"For two days Aladdin remained in the dark, crying and lamenting. At last he clasped his hands in prayer, and in so doing rubbed the ring, which the magician had forgotten to take from him. Immediately an enormous and frightful genie rose out of the earth, saying: “What wouldst thou with me? I am the Slave of the Ring, and will obey thee in all things.” Aladdin fearlessly replied: “Deliver me from this place!” whereupon the earth opened, and he found himself outside."
Have any of you read this amazing poem by Derek Walcot? Your conversation sounds very much like this. Love After Love The time will come when, with elation you will greet yourself arriving at your own door, in your own mirror and each will smile at the other's welcome, and say, sit here. Eat. You will love again the stranger who was your self. Give wine. Give bread. Give back your heart to itself, to the stranger who has loved you all your life, whom you ignored for another, who knows you by heart. Take down the love letters from the bookshelf, the photographs, the desperate notes, peel your own image from the mirror. Sit. Feast on your life.
Dang! at min 39:55 JV makes reference to Jurgen Habermas' 3 modes of discourse based on Kant's 3 critiques (Kant: Science, Art, Morals - JH: Assertoric, Aesthetic, Normative mode of discourse). T0M =)
A hermit is a universal archetype. I am particularly "aware of" Chinese hermits living in China today. They also exist in the Himalayas from time immemorial.
My all time favorite hermit: John Muir. Love that guy. The shocking truth about many, if not most hermits: they are surprisingly sociable people. It's as if the long time they spend by themselves helps them to value human interactions.
I'm not sure if this is the same thing but I've had frequent dialogues with Papa Peterson and a number of other people, though I've not met any of them. These conversations have been very useful while I'm working something through in my head. And quite pleasent at the same time.
24:55 The gods do get dismissed or shunned in this little corner I agree. I’m glad they’re finally being talked about more. I’m still waiting for Athena 🙂❤️ And I even more Persephone ❤️❤️❤️
Whole religions, including the LDS one I grew up in, were motivated by foundational experiences based on theophanies, visitations of angels. We are quick to judge these experiences. I appreciate John for his courage in relaying his experiences.
I have to admit that I am concerned a little bit that John is hanging out with an entity calling itself "Hermes", but so far, the fruit seems to be good, so I can't complain much. The way that he explained it made a lot of sense to me. Still....I would be curious to hear what someone like Fr. Chad Ripperger or Fr Dan Reehill would say about something like this. Not sure they would be so positive.
Thank you both! It'd be interesting to think about the archetypal meaning of Hermes' appearance here, can it be a precursor of sorts? Jung reflects on Mercury as the trickster in "On the Psychology of the Trickster Figure" (cf. Pageau clown-world, the end of the carnival, etc.): "A curious combination of typical trickster motifs can be found in the alchemical figure of Mercurius; for instance, his fondness for sly jokes and malicious pranks, his powers as a shape-shifter, his dual nature, half animal, half divine, his exposure to all kinds of tortures, and-last but not least-his approximation to the figure of a saviour. These qualities make Mercurius seem like a daemonic being resurrected from primitive times, older even than the Greek Hermes. (...) the figure of the trickster ... is a forerunner of the saviour (...) If, at the end of the trickster myth, the saviour is hinted at, this comforting premonition or hope means that some calamity or other has happened and been consciously understood. Only out of disaster can the longing for the saviour arise-in other words, the recognition and unavoidable integration of the shadow create such a harrowing situation that nobody but a saviour can undo the tangled web of fate."
Consider also Jung's words in "Concerning Rebirth": "...a scholiast adds: “The seeker after truth hears both the Stone and the Philosopher speaking as if out of one mouth.” The Philosopher is Hermes, and the Stone is identical with Mercurius, the Latin Hermes.From the earliest times, Hermes was the mystagogue and psychopomp of the alchemists, their friend and counsellor, who leads them to the goal of their work. He is “like a teacher mediating between the stone and the disciple.”To others the friend appears in the shape of Christ..."
