in payday 2 every lobby has a host, meaning one of the player's computers acts as the server for the entire lobby, which generally worked really well even on hardware from 2012 so the idea that hosting a solo server for payday 3 would be "too demanding" for modern hardware is baffling
Most people who play PD3 shockingly don't use modern hardware, I would know as I didn't initially and complained about how bad the game ran and how resource intensive solo mode was compared to SBZ servers. I think it's fair to a degree to assume most people don't wanna buy a 2000 dollar gaming PC just so PD3 runs well as to why SBZ opted to use servers rather than peer2peer. I think PD3 would improve with hosted peer2peer co-op as for people like me who now have modern hardware, it would be great to play PD3 with no matchmaking delays or risk that it puts you in the wrong server region/ bad ping.
@@thefallencogI play single player tarkov and it’s on my local machine. It does not at all melt my PC at all. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
Yeah... Payday 2 with better graphics the QoL, continue the story and just more perks, guns and huge ass collection of customation stuff for infamy. You'd think it would be an easy slam dunk but, yeah, we got this lmao.
This is what happens when you switch to unreal engine. The game runs like ass and it takes forever to implement features you had 10 years ago in the old game. 😊
I like the idea to slow it down a little more, late pd2 was a little ridiculous if you just wanted a semi-realistic heisting experience, the execution in pd3 was just godawful
I played the PC beta tests on Payday 2 way back and then not only the Steam release but also the PS4 release which I stuck with until shortly after a Halloween event. I got sick of the supposed QoL patches nerfing us players and beefing up the enemies. Remember there was a time where everybody playing enjoyed playing and grinding out our levels and for masks, etc then there was that one update that everybody hated and then most people left because it was no longer fun and we all wondered "What the heck is WRONG with those Swedes? Why would they decide to make the game less fun?" Well, Starbreeze then f'd up on their Walking Dead game and we all knew that it was over for them. I think they must enjoy psychologically building us players up, then goofing the games up on purpose to see how many players get angry and quit. Too bad. The games they made could have been legendary if crafted by some other developer team, maybe it is a Swedish thing.
Starbreeze was always known for making awful financial decisions, and they could only milk their lightning in a bottle for so long... Oh well, the memories.
I wouldn't blame Starbreeze, I think this one is firmly on Overkill. They repeatedly kneecapped Payday 2 against the wishes of players (Goldfarb was basically a *villain* in the community while he was around), put Walking Dead out basically to die for a cup of coffee before abandoning it, and botched the entire development of Payday 3. Overkill is on a hat trick of failure.
@@Kant3n Overkill does not exist anymore, it hasn't existed since 2015. Since then it's just a fancy name that was used every now and then in regards to PAYDAY 2, whether it was to keep up the illusion that the game is not fully taken over by SBZ or whatever other manipulative strats they wanted to use. Everything after 2015 is purely done by Starbreeze, including updates to PD2 and everything else, this includes the Walking Dead game which essentially was our early preview for PAYDAY 3 and also the game that they reuse content from in, again, PAYDAY 3. Goldfarb was regarded as a villain by people who didn't understand his vision of the game or because he was constantly choked down by Starbreeze and newcomers to the series. After the other devs left and went on to make GTFO, the same pattern happens where the devs want to prioritize their vision the most. You literally could see and listen to what he wants to do with the future of the game before it released by looking up interviews either on youtube or news outlets, if you didn't agree with it then you just wouldn't buy it, but oh boy people bought it because that's what the fans wanted. Goldfarb wanted to make the game grounded and have it require player skill and solid teamwork in order to play which gave PAYDAY it's own identity. Like it or not, his influence alongside other Overkill devs at the time shaped the very foundations and levels of PAYDAY 2 and it's literally what people love about the game until it became corrupted with diablo-like gameplay, perk decks, power fantasy and horrendeous balance (or lack thereof). You were never meant to do anything alone and required a team. It essentially became a very bland horde shooter and it's only redeeming factor were the crossovers, stupid goofy things like the spoon or stupid masks etc. but even today people still love to play the original 2013-2015 heists or even play complete game overhauls that restore original Goldfarb-era features of the game that were buried or made deliberately unusable by Starbreeze within the code because they didn't understand the systems. The real problem is lack of passion. The only people that had passion for the game were the original Overkill devs (excluding Almir) and Goldfarb. They knew which direction to take the game in and were heading in said direction since day 1, but it very much was just the community misunderstanding everything and wanting the game to be something else. The continued development of PAYDAY 2 and eventual release of PAYDAY 3 was done not out of choice but because that was SBZ's only way of staying afloat amidst bad business choices and near bankrupcy.
@sokolov49 Starbreeze is guaranteed to go bankrupt at this point. With their payday 3 dev crew being gutted for Project Baxter and the recent layoffs, there is no hope for this game anymore.
the tragedy was that the devs had all the time of development during the payday 2 dlc milking period and wasted it on smoking the meth the crew brew in the hideout. shit, if anything, the devs took their own material too serious and became robbers themselves.
The kicker of turnaround stories like No Mans Sky and Rainbiw 6 Siege, is that they give false hope. They were, and are, the exception that proves the rule. Taking advantage of your playerbase, scaring away talent, corporate missmanagment, and releasing half-baked products with fixes and content 'on the roadmap'. Corporations are not your friends.
@@Evolution_Kills I'm still very perplexed over people constantly saying that Cyberpunk 2077 "redeemed" itself like No Man's Sky just because they fixed some bugs (not all), contracted someone to do an anime and released a paid DLC. That's nowhere near the effort No Man's Sky team pulled to lift their game out of negativity. Just shows how much marketing makes up for effort.
I swear to god I've been saying this since Cyberpunk 2077 came out and when Internet Historian made that Video on No man's Sky's comeback. I've been saying for years that No man's Sky taught corporations the wrong lesson. Rather than actually commit to fixing and supporting a not so successful game with consistent content,they took the lesson that you can lie to your consumers and sell a blatant lie of a video game and then say "don't worry,we'll fix it." And then stay radio silent until the game eventually withers and dies on its own. No man's Sky legitimately is the exception because if they didn't fix their game they would've been burned at the stake as Pariahs of the gaming industry forever. But then look at how many broken lies of a games we've gotten from Bigger studios like Marvels Avengers/Suicide Squad kills the Justice league/anthem where strung along consumers after big promises like Anthem 2.0 or years of support for Avengers or 13 braniacs in SSKTJL. Cyberpunk 2077 doesn't even have actual clothing stores/Tattoo parlors/Jewelry stores after this many years and updates
I didn’t play Payday 2, but was interested in this sequel in the series given the dedicated playerbase for Payday 2. What I found was a confusing mess of a game. It wasn’t the bugs that bothered me so much as the weird, convoluted progression system. My friends played it briefly, maybe for a week or two, then lost interest when we started to realize what the progression system entailed. We moved on to other games and never came back.
@@loganreed23 Yep. I played Cyberpunk 2077 on release on PC and it was pretty solid on that platform. Was a 8/10, elevated to 10/10 with the updates and DLC. Initial console releases were atrocious and the ratings for those platforms were justified. No Man's Sky's biggest issue was the out of control hype train setting everyone's expectations wildly out of proportion as well as promised features that didn't make it into the game. I didn't play it on launch and what made me eventually play was posts from people who bought it on a whim not knowing about any of the marketing. Whenever I just need to relax, I play No Man's Sky. I have *some* respect for Hello Games when it comes to their content updates for No Man's Sky. I expect they will do much better when they release their next game (which I will not pre-order, I never pre-order).
Unfortunately left out of this video was that half the devs were removed from Payday 3 to focus on their other live service game they are currently developing and another half of the half we had left are now being pulled to PUBG because Starbreeze is now collabing with them to make a brand new mode based on Payday so theres barely any developers left on Payday 3 and all their scheduled plans/fixes/updates had been pushed from November/December to sometime in 2025.
If Payday 3 was profitable and a worthwhile product, Devs wouldn't be getting removed from it. What you said further proved the point of those whole Video.
These guys missed the easiest lay -up of their life. Absolutely tragic failure and a phenomenal example of how utterly terrible the mainstream gaming scene is right now
On the scale of bad decisions though it's still not going to break the top 10. It's not anywhere near as bad as other mishap decisions in the game industry like Diablo Immortal, Valve's Artifact game, Suicide Squad, Gotham Knights, etc.
@@_gungrave_6802 And this here directly supports his statement. How bad was Payday 3 handled? And still most gamers don't even know about it, because their were so many even bigger S+=Tshows! In a healthy industry, this would have been top news for weeks, every gamer would have read or heard about it, if they cared about the game or not. Today, it's maybe a footnote to people, except those who are actually involved in the franchise.
Pd2 wasn't an accident. Talented people worked on that game and most of them left for the better. Now the same people are the ones that developed GTFO and that will deliver Den of Wolves. Payday isn't dead, but it isn't at starbreeze anymore. What I mean is that Den of Wolves will be the new payday, and I'm sure of that.
PAYDAY 2 wasn't *accidentally* a good game. It was a good game. It was developed by a completely seperate dev team from ground up even after being joined with Starbreeze, they disbanded in 2015. After that, the game fully belonged to Starbreeze and then they started ruining it completely with their touch, much like the Walking Dead game or PAYDAY 3. They just don't have passion like OVERKILL had.
KF3 made me lose hype before it even released, PD3 at least has elements that I actually enjoy that still gets me coming back to play more despite its issues.
