. I have a video on the walking desk, that's my #1 lifehack; and I'll start branching out more when I get time. It's really validating to hear it's landing well
have you tried the kickstand for Slimblade?
Not an official kickstand, just a few attempts with various wedges and random stuff around the house. I didn't find it as "valuable" as kick-standing the keyboard. I don't know why exactly, but just from my experience it doesn't seem to be as necessary ergonomically.
Your regular mouse suck, no wonder. I personally have a few mmorpg mouse. I was thinking to get the apple magic trackpad 2 to use on my arch linux workstation for when i need precision, what would you rate the last 2 kensington ?
My regular mouse before this was Razer DeathAdder; I just used that one for reference since it was nearby. I still don't know enough about trackpads for ergonomics, it's not really discussed in the ergo community from what I've seen. Ergo aside, I personally find the trackballs (the two Kensingtons) easier to use / steer long-term, plus they have multiple buttons, while roughly following the same usage-style (in a strange metaphor way) as a trackpad.
Surely a lot of this must be down to individual adaptation. I spent £320 and bought the glove 80 keyboard and spent weeks trying to get used to it and it was awful. Just could not adapt and felt no benefit to having the keyboard on two sides of the desk.
I wouldn't call trackballs ergonomic. with the Master MX you move the wrist very little if you use a finger tip grip and you rest your hand on the side and then crank up the DPI, you move it far less than with the kensington trackballs.
What about the software? I am seeing that the Kensington is not that great?
It's fine, I use it. There's no profiles (you can't have right-hand / left-hand profile swaps), and maybe it has fewer options than alternatives. The next step up is XMouse (Windows) or SteerMouse (Mac) which are better, and compatible with pretty much all mice (including Kensington). Just a bit more learning curve.
damn, I just got the pro fit ergo vertical trackball from keningston and I don't really don't like it so much
Those damn thumb-balls! I was so excited when I got the MX Ergo, and it was so clear after a week: this ain't it.
We're sorry to hear that the Pro Fit Ergo Vertical Trackball hasn't met your expectations. We appreciate your feedback, and we'd love to learn more about your experience. Feel free to share your thoughts or reach out to our support team for assistance.
@@KensingtonTechnology WOW! didn't expect a reply from you guys, but keep it up with the quality of the products, I just bought a slimbade pro and I'm really happy with it, the only "issue" is how can I make it tilt a little bit, maybe a tilted base or some external feet
Ah, see I’ve solved this issue for mice by spending the last few years slowly optimizing my setup to the point that mice are nearly irrelevant to my workflow. It’s truly exceptional how comfortable and efficient computer usage is when you don’t need a mouse anymore.
That said, ergonomic keyboards? Absolutely incredible, can’t go without them these days
🤣 at 4:10 I started typing "what are your thoughts on the elecom huge?"
after hearing your concerns with the scroll wheel position on the deft pro and huge (I have/use both) I felt I should share my experience. While the deft pro has a steeper and more comfortable wrist angle, the huge addresses all of the concerns you had in your assumption. the scroll wheel is placed centrally to your resting thumb position, the ball centers your index more to the right than the kensington so the center of your palm itself is encouraged to sit farther back and float above the apex of the supporting curvature. This keep flexure of the thumb joint to a minimum, less than that of the index, surprisingly and even for very large hands. Altogether the opposition of your thumb and index work together to dictate the leverage imparted to the device thus preventing you from putting pressure on your median nerve in default resting position. the extended length of the palm rest conforms to place any pressure evenly across the hypothenar group, this third point not only acts in preventing restricted circulation in your radial artery but also defines the complete plane of thumb pad, index pad and hypothenar eminence. all other digits are freely floating (which is a wonder why they didn’t assign more keys to that part of the mouse.
you want a more practical example of how ergonomic and comfortable this mouse is?
I typed this entire comment with the macos virtual keyboard viewer, using the Huge.
edit: tl;dr, no matter what you are doing on the elecom huge, your whole hand always stays as straight as an anatomical textbook drawing. more naturally relaxed than your hand is in your sleep. no lie, try it!