BTW... In regards to Nate fearing to be the "Valentin Tomberg guy"... I think it's awesome. Tomberg's book "Meditation on the Tarot" should be mandatory reading for everyone in the TLC, along with Alcoholic Anonymous' Big Book. The fact that Hans Urs von Balthasar was a fan of the book is just the icing on the cake for me personally. The best tribute to Valentin Tomberg I've ever come across is a book called "Cor Jesu Sacratissimum: From Secularism and the New Age to Christendom Renewed" by Roger Buck. It is one of the most incredible books I've ever come across from a Catholic perspective, and he gives a tremendous amount of credit to Tomberg for making him a better Christian, and quotes him extensively. If you haven't read that book yet, I give it my highest recommendation. As far as I'm concerned, you can't mention Tomberg too much or too often. He was a truly great man.
John - What weirdos like me need from you with regard to your Hermes stuff is a differentiation between what's going on with you, and what was going on with the 3 humans involved with The Ra Material
Nate, sorry for raiding your comment section, but now that I know we met IRL, it seems necessary. Why doesn't Dr. Vervake talk about any other senses? Like the way a smell can take you back to your grandmother's house? His approach seems very limited to the mind.
Laremy, nice to see you here. He actually does, especially when he talks about participative knowing, he will often use tactile metaphors and often talks about his experiences with Tai Chi. Wonderful point about smell, it's often overlooked as as you point out it's tied to memory. "To deny is to kill; to forget is to bury. To honour and appreciate is to preserve living; to restore to memory is to recall to life." -Valentin Tomberg Look for Vandonk and CW and I to show up at the Fruited Plain someday. Would love you have you on anytime. Who knows, maybe we can convince Paul to come too :)
Well then… you people are describing a fractal. Up and down the hierarchy… Mandelbrot again. Mandelbrot is a mapping of connected Julia sets. Iterating to the Mandelbrot set. But I guess this little corner is missing something? The whole world is missing it. Not only is the brain a Mandelbrot set but so to is every iteration of being , feeling…. The structure is created by minimal surfaces… spirit ….
This reminded me, Nate, of your discussion posted back in July of 2022 titled, "Christian Esotericism" with Jonathan Pageau and Michael Martin. What Vervaeke is going through is somewhat reminiscent of John Dee, who, as I recall, Martin described as a fundamentally good man who was ultimately led into mortal sin by these practices. Thoughts?
@@williambranch4283 we will have to discuss this more, William. I just want some consistency in TLC regarding this realm of activity. On the one hand, sex work and the consumption thereof is commonly pronounced as demonic-to many amens from the TLC Choir, but if JV conjures a spirit from Antiquity, it's bad form to express concern or cite biblical mandates. I'm not coming down hard on this. I am seeking honest and fair dialogue.
Edifying. Thanks for sharing this conversation. Using the archetypes to contrast against fate (including practical exercises) is powerful work. Inspirational to hear John's articulation. Fantastic setups and insights Nate!
What a great treat. Thanks to both of you
This was the right place to have this discussion. Thank you both for your courage, candor and sincerity 🙏
This was THE BEST interview with Dr. John I've seen to date! Well done!
So much GOODNESS here, so much!
"For two days Aladdin remained in the dark, crying and lamenting. At last he clasped his hands in prayer, and in so doing rubbed the ring, which the magician had forgotten to take from him. Immediately an enormous and frightful genie rose out of the earth, saying: “What wouldst thou with me? I am the Slave of the Ring, and will obey thee in all things.” Aladdin fearlessly replied: “Deliver me from this place!” whereupon the earth opened, and he found himself outside."
Have any of you read this amazing poem by Derek Walcot? Your conversation sounds very much like this.
Love After Love
The time will come
when, with elation
you will greet yourself arriving
at your own door, in your own mirror
and each will smile at the other's welcome,
and say, sit here. Eat.
You will love again the stranger who was your self.
Give wine. Give bread. Give back your heart
to itself, to the stranger who has loved you
all your life, whom you ignored
for another, who knows you by heart.
Take down the love letters from the bookshelf,
the photographs, the desperate notes,
peel your own image from the mirror.
Sit. Feast on your life.