@@thefallencog Instead of the pick-your-own playstyle of perks and choose whatever character you want to play, they're going for the hero shooter approach and locking perks to certain characters. You can't play Foster and be a medic as he's tied to the new commando hero gimmick. Really shitty design choice.
If Payday 3 does have a massive turnaround I don't think it'll be for a long time. No Man's Sky and Rainbow Six Siege had massive turnarounds is that they had no real competition. If you wanted a game like those you had no real other options while Payday 3 is competing with Payday 2 and that is a very high bar.
@@kobra6660I doubt remastering PD:TH would be any more popular than current PD3 due to the community surrounding PD:TH is already tiny compared to PD2's similar size to PD3's playerbase.
should make a gta but in prison . but spilt into 3 character types. if prisoner . then you are in prison doing stuff. you can also be CO and be outside in a huge map; doing cop quests; picking up more criminals; etc. and you can also be a lawyer. so you would have the lawyer take on cases ; meet people; go to their houses get info; etc, but many times when traveling; you'll get side tracked with more requests ; or getting robbed; or being ran off the road cause you sent "some dudes homie" to 20 years in prison LOL. i think this could work!
"We'll see if Year 2 marks a return to form" Sadly not likely with upper management further skeletonizing the crew and splitting the remaining dev team across two equally tone-deaf projects: the PUBG crossover and 'Baxter' - the DnD IP!
Its simply cheaper to work with a third party than to buy servers and manage them. Servers can be quite expensive in the long run vs just renting some from a third party.
@@_gungrave_6802Yes it is cheaper in the long run if no problems arise with the provider, but as we can see, the issues with the server could not be fixed for quite some time at launch and the payday devs could only sit back and wait for it to be resolved on the other side. Players do not know about the third party provider, so of course the blame on servers will fall on the pd devs. All those risks and issues just for going the cheaper route, nice.
Everything requires some kind of trade-off. Sure, you can run the servers yourself, but then you gotta hire additional network people, hire additional engineers, either host the hardware yourself or spend a fortune to have someone like Amazon or Microsoft to do it. Everything has a cost
Before watching the whole video I have to blame Payday 3's failure on the fact that Payday 2 was basically the second and third game all in one. Overkill released enough content for Payday 2 to where they could have just made a third game far earlier than what we ended up with. As a result Payday 3 just suffered imensely which coupled with Overkill's piss poor financial woes/decisions and it makes things far worse.
that isnt the main reason of failure though, the fact that payday 3 also sucked a lot helped, always online, bad story, new characters are all worse than payday 2 ones, servers going down on launch week constantly meaning you cant play at all, the challenge based progression system where you can't progress at all if you dont do challenges the heists having wifi bubbles where you have to sit in the same spot making the game more unfun, the heist map design being outsourced making them awful, being more expensive than payday 2 while the dlcs have worse value, bad optimization, the armor system needing you to collect armor from the enemies you kill and depleting overtime meaning you have to beat heists quickly and heist planning being removed for no reason but lazyness. It's all written on a huge sign why this game failed the lack of content is just the cherry on the piss cake and im sure theres people who can list 50 more issues with the game like the enemy design being horrible that you'd have to make a whole video to explain.
@@marlon.8051 Many of those issues stem from the fact that they made a lot of bad decisions leading into Payday 3 that seriously hurt its development cycle. They could have avoided all of it by just working with the same engine as Payday 2 while being able to reuse a lot of code. The game on the same engine likely wouldn't be as successful as Payday 2 but at least it would have been a hell of a lot better than the Payday 3 we actually got. Also going balls deep into the live service shit is another huge negative factor. Games like that lack a serious amount of polish as their goal is profit rather than providing a quality product.
An engine upgrade was something Payday desperately needed. Most of the technical issues in PD2, especially related to stealth, are all parts of trying to brute force features into an engine that was never made to handle them. Starbreeze had all the money and time in the world to make sure PD3 delivers on all of the core improvements we wanted out of the game, even if we're only getting a handful of heists to start with. Instead they gave us worse versions of old features, greatly reduced heißt complexity, and standing in circles fucking hacking the wifi
I really don't want to be unfair to them. But have they had any success outside of Payday 1 and 2? I remember Payday 2 even having its fair share of controversies. Did they just get lucky?
That's a bit complicated, because of what "they" could be referring to. Short version is that Starbreeze as a company has had plenty of successes, but they've changed staff lots of times. Long version below: Starbreeze have always been ok as a publisher. They published Dead By Daylight _(though BHVR bought their independence later)_ and also invested in great projects like the System Shock remake, Psychonauts 2 and Roboquest. There's plenty of failures amongst that too, but it's not a bad record. As a developer, SBZ has had multiple generations of staff. The Riddick guys became MachineGames _(responsible for the Wolfenstein reboot and the recent Indiana Jones game)_ and the Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons crew became Hazelight Studios. _(responsible for A Way Out & It Takes Two)_ Both were really successful, before and after leaving. Overkill's devs came after those guys. To cut a long story short, Overkill's success was thanks to a dream team, which fell apart because Bo Andersson sucks. He was the main driver of the PD2 controversies you mention and his decisions are also the main reason OVK's The Walking Dead failed. Some of those older devs responsible for classic Payday's success now work at 10 Chambers. _(responsible for GTFO and the upcoming Den of Wolves)_ Bo Andersson is also no longer at SBZ. *Modern SBZ has pretty much only made Payday 3.* There's been so much staff turnover over the years that it'd be iffy to call them the same team that made 2, especially with the Game Director position changing so often. There are some Overkill veterans still left- Most significantly IMO, Ilija Petrovic, though not at SBZ, was contracted to work on some of 3's postlaunch heists like Diamond District. But they're the exception that proves the rule, most other developers have been relatively new to the company and franchise.
@@ectotrix7399 I'm not sure I completely agree. Making a game is very hard, sure. But the last couple of years have been amazing for gaming, especially if you're into Indie stuff like me.
@@lordvonsteiner2452 Indie games don't try to go for full accessibility, crossovers and whatnot, they just are what they are while being developed by people that have actual passion and love to play their own game. Most modern games today try to go for accessibility and not the 'i dont have an arm' type, more like yellow paint, obnoxious waypoints, brainless grinding, constant rewards for little effort etc. which is why a lot of games feel boring or 'the same'. Publishers behind big-name titles are simply afraid that gamers will run away as soon as a game demands some effort from the player in order to finish a level or complete a task etc. so they go all out on making sure that everyone will buy their game and will play their game by putting in as much accessibility as possible. There's also the whole low quality of writing in games for the sake of pushing politics but I won't get into that, but it is still a factor in all of this as well. Half-Life 2 has gone on free 2 keep promotion in November, a 2004 game. In most publisher / developer's eyes, that game is extremely outdated. But gamers who chose to try it out for their first time have been very much blown away by it, I could see a lot of new videos popping up on TH-cam which highlighted their favorite moments or puzzles, it was nice to watch. The reason why I'm bringing this up is because unlike modern games, Half-Life 2 tries to invisibly nudge players towards puzzle solutions to help them feel clever for example.
I'm still watching the video but I want to thank your team for continuously providing content like these! I've been watching since the Star Wars 1313 video and has always appreciated the effort you guys put in your videos. More power to you all!
@@argoniantuncboyacyan1780 Because they were paid to do it. Starbreeze is pulling every string to dig a deeper grave for the series if it means it'll make people buy their product.
If this game does a Payday 2..... It is going to die, come back a year later with only PC updates (I tell Prinny it is going to be something lame like Payday 3: Reloaded); they are going to untether the crossplay; blame the consoles for "bottlenecking the process" and stop updating console. THAN 3 years later console will get a "Payday 3: Reloaded console edition" that has all the PC stuff.... on the next generation of systems
Feel like the studio got absolutely destroyed by trying to release that Walking Dead game that was out for a day before being pulled and fully refunded, that they just had to release PD3 half-baked and half-assed to try to recoup some of the losses.
Not just the Walking Dead game. They bought out a bunch of crossover licenses to use in PD2 at the same time. PAYDAY 3 also reuses quite a bunch of assets from the Walking Dead game, can't blame them if no one can access the game anymore, am I right?
I really enjoyed Payday 2, but I didn't even know that a third installment had been released. Crime Boss: Rockay City seems to have done a better job at carrying over the core feeling of Payday.
I remember my and 8 of my mates were in an Xbox party downloading Payday 3 waiting for the minute it came live, the moment we launched it and the game asked us to register on a completely different website in order to play, we all uninstalled it and never touched it again...
I remember when I played PD3 early* due to preordering Gold Edition and then didn't have to sign up yo Nebula as I had already done it 2 years prior when they first introduced it to PD2. I get if you don't want your data in the hands of SBZ or whatever but I feel like if you give up at having to make an account where it saves your cloud data you maybe shouldn't be playing modern game releases in general. No offense, of course, but it's not like other sites are already selling your data anyways so making a Nebula account makes no difference.
@@Metal_InvitineYeah, see...no. This type of thinking is what leads to Road Blocks with people asking "papers, please". Why should you care, you already had to get a License to drive...so why should you care about having to show it at random authoritarian check points?
You know it sucks when the guy who played a major role in the comically large spoon being added as a weapon, aka RussianBadger also refuses to play it.
MarioInATopHat was technically the progenitor of the Comically Large Spoon, Badger was the catalyst of bullying the Payday devs to add the Unusually Humongous Utensil.
