“I was preparing to go to Nyack College. Before I left there was one burning question I had in mind, and I went to Dr. Tozer and said, Could you give me some advice concerning the problem of Calvinism versus Arminianism?” And I’ll never forget the advice he gave me. At the time I thought it was rather inconclusive and not too helpful. But I listened carefully. He said, my son, when you get to college you’re going to find that all of the boys will be gathered in a room discussing and arguing over Arminianism and Calvinism night after night after night. I’ll tell you what to do, Cliff. Go to your room and meet God. At the end of four years you’ll be way down the line and they’ll still be where they started, because greater minds than yours have wrestled with this problem and have not come up with satisfactory conclusions. Instead, learn to know God.” In Pursuit of God The Life of A.W. Tozer, James L. Snyder page 132
Very wise advice. I've heard something similar. God gives us everything we need to accomplish what He wants us to accomplish, and understanding exactly how God does things doesn't appear to be one of them. Baaa, so I'll go baaack to doing what I can with what little I have and try to stay in my lane....we really are like sheep
That is perfect. We are having this discussion right now as our church has turned hard towards Calvinism. I have said both Calvinism and Arminianism are the ideas of men. I’d rather focus on the Bible and see what God says.
Been listening to your Sot. 101 for a few years now, and learned a lot about Cal. that I didn’t know before. Thank you for all you’ve done. Yet at the end of the day, after the warm breezes of Calvinists and non-Calvinists fade away, there are three things that I’m very grateful for: 1) “If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” 2) “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:9, 13. “And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.” Phil. 4:7. Thank God he has also made the matter easy to understand.
Well put. Yackiteeyak all you like, It’s great to keep your minds sharp; however, Salvation is what matters. Those conversations that may confuse and cause division should be entered into with caution, and the fruits of the spirit and ask for Gods guidance.
@@frederickneese6382 I believe this, too - additional simplicity: Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." I'm truely grateful for receipt of this gift. It has helped me throughout my growing closer to God and in learning to "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus...." Phil. 2:5
I almost got sucked into the whole calvinism thing… but I kept praying and praying that God would show me the truth because it was destroying my joy. Thank you so much
Go listen to Mike Desario on "holdingfirmly" YT channel. Start with his "suppression the truth in righteousness" vid. It expans calvinism-lutheranism with historical proofs what it is when where. It's short yet full of facts so you will see why McCartherism -calvinism is demonic from its root in the 3rd century, thx to Augustine-Constantine. Those evil men did.
I did get sucked into it, and it almost ruined my life. All it takes is for one to fall into sin and they start to doubt their "election" and it can cause you to lose hope and leads to more sin. It is a works based salvation where a man's transgressions or righteousness becomes the measurement used to determine the eternal state of the individual. Dangerous stuff that has a lot of well meaning people messed up.
i’d say keep digging. the doctrines of grace are true. i was opposite of this guy i was a Arminian for 12 years. there are too many holes. Salvation comes from the Lord alone. if you get a chance check out James White he really knows his stuff. The scripture is very clear. best wishes!
I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian. I'm a Christian. Thank you Dr. Flowers for making this issue clear. P.s. meaning, I follow neither man--Calvin nor Arminius. I believe in Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of the Living God!
The explanation of Flowers is Very Clear to you? ....when you denied the sovereignty of God...when their text that clearly is explaining the sovereignty of God, but you don't accept them, what Macarthur is saying is that he accept those passages because they are very clearly talking about the sovereignty of God, even though are difficult to accept, he won't dare to change the meaning intended .
@@patiduran2438 You need to learn more theology and we all need to read your Bibles more. You can be a Molinist. 🤦🏾♂️ oh and where in the Bible does it say that I am one or the other. 🤔
I think so many today are ignoring the simplicity of just reading the bible ourselves, not bringing our pre-conceived ideas along, and just trusting the Holy Spirit, prayerfully to teach us all things. Pray that God will lead you to the truth no matter where that leads. Hunger for the truth and once the Lord reveals truth to you, then have back bone and don't fear men.
So you propose to compose your own message of salvation based on your personal understanding of Scripture? Do I understand you correctly? Well, that is exactly what Calvin was doing, my friend... don't you see this? Don't you see that you are following your own ideas and opinions? The Gospel is not for us to compose, my friend: it is rather for us to accept. It is hard to believe. What you propose is the very definition of Protestantism, which grants each man his own gospel compilation. Division squared: one gospel for each man. Wake up!
That's not what he/she said. The message reads, "Read the Bible prayerfully asking the help of the Holy Spirit." Why follow the 'word' of just another human or voice which the internet is saturated with.
@@pierreschiffer3180 The Lord rebuke you for twisting @2ndbirth's words. John Calvin in his institutes said that he proposes his (man-made) system for people to read the Bible through. Yet, you denigrate the person who posted this. Shame on you.
What does that verse have to do with this topic? "Confusion" in 1 Corinthians 14:33 simply means disorder. It has nothing to do with a lack of understanding.
LOL - this gentlemen talks about eisegesis and then quotes 1Cor.14:33 like you just gave him credit for. That verse has to do with the Apostle Paul addressing churches that are speaking in tongues and just going wild with what they "feel"; this is not about confusion regarding election or God's sovereign will.
Proverbs 16:4 God created even the wicked for the day of evil and that's why he allowed sinning to the world so we can be sons and daughters of God through the cross of Jesus it wasn't just a free will choice. Then it's in the flesh which is not pleasing to God Romans 8:8.
As if anyone could rob Him of His glory that some might think. But if there’s a belief that does seem to give Him more or much glory from man’s perspective, it is provisionism. Because the Calvinist god needs man to defend His sovereignty. The provisionist recognizes He is truly sovereign because even man’s freedom given to Him by God Himself to choose can’t thwart Him or His plan. Not only that but actually use man’s free will to bring Him much glory by still getting His will done.
@@fletchermoorman7900 exactly! This point Alone is enough to break down irresistible grace. Grace is not a sentient entity which means that if it were irresistible then it would have to get that quality from God which means God himself would be irresistible but that idea is decimated in Genesis alone when man willingly rebels against God. The claim of being irresistible is exclusive. You can not be irresistible and resistible at the same time in the same context. Man can choose because he was given the ability to do so by God. This is why there is no way to strip God of his glory, because even if you resist him you are simply exercising an ability that was given to you by God essentially operating within the confines of the reality he has created.
@@jacobbarnett8495 Well, when I don't know about something, I don't speak, unlike the Calvinists bark of their stupid theology All the time and frame anyone who opposes it, as if they're against the sovereignty of God, and preach on it so boldly. But when you ask for explanations, either they will appeal to "mystery", which is what gnosticism is all about- gnosis, hidden knowledge, or they'll give some of the most ridiculous things you'll ever get to get in theology. Where is your boldness, when it comes to explanations?
@@albinsiby729 Not understanding the infinite mind of God as a mortal human being is quite different from not knowing if something is true. Scripture is clear on these issues. The mystery does not lie in how God saves His people. That is quite plain. The mystery is why he would save any. I would boldly debate all five points with you until the grave if I had the time. If you made an effort to look, there is plenty of explanation by theologians much more prepared and qualified than me, using proper exegesis unlike some who pluck 1 John 2:2 out of context and completely reject its obvious connection and parallel to John 11:51-52 (among countless other instances of disturbing eisegesis) Also read the book of Job.
@@jacobbarnett8495 And regarding the book of Job, Calvinists should be afraid. Because God says in Job 42:7 - "My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has." His anger burned Against them because they misportayed God, and Calvinists do exactly that when they paint HIM in such horrible light by their theology.
@@albinsiby729 I'd say that it paints God in a horrible light to think that he is so weak that he must subject himeslf to man's will. You don't think he can save those whom he purposes to save, and you dont think he can hold on to them until the end?
Amen brother!!! “Stay a non-determinist until God makes you a determinist”- I will carry that little nugget of wisdom all of my days! Thank you brother!
When I started exploring Christianity, I visited a number of local protestant churches with few preconceived notions of doctrine etc. I started attending one quite regularly, even joined a Bible study group, and it wasn’t until 18 months in that I realized, these folks are all Calvinists. When I asked why they never talk about it, they said they want to be welcoming and inviting to all - milk before meat and all that. I think it’s because if people knew what they believed from the start, they’d run the opposite direction.
The main reason many "run" from Calvinism is that belief (Reformed Theology) challenges much of what they have been taught, and have come to believe. That takes place in looking at any concepts (not just religous) that you have come to embrace, when those concepts differ from, or oftentimes oppose, what you believe. We want to remain "comfortable" with our various beliefs, and fear enters into the picture when they are challenged.
@@soldier7332 Apparently, you have not studied or perhaps even read the Book of Genesis - that is where the basics of Calvinism (Reformed theology) got its roots, and it is supported throughout the Bible.
@@77ronboy You say that people run from Calvinism because of the paradigm they bring to the table. If that's true then how come you never see a Calvinist witnessing to people pushing the doctrine they believe in? I can see it going something like this. "Have you heard the good news of the Gospel? Let me tell you about it. For God loves each and everyone of us, well not all of us. Some of us he put on this earth specifically condemned to hell. So make sure you accept our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as your personal savior so you can be sure to never know if you may or may not be one of the elect of the Kingdom of Heaven. So until your dying day you'll never be secure in your salvation because you are so wretched you wouldn't know good if God put it on you." I could keep going, but the point is no Calvinist ever shares the gospel like this because regardless of paradigm you would turn and run from a doctrine like this.
@@shanefrederick4012 Shane - a very interesting reply, but I will share a couple of points. As you've stated the Calvinistic stand, I would run from it myself, but your description does not fit what Calvinists believe. They "should" share the gospel in the same manner that anyone of a different faith would. There would be two effects however. The one whose heart has not been prepared to receive it, would reject it. The one whose heart has been prepared to receive it, would receive it. If it is received, then that person [knows] he/she is a child of God, and does not have to live wondering about their destination in their next life. It seems to be that most of those who reject Calvinism (I prefer Reformed Theology), do so because they don't really know what that doctrine entails. They know just enough of the "tough" stuff to scare them away. Other doctrines do not provide a feeling of security as they promote the idea of their continuing efforts to live a life of pleasing God in order to reach Heaven. Those ideas are actually "works-based" when Salvation is actually a "free lunch" for those who are His children.
Thank you so much for making videos and explaining these issues. My husband and I met right before he had a crisis of doubt where he became a calvinist and now holds a supralapsarianist and conditionalist position. Unfortunately he now believes that most people (me, our Christian families & friends) aren't saved. Your videos have made it seem possible for me to have a conversation with him and they have given me hope. About to binge watch all of your videos now and send them to our families!
Please stop listening to mere mortal men telling us how to think about God and theology and Just listen to God's Holy Spirit while reading God's word. Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Didn't Jesus say unless we come to Him as a little child we have no part in Him?.... Matthew 18:3
Sorry to hear, it took me a while to realize just how evil Calvinism is. They are very works related at the same time. At least he’s not atheist, just read and pray with him and God will change his heart.
How nice for MacArthur that he doesn't have to worry about Calvinism's contradictions since he's conveniently one of the Elect chosen in eternity past. It may not be his problem, but for discouraged young Christians struggling with their faith, who know they're headed for hell, it's giving them nightmares. Calvinism is so full of contradictions and paradoxes that it renders God's love and justice a mystery beyond our comprehension. This is what very nearly drove me away from the Christian faith, and *succeeded* in driving away two of my sisters.
It's also what led Calvin himself to commit atrocities that showed his appetite was for the Earth and its fulness. Or maybe it was that mercenary self-interest that led to his writing of his institutes.
@@mlady8137, the city of Geneva ("Here we have no continuing city") has history you can research of things not following Jesus. As for Calvin, he helped one of his friends (Servetus) to die as a heretic. Many other things not hard to find. You can do a little research.
Carnal thinker, not biblical thinker, but if you are in the flesh you'll like the thinking of Flowers, but if someone is a biblical thinker they will dislike Folwer’s thinking
@@jessejimenez1793 I am glad I'm not the only one who seen the wholes is this way of thinking, He is comparing the gift of God of eternal life, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross to pay for your Sins to one of you kids using a computer for the wrong reason and not the reason it was intended? Really? How can if God gives you the gift of salvation by Grace through Faith in Christ be misused? That salvation and gift is a one way ticket, the ONLY part you play in the entire process from start to finish is that of being in the receiving end, otherwise God didn't do it ALL but you assisted. What did Jesus say multiple times in the bible? No one can come to me unless my Father draws him. In Greek of that day that word draw is DRAG, its also used when talking about dragging of the fishing nets, basically what Jesus is saying that the nature of the fallen man is so severe that God has to drag us to him to save us.
Calvinism has always confused me because God is love. What is love? A simple answer would be, it is to willfully put another's interests ahead of your own. Can you love someone out of force, can you compel someone to love another, can love be love without choice? My answer to those three questions, and I think the Bible supports this, is no. Now you cannot force or compel someone to love another, you cannot love without choice. So if God loves us, and he wants us to love him, then he cannot compel us to love him, nor can we compel him to love us. God loves us because all of creation was done out of God's love for us. God chose to limit his power and give us free will, the ability to choose, knowing we will make mistakes and separate ourselves from himself. As a parent I experience this with my daughters all the time. I know they will separate themselves from me, they will sin against me, but I choose to love them, not because they have earned it but because I chose to do what's best for them without any care for how it affects me. You cannot love in the Calvinistic world view.
In the end, I believe that the topic deals with judging God's nature and intentions.... Calvinism declares that they know God's nature even when it denies other passages of scripture. Leighton's view is much more in line with all of scripture.
Calvinists don't believe they know God's divine intentions other than what the Bible says. Whatever it is you are a critic of is not Calvinism and that's true for this "doctor".
This is so good my friend! These guys have been intimidating us youngsters for the last 20 years I’m grateful to Holy Spirit to finally see someone brave enough to put these haughty attitudes down-Crushcrush
Hey! I would also recommend that you check out what Dave Hunt has written and spoken on the subject of Calvinism. He's got some really great content over on the Berean Call!
@@T.Ravikumar good question! Common question, Joel Berle has a great sermon on this topic I’d recommend. I’d also in a short manner in this comment suggest this: why pray for anyone’s salvation if God is not sovereign over that? He won’t save anyone against their will according to those who disagree with the Doctrines of Grace. But I️ pray as Jesus taught me to pray. “Your will be done.” Great question though, R.C. Sproul has some other great resources on this and even Costi Hinn with For the Gospel Ministries. Hope that helps!
@@succubus20y Consider the possibility that Calvinist Theology not making sense - is accomplished through a process known as Voluntary Cognitive Distortion. It starts with the Calvinist mind being conditioned to accept determinism as TRUE. And deterministic thinking is classified as a cognitive distortion - because a determinist MUST live *AS-IF* determinism is FALSE in order to have any degree of normalcy. The Calvinist mind becomes conditioned to automatically treat determinism *AS-IF* it has the attributes of IN-determinism. This is a form of Voluntary Mental Conditioning which introduces cognitive distortion. Once the conditioning takes hold - the mind automatically treats certain things that are FALSE *AS-IF* they are TRUE. And treats certain things that are TRUE *AS-IF* they are FALSE. You as an outsider watching the results - recognize it as not making sense. But once the Cognitive distortion takes effect within the Calvinist mind - it becomes the only pattern his mind can think in. Does that make sense? :-]
@Gavin Riley Being delivered from Calvinism's mental ensnarement is totally wonderful!! Thank you Gavin - for sharing that! And may the Lord continue to set you free!
