Now that I think about it, I supposed my magic system is a hybrid between hard and soft magic system. The entire magic system can be simplified to everyone has the magic, the people in the world already classified the magic system into different classes of magic, and everyone has the same weakness of bleeding(getting wounded will cause the user's magic to stop working due to a phenomenon called an overflow). Now that is for the hard magic system part. The soft magic part of this comes from how the magic system affects nature. Like creating disasters due to a high concentration of magic or how it affects the wildlife.
Sounds like it's a bit on the higher side but with a lower overall consistency, which is what gives you the freedom to have the nature portion breaking the mold. Sounds pretty fun over all
I'd say from the perspective of the magic users and Tolkien, LotR has a Hard Rational magic system. The magic in it is all tied to the first notion that each and every aspect of creation can be represented as a piece of a song, and those who were there when it happened (the Ainur like Gandalf or Sauron), people who learned from them directly (the calaquendi High Elves and the moriquendi of Doriath) and people who learned from the people who learned form them directly (Numenorians) know at least part of it. Gandalf can control fire and earth because he was created to help sing the portion of the Ainulindale that shaped the earth, then he got from Cirdan the ring in which Celebrimbor had poured every last tiny bit of power over fire the elves had ever learned from the Ainur... Its fascinating to me that the system feels soft irrational just because we never have a PoV character who has the tiniest inkling of how it works. The closest thing to it we get is Aragorn, and even that is illuminating in a lot of ways since he is the one who warns Frodo to be careful with what he says since he could drain the Ring's power to turn his words into binding curses or oaths, that's one of the biggest windows into how magic works we ever get. Because the stories focus so much on characters to whom the magic will always be beyond their understanding, the system reads as entirely irrational and soft, but if Tolkien was alive and we asked him "hey if Gandalf shot a ball of flames at Sauron, how would he defend himself?" I can 100% see him answering straight away something like "Sauron was part of the studies that went into crafting the body of the Balrogs, he would have a deeper understanding of fire as a weapon than even Gandalf so he could easily turn the spell back on him" and it would be entirely based on rules and facts of the story
Playing civilization 3 I wanted to push my boundaries and see how many cities I could memorize. I topped out at 22. I could remember what every one of those cities was building, how many troops they had, productivity, food resources, and where on the continent they were. I used the Greek method of memorization made for oration. I paid the who and what with each where and in my head it made it easier to block the information into packets to remember easier.
Much like we have an active vocabulary and a passive vocabulary, a magic system can have more commonly used elements even if you have introduced less used elements earlier. This makes it easier to make a non-obvious plot twist - it is not something the average reader will think of, but when it appears it will still be familiar.
Hopefully, we'll get a similar video for soft magic systems. I know that soft(er) magic systems are not in fashion right now, but it's a valid way of building magic in a book with its own advantages.
Hi! I've just started outlining my fantasy story and just found your channel. Loved this video! You do a great job breaking down everything. Looking forward to checking out more of your videos. Thank you!
Nice; I'll have to check this out. I'm in the process of brainstorming ideas for a Novel(I had a central conflict and some of the characters down but waited until those were moving before I went into the magic system) so I could use some good advice for making a good hard magic system. For me, my go two favorite Hard Magic systems are Alchemy from FMA and Nen from Hunter X Hunter. The former having equivalent exchange: "In order to obtain or create something, something of equal value must be lost or destroyed." This rule being prevalent throughout the series and exceptions, Philosopher Stone and the Gate of Truth, established early and maintained. Plus, the world of FMA is affected by Alchemy. It's my go to example of a magic system that was very well thought out and affects every part of the story. Nen from Hunter X Hunter is awesome. Togashi clearly took a lot of inspiration from RPGs when designing it, having basic applications, Ten, Hatsu, Zetsu, Ren etc. and having Hatsu having their each unique categories which in turn have separate capabilities and limitations. It's really neat and allows for battles to have a rule of cool to them but are grounded in that we understand what each character can't do. All in all, I do love a good hard magic system because it gives substance to spectacle.
10:29 The one piece is real! But on a serious note, I always get so hyped up about writing when I watch your videos. The way you talk with passion about fantasy and writing really motivates me. So, thank you!
Your channel has been a gem that I’ve come across at 3am lol I appreciate your ability to relay your information in a very understandable way! Much needed tips Ive needed for my own story, so thank you!