This is a very disingenuous and debunked talking point. It is widely known that PD2 has a botting problem which inherintly increases the player counts. On top of that, over 95% of the PD2 player base is on PC. Starbreeze confirmed in their quarterly reports to investors that for PD3, under 10% of the player base is on PC and the game has over 300k concurrent players per month. The game simply isn't close to dead and has more players overall than PD2
The Reddit is actually full of doomposting that doesn't add any new info that we don't already know. If people don't like PD3, that's valid. The game has issues. But if you enjoy PD3 despite its issues, you should be allowed to enjoy it. I take issue when people bash others for liking PD3 or still wanting to stick with the game despite the situation the game and SBZ are currently in.
Well since the definition of tragedy is simply "a disastrous event", it can still be a tragedy even though it is self inflicted. That is if you believe Merriam Webster.
Classically thats what tragedies are, theyre so tragic precisely because theyre so avoidable and self inflicted, like in classic greek tragedies for instance almost always balancing around hubris and character flaws
After what they did to Payday 2 with the insane amounts of subpar DLC and loot vaults and skins I feel zero remorse for the flop of Payday 3. Never bought 3 never will.
Agree. I loved Payday 2, played it until they ruined it with loot boxes. When I heard P3 was in development I wish listed it and waited for release. The initial reviews were crap so I removed it from my wishlist and moved on. Why play crap heist game when you can ROCK AND STONE!
@@steampunkskunk3638 they ruined it with loot boxes? it's never took off and they make it so easy to get skin that most of it doesn't have much value, what are you talking about?
No damage has been done. Payday 3 might be the only game on the market that gets compared to it. Hoping for a game to get better over time kinda always existed
Nah, it's the early access model which cemented the "Release now; fix maybe later" mindset. NMS is just a story of hope that, at worst, has instilled a sense of sunk cost fallacy in fundamentally flawed projects.
@@jondoe5937 The model that No Man' Sky pioneered isn't "release now, fix later" it's "release now, fix never" since it's still missing a lot of the features it was advertised with and it's still an incredibly janky, badly designed and overall boring experience, much like Cyberpunk 2077, Sea of Thieves, Payday 3, etc. This model works by setting the bar so low at launch that every significant improvement that comes after that is seen as a major milestone, until eventually you end up with a game that is mediocre at best but hailed as a masterpiece just because it's come a long way from what it was on release, even though it hasn't actually made good on it's pre-release promises. It misuses the concept of relativity to pray on people with low standards.
There's more than that for the game to succeed. I'd rather have hosted co-op than an offline mode I'll never use. Though for people with bad internet, I can understand the need for a proper offline mode.
I played Payday: The Heist and still play Payday 2 with several friends. One friend decided to pre-order Payday 3. I don't believe in pre-ordering games, and he kept pressuring me to get it until it released. After two weeks of complaining about the game he dropped the series entirely, and I am still glad I never bought the third game.
This video does not do any justice to any part of the game…. Big f on this video…. Missed 100% of the games life cycle, doesn’t even go into depth…. Payday3 is not a game that stands alone it is a game built on what came before, directly assisting these games together is key to understand what happened and why payday3 failed. Fun fact should have mentioned honorable stuff: The way skills worked and how that affected the game and changed payday2 forever and the evolution up to payday3 that payday3 fails horribly at. The way armor works and its evolution from the heist to payday2 and how it’s horridly done in payday3. The way dlc was handled and how it evolved the company ( mentioning only the later dlc and then not mentioning how bad that effected the stability of the game ontop of the loss of dlc due to copyright and ownership loss… ) to how they sell and how they do dlc, very very very important 20-1hour long section of in depth content right there. You could talk about civilians and how they were fleshed out and made a worthless in payday3 almost, this could include the loss of money evolution, the moving and ability usage of civilians through the life of payday. You could mention how events changed payday2 forever better but were so limited and only ever showed up so few times and then were gone forever, and the evolution of events is to be not in game in payday3, they are external you can’t join or know about events in game you have to go external to understand how to participate. You could go into depth on how masks worked and how that evolved and changed, could add in weapon customization turning from nothing to the best to the worst, including cosmetics for weapons being horridly done in payday3. You could go into depth on the achievements and the history of it, at least 30min segment, for payday3 it’s about 10min of just yea there is none it’s not worth it. You could actually go into depth on singleplayer and talk about how key the bot ai is to the payday community. You could go into depth upon the epic games crossplay update and how that forever changed and shifted payday into what it is today…. You can go into depth on the loot boxes and how the community won this, this itself has a major pact as to why we don’t have microtransactions yet in payday3. There is a lot to payday, and if you actually want to know why payday3 failed, the heist is a good start but not very needed, you can think of it as a indie project that became payday2 which lived a full life and had a FINISH! Then once you learn what payday2 is life history and all that fun stuff, look at payday3 and see everything horridly wrong with it. Payday3 is a playable game that could be good in a vacuum, where payday2 will forever be the better game and will change how you look at payday3 and make you understand why payday3 is failing.
I disagree with the Heists, I find most of them enjoyable and replayable, but as for the enemies, 100% agree. The game needs its AI completely redone as well as its spawngroups and spawnrates as OVK is way too easy.
@@Metal_Invitine I found sitting in open circles boring. But yeah a lot of the enemies lack the intensity they had in 2, cloakers dont hide and ambush, snipers take 7 seconds to even start shooting at you, tasers are awful as they now need to switch from a rifle to tase. Also tasers and cloakers solo spawn near the heisters so easy to dispatch, the new drone operator is just a nuisance instead of a threat and cant even protect themselves.
When publishers hold all the rights and outway development cost by a large large margin this dog & pony show will continue to happen. All the wrong people in all the right positions fuck the whole system and the same people lose everytime.
Thankfully, the real talent behind the studio went on to found MachineGames and with the exception of Youngblood, they've done very well in retaining the spirt of the Riddick games and The Darkness.
Writing was kind of on the wall when one of the founding brothers left. The one that left was clearly the smart one of the two since he wanted to make smaller projects as a way of diversifying the company. The one that stayed was the dumb one who lacked financial sense and wanted to make big expensive projects all of which as we know have failed miserably. Imagine how differently things would be if the smart one stayed and the dumb one left.
@@_gungrave_6802 The smart one is also the person who shaped PAYDAY 2 as a game, or at least had a lot of influence and prevented the game from getting ruined for as long as he remained.. until 2015.
I just want to say as someone who has followed PAYDAY 3 every step of the way, usually these sorts of videos are incredibly ignorant or full of incorrect information. This was not one of them. This was incredibly well-researched and accurate while being presented in a really compelling and entertaining way, so hats off to you guys.
The fact is that a lot of gamers do not have the newest PC available, and releasing a very demanding, expensive to buy sequel to a very low-spec game is asking for failure. This has happened to an indie roguelite that I liked. The first game still gets 10x more players than the sequel.
The narrator for this channel makes me feel like I am watching a “How it’s Made” video or an old school History Channel doc. I see an upload, click, and I am immediately hooked.
The new button inputs on controller for PD3 screwed me over on a stealth. My muscle memory for PD2 kicked in and I threw a grenade instead of packing a duffle bag….
I already had a Nebula account prior to PD3 releasing, so I never had to deal with spending 5 minutes to make an account to play a game similar to most modern games that do the exact same thing. I understand it's annoying or a worry about data, but this is just what modern game companies do now. And it really isn't that bad outside of being a mild inconvience to sign up to their website that hosts your cloud save across all platforms for PD3.
Imagine having one of your games in your catalogue be a core pillar of the co-op shooter genre next to Left 4 Dead and Deep Rock Galactic and then your next title does so poorly after launch that it gets beat out by Back 4 Blood (the worst co-op shooter ever made) and the garden/graveyard ops mode in Plants vs Zombies Garden Warfare 2 (a kids game), both of which coming out 2 and 7 years respectively before your game. What a fall from grace.
The Greatest memory playing video games with my friends was with Payday the Heist and Payday 2 but we saw the cracks in the foundation during Payday 2 console launch and updates
My top 5 reasons it failed and still is down in the sewer: - awful balancing, action is not viable anymore, not enough ammo without skillset grinding, skills themselves aren´t balanced TO THIS DAY - not enough content, no idea how the content creation pipeline is for this game, but my god, it doesn´t even have 25% of payday 2´s content. even without pd2 dlc´s it had less content TO THIS DAY than payday 2 did 1 year after launch. - stealth is WAY better, but who cares if most play action and end up with a more boring soundtrack. people underestimate the massbody piles of mayhem and banger soundtrack and how it changed the entire flow, vibe and pacing of the game alone - im burned out on fcking carrying bags. i can not stand it anymore. im burned out on payday 2. payday 3 was like payda 2.5- not 2.5+ - while low fps were common due to diesel engines handling of many bodies, framepacing was smooth, payday 3 stutters like crazy due to unreal stutter engine, even to this day it can occur and the raised system requirements and bad pricing meant, most of the playerbase couldnt even run it BEFORE WAVES of cops piled up, once that happens, game over even on my higher end system back in 2022. and dont get me starte on unlocking attachments for guns. URGH HOW ANNOYING. already was bad in pd2, now its even WORSE.and they got rid of bain for some uninteresting female quota character with no character and boring dialogue.
There's barely any prominent Payday 3 content creators doing anything about Payday 3 anymore. Kknowley is on an up-and-down roller coaster on whether or not he has faith with the devs, RussianBadger and Grouse wouldn't touch it, and GeneralMcBadass just... Quit on Payday content in general.