Why not using the feets (or mouth) for mouse control so we never have to take our hand away from the keyboard ?
There's totally a steering board you put your feet on, and press left/right feet down for clicking. It gets advertised to me periodically, but I can't find it now I'm looking. But anyway, they're too late. We have Neural Link enroute
@@lefnire Don't want to get stuck with an iphone 1 in my head xD
Maybe eye tracking is good enough to control a mouse cursor (for non gaming) but I need to research this a bit.
I tried to put my mouse pad on the floor today and use the mouse with my feet@@lefnire.
I rebound the clicks on the keyboard and I was surprised how well it worked out, I even tried some aim labs for fun.
After working all day I had a bit of pain ankles and knee pain (probably not used to that kind of movements).
Fast large movements are good, but precision movements takes more time than the hand.
I also browsed about eye tracking, it's the same scenario, you can jump somewhere quickly but when you stare at something, the eye never stop to move which makes precision harder.
I find the buttons on the Slimblade to have a terrible feel. Just not a crisp as they should be. Do like the customization software. Good video.
another tool could be eye tracker
the first mouse you showed, you were using the thumb buttons incorrectly. you should have you whole thumb on both buttons, and to actuate the inner (usually back button) you hit it with the inside of the thumb, not moving the position. imagine a rocking motion. i have nearly an identical mouse and thats how ive always hit that button. now granted i am double jointed on my thumb but i believe thats how most people hit that button.
You're talking about the vertical mouse? Interesting, it might be worth giving it another shot then, if nothing more than gaming (since I still find trackballs a bit tough for gaming). Others have informed me I'm not using the thumball (Logitech MX Ergo) correctly, along the same line - you're supposed to use only your thumb pad, with an emphasis on staying "middle"
Yeah, it helps a lot. But mine just pooped the bed so I’m in the market for a new mouse and your video came across my feed. I’ll look into some of the other ones you’ve shown here. Thanks!
@@animepersonthing Highly recommend a fingerball if you're willing for something different. BTW, I just ordered a Ploopy Adept to give it a shot. It has the dynamic bearings and high polling rate of a GameBall; but the form factor of SlimBlade, so it might be the best of both worlds. I'll do a video when I get it.
why not use a apple trackpad?
im missing a stand alone trackpad.. thats way better then all these ...
Ah yeah, I forgot to tackle trackpads. In my research journey for optimal ergonomics, especially around RSI, trackpads didn't really come up often; it was always trackballs or occasionally vertical mice. Everyone scuffling over thumball vs fingerball, with the rare trackpad mention. Honestly I just took that at face value and didn't do the 1-week RSI test myself.
@@lefnire your wrist is way flater so its nicer to work with but getting use to a bit if your doing office jobs its perfect :)
next update, add my mouse, the kensington orbit
I have the Orbit Fusion in this video, which I've understood to the successor. Does the Orbit have merits outside Orbit Fusion? How do you link the Orbit?
Honestly just get a Zowie EC2 gaming mouse and that would be more ergonomic than all specialised ergonomic gear.
It's no wonder you have RSI in your thumb with how hard you curl it into unnatural formations to interact with buttons. You don't have to use exclusively the tip of your thumb to hit buttons you know. Your thumb has a pad like the rest of your fingers that works great for pushing buttons without curling it unnaturally. Instead of curling your thumb into such a position try pressing the buttons with the bottom of the pad of your thumb closer to where the knuckle joint is. I think you find the answer to why people like so many thumb buttons.
I've seen a lot of this sentiment in the comments, focusing on only using the thumb pad. I plan to give it a shot in coming weeks. Will take some brain-rewiring not to use muscle memory.
Your technique looks like you should be getting RSI! Relax more, rest your wrist a bit more, and use your fingers and finger tips more - to move the mouse. Also drop your elbow more; no need to be entirely flat forearm, wrist and hand - with respect to the table surface.