3:13 I would argue the ability to solve problems satisfactorily has more to do with the Rationality of the system than the Hardness of it. A solution is satisfying when the reader can potentially figure it out for themselves, and that's still very doable in a softer system; it may not have as clearly defined parameters, but if it's rational enough it will still have patterns that the reader can follow and extrapolate from ("If they could do that, they can probably do this").
Very true. Sanderson's definition of hard and soft actually runs on a diagonal across my quadrants. So it's both seeing it and understanding it that is important to solve plot problems. That's why I mostly think of Sanderson's first law as a law of foreshadowing rather than an actual law of magic systems
Loving the new set! I am so excited to finally covered Avatar the Last Airbender and I love you went through the same head cannon for Fire to Lightning as I did. In fact, I do the same but to distinguish the two in my magic system. Thank you again for breaking things down for hard magic systems. This has inspired me to not only keep my points down to 8 or 10 (I know, it was too much before the video lol) but also to have my main character go through learning the system as a vehicle to teach the audience. One big motivation for having the character learn the system is Edward Elric from Full Metal Alchemist. I would love to hear your breakdown of that system. Keep up the great work!
I'm not sure if my magic system has too much to remember. I remember it, but I'm the creator. The magic system is based on various European religions/mythologies, folklore about magic, and alchemy. I'm creating the system for a shared universe of superheroes (and whatever other stories my friend and I decided to write within this world). I want to avoid it becoming overpowered without losing any whimsy or its effectiveness in a fight. The magic system will be used in multiple stories, including a fantasy story that will go into more depth with how it works so, maybe I can let the system appear softer than it actually is in these other stories; just present enough information. The magic system uses spells and rituals to cast magic; because of this, I want it to have a language and alphabet that is simple enough where readers can remember what a symbol/word means and discern what a spell will do based on groups of symbols and words. The alphabet will be heavily based on Norse runes which have assigned sounds but also represent words/concepts. Since my system also has some elemental magic within (the casters draw power from these elements) there could be a symbol that has a sound like "A" but also means fire. Using this symbol creates fire. This symbol plus another symbol could result in a spell similar to D&D's Fireball. Full words would be used for more complicated incantations. The system also has magical fulcrums such as wands, staffs, and pendants which are used to focus magic and lower the amount of energy it costs. These items aren't necessary to cast magic though; they are just aid items. As I mentioned, (I might have also left a comment about it before) my magic system has elements, but I haven't decided on the exact number. Spells are categorized by an element. Originally, I had the four classic elements but then had spells that didn't fit under one of them, so I added a few more. Sympathetic magic and the idea of equivalent exchange also factors into the system. I haven't worked out potions or enchanting yet, but it exists. Gods can also be patroned for more powerful magic (success varies when dealing with gods). There are also leylines. Looking at it all typed out in one spot, maybe it's not too much. Especially considering a number of these ideas (spells, runes, leylines, potions, wands) a lot of people are already familiar with. Saying that, I realized I forgot to mention familiars. There are also a few small systems that I've termed "folk magic". There's probably something I'm missing.
It's all about inspecting the learning curve. A steep learning curve is fine as long as you're okay with the results (more readers being confused and uncertain of how it actually works). Steven Erikson takes this approach and his magic system and sreies are supposed to be incredible. It's all about crafting the system to deliver the experience you want OR crafting it the way you want and being okay with the experience it delivers. I think it's a bit easier with superheroes because we can usually compartmentalize a bit more by looking at one hero at a time instead of the entire structure all at once.
Interesting. I'm curious as to how you'd define a layered magic system. As in, a magic system in which there is 1 system that allows another system to work on top of it, a little like how computer programing works. Programs are made from scripts, scripts are written in languages, languages are made from assembler code, and assembler code is made from binary code. (There are a few exceptions with languages made from a combination of assembler code and binary code.) In my system, I have what would be my equivalent of the binary code in this instance in the form of 3 fundamental forms of energy. These 3 forms of energy break down into matter, thought, and life/animation. The 3 forms of energy are, of course, called by many names. Then, this is a multiverse setting, and the magic systems of each universe are built on top of these rules. The energy of thought responds to the thoughts of the sentient creatures of the world. This creates a system that the energy of life/animation (often named something like "mana") follows in order to have an effect on the energy of matter. When this energy of life interacts with the energy of matter, given form by the energy of thought, then that creates magic. The exact rules and ways by which this interaction happens in each world is very different for every world in this setting, since the magic is highly dependent on how the sentient creatures of that world shape the thought energy into a system. I tend to tell my readers in great detail how the magic system of the current world works, but not so much about the underlying system I just described. That said, the underlying system is actually incredibly simple, often far more simple than the systems that are built on top of it. (Although the little sprinkles of information tend to make it sound like it's more complicated than it really is.) I'm curious as to where this all rates in the hard-soft and rational-irrational scale you're talking about, especially how the layering of the systems would be handled with your rating system.