I still listen to 20 hours+ per week of sermons by pastor John. I love his earnest attempt to confront false doctrine and keep to the teachings of scriptures. His general passion and honest conscientiousness is admirable. HOWEVER, every time he talks about predestination and absolute determinism something inside me cringes. Like, of course God needs to be ABLE to have control, but humans have deligated spaces of authority (see Adam naming the animals - why would He express pleasure with people obeying him throughout scripture?). Im not set on either side of the argument for Calvinism or Armenianism, just wanted to share my thoughts so far in my journey :)
@Matt Mayuiers surprisingly I already started doing this. Also I found an answer for this. God exists outside of time. He isn't "was, is, them will be" he "was, is, AND is to come". God's sovereignty and free will paradoxes go away under this light :) Thanks for your direction, I'll look into Aquinas!
This clip of MacArthur might be the best at demonstrating how callus he is towards people. Intellectual Christianity, not very relational. Compassion? Emotion? A heart connection to what he said about lost people? This is how the Calvinist operates...they can be really cold people! Cruel even in the name of correct doctrine. Dont we all have stories? I know i do! Live in this culture for a few years...then you will get it. It can border a cult-like feel. You are either in or you are out...almost business-like approach to managing people. They make the worst counselors as well which is a leak in this system. How conveniently JM flips over this contradiction. "It's not my problem..." He ain't losing any sleep in reflective thought.
This. This. This. When I came to Christ in college, I was innocent, I read the Bible for what it says, and I didn't search scripture for mysteries. Then over time, I became heavily influenced by Calvinism, not knowing what it was, but comfortable with its message explaining away all mysterious (ironically). I became a very angry, confrontational Christian, which ultimately cost me my marriage. Did God predestine that I would be influenced by man instead of his word? No. JM was one of my thought leaders, causing me to draw simple conclusions and isolate the interpretations brought forth by other Christians. I am still on a mission to find the truth between all the thought camps, but I now understand the danger of fallen men who think they have all the answers. The Bible alone is all we need for instruction and doctrine.
100 times yes! Calvinists are (not always), but some of the hardest, most callous and cold Christians I have ever met. And they often use the doctrine to justify a lifestyle of sin, even while "exalting the glory and sovereignty of God". One friend of mine admitted publicly that he became a Calvinist because that way he could sin and justify it - I was absolutely floored, and heartbroken.
I am just discovering you and your videos. Thank you so much for this work you are doing. I was completely put off by Calvinism when I started attending church as an adult. I had read a lot of the Bible before going to church. My church experience as a child was sparse…VBS’s and a brief time of attending church when the pastor and his wife would pick us up and take us to church. But in my reading of the Bible it never occurred to me that God controlled every minute detail of peoples lives or that he predestined anyone for hell. It just isn’t a logical conclusion. But this doctrine especially in it’s full form is out right dangerous and blasphemous to the character and integrity to God. I know there are a lot of self professed “Calvinists” out there that don’t hold to all 5 points because I believe they recognize the fallacy. If Calvinism in all points is true, they devil really has little role an anything. God somehow becomes both the evil perpetrator and the savior. Anyone who has ever lived with an abusive manipulator will see this doctrine for what it is. Hopefully they will have enough Scripture and knowledge of Jesus to recognize it is completely false. If not they may reject the God of the Scriptures based on this false representation. Sadly the Calvinist would smuggly sit back and say, well I guess that one was appointed for damnation. Again I know all that call themselves Calvinist aren’t so extreme. But I can say this. As a person who questioned and rejected Calvinism, but attended a church for 8 years that was Calvinist o now see that my thinking is very influenced by this false world view without even realizing it. This affects how I pray for people the level of hope I have for certain people if they can or will be saved. I had bought into the foreknowledge view as in Armenianism without knowing it. This is so important. People who have suffered great evil at the hands of evil people will run from the Calvinist view of the Gospel. This is a HUGE stumbling block to faith. Thank you again for this important work. I am looking forward to learning more.
I really appreciate the way you put this. It is so true that this Calvinist view does more harm than Good. I personally cannot reconcile the Calvinist view of God with the just and loving nature of God that I have come to know from reading my Bible. My spirit felt extremely unsettled when I learned about the views that Calvinists hold, because it purposely excludes certain people from salvation. It puts God in a position that makes Him seem like some sadistic being who created people to suffer and go to hell without any hope of being saved because they were not chosen and we're predestined to end up in hell. It makes people question their salvation. It creates an air of arrogance around those who believe that they were hand picked by God to be saved while others were rejected. I pray with all my heart that those who have lost their faith because of Calvinism may come to know God again and who He really is.
Thank you so much for this channel, I just recently happened to stumble upon it . I have been so bothered by the teachings of Calvinism for so long and go back and forth in my head but never persuaded to go along with it something about it just didn't feel right that's why I thank you so much for your Clarity because I think it's more than confusing what they teach it's downright defeating . So many people feel that they just don't measure up that they're not chosen so they walk away it's a very dangerous teaching in my view because it does not reflect the love of God as I understand it.
God tells us to choose life, if we could not He is a liar. Romans says man is without excuse, man knows there is a God. If you seek me with your whole heart you will be found of me. God says if you have not because you ask not. Ask for His help. I believe He knows what we will do, but we chose. The Bible says Jesus was tempted by the devil, if it wasn't possible He could have chosen wrong, He could not have been tempted.
“Deceiving, and being deceived” that confusion came straight from the devil...and he knew that he just plunged that audience even further into confusion..laughing. I pray that many people will come out of this evil system.
I don't know how calvinists can even use the words "Deceiving and being deceived". Neither would be possible if everything is predetermined 🤔. I just heard a sermon by John MacArthur about the consequences of our choices. How strange is that 🤦♂️
@@djohnson3093 Well argued. Seducers and deceivers are out there, but couldn't we see them as outsiders to the Church, as all the non-Christian heresies. Do we have to jump right on each other. The basics of the Christian Faith are universal to all believers. Let's hammer those nails firmly and leave the brass tacks for theological discussion.
Back in the 90s I had read Dave Hunt’s “What Love is This” and wrote off Calvinism just from what Calvin did in Geneva without totally understanding his theology or should I say “Constructs” which thanks to men Ike you, I understand now. Then I read a book by MacArthur that discussed Lordship Salvation and it sounded good to me back the because I had been saved for 5 years(a baby). I mentioned the book to my pastor and he said LS was heretical. So I was done with MacArthur, but I never put it together that he was a Calvinist. It’s all getting clear to me now and why it is so popular and dangerous! Thanks for your ministry!
@@JeremiahBlasi exegesis is good when studying scripture. Hunt wrote a book that was well referenced. The Holy Spirit, not Dave Hunt would have to convince someone that Calvinism 1-5 points is a false gospel.
@@Matt24_ The Five Points is not a Gospel! You are confused about what you are criticizing. I think Anti calvinists have an issue with the doctrine of the soverignty of God - they are angry at God for things in their lives, so they instead blame calvinism for emphasising the sovereignty of God. They fall back on the soverignty of Satan - something else.
In the vast majority of sermons John MacArthur preaches he speaks like an Arminian. Only when a sermon gets close to the ideas of Calvinism does he preach Calvinism. One sermon that is the most anti-Calvinist sermon he has is called “The Only Road To Heaven”. And it is an excellent sermon. Why he can’t see it baffles me.
Great comment there Brian. That's how you get an ear tickling message when these pastors act like this. A lot of these pastors have a message where just anybody could preach it and then there's certain messages that these people are the wrong ones to listen to. When it comes to salvation they got the wrong message.
Straight, no nonsense, basic logic. People with cogent and rational views are so few and far between these days, even among Christians. Thanks for this.
Thank you Dr. Flowers; I love listening to you regardless of the topic. It is a pleasure because of the healthy amount of love, humility and truth ringing from your voice. Two of my other favorite pastor/teachers to listen to are John Paul Jackson and David Pawson because they had this same meekness and humble authority in their voice. I imagine the same would have been true of Jesus, himself. I really can't see Jesus giving any teaching in the same manner as Mr. MacArthur.
Kathrine J. Kozachok I throughly enjoy David Pawson’s teachings. It’s very sad That Calvinists have created a different god from the God of the Bible in their minds and worship him with much arrogance. Very sad indeed, idol worship of a serial killer like John Calvin and blatant twisting and disregarding of the scriptures. I pray for the scales to fall from the eyes of every person stuck in false doctrine for Christ’s sake
These guys are the most intelligent, intellectual human beings who have ever graced the planet, until you ask them about these contradictions. Then they are suddenly "why you asking my pea brain???"
Thank you brother for your dedication to defending the truth. I find that too many people are comfortable not caring about diving deeper in these truths that you bring up. The enemy has brought so much delusion to the church of God that needs to be weeded out!
The Bible clearly says that He knows the beginning from the end. We have free will but that doesn't mean He doesn't already know what choices we will make. I'm so tired of labels
So true. He knew me before I was born and if there’s a chance my parents didn’t get together I wouldn’t be born and he would only know potential people not actual people. Same with the future. He would only know potential possible futures not the actual future so there’s also a chance revelation wont exist because people have free will to do good. Seems there’s also a chance humans can never sin due to free choices.
Sir, I have never heard of you till today. I found this video to be very interesting and helpful. However I take exception to one thing you said. You challenged us to be bereans, and search out the best scholars of both sides. Sir, while I value scholarship, I take it that the Bereans searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so. I agree that the Calvinists, primarily, promote the false dichotomy that you can be either a Calvinist or Arminian. Both sides are not lacking in great scholarship. Therefore, scholarship is not the ultimate answer, but a return to Biblical truth and regarding the scriptures as commonly interpreted. In a way, I think the scholarship has been the problem. We have allowed traditions and philosophies of men to supersede the authority of scripture. If God gave us His word that it may be read, He gave it that it may be understood. Rather than waste time sinking either ship, I think we had rather run to the solid ground of the authority of God's perfect word, scholarship notwithstanding. I hope you receive this in the spirit intended. Thanks again, and God bless you!
you are indeed correct. but the problem is that we have ALL already been influenced by teachers and scholars and preachers, and we see scripture thru that lens even tho we dont realize it. the only way to combat that, is to study other points of view to force us out of our box. you are correct tho, that if someone has NEVER knwon anything about God, and just read the bible without any presuppositions, you would be neither a calvinist nor an arminian.
Do you thing that knowledge increases over time? Did we gain knowledge with the first 7 ecumenical church councils? They led to more accurate creeds and orthodoxy. Isn't it the nature of knowledge that it improves over time if one is focused on rationality rather than defending one's historical beliefs? Seems like your indictment of scholarship is too sweeping. Why not examine the scholarship for truth-value before throwing out scholarship that gets us closer to what the original audience would have understood a text to mean?
The notion that many good and conservative evangelical ‘scholars’ don’t approach the Bible with all its authority is beyond silly. The problem is not lay/uneducated people or educated (“scholars”) reading the Bible - the problem is the reasoning used to unpack the biblical narrative
But without scholarship or searching the scriptures like bereans how will we discover truth?The minute you start interpreting you have become a scholar and berean,every one of us is a “scholar”.Scripture is not open to private interpretation, it is rather the private interpretation that creates differences not scholarship itself.We cannot get away from our fallen nature which will by its pride, arrogance and self righteousness obscure our interpretation.The reason why we differ is because we have free will,we are the authors of confusion and it is certainly not ordained by God as Calvinists suggest;aGod that brings all things to pass ,even confusion?Our differences prove free will .
You have to also understand that a lot has change from the time John Calvin taught it and now. I am not a Calvinist as that would be like saying I am a MacArthurist. LOL. John Calvin was just a pastor like the rest of them. I do believe in the Doctrine of Election like John MacArthur but is it God's fault that people are going to Hell? NO, the Bible says in Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: AND Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) This is SO plain that by Adam sin entered into the world. NOW, did God see it long before? YES, and God allowed it to happen to finish HIS SOVEREIGN PLAN. If ALL are dead in SIN then the grace of God that saved the ELECT will a rescue from the HOLY JUST Judgement of God. It is like the Father telling His Son, "To save 'A REMNANT' of my creation, I WILL GUARANTEE they will come to you when YOU die on the cross". It was a gift from the Father to His Son as we see here. Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. Jesus was speaking of the 11 Apostles BUT look close at these next verses in John. Now Jesus is speaking about all the ELECT. Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: but for them (THE ELECT) also which shall believe on me through their word.... THEIR WORD or through the words of the Apostles that wrote the New Testament (THE BIBLE). Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. the world (non believers) hath not known thee..... I WILL declare my name to the ELECT. Since we DO NOT KNOW the elect or who they are we follow the command of the Bible. Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! We preach to ALL MEN and leave the Elect up to God and His Sovereign Will.
You are right about the gaslighting. Calvinists do have a history of bullying anyone who disagrees with them. Many of them are very unloving and condescending.
The greatest gifts we were given at birth are, breath, freewill and the ability to choose. These are not ours, they were given without even asking for them. BUT, In His wisdom, he wanted His children to love Him with a freewill and choose Him. He gets all the Glory!!
@@Lena.9 The difference is MacArthur was the one saying it's confusing. The video commentator only points out then it must not be from God. MacArthur sorta hurt his own argument.
@@Bulldog75stp Except that verse is talking about order versus disorder. Not confusing in this sense. We love to use Bible verses like ammunition. It will hit at least somewhere. Yes, am guilty of this too. Doesn’t make it less silly 😉
@@Lena.9 It's only by Gods word we can distinguish between right and wrong. Nothing silly about using what we're suppose to use for it's intended purpose.
You really shouldn't need a pep talk from someone to calm down from any idiotic mess that makes no cohesive sense even to God. Cults throughout the world flourish because of knee-jerk reactions and emotional hurts that guide us rather than the kindness of a logical and reasonable God. Please consider reading the Bible to see what God says about himself (always in context) and pray for wisdom. God's Holy Spirit is available to everyone who is willing (and he can make us willing). You'll find you will be inexplicably drawn to the living Christ Jesus.
So well said. I was raised in a Calvinistic church. So I know all the answers that they give. You have shown the weakness of the core argument. That if God is absolutely sovereign, Then all books are determined by God not just the scriptures.
@RStark-ek7mh I have listened to James White and R C Sproul. The problem is that what they say does not match the scripture. You need to read the scripture in context and also understand the audience. So many of the calvinist proof texts sound convincing, until you realize that the audience is not all believers. Yet they are still saying that people have a choice to believe or reject. This is the core of calvinism. The inability from birth unless God supernaturally quickens you. But Paul tells us that faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
@RStark-ek7mh Some of the greatest students of the Bible in history would not agree with Doctor White. The answer is not as obvious as many would think. Read A.W. Tozer or C.S. Lewis.
I wonder if we're just getting too lost in random and abstract doctrines. I feel like the essence of Christianity is contained in the Sermon on the Mount and in the verses of scripture that deal with Christ's atonement. I think focusing on those areas is more productive than debating some of these other concepts.
Absolutely not. Not that those things aren’t good. We are dealing with false gospels, though. False teachings leading men to hell. Calvinism is one such doctrine. If all someone ever believed is Calvinism, they will split hell wide open. So no, this isn’t some “abstract doctrine”. We are discussing the core of our belief, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I have wrestled with this for years. Couldn't agree more! when I received Christ, the guy who married me said,"isnt it great God chose you?" that started years of me wrestling with Clavinism. thanks for the teaching.
