We need another video explaining what each feature on the bcg does. Are you guys using a shorter gas key with closer staked nuts to take advantage of extended bolt stroke? Also why the bcg buffer end bulge? And what makes the buffer system better? Is the cam pin now on some kind of rotating ring? Why the sharp cut out in the bcg head face?
There is a podcast that we have to publish about this. The shirter key allows .250” more bcg travel with the special buffer for smoother cycling. The .980” anti tilt ring reduces upper wear and lug impact to extension lug recesses. The cut in the front of the carrier was designed to give case head separation overpressure a safer place to go than into the carrier to split the carrier and upper receiver. The cam pin track is .06” longer than standard and allows the system more time to depressurize prior to unlocking. The lugs have .03 radius at left and right and .04 at rear root corner for improved strength. The springs are 17-7 for greater temperature resistance to set.
@@austingreen3888 awesome reply. I really look forward learning more about this BCG and might seriously buy this. I've been looking for a BCG like the Surefire OBC or LWRC but they come with too many cons or features I don't want. Is this new BCG going to be coated in high lubricity coating like DLC or QPQ?
@@impulse1914 The finish on the BCG is black magnetite. It has a lubricity like DLC. We in testing ran 17-4 H900 carriers also and those worked totally fine with no abnormal wear patterns, but the black magnetite's major purpose is to be black.
I don’t see the value of putting the gas vents on the left side of the carrier. Obviously one advantage is decreased port pop but the huge disadvantage would be pressurizing the upper with dirty gasses. Seems like it would cause the system to foul faster and increase gas coming through the charging handle into the shooters face.
There was some testing done on similar BCGs, and it doesn't increase fowling anymore than what using a suppressor would do. (which as you know gets things pretty dirty already).
@@ms542 I’m familiar with KAK testing their K-spec down venting carrier and have concluded that while the increase in fouling is insignificant for a magazine that is replaced every 30 rounds, it would be noticeable when trapped in an upper. Even so my main concern would be getting gassed out from the pressurization of the upper. I do like the gas key enhancements and the bolt geometry but I don’t feel the enhancements to be worth the downsides. I love griffin products but this one isn’t for me.
@BrassCatcher Shooting suppressed DI guns in general regardless of what bcg you use,adjustable gas block etc the pressure will be high. with that being said I own a kspec down vent and can’t tell the difference fouling and pressure wise compared to a traditional milspec side vent. The only difference I’ve been able to tell is less gas to my face.
Does the gas vent into the left of the upper receiver? Interesting variation on another vendor's downward vent. Might be a better option if it doesn't crud up your magazines as much.
It's not a variation, it is it's own unique idea and pending patent to allow gas to expand in a controlled atmosphere rather than making the fire control pocket and lower/upper receiver interface into the controlled atmosphere, where we are bleeding gas out of the gaps and pushing it into fire control and the chamber as well as porting part of it 3/16" from the ejection port where the ports originally were located. The idea proves its superiority by outperforming all the other parts on the market in terms of right ear sound reduction with a muzzle suppressor mounted.
We essentially already did because we tested the KAK BCG for them using the SPR/PSR5 used in this video, and we used that same G1 PSR5 in this video with the same rifle so that those results are comparable. The KAK BCG dropped right ear noise 7.5dB, and our carrier dropped right ear noise 10.5dB. being logarithmic, the outcome is more different than 3DB implies.
There’s only two things I would change on your bolt design, a longer stroke like on the surefire bolt carrier, though I recognize that this would be difficult to do with their patent on that at least, I think they have a patent and a flat wire recoil spring
We could have done another .050" (.300 instead of .250") but we limited it early because we don't really want to over-run the bolt catch by that much distance as for each increment of distance we attain greater acceleration and at a point, breaking bolt catches is a possibility. Also this way we put more distance between the rear of the key and the lower receiver than the original AR15 design.
So is it just meant to be quieter? Does it help reduce gas exposure to the shooter? Also, sell components in that ODG tone. That looks nice. You should also sell the HRT suppressors in ODG. If you sold guns and lowers in that FDE color you had on the SPR and the ODG you had on the 11.5 it'd be easy money.