"a magic system in which there is 1 system that allows another system to work on top of it, a little like how computer programing works" That is exactly it!
First, even after like three hours. Btw I'm trying to write a Superhero story with a Hard magic system based on either Conducting or Storing energy. But I made a character that does something, odd, with it. Stealing the emotional attachments people have with objects, Now I'm having trouble integrating this with the rest of my system. Any ideas on how to help?
How about having the human mind partitioned between the purely chemical for logic and some deeper quantum "thing" for the emotional that your character can manipulate in some way. Have the emotion "thing" be part of the same mathematical law of the universe as the manipulation of energy.
@@mageprometheus I was already thinking about psi-tech as a basis, but okay. The separation between physical and mental energies may actually be helpful. Still not sure how it'll fit in, but I guess it will come with the rest of the story. Part of the Power creep I think.
That's what happens when I post it randomly late in the day :P I like Mage Promtheus' comments on this. I'd probably look at defining some kind of mental and emotional energies. OR, you can keep this idea in the toolbox for another magic system. Not all pieces will fit together. There's nothing wrong with cutting parts out to use later in other stories
@@themagicengineer5314 thanks for the helpful suggestions. I guess I was overthinking the whole thing. Yes I did separate Emotional and Physical energies from each other. Opened a lot of doors in the system.
My friend and I have been working on a shared superhero universe since HS. It's fun but a lot of work. I'm taking lead on the European magic system, while he's working on a magic system for Asia. With my system, I want it to be combative and visually cool to see while also creating a feeling of whimsy. I don't have any suggestions for you to integrate the emotional stealing idea, I just thought it was cool to see someone else working on a magic system for a superhero story. I put a lot of thought into mine because I don't want it to be like Marvel and DC where magic can do whatever the writer wants.
This is for fiction. You can find a more complete explanation here: th-cam.com/video/hX-2Bg7n5wQ/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUedGhlbWFnaWNlbmdpbmVlciB3aGF0IGlzIG1hZ2lj
I guess my magic system isn't as hard as I thought it would be, but probably somewhere inbetween with a certain tendency to "rational" instead. And one issue I see is: Is my magic system inconsistent with its rationality level? My magic system uses souls as a special type of matter that is everywhere in low density, but coalesces inside of sentient beings (attracted by the brain probably as an evolutionary advantage) and is essentially what makes creatures self-aware. Creatures with barely any soul can exist, but are essentially more like zombies. When the density of soul matter reaches a critical point (which is almost always reached within sentients) it turns into a "true soul" and develops a membrane around itself through which it can retain form and stay inside a body without leaking out, forming a consciousness. Now people who have built a strong connection with their soul and are fully aware of its existence can learn one of three things: 1. Mysticism - school of energy: The soul is a very dense form of energy and thus can be transformed into other forms, namely kinetic and thermal energy. Using this, Mysticism can teach the user to burn or forcefully expell a part of their soul in order to deal immense damage to their surrounding (or to kick open doors with style). This, however, requires them to artificially replenish their lost soul matter by tapping into other people's soul and tearing it out of them (usually by stabbing someone and killing them in the process). 2. Witchcraft - school of thought: The soul and brain are heavily intertwined, and thus being able to influence someone's soul can also influence someone's brain. This means that you can detect someone else's thoughts, command their body or cause them to experience unearthly pain. Users of Witchcraft usually replenish their soul by tapping into the outside world and collecting the souls of dead people, since absorbing a tortured soul will torture you as well. 3. Polymorphism - school of blood: This is where I lost the high level of "rationality" essentially. This school uses the connection of humanoid body and soul to link these together so thoroughly that you can essentially learn to alter your own body by commanding it with your soul. This leads to grotesque abominations, but also to face shifters, bone armor, spontaneous growth of claws, self-healing and a certain control of your own metabolism. All these transformations cost blood, which can transform into any other organic substance essentially, meaning that Polymorphs are often seen like vampires who prey on their victims to consume their blood to replenish their own lack thereof. So I guess the first two schools make for a more rational approach to magic, whereas the latter just assumes you can transform blood into whatever else inside your body, which is a more irrational approach to magic. Do you think this inconsistency is problematic, or do you think it links together well enough so this issue can be ignored? Also, sorry if my English is bad or the post is too long, I just wanted to get this off my chest, so no worries if you don't find time to reply 😊
I don't think that's a problem at all. In fact, if you watch any of my videos where I talk about the Magic-System Blueprint, one of the variables is consistency, which refers to exactly this kind of situation. It's okay to have pieces of the system that flex and vary from the others as long as you are consistent with what you've SHOWN. So don't show the blood magic making bone armor and then later say that blood magic can't create bone armor. THAT'S the kind of inconsistency you want to watch for. Also, I really like your rationality of the soul. Very fun! If you're really worried about the blood magic not being rational enough, you could consider adding more rules to that school specifically. Like having someone gradually build their suit of bone armor over time to avoid becoming anemic and fainting. If you want, you could build artificial structures about what kinds of transformations are easy and which are difficult. This doesn't have to plug into the larger rationality, but having that small set of patterns can help it FEEL like it's more in line with the rest. Make sense?