The Calvinist: "God determined all you do, and decreed it so ... God is more soveign than you ... so who can resist his will ... yet you are responsible and punished for doing that which he decided you do before the earth was. Also, any good thing you do as a Christian, using God's power, was also deteremined and not your own doing ... but if you don't do them you are held accountable ... and if you do do them he gets the credit and glory. So in other words, God preprogrammed a world, wrote out every line of behavior, and then said let there be light (start the program) ... then punishes all for doing the things he wrote that they do before hand. And especially punish those who reject the Son even more ... even though God didn't give them the power to do that which God called them to do; i.e. believe". Utter nonsense in every way. There is a reason everyone "struggles" with Calvinism when they are taught it ... it's because it's incoherent, against all scripture, illogical, unreasonable, and turns God into a disgusting and wicked being. Everyone knows it's false, but the high and mighty "college educated" reformed types look down from their ivory towers and just say "who are you o man" and "i don't have to harmonize anything (make sense of the bible lol)".
Great and sharp summary of the incoherence and actually non Biblical nature of Calvinism that mars the glorious image of God in the minds of Calvinist adherents..
What's the other option? Do you think God did anything ignorantly? Do you think God looked through time to see what people would do? How does God know the future?
Thank you. I’ve been tormented by Calvinism. I’ve tried to accept it as truth yet the contradictions and implications against God’s character drive me to say some pretty awful accusations against God. I felt awful and paralyzed. This video is giving me some clarity and validation to my objections. Thank you for your help.
The end result of Calvinism is the belief that God is the sole actor in the universe -- Satan, angels, demons, sinners, murderers, child molesters, thieves, adulterers, liars... all for God's glory? Yeah...a CULT.
For the first time in my life I found myself doing the same thing when I learned about Calvinism. Trying to understand the ideas perpetuated by this belief completely warped my perception of God, that learned about from reading my Bible, and I found myself saying terrible things about God that I never ever even thought about before. This belief is extremely dangerous. My spirit immediately felt like it was at war with Calvinism. I thank God for the Holy Spirit who enables us to discern the things that are not from God. I will pray for you. God bless you.
I was raised Mormon, but I turned from it and was saved by Christ several years ago. One thing that stuck out to me about this is that MacArthur, along with other Calvinists, use the whole “shelf” analogy; if something about this religious belief doesn’t make sense to you, just put it on the shelf, and have faith that one day it will make sense to you, which is very similar to the whole methodology I was familiar with during my Mormon upbringing.
How nice for him. He's conveniently one of the Elect chosen in eternity past, and was never in any danger of going to hell at any point. Of *course* it's not his problem. Meanwhile, it remains utterly lost on him that the words coming out of his mouth are *terrifying* young Christians *to death.* At least Dr. John Piper *tries* to offer words of comfort to people who are struggling with doubts about their faith.
Ruben T Have you watched MacArthur much? He’s a very good pastor and has q&a sessions explaining to people assurance of salvation. He should not be scaring any true Christians. He says consistency that God chooses us, yet there is also the offer to come. He admits God has this all balanced out and one thing we can trust with God is that he will send no one to hell unjustly. This would violate his attribute of justice. He is just. He shows no favoritism. We can rest assured in that truth.
The amazing thing about MacArthur here is that he says he can't understand how to gel certain theological ideas because he is not God, but Calvinism puts limits on God by suggesting that God can't be sovereign, all-knowing, and all-seeing and give us free will. So, when it doesn't suit his argument, he doesn't understand God, but when it suits his argument, he approaches it with some understanding of how God operates that cannot be conclusively derived from the Bible.
Solid teaching, thank you. This shared wisdom makes sinning, culpability and free will make more sense. This understanding makes salvation wanted, needed and necessary to get out from under the weight of judgement of the sin upon our shoulders. Its a beautiful thing that God leaves an escape from imperfection through Jesus. Feels good to be saved and feels icky to sin is the life of a believer of Jesus Messiah. Great teaching, Thank you.
Let’s make this simple. I have two sons. I tie one of them to a chair. I tell both to clean their rooms. Only one obeys. I hold the disobedient son responsible for refusing to clean his room. I cast him outside into the darkness. He is the lucky one.
One adjustment, neither one obeyed. (Edited for spelling) According to Calvinism, the one who obeyed just did what he was "caused/programmed " to do- no obedience. Calvinisms definition of sovereign does not allow anyone to do anything apart from pure cause, remember, unless one is already regenerated- saved by new Spiritual birth- one cannot do what is caused- hear the gospel of God about Jesus Christ, let alone believe. The one regenerated cannot be disobedient because it was determined he or she would believe. Willing, unwilling, obedience, disobedience, do, don't do, etc. is not possible because one has no choice. Choice is only possible by volition. So, the one not tied to the chair is an automaton made of flesh, bone, and blood.
I have a red ball and a blue ball. I choose the blue ball. This proposition is logically equivallent with the proposition: "I did not choosed the red ball".
Leighton’s reasoning here shines. JM seems to consistently surround himself with those he expects would never express dissent, and thus he can ‘get away’ with concluding he cannot harmonize the Scriptures at hand. Therefore, the hearers simply laugh and agree. If one cannot harmonize the Scriptures on a topic, then it should never be presented as doctrine demanding an “amen”.
You bring up a REALLY good point. I would take it a step further: If Calvinism is true, how is the Bible different from any other book? All books are merely a piece of the master puzzle of ultimate truth. So what makes one better than another? What makes one author right and the other wrong? What makes WRONG wrong? There is no wrong because it's inevitably part of what is ultimately right.
Some video claims reviewed: 1Q. Determinism: God has predestined your thoughts and desires so that you can't do other than what you do. 1A. Determinism does not need to invoke God as the argument. Determinism argues that all decisions depend on prior events and are predetermined based on cause-and-effect relationships. You will do what you do and can't do otherwise, not because God made you do it but because your will is governed by internal conditions (spirit/mind) and external influences (environment/past). If you went back in time and restarted time, you (and everything and everybody) would repeat exactly down to the movement of atoms. So, if this is true, then people appear to have free will, but they make all decisions deterministically and can do no other. Quantum physics, not able to determine a quantum outcome, argues that there is not always a law of operation; rather, things can happen, perchance, by randomness. I agree with Einstein that God is not a God of chance banking on the dice roll. If the will makes decisions with a percentage of randomness, then, again, the decision is not under the person's control, not being caused by anything internal or external to it, and therefore, we again have no free will. Now, Christians know that God has ordered the universe by many Laws, which govern how everything operates. Nothing doesn't operate according to a Law that God ordained. An apple tree produces apples. A rotten apple tree produces rotten apples, meaning a wicked person acts wickedly and always will act wickedly. Pharaoh reacted to Moses and Aaron exactly according to his wicked intent; he could do no other. God used Pharaoh's wickedness, "For this very purpose I caused you to be raised up" (Rom 9:17), to demonstrate His power. Pharaoh was bound by his wicked nature (spirit); his reaction was deterministic in that sinful desires bound his will, and he could do no other. John 8:34 Jesus answered them, "I most solemnly say to you, everyone who lives in sin is a slave of sin. Mat_7:18 A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. 2Q. All things are sovereignly brought to pass under Calvinism. So, God brought about everything McArthur wrote just as he assured everything Paul wrote. There is no difference. 2A. In the original autographs, everything that Paul wrote was from the Holy Spirit, overshadowing Paul, yet using Paul's mental capacity, but lifting his spiritual ability beyond that which humans possess on their own. In other words, Paul was carried spiritually into realizations that he wrote that were beyond his own understanding, not by their own spirit (will). The short-lived spiritual gift of languages was a sign gift; those speaking did not know the language, but the Holy Spirit carried them along to speak apart from the will (mind) in them. McArthur wrote some unbiblical and wrong things because he was writing without God's inspiration. God did not prevent him from erring, but Paul was prevented. Then God certainly allowed McArthur to write, or he wouldn't have written. 2Pe 1:21 for prophecy was not at any time borne by the will of man, but being borne along by the Holy Spirit, holy men of God spoke. God deterministically allowed McArthur to follow his desires (based on the perfected spirit in him in tandem with the sinful desires of the flesh) and sometimes express his perfected spirit (writing truth) and sometimes the sinful biases of the flesh (unbiblical conclusions). But Paul was not controlled by fallen flesh. Only the mind of Christ controlled him when writing sacred text, as all authors of the Bible. There is a difference, a very large difference. God sovereignly allows people to follow their course by their nature, and God sovereignly overrules and restrains that nature so that a sinful person won't sin. Restraining sin is not "being borne along by the Holy Spirit." Permitting a wicked tree to produce wicked fruit does not make God the author of that fruit, nor is it God's will that they do so. Neither is it ordained by God that they must sin; it is deterministically resolved that the law of a fallen nature requires that nature be expressed. A dead spirit, when tempted, must react according to its nature, yielding lust and sin. God doesn't make the wicked sin. Their will is bound as a slave to do evil (which they desire) and can do no other (apart from the restraint by God). Jas_1:14 But each one is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed. 3Q. God works to do His will in me unless I suppress, avoid, or neglect the provision to avoid sinning He has brought to me. Sin is my choice. When I succeed, God did it by providing a way to avoid sin. 3A. Notice here that the proposal assumes that man has free will (just as McArthur assumes that man is bound by sin under the law). Yes, sin is a choice. For the Christian, there is "a way of escape" which may be answered in the next verse, "flee from idolatry," that is, get away from the thing tempting you. But the wicked heart is different than the regenerated spirit in the true believer, which can do good because of a living spirit that loves God. The wicked are without the ability to do good in themselves. They love the darkness (Satan, who is their spiritual father) and hate the Light (Christ). Therefore, the unbeliever (unregenerated) cannot choose NOT to sin. They are slaves to their darkness, which they adore. Tit 3:3 For once we too were without understanding, disobedient, misled, habitual slaves to all sorts of passions and pleasures, spending our lives in malice and envy. John 3:19-20 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. (20) For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. John 8:44 You are of your father, the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. So, an unregenerate person hates Christ because their will is turned toward doing evil. According to His purpose, God can restrain that evil intent or allow evil to become more evil. The Christian is different. It is God's good pleasure (because He loves those He Elected to save) to work in the believer His will (desire). When God tests you, if you sin, it is because you chose to obey your fleshly desires. If you do not sin, it is because God is working in you to will and work His good pleasure, which includes His indwelling Spirit and the free gift of a perfect spirit that loves God. Php_2:13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure. Does man have the power to suppress, avoid, or neglect the desire of God to do something? If we have a free will that God will not violate, then the answer must be yes; we can frustrate God's plan. Rather, we can overcome the wicked desires of the flesh by the power of God's indwelling Spirit. Otherwise, the wicked would not be bound to their sin and could do good out of their own will, apart from Christ, like a dead man rising to life under their own power, which is impossible. It is the nature of the Christian to be led by the Spirit of God that "give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you" (Rom 8:11). Rom 8:13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. That means the unbeliever lives under the law of the flesh. Everything they do is displeasing to God, "Those who are in the flesh can't please God" (Rom 8:8). The believer is alive in Christ, and therefore, it is "by the Spirit" that the believer can "put to death the deeds of the body." If you don't sin -- all the glory goes to God, none to you. If you sin, all the shame goes to you, none to God. Where is the free will? Sin is your choice, but it is the only option you will choose apart from the Spirit's controlling influence. That is not free will when it requires God's Spirit in you to "put to death the deeds of the body." I think it best to agree with Paul. The spirit in the Christian delights in God's law after the inward man (the spirit) but the flesh warring is beyond our control. Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord! So then with the mind, I myself serve God's law, but with the flesh, the sin's law. Only God working in us to do His will enables us to serve God's law and not the law of sin. That is not free will but a will that is at war. If it weren't for God working in the Christian, the desire to sin would bring us back "into captivity under the law of sin." Rather than a free will that chooses its own desire to not sin, we have the power of God at work restraining sin by His Spirit. At other times, God permits us to act according to the flesh to remind us that we are wholly dependent upon God.
I thank my former Calvinistic pastor who in the days following 9/11 included a flyer in our Sunday bulletin by John piper explaining that we should all take comfort in the fact that it was ordained by God. I knew right there and then that piper was a false teacher and that calvinism is a poor excuse for biblically sound doctrine.
@@laserfalcon if you murdered his family he would accept it as God ordained. Because all things happen by God's sovereign decree and are designed to ultimately bring him glory. That's why we never need be worried or anxious about anything, see?
LaserFalcon I think you missed my sarcasm. I don’t believe that! And you’re right that would be an evil god I would not consider worthy of any kind of praise or glory. But the God of psalm 117 sure is.
Ben Beam, Calvinist are one of the most deceived people in the planet... They believed that they are the Elect because they believe in Calvinism... Bur the the bible fact is: They know Only Half of the Truth of the biblical doctrine of: 'Election and Predestination'....
@@livingwater7580, You said: ''predestination is the guaranteed future of believers not unbelievers'' Definitely because all the true children of God by heredity the elect(Sheep) have the character of God and all are believer because they believe and love their Father....
I absolutely believe that Calvinism resurges and then dies back out because Calvinism has some wonderful practices that the church needs to adhere to. I am not a calvinist but I have watched in my near 60 years of being in the church that the church gets away from teaching and they begin to entertain the masses. Calvinism they have adopted expository preaching and teaching and by doing so the word of God is actually being taught with the exception of determinism of course. More churches need to adopt expository teaching and preaching and they can have the best of both worlds with topical preaching and expository verse by verse preaching and in doing this they are more likely to get the whole counsel of God. I have had many conversations about this with people and churches that mostly teach by the practice of topical teaching they do not get into the depth of the word of God and because people don't read their Bibles like they should a lot of these churches with a pastor that only preaches topical messages they lack biblical doctrine.
It's interesting that you would talk about the surging of Calvinism. Dr Phil Stringer is about 70 years old He was raised in the household of a hyper Calvinist. He said at one place that he has seen three surges of Calvinism. You're correct
If someone would take the time to read the anti Nicene fathers before Augustine introduce predeterminism, then you will not see deterministic theology concerning salvation. They were unanimous and unified in the doctrine of free will. I believe it's important to learn from men who were closer to the apostles then man that were further away.
Thank you for this. I had arrived at this exact position based on my own reading and understanding of scripture. Last week I had posted on FB that I reject Calvinism (and Armeniasm!) You make profoundly logical and well considered arguments. I need to look more into your teachings and understandings.
Dr. Flower renouncing Tulip just makes me realize God has a great sense of humor! I've been at McArthurs Church and I agree with Dr. Flower's point! For sure Jesus Rose again!
God bless you, brother. Thank you for your ministry. We’re supposed to love God with all our being, including our mind. If our minds are told to embrace logical contradictions, we are de facto undermining the very thing we’re called to do, to love him with all our heart, strength , soul, and MIND.
It’s simple, God is not limited by time. Before God created anything He knew who would choose Him by their own free will. So by creating people, he predestined this free choice which in His existence was happening at that moment. Free will was not violated and Gods sovereignty is not violated. Our works are also predestined but or choice to do those works is not. The works will get done but who does them is open to who is willing. That is why rewards are earned.
Oh I almost clap 👏 too in 15:55 when brother Leighton threw a very good Philosophical argument to stay non determinism until God determined you to be otherwise just in case determinism is wrong. 👏 But it as a clap from the audience of Mc.
Appreciate the video sir. I gotta say I have watched a lot of MacArthur and Sproul and when I was saved actually found them first. I like their exposition of scripture but as you said the looming nature of Calvanism seemed to always poke in a detract from the gospel. I also disagreed with the idolization of church fathers that seemed to happen a lot. Through my own study I came to the same conclusion that you presented. If you picture the world as darkness and the Lord allows his light to expose all the world, that doesn't stop sinners from running from the light or hiding (as if you can hide). In that scenario God is still the one causing salvation because he allows himself to be revealed, but man can still choose to run from him. I never did understand why Gods sovereignty and mans free will had to be at odds. Mans free will exists within the confines of Gods will.
