Another X3/TTS user here. Excellent job on the TTS holders and the video! One thing I noticed is that the Tormach tools have a relief on the spindle side of the 3/4" shaft, to ensure the tool rests only on the spindle face and not on the collet or any other protrusions. I suspect it's probably fine as-is for most applications but it seems an easy detail to consider adding. Kudos again!
Nice pair of videos. I've always thought it was a neat concept to use the mill as a vertical lathe. On those toolholders, you may notice that there is a relief on the shank side of the tool holder body on the genuine Tormach holders. This helps with pressure and repeatability. They detail this on their website. Go to "products"-"tormach tooling system"- "about tts" and then look for the "tts animation" link on the left side of the page.
Your point is valid. I'm satisfied with the tram, but the chuck holder was just thrown together with no specific measures done to assure the holder was square to the table. I use the holders I made with it daily with no problems, but my work is to 'relaxed' precision and wouldn't stand up to commercial standards. I do this for fun.
Great videos. Most people that come on TH-cam to criticize have done nothing to contribute on here. I will try this for roughers and such. Thanks for the vids.
If you want to be EXACTLY dead center.. use a dialgauge... put the magnetic base on the spindel and put the dial indicator on the drillrod in the chuck.. rotate spindle by hand and adjust X and Y until the hand doesn't move anymore.. this gives you far more accuracy..
How do you mount your drill chuck perfectly vertical? I haven't had much luck on super precision with the probe method of centering. How accurate are you getting? I'm lucky to have 0.003" repeatability.
Just answered my own question I think - I have found a high res photo of the TTS R8 collet and it looks to be relieved on the inside edge slightly. I had wondered if they just ground it completely flat on the face hence the question. Thanks again for this video series!
Excellent sir, well done!! ;) Funny at just how many "know-it-all's" there are on YT yet when you go to their channel you see nothing but them leaving negative remarks on everyone elses. Great video too, thank you.
I could see that the reamer deflected slightly when it went into the hole. Did that mess up the concentricity of the tool holder? Great video's though, thanks for posting them
There is a small radius at the junction of the shank, but there are several things that make it a non-issue. On true TTS toolholders, there is a relief on the face that makes certain that the tool makes contact with the spindle on the perimeter. Also, the collet is ground flat, and on my mill at least, it rides just slightly inside the spindle face, allowing for a bit of clearance to any radius on the shank. As you say, you could clearance the face with another operation. Thanks
This is fantastic video series - thanks for sharing. A question: after you turn the shoulder of the holder (shank side), does the lathe tool leave a very small radius in the corner, possibly effecting the seating against the flat R8 / MT3 TTS collet. Does this effect anything, and have you thought about a slight undercut in this corner, perhaps using a parting blade or another turning tool to add some negative clearance to the shoulder? Hope that makes sense - curious whether its necessary.
NICE - thanks! Nice production and nice topic coverage. Looks like you have a lot less backlash on your table than I do (I just have ACME threads, not ballscrews.)
@chuckmerja I am EXTREMELY happy with my CNC conversion. It was a kit from CNCFusion. I used the Deluxe kit which is advertised as 0 backlash, and as far as I am concerned that is what I am getting. I'm sure if I worked at it, I could find some little backlash, but why work? I have heard that replacing the leadscrew nuts with a delrin block can help with backlash on Acme on the X2 (don't know about the X3). If you ever decide to upgrade I recommend CNCFusion
Thanks for posting these videos. I am currently trying to build a similair setup. I like the trick to center the drill. How did you mount the drill chuck to sit vertically and straight on the bed? Thanks
(last post continued, ran out of space) A boring operation instead would bring the hole back on axis. As they are bored "in place" they would likely even be more accurate than the "factory" holders if you put an index mark on them and always installed them the same way relative to the collet and spindle.
Dave, I came back after several months for another installation of your videos (and to watch this video again for the 5th time!), but it appears that you have been somewhat lax in developing more high quality instructional videos for our consumption! ;) Looking forward to seeing some in the future!
That's something I did not know. I have always cleared chips from a reamer just as I would with a drill; but watching pros like Tom Lipton, Adam Booth, etc I notice they never seem to retract a reamer. I assume it wears the cutting edges? (I did know never to run a reamer in reverse). Thanks for the info, I appreciate learning from people who know.
@saunixcomp Thanks - I enjoy watching your videos as well. I'll try switching around the order of operation the next holder I make, and see if it makes it any better. I'm happy with the results I've gotten so far; these toolholders are mostly for my non-critical tools, so I haven't tried to get ultimate precision. I know the methods of dialing in with a DTI when I have to get it exactly right, but for hobby work I seldom need to.