@@themagicengineer5314 Thank you very much for your answer! It's true that I haven't considered the difference yet between what I know (which might seem inconsistent to me) and what I show (which will definitely look better if I play with the strengths I have). And the usage of patterns inside each magic school sounds very clever and better than trying to force all magic schools to have only one simple axiom that they are based on. It's kind of like fleshing out a part of the world to make the reader feel like every location is as fleshed out - pardon the pun ;-) So, again, thank you very much for your detailled reply!
Not a problem@@kasane1337 ! Glad it was helpful and glad you enjoyed the video. Don't hesitate to drop feedback, content suggestions, and questions into the comments. And you can always reach me directly through crrowenson.com if you're struggling with something and want to chat more
"You can transform blood into any other substance within yourself" is not irrational and doesn't require your reader to assume anything. That's a real thing: blood contains stem cells. For extra science points, menstrual blood should be more effective than regular.
An EXCELLENT question! That all comes down to perspective, which I talk about more with the Magic-System Blueprint. From your perspective as the creator, you know the rules so you experience it as a hard magic system. If you never explain it in the story, it remains mostly unknown to your readers and therefore they experience a soft system. Make sense?
something that is just assumed in game magic systems but almost never happens in story books magic is when magic spells simply fail. most of the time in stories magic seems to be as reliable as gravity, if you know the words for the spell for fire ball you get a fire ball 100% of the time, yet in table top games not only can you fail but if you roll a 1 you can fail spectacularly this could be a 3rd dimension dependability in magic. I like to think in LOTR when Gandalf says "fly you fools" he was casting a spell that failed but with how weak LOTR magic is he could have been successful and "falling with style" that could be a 4th dimension how weak or strong magic is. aside from the addictive level boosting ring that is too powerful that world the main combat spell seems to be on par with a powerful flashlight LOTR magic is sooo weak.
@@themagicengineer5314 and the big bad finding a way to seemingly violate a basic rule of magic is always a great way to make them seem scary and all powerful.
How does knowing the 4 elements of Avatar's system make it hard? Cant a magic system be hard without telling the viewer the entire list? Also, you mentioned one way in which they were not consistent in applying the hard magic system, and called it irrational. Does irrational just mean "tries to be hard but is inconsistent with it?". All pretty confusing.
Irrational means what you see and how things work in one place can't be used to predict what you could see in another. The rationality behind the first portion doesn't extend to the second. By breaking the previously established rational, the system shifts to the left toward the irrational side of things. "Can't a magic system be hard without telling the viewer the entire list." Not with my definition of it, no. To be a hard magic system, you need to show more of the list than you keep hidden. There's a sliding scale for how much you show, but that's the basic idea. Have you watched the video on the 4 types of magic systems? That might help clarify things a bit better
Now that I think about it, I supposed my magic system is a hybrid between hard and soft magic system. The entire magic system can be simplified to everyone has the magic, the people in the world already classified the magic system into different classes of magic, and everyone has the same weakness of bleeding(getting wounded will cause the user's magic to stop working due to a phenomenon called an overflow). Now that is for the hard magic system part. The soft magic part of this comes from how the magic system affects nature. Like creating disasters due to a high concentration of magic or how it affects the wildlife.
Sounds like it's a bit on the higher side but with a lower overall consistency, which is what gives you the freedom to have the nature portion breaking the mold. Sounds pretty fun over all
I'd say from the perspective of the magic users and Tolkien, LotR has a Hard Rational magic system. The magic in it is all tied to the first notion that each and every aspect of creation can be represented as a piece of a song, and those who were there when it happened (the Ainur like Gandalf or Sauron), people who learned from them directly (the calaquendi High Elves and the moriquendi of Doriath) and people who learned from the people who learned form them directly (Numenorians) know at least part of it.