Amen! Just because God has given us the privilege to choose does not diminish God's sovereignty! God gives every man the chance, the opportunity to be saved. He does not pee-condemn some men to hell. Those who go to hell chose not to believe in the finished work of Jesus. They have no one to blame but themselves.
My view is simply this, the Bible says what God wants is to know of Him, I don't like titles, I just call myself a Bible believing Christian, I don't put none of my own interpretations, I pray and learn, too much confusion in the church, I worship God alone
I am a former Reformed Presbyterian Calvinist. I was one for 57 of my 63 years. In all that time, I truly remember only two people who had a heart for the lost. The rest of them love to make silly jokes as did McArthur did at the start of this clip. At one point McArthur was not even a five point Calvinist. Presbyterian Calvinists all have their favorite theologian that they quote much of the time. Listen to how he actually berates the audience. Christian leaders should not do these things. Micah 6:8
Thank you for this brother! It's difficult to articulate provisionism when asked "are you Calvinist or Arminian?" It's a silly dichotomy, and I can see people's frustration when I say "neither". I like using an analogy; If when we stand in front of God at the end and ask "Lord, did I choose this or was I always going to end up here?" He will smile and simply say "....yes, now come and sit at my table." Also, "who wrote Romans"? (Technically it was Tertius 😏) I Tertius, who wrote this letter, greet you in the Lord. Romans 16:22
@@LEGASItv He has another issue you should be aware of, because it bothered the heck out of me. He states that a person can receive the mark of the beast and still be saved in direct contradiction of Revelation 14. He has many good teachings, but he has been elevated to a crazy, high place in modern Christianity, despite some poor teachings too. Just saying.
I think the important thing for general public that need to be clarified is whether different opinion / view on this matter will affect one's salvation.
Ezekiel 18, makes it quite clear that I am personally responsible i.e. I have free will to make choices and beare responsibility for what I choose. In the last verse God reminds me what a good choice will ... but I must choose, free will.
The Calvinism with which I am familiar would say God predestines the elect for salvation ...that salvation is all of God (monergism) When it comes to temporal decisions we have free will to choose where to work, who to marry, where to live, etc - that is not total determinism. Regarding salvation the Bible clearly says God chooses the elect-I chose you - you did not choose me. I do not know Calvinism as total determinism in all things. God can use all things that he has not determined for good. Did God make/determine that Josephs brothers would sell him into slavery? No, God used Their evil choice to ultimately bring about the saving of God’s people from starvation and later freeing them from slavery in Egypt.
In my 30 years of being a believer. I have gone from a reformed Church to assembly of God churches to independent charismatic churches and now back to reformed. I have seen that the reformed churches teach much more biblically sound doctrine and rightly divide the scriptures and are very good at studying the scriptures. The other churches are all about emotions and experiences. I've seen a lot of these churches that I used to go to have turned very weak and now have accepted the culture and wanting to accept all kinds of immorality in their churches. Excluding the reformed churches.
One doesn't have to be calvinist to become sound in doctrine. Unfortunately, I have seen quite a few people swing from the horrible teachings and practices of Charasmatics, to tge deadly poison of Calvinism for the very reasons you describe. Again,a person can be sound in both doctrine and practice without falling into the error of Calvinism.
Thank you for this brother. I find the Calvanist argument so weak and have noticed that they always end up saying "you just haven't understood it yet" without any scripture to support this Greek philosophy fatalism. I abhor the evil of this false doctrine and so we must cleave to the right teaching of scripture in that Christ died for all, He would have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of truth and God is not willing that any should perish and that all come to repentance. Preach that gospel to all you can brethren and God bless!
There are way too many scriptures that speak about God determining what happens in history, apart from any of mankind’s actions, for me to believe in this provisionism idea. If God allows history to be brought about by what we end up doing, if He didn’t determine the beginning from the end without any input from us, God is no longer God, we are. Besides Calvinism, I’ve never heard any other group give a proper biblical answer to this one question. If we were dead in our trespasses and sins like Ephesians 2:1 says, how did we raise ourselves spiritually from the dead to then have the ability to have faith in God? Did you use your power and free will to one day say, arise self and believe in Jesus now? Or, did God have to initiate the relationship that you now have with Him? If He did, that throws absolute free will out the window. And if it says in Romans 6:20 that before I was saved I was a slave to sin, a slave. That doesn’t sound very free to me. Maybe a limited free will to choose what sins I wanted to commit. I could agree with that. But surely one in that state, separated from God, you wouldn’t say they are able to do righteous acts pleasing to God, would you? Since you preach they have absolute unrestricted free will.
I'm so tired of Calvinists saying that some of their beliefs are just mysterious and that they don't need to harmonize different "truths," especially when there are other soteriological systems that can
“I give God the glory for the help he gives me” -Flowers Isn’t that a prideful statement. Shouldn’t you be giving God the glory for all the good in your life? He doesn’t just help, He changes you to do the good. This is a statement that shows you take pride in your good works and believe God only is a factor in helping you. Psalm 115: Not to Us, but to Your Name Give Glory Dr. Flowers continues to go on saying: “I don’t think God has to effectually call you to do something in order for God to get all the glory for you doing that good thing that he’s provided you the means to do” Well his previous comments, stated above, shows Dr. Flowers does not give God all the glory as he stated he gives God the Glory for only helping him. There’s a big difference in giving God glory for helping compared to giving God glory for the entirety.
Amen.... Glory belongs to God...it has never left him and never will In fact when you are a witness to the miracles God works in us through His Holy Spirit, we ought ALWAYS to point to / acknowledge God's Glory rather than declare that "We Give God Glory - as though we ever could - He is glorified through us NOT by us" Romans 11 33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”[j] 35 “Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?”[k] 36 For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.
That isn't what Flowers said. He didn't say he ONLY gives God glory for helping and not for the outcome.... The Bible is one huge book in which God pleads with, asks and guides people to do what He wants. Why would He waste his breath if He's just controlling our every choice? He created everything and knows it all down to the last subatomic particle from all of time and beyond. Yet He obviously decided to let us make our own ultimate choice. He gave Adam and Eve the choice. He knew already what they would choose and what you will choose. But He gives you the choice. He doesn't determine it. If He did, he wouldn't bother with sending Himself to live here as a man or writing a book instructing you.
Things as I see them about Calvinists and Arminianists (from Luke 18:9-14) : And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee (put Calvinists and Arminianists here), and the other a publican (put those who read or listen the bible and put their faith in Jesus Christ repent and obey his commandments, which is a born again, here). The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. (Clavinist: I proudly was elected / predestined, Arminianist: I proudly decided to repent) I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
I've seen his study Bible and its really just a modern version of the Geneva. That is everything is strained through the filter of Calvinism and viewed through smoke and mirrors. MacGician (Magician) could be his theology.
@Deb Harris The "works" question is a tough one. Yes they claim to be virulently anti-works BUT in practice in daily life they are extremely legalistic which is "works". In claiming to keep the Sabbath they incorporate all kinds of rules to govern all kinds of petty activities. This makes them feel they are keeping the Sinai covenant commandment. However, since their knowledge is so shallow they don't understand they violate the Sabbath every Sabbath. They are not taught all the Sabbath rules the Israelites were given. So in their attempt to be righteous they fall way short way short because of ignorance. But the flip side is you'll never convince a True Believer in Purest Calvinism that they are wrong, because they cannot be wrong since they possess the one true religion.
@@Baltic_Hammer6162 yeah I threw that bible away when I saw his commentary on john 3:16. And this man believes u can take the mark of the beast. Stay away from this man. All I can say.
Here's verses that make absolutely no sense if everything is predetermined before the creation of the world: "Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." 1 Peter 5:8 and "Therefore stay awake-for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning" Mark 13:35 How could anyone not have freewill if we must stay awake sober, be watchful, for when the "master comes"
Calvinism is craziness.... did God choose before time began to have my Calvinist friend live in Adultry. No! But he can still work it together for good. Romans 8:28
It's maddening how often Calvinists appeal to mystery or to paradoxes in scripture. What they can't see is that their faulty presuppositions is what causes the paradoxes or appeals to mystery. They can't fathom questioning if their interpretation of scripture might be influenced by a faulty premise in the first place. It's maddening. I'm so sick and tired of Calvinism. It's a shallow, weak, and foolish theology. There are better interpretations out there that don't have to appeal to mystery.
@@Baltic_Hammer6162 well I think John MacArthur knows the Bible very well indeed, yet he says he can't explain it all - it's a mystery - (give him a break), is what he said.
@@kimberleerivera7062 No, he does not. If he did he wouldn't be chronically saying the off bubble stuff he does, like the blood on the Cross never saved anyone.
@@kimberleerivera7062, it's the fact that MacArthur has to appeal to mystery because of his systematic proves that he doesn't truly know his Bible. He's not infallible. He is reading a presupposed view into the scriptures and won't admit it.
The problem highlighted here is the tip of the iceberg of Evangelicals taught early and often to engage the pastor and not the text. Evangelical paternalism has led to passive followers shouting incoherent slogans. Now don't get me wrong, I thing the Evangelicals are closer to the truth of the text than any other Christian church and I have been an Evangelical since 1975. But when I ask my fellow Evangelicals to think and offer arguments supported by premises supported by the Biblical data, I get sweeping generalizations, mass appeals, strawman arguments, appeals to ignorance (like we see in this video). Dr. Flowers is doing a great service to help people evaluate claims and learn to think for themselves. We want to evaluate claims not attack the man (ad hominem) even though John MacArthur is constantly attacking his fellow Evangelicals, we are not to follow his lead! MacArthur gets texts and doctrine right often. So do other Calvinists like James White, R.C. Sproul, D.A. Carson. We want to mature intellectually and eliminate these blind, mindless appeals to God's mystery (e.g. God loves all not wanting anyone to perish but determines before he creates them that they will be damned for eternity), that are the opposite of how Jesus engaged the ideas in scripture. Jesus does not tell us to just trust him when we encounter incoherent ideas. He doesn't appeal to mystery. There are no married bachelors in Jesus' world view. There are no round squares or determined free individuals. God's knowledge is not a function of him creating a world of marionettes on a play that he wrote out where evil and suffering are all a function God's design. These preachers who so conflate God's character should have no followers. They are like health and wealth preachers, and yet God saves some under their care, so he allows it. Shoot even Joel Osteen stumbles across a biblical truth from time to time.
John 1 refutes Calvanism. Christ is the light which lights EVERY man which enters the world. John 3 says "this is the condemnation, men love darkness rather than light" men either chose the light or stay in the darkness. It's their choice. Condemnation is based on their choice.
I believe in the sovereignty of God the free will of man when one responds to the grace of God by the work of the word and the Spirit of God i become the chosen of God
“I was preparing to go to Nyack College. Before I left there was one burning question I had in mind, and I went to Dr. Tozer and said, Could you give me some advice concerning the problem of Calvinism versus Arminianism?” And I’ll never forget the advice he gave me. At the time I thought it was rather inconclusive and not too helpful. But I listened carefully. He said, my son, when you get to college you’re going to find that all of the boys will be gathered in a room discussing and arguing over Arminianism and Calvinism night after night after night. I’ll tell you what to do, Cliff. Go to your room and meet God. At the end of four years you’ll be way down the line and they’ll still be where they started, because greater minds than yours have wrestled with this problem and have not come up with satisfactory conclusions. Instead, learn to know God.” In Pursuit of God The Life of A.W. Tozer, James L. Snyder page 132
Thank you for sharing this. Exactly what I needed.
Very wise advice. I've heard something similar. God gives us everything we need to accomplish what He wants us to accomplish, and understanding exactly how God does things doesn't appear to be one of them. Baaa, so I'll go baaack to doing what I can with what little I have and try to stay in my lane....we really are like sheep
That is perfect. We are having this discussion right now as our church has turned hard towards Calvinism. I have said both Calvinism and Arminianism are the ideas of men. I’d rather focus on the Bible and see what God says.
@@miken8143 That is what John Calvin did and then He wrote down what the Bible teaches.
Yup. This channel is a waste of time. Exactly. Go read a Bible and do what it says and let this guy reach nobody.
Been listening to your Sot. 101 for a few years now, and learned a lot about Cal. that I didn’t know before. Thank you for all you’ve done. Yet at the end of the day, after the warm breezes of Calvinists and non-Calvinists fade away, there are three things that I’m very grateful for:
1) “If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
2) “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Romans 10:9, 13.
“And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”
Phil. 4:7.
Thank God he has also made the matter easy to understand.
Amen to that
Well put. Yackiteeyak all you like, It’s great to keep your minds sharp; however, Salvation is what matters. Those conversations that may confuse and cause division should be entered into with caution, and the fruits of the spirit and ask for Gods guidance.
I simply have faith in a person (Jesus)who keeps his promise,not in a place (Heaven). Faith in Him not it...and certainly not myself.
You cannot say "JESUS IS LORD" and believe it unless the HOLY SPIRIT has put that truth in your heart.
@@frederickneese6382 I believe this, too - additional simplicity: Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." I'm truely grateful for receipt of this gift. It has helped me throughout my growing closer to God and in learning to "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus...." Phil. 2:5
I almost got sucked into the whole calvinism thing… but I kept praying and praying that God would show me the truth because it was destroying my joy. Thank you so much
Go listen to Mike Desario on "holdingfirmly" YT channel. Start with
his "suppression the truth in righteousness" vid.
It expans calvinism-lutheranism with historical proofs what it is when where. It's short yet full of facts so you will see why McCartherism -calvinism is demonic from its root in the 3rd century,
thx to Augustine-Constantine. Those evil men did.
Yep. Me too.
I did get sucked into it, and it almost ruined my life. All it takes is for one to fall into sin and they start to doubt their "election" and it can cause you to lose hope and leads to more sin. It is a works based salvation where a man's transgressions or righteousness becomes the measurement used to determine the eternal state of the individual. Dangerous stuff that has a lot of well meaning people messed up.
i’d say keep digging. the doctrines of grace are true. i was opposite of this guy i was a Arminian for 12 years. there are too many holes. Salvation comes from the Lord alone. if you get a chance check out James White he really knows his stuff. The scripture is very clear. best wishes!
@@stuallen8864 I used to listen to James White stuff a lot… I’ve come to a different conclusion. This guy is not an Armenian, he’s a provisionist
I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian. I'm a Christian. Thank you Dr. Flowers for making this issue clear.
P.s. meaning, I follow neither man--Calvin nor Arminius. I believe in Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of the Living God!
The explanation of Flowers is Very Clear to you? ....when you denied the sovereignty of God...when their text that clearly is explaining the sovereignty of God, but you don't accept them, what Macarthur is saying is that he accept those passages because they are very clearly talking about the sovereignty of God, even though are difficult to accept, he won't dare to change the meaning intended .
Your one or the other
@@patiduran2438 not true
@@Enel-nz3yz oh very true. Your just to prideful to accept the truth SMH. Try reading the Bible
@@patiduran2438 You need to learn more theology and we all need to read your Bibles more. You can be a Molinist. 🤦🏾♂️ oh and where in the Bible does it say that I am one or the other. 🤔
I think so many today are ignoring the simplicity of just reading the bible ourselves, not bringing our pre-conceived ideas along, and just trusting the Holy Spirit, prayerfully to teach us all things. Pray that God will lead you to the truth no matter where that leads. Hunger for the truth and once the Lord reveals truth to you, then have back bone and don't fear men.