@titchener Thank you for the suggestion. I hadn't tried boring because most of my tool holes so far have been small (.375 or less) and I don't have a boring tool that small. I agree it would be far more accurate, so I'll have to try to find something that could bore small holes.
@ExtremeMojo3 I used 1.5" drill rod because the ones I bought from Tormach had a 1.5" shoulder. It could be smaller, but if you create a relief in the face like the genuine toolholders it needs to be greater than the diameter of the R8 collet which is close to 1". I have made toolholders using 3/4" drill rod pressed into DOM tubing (3/4" ID, 1/4" wall) as well. I've only measured one toolholder - a center drill which measured .002 TIR. Lots of ways to make it better if needed (like boring).
These holders would be really accurate if you replaced the final reaming operation with a boring operation instead. The drill is always going to wander to some degree, pulling your hole centerline off axis. The reamer will follow this off center hole.
You must be a blast to work with. Sure, this isn't the way I'd do it at work where I have access to CNC mills and lathes, CAD/CAM programs, and the deep pockets of an aerospace defense contractor keeping the tool crib full. If I were a hobbiest at home, though, with access only to a mill and a few tools, this wouldn't be a bad way of going about making a toolholder. If, after 27 years, you haven't learned how to improvise to get the job done, I'd say you aren't much of a machinist at all.
@kingjamez80 I haven't measured, but it has been good enough for my purposes. I get better centering on the mill than I do with my mini-lathe and its tailstock. I didn't show it in the video, but the way I make sure the drill chuck is vertical is to mount another drill chuck in the spindle, leave the lower chuck loose, and chuck the rod in both. Then I tighten up the bolts mounting the chuck to the table. I wouldn't call it super precise, but it has worked for me so far.
I did build my own. Look to CNCZone.com, particularly the forums on MetalWorking Machines/Benchtop Mills. There are a number of threads there that show different approaches to making a power drawbar. Hossmachine.com also has some plans that can be adapted. I am working on a video for my power drawbar but no idea when it will be released.
So basicly all you need is the TTS collet, and then make your own holders. Collet is only 20 bucks. I could whip up a bunch of holders on my lathe. I have an RF20, I wish it would handle the air on the collet shaft.
why don’t u use the the end mill as a drill and use the reamer to make sure it has a good fit in the hole instead of step drilling it i know from experience but good work anyway keep it up man
if you drill a smaller hole right through you can use it machines that have through spindle coolant capable machines like a Haas etc.....!!!! but the only thing is you need to buy mill tooling that has through spindle coolant holes!!
2:38 yout milled surface not any more run good so everytime your tool acurity is diff. if your spindle not aligned then turning tool 180 on spindle VOLA its not matter how correct you drill and make hole for tool its centric only that time xD and sure that measure thing is not that acurite. you can clamp dial on milled part
@xlrationmarine Yes, that is all you need. I am a big fan of the genuine TTS holders - I have many, and they are far better than my homemade ones; especially in the area of the shoulder that ensures good contact with the spindle face. But many holders are non-critical, such as the ones for spot and center drills, or measurement tools; and on those you can save a lot of money by making them yourself.
A lot of what appears to be runout is actually optical - for some reason the holder that I filmed had both light and dark areas, and the spinning holder looks like it has more runout than it actually does. I measured my center drill holder at .002 TIR - not perfect, but not horrible either. The automatic centering process probably doesn't ensure concentricity - chucking a rod between both drill chucks before tightening the lower one would be better. Boring the hole would be best.
If you are doing this for just a hobby and to make parts for some hobby you have then it's fine. But the run out is crazy and I can bet that the reamed hole is over size by at least 0.010". This is a good setup for someone that has a hobby but not if you are machining precision parts.
I checked out your videos - surprise! there are none. 27 years, and that's all you have to offer? I suspect you have been a buttplug for far longer than that.
![일상 속 기분 좋음 [Proto disco meme]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DwmEIaZ7XGQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Another X3/TTS user here. Excellent job on the TTS holders and the video! One thing I noticed is that the Tormach tools have a relief on the spindle side of the 3/4" shaft, to ensure the tool rests only on the spindle face and not on the collet or any other protrusions. I suspect it's probably fine as-is for most applications but it seems an easy detail to consider adding. Kudos again!
Dave I want to Thank you, the way you accomplished the lathe work and mill work in your mill, now I have a direction too work in.
Your videos are fantastic, and you are a very good teacher. You should consider making more of them, I would definitely watch them.
Never seen this before, use a cnc milling machine as a lathe. that is great. 2 thumbs up, great idea.