Gandalf can control fire and earth because he was created to help sing the portion of the Ainulindale that shaped the earth, then he got from Cirdan the ring in which Celebrimbor had poured every last tiny bit of power over fire the elves had ever learned from the Ainur... Its fascinating to me that the system feels soft irrational just because we never have a PoV character who has the tiniest inkling of how it works. The closest thing to it we get is Aragorn, and even that is illuminating in a lot of ways since he is the one who warns Frodo to be careful with what he says since he could drain the Ring's power to turn his words into binding curses or oaths, that's one of the biggest windows into how magic works we ever get.
Because the stories focus so much on characters to whom the magic will always be beyond their understanding, the system reads as entirely irrational and soft, but if Tolkien was alive and we asked him "hey if Gandalf shot a ball of flames at Sauron, how would he defend himself?" I can 100% see him answering straight away something like "Sauron was part of the studies that went into crafting the body of the Balrogs, he would have a deeper understanding of fire as a weapon than even Gandalf so he could easily turn the spell back on him" and it would be entirely based on rules and facts of the story
I agree 100%! It's all about the perspective you're analyzing the system from
Playing civilization 3 I wanted to push my boundaries and see how many cities I could memorize. I topped out at 22. I could remember what every one of those cities was building, how many troops they had, productivity, food resources, and where on the continent they were. I used the Greek method of memorization made for oration. I paid the who and what with each where and in my head it made it easier to block the information into packets to remember easier.
This was an excellent addition to Brandon's lecture.
Thank you so much. I appreciate that :)
Much like we have an active vocabulary and a passive vocabulary, a magic system can have more commonly used elements even if you have introduced less used elements earlier. This makes it easier to make a non-obvious plot twist - it is not something the average reader will think of, but when it appears it will still be familiar.
Excellent point!
Hopefully, we'll get a similar video for soft magic systems.
I know that soft(er) magic systems are not in fashion right now, but it's a valid way of building magic in a book with its own advantages.
Totally agree and it is absolutely in the queue ;)
Hi! I've just started outlining my fantasy story and just found your channel. Loved this video! You do a great job breaking down everything. Looking forward to checking out more of your videos. Thank you!
Thanks for the kind words and I hope you find the other videos helpful
Nice; I'll have to check this out. I'm in the process of brainstorming ideas for a Novel(I had a central conflict and some of the characters down but waited until those were moving before I went into the magic system) so I could use some good advice for making a good hard magic system. For me, my go two favorite Hard Magic systems are Alchemy from FMA and Nen from Hunter X Hunter. The former having equivalent exchange: "In order to obtain or create something, something of equal value must be lost or destroyed." This rule being prevalent throughout the series and exceptions, Philosopher Stone and the Gate of Truth, established early and maintained.
Plus, the world of FMA is affected by Alchemy. It's my go to example of a magic system that was very well thought out and affects every part of the story. Nen from Hunter X Hunter is awesome. Togashi clearly took a lot of inspiration from RPGs when designing it, having basic applications, Ten, Hatsu, Zetsu, Ren etc. and having Hatsu having their each unique categories which in turn have separate capabilities and limitations. It's really neat and allows for battles to have a rule of cool to them but are grounded in that we understand what each character can't do.
All in all, I do love a good hard magic system because it gives substance to spectacle.
10:29 The one piece is real!
But on a serious note, I always get so hyped up about writing when I watch your videos. The way you talk with passion about fantasy and writing really motivates me. So, thank you!
Magic to be UNDERSTOOD
Fantastic video!! I’m working on a hard Magic system right now and this was really really helpful!
So glad to hear it!
Your channel has been a gem that I’ve come across at 3am lol I appreciate your ability to relay your information in a very understandable way! Much needed tips Ive needed for my own story, so thank you!
3:13 I would argue the ability to solve problems satisfactorily has more to do with the Rationality of the system than the Hardness of it. A solution is satisfying when the reader can potentially figure it out for themselves, and that's still very doable in a softer system; it may not have as clearly defined parameters, but if it's rational enough it will still have patterns that the reader can follow and extrapolate from ("If they could do that, they can probably do this").
Very true. Sanderson's definition of hard and soft actually runs on a diagonal across my quadrants. So it's both seeing it and understanding it that is important to solve plot problems. That's why I mostly think of Sanderson's first law as a law of foreshadowing rather than an actual law of magic systems
I got so excited when I saw you posted. Good stuff!