Amen! Well said, friend!
Amen! I agree, very well said.
So you propose to compose your own message of salvation based on your personal understanding of Scripture? Do I understand you correctly? Well, that is exactly what Calvin was doing, my friend... don't you see this? Don't you see that you are following your own ideas and opinions? The Gospel is not for us to compose, my friend: it is rather for us to accept.
It is hard to believe. What you propose is the very definition of Protestantism, which grants each man his own gospel compilation. Division squared: one gospel for each man. Wake up!
That's not what he/she said. The message reads, "Read the Bible prayerfully asking the help of the Holy Spirit."
Why follow the 'word' of just another human or voice which the internet is saturated with.
@@pierreschiffer3180 The Lord rebuke you for twisting @2ndbirth's words. John Calvin in his institutes said that he proposes his (man-made) system for people to read the Bible through. Yet, you denigrate the person who posted this. Shame on you.
“For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”
1 Corinthians 14:33 KJV. Keep up the great work!
What does that verse have to do with this topic? "Confusion" in 1 Corinthians 14:33 simply means disorder. It has nothing to do with a lack of understanding.
LOL - this gentlemen talks about eisegesis and then quotes 1Cor.14:33 like you just gave him credit for.
That verse has to do with the Apostle Paul addressing churches that are speaking in tongues and just going wild with what they "feel"; this is not about confusion regarding election or God's sovereign will.
Proverbs 16:4 God created even the wicked for the day of evil and that's why he allowed sinning to the world so we can be sons and daughters of God through the cross of Jesus it wasn't just a free will choice. Then it's in the flesh which is not pleasing to God Romans 8:8.
God is not the author of confusion. He leaves that to guys like John MacArthur and Fred W. Phelps.
@@robanddawnramcharan6408 😂😂😂 Foreal
God created and maintains his universe. Whether Arminianism or Calvinism, God is worthy to be praised!
…Or Provisionism!
As if anyone could rob Him of His glory that some might think. But if there’s a belief that does seem to give Him more or much glory from man’s perspective, it is provisionism. Because the Calvinist god needs man to defend His sovereignty. The provisionist recognizes He is truly sovereign because even man’s freedom given to Him by God Himself to choose can’t thwart Him or His plan. Not only that but actually use man’s free will to bring Him much glory by still getting His will done.
@Blessed Christians. Followers of Christ and
Christ ONLY! :)
@Blessed but God is worshiped in Spirit and truth, did you understand? Not in lies
@@fletchermoorman7900 exactly! This point Alone is enough to break down irresistible grace. Grace is not a sentient entity which means that if it were irresistible then it would have to get that quality from God which means God himself would be irresistible but that idea is decimated in Genesis alone when man willingly rebels against God. The claim of being irresistible is exclusive. You can not be irresistible and resistible at the same time in the same context. Man can choose because he was given the ability to do so by God. This is why there is no way to strip God of his glory, because even if you resist him you are simply exercising an ability that was given to you by God essentially operating within the confines of the reality he has created.
Excellent title: Calvinism's contradictions "Explained" by John Mc Arthur.
And here is the "Explanation":
I don't know
Why don't you have a go at "explaining" the infinite mind and wisdom of Almighty God? And don't even think about using the phrase "God would never..."
@@jacobbarnett8495
Well, when I don't know about something, I don't speak, unlike the
Calvinists bark of their stupid theology All the time and frame anyone who opposes it, as if they're against the sovereignty of God, and preach on it so boldly.
But when you ask for explanations, either they will appeal to "mystery", which is what gnosticism is all about- gnosis, hidden knowledge, or they'll give some of the most ridiculous things you'll ever get to get in theology.
Where is your boldness, when it comes to explanations?
@@albinsiby729 Not understanding the infinite mind of God as a mortal human being is quite different from not knowing if something is true. Scripture is clear on these issues. The mystery does not lie in how God saves His people. That is quite plain. The mystery is why he would save any. I would boldly debate all five points with you until the grave if I had the time. If you made an effort to look, there is plenty of explanation by theologians much more prepared and qualified than me, using proper exegesis unlike some who pluck 1 John 2:2 out of context and completely reject its obvious connection and parallel to John 11:51-52 (among countless other instances of disturbing eisegesis)
Also read the book of Job.
@@jacobbarnett8495
And regarding the book of Job, Calvinists should be afraid. Because God says in Job 42:7 -
"My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has."
His anger burned Against them because they misportayed God, and Calvinists do exactly that when they paint HIM in such horrible light by their theology.
@@albinsiby729 I'd say that it paints God in a horrible light to think that he is so weak that he must subject himeslf to man's will. You don't think he can save those whom he purposes to save, and you dont think he can hold on to them until the end?
Amen brother!!!
“Stay a non-determinist until God makes you a determinist”- I will carry that little nugget of wisdom all of my days! Thank you brother!
When I started exploring Christianity, I visited a number of local protestant churches with few preconceived notions of doctrine etc. I started attending one quite regularly, even joined a Bible study group, and it wasn’t until 18 months in that I realized, these folks are all Calvinists. When I asked why they never talk about it, they said they want to be welcoming and inviting to all - milk before meat and all that. I think it’s because if people knew what they believed from the start, they’d run the opposite direction.
Jm505, that's exactly true! Run, run, run!
The main reason many "run" from Calvinism is that belief (Reformed Theology) challenges much of what they have been taught, and have come to believe. That takes place in looking at any concepts (not just religous) that you have come to embrace, when those concepts differ from, or oftentimes oppose, what you believe. We want to remain "comfortable" with our various beliefs, and fear enters into the picture when they are challenged.
@@soldier7332 Apparently, you have not studied or perhaps even read the Book of Genesis - that is where the basics of Calvinism (Reformed theology) got its roots, and it is supported throughout the Bible.
@@77ronboy You say that people run from Calvinism because of the paradigm they bring to the table. If that's true then how come you never see a Calvinist witnessing to people pushing the doctrine they believe in? I can see it going something like this. "Have you heard the good news of the Gospel? Let me tell you about it. For God loves each and everyone of us, well not all of us. Some of us he put on this earth specifically condemned to hell. So make sure you accept our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as your personal savior so you can be sure to never know if you may or may not be one of the elect of the Kingdom of Heaven. So until your dying day you'll never be secure in your salvation because you are so wretched you wouldn't know good if God put it on you." I could keep going, but the point is no Calvinist ever shares the gospel like this because regardless of paradigm you would turn and run from a doctrine like this.
@@shanefrederick4012 Shane - a very interesting reply, but I will share a couple of points. As you've stated the Calvinistic stand, I would run from it myself, but your description does not fit what Calvinists believe. They "should" share the gospel in the same manner that anyone of a different faith would. There would be two effects however. The one whose heart has not been prepared to receive it, would reject it. The one whose heart has been prepared to receive it, would receive it. If it is received, then that person [knows] he/she is a child of God, and does not have to live wondering about their destination in their next life. It seems to be that most of those who reject Calvinism (I prefer Reformed Theology), do so because they don't really know what that doctrine entails. They know just enough of the "tough" stuff to scare them away. Other doctrines do not provide a feeling of security as they promote the idea of their continuing efforts to live a life of pleasing God in order to reach Heaven. Those ideas are actually "works-based" when Salvation is actually a "free lunch" for those who are His children.
Thank you so much for making videos and explaining these issues. My husband and I met right before he had a crisis of doubt where he became a calvinist and now holds a supralapsarianist and conditionalist position. Unfortunately he now believes that most people (me, our Christian families & friends) aren't saved. Your videos have made it seem possible for me to have a conversation with him and they have given me hope. About to binge watch all of your videos now and send them to our families!
Please stop listening to mere mortal men telling us how to think about God and theology and Just listen to God's Holy Spirit while reading God's word.
Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Didn't Jesus say unless we come to Him as a little child we have no part in Him?....
Matthew 18:3
@@georgemoncayo8313 so there's no such thing as Free Will according to this belief system? I'm trying to understand what Calvinism is about....
Sorry to hear, it took me a while to realize just how evil Calvinism is. They are very works related at the same time. At least he’s not atheist, just read and pray with him and God will change his heart.
I did far worse and married an unbeliever, it’s been a long road but she’s finally saved
supralapsarianism, which I had to look up, is the essence of Calvinism
How nice for MacArthur that he doesn't have to worry about Calvinism's contradictions since he's conveniently one of the Elect chosen in eternity past. It may not be his problem, but for discouraged young Christians struggling with their faith, who know they're headed for hell, it's giving them nightmares.
Calvinism is so full of contradictions and paradoxes that it renders God's love and justice a mystery beyond our comprehension. This is what very nearly drove me away from the Christian faith, and *succeeded* in driving away two of my sisters.
IMHO, Calvinism is man made philosophy.
It's also what led Calvin himself to commit atrocities that showed his appetite was for the Earth and its fulness. Or maybe it was that mercenary self-interest that led to his writing of his institutes.
@@robcallicotte5786 what kind of atrocities did he do? Im going to look it up
@@mlady8137, the city of Geneva ("Here we have no continuing city") has history you can research of things not following Jesus. As for Calvin, he helped one of his friends (Servetus) to die as a heretic. Many other things not hard to find. You can do a little research.
Idk how you don’t have more subs, you are such a clear thinker, unreal teaching. Thank you dr. Flowers
Because narrow is the way
So true
Carnal thinker, not biblical thinker, but if you are in the flesh you'll like the thinking of Flowers, but if someone is a biblical thinker they will dislike Folwer’s thinking
@@jessejimenez1793 I am glad I'm not the only one who seen the wholes is this way of thinking, He is comparing the gift of God of eternal life, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross to pay for your Sins to one of you kids using a computer for the wrong reason and not the reason it was intended? Really? How can if God gives you the gift of salvation by Grace through Faith in Christ be misused? That salvation and gift is a one way ticket, the ONLY part you play in the entire process from start to finish is that of being in the receiving end, otherwise God didn't do it ALL but you assisted. What did Jesus say multiple times in the bible? No one can come to me unless my Father draws him. In Greek of that day that word draw is DRAG, its also used when talking about dragging of the fishing nets, basically what Jesus is saying that the nature of the fallen man is so severe that God has to drag us to him to save us.
@@jessejimenez1793 you need Jesus
Plrase dont stop opposing Calvinism! We need your help more than ever!
Calvinism has always confused me because God is love. What is love? A simple answer would be, it is to willfully put another's interests ahead of your own. Can you love someone out of force, can you compel someone to love another, can love be love without choice? My answer to those three questions, and I think the Bible supports this, is no. Now you cannot force or compel someone to love another, you cannot love without choice. So if God loves us, and he wants us to love him, then he cannot compel us to love him, nor can we compel him to love us. God loves us because all of creation was done out of God's love for us. God chose to limit his power and give us free will, the ability to choose, knowing we will make mistakes and separate ourselves from himself. As a parent I experience this with my daughters all the time. I know they will separate themselves from me, they will sin against me, but I choose to love them, not because they have earned it but because I chose to do what's best for them without any care for how it affects me. You cannot love in the Calvinistic world view.
Actually you can, and have the greatest love you’ve ever known.
@@jmbrown3502 can you explain further what you mean or perhaps how you view my definition of love as being incorrect or incomplete. Thanks
I am so glad I found this channel! You are such a blessing, Dr. Flowers! Praying for you and your ministry!
In the end, I believe that the topic deals with judging God's nature and intentions.... Calvinism declares that they know God's nature even when it denies other passages of scripture. Leighton's view is much more in line with all of scripture.
Calvinists don't believe they know God's divine intentions other than what the Bible says. Whatever it is you are a critic of is not Calvinism and that's true for this "doctor".
God bless you and continue to bless your loving ministry, Dr. Flowers.
This is so good my friend! These guys have been intimidating us youngsters for the last 20 years I’m grateful to Holy Spirit to finally see someone brave enough to put these haughty attitudes down-Crushcrush
I feel like God is red pilling me. I was a staunch Calvinist 2 days ago. Not anymore! Thank you!!!
Hey! I would also recommend that you check out what Dave Hunt has written and spoken on the subject of Calvinism. He's got some really great content over on the Berean Call!
Sorry for your loss. Will be praying for you!
@@angelt.5276 I wish Dave Hunt was still with us.
@@mr.f6912 That was predestined by God, why pray? It'll reverse if God has determined! Right?
@@T.Ravikumar good question! Common question, Joel Berle has a great sermon on this topic I’d recommend. I’d also in a short manner in this comment suggest this: why pray for anyone’s salvation if God is not sovereign over that? He won’t save anyone against their will according to those who disagree with the Doctrines of Grace. But I️ pray as Jesus taught me to pray. “Your will be done.” Great question though, R.C. Sproul has some other great resources on this and even Costi Hinn with For the Gospel Ministries. Hope that helps!
Atlast! I’ve been waiting for someone who will stand against calvinism.
I felt the same way! Kevin Thompson, Mike Winger, Robert Breaker & Jesse Morrell all have fair & edifying commentaries on the error of calvinism.
the calvinist theology is so confusing... doesn't make sense
@@succubus20y Consider the possibility that Calvinist Theology not making sense - is accomplished through a process known as Voluntary Cognitive Distortion.
It starts with the Calvinist mind being conditioned to accept determinism as TRUE. And deterministic thinking is classified as a cognitive distortion - because a determinist MUST live *AS-IF* determinism is FALSE in order to have any degree of normalcy.
The Calvinist mind becomes conditioned to automatically treat determinism *AS-IF* it has the attributes of IN-determinism.
This is a form of Voluntary Mental Conditioning which introduces cognitive distortion. Once the conditioning takes hold - the mind automatically treats certain things that are FALSE *AS-IF* they are TRUE. And treats certain things that are TRUE *AS-IF* they are FALSE.
You as an outsider watching the results - recognize it as not making sense. But once the Cognitive distortion takes effect within the Calvinist mind - it becomes the only pattern his mind can think in.
Does that make sense? :-]
@Gavin Riley Being delivered from Calvinism's mental ensnarement is totally wonderful!! Thank you Gavin - for sharing that! And may the Lord continue to set you free!
@@dw6528 wow! Voluntary cognitive distortion. This is probably the most insightful TH-cam comment I've ever read!
I still listen to 20 hours+ per week of sermons by pastor John. I love his earnest attempt to confront false doctrine and keep to the teachings of scriptures. His general passion and honest conscientiousness is admirable.
HOWEVER, every time he talks about predestination and absolute determinism something inside me cringes. Like, of course God needs to be ABLE to have control, but humans have deligated spaces of authority (see Adam naming the animals - why would He express pleasure with people obeying him throughout scripture?). Im not set on either side of the argument for Calvinism or Armenianism, just wanted to share my thoughts so far in my journey :)
@Matt Mayuiers surprisingly I already started doing this. Also I found an answer for this. God exists outside of time. He isn't "was, is, them will be" he "was, is, AND is to come". God's sovereignty and free will paradoxes go away under this light :)
Thanks for your direction, I'll look into Aquinas!
@@Eraktab id stick with Jesus. he stated his case very clearly "all that come to me i will in no way cast out"
He is a good teacher on Christian principles
Please! It's not Calvinism vs Arminianism is Calvinism vs the Bible!
Any updates in your opinion on these doctrines?