Dang! at min 39:55 JV makes reference to Jurgen Habermas' 3 modes of discourse based on Kant's 3 critiques (Kant: Science, Art, Morals - JH: Assertoric, Aesthetic, Normative mode of discourse). T0M =)
Hey Tom!
A hermit is a universal archetype. I am particularly "aware of" Chinese hermits living in China today. They also exist in the Himalayas from time immemorial.
My all time favorite hermit: John Muir. Love that guy.
The shocking truth about many, if not most hermits: they are surprisingly sociable people. It's as if the long time they spend by themselves helps them to value human interactions.
My my....blessings for me!!!
Parlato wins! ❤🥳🤗
@@Neal_Daedalus and this is all GC gets as a comment ...
@@GrimGriz You Can’t Always Get What You Want. But if you try sometime
NATE: I am watching this now and Grooving it! We must talk! T0M from 0ly!!!
I'm not sure if this is the same thing but I've had frequent dialogues with Papa Peterson and a number of other people, though I've not met any of them. These conversations have been very useful while I'm working something through in my head. And quite pleasent at the same time.
This was fantastic, you brought out some great stuff from John, thank you.
The Hermit is such a great frame for this discussion! Probably my favorite chapter in Meditation on the Tarot.
24:55
The gods do get dismissed or shunned in this little corner I agree. I’m glad they’re finally being talked about more.
I’m still waiting for Athena 🙂❤️
And I even more Persephone ❤️❤️❤️
You wan't to be kidnapped by Hades? Athena was good enough for Odysseus, she's good enough for me ;-)
@@williambranch4283
Maybe not kidnapped, but I want to greet her like Orpheus
Whole religions, including the LDS one I grew up in, were motivated by foundational experiences based on theophanies, visitations of angels. We are quick to judge these experiences. I appreciate John for his courage in relaying his experiences.
Paranormal is real. Don't try while paragliding! ;-)
@@williambranch4283dat wuz funny
I encountered Psyche last summer and I'm still a Christian, still employed, still got friends and family. Lol
Awesome conversation, Nate! 👍❤️
I have to admit that I am concerned a little bit that John is hanging out with an entity calling itself "Hermes", but so far, the fruit seems to be good, so I can't complain much. The way that he explained it made a lot of sense to me.
Still....I would be curious to hear what someone like Fr. Chad Ripperger or Fr Dan Reehill would say about something like this. Not sure they would be so positive.
Well now, isn't this a treat!
Thank you both! It'd be interesting to think about the archetypal meaning of Hermes' appearance here, can it be a precursor of sorts? Jung reflects on Mercury as the trickster in "On the Psychology of the Trickster Figure" (cf. Pageau clown-world, the end of the carnival, etc.):
"A curious combination of typical trickster motifs can be found in the alchemical figure of Mercurius; for instance, his fondness for sly jokes and malicious pranks, his powers as a shape-shifter, his dual nature, half animal, half divine, his exposure to all kinds of tortures, and-last but not least-his approximation to the figure of a saviour. These qualities make Mercurius seem like a daemonic being resurrected from primitive times, older even than the Greek Hermes. (...)
the figure of the trickster ... is a forerunner of the saviour (...)
If, at the end of the trickster myth, the saviour is hinted at, this comforting premonition or hope means that some calamity or other has happened and been consciously understood. Only out of disaster can the longing for the saviour arise-in other words, the recognition and unavoidable integration of the shadow create such a harrowing situation that nobody but a saviour can undo the tangled web of fate."
Consider also Jung's words in "Concerning Rebirth":
"...a scholiast adds: “The seeker after truth hears both the Stone and the Philosopher speaking as if out of one mouth.” The Philosopher is Hermes, and the Stone is identical with Mercurius, the Latin Hermes.From the earliest times, Hermes was the mystagogue and psychopomp of the alchemists, their friend and counsellor, who leads them to the goal of their work. He is “like a teacher mediating between the stone and the disciple.”To others the friend appears in the shape of Christ..."
Jesus is a trickster in Godspell.
"The risk is worth it." Respect for the scribe of Hermes.
Can you do it with an fMRI thing on your head?
BTW...