Nice pair of videos. I've always thought it was a neat concept to use the mill as a vertical lathe. On those toolholders, you may notice that there is a relief on the shank side of the tool holder body on the genuine Tormach holders. This helps with pressure and repeatability. They detail this on their website. Go to "products"-"tormach tooling system"- "about tts" and then look for the "tts animation" link on the left side of the page.
I enjoyed the quality of the video; and, what you shared about a reasonable price approach for creating this type of tool holder. Keep it up!
Your point is valid. I'm satisfied with the tram, but the chuck holder was just thrown together with no specific measures done to assure the holder was square to the table. I use the holders I made with it daily with no problems, but my work is to 'relaxed' precision and wouldn't stand up to commercial standards. I do this for fun.
Great videos. Most people that come on TH-cam to criticize have done nothing to contribute on here. I will try this for roughers and such. Thanks for the vids.
The center finding tool is clever.
Looking forward to the video explaining your pneumatic tightening system!
If you want to be EXACTLY dead center.. use a dialgauge... put the magnetic base on the spindel and put the dial indicator on the drillrod in the chuck.. rotate spindle by hand and adjust X and Y until the hand doesn't move anymore.. this gives you far more accuracy..
How do you mount your drill chuck perfectly vertical?
I haven't had much luck on super precision with the probe method of centering. How accurate are you getting? I'm lucky to have 0.003" repeatability.
Just answered my own question I think - I have found a high res photo of the TTS R8 collet and it looks to be relieved on the inside edge slightly. I had wondered if they just ground it completely flat on the face hence the question. Thanks again for this video series!
Excellent sir, well done!! ;) Funny at just how many "know-it-all's" there are on YT yet when you go to their channel you see nothing but them leaving negative remarks on everyone elses. Great video too, thank you.
I could see that the reamer deflected slightly when it went into the hole. Did that mess up the concentricity of the tool holder? Great video's though, thanks for posting them
There is a small radius at the junction of the shank, but there are several things that make it a non-issue. On true TTS toolholders, there is a relief on the face that makes certain that the tool makes contact with the spindle on the perimeter. Also, the collet is ground flat, and on my mill at least, it rides just slightly inside the spindle face, allowing for a bit of clearance to any radius on the shank. As you say, you could clearance the face with another operation. Thanks
This is fantastic video series - thanks for sharing. A question: after you turn the shoulder of the holder (shank side), does the lathe tool leave a very small radius in the corner, possibly effecting the seating against the flat R8 / MT3 TTS collet. Does this effect anything, and have you thought about a slight undercut in this corner, perhaps using a parting blade or another turning tool to add some negative clearance to the shoulder? Hope that makes sense - curious whether its necessary.
NICE - thanks! Nice production and nice topic coverage.
Looks like you have a lot less backlash on your table than I do (I just have ACME threads, not ballscrews.)
Great video. I have a cnc SX3. What are you using for your power drawbar?
@chuckmerja I am EXTREMELY happy with my CNC conversion. It was a kit from CNCFusion. I used the Deluxe kit which is advertised as 0 backlash, and as far as I am concerned that is what I am getting. I'm sure if I worked at it, I could find some little backlash, but why work?
I have heard that replacing the leadscrew nuts with a delrin block can help with backlash on Acme on the X2 (don't know about the X3). If you ever decide to upgrade I recommend CNCFusion
Thanks for posting these videos. I am currently trying to build a similair setup. I like the trick to center the drill. How did you mount the drill chuck to sit vertically and straight on the bed? Thanks
(last post continued, ran out of space)
A boring operation instead would bring the hole back on axis. As they are bored "in place" they would likely even be more accurate than the "factory" holders if you put an index mark on them and always installed them the same way relative to the collet and spindle.
Dave, I came back after several months for another installation of your videos (and to watch this video again for the 5th time!), but it appears that you have been somewhat lax in developing more high quality instructional videos for our consumption! ;) Looking forward to seeing some in the future!
Good idea. Why don't you make them shoulder on the spindle instead of the collet?
Wow you are the Man the last step how about finishing with just boring bar?
Can you make a video about your power drawbar and a little bit on the setup? great vids
Excellent video, thank you very much for posting!
Been an applications engineer for 20 year worked for maho now @ Wfl I was always taught you never peck with a reamer or a u drill ?
That's something I did not know. I have always cleared chips from a reamer just as I would with a drill; but watching pros like Tom Lipton, Adam Booth, etc I notice they never seem to retract a reamer. I assume it wears the cutting edges? (I did know never to run a reamer in reverse). Thanks for the info, I appreciate learning from people who know.