Back when PD2 was new, my friend would host gaming parties and PD2 was always one of the first games that would be played. Eventually my friend got tired of PD2 when loot boxes were added. My friend saw the loot boxes as an insult, beside we had started moving towards other titles like DOTA 2, Planetary Annihilation: Titans, SIns: Rebellion. Plus life changes eventuall pried the group apart.
The funny thing is I actually really like Payday 3's gameplay over 2. The cops actually have behaviours and formations that feel like they're cops (like their behaviour changes if you have a human shield) compared to PD2's glorified zombies with guns. The attrition based economy also makes heists feel like sieges where you have to conserve armour, health and ammo over PD2's wading in half-cocked and hipfiring. Of course this doesn't excuse the faults of the game that surrounds the gameplay. The limited replayability and customisation most notably for me. And a mixed bag from the server based netcode as while is has caused massive outages it also helps tackle one of PD2's biggest problems, cheating, by allowing servers to act as a verification step to reduce the ease of cheating.
I agree, but the enemy AI still needs improvements when in firefights. They're pretty stunted at times and sometimes just stare at you instead of shooting.
@Metal_Invitine I think that's to alleviate an issue with high difficulty PD2 gameplay where you'll come out of cover and immediately get gunned down by every cop in sight so that pause is probably to simulate a reaction time, or the AI has scripted behaviour that happens in a queue like they can't do X if condition Y is happening but leads to situations where enemies don't attack when they should. Still beats PD2 AI though. PD3 cops actually take cover, form up and push. PD2 cops just meander in your general direction and think standing in the open is a good position.
Payday 3 is fun but even with all the updates its progression system is still trash. You only get XP if you finish a match. So if you spend an hour on a heist and get dropped you just lose all that time. I can't up grade my desert eagle because i keep getting match errors kicking me when i'm solo. And when i play with friends we go quiet so my guns also upgrade too slow. Upgrading weapons is just way too tedious.
So how about that Restoration Mod, huh?! It really, _really_ seems like something the developers should pay attention to if they’re interested in pulling their current money sink out of the death spiral it appears to be in…
i can get over how companies hear it over and over from us gamers that hey this is not working then do all type of other stuff we didnt ask for then blame us for their failure.
Starbreeze are morons. They focused on multiplayer without understanding the had a solid gameplay loop that with standard AI, they could have had a solid single player campaign. Instead they have multiplayer/Co-op trash to excuse a premium price point. It's GTA Online heists minus the fun parts. If they are deemed AAA, I can't wait for their downfall with the rest in this current industry collapse. Just like every cycle before, the indies and bedroom coders will fill their places. Just like previous collapses of the videogame industry, the indies will step up, and some of them will be the next villains to fall. Look at CDPR as a current (2024/25) example.
During the current steam winter sale Payday 3 costs 15 € and buying all DLC would cost 90 €. This should make it clear where the developers priorities mainly lie :>
They completely gutted the payday 2 power fantasy. Gone was crazy armor gating frantic near invincible builds, crazy dodge ninjas, and hyper specialized turret builds. And in its place we got 10% to damage here, 10% to movement speed there. What good are new content drops and progression tweaks when the characters feel so boring to play i wouldn't want to use them or progress in the first place. THAT is payday 3s core issue, and im amazed it wasn't discussed in this video, but i suppose thats what you get from generic video essayist channels spurting out content on topics they dont care about to hit their video targets and cash in on the "juicy" stories
As someone who came in to the payday franchise with the 3rd one, I am also playing Payday 2 lol. It never interested me before but a friend was promoted to do a Payday 3 stream and literally no one in our group had played before. Had a good time and I had been following alot of the controversy of the game even though I didnt play at the time so I decided to check out Payday 2 and I am having a blast with it, bought some cool skins and dlc, level 53 or something now working my way though career while sometimes playing some offline missions. I dont play online as I dont want to ruin more pro players experience lol.
Hey, as long as you don't play the highest difficulty (Death Sentence), don't worry about the "pro players experience", you are good. But where you are right is that stealth public can be annoying for everyone involved so doing that solo or with friends is usually better.
I actually really liked how stealth gameplay evolved in 3. I never liked stealth in 1 and 2, but stealth in 3 was actually fun to play. But server issue droped me out, and there are too many games to play nowdays
🔥 UFL is here! ⚽ Play now on PlayStation 5, PlayStation 5 Pro & Xbox Series X|S: ufl.link/GVMERS Play UFL NOW!
No dude... Just no. 😑
no. piss off.
@@keijijohnson9754 you can donate 10k or more in this case to enjoy the content and keep the channel going, nothing is free
@rdis87 Except watching the videos and letting the ads play out letting TH-cam Premium do all the work. 😑
@@rdis87they didn't get paid 10k for that ad, cope harder.
in payday 2 every lobby has a host, meaning one of the player's computers acts as the server for the entire lobby, which generally worked really well even on hardware from 2012
so the idea that hosting a solo server for payday 3 would be "too demanding" for modern hardware is baffling
Most people who play PD3 shockingly don't use modern hardware, I would know as I didn't initially and complained about how bad the game ran and how resource intensive solo mode was compared to SBZ servers. I think it's fair to a degree to assume most people don't wanna buy a 2000 dollar gaming PC just so PD3 runs well as to why SBZ opted to use servers rather than peer2peer. I think PD3 would improve with hosted peer2peer co-op as for people like me who now have modern hardware, it would be great to play PD3 with no matchmaking delays or risk that it puts you in the wrong server region/ bad ping.
"even on hardware from 2012" This system worked in the 90s, let alone 2012
You can host solo games on your computer in 3, its been like that for ages.
You just can't peer to peer in 3 anymore
@@thefallencogI play single player tarkov and it’s on my local machine. It does not at all melt my PC at all. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
@@thefallencog then how community made Offline tarkov could existed?
All they had to do was remake Payday 2 with better graphics and QoL features..
Yeah... Payday 2 with better graphics the QoL, continue the story and just more perks, guns and huge ass collection of customation stuff for infamy. You'd think it would be an easy slam dunk but, yeah, we got this lmao.
payday 1 needs a remake more nobody ever talks about it and not alot of videos about it
This is what happens when you switch to unreal engine. The game runs like ass and it takes forever to implement features you had 10 years ago in the old game. 😊
I like the idea to slow it down a little more, late pd2 was a little ridiculous if you just wanted a semi-realistic heisting experience, the execution in pd3 was just godawful
they did lol, thats why its ass
anyone who played Payday around 2015, knew this was probably going to happen. a disaster 10 years in the making.
crimefest 2015 opening up with pay to win lootbox skins was just an eye opening sh**-show. still leaves a bad taste in my mouth after all this time
i expected payday 3 to be bad, just not this bad.
This, i started around when the COP dlc dropped, and it was a ride through the years alright.
I played the PC beta tests on Payday 2 way back and then not only the Steam release but also the PS4 release which I stuck with until shortly after a Halloween event. I got sick of the supposed QoL patches nerfing us players and beefing up the enemies. Remember there was a time where everybody playing enjoyed playing and grinding out our levels and for masks, etc then there was that one update that everybody hated and then most people left because it was no longer fun and we all wondered "What the heck is WRONG with those Swedes? Why would they decide to make the game less fun?" Well, Starbreeze then f'd up on their Walking Dead game and we all knew that it was over for them. I think they must enjoy psychologically building us players up, then goofing the games up on purpose to see how many players get angry and quit. Too bad. The games they made could have been legendary if crafted by some other developer team, maybe it is a Swedish thing.
@Polygraph2131 is it really that bad? Am I the only one who have fun with Payday 3 as a Payday 2 player???
Starbreeze was always known for making awful financial decisions, and they could only milk their lightning in a bottle for so long... Oh well, the memories.
I wouldn't blame Starbreeze, I think this one is firmly on Overkill. They repeatedly kneecapped Payday 2 against the wishes of players (Goldfarb was basically a *villain* in the community while he was around), put Walking Dead out basically to die for a cup of coffee before abandoning it, and botched the entire development of Payday 3.
Overkill is on a hat trick of failure.
@@Kant3n
Overkill does not exist anymore, it hasn't existed since 2015. Since then it's just a fancy name that was used every now and then in regards to PAYDAY 2, whether it was to keep up the illusion that the game is not fully taken over by SBZ or whatever other manipulative strats they wanted to use.
Everything after 2015 is purely done by Starbreeze, including updates to PD2 and everything else, this includes the Walking Dead game which essentially was our early preview for PAYDAY 3 and also the game that they reuse content from in, again, PAYDAY 3.
Goldfarb was regarded as a villain by people who didn't understand his vision of the game or because he was constantly choked down by Starbreeze and newcomers to the series. After the other devs left and went on to make GTFO, the same pattern happens where the devs want to prioritize their vision the most.
You literally could see and listen to what he wants to do with the future of the game before it released by looking up interviews either on youtube or news outlets, if you didn't agree with it then you just wouldn't buy it, but oh boy people bought it because that's what the fans wanted.
Goldfarb wanted to make the game grounded and have it require player skill and solid teamwork in order to play which gave PAYDAY it's own identity. Like it or not, his influence alongside other Overkill devs at the time shaped the very foundations and levels of PAYDAY 2 and it's literally what people love about the game until it became corrupted with diablo-like gameplay, perk decks, power fantasy and horrendeous balance (or lack thereof). You were never meant to do anything alone and required a team.
It essentially became a very bland horde shooter and it's only redeeming factor were the crossovers, stupid goofy things like the spoon or stupid masks etc. but even today people still love to play the original 2013-2015 heists or even play complete game overhauls that restore original Goldfarb-era features of the game that were buried or made deliberately unusable by Starbreeze within the code because they didn't understand the systems.
