Exploring the Connection Between Wisdom, Love, and the Really Real
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 พ.ค. 2024
- Elizabeth Oldfield is a writer, speaker, and advocate for intentional community living based in South London. Her work, including her book 'Fully Alive', explores the intersections of faith, culture, and ethics through a deeply personal lens.
In a world that often trivializes love and deep connections, how can we cultivate a life of wisdom, virtue, and transcendence amidst our finite existence and growing polarization?
Join John Vervaeke and Elizabeth Oldfield in a profound dialogue that explores these critical themes of human existence, drawing from Platonic to Christian thought and emphasizing the transformative power of dialogical reasoning, cognitive flexibility, and awe. Elizabeth Oldfield shares insights from her book 'Fully Alive,' an Augustinian blend of autobiographical confession and psycho-spiritual reflection that highlights relational living and the transformative power of love. The conversation addresses the trivialization of love in modern culture and advocates for a deeper understanding while navigating the complexities of polarization in politics, the comparison between psychedelic and spiritual experiences, and the intrinsic value of community and wisdom traditions in achieving a virtuous life. Discover the necessity of grounding transformative experiences in communal practices for genuine personal and societal transformation in this thought-provoking discussion.
Support John's groundbreaking work and gain exclusive access to live Q&A sessions, early video releases, and more by joining our Patreon community! / johnvervaeke
Discover a profound exploration of love, wisdom, and the human soul in Elizabeth Oldfield's upcoming book, "Fully Alive: Tending to the Soul in Turbulent Times." www.amazon.com/Fully-Alive-Te...
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“I can close my eyes now and know myself’s seen, and the deep knowing of the presence of love in my life and the way that every other moment of love, and encounter, and intimacy reflects that is the ground of my being.” - Elizabeth Oldfield [00:32:48]
"Wisdom is about this loving enhancement of our connectedness. The wise person can go into a complex, messy, ill-defined situation and home in on what's relevant, summoning their agency in the right way so that they are properly responsible." - John Vervaeke [00:31:04]
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0:00 Introduction to Voices with Vervaeke: Elizabeth Oldfield'
1:30 Elizabeth Oldfield: Life, Faith, and the Quest for Existential Satisfaction
2:50 Exploring 'Fully Alive': Deep Dialogues on Belonging, Soul, and Existential Satisfaction
6:05 Plato's Insights on the Psyche, Inner Conflict, and the Pursuit of Inner Fullness
10:20 The Quest for Inner Peace, Wisdom, and Understanding Sin
14:20 The Interplay of Love, Wisdom, and the Divine in the Pursuit of Fully Aliveness
27:15 Unpacking the Realization of the Really Real: Connectedness, Love, and Presence
45:50 Identity, Cultural Scripts, and the Tension between Faith and Intellect
47:45 Expanding Our Understanding of Intelligence, Reality, and the Role of Attention
1:00:40 The Challenge of Authentic Love, Reverence, and Awe in a Trivialized World
1:13:10 Reverence, Awe, and the Cultivation of Virtue on the Path to Wisdom
1:22:50 Concluding Reflections on Love, Wisdom, and the Pursuit of Fully Aliveness
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Authors, Ideas, and Works Mentioned in this Episode
Plato
Freud
Pascal
Dialogos
Kenosis
Thumos
Homo Inconvartis in Se
Plato’s Dialogues
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Follow Elizabeth Oldfield:
www.elizabetholdfield.com/
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Thank you for watching!
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This was wonderful John and Elizabeth, thank you!
As an Estuary Leader from the Paul Vanderklay and John Vandonk corner I appreciated that there was a sense of the Angel in the Room throughout this conversation. Both of you were consistently posturing towards that otherness. In that way you were embodying what you were speaking about and not merely theorizing. Inspiring conversation in that regard!
1:02:07 to 1:02:55 - well said !
I encountered that "Love" by "accident" in the middle of a dirt field by my self and it was overwhelming, Loving in an exponential way and permanently transformative...
Similar to an Acts 9 moment - Saul to Paul
Thank you, John and Liz. I get as excited as you both do.
This was food for my heart and soul. Thank you both deeply, for being you and sharing this beautiful discussion.
John, you've been a great inspiration. I've written three books about ideas that intertwined with yours and of course, with the whole Tradition. I always go back to you to have a dialogue, contemplate and to get challenged. It's deeply meaningful to me. It's Beautiful. You've been of few people around the world who bring this to the relevance. I'm thankful. Be well.
Greetings from the Czech Republic.