Thanks man! I don't get to make as many videos as I want, but I do my best to get something out every four-ish weeks
Loving the new set! I am so excited to finally covered Avatar the Last Airbender and I love you went through the same head cannon for Fire to Lightning as I did. In fact, I do the same but to distinguish the two in my magic system.
Thank you again for breaking things down for hard magic systems. This has inspired me to not only keep my points down to 8 or 10 (I know, it was too much before the video lol) but also to have my main character go through learning the system as a vehicle to teach the audience.
One big motivation for having the character learn the system is Edward Elric from Full Metal Alchemist. I would love to hear your breakdown of that system. Keep up the great work!
Thanks man! Always great hearing from you. I hope things are going well in your corner of the world.
Thanks very much for your help
Great video
I'm not sure if my magic system has too much to remember. I remember it, but I'm the creator. The magic system is based on various European religions/mythologies, folklore about magic, and alchemy. I'm creating the system for a shared universe of superheroes (and whatever other stories my friend and I decided to write within this world). I want to avoid it becoming overpowered without losing any whimsy or its effectiveness in a fight. The magic system will be used in multiple stories, including a fantasy story that will go into more depth with how it works so, maybe I can let the system appear softer than it actually is in these other stories; just present enough information.
The magic system uses spells and rituals to cast magic; because of this, I want it to have a language and alphabet that is simple enough where readers can remember what a symbol/word means and discern what a spell will do based on groups of symbols and words. The alphabet will be heavily based on Norse runes which have assigned sounds but also represent words/concepts. Since my system also has some elemental magic within (the casters draw power from these elements) there could be a symbol that has a sound like "A" but also means fire. Using this symbol creates fire. This symbol plus another symbol could result in a spell similar to D&D's Fireball. Full words would be used for more complicated incantations.
The system also has magical fulcrums such as wands, staffs, and pendants which are used to focus magic and lower the amount of energy it costs. These items aren't necessary to cast magic though; they are just aid items. As I mentioned, (I might have also left a comment about it before) my magic system has elements, but I haven't decided on the exact number. Spells are categorized by an element. Originally, I had the four classic elements but then had spells that didn't fit under one of them, so I added a few more. Sympathetic magic and the idea of equivalent exchange also factors into the system. I haven't worked out potions or enchanting yet, but it exists. Gods can also be patroned for more powerful magic (success varies when dealing with gods). There are also leylines.
Looking at it all typed out in one spot, maybe it's not too much. Especially considering a number of these ideas (spells, runes, leylines, potions, wands) a lot of people are already familiar with. Saying that, I realized I forgot to mention familiars. There are also a few small systems that I've termed "folk magic". There's probably something I'm missing.
It's all about inspecting the learning curve. A steep learning curve is fine as long as you're okay with the results (more readers being confused and uncertain of how it actually works). Steven Erikson takes this approach and his magic system and sreies are supposed to be incredible.
It's all about crafting the system to deliver the experience you want OR crafting it the way you want and being okay with the experience it delivers.
I think it's a bit easier with superheroes because we can usually compartmentalize a bit more by looking at one hero at a time instead of the entire structure all at once.
Trying to keep the effects both specific and rational is a challenge for me :,)
I get you... trust me :)
Interesting. I'm curious as to how you'd define a layered magic system. As in, a magic system in which there is 1 system that allows another system to work on top of it, a little like how computer programing works. Programs are made from scripts, scripts are written in languages, languages are made from assembler code, and assembler code is made from binary code. (There are a few exceptions with languages made from a combination of assembler code and binary code.)
In my system, I have what would be my equivalent of the binary code in this instance in the form of 3 fundamental forms of energy. These 3 forms of energy break down into matter, thought, and life/animation. The 3 forms of energy are, of course, called by many names.
Then, this is a multiverse setting, and the magic systems of each universe are built on top of these rules. The energy of thought responds to the thoughts of the sentient creatures of the world. This creates a system that the energy of life/animation (often named something like "mana") follows in order to have an effect on the energy of matter. When this energy of life interacts with the energy of matter, given form by the energy of thought, then that creates magic.
The exact rules and ways by which this interaction happens in each world is very different for every world in this setting, since the magic is highly dependent on how the sentient creatures of that world shape the thought energy into a system.