Any option is an end user choice. 7.5dB with KAK is 562% change in sound on the 18" platform, and 10.5B with this carrier is 1122% on the same platform showing it is roughly twice as good at lowering right ear peak sound. That's a lot of change. Then there is the KAK pushes gas out the upper/lower receiver gaps in the vicinity of your face issue. This leaves the shooter sort of huffing gas (it smells like roasted carbon). The chamber and fire control pocket are fouled worse with KAK vis a vi pressurizing the whole interface, vs the pocket on the left side of the carrier. Then you go to remapped cam pin in our carrier and you are reducing bolt speed and lug stress, and stroking .250" further for smoother operation, and have an anti-tilt feature for reducing upper receiver wear and lug impact to the barrel extension. Ultimately a lot of choices come to "budgetary concern" and at that point KAK may make you happier through spending less for what you get.
@ not true. An a5 system would still greatly benefit from the features of this one. The increased stroke length provided by this combined with the consistent spring pressure of an a5 would make for an extremely light shooting rifle
@@bridgerclymore3438 The A5 is a buffer that makes normal stroke length in a Ar10 carbine length tube. The buffer provided with this system is .250" shorter than carbine for allowing the BCG to stroke .250" further than a normal BCG. So I'm not wrong the A5, wouldn't let the carrier stroke the correct length unless you custom cut down the polyurethane buffer end by .250" so it could stroke further.
@@Frostcrag64 I'm a little lost on the blowback to your face coming from ports at 90 degrees to the action, in front of the user's face. I understand how that was the original intent of the KAK down vent design. KAK's carrier pressurizes the space between the upper and lower and that bleeds out all the cracks. The gas pocket carrier vents forward in a pocket on the side of the upper comprised by the close operative association of the carrier to the upper, so it reduces the bleed out of the upper/lower gap between the interface. I guess I could see how this could be seen as reducing gas in the face, but I'm not sure the ports were the source of any gas in the face. We are extending dwell with the BCG complete as that has the longer cam pin track and that means the breech is unlocking later- the BCG speed and ejection patterns show more optimal ejection. The larger advantage is the major increase in AHAAH right ear dosing with the gas pocket carrier. It's like an AR muzzle suppressor gets a very large safety increase.
The buffer that comes with it is H2 weight and is .250" shorter than CAR to allow the extra cycling distance to occur. It is heavy enough for any reasonable application.
Keep in mind we have a lower cost more mil-spec version in the works for Q1 2025, so that's just a gas pocket anti-tilt carrier and milspec components, no carbon cutters no short key, modified cam pin track or all that other stuff.
I love what Griffith does and buy many of the products. I will buy this because I know what this is supposed to do for suppresed and shorter barreled ARs, but I must admit, the first video marketing leaves alot to be desired, and if I didnt know Griffin, it would turn me away.
I think we forgot call outs in a rush to post during the holidays to get this high cost item to market during a sale in an effort to make affording it accessible to more people. The testing was pretty extensive- we made an effort to really show people what this part does and to not oversell or misrepresent this item.
@@austingreen3888I think you guys do a fantastic job. I started by buying one of your lowers, then two suppressors, then your rear iron sights and it kept going from there. You guys make no nonsense stuff and refrain from gimmicky BS and I greatly appreciate that.
@@MrGible There are 3 versions here also- the full house carrier and buffer kit, the carrier only, and later in Q1, a mil-spec gas pocket BCG complete for a more typical BCG cost. That allows a customer to pick what matters to them.
We doubled right and left lug side radii, and tripled the size of the rear root radii. So FEA in CAD says the bolt is twice as strong as std, before accounting a stronger material.
lol, im sorry guys but it's impossible to read your data on a 2.5x5.5 inch phone. That's the extent of my tech devices, as in singular. You might want to master the spoken language to explain whatever you wanted to us. So far i get dual extractors.