Grace & peace to you Elizabeth - your quiet, humility & patience felt very Godpleasing to this witness 🙏🏼
Perhaps an astute bridge for next time
th-cam.com/video/9F9xUhaimTY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=n9FXlyl0lZbeVB2n
She is a good girl
Falling in love whit the world again, john your gift.... i have no words!
Thank you
Lovely dialog. This dialog and your work are helping me in my work as a mental health professional providing Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) and related interventions in which we work with the concept of wise mind, and cultivation of integration in a life worth living. This includes developing the 4Cs: Coherence, Congruence, Competence, and Confidence, etc. and so on. Anyhoo, keep up the good work, John, and thank you again.
The videos Dr.Vervaeke created is to be watched more than one time and led out right way of life, his selection of topic is what I admire to be fan of this channel.
The love is empathic way of expressing identity inside and it would be spiritually what we are and how we are human, it is hardly in daily life, but attitude only is okay to have then it would loosen the quarrel between different people. Not only love between man and woman, agape is metaphor for this and this is also good lesson to non-Christian people.
This day, I watch this video again and reminded of spirituality is important. Practice is matter, so we live by.
I love your comment. Thanks.
So AMAZING dialogos, with so much love and wisdom that is hard to grasp in just listening, you have to live it. Congratulations!!!
Today I turned in my bachelor's thesis in pedagogy, where I write about belonging, dialogue and meaning in higher education. Turning in that thesis felt very much like coming home in the sense that my life, after 35 years, finally feels like it's homing in on something really real and important. And both you, (especially you!) John Vervaeke, Jordan Peterson, Jonathan Pageu and Sam Harris, have lead me to this point. And, even though it's a cliché, words cannot describe my gratitude!
I'll let you know that I used both your article on dialectic into dialogos and your article on fear of the unknown, meaning in life and psychological distress. Super interesting stuff, I love it!
Also, listening to this conversation brings tears to my eyes, because I feel a tremendous sense of connection and resonance with what is being said, and being part of this "movement" in this point in time feels meaningful and important! Thank you, John and Elizabeth, for this thought provoking and interesting talk! I really look forward to delving even deeper into Buber, Augustine and Plato this summer.
Thank you so much for sharing this!!
PS: Thank you for demonstrating presenced love between you both, and your respective vulnerability.
Bless you.Bhudda is dancing with christ.We come together and agree.Our connection is building strength.
Appreciate your content. Always amazing guests. Thank you!
Thank You Both very much, great conversation, wish I had that much wisdom.
53:20 there's a relief sitting in the presence of the divine because it's not constantly renegotiating its Identity in the way that we are... Looking at this through an IFS filter, our renegotiation of our identity is our internal discourse amongst our selves.
But in the context of Joscha Bachs observation of God as a self shared across many minds: we're going to experience that self directly, as we do all our selves.
Hello to everyone , one of de most interesting dialogue to me, the difficulty to put in words whats is ineffable leaves us with the task to try to do it anyway and on this path we discover our self
like never before and whiteout fear.... Thank you for your honesty John and Eliza
Many thanks!💜🙏
12:37 knowledge is about overcoming ignorance, wisdom is about overcoming foolishness
A heartfelt thanks to you both. Also looking forward to the continuation of this conversation.
There is souch I could say about this, my comment wpuld be a 1,000-word essay that nobody would read. So I'll just say that when John said "This is a good place to end," I was like "Nooooooo!" Can't wait for part 2!
12:44 This idea that foolishness is a sort of a self-perpetuating system and locks you in feels like such a excellent description
That moment when she says "Everytime you describe it, it's like that, but it also isn't":
There is a story about Ibn Arabi in which he is asked whether rational endeavors match mystical insights, and his answer is both "yes and no".
This is a very bad summary of the story, but I got excited at the parallel.
14:20 sin as a failure to love wisely... Is that the same as loving foolishly? I think it might be, by definition.
15:55 pride is the idea that we can manage without other people, the solipsistic isolated position
I’d love to get a link to the story or book by Ibn Arabi
So am I!
Such a great talk, with lots of meat and bones.
Now for something possibly silly,
The feeling she got when seeing her child that was both surprised and familiar at the same time, I remember some Benny Hill episodes where something crazy would happen and the camera panned to his face and he gave a look of surprise and confusion at the same time.
I think Mr Bean had the same look, probably overused the fourth wall.