@saunixcomp Thanks - I enjoy watching your videos as well. I'll try switching around the order of operation the next holder I make, and see if it makes it any better. I'm happy with the results I've gotten so far; these toolholders are mostly for my non-critical tools, so I haven't tried to get ultimate precision. I know the methods of dialing in with a DTI when I have to get it exactly right, but for hobby work I seldom need to.
@titchener Thank you for the suggestion. I hadn't tried boring because most of my tool holes so far have been small (.375 or less) and I don't have a boring tool that small. I agree it would be far more accurate, so I'll have to try to find something that could bore small holes.
@ExtremeMojo3 I used 1.5" drill rod because the ones I bought from Tormach had a 1.5" shoulder. It could be smaller, but if you create a relief in the face like the genuine toolholders it needs to be greater than the diameter of the R8 collet which is close to 1". I have made toolholders using 3/4" drill rod pressed into DOM tubing (3/4" ID, 1/4" wall) as well. I've only measured one toolholder - a center drill which measured .002 TIR. Lots of ways to make it better if needed (like boring).
These holders would be really accurate if you replaced the final reaming operation with a boring operation instead. The drill is always going to wander to some degree, pulling your hole centerline off axis. The reamer will follow this off center hole.
You must be a blast to work with. Sure, this isn't the way I'd do it at work where I have access to CNC mills and lathes, CAD/CAM programs, and the deep pockets of an aerospace defense contractor keeping the tool crib full. If I were a hobbiest at home, though, with access only to a mill and a few tools, this wouldn't be a bad way of going about making a toolholder. If, after 27 years, you haven't learned how to improvise to get the job done, I'd say you aren't much of a machinist at all.
@kingjamez80 I haven't measured, but it has been good enough for my purposes. I get better centering on the mill than I do with my mini-lathe and its tailstock. I didn't show it in the video, but the way I make sure the drill chuck is vertical is to mount another drill chuck in the spindle, leave the lower chuck loose, and chuck the rod in both. Then I tighten up the bolts mounting the chuck to the table. I wouldn't call it super precise, but it has worked for me so far.
Can you point me in the direction where I can buy or make my own pneumatic drawbar release? Did you build your own for this X3?
I did build my own. Look to CNCZone.com, particularly the forums on MetalWorking Machines/Benchtop Mills. There are a number of threads there that show different approaches to making a power drawbar. Hossmachine.com also has some plans that can be adapted. I am working on a video for my power drawbar but no idea when it will be released.
So basicly all you need is the TTS collet, and then make your own holders. Collet is only 20 bucks. I could whip up a bunch of holders on my lathe. I have an RF20, I wish it would handle the air on the collet shaft.
Great! Do you have dimensions of the holder?
why don’t u use the the end mill as a drill and use the reamer to make sure it has a good fit in the hole instead of step drilling it i know from experience but good work anyway keep it up man
if you drill a smaller hole right through you can use it machines that have through spindle coolant capable machines like a Haas etc.....!!!! but the only thing is you need to buy mill tooling that has through spindle coolant holes!!
2:38 yout milled surface not any more run good so everytime your tool acurity is diff.
if your spindle not aligned then turning tool 180 on spindle VOLA its not matter how correct you drill and make hole for tool its centric only that time xD
and sure that measure thing is not that acurite. you can clamp dial on milled part
@xlrationmarine Yes, that is all you need. I am a big fan of the genuine TTS holders - I have many, and they are far better than my homemade ones; especially in the area of the shoulder that ensures good contact with the spindle face. But many holders are non-critical, such as the ones for spot and center drills, or measurement tools; and on those you can save a lot of money by making them yourself.
wouldnt that be easier to make it out of 12L14 steel? Plenty rigid and easier to cut.
A lot of what appears to be runout is actually optical - for some reason the holder that I filmed had both light and dark areas, and the spinning holder looks like it has more runout than it actually does.
I measured my center drill holder at .002 TIR - not perfect, but not horrible either. The automatic centering process probably doesn't ensure concentricity - chucking a rod between both drill chucks before tightening the lower one would be better. Boring the hole would be best.
If you are doing this for just a hobby and to make parts for some hobby you have then it's fine. But the run out is crazy and I can bet that the reamed hole is over size by at least 0.010". This is a good setup for someone that has a hobby but not if you are machining precision parts.
11:58 noooh! cut outer diameter again lol
I checked out your videos - surprise! there are none. 27 years, and that's all you have to offer? I suspect you have been a buttplug for far longer than that.
I have been machining for 27 years and the mickey mouse crap really frustrates me. sorry . I'm going to watch hill-billy hand fishing now.