@@KevinWood44to use our own ideas pre existing the KAK carrier test we did for free, and to almost double the dB reduction right ear, is not a great piece of supporting evidence for borrowing R&D. Our provisional patent was filed first.
The GA carrier is ejecting at 4 oclock with the cans in the video. It isn’t a necessary component to change ejection pattern to change sound but it is shifting dramatically in the video from the std control bcg used.
To get 10.5DB drop out of an 18” spr- in a market where 90% of cans are grouped in ~4dB, is like producing a miracle that pushes capability decades in front of development.
You can still use a standard milspec buffer and spring, but you just won't get to take advantage of the extended bolt stroke which will soften recoil slightly and improve reliability.
@@impulse1914 There is a carrier only, which uses mil-spec parts and can use the special buffer or not. The BCG group option can also use mil-spec parts, but is not economical for that purpose as it is sold complete.
We need another video explaining what each feature on the bcg does. Are you guys using a shorter gas key with closer staked nuts to take advantage of extended bolt stroke? Also why the bcg buffer end bulge? And what makes the buffer system better? Is the cam pin now on some kind of rotating ring? Why the sharp cut out in the bcg head face?
There is a podcast that we have to publish about this. The shirter key allows .250” more bcg travel with the special buffer for smoother cycling. The .980” anti tilt ring reduces upper wear and lug impact to extension lug recesses. The cut in the front of the carrier was designed to give case head separation overpressure a safer place to go than into the carrier to split the carrier and upper receiver. The cam pin track is .06” longer than standard and allows the system more time to depressurize prior to unlocking. The lugs have .03 radius at left and right and .04 at rear root corner for improved strength. The springs are 17-7 for greater temperature resistance to set.
@@austingreen3888 awesome reply. I really look forward learning more about this BCG and might seriously buy this. I've been looking for a BCG like the Surefire OBC or LWRC but they come with too many cons or features I don't want. Is this new BCG going to be coated in high lubricity coating like DLC or QPQ?
@@impulse1914 The finish on the BCG is black magnetite. It has a lubricity like DLC. We in testing ran 17-4 H900 carriers also and those worked totally fine with no abnormal wear patterns, but the black magnetite's major purpose is to be black.
Straight forward testing and significant enough results. Very cool!
Yes please!!
I don’t see the value of putting the gas vents on the left side of the carrier. Obviously one advantage is decreased port pop but the huge disadvantage would be pressurizing the upper with dirty gasses. Seems like it would cause the system to foul faster and increase gas coming through the charging handle into the shooters face.
There was some testing done on similar BCGs, and it doesn't increase fowling anymore than what using a suppressor would do. (which as you know gets things pretty dirty already).
exactly, that a very odd design
@@ms542 I’m familiar with KAK testing their K-spec down venting carrier and have concluded that while the increase in fouling is insignificant for a magazine that is replaced every 30 rounds, it would be noticeable when trapped in an upper. Even so my main concern would be getting gassed out from the pressurization of the upper. I do like the gas key enhancements and the bolt geometry but I don’t feel the enhancements to be worth the downsides. I love griffin products but this one isn’t for me.
@BrassCatcher Shooting suppressed DI guns in general regardless of what bcg you use,adjustable gas block etc the pressure will be high. with that being said I own a kspec down vent and can’t tell the difference fouling and pressure wise compared to a traditional milspec side vent. The only difference I’ve been able to tell is less gas to my face.
So that makes it impractical with a supressor.
Does the gas vent into the left of the upper receiver? Interesting variation on another vendor's downward vent. Might be a better option if it doesn't crud up your magazines as much.
It's not a variation, it is it's own unique idea and pending patent to allow gas to expand in a controlled atmosphere rather than making the fire control pocket and lower/upper receiver interface into the controlled atmosphere, where we are bleeding gas out of the gaps and pushing it into fire control and the chamber as well as porting part of it 3/16" from the ejection port where the ports originally were located. The idea proves its superiority by outperforming all the other parts on the market in terms of right ear sound reduction with a muzzle suppressor mounted.
Would you consider doing a head to head at ear sound comparison between this and the KAK BCG?