John, I loved everything, but especially when you said (paraphrasing) that the fact that there are no words to describe the transjective experience of Presence does *not* mean that there is any space or distance between us and [nameless ineffable mystery goes here, indicated by hand motions and facial expressions]. That, in fact, it reaches down and flows into the space where the words would go, if only we had the words. And in this moment-with that *poetic image* of [something] "flowing down into" the non-words that we want to say, but can't-it seemed truer than ever that the words by which we need to reach out for that flow which is not far, but flows down to us, need to be *poetry* first and foremost.
Thank you, John! Peace/Love/Wisdom🤗
31:00 The wise person can go into a messy complex ill-defined situation and home in on what's relevant
“You're an interesting species. An interesting mix. You're capable of such beautiful dreams, and such horrible nightmares. You feel so lost, so cut off, so alone, only you're not. See, in all our searching, the only thing we've found that makes the emptiness bearable, is each other.”
― Carl Sagan, Contact
Hi John thanks for making the time& space for these discussions. With regard to your definition of ignorance & foolishness, I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on the Buddhist perspective. Where ignorance is a process, ‘ignoring’ is an event of mental factors in the moment, a volitional choice that drives kamma, in the psychological sense of building conditioning impressions and tendencies of mind. The idea being it rather keeps us on the wheel, merry-go-round, of self deception and it takes great awareness to overcome this sort of mind trap. Thanks much appreciated Jeff
Thank you our Beautiful Elizabeth! Attending unto our OWN. Love you too my beautiful! Remind for many who am I beautiful? Share thy "i" AM beautiful!
38:16 - Elizabeth talking about describing her first experience with God/the really Real, “I love words but my sentences were like richiching off of the memory.” Those words of metaphor landed perfectly. Visceral. I get you too. Bravo. 🙌🪨
Love sliding past our consciousness indeed! Yet we betray our existence without it. Collective madness.
Yes more pls! 😊
I just read a book about the 8th century Xi'an stele in China which documents 150 years of early Christianity in the area - and I wondered if John will be heading for that on his Philosophical Silk Road journey. This artefact teaches us about the natural crossover between the way of the Way and the way of Christ and seems like a natural beginning/end of the PSR.
'Fully Alive' doesn't seem to be available here until 23rd of this month 😢
Beloved are ye speaking? Yes, like all shared "i" AM are not "made up"!
Elizabeth, we should definitely talk!
Around 58 minutes you mention James Filler’s book about ontology being more relational, but if I remember correctly from another podcast you did you recommended Rosen’s work as a counter to some of the arguments made by Filler. Would you be able to tell me what works by Rosen this would be?
Thank you for this brilliant episode as always John
I mentioned Rosen’s book Nihilism which has a much more negative take on Heidegger.
Thank you pop! Ye already know? Need not to remind. Love THEE!
A new Table made from a hand without blood stains upon HIS hand. To come to have sincere conversations. Upon the New Table fresh!
I shall need to listen to this conversation many more times, but I predict that it will have a transformative effect on me more than any experience in my recollection. Is there by any chance a transcription of this mind-blowing conversation, or should I write one?
Thank you very kind words. I believe there is a way to get a transcript from TH-cam but I am not sure how one does it. Perhaps someone reading this comment could help.
Hey John, I have a question: I had this intuition on about something I called worthness, which is where you completely feel that life is worth living. And I wonder how it is placed in accordance with your sense of religio and belonging. I dont think worthness is necessarily bound to belonging nor religo but is quite close. Examples are to me at least a sunrise or kiss. Probably when going from a state of bordering of suicidality to a state of relief. Like if youre cold and exhausted before the sunrise comes up and is beautiful and warming, or if you were afraid that you would never dare to kiss her but then she kisses you. Hope you answer, love your work❤️
Re: amplifying the image of proper size, so that it brings in the idea of proper size automatically entailing restored relationship -- the hebrew bible's word for this is tsedaqah - "righteousness" - but in the sense of right-relation, or "doing justice to the harmony present in the cosmos" as Balentine says.
What does your friend Christopher MasterPietro (apologies for any misspelling) mean by, “asking interested questions instead of interesting questions”?
-just a viewer that is in love with your work. Thank you sir.
Yes, worth more than Creation itself!
35:14 remembering! 🌚☄️❤️💫
John, my colleague Sumedha reached out to you. I think you won’t be disappointed in responding to her. Pls. Cheers brother.
Together with thy shared "i" AM, came with sincere conversations, and thy shared Feet resting upon my Footstool! Beloved removed anxiety from many "WHO AM I"? Remedy will say, remember thy shared "i" AM! Yes, should WHO? Make the little "i" to become capital "I"?