The real problem is lack of passion. The only people that had passion for the game were the original Overkill devs (excluding Almir) and Goldfarb. They knew which direction to take the game in and were heading in said direction since day 1, but it very much was just the community misunderstanding everything and wanting the game to be something else.
The continued development of PAYDAY 2 and eventual release of PAYDAY 3 was done not out of choice but because that was SBZ's only way of staying afloat amidst bad business choices and near bankrupcy.
@sokolov49
Starbreeze is guaranteed to go bankrupt at this point. With their payday 3 dev crew being gutted for Project Baxter and the recent layoffs, there is no hope for this game anymore.
@@NotUp2Much Was there any hope at all after what was going on since 2016, or was it Stockholm Syndrome?
the tragedy was that the devs had all the time of development during the payday 2 dlc milking period and wasted it on smoking the meth the crew brew in the hideout. shit, if anything, the devs took their own material too serious and became robbers themselves.
Uh, they what???
What is "the meth the crew brew"?
@@Mymmylit’s a payday 2 reference in a payday 3 video, sheesh
It’s just a good joke
@@themastter8 i'm not a PAYDAY fan, i didn't know.
In fairness, nothing beats speedrunning first world bank in Payday 1.
The kicker of turnaround stories like No Mans Sky and Rainbiw 6 Siege, is that they give false hope. They were, and are, the exception that proves the rule. Taking advantage of your playerbase, scaring away talent, corporate missmanagment, and releasing half-baked products with fixes and content 'on the roadmap'.
Corporations are not your friends.
@@Evolution_Kills I'm still very perplexed over people constantly saying that Cyberpunk 2077 "redeemed" itself like No Man's Sky just because they fixed some bugs (not all), contracted someone to do an anime and released a paid DLC. That's nowhere near the effort No Man's Sky team pulled to lift their game out of negativity. Just shows how much marketing makes up for effort.
I swear to god I've been saying this since Cyberpunk 2077 came out and when Internet Historian made that Video on No man's Sky's comeback.
I've been saying for years that No man's Sky taught corporations the wrong lesson. Rather than actually commit to fixing and supporting a not so successful game with consistent content,they took the lesson that you can lie to your consumers and sell a blatant lie of a video game and then say "don't worry,we'll fix it." And then stay radio silent until the game eventually withers and dies on its own.
No man's Sky legitimately is the exception because if they didn't fix their game they would've been burned at the stake as Pariahs of the gaming industry forever. But then look at how many broken lies of a games we've gotten from Bigger studios like Marvels Avengers/Suicide Squad kills the Justice league/anthem where strung along consumers after big promises like Anthem 2.0 or years of support for Avengers or 13 braniacs in SSKTJL.
Cyberpunk 2077 doesn't even have actual clothing stores/Tattoo parlors/Jewelry stores after this many years and updates
I didn’t play Payday 2, but was interested in this sequel in the series given the dedicated playerbase for Payday 2. What I found was a confusing mess of a game. It wasn’t the bugs that bothered me so much as the weird, convoluted progression system. My friends played it briefly, maybe for a week or two, then lost interest when we started to realize what the progression system entailed. We moved on to other games and never came back.
@@loganreed23
Yep. I played Cyberpunk 2077 on release on PC and it was pretty solid on that platform. Was a 8/10, elevated to 10/10 with the updates and DLC. Initial console releases were atrocious and the ratings for those platforms were justified.
No Man's Sky's biggest issue was the out of control hype train setting everyone's expectations wildly out of proportion as well as promised features that didn't make it into the game. I didn't play it on launch and what made me eventually play was posts from people who bought it on a whim not knowing about any of the marketing. Whenever I just need to relax, I play No Man's Sky.
I have *some* respect for Hello Games when it comes to their content updates for No Man's Sky. I expect they will do much better when they release their next game (which I will not pre-order, I never pre-order).
@@dominiqueodom3099 ''clothing stores/Tattoo parlors/Jewelry stores'' lmao of all the things THATS what annoy you ?
Unfortunately left out of this video was that half the devs were removed from Payday 3 to focus on their other live service game they are currently developing and another half of the half we had left are now being pulled to PUBG because Starbreeze is now collabing with them to make a brand new mode based on Payday so theres barely any developers left on Payday 3 and all their scheduled plans/fixes/updates had been pushed from November/December to sometime in 2025.
So... more bad decisions
If Payday 3 was profitable and a worthwhile product, Devs wouldn't be getting removed from it. What you said further proved the point of those whole Video.
They also depend on an officially licensed Roblox game to stay afloat, as they have to somehow pay off 505 Games or they'll lose the IP.
Can't forget the leaked investor documents that report a "lowering of funding to PD3 development"
They work on dayZ too
These guys missed the easiest lay
-up of their life. Absolutely tragic failure and a phenomenal example of how utterly terrible the mainstream gaming scene is right now
On the scale of bad decisions though it's still not going to break the top 10. It's not anywhere near as bad as other mishap decisions in the game industry like Diablo Immortal, Valve's Artifact game, Suicide Squad, Gotham Knights, etc.
@@_gungrave_6802 And this here directly supports his statement. How bad was Payday 3 handled? And still most gamers don't even know about it, because their were so many even bigger S+=Tshows!
In a healthy industry, this would have been top news for weeks, every gamer would have read or heard about it, if they cared about the game or not.
Today, it's maybe a footnote to people, except those who are actually involved in the franchise.
Only ones that got heisted in Payday 3 were the people who bought the game.
Maybe, but I'm still having fun after 800 hours, though they really need to improve enemy AI. The game is too easy.
@@Metal_InvitineSame here, 1100 hours and I enjoy replaying all the heists besides Road Rage
as a payday 2 fan, i'm so gald i didn't buy payday 3
It really feels like Payday 2 was an accidentally good game and then they really tried to make a good game and failed XD
haha I've had that exact feeling!
Pd2 wasn't an accident. Talented people worked on that game and most of them left for the better. Now the same people are the ones that developed GTFO and that will deliver Den of Wolves. Payday isn't dead, but it isn't at starbreeze anymore. What I mean is that Den of Wolves will be the new payday, and I'm sure of that.
@@fabiobianciardi3987real big "bro, Anthem is gonna be the Game of the Year" vibes with that one.
Wtf is GTFO?@@fabiobianciardi3987
PAYDAY 2 wasn't *accidentally* a good game. It was a good game. It was developed by a completely seperate dev team from ground up even after being joined with Starbreeze, they disbanded in 2015.
After that, the game fully belonged to Starbreeze and then they started ruining it completely with their touch, much like the Walking Dead game or PAYDAY 3. They just don't have passion like OVERKILL had.
I’m expecting the same style of failure with Killing Floor 3.
Especially with that fucking specialist shit they just revealed.
KF3 made me lose hype before it even released, PD3 at least has elements that I actually enjoy that still gets me coming back to play more despite its issues.
You can add No More Room in Hell 2 to this pile.
Whats the problem with KF3? I've only vaguely seen things here and there about it.
@@thefallencog Instead of the pick-your-own playstyle of perks and choose whatever character you want to play, they're going for the hero shooter approach and locking perks to certain characters. You can't play Foster and be a medic as he's tied to the new commando hero gimmick. Really shitty design choice.
If Payday 3 does have a massive turnaround I don't think it'll be for a long time. No Man's Sky and Rainbow Six Siege had massive turnarounds is that they had no real competition. If you wanted a game like those you had no real other options while Payday 3 is competing with Payday 2 and that is a very high bar.
Dont forget Raid WW2, more niche than the others but it had its own turnaround not too long ago. Also the (at some point) upcoming Den of Wolves.
@@R77ification
And Crime Biss Rockay City, which is also solid.
siege and NMS had turn arounds because they game received constant updates, payday 3 will not receive many if at all.
I will never stop replying to Payday 3 Twitter saying that I can't wait until this game comes out
I'm gonna check
Bit pedantic but whatever.
@@OneGamer2EnvyThemAll Very English much wow
Impressive. Keep doing the good work.
Payday 2 is still a great game, such a shame that they ran the sequel into the ground
they sholdve just remastered the first game since it wasnt well known and is still playable and people are still playing it
@@kobra6660I doubt remastering PD:TH would be any more popular than current PD3 due to the community surrounding PD:TH is already tiny compared to PD2's similar size to PD3's playerbase.
@@Metal_Invitine True, it isn't really a game for most people as it is pretty hardcore, with enemies lowering your health quickly
@@kobra6660 It was well known at the time Steam-wise, otherwise people wouldn't be so hyped for PD2's release.
should make a gta but in prison . but spilt into 3 character types. if prisoner . then you are in prison doing stuff. you can also be CO and be outside in a huge map; doing cop quests; picking up more criminals; etc. and you can also be a lawyer. so you would have the lawyer take on cases ; meet people; go to their houses get info; etc, but many times when traveling; you'll get side tracked with more requests ; or getting robbed; or being ran off the road cause you sent "some dudes homie" to 20 years in prison LOL. i think this could work!
"We'll see if Year 2 marks a return to form"
Sadly not likely with upper management further skeletonizing the crew and splitting the remaining dev team across two equally tone-deaf projects: the PUBG crossover and 'Baxter' - the DnD IP!
Can't forget the pulled back funding revealed by the leak of investor financial reports.
rolled my eyes at third party matchmaking provider.
Developers should do things in house so they can actually fix issues
Its simply cheaper to work with a third party than to buy servers and manage them. Servers can be quite expensive in the long run vs just renting some from a third party.