I tend to tell my readers in great detail how the magic system of the current world works, but not so much about the underlying system I just described. That said, the underlying system is actually incredibly simple, often far more simple than the systems that are built on top of it. (Although the little sprinkles of information tend to make it sound like it's more complicated than it really is.) I'm curious as to where this all rates in the hard-soft and rational-irrational scale you're talking about, especially how the layering of the systems would be handled with your rating system.
"a magic system in which there is 1 system that allows another system to work on top of it, a little like how computer programing works"
That is exactly it!
First, even after like three hours.
Btw I'm trying to write a Superhero story with a Hard magic system based on either Conducting or Storing energy. But I made a character that does something, odd, with it. Stealing the emotional attachments people have with objects, Now I'm having trouble integrating this with the rest of my system. Any ideas on how to help?
How about having the human mind partitioned between the purely chemical for logic and some deeper quantum "thing" for the emotional that your character can manipulate in some way. Have the emotion "thing" be part of the same mathematical law of the universe as the manipulation of energy.
@@mageprometheus I was already thinking about psi-tech as a basis, but okay.
The separation between physical and mental energies may actually be helpful. Still not sure how it'll fit in, but I guess it will come with the rest of the story. Part of the Power creep I think.
That's what happens when I post it randomly late in the day :P
I like Mage Promtheus' comments on this. I'd probably look at defining some kind of mental and emotional energies. OR, you can keep this idea in the toolbox for another magic system. Not all pieces will fit together. There's nothing wrong with cutting parts out to use later in other stories
@@themagicengineer5314 thanks for the helpful suggestions. I guess I was overthinking the whole thing. Yes I did separate Emotional and Physical energies from each other. Opened a lot of doors in the system.
My friend and I have been working on a shared superhero universe since HS. It's fun but a lot of work. I'm taking lead on the European magic system, while he's working on a magic system for Asia. With my system, I want it to be combative and visually cool to see while also creating a feeling of whimsy.
I don't have any suggestions for you to integrate the emotional stealing idea, I just thought it was cool to see someone else working on a magic system for a superhero story. I put a lot of thought into mine because I don't want it to be like Marvel and DC where magic can do whatever the writer wants.
Is this about using "witchcraft" magic or about writing stories? What does the word "magic" mean in this context?
This is for fiction. You can find a more complete explanation here:
th-cam.com/video/hX-2Bg7n5wQ/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUedGhlbWFnaWNlbmdpbmVlciB3aGF0IGlzIG1hZ2lj
I guess my magic system isn't as hard as I thought it would be, but probably somewhere inbetween with a certain tendency to "rational" instead. And one issue I see is: Is my magic system inconsistent with its rationality level?
My magic system uses souls as a special type of matter that is everywhere in low density, but coalesces inside of sentient beings (attracted by the brain probably as an evolutionary advantage) and is essentially what makes creatures self-aware. Creatures with barely any soul can exist, but are essentially more like zombies.
When the density of soul matter reaches a critical point (which is almost always reached within sentients) it turns into a "true soul" and develops a membrane around itself through which it can retain form and stay inside a body without leaking out, forming a consciousness.
Now people who have built a strong connection with their soul and are fully aware of its existence can learn one of three things:
1. Mysticism - school of energy: The soul is a very dense form of energy and thus can be transformed into other forms, namely kinetic and thermal energy. Using this, Mysticism can teach the user to burn or forcefully expell a part of their soul in order to deal immense damage to their surrounding (or to kick open doors with style). This, however, requires them to artificially replenish their lost soul matter by tapping into other people's soul and tearing it out of them (usually by stabbing someone and killing them in the process).
2. Witchcraft - school of thought: The soul and brain are heavily intertwined, and thus being able to influence someone's soul can also influence someone's brain. This means that you can detect someone else's thoughts, command their body or cause them to experience unearthly pain. Users of Witchcraft usually replenish their soul by tapping into the outside world and collecting the souls of dead people, since absorbing a tortured soul will torture you as well.
3. Polymorphism - school of blood: This is where I lost the high level of "rationality" essentially. This school uses the connection of humanoid body and soul to link these together so thoroughly that you can essentially learn to alter your own body by commanding it with your soul. This leads to grotesque abominations, but also to face shifters, bone armor, spontaneous growth of claws, self-healing and a certain control of your own metabolism. All these transformations cost blood, which can transform into any other organic substance essentially, meaning that Polymorphs are often seen like vampires who prey on their victims to consume their blood to replenish their own lack thereof.