This clip of MacArthur might be the best at demonstrating how callus he is towards people. Intellectual Christianity, not very relational. Compassion? Emotion? A heart connection to what he said about lost people? This is how the Calvinist operates...they can be really cold people! Cruel even in the name of correct doctrine. Dont we all have stories? I know i do! Live in this culture for a few years...then you will get it. It can border a cult-like feel. You are either in or you are out...almost business-like approach to managing people. They make the worst counselors as well which is a leak in this system. How conveniently JM flips over this contradiction. "It's not my problem..." He ain't losing any sleep in reflective thought.
This. This. This. When I came to Christ in college, I was innocent, I read the Bible for what it says, and I didn't search scripture for mysteries. Then over time, I became heavily influenced by Calvinism, not knowing what it was, but comfortable with its message explaining away all mysterious (ironically). I became a very angry, confrontational Christian, which ultimately cost me my marriage. Did God predestine that I would be influenced by man instead of his word? No. JM was one of my thought leaders, causing me to draw simple conclusions and isolate the interpretations brought forth by other Christians. I am still on a mission to find the truth between all the thought camps, but I now understand the danger of fallen men who think they have all the answers. The Bible alone is all we need for instruction and doctrine.
Man that's an accurate description😩
100 times yes! Calvinists are (not always), but some of the hardest, most callous and cold Christians I have ever met. And they often use the doctrine to justify a lifestyle of sin, even while "exalting the glory and sovereignty of God". One friend of mine admitted publicly that he became a Calvinist because that way he could sin and justify it - I was absolutely floored, and heartbroken.
@@Drspeiser sounds about right
I am just discovering you and your videos. Thank you so much for this work you are doing. I was completely put off by Calvinism when I started attending church as an adult. I had read a lot of the Bible before going to church. My church experience as a child was sparse…VBS’s and a brief time of attending church when the pastor and his wife would pick us up and take us to church.
But in my reading of the Bible it never occurred to me that God controlled every minute detail of peoples lives or that he predestined anyone for hell. It just isn’t a logical conclusion. But this doctrine especially in it’s full form is out right dangerous and blasphemous to the character and integrity to God. I know there are a lot of self professed “Calvinists” out there that don’t hold to all 5 points because I believe they recognize the fallacy. If Calvinism in all points is true, they devil really has little role an anything. God somehow becomes both the evil perpetrator and the savior. Anyone who has ever lived with an abusive manipulator will see this doctrine for what it is. Hopefully they will have enough Scripture and knowledge of Jesus to recognize it is completely false. If not they may reject the God of the Scriptures based on this false representation. Sadly the Calvinist would smuggly sit back and say, well I guess that one was appointed for damnation.
Again I know all that call themselves Calvinist aren’t so extreme. But I can say this. As a person who questioned and rejected Calvinism, but attended a church for 8 years that was Calvinist o now see that my thinking is very influenced by this false world view without even realizing it. This affects how I pray for people the level of hope I have for certain people if they can or will be saved. I had bought into the foreknowledge view as in Armenianism without knowing it.
This is so important. People who have suffered great evil at the hands of evil people will run from the Calvinist view of the Gospel. This is a HUGE stumbling block to faith. Thank you again for this important work.
I am looking forward to learning more.
I really appreciate the way you put this. It is so true that this Calvinist view does more harm than Good. I personally cannot reconcile the Calvinist view of God with the just and loving nature of God that I have come to know from reading my Bible. My spirit felt extremely unsettled when I learned about the views that Calvinists hold, because it purposely excludes certain people from salvation. It puts God in a position that makes Him seem like some sadistic being who created people to suffer and go to hell without any hope of being saved because they were not chosen and we're predestined to end up in hell. It makes people question their salvation. It creates an air of arrogance around those who believe that they were hand picked by God to be saved while others were rejected. I pray with all my heart that those who have lost their faith because of Calvinism may come to know God again and who He really is.
Thank you so much for this channel, I just recently happened to stumble upon it . I have been so bothered by the teachings of Calvinism for so long and go back and forth in my head but never persuaded to go along with it something about it just didn't feel right that's why I thank you so much for your Clarity because I think it's more than confusing what they teach it's downright defeating . So many people feel that they just don't measure up that they're not chosen so they walk away it's a very dangerous teaching in my view because it does not reflect the love of God as I understand it.
So are you says g that theHoly Spirit did not choose you?
Hey Dr. Flowers. This is one of the best videos that you've done. It's very informative and educational. I would like to see more like this one.
God tells us to choose life, if we could not He is a liar. Romans says man is without excuse, man knows there is a God. If you seek me with your whole heart you will be found of me. God says if you have not because you ask not. Ask for His help. I believe He knows what we will do, but we chose. The Bible says Jesus was tempted by the devil, if it wasn't possible He could have chosen wrong, He could not have been tempted.
“Deceiving, and being deceived”
that confusion came straight from the devil...and he knew that he just plunged that audience even further into confusion..laughing. I pray that many people will come out of this evil system.
I don't know how calvinists can even use the words "Deceiving and being deceived".
Neither would be possible if everything is predetermined 🤔.
I just heard a sermon by John MacArthur about the consequences of our choices. How strange is that 🤦♂️
Ouch. But maybe it's more like "wood, hay, and stubble." Ripped off from their reward, more or less but still saved, absolutely.
Agreed
@@djohnson3093 Well argued. Seducers and deceivers are out there, but couldn't we see them as outsiders to the Church, as all the non-Christian heresies. Do we have to jump right on each other. The basics of the Christian Faith are universal to all believers. Let's hammer those nails firmly and leave the brass tacks for theological discussion.
@@djohnson3093 what he’s really saying is: the consequences of our programming since we don’t have free will to make our own choices.
Back in the 90s I had read Dave Hunt’s “What Love is This” and wrote off Calvinism just from what Calvin did in Geneva without totally understanding his theology or should I say “Constructs” which thanks to men Ike you, I understand now. Then I read a book by MacArthur that discussed Lordship Salvation and it sounded good to me back the because I had been saved for 5 years(a baby). I mentioned the book to my pastor and he said LS was heretical. So I was done with MacArthur, but I never put it together that he was a Calvinist. It’s all getting clear to me now and why it is so popular and dangerous! Thanks for your ministry!
If after reading 'what love is this' by Dave Hunt about 2 years ago I knew for sure that calvinism was unbiblical. Great book.
Some of us read “What Love Is This” and became even stronger in Reformed Theology because it did such a poor job of exegesis!
@@JeremiahBlasi exegesis is good when studying scripture. Hunt wrote a book that was well referenced. The Holy Spirit, not Dave Hunt would have to convince someone that Calvinism 1-5 points is a false gospel.
Your pastor was incorrect.
@@Matt24_ The Five Points is not a Gospel! You are confused about what you are criticizing. I think Anti calvinists have an issue with the doctrine of the soverignty of God - they are angry at God for things in their lives, so they instead blame calvinism for emphasising the sovereignty of God. They fall back on the soverignty of Satan - something else.
In the vast majority of sermons John MacArthur preaches he speaks like an Arminian. Only when a sermon gets close to the ideas of Calvinism does he preach Calvinism. One sermon that is the most anti-Calvinist sermon he has is called “The Only Road To Heaven”. And it is an excellent sermon. Why he can’t see it baffles me.
Great comment there Brian. That's how you get an ear tickling message when these pastors act like this. A lot of these pastors have a message where just anybody could preach it and then there's certain messages that these people are the wrong ones to listen to. When it comes to salvation they got the wrong message.
@@jeffouellette9946 Thanks for your comment. What do you mean they have the wrong message on salvation?
McArthur’s arrogance should turn anyone away.
He's not an arrogant man. He just says what he's convinced about without trying to put much thought into it
@@unclebrayn that's the description of a fool.
Yup most Calvinist have that same arrogance problem
I don't think he's ignorant or stupid! It seems toe that he's stubborn!
Straight, no nonsense, basic logic. People with cogent and rational views are so few and far between these days, even among Christians. Thanks for this.
Thank you Dr. Flowers; I love listening to you regardless of the topic. It is a pleasure because of the healthy amount of love, humility and truth ringing from your voice. Two of my other favorite pastor/teachers to listen to are John Paul Jackson and David Pawson because they had this same meekness and humble authority in their voice. I imagine the same would have been true of Jesus, himself.
I really can't see Jesus giving any teaching in the same manner as Mr. MacArthur.
Kathrine J. Kozachok
I throughly enjoy David Pawson’s teachings.
It’s very sad That Calvinists have created a different god from the God of the Bible in their minds and worship him with much arrogance.
Very sad indeed, idol worship of a serial killer like John Calvin and blatant twisting and disregarding of the scriptures.
I pray for the scales to fall from the eyes of every person stuck in false doctrine for Christ’s sake
Yes! The humbleness is a fruit of the spirit and that resonates with my soul.
These guys are the most intelligent, intellectual human beings who have ever graced the planet, until you ask them about these contradictions. Then they are suddenly "why you asking my pea brain???"
The problem is when people try to make the Bible intellectual. The Bible is spiritual and not intellectual.
Thank you brother for your dedication to defending the truth.
I find that too many people are comfortable not caring about diving deeper in these truths that you bring up. The enemy has brought so much delusion to the church of God that needs to be weeded out!
The Bible clearly says that He knows the beginning from the end. We have free will but that doesn't mean He doesn't already know what choices we will make. I'm so tired of labels
So true. He knew me before I was born and if there’s a chance my parents didn’t get together I wouldn’t be born and he would only know potential people not actual people. Same with the future. He would only know potential possible futures not the actual future so there’s also a chance revelation wont exist because people have free will to do good. Seems there’s also a chance humans can never sin due to free choices.
Sir, I have never heard of you till today. I found this video to be very interesting and helpful. However I take exception to one thing you said. You challenged us to be bereans, and search out the best scholars of both sides. Sir, while I value scholarship, I take it that the Bereans searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so. I agree that the Calvinists, primarily, promote the false dichotomy that you can be either a Calvinist or Arminian. Both sides are not lacking in great scholarship. Therefore, scholarship is not the ultimate answer, but a return to Biblical truth and regarding the scriptures as commonly interpreted. In a way, I think the scholarship has been the problem. We have allowed traditions and philosophies of men to supersede the authority of scripture. If God gave us His word that it may be read, He gave it that it may be understood. Rather than waste time sinking either ship, I think we had rather run to the solid ground of the authority of God's perfect word, scholarship notwithstanding. I hope you receive this in the spirit intended. Thanks again, and God bless you!
you are indeed correct. but the problem is that we have ALL already been influenced by teachers and scholars and preachers, and we see scripture thru that lens even tho we dont realize it. the only way to combat that, is to study other points of view to force us out of our box. you are correct tho, that if someone has NEVER knwon anything about God, and just read the bible without any presuppositions, you would be neither a calvinist nor an arminian.
Do you thing that knowledge increases over time? Did we gain knowledge with the first 7 ecumenical church councils? They led to more accurate creeds and orthodoxy. Isn't it the nature of knowledge that it improves over time if one is focused on rationality rather than defending one's historical beliefs? Seems like your indictment of scholarship is too sweeping. Why not examine the scholarship for truth-value before throwing out scholarship that gets us closer to what the original audience would have understood a text to mean?
The notion that many good and conservative evangelical ‘scholars’ don’t approach the Bible with all its authority is beyond silly.
The problem is not lay/uneducated people or educated (“scholars”) reading the Bible - the problem is the reasoning used to unpack the biblical narrative
@@ubergenie6041 let God be true and every man but a liar
But without scholarship or searching the scriptures like bereans how will we discover truth?The minute you start interpreting you have become a scholar and berean,every one of us is a “scholar”.Scripture is not open to private interpretation, it is rather the private interpretation that creates differences not scholarship itself.We cannot get away from our fallen nature which will by its pride, arrogance and self righteousness obscure our interpretation.The reason why we differ is because we have free will,we are the authors of confusion and it is certainly not ordained by God as Calvinists suggest;aGod that brings all things to pass ,even confusion?Our differences prove free will .
Every Christian should watch this video at least once.
You have to also understand that a lot has change from the time John Calvin taught it and now. I am not a Calvinist as that would be like saying I am a MacArthurist. LOL. John Calvin was just a pastor like the rest of them. I do believe in the Doctrine of Election like John MacArthur but is it God's fault that people are going to Hell? NO, the Bible says in Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: AND Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) This is SO plain that by Adam sin entered into the world. NOW, did God see it long before? YES, and God allowed it to happen to finish HIS SOVEREIGN PLAN. If ALL are dead in SIN then the grace of God that saved the ELECT will a rescue from the HOLY JUST Judgement of God. It is like the Father telling His Son, "To save 'A REMNANT' of my creation, I WILL GUARANTEE they will come to you when YOU die on the cross". It was a gift from the Father to His Son as we see here.
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
Jesus was speaking of the 11 Apostles BUT look close at these next verses in John.
Now Jesus is speaking about all the ELECT.
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
but for them (THE ELECT) also which shall believe on me through their word.... THEIR WORD or through the words of the Apostles that wrote the New Testament (THE BIBLE).
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
the world (non believers) hath not known thee..... I WILL declare my name to the ELECT.
Since we DO NOT KNOW the elect or who they are we follow the command of the Bible.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
We preach to ALL MEN and leave the Elect up to God and His Sovereign Will.
Unlike Wretched Radio, Dr. Flowers doesn't turn off the comments when he challenges a position.
Cowards they are. Religious wimps.
@@timmantei2445 Wretched is properly titled. Todd worship Dr. Mac
You are right about the gaslighting. Calvinists do have a history of bullying anyone who disagrees with them. Many of them are very unloving and condescending.
Have you even read a man called Paul?
The greatest gifts we were given at birth are, breath, freewill and the ability to choose. These are not ours, they were given without even asking for them. BUT, In His wisdom, he wanted His children to love Him with a freewill and choose Him. He gets all the Glory!!
"God is not the author of confusion"
That was a mike drop moment.
Yes. Until you know Muslims love to quote that too! Especially regarding the Trinity.
Silly argument actually.
@@Lena.9 The difference is MacArthur was the one saying it's confusing. The video commentator only points out then it must not be from God. MacArthur sorta hurt his own argument.
@@Bulldog75stp Except that verse is talking about order versus disorder. Not confusing in this sense.
We love to use Bible verses like ammunition. It will hit at least somewhere. Yes, am guilty of this too.
Doesn’t make it less silly 😉
@@Lena.9 It's only by Gods word we can distinguish between right and wrong. Nothing silly about using what we're suppose to use for it's intended purpose.
@@Bulldog75stp You say that correct: it’s intended purpose.
These videos keep me sane. Thank you, Mr. Leighton. 😊
This inspired me to write a blog. Already started an entry about Calvinism. I just need a retreat from my usual routines to focus.
Hoping that I can be a contributor for people to be enlightened about this. I'd be willing to be identified as a non-Calvinist.
You really shouldn't need a pep talk from someone to calm down from any idiotic mess that makes no cohesive sense even to God. Cults throughout the world flourish because of knee-jerk reactions and emotional hurts that guide us rather than the kindness of a logical and reasonable God. Please consider reading the Bible to see what God says about himself (always in context) and pray for wisdom. God's Holy Spirit is available to everyone who is willing (and he can make us willing). You'll find you will be inexplicably drawn to the living Christ Jesus.
So well said. I was raised in a Calvinistic church. So I know all the answers that they give. You have shown the weakness of the core argument. That if God is absolutely sovereign, Then all books are determined by God not just the scriptures.