We essentially already did because we tested the KAK BCG for them using the SPR/PSR5 used in this video, and we used that same G1 PSR5 in this video with the same rifle so that those results are comparable. The KAK BCG dropped right ear noise 7.5dB, and our carrier dropped right ear noise 10.5dB. being logarithmic, the outcome is more different than 3DB implies.
Hope they offer an A5 buffer set
Not trying to be critical but why no chamfer on the sand cutting grooves? Seem really sharp. just curious.
How are they supposed to cut debris with a chamfer? If we put a chamfer on the surface they will act like a water ski and surf over the debris.
There’s only two things I would change on your bolt design, a longer stroke like on the surefire bolt carrier, though I recognize that this would be difficult to do with their patent on that at least, I think they have a patent and a flat wire recoil spring
We could have done another .050" (.300 instead of .250") but we limited it early because we don't really want to over-run the bolt catch by that much distance as for each increment of distance we attain greater acceleration and at a point, breaking bolt catches is a possibility. Also this way we put more distance between the rear of the key and the lower receiver than the original AR15 design.
Cost?
So is it just meant to be quieter? Does it help reduce gas exposure to the shooter? Also, sell components in that ODG tone. That looks nice. You should also sell the HRT suppressors in ODG.
If you sold guns and lowers in that FDE color you had on the SPR and the ODG you had on the 11.5 it'd be easy money.
I would guess that by venting into the upper it will feed more gas to your face.😂
@@JohnZ556it really is very similar to standard.
Do you offer A5 style buffers and springs with these as well most of my lowers have moved to A5 tubes
so like, why should i get this over the kak downward venting enhanced BCG
Any option is an end user choice. 7.5dB with KAK is 562% change in sound on the 18" platform, and 10.5B with this carrier is 1122% on the same platform showing it is roughly twice as good at lowering right ear peak sound. That's a lot of change. Then there is the KAK pushes gas out the upper/lower receiver gaps in the vicinity of your face issue. This leaves the shooter sort of huffing gas (it smells like roasted carbon). The chamber and fire control pocket are fouled worse with KAK vis a vi pressurizing the whole interface, vs the pocket on the left side of the carrier. Then you go to remapped cam pin in our carrier and you are reducing bolt speed and lug stress, and stroking .250" further for smoother operation, and have an anti-tilt feature for reducing upper receiver wear and lug impact to the barrel extension. Ultimately a lot of choices come to "budgetary concern" and at that point KAK may make you happier through spending less for what you get.
Please have an option for the a5 buffer system.
If you have an A5, the ideal bcg is a very close to mil spec gas pocket bcg that will be available in Q1 2025 for a more affordable price.
@ not true. An a5 system would still greatly benefit from the features of this one. The increased stroke length provided by this combined with the consistent spring pressure of an a5 would make for an extremely light shooting rifle
@@bridgerclymore3438 The A5 is a buffer that makes normal stroke length in a Ar10 carbine length tube. The buffer provided with this system is .250" shorter than carbine for allowing the BCG to stroke .250" further than a normal BCG. So I'm not wrong the A5, wouldn't let the carrier stroke the correct length unless you custom cut down the polyurethane buffer end by .250" so it could stroke further.
@@austingreen3888 will the gas pocket bcg also reduce blowback to your face like a K spec does?
@@Frostcrag64 I'm a little lost on the blowback to your face coming from ports at 90 degrees to the action, in front of the user's face. I understand how that was the original intent of the KAK down vent design. KAK's carrier pressurizes the space between the upper and lower and that bleeds out all the cracks. The gas pocket carrier vents forward in a pocket on the side of the upper comprised by the close operative association of the carrier to the upper, so it reduces the bleed out of the upper/lower gap between the interface. I guess I could see how this could be seen as reducing gas in the face, but I'm not sure the ports were the source of any gas in the face. We are extending dwell with the BCG complete as that has the longer cam pin track and that means the breech is unlocking later- the BCG speed and ejection patterns show more optimal ejection. The larger advantage is the major increase in AHAAH right ear dosing with the gas pocket carrier. It's like an AR muzzle suppressor gets a very large safety increase.
can you choose the buffer weights that come with it as the 11.5 might need a heavier buffer?