@@_gungrave_6802its more expensive short term, because of the initial cost, outsourcing servers is standard practice tho
@@_gungrave_6802Yes it is cheaper in the long run if no problems arise with the provider, but as we can see, the issues with the server could not be fixed for quite some time at launch and the payday devs could only sit back and wait for it to be resolved on the other side. Players do not know about the third party provider, so of course the blame on servers will fall on the pd devs. All those risks and issues just for going the cheaper route, nice.
@@_gungrave_6802 Are they more expensive than killing your cash-cow?
Everything requires some kind of trade-off. Sure, you can run the servers yourself, but then you gotta hire additional network people, hire additional engineers, either host the hardware yourself or spend a fortune to have someone like Amazon or Microsoft to do it.
Everything has a cost
Before watching the whole video I have to blame Payday 3's failure on the fact that Payday 2 was basically the second and third game all in one. Overkill released enough content for Payday 2 to where they could have just made a third game far earlier than what we ended up with. As a result Payday 3 just suffered imensely which coupled with Overkill's piss poor financial woes/decisions and it makes things far worse.
that isnt the main reason of failure though, the fact that payday 3 also sucked a lot helped, always online, bad story, new characters are all worse than payday 2 ones, servers going down on launch week constantly meaning you cant play at all, the challenge based progression system where you can't progress at all if you dont do challenges the heists having wifi bubbles where you have to sit in the same spot making the game more unfun, the heist map design being outsourced making them awful, being more expensive than payday 2 while the dlcs have worse value, bad optimization, the armor system needing you to collect armor from the enemies you kill and depleting overtime meaning you have to beat heists quickly and heist planning being removed for no reason but lazyness. It's all written on a huge sign why this game failed the lack of content is just the cherry on the piss cake and im sure theres people who can list 50 more issues with the game like the enemy design being horrible that you'd have to make a whole video to explain.
@@marlon.8051 Many of those issues stem from the fact that they made a lot of bad decisions leading into Payday 3 that seriously hurt its development cycle. They could have avoided all of it by just working with the same engine as Payday 2 while being able to reuse a lot of code. The game on the same engine likely wouldn't be as successful as Payday 2 but at least it would have been a hell of a lot better than the Payday 3 we actually got.
Also going balls deep into the live service shit is another huge negative factor. Games like that lack a serious amount of polish as their goal is profit rather than providing a quality product.
An engine upgrade was something Payday desperately needed. Most of the technical issues in PD2, especially related to stealth, are all parts of trying to brute force features into an engine that was never made to handle them.
Starbreeze had all the money and time in the world to make sure PD3 delivers on all of the core improvements we wanted out of the game, even if we're only getting a handful of heists to start with. Instead they gave us worse versions of old features, greatly reduced heißt complexity, and standing in circles fucking hacking the wifi
I really don't want to be unfair to them. But have they had any success outside of Payday 1 and 2? I remember Payday 2 even having its fair share of controversies. Did they just get lucky?
That's a bit complicated, because of what "they" could be referring to. Short version is that Starbreeze as a company has had plenty of successes, but they've changed staff lots of times. Long version below:
Starbreeze have always been ok as a publisher. They published Dead By Daylight _(though BHVR bought their independence later)_ and also invested in great projects like the System Shock remake, Psychonauts 2 and Roboquest. There's plenty of failures amongst that too, but it's not a bad record.
As a developer, SBZ has had multiple generations of staff. The Riddick guys became MachineGames _(responsible for the Wolfenstein reboot and the recent Indiana Jones game)_ and the Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons crew became Hazelight Studios. _(responsible for A Way Out & It Takes Two)_ Both were really successful, before and after leaving. Overkill's devs came after those guys.
To cut a long story short, Overkill's success was thanks to a dream team, which fell apart because Bo Andersson sucks. He was the main driver of the PD2 controversies you mention and his decisions are also the main reason OVK's The Walking Dead failed. Some of those older devs responsible for classic Payday's success now work at 10 Chambers. _(responsible for GTFO and the upcoming Den of Wolves)_ Bo Andersson is also no longer at SBZ.
*Modern SBZ has pretty much only made Payday 3.* There's been so much staff turnover over the years that it'd be iffy to call them the same team that made 2, especially with the Game Director position changing so often. There are some Overkill veterans still left- Most significantly IMO, Ilija Petrovic, though not at SBZ, was contracted to work on some of 3's postlaunch heists like Diamond District. But they're the exception that proves the rule, most other developers have been relatively new to the company and franchise.
TBH it's hard to make a good video game in 2024. I feel like a few games only don't have fair share of controversies.
@@darthvaderreviews6926 I see, makes sense. I appreciate the write-up. I wasn't really aware of all this
@@ectotrix7399 I'm not sure I completely agree. Making a game is very hard, sure. But the last couple of years have been amazing for gaming, especially if you're into Indie stuff like me.
@@lordvonsteiner2452
Indie games don't try to go for full accessibility, crossovers and whatnot, they just are what they are while being developed by people that have actual passion and love to play their own game.
Most modern games today try to go for accessibility and not the 'i dont have an arm' type, more like yellow paint, obnoxious waypoints, brainless grinding, constant rewards for little effort etc. which is why a lot of games feel boring or 'the same'.
Publishers behind big-name titles are simply afraid that gamers will run away as soon as a game demands some effort from the player in order to finish a level or complete a task etc. so they go all out on making sure that everyone will buy their game and will play their game by putting in as much accessibility as possible.
There's also the whole low quality of writing in games for the sake of pushing politics but I won't get into that, but it is still a factor in all of this as well.
Half-Life 2 has gone on free 2 keep promotion in November, a 2004 game. In most publisher / developer's eyes, that game is extremely outdated. But gamers who chose to try it out for their first time have been very much blown away by it, I could see a lot of new videos popping up on TH-cam which highlighted their favorite moments or puzzles, it was nice to watch. The reason why I'm bringing this up is because unlike modern games, Half-Life 2 tries to invisibly nudge players towards puzzle solutions to help them feel clever for example.
I'm still watching the video but I want to thank your team for continuously providing content like these! I've been watching since the Star Wars 1313 video and has always appreciated the effort you guys put in your videos. More power to you all!
But my favorite TH-camrs said it's a great game?
The act'mama? shame n ou for loving him
@@Formidable_Glamour AngryJoe shilled it too.
@@argoniantuncboyacyan1780 Because they were paid to do it. Starbreeze is pulling every string to dig a deeper grave for the series if it means it'll make people buy their product.
No single player offline with progression. I dont care about multiplayer payday 2 had an excellent offline mode.
If this game does a Payday 2..... It is going to die, come back a year later with only PC updates (I tell Prinny it is going to be something lame like Payday 3: Reloaded); they are going to untether the crossplay; blame the consoles for "bottlenecking the process" and stop updating console. THAN 3 years later console will get a "Payday 3: Reloaded console edition" that has all the PC stuff.... on the next generation of systems
new gvmers video!
Feel like the studio got absolutely destroyed by trying to release that Walking Dead game that was out for a day before being pulled and fully refunded, that they just had to release PD3 half-baked and half-assed to try to recoup some of the losses.
We can blame the ceo at that time for it. He also spent lot of the money on a vr headset project that failed to catch on.
I don't think I even got a refund of the Walking Dead game😅
Not just the Walking Dead game. They bought out a bunch of crossover licenses to use in PD2 at the same time.
PAYDAY 3 also reuses quite a bunch of assets from the Walking Dead game, can't blame them if no one can access the game anymore, am I right?
I really enjoyed Payday 2, but I didn't even know that a third installment had been released. Crime Boss: Rockay City seems to have done a better job at carrying over the core feeling of Payday.
Crime Boss is objectively worse than PD3 currently, which I don't understand how.
i just played crime boss on console and its pretty good. it even have a offline mode and everything works. the game is way better than pd3 now days.
I remember my and 8 of my mates were in an Xbox party downloading Payday 3 waiting for the minute it came live, the moment we launched it and the game asked us to register on a completely different website in order to play, we all uninstalled it and never touched it again...
I remember when I played PD3 early* due to preordering Gold Edition and then didn't have to sign up yo Nebula as I had already done it 2 years prior when they first introduced it to PD2. I get if you don't want your data in the hands of SBZ or whatever but I feel like if you give up at having to make an account where it saves your cloud data you maybe shouldn't be playing modern game releases in general. No offense, of course, but it's not like other sites are already selling your data anyways so making a Nebula account makes no difference.
@@Metal_Invitineconsole games shouldn't require an additional sign in. That's what ur Xbox account is for
@@Metal_InvitineYeah, see...no. This type of thinking is what leads to Road Blocks with people asking "papers, please". Why should you care, you already had to get a License to drive...so why should you care about having to show it at random authoritarian check points?
@@justinlast2lastharder749video game registration leads to authoritarianism. Big fan of hyperbole, aren't you?
You know it sucks when the guy who played a major role in the comically large spoon being added as a weapon, aka RussianBadger also refuses to play it.
The game is the only reason why he blew up.
MarioInATopHat was technically the progenitor of the Comically Large Spoon, Badger was the catalyst of bullying the Payday devs to add the Unusually Humongous Utensil.
@sokolov49 Lmao that's a cope. Badger was huge long before his payday video.
Apparently Badger wants to make a video about it. As we know, he doesn't care if it's a bad or good game.
payday 3 has 1300 players playing it now on steam and payday 2 has just over 30000 players playing right now, third game is dead!
also somehow people are still playing the first game i went back to the first after the disaster of payday 3
@@kobra6660 I gave with up with payday 3 and moved on to something else.