@RStark-ek7mh I have listened to James White and R C Sproul. The problem is that what they say does not match the scripture. You need to read the scripture in context and also understand the audience. So many of the calvinist proof texts sound convincing, until you realize that the audience is not all believers. Yet they are still saying that people have a choice to believe or reject. This is the core of calvinism. The inability from birth unless God supernaturally quickens you. But Paul tells us that faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
@RStark-ek7mh Some of the greatest students of the Bible in history would not agree with Doctor White. The answer is not as obvious as many would think. Read A.W. Tozer or C.S. Lewis.
So are you challenging the idea that God is absolutely sovereign?
I wonder if we're just getting too lost in random and abstract doctrines. I feel like the essence of Christianity is contained in the Sermon on the Mount and in the verses of scripture that deal with Christ's atonement. I think focusing on those areas is more productive than debating some of these other concepts.
Absolutely not. Not that those things aren’t good. We are dealing with false gospels, though. False teachings leading men to hell. Calvinism is one such doctrine. If all someone ever believed is Calvinism, they will split hell wide open. So no, this isn’t some “abstract doctrine”. We are discussing the core of our belief, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I have wrestled with this for years. Couldn't agree more! when I received Christ, the guy who married me said,"isnt it great God chose you?" that started years of me wrestling with Clavinism. thanks for the teaching.
He did choose us. He died for all. We in turn chose Him.
The Calvinist: "God determined all you do, and decreed it so ... God is more soveign than you ... so who can resist his will ... yet you are responsible and punished for doing that which he decided you do before the earth was. Also, any good thing you do as a Christian, using God's power, was also deteremined and not your own doing ... but if you don't do them you are held accountable ... and if you do do them he gets the credit and glory. So in other words, God preprogrammed a world, wrote out every line of behavior, and then said let there be light (start the program) ... then punishes all for doing the things he wrote that they do before hand. And especially punish those who reject the Son even more ... even though God didn't give them the power to do that which God called them to do; i.e. believe".
Utter nonsense in every way. There is a reason everyone "struggles" with Calvinism when they are taught it ... it's because it's incoherent, against all scripture, illogical, unreasonable, and turns God into a disgusting and wicked being. Everyone knows it's false, but the high and mighty "college educated" reformed types look down from their ivory towers and just say "who are you o man" and "i don't have to harmonize anything (make sense of the bible lol)".
Great and sharp summary of the incoherence and actually non Biblical nature of Calvinism that mars the glorious image of God in the minds of Calvinist adherents..
This is smart
What's the other option? Do you think God did anything ignorantly? Do you think God looked through time to see what people would do? How does God know the future?
Not what Calvinism or Reformed Theology teaches.
@@mimishella4915 What do they teach?
“Stay a non determinist until God determines otherwise” CLASSIC!
But God does not work that way.
Read my mind 😂
@@rll1954 lol that was his point. Calvinists believe He acts that way.
MacArthur can't "harmonize that" because he refuses to question his presumptions and assumptions.
So True! He's more committed to his doctrine then to biblical truth sad to say about such a good Bible teacher in other ways.
Thank you. I’ve been tormented by Calvinism. I’ve tried to accept it as truth yet the contradictions and implications against God’s
character drive me to say some pretty awful accusations against God. I felt awful and paralyzed. This video is giving me some clarity and validation to my objections.
Thank you for your help.
The end result of Calvinism is the belief that God is the sole actor in the universe -- Satan, angels, demons, sinners, murderers, child molesters, thieves, adulterers, liars... all for God's glory? Yeah...a CULT.
For the first time in my life I found myself doing the same thing when I learned about Calvinism. Trying to understand the ideas perpetuated by this belief completely warped my perception of God, that learned about from reading my Bible, and I found myself saying terrible things about God that I never ever even thought about before. This belief is extremely dangerous. My spirit immediately felt like it was at war with Calvinism. I thank God for the Holy Spirit who enables us to discern the things that are not from God. I will pray for you. God bless you.
I was raised Mormon, but I turned from it and was saved by Christ several years ago. One thing that stuck out to me about this is that MacArthur, along with other Calvinists, use the whole “shelf” analogy; if something about this religious belief doesn’t make sense to you, just put it on the shelf, and have faith that one day it will make sense to you, which is very similar to the whole methodology I was familiar with during my Mormon upbringing.
Thank you so much so so much for what your doing keep doing what your doing Leighton you are so right on brother !!!
McArthur: “ God doesn’t make any sense, It’s not MY problem.” (Audience shamefully laughs.)
you don't know what you are talking about.
Typical of his deceived followers
Mark W. No reason to be hateful. Regardless of our views we should have unity in the gospel!
How nice for him. He's conveniently one of the Elect chosen in eternity past, and was never in any danger of going to hell at any point. Of *course* it's not his problem. Meanwhile, it remains utterly lost on him that the words coming out of his mouth are *terrifying* young Christians *to death.* At least Dr. John Piper *tries* to offer words of comfort to people who are struggling with doubts about their faith.
Ruben T Have you watched MacArthur much? He’s a very good pastor and has q&a sessions explaining to people assurance of salvation. He should not be scaring any true Christians. He says consistency that God chooses us, yet there is also the offer to come. He admits God has this all balanced out and one thing we can trust with God is that he will send no one to hell unjustly. This would violate his attribute of justice. He is just. He shows no favoritism. We can rest assured in that truth.
Thank you Leighton for your commitment. God bless you. :)
The amazing thing about MacArthur here is that he says he can't understand how to gel certain theological ideas because he is not God, but Calvinism puts limits on God by suggesting that God can't be sovereign, all-knowing, and all-seeing and give us free will. So, when it doesn't suit his argument, he doesn't understand God, but when it suits his argument, he approaches it with some understanding of how God operates that cannot be conclusively derived from the Bible.
Solid teaching, thank you. This shared wisdom makes sinning, culpability and free will make more sense.
This understanding makes salvation wanted, needed and necessary to get out from under the weight of judgement of the sin upon our shoulders.
Its a beautiful thing that God leaves an escape from imperfection through Jesus.
Feels good to be saved and feels icky to sin is the life of a believer of Jesus Messiah.
Great teaching,
Thank you.
Let’s make this simple.
I have two sons.
I tie one of them to a chair.
I tell both to clean their rooms.
Only one obeys.
I hold the disobedient son responsible for refusing to clean his room.
I cast him outside into the darkness.
He is the lucky one.
One adjustment, neither one obeyed. (Edited for spelling) According to Calvinism, the one who obeyed just did what he was "caused/programmed " to do- no obedience. Calvinisms definition of sovereign does not allow anyone to do anything apart from pure cause, remember, unless one is already regenerated- saved by new Spiritual birth- one cannot do what is caused- hear the gospel of God about Jesus Christ, let alone believe. The one regenerated cannot be disobedient because it was determined he or she would believe. Willing, unwilling, obedience, disobedience, do, don't do, etc. is not possible because one has no choice. Choice is only possible by volition. So, the one not tied to the chair is an automaton made of flesh, bone, and blood.
I have a red ball and a blue ball. I choose the blue ball. This proposition is logically equivallent with the proposition: "I did not choosed the red ball".
Ah the self-refuting Calvinist argument on sovereignty: God is only sovereign as long as He obeys Calvinism.
SoCalExile lol soo good
What about ex Calvinists who gave it up? Did God ordain that?
SoCalExile that so bad and wrong.
as a hindu/buddhsit, explain calvinism in modern world.
Leighton’s reasoning here shines. JM seems to consistently surround himself with those he expects would never express dissent, and thus he can ‘get away’ with concluding he cannot harmonize the Scriptures at hand. Therefore, the hearers simply laugh and agree. If one cannot harmonize the Scriptures on a topic, then it should never be presented as doctrine demanding an “amen”.
You bring up a REALLY good point. I would take it a step further: If Calvinism is true, how is the Bible different from any other book? All books are merely a piece of the master puzzle of ultimate truth. So what makes one better than another? What makes one author right and the other wrong? What makes WRONG wrong? There is no wrong because it's inevitably part of what is ultimately right.
Some video claims reviewed:
1Q. Determinism: God has predestined your thoughts and desires so that you can't do other than what you do.
1A. Determinism does not need to invoke God as the argument. Determinism argues that all decisions depend on prior events and are predetermined based on cause-and-effect relationships. You will do what you do and can't do otherwise, not because God made you do it but because your will is governed by internal conditions (spirit/mind) and external influences (environment/past). If you went back in time and restarted time, you (and everything and everybody) would repeat exactly down to the movement of atoms. So, if this is true, then people appear to have free will, but they make all decisions deterministically and can do no other. Quantum physics, not able to determine a quantum outcome, argues that there is not always a law of operation; rather, things can happen, perchance, by randomness. I agree with Einstein that God is not a God of chance banking on the dice roll. If the will makes decisions with a percentage of randomness, then, again, the decision is not under the person's control, not being caused by anything internal or external to it, and therefore, we again have no free will.
Now, Christians know that God has ordered the universe by many Laws, which govern how everything operates. Nothing doesn't operate according to a Law that God ordained. An apple tree produces apples. A rotten apple tree produces rotten apples, meaning a wicked person acts wickedly and always will act wickedly. Pharaoh reacted to Moses and Aaron exactly according to his wicked intent; he could do no other. God used Pharaoh's wickedness, "For this very purpose I caused you to be raised up" (Rom 9:17), to demonstrate His power. Pharaoh was bound by his wicked nature (spirit); his reaction was deterministic in that sinful desires bound his will, and he could do no other.
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, "I most solemnly say to you, everyone who lives in sin is a slave of sin.
Mat_7:18 A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit.
2Q. All things are sovereignly brought to pass under Calvinism. So, God brought about everything McArthur wrote just as he assured everything Paul wrote. There is no difference.
2A. In the original autographs, everything that Paul wrote was from the Holy Spirit, overshadowing Paul, yet using Paul's mental capacity, but lifting his spiritual ability beyond that which humans possess on their own. In other words, Paul was carried spiritually into realizations that he wrote that were beyond his own understanding, not by their own spirit (will). The short-lived spiritual gift of languages was a sign gift; those speaking did not know the language, but the Holy Spirit carried them along to speak apart from the will (mind) in them. McArthur wrote some unbiblical and wrong things because he was writing without God's inspiration. God did not prevent him from erring, but Paul was prevented. Then God certainly allowed McArthur to write, or he wouldn't have written.
2Pe 1:21 for prophecy was not at any time borne by the will of man, but being borne along by the Holy Spirit, holy men of God spoke.
God deterministically allowed McArthur to follow his desires (based on the perfected spirit in him in tandem with the sinful desires of the flesh) and sometimes express his perfected spirit (writing truth) and sometimes the sinful biases of the flesh (unbiblical conclusions). But Paul was not controlled by fallen flesh. Only the mind of Christ controlled him when writing sacred text, as all authors of the Bible. There is a difference, a very large difference. God sovereignly allows people to follow their course by their nature, and God sovereignly overrules and restrains that nature so that a sinful person won't sin. Restraining sin is not "being borne along by the Holy Spirit." Permitting a wicked tree to produce wicked fruit does not make God the author of that fruit, nor is it God's will that they do so. Neither is it ordained by God that they must sin; it is deterministically resolved that the law of a fallen nature requires that nature be expressed. A dead spirit, when tempted, must react according to its nature, yielding lust and sin. God doesn't make the wicked sin. Their will is bound as a slave to do evil (which they desire) and can do no other (apart from the restraint by God).
Jas_1:14 But each one is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed.
3Q. God works to do His will in me unless I suppress, avoid, or neglect the provision to avoid sinning He has brought to me. Sin is my choice. When I succeed, God did it by providing a way to avoid sin.
3A. Notice here that the proposal assumes that man has free will (just as McArthur assumes that man is bound by sin under the law). Yes, sin is a choice. For the Christian, there is "a way of escape" which may be answered in the next verse, "flee from idolatry," that is, get away from the thing tempting you. But the wicked heart is different than the regenerated spirit in the true believer, which can do good because of a living spirit that loves God. The wicked are without the ability to do good in themselves. They love the darkness (Satan, who is their spiritual father) and hate the Light (Christ). Therefore, the unbeliever (unregenerated) cannot choose NOT to sin. They are slaves to their darkness, which they adore.
Tit 3:3 For once we too were without understanding, disobedient, misled, habitual slaves to all sorts of passions and pleasures, spending our lives in malice and envy.
John 3:19-20 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. (20) For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed.
John 8:44 You are of your father, the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.
So, an unregenerate person hates Christ because their will is turned toward doing evil. According to His purpose, God can restrain that evil intent or allow evil to become more evil. The Christian is different. It is God's good pleasure (because He loves those He Elected to save) to work in the believer His will (desire). When God tests you, if you sin, it is because you chose to obey your fleshly desires. If you do not sin, it is because God is working in you to will and work His good pleasure, which includes His indwelling Spirit and the free gift of a perfect spirit that loves God.
Php_2:13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.
Does man have the power to suppress, avoid, or neglect the desire of God to do something? If we have a free will that God will not violate, then the answer must be yes; we can frustrate God's plan. Rather, we can overcome the wicked desires of the flesh by the power of God's indwelling Spirit. Otherwise, the wicked would not be bound to their sin and could do good out of their own will, apart from Christ, like a dead man rising to life under their own power, which is impossible. It is the nature of the Christian to be led by the Spirit of God that "give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you" (Rom 8:11).
Rom 8:13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
That means the unbeliever lives under the law of the flesh. Everything they do is displeasing to God, "Those who are in the flesh can't please God" (Rom 8:8). The believer is alive in Christ, and therefore, it is "by the Spirit" that the believer can "put to death the deeds of the body." If you don't sin -- all the glory goes to God, none to you. If you sin, all the shame goes to you, none to God. Where is the free will? Sin is your choice, but it is the only option you will choose apart from the Spirit's controlling influence. That is not free will when it requires God's Spirit in you to "put to death the deeds of the body." I think it best to agree with Paul. The spirit in the Christian delights in God's law after the inward man (the spirit) but the flesh warring is beyond our control.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord! So then with the mind, I myself serve God's law, but with the flesh, the sin's law.
Only God working in us to do His will enables us to serve God's law and not the law of sin. That is not free will but a will that is at war. If it weren't for God working in the Christian, the desire to sin would bring us back "into captivity under the law of sin." Rather than a free will that chooses its own desire to not sin, we have the power of God at work restraining sin by His Spirit. At other times, God permits us to act according to the flesh to remind us that we are wholly dependent upon God.
I thank my former Calvinistic pastor who in the days following 9/11 included a flyer in our Sunday bulletin by John piper explaining that we should all take comfort in the fact that it was ordained by God. I knew right there and then that piper was a false teacher and that calvinism is a poor excuse for biblically sound doctrine.
So if i stop by his house and take all his stuff he would accept it as God ordained?
@@laserfalcon if you murdered his family he would accept it as God ordained. Because all things happen by God's sovereign decree and are designed to ultimately bring him glory. That's why we never need be worried or anxious about anything, see?
@@sp4gsus so God chose for his family to be murdered. You must have an evil God
LaserFalcon I think you missed my sarcasm. I don’t believe that! And you’re right that would be an evil god I would not consider worthy of any kind of praise or glory. But the God of psalm 117 sure is.
@@sp4gsus my apologies Sam. I reread what you said.
Its amazing how all Calvinist are always in the chosen elect group isn’t that wonderful for them.
Ben Beam, Yes it is too wonderful if it is true :))
Want to give a Calvinist an old-fashioned caniption... ask them how do they KNOW they aren't one of the elected reprobates?