The buffer that comes with it is H2 weight and is .250" shorter than CAR to allow the extra cycling distance to occur. It is heavy enough for any reasonable application.
Come on bro, why are you doing this to my bank account
Keep in mind we have a lower cost more mil-spec version in the works for Q1 2025, so that's just a gas pocket anti-tilt carrier and milspec components, no carbon cutters no short key, modified cam pin track or all that other stuff.
I love what Griffith does and buy many of the products. I will buy this because I know what this is supposed to do for suppresed and shorter barreled ARs, but I must admit, the first video marketing leaves alot to be desired, and if I didnt know Griffin, it would turn me away.
I think we forgot call outs in a rush to post during the holidays to get this high cost item to market during a sale in an effort to make affording it accessible to more people. The testing was pretty extensive- we made an effort to really show people what this part does and to not oversell or misrepresent this item.
@@austingreen3888I think you guys do a fantastic job. I started by buying one of your lowers, then two suppressors, then your rear iron sights and it kept going from there. You guys make no nonsense stuff and refrain from gimmicky BS and I greatly appreciate that.
@@MrGible There are 3 versions here also- the full house carrier and buffer kit, the carrier only, and later in Q1, a mil-spec gas pocket BCG complete for a more typical BCG cost. That allows a customer to pick what matters to them.
Trying to eliminate port pop
It was pretty much eliminated. And this before any adjustment to gas pressure. So an adjustable gas block would further mitigate.
Why does noone fix the main weakness of the AR with its weak bolt lugs
KAC and Centurion Arms tapered lugs
We doubled right and left lug side radii, and tripled the size of the rear root radii. So FEA in CAD says the bolt is twice as strong as std, before accounting a stronger material.
I am interested. Very.
it's still a DI carrier
lol, im sorry guys but it's impossible to read your data on a 2.5x5.5 inch phone. That's the extent of my tech devices, as in singular. You might want to master the spoken language to explain whatever you wanted to us. So far i get dual extractors.
Seems like they "borrowed" a lot of KAK's R&D
In all fairness, KAC is the DIVA of AR's. Overpriced and arguably not much impressive.
@mpchappelle completely agreed, I am not a KAC fan.....but I meant KAK not KAC
@@KevinWood44to use our own ideas pre existing the KAK carrier test we did for free, and to almost double the dB reduction right ear, is not a great piece of supporting evidence for borrowing R&D. Our provisional patent was filed first.
@@KevinWood44 Not gonna lie, no idea KAK was a thing. Just looked it up. 🚬🗿
It's ejecting at 2:00. Better to vent more gas and make it a true suppressed carrier (won't cycle w/o can).
Ejection direction isn’t a direct indicator of gassing. Hope this helps
The GA carrier is ejecting at 4 oclock with the cans in the video. It isn’t a necessary component to change ejection pattern to change sound but it is shifting dramatically in the video from the std control bcg used.
8db drop? Still as loud as a jet plane.
dB rating isn’t linear, nor is it realistic to expect subsonic ratings from a supersonic cartridge. Hope this helps.
To get 10.5DB drop out of an 18” spr- in a market where 90% of cans are grouped in ~4dB, is like producing a miracle that pushes capability decades in front of development.
Goofy ahhh bcg
Infomerical. Just get a Mil spec.
Milspec is like getting a D in a test.
Lost me at proprietary
You can still use a standard milspec buffer and spring, but you just won't get to take advantage of the extended bolt stroke which will soften recoil slightly and improve reliability.
@@impulse1914 There is a carrier only, which uses mil-spec parts and can use the special buffer or not. The BCG group option can also use mil-spec parts, but is not economical for that purpose as it is sold complete.
What a dumb product and even dumber marketing
Love The cans they make but this is unnecessary
"Dumber marketing" or dumber marketee's? Appears that griffin is banking on the latter.