I likely don't do a good job showing proper use as I'm describing the options and exaggerating usage. I have another video on treadmills where I record myself actually working, which is much closer to the descriptions you give
@@lefnire I'll have to design a kb someday... I'm surprised that not a single kb designer seems to know how a relax hand sits... I guess there's little overlap between body movement expertise and computer geekery. If a toddler had the coordination and fine motor skills, then that's more like how it should be. I realize the vid isn't about keyboards tho.
sounds cool and all, but for CAD users all these trackball devices are junk.
Is it indeed so? I have an eye to what CAD & gamers experience from this, since I'm definitely a "standard" user (programmer). I value precision and ease-of-use I think more than the average bear, since I work too much, but definitely less than gamers & CAD users. If you ever did want to experiment, I think you'd prefer Ploopy Adept or Ploopy Classic, which has dynamic bearings, stronger sensors and switches. Ploopy is noted among those who crave pixel-perfection. I've never used one, but they keep coming up since I released this video for that purpose.
@@lefnire Yes it really only works with text heavy tasks, where keyboard being the primary tool and trackball being secondary. It definitely makes sense for programming. For CAD users it's hard, a normal mouse allows not just finger and palm movements but also forearm movements. Also, CAD is all about CONSTANT clicking and bigger movements like dragging (eg. press and hold a key and move in order to pan), which is just not optimal on a trackball...Imagine holding left click with your thumb and let the ball scroll freely and stop it when it hits the desired point. This is where its accuracy drops. While on a mouse you hold left click with your index finger and pan with your forearm, AND you can actually feel how far you moved on the desk surface. Just one of the many examples where its more intuitive to use a mouse. I have my whole table as my area of movement (and you can predict the distance travelled accurately due to the desk surface reflecting your screen space), while on a trackball you need to roll it freely then stop. Most likely you are gonna overshoot. And if I need to do that constant readjustment as a CAD user whose task is basically hitting every point accurately non-stop, it's not gonna work...
In defence of normal mice; that normal mouse you have kinda sucks
I used the Razer DeathAdder actually, and seriously regret not showing that for this video (I just grabbed the first one I saw, just for reference)
@@lefnire I personally have WAAAY to many ultra lightweight gaming mice at home. At work though, I figured I should get ahead of RSI before it starts so I'm starting to look at trackball mice
@@CrimsonRegalia good on you for getting ahead of it! For work I will always favor SlimBlade Pro. But if you want something that also can be used for gaming, I don't recommend SlimBlade; I recommend Ploopy Classic or GameBall. Ploopy Classic is more ergonomic than GameBall, while still boasting better smoothness / precision than static-bearing mice like SlimBlade - so if you want one mouse for all options, that's the best pick. But GameBall, while less ergonomic than Ploopy Classic (by a lot), is more smooth / precise than Ploopy. For that reason it makes a better dedicated gaming trackball mouse, if you have a secondary trackball for work (that's what I do: SlimBlade + GameBall).
I dislike the slimblade. The buttons take too much pressure to press and the scroll method is also more difficult. I wish there were a flatter expert mouse, but the better buttons and scrollwheel are enough for me to continue using it. The wrist wrest is ok, but still too low on the expert. I'm also not sure about your form, and that is possibly because you lack the wrist rest. I keep my hand much flatter. I rest the middle joint of my middle finger on the top of the ball and use that form to navigate left and right. To navigate down I close my hand pulling the ball downwards. To go up i close my hand and use the tips of my middle/pointer finger to push up. I use my ring finger for the scroll wheel. It's much easier to throw the ring on the expert compared to the slimblade.
You might consider the Ploopy Adapt, given your yes/no on SlimBlade vs Expert. Adept has lower profile, but more sensitive / durable switches (plus dynamic bearings). From what I understand, you click or hold a button to turn the ball into a smooth omni scroll (so an entirely 3rd approach). My form in this video is pretty exaggerated; to see it in reality, watch my Treadmill Desk video.