I think for love, East and West are same. It is like Fats Waller - Ain't Misbehavin' - Stormy Weather (1943) ^^
The TH-cam video URL is omitted, if you would like to listen the music and performance, please search for by Fats Waller - Ain't Misbehavin'
I AM that I AM
What shape must I take for you to finally believe?
To see only with your eyes is to see nothing at all.
I'm the experience embedded in it all.
I am dirt underfoot and the sweet scent in
the air,
I am the sounds of nature stirring around everywhere.
I am the morning dew waking nature to her senses,
I am the fire that cleanses and the water that quenches.
I am that I am.
I am the universe birthing to life,
I am the first dawn and the last night.
I am the sun that rises and the moon that sets,
I am the stars you see at the edges of every galaxy you've met.
I am Halley's comet and the aurora's lights,
I am the one who brings hope late in the night.
I am that I am.
I am the first cry of a newborn and the last breath of a wrinkled man.
I am the unbroken promises between myself and these lands.
I am the tears in your eyes and the smile on your face,
I am the one who forgives and will always offer my grace.
What shape must I take for you to finally see
That I am the embedded experience in every possibility.
Remember who said? If ye LOVE ME! LOVE YOU TOO!
Wow
12:40 foolishness is the failure to grasp the proper significance of what you know and apply it in your life
Creation why desired thee? Hold thy peace let all shared Mouths speak in front!
Remember either or! Which ye prefer?
May 5 is Children's day in Korea, thesedays less children found on street and amusement park. It is because population cliff is happening in Korea, many people should love harder! (joke ^^)
I myself is not experienced deep love affairs^^ (with determined and decisive tone)
Love you too, my beautiful! Fulfillment come here in front! Remind my beautiful! Loving my beautiful without shame but with boldness! For all eyes to see! For thee my beautiful! Remember thy "i" AM beautiful! Yes, all Heirs Hosts shared "i" AM! Will recognize in front of WHO? Some will say is the OLive...REAL? Beloved remember what is a SUN just looking pretty? Without shared "i" AM will say? Nor what is the Moon without ye all to say? Remember what is my creation without thee all?
Pop if silent! Yes, remember who keeps watch? Where else all thy eyes came from? Yes, who searches the Hearts and Minds? Remember all ye all have is shared! Why ye marvel?
Why unto all the wise nor scribes? Remember it's ok to correct one another nor to bring to remembrance and comes with comfort! Remember without nor need to be offended!
Foolishness is a failure to understand that love is what connects us? Kind of.
I think wisdom is to understand goodness and righteousness as the foundation to love.
Love can be misplaced and twisted if it's not intrinsically linked to goodness and righteousness.
5:00 take your existential satisfaction privilege
33:09 edensjoy! 🌚☄️❤️💫
John, connect the “surprise and familiarity” from the 4 letter code to sell anything talk from Derek Thompson - Most Advanced and Yet Acceptable - MAYA - which to me leads to Sunyata. I can help you, if you let me.
🌚☄️❤️💫
Love is kind of humanistic empathy to people who like, which is often regarded by other's desire. The other in this sense is not lovers, but more than common sense. It is what is so-called secret, by whom, and sealed by consecutive experiences of failure. Myself as experienced "everything" inversed, could love, how is it inversed as time passes? The most empathic man is vulnerable by modifying everything in life. Transformation in this sense is tragic, I live anyway. It looks by desire of others still.
I don't want to say morally wiser way to this topic.
Dr.Vervaeke and his guests are great people though, I am telling the above reply as some references when some people have requested about my past.
Remember i do have fighters knows? Knows concerning if ye are tired! Take advantage nor...humility! Fighters will say, knows HIS VOICE? Worth respecting, honoring, loving, and as a friend giving my life for a friend kind of love. Who love with patience, mercy, and grace! Yes, judgment and Justice knows? Who sitteth upon? Humility stood up from HIS SEAT to take the LOWEST SEAT LASTS. Even to washed all the ACCUSERS FEET TO BE GIVEN NEW FEET! Fighters shared "i" AM will say even though knowing can BOUND ALL FEET! Unto all the RENOWNED! What is a FOOTSTOOL? Our Beautiful shared "i" AM will say, HIS feet resting upon "DO NO MORE"! Rather not to stir HIM UP! Nevertheless...who love with patience visitations upon all! Yes, remember what follows? Can't separate my SEAT! Likewise unto all shared "i" AM sitteth upon the Seats can't separate. Judgment and justice will say, who is that Voice so FAMILIAR? Same with all seats who am I sitteth! Who is that Voice? So familiar! Quaking knows belongs?