@@kobra6660 Most still playing the first one do so for nostalgia and its much simpler gameplay. Its far more casual friendly than its sequels.
Who wants to play unreal slop?
This is a very disingenuous and debunked talking point. It is widely known that PD2 has a botting problem which inherintly increases the player counts. On top of that, over 95% of the PD2 player base is on PC. Starbreeze confirmed in their quarterly reports to investors that for PD3, under 10% of the player base is on PC and the game has over 300k concurrent players per month. The game simply isn't close to dead and has more players overall than PD2
I love Payday but this game is UNPAID DAY
😂😂
That's the worst patter I've ever heard.
Being a big fan of Payday The Hesit (120h game time), I was so sad they fumbled Payday 3.
that furry game director was just stupid and refused to listen to feedback because he had A VISION
They are delusional over at Reddit getting mad if you tell him how it is
If your value your soul then don't go anywhere near reddit
The Reddit is actually full of doomposting that doesn't add any new info that we don't already know. If people don't like PD3, that's valid. The game has issues. But if you enjoy PD3 despite its issues, you should be allowed to enjoy it. I take issue when people bash others for liking PD3 or still wanting to stick with the game despite the situation the game and SBZ are currently in.
Reddit is a hive mind, it's either all great and if you criticize something you are stupid or its all shit and if you like something you are stupid.
Eh I don't know if you can call it a tragedy. They pretty much brought it upon themselves.
Well since the definition of tragedy is simply "a disastrous event", it can still be a tragedy even though it is self inflicted.
That is if you believe Merriam Webster.
Classically thats what tragedies are, theyre so tragic precisely because theyre so avoidable and self inflicted, like in classic greek tragedies for instance almost always balancing around hubris and character flaws
After what they did to Payday 2 with the insane amounts of subpar DLC and loot vaults and skins I feel zero remorse for the flop of Payday 3. Never bought 3 never will.
Agree. I loved Payday 2, played it until they ruined it with loot boxes. When I heard P3 was in development I wish listed it and waited for release. The initial reviews were crap so I removed it from my wishlist and moved on.
Why play crap heist game when you can ROCK AND STONE!
@@steampunkskunk3638 they ruined it with loot boxes? it's never took off and they make it so easy to get skin that most of it doesn't have much value, what are you talking about?
The damage No Man's Sky's "redemption story" has done to the industry is immeasurable.
No damage has been done. Payday 3 might be the only game on the market that gets compared to it. Hoping for a game to get better over time kinda always existed
@@Virtualsinner Keep huffing that copium, average consumer.
Nah, it's the early access model which cemented the "Release now; fix maybe later" mindset. NMS is just a story of hope that, at worst, has instilled a sense of sunk cost fallacy in fundamentally flawed projects.
@@jondoe5937 The model that No Man' Sky pioneered isn't "release now, fix later" it's "release now, fix never" since it's still missing a lot of the features it was advertised with and it's still an incredibly janky, badly designed and overall boring experience, much like Cyberpunk 2077, Sea of Thieves, Payday 3, etc.
This model works by setting the bar so low at launch that every significant improvement that comes after that is seen as a major milestone, until eventually you end up with a game that is mediocre at best but hailed as a masterpiece just because it's come a long way from what it was on release, even though it hasn't actually made good on it's pre-release promises. It misuses the concept of relativity to pray on people with low standards.
All they had to do was make you be able to play OFFLINE SOLO! Without having to rely on online matchmaking.
There's more than that for the game to succeed. I'd rather have hosted co-op than an offline mode I'll never use. Though for people with bad internet, I can understand the need for a proper offline mode.
At 00:41 you can se a Playstation 4 Dev Kit 😊
Never forget that Act man sold his soul to these guys and lied to his entire audience about it being good.
Now he pretends it never happened.
the power of sponsorship, they make horrible people even worse than they already are :)
......?
He played the pre release version of the game.
He got duped too.
And he did apologize for hyping up his audience in another video.
🤷♂️
??? He didn't play the retail version since it wasn't even out when he release the video
@@TJayRZI hope the boot tastes good bro
All those guys played a rather different version, so stop spreading BS.
Amazing video once more! One of the best channels on TH-cam.
The remix of the Cyberpunk music on the montage was hideous tho.😅
The irony of a video about a game that was doomed to fail being sponsored by a game that is doomed to fail is hilarious
I played Payday: The Heist and still play Payday 2 with several friends. One friend decided to pre-order Payday 3. I don't believe in pre-ordering games, and he kept pressuring me to get it until it released. After two weeks of complaining about the game he dropped the series entirely, and I am still glad I never bought the third game.
This video does not do any justice to any part of the game…. Big f on this video…. Missed 100% of the games life cycle, doesn’t even go into depth….
Payday3 is not a game that stands alone it is a game built on what came before, directly assisting these games together is key to understand what happened and why payday3 failed.
Fun fact should have mentioned honorable stuff:
The way skills worked and how that affected the game and changed payday2 forever and the evolution up to payday3 that payday3 fails horribly at.
The way armor works and its evolution from the heist to payday2 and how it’s horridly done in payday3.
The way dlc was handled and how it evolved the company ( mentioning only the later dlc and then not mentioning how bad that effected the stability of the game ontop of the loss of dlc due to copyright and ownership loss… ) to how they sell and how they do dlc, very very very important 20-1hour long section of in depth content right there.
You could talk about civilians and how they were fleshed out and made a worthless in payday3 almost, this could include the loss of money evolution, the moving and ability usage of civilians through the life of payday.
You could mention how events changed payday2 forever better but were so limited and only ever showed up so few times and then were gone forever, and the evolution of events is to be not in game in payday3, they are external you can’t join or know about events in game you have to go external to understand how to participate.
You could go into depth on how masks worked and how that evolved and changed, could add in weapon customization turning from nothing to the best to the worst, including cosmetics for weapons being horridly done in payday3.
You could go into depth on the achievements and the history of it, at least 30min segment, for payday3 it’s about 10min of just yea there is none it’s not worth it.
You could actually go into depth on singleplayer and talk about how key the bot ai is to the payday community.
You could go into depth upon the epic games crossplay update and how that forever changed and shifted payday into what it is today….
You can go into depth on the loot boxes and how the community won this, this itself has a major pact as to why we don’t have microtransactions yet in payday3.
There is a lot to payday, and if you actually want to know why payday3 failed, the heist is a good start but not very needed, you can think of it as a indie project that became payday2 which lived a full life and had a FINISH! Then once you learn what payday2 is life history and all that fun stuff, look at payday3 and see everything horridly wrong with it.
Payday3 is a playable game that could be good in a vacuum, where payday2 will forever be the better game and will change how you look at payday3 and make you understand why payday3 is failing.
Payday 3 was mostly a degrade of Payday 2. Boring heists, the AI worse in every way, bad servers, new enemies being absolutely useless or weak.
I disagree with the Heists, I find most of them enjoyable and replayable, but as for the enemies, 100% agree. The game needs its AI completely redone as well as its spawngroups and spawnrates as OVK is way too easy.
@@Metal_Invitine I found sitting in open circles boring. But yeah a lot of the enemies lack the intensity they had in 2, cloakers dont hide and ambush, snipers take 7 seconds to even start shooting at you, tasers are awful as they now need to switch from a rifle to tase. Also tasers and cloakers solo spawn near the heisters so easy to dispatch, the new drone operator is just a nuisance instead of a threat and cant even protect themselves.
When publishers hold all the rights and outway development cost by a large large margin this dog & pony show will continue to happen. All the wrong people in all the right positions fuck the whole system and the same people lose everytime.
Starbreeze was my favorite developer during the 7th console generation. It's sad how far they've fallen.
Thankfully, the real talent behind the studio went on to found MachineGames and with the exception of Youngblood, they've done very well in retaining the spirt of the Riddick games and The Darkness.
Writing was kind of on the wall when one of the founding brothers left. The one that left was clearly the smart one of the two since he wanted to make smaller projects as a way of diversifying the company. The one that stayed was the dumb one who lacked financial sense and wanted to make big expensive projects all of which as we know have failed miserably.
Imagine how differently things would be if the smart one stayed and the dumb one left.
@@_gungrave_6802
The smart one is also the person who shaped PAYDAY 2 as a game, or at least had a lot of influence and prevented the game from getting ruined for as long as he remained.. until 2015.
I just want to say as someone who has followed PAYDAY 3 every step of the way, usually these sorts of videos are incredibly ignorant or full of incorrect information. This was not one of them. This was incredibly well-researched and accurate while being presented in a really compelling and entertaining way, so hats off to you guys.
It was destined to fail NO MATTER WHAT. "Unreal Engine 4 & 5" is killing games faster than i expected.
This was a grand trip down memory lane, and helped me look without the rose colored glasses. Thanks a bunch.
The fact is that a lot of gamers do not have the newest PC available, and releasing a very demanding, expensive to buy sequel to a very low-spec game is asking for failure. This has happened to an indie roguelite that I liked. The first game still gets 10x more players than the sequel.
sad how the devs gone into the milking the product thing and blew it
Na blame bo anderson. He was in charge of the capital for the company and blew it on dumb shit that didn't pay back.
I've been waiting since the launch for this game to appear on this channel.
as a buddy of mine puts it.
: i can't wait to play payday 3, just let me know when the game and all dlc's are on 95% sale.
Thanks guys and Happy New Year.