So I guess the first two schools make for a more rational approach to magic, whereas the latter just assumes you can transform blood into whatever else inside your body, which is a more irrational approach to magic. Do you think this inconsistency is problematic, or do you think it links together well enough so this issue can be ignored?
Also, sorry if my English is bad or the post is too long, I just wanted to get this off my chest, so no worries if you don't find time to reply 😊
I don't think that's a problem at all. In fact, if you watch any of my videos where I talk about the Magic-System Blueprint, one of the variables is consistency, which refers to exactly this kind of situation. It's okay to have pieces of the system that flex and vary from the others as long as you are consistent with what you've SHOWN. So don't show the blood magic making bone armor and then later say that blood magic can't create bone armor. THAT'S the kind of inconsistency you want to watch for.
Also, I really like your rationality of the soul. Very fun! If you're really worried about the blood magic not being rational enough, you could consider adding more rules to that school specifically. Like having someone gradually build their suit of bone armor over time to avoid becoming anemic and fainting. If you want, you could build artificial structures about what kinds of transformations are easy and which are difficult. This doesn't have to plug into the larger rationality, but having that small set of patterns can help it FEEL like it's more in line with the rest. Make sense?
@@themagicengineer5314 Thank you very much for your answer! It's true that I haven't considered the difference yet between what I know (which might seem inconsistent to me) and what I show (which will definitely look better if I play with the strengths I have). And the usage of patterns inside each magic school sounds very clever and better than trying to force all magic schools to have only one simple axiom that they are based on. It's kind of like fleshing out a part of the world to make the reader feel like every location is as fleshed out - pardon the pun ;-)
So, again, thank you very much for your detailled reply!
Not a problem@@kasane1337 ! Glad it was helpful and glad you enjoyed the video. Don't hesitate to drop feedback, content suggestions, and questions into the comments. And you can always reach me directly through crrowenson.com if you're struggling with something and want to chat more
"You can transform blood into any other substance within yourself" is not irrational and doesn't require your reader to assume anything. That's a real thing: blood contains stem cells. For extra science points, menstrual blood should be more effective than regular.
Is it bad for a magic system to have 7 pros and 11 cons?
How do you mean? Do you mean Hard Magic in general or are you thinking of a specific system?
Something I still don't quite understand: if a magic system has firm rules, but they're not explained in story, would that be more hard or soft?
An EXCELLENT question!
That all comes down to perspective, which I talk about more with the Magic-System Blueprint. From your perspective as the creator, you know the rules so you experience it as a hard magic system. If you never explain it in the story, it remains mostly unknown to your readers and therefore they experience a soft system.
Make sense?
@@themagicengineer5314 It makes perfect sense. Thank you very much.
something that is just assumed in game magic systems but almost never happens in story books magic is when magic spells simply fail. most of the time in stories magic seems to be as reliable as gravity, if you know the words for the spell for fire ball you get a fire ball 100% of the time, yet in table top games not only can you fail but if you roll a 1 you can fail spectacularly this could be a 3rd dimension dependability in magic. I like to think in LOTR when Gandalf says "fly you fools" he was casting a spell that failed but with how weak LOTR magic is he could have been successful and "falling with style" that could be a 4th dimension how weak or strong magic is. aside from the addictive level boosting ring that is too powerful that world the main combat spell seems to be on par with a powerful flashlight LOTR magic is sooo weak.
But how did the villain change living flesh... didn't, but as it turns out bringing dead flesh to life is possible.
Oooo. That's a fun way to work around the limitation
@@themagicengineer5314 and the big bad finding a way to seemingly violate a basic rule of magic is always a great way to make them seem scary and all powerful.
How does knowing the 4 elements of Avatar's system make it hard? Cant a magic system be hard without telling the viewer the entire list? Also, you mentioned one way in which they were not consistent in applying the hard magic system, and called it irrational. Does irrational just mean "tries to be hard but is inconsistent with it?". All pretty confusing.
Irrational means what you see and how things work in one place can't be used to predict what you could see in another. The rationality behind the first portion doesn't extend to the second. By breaking the previously established rational, the system shifts to the left toward the irrational side of things.
"Can't a magic system be hard without telling the viewer the entire list." Not with my definition of it, no. To be a hard magic system, you need to show more of the list than you keep hidden. There's a sliding scale for how much you show, but that's the basic idea.
Have you watched the video on the 4 types of magic systems? That might help clarify things a bit better
Sir my elemental magic system has 30 elements in three independent sub systems.
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lol. I'm not hearing a problem! How are you feeling about it overall? Do you feel it's grown too complex, or do you like it where it's at?