Beloved and our Beautiful don't mind the shaking!
1:05:15 Richard Dawkins are u there?
Beloved and my Beautiful don't mind the SON sitteth upon the lowest seat LASTS? Punching bag sitteth! Absorbing all punches! Without being offended! Till ye have enough! Till ye get tired! Now should i say is my TURN? Rather not to take advantage of thy tiredness! Rather to carry thee! 1 footprint!
Om
M g
Thank goodness that you can alter the playback speed and slow down. You guys are talking so fast about such complex things. for a first time listener the pace you go at makes it really hard to catch and no time to sink in. Does the fact it’s a TH-cam discussion make you speed up? Oldfield’s the Sacred is more natural and runs at a more considered pace.
Sin in Aramaic, to miss the mark.
Does Mr. Vervaeke actually peruse these comments?
Well he answers some of them, so either yes, he does, or no, it's just a very well-trained Vervaekebot.
@@RobinTurner Thanks, my man.
Where is the fire in your belly?
Pop unto all my Heirs Hosts shared "i" AM Chinese. Pop a little Child born "i" 12-29-1976 Signature. Who will removed the scales from all Dragons eyes! So they may see WHO? Pop bring a scribes nor wise in China! Pop 12-29-1976 Signature. Interpret! Will know? Gratitude and Honor
Lucifer and the fallen angels are true in their accusation of God only if God didnt know who he was. The father poses to historical Christians that his willingness to send his only beggoten son was his creedence of alegence to the trinity. However, when there is a war in heaven, its because Lucifer is confused about his position with God, he has reasons beyond doubt I believe to take God at his word and to believe that he is good and will always provide. I think our identities would have come through in heaven eventually when God could see that his angels were ready and worthy for the next step. Which i conclude would of being the creation of woman on the bases that they could prove that God was the centeral focal point of the worship of heaven. I think the Father was disguising from the view of Lucifer a plan for woman but he was blinded by his desire for power which over the expanse of space he served God faithfully seen Jesus as a barrier to the power he believed was meet for him according to the figure God had clothed him to be. I think the sense of disguse like you said John the covering of holyness or the devine was the father attempting to prove the worthyness of his creation to be given the next thing which I believe would of been woman and in fact everthing that is in creation I personally believe is the sum of his everlasting desire no matter which way we came through I think we would of still being ourselfs. I think the father died first, the mother was actually the original ark for Lucifer had he just persuvered perhaps, one can only submise. Which is to say that we are going back to God, just in the wrong order. Jesus sees both the lambs and goats are both outside the camp because he now understands how his father died in the first place. I say beauty is to love the death in us all so the life can make sense of itself automatically. I take off my shoes in a place where the transendent is telling me I am standing on holy ground, I feel a fire like the one that drew the attention of Moses the burning bush, I hear the voice of God saying you are about to encounter Moses, I can sense there are apostles behind Moses and that the fire of the Holy Spirit is above their heads, Moses calls to me and asks, ask me anything and I shall grant it unto you, I pause and embody that which is, not that which is not, and I say, that we will meet again. I feel that Lucifer is coming and that he wants to take me out, I confront him, almost to say you fear me, I know it so I dare you to come against me. Not long after this interpersonal confrontaion, I lay as one asleep while wide awake, I say to Lucifer I am willing to take your place in the bottemless pit to take your punishment. I say in my spirit almost as if it was in unicen with Lucifer if you are willing to trade places just kiss my lips and it will be done, then comes an image of a goblen like figure in my minds eyes, I kiss his lips and the exchance is made. Their is deep hurt here for us both, he sees that prehaps he has gone too far, perhaps he sees that he had planted a get out of jail free card in me as a baby, no mother, abusive father, abusive household, he gets his escape goat, but at what cost? I say the answers are here. I love you all, I say you must take this and breath with the narrative, I bear all of the images in the bible, the worst of them and the least desirable so that I may bring my self to be in the place where the worst of them go. I seal the deal one cold night by commiting the unpardonable sin, audibly and with passion and zeal, as a mad man, that dosnt know his place or as one who does not understand. So I make my own sentece and kill my self forever. Then God proves his love for me as I returen to him in faith that the father I know, is more than the father I dont.
She is smart but lonely
What is? He is, yet is not, and yet...? Fill in the blank
I have been wanting you to talk to more women, but this was disappointing. Something about her is not resonating. Annoying and navel gazing vibe. Vervaeke kept trying to connect but nothing was landing.