In regards to Nate fearing to be the "Valentin Tomberg guy"... I think it's awesome. Tomberg's book "Meditation on the Tarot" should be mandatory reading for everyone in the TLC, along with Alcoholic Anonymous' Big Book. The fact that Hans Urs von Balthasar was a fan of the book is just the icing on the cake for me personally.
The best tribute to Valentin Tomberg I've ever come across is a book called "Cor Jesu Sacratissimum: From Secularism and the New Age to Christendom Renewed" by Roger Buck. It is one of the most incredible books I've ever come across from a Catholic perspective, and he gives a tremendous amount of credit to Tomberg for making him a better Christian, and quotes him extensively. If you haven't read that book yet, I give it my highest recommendation.
As far as I'm concerned, you can't mention Tomberg too much or too often. He was a truly great man.
26:00 “share with other people” generative meaning that I share with other people that they find valuable.
Nate it’s time you got a better microphone
Ooohh man I want him to say more about Hanuman
No monkey-business in TLC ;-)
@@williambranch4283
🔥
touché
Minute 41ish. Careful discernment. Exactly.
Eyes two-thirds up from the bottom of the screen fellas :)
😂
😢
Enoch walked with God and was not because God took him.
It’s really weird when experience confounds our knowledge…. Science.
First
John - What weirdos like me need from you with regard to your Hermes stuff is a differentiation between what's going on with you, and what was going on with the 3 humans involved with The Ra Material
Ooo that Ra stuff is a bit bizarre. Seems different than John’s approach but maybe not. Less proselytization.
Nate, sorry for raiding your comment section, but now that I know we met IRL, it seems necessary.
Why doesn't Dr. Vervake talk about any other senses? Like the way a smell can take you back to your grandmother's house? His approach seems very limited to the mind.
Laremy, nice to see you here. He actually does, especially when he talks about participative knowing, he will often use tactile metaphors and often talks about his experiences with Tai Chi. Wonderful point about smell, it's often overlooked as as you point out it's tied to memory.
"To deny is to kill; to forget is to bury. To honour and appreciate is to preserve living; to restore to
memory is to recall to life." -Valentin Tomberg
Look for Vandonk and CW and I to show up at the Fruited Plain someday. Would love you have you on anytime. Who knows, maybe we can convince Paul to come too :)
Moving up?
Re: creation coming into being through the spoken word
Incantation & incarnation seem to be very near & dear.
Well then… you people are describing a fractal. Up and down the hierarchy…
Mandelbrot again.
Mandelbrot is a mapping of connected Julia sets. Iterating to the Mandelbrot set.
But I guess this little corner is missing something?
The whole world is missing it.
Not only is the brain a Mandelbrot set but so to is every iteration of being , feeling…. The structure is created by minimal surfaces… spirit ….
1:33 I'm one of those Christian "thinkers".
Yes you are
But has the Wizard of Oz given you a brain yet? ;-)
This reminded me, Nate, of your discussion posted back in July of 2022 titled, "Christian Esotericism" with Jonathan Pageau and Michael Martin. What Vervaeke is going through is somewhat reminiscent of John Dee, who, as I recall, Martin described as a fundamentally good man who was ultimately led into mortal sin by these practices.
Thoughts?
@@MarkDParker Dr Faustus got to spend time with Helen of Troy. One version of the play says his soul was redeemed ... the other says he went to Hell.
@@williambranch4283 we will have to discuss this more, William. I just want some consistency in TLC regarding this realm of activity. On the one hand, sex work and the consumption thereof is commonly pronounced as demonic-to many amens from the TLC Choir, but if JV conjures a spirit from Antiquity, it's bad form to express concern or cite biblical mandates.
I'm not coming down hard on this. I am seeking honest and fair dialogue.
what an interesting subject-yet to more Vervaekean incoherence. 😫
Hermeticism has what to do with being a hermit? I guess I have to watch this. No time!
Edifying. Thanks for sharing this conversation.
Using the archetypes to contrast against fate (including practical exercises) is powerful work. Inspirational to hear John's articulation.
Fantastic setups and insights Nate!