The narrator for this channel makes me feel like I am watching a “How it’s Made” video or an old school History Channel doc. I see an upload, click, and I am immediately hooked.
Another great video! Thank you GVMERS for putting out such great content!
It’s funny that some companies think they can “No Man Sky” their way out of a disastrous launch.
Steam charts says right now, 3 has 857 players while 2 has 26,330. I think the people have spoken.
The new button inputs on controller for PD3 screwed me over on a stealth. My muscle memory for PD2 kicked in and I threw a grenade instead of packing a duffle bag….
I had to create an online account and it wouldn’t work. I never played the game.
same issue i had also i gave up and went back to the first game because of how insane it is
I already had a Nebula account prior to PD3 releasing, so I never had to deal with spending 5 minutes to make an account to play a game similar to most modern games that do the exact same thing.
I understand it's annoying or a worry about data, but this is just what modern game companies do now. And it really isn't that bad outside of being a mild inconvience to sign up to their website that hosts your cloud save across all platforms for PD3.
I love your videos, and I don't mind if you put sponsorship ads if you can keep rolling
It's crazy because I remember being really hyped for the release when it was being teased. Now, I've practically forgotten Payday 3 even released.
Imagine having one of your games in your catalogue be a core pillar of the co-op shooter genre next to Left 4 Dead and Deep Rock Galactic and then your next title does so poorly after launch that it gets beat out by Back 4 Blood (the worst co-op shooter ever made) and the garden/graveyard ops mode in Plants vs Zombies Garden Warfare 2 (a kids game), both of which coming out 2 and 7 years respectively before your game. What a fall from grace.
damn thats an early catch of upload :D
As someone who was burned by the launch as well, it still surprises me that people are milking the shit out of this for content.
16:46 the fact that they didn't use these "veterans" for their cash cow video game, just screams competancy issues within that company.
The Greatest memory playing video games with my friends was with Payday the Heist and Payday 2 but we saw the cracks in the foundation during Payday 2 console launch and updates
Welcome back GVMERS. Happy New Year!
I was a huge Pay Day2 fan, but the monetization system combined with the disastrous launch of Pay Day3 really broke it for me for that game.
"Launch broken and fix later" doesn't work anymore and publishers do not understand it.
Really unfortunate how it turned out. The seeming lack of understanding of what made the first and second game so good is baffling.
Another fantastic video! Thank you!
Im genuinely surprised that this channel only has 500L subs!
Honestly feels like ot should have a couple of million
Everyone who experienced what happened to the trash WW2 and WalkingDead game that were so bad they took them off stores, saw this coming miles ahead.
I really do hope they manage to turn it around. But I think that may take longer than SB can afford
My top 5 reasons it failed and still is down in the sewer:
- awful balancing, action is not viable anymore, not enough ammo without skillset grinding, skills themselves aren´t balanced TO THIS DAY
- not enough content, no idea how the content creation pipeline is for this game, but my god, it doesn´t even have 25% of payday 2´s content. even without pd2 dlc´s it had less content TO THIS DAY than payday 2 did 1 year after launch.
- stealth is WAY better, but who cares if most play action and end up with a more boring soundtrack. people underestimate the massbody piles of mayhem and banger soundtrack and how it changed the entire flow, vibe and pacing of the game alone
- im burned out on fcking carrying bags. i can not stand it anymore. im burned out on payday 2. payday 3 was like payda 2.5- not 2.5+
- while low fps were common due to diesel engines handling of many bodies, framepacing was smooth, payday 3 stutters like crazy due to unreal stutter engine, even to this day it can occur and the raised system requirements and bad pricing meant, most of the playerbase couldnt even run it BEFORE WAVES of cops piled up, once that happens, game over even on my higher end system back in 2022. and dont get me starte on unlocking attachments for guns. URGH HOW ANNOYING. already was bad in pd2, now its even WORSE.and they got rid of bain for some uninteresting female quota character with no character and boring dialogue.
There's barely any prominent Payday 3 content creators doing anything about Payday 3 anymore. Kknowley is on an up-and-down roller coaster on whether or not he has faith with the devs, RussianBadger and Grouse wouldn't touch it, and GeneralMcBadass just... Quit on Payday content in general.
Back when PD2 was new, my friend would host gaming parties and PD2 was always one of the first games that would be played. Eventually my friend got tired of PD2 when loot boxes were added. My friend saw the loot boxes as an insult, beside we had started moving towards other titles like DOTA 2, Planetary Annihilation: Titans, SIns: Rebellion. Plus life changes eventuall pried the group apart.
There is no way unreal 5 will boost performance.
The funny thing is I actually really like Payday 3's gameplay over 2. The cops actually have behaviours and formations that feel like they're cops (like their behaviour changes if you have a human shield) compared to PD2's glorified zombies with guns. The attrition based economy also makes heists feel like sieges where you have to conserve armour, health and ammo over PD2's wading in half-cocked and hipfiring.
Of course this doesn't excuse the faults of the game that surrounds the gameplay. The limited replayability and customisation most notably for me.
And a mixed bag from the server based netcode as while is has caused massive outages it also helps tackle one of PD2's biggest problems, cheating, by allowing servers to act as a verification step to reduce the ease of cheating.
I agree, but the enemy AI still needs improvements when in firefights. They're pretty stunted at times and sometimes just stare at you instead of shooting.
@Metal_Invitine I think that's to alleviate an issue with high difficulty PD2 gameplay where you'll come out of cover and immediately get gunned down by every cop in sight so that pause is probably to simulate a reaction time, or the AI has scripted behaviour that happens in a queue like they can't do X if condition Y is happening but leads to situations where enemies don't attack when they should.
Still beats PD2 AI though. PD3 cops actually take cover, form up and push. PD2 cops just meander in your general direction and think standing in the open is a good position.
Payday 3 is fun but even with all the updates its progression system is still trash. You only get XP if you finish a match. So if you spend an hour on a heist and get dropped you just lose all that time. I can't up grade my desert eagle because i keep getting match errors kicking me when i'm solo. And when i play with friends we go quiet so my guns also upgrade too slow. Upgrading weapons is just way too tedious.
You know you've really messed up when GVMERS makes a video on your game
So how about that Restoration Mod, huh?! It really, _really_ seems like something the developers should pay attention to if they’re interested in pulling their current money sink out of the death spiral it appears to be in…
They had Lightning in a Bottle. I feel bad that all their Efforts after Payday 2 went badly
This video is where I learned The Storyteller from Shoddycast and the Narrator for these are not the same guy. RIP Storyteller. We still love you
Every game studio transition into unreal engine is a challenging task
Great content! Sad story
Raid:WWII though is getting a lot of love recently from a group of people who are pushing out updates.
i can get over how companies hear it over and over from us gamers that hey this is not working then do all type of other stuff we didnt ask for then blame us for their failure.
You got the perfect game and just have to freshen it up a little for the sequel. How can you f this up sooo badly
Does the narrator was replaced by an IA ?
Rest in peace Michael Nermark, without you this studio went under.
Starbreeze are morons. They focused on multiplayer without understanding the had a solid gameplay loop that with standard AI, they could have had a solid single player campaign. Instead they have multiplayer/Co-op trash to excuse a premium price point. It's GTA Online heists minus the fun parts. If they are deemed AAA, I can't wait for their downfall with the rest in this current industry collapse. Just like every cycle before, the indies and bedroom coders will fill their places. Just like previous collapses of the videogame industry, the indies will step up, and some of them will be the next villains to fall. Look at CDPR as a current (2024/25) example.
Lots of people kept telling them to just make payday 2 with better graphics and new mechanics.
I don't understand how they fumbled THIS bad.
What's funnier is that the player count for the official Roblox game is higher than Payday 3.
Well, yeah, it's Roblox.
21:59 Imagine an Unreal Engine 5 update Improving Performance 🤣🤣
During the current steam winter sale Payday 3 costs 15 € and buying all DLC would cost 90 €.
This should make it clear where the developers priorities mainly lie :>
Im really tired of the “No Mans Sky” approach. Literally that should not be normalized
They completely gutted the payday 2 power fantasy. Gone was crazy armor gating frantic near invincible builds, crazy dodge ninjas, and hyper specialized turret builds. And in its place we got 10% to damage here, 10% to movement speed there. What good are new content drops and progression tweaks when the characters feel so boring to play i wouldn't want to use them or progress in the first place. THAT is payday 3s core issue, and im amazed it wasn't discussed in this video, but i suppose thats what you get from generic video essayist channels spurting out content on topics they dont care about to hit their video targets and cash in on the "juicy" stories
Issue?
@broccolin got a lot of em ya im a fuckin mess
@@APurpleSpy Me too
As someone who came in to the payday franchise with the 3rd one, I am also playing Payday 2 lol. It never interested me before but a friend was promoted to do a Payday 3 stream and literally no one in our group had played before. Had a good time and I had been following alot of the controversy of the game even though I didnt play at the time so I decided to check out Payday 2 and I am having a blast with it, bought some cool skins and dlc, level 53 or something now working my way though career while sometimes playing some offline missions. I dont play online as I dont want to ruin more pro players experience lol.
That's heartwarming to hear lol, there's a lot of fun to have so enjoy yourself!
Hey, as long as you don't play the highest difficulty (Death Sentence), don't worry about the "pro players experience", you are good.
But where you are right is that stealth public can be annoying for everyone involved so doing that solo or with friends is usually better.
I actually really liked how stealth gameplay evolved in 3. I never liked stealth in 1 and 2, but stealth in 3 was actually fun to play. But server issue droped me out, and there are too many games to play nowdays