Ben Beam, Calvinist are one of the most deceived people in the planet... They believed that they are the Elect because they believe in Calvinism... Bur the the bible fact is: They know Only Half of the Truth of the biblical doctrine of: 'Election and Predestination'....
predestination is the guaranteed future of believers not unbelievers
@@livingwater7580, You said: ''predestination is the guaranteed future of believers not unbelievers'' Definitely because all the true children of God by heredity the elect(Sheep) have the character of God and all are believer because they believe and love their Father....
I absolutely believe that Calvinism resurges and then dies back out because Calvinism has some wonderful practices that the church needs to adhere to. I am not a calvinist but I have watched in my near 60 years of being in the church that the church gets away from teaching and they begin to entertain the masses. Calvinism they have adopted expository preaching and teaching and by doing so the word of God is actually being taught with the exception of determinism of course. More churches need to adopt expository teaching and preaching and they can have the best of both worlds with topical preaching and expository verse by verse preaching and in doing this they are more likely to get the whole counsel of God. I have had many conversations about this with people and churches that mostly teach by the practice of topical teaching they do not get into the depth of the word of God and because people don't read their Bibles like they should a lot of these churches with a pastor that only preaches topical messages they lack biblical doctrine.
It's interesting that you would talk about the surging of Calvinism. Dr Phil Stringer is about 70 years old He was raised in the household of a hyper Calvinist. He said at one place that he has seen three surges of Calvinism. You're correct
I'm a Calvinist, and I'm glad that God has sovereignly ordained you to challenge me to put on my mental and spiritual boxing gloves.
HE More than Nailed it, HE NAILED IT !!!!!! Well Said and Taught Dr. Flowers!
I’ve learned a lot from your videos...thank you for the time and effort.
Dr. Leighton was being kind when he said God is not the author of confusion (like MacArthur), because he generously left out WHO IS?
If someone would take the time to read the anti Nicene fathers before Augustine introduce predeterminism, then you will not see deterministic theology concerning salvation. They were unanimous and unified in the doctrine of free will. I believe it's important to learn from men who were closer to the apostles then man that were further away.
Like who? Serious ?
So I can learn I’m new to all this???
Please name some anti Nicene fathers so we can read
Thank you for this. I had arrived at this exact position based on my own reading and understanding of scripture. Last week I had posted on FB that I reject Calvinism (and Armeniasm!) You make profoundly logical and well considered arguments. I need to look more into your teachings and understandings.
Dr. Flower renouncing Tulip just makes me realize God has a great sense of humor! I've been at McArthurs Church and I agree with Dr. Flower's point! For sure Jesus Rose again!
Never knew I was a Provisionist until today! Thanks Leighton for your content!
Same! Calvinism led me to a deep hopelessness and depression and I thought it was something wrong with me.
There is no such thing as a Provisionist. Just follow Jesus.
@@johnbreitmeier3268 why believers love labels from the world beats me. We are disciples of Jesus Christ!
@@aarontippery4176 how?
Here’s free will: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.” Rom 3:11.
That was absolutely awesome, thank you so much for this video and commentary.
God bless you, brother. Thank you for your ministry. We’re supposed to love God with all our being, including our mind. If our minds are told to embrace logical contradictions, we are de facto undermining the very thing we’re called to do, to love him with all our heart, strength , soul, and MIND.
It’s simple, God is not limited by time. Before God created anything He knew who would choose Him by their own free will. So by creating people, he predestined this free choice which in His existence was happening at that moment. Free will was not violated and Gods sovereignty is not violated. Our works are also predestined but or choice to do those works is not. The works will get done but who does them is open to who is willing. That is why rewards are earned.
Oh I almost clap 👏 too in 15:55 when brother Leighton threw a very good Philosophical argument to stay non determinism until God determined you to be otherwise just in case determinism is wrong. 👏 But it as a clap from the audience of Mc.
Appreciate the video sir. I gotta say I have watched a lot of MacArthur and Sproul and when I was saved actually found them first. I like their exposition of scripture but as you said the looming nature of Calvanism seemed to always poke in a detract from the gospel. I also disagreed with the idolization of church fathers that seemed to happen a lot. Through my own study I came to the same conclusion that you presented. If you picture the world as darkness and the Lord allows his light to expose all the world, that doesn't stop sinners from running from the light or hiding (as if you can hide). In that scenario God is still the one causing salvation because he allows himself to be revealed, but man can still choose to run from him. I never did understand why Gods sovereignty and mans free will had to be at odds. Mans free will exists within the confines of Gods will.
Amen! Just because God has given us the privilege to choose does not diminish God's sovereignty!
God gives every man the chance, the opportunity to be saved. He does not pee-condemn some men to hell. Those who go to hell chose not to believe in the finished work of Jesus. They have no one to blame but themselves.
“Daddy doesn’t have that kind of money” 😂😂🤣🤣
My view is simply this, the Bible says what God wants is to know of Him, I don't like titles, I just call myself a Bible believing Christian, I don't put none of my own interpretations, I pray and learn, too much confusion in the church, I worship God alone
I am a former Reformed Presbyterian Calvinist. I was one for 57 of my 63 years. In all that time, I truly remember only two people who had a heart for the lost. The rest of them love to make silly jokes as did McArthur did at the start of this clip. At one point McArthur was not even a five point Calvinist. Presbyterian Calvinists all have their favorite theologian that they quote much of the time. Listen to how he actually berates the audience. Christian leaders should not do these things. Micah 6:8
Thank you for this brother!
It's difficult to articulate provisionism when asked "are you Calvinist or Arminian?"
It's a silly dichotomy, and I can see people's frustration when I say "neither".
I like using an analogy;
If when we stand in front of God at the end and ask "Lord, did I choose this or was I always going to end up here?"
He will smile and simply say "....yes, now come and sit at my table."
Also, "who wrote Romans"?
(Technically it was Tertius 😏)
I Tertius, who wrote this letter, greet you in the Lord.
Romans 16:22
Macarthur is SOLA CALVIN
He is a wolf in sheep's clothing
Pedro Valdivia MacArthur is Sola MacArthur.
Ha2 😄 love this one! I love MacArthur except when he talks about anything Calvinism
😆
@@LEGASItv He has another issue you should be aware of, because it bothered the heck out of me. He states that a person can receive the mark of the beast and still be saved in direct contradiction of Revelation 14. He has many good teachings, but he has been elevated to a crazy, high place in modern Christianity, despite some poor teachings too. Just saying.
I think the important thing for general public that need to be clarified is whether different opinion / view on this matter will affect one's salvation.
Agreed.
Ezekiel 18, makes it quite clear that I am personally responsible i.e. I have free will to make choices and beare responsibility for what I choose. In the last verse God reminds me what a good choice will ... but I must choose, free will.
The Calvinism with which I am familiar would say God predestines the elect for salvation ...that salvation is all of God (monergism) When it comes to temporal decisions we have free will to choose where to work, who to marry, where to live, etc - that is not total determinism. Regarding salvation the Bible clearly says God chooses the elect-I chose you - you did not choose me. I do not know Calvinism as total determinism in all things. God can use all things that he has not determined for good. Did God make/determine that Josephs brothers would sell him into slavery? No, God used Their evil choice to ultimately bring about the saving of God’s people from starvation and later freeing them from slavery in Egypt.
In my 30 years of being a believer. I have gone from a reformed Church to assembly of God churches to independent charismatic churches and now back to reformed. I have seen that the reformed churches teach much more biblically sound doctrine and rightly divide the scriptures and are very good at studying the scriptures. The other churches are all about emotions and experiences. I've seen a lot of these churches that I used to go to have turned very weak and now have accepted the culture and wanting to accept all kinds of immorality in their churches. Excluding the reformed churches.
What country??
Good Australia’s reformed churches are hard to find!
One doesn't have to be calvinist to become sound in doctrine. Unfortunately, I have seen quite a few people swing from the horrible teachings and practices of Charasmatics, to tge deadly poison of Calvinism for the very reasons you describe. Again,a person can be sound in both doctrine and practice without falling into the error of Calvinism.
Thank you for this brother. I find the Calvanist argument so weak and have noticed that they always end up saying "you just haven't understood it yet" without any scripture to support this Greek philosophy fatalism. I abhor the evil of this false doctrine and so we must cleave to the right teaching of scripture in that Christ died for all, He would have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of truth and God is not willing that any should perish and that all come to repentance. Preach that gospel to all you can brethren and God bless!
You must abhor Rom 9 when God hates Esau before he was born and chose Jacob before he was born then.
I have come to the conclusion that Calvinism is just man made philosophy.
Glory Yo To GOD!!!
Thank you Leighton Flowers!
There are way too many scriptures that speak about God determining what happens in history, apart from any of mankind’s actions, for me to believe in this provisionism idea.
If God allows history to be brought about by what we end up doing, if He didn’t determine the beginning from the end without any input from us, God is no longer God, we are.
Besides Calvinism, I’ve never heard any other group give a proper biblical answer to this one question.
If we were dead in our trespasses and sins like Ephesians 2:1 says, how did we raise ourselves spiritually from the dead to then have the ability to have faith in God?
Did you use your power and free will to one day say, arise self and believe in Jesus now?
Or, did God have to initiate the relationship that you now have with Him? If He did, that throws absolute free will out the window.
And if it says in Romans 6:20 that before I was saved I was a slave to sin, a slave. That doesn’t sound very free to me.
Maybe a limited free will to choose what sins I wanted to commit. I could agree with that.
But surely one in that state, separated from God, you wouldn’t say they are able to do righteous acts pleasing to God, would you? Since you preach they have absolute unrestricted free will.
I'm so tired of Calvinists saying that some of their beliefs are just mysterious and that they don't need to harmonize different "truths," especially when there are other soteriological systems that can
“I give God the glory for the help he gives me”
-Flowers
Isn’t that a prideful statement. Shouldn’t you be giving God the glory for all the good in your life? He doesn’t just help, He changes you to do the good. This is a statement that shows you take pride in your good works and believe God only is a factor in helping you.
Psalm 115: Not to Us, but to Your Name Give Glory
Dr. Flowers continues to go on saying:
“I don’t think God has to effectually call you to do something in order for God to get all the glory for you doing that good thing that he’s provided you the means to do”
Well his previous comments, stated above, shows Dr. Flowers does not give God all the glory as he stated he gives God the Glory for only helping him.
There’s a big difference in giving God glory for helping compared to giving God glory for the entirety.
Amen....
Glory belongs to God...it has never left him and never will
In fact when you are a witness to the miracles God works in us through His Holy Spirit, we ought ALWAYS to point to / acknowledge God's Glory rather than declare that "We Give God Glory - as though we ever could - He is glorified through us NOT by us"
Romans 11
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”[j]
35 “Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?”[k]
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
That isn't what Flowers said. He didn't say he ONLY gives God glory for helping and not for the outcome....
The Bible is one huge book in which God pleads with, asks and guides people to do what He wants. Why would He waste his breath if He's just controlling our every choice? He created everything and knows it all down to the last subatomic particle from all of time and beyond. Yet He obviously decided to let us make our own ultimate choice. He gave Adam and Eve the choice. He knew already what they would choose and what you will choose. But He gives you the choice. He doesn't determine it. If He did, he wouldn't bother with sending Himself to live here as a man or writing a book instructing you.
Things as I see them about Calvinists and Arminianists (from Luke 18:9-14) :
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee (put Calvinists and Arminianists here), and the other a publican (put those who read or listen the bible and put their faith in Jesus Christ repent and obey his commandments, which is a born again, here).
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
(Clavinist: I proudly was elected / predestined, Arminianist: I proudly decided to repent)
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
If MacArthur claims he has a tiny brain I’m not going to argue with him. But he is certainly responsible to clearly defend his unbiblical position.
I've seen his study Bible and its really just a modern version of the Geneva. That is everything is strained through the filter of Calvinism and viewed through smoke and mirrors. MacGician (Magician) could be his theology.
@Deb Harris The "works" question is a tough one. Yes they claim to be virulently anti-works BUT in practice in daily life they are extremely legalistic which is "works". In claiming to keep the Sabbath they incorporate all kinds of rules to govern all kinds of petty activities. This makes them feel they are keeping the Sinai covenant commandment.
However, since their knowledge is so shallow they don't understand they violate the Sabbath every Sabbath. They are not taught all the Sabbath rules the Israelites were given. So in their attempt to be righteous they fall way short way short because of ignorance.
But the flip side is you'll never convince a True Believer in Purest Calvinism that they are wrong, because they cannot be wrong since they possess the one true religion.
@@Baltic_Hammer6162 yeah I threw that bible away when I saw his commentary on john 3:16. And this man believes u can take the mark of the beast. Stay away from this man. All I can say.
Another stupid comment
Here's verses that make absolutely no sense if everything is predetermined before the creation of the world:
"Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." 1 Peter 5:8
and
"Therefore stay awake-for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning" Mark 13:35
How could anyone not have freewill if we must stay awake sober, be watchful, for when the "master comes"
Calvinism is craziness.... did God choose before time began to have my Calvinist friend live in Adultry.
No! But he can still work it together for good. Romans 8:28
It's maddening how often Calvinists appeal to mystery or to paradoxes in scripture. What they can't see is that their faulty presuppositions is what causes the paradoxes or appeals to mystery. They can't fathom questioning if their interpretation of scripture might be influenced by a faulty premise in the first place. It's maddening. I'm so sick and tired of Calvinism. It's a shallow, weak, and foolish theology. There are better interpretations out there that don't have to appeal to mystery.
If people really understood the Bible better, and everything in context, much of the mystery would clear up.
@@Baltic_Hammer6162 well I think John MacArthur knows the Bible very well indeed, yet he says he can't explain it all - it's a mystery - (give him a break), is what he said.
@@kimberleerivera7062 No, he does not. If he did he wouldn't be chronically saying the off bubble stuff he does, like the blood on the Cross never saved anyone.
Baltic Hammer very well said
@@kimberleerivera7062, it's the fact that MacArthur has to appeal to mystery because of his systematic proves that he doesn't truly know his Bible. He's not infallible. He is reading a presupposed view into the scriptures and won't admit it.
The problem highlighted here is the tip of the iceberg of Evangelicals taught early and often to engage the pastor and not the text. Evangelical paternalism has led to passive followers shouting incoherent slogans. Now don't get me wrong, I thing the Evangelicals are closer to the truth of the text than any other Christian church and I have been an Evangelical since 1975. But when I ask my fellow Evangelicals to think and offer arguments supported by premises supported by the Biblical data, I get sweeping generalizations, mass appeals, strawman arguments, appeals to ignorance (like we see in this video). Dr. Flowers is doing a great service to help people evaluate claims and learn to think for themselves.
We want to evaluate claims not attack the man (ad hominem) even though John MacArthur is constantly attacking his fellow Evangelicals, we are not to follow his lead! MacArthur gets texts and doctrine right often. So do other Calvinists like James White, R.C. Sproul, D.A. Carson. We want to mature intellectually and eliminate these blind, mindless appeals to God's mystery (e.g. God loves all not wanting anyone to perish but determines before he creates them that they will be damned for eternity), that are the opposite of how Jesus engaged the ideas in scripture.
Jesus does not tell us to just trust him when we encounter incoherent ideas. He doesn't appeal to mystery.
There are no married bachelors in Jesus' world view. There are no round squares or determined free individuals. God's knowledge is not a function of him creating a world of marionettes on a play that he wrote out where evil and suffering are all a function God's design. These preachers who so conflate God's character should have no followers. They are like health and wealth preachers, and yet God saves some under their care, so he allows it. Shoot even Joel Osteen stumbles across a biblical truth from time to time.
Is "evangelical" a Christian or some other religious group?
John 1 refutes Calvanism. Christ is the light which lights EVERY man which enters the world. John 3 says "this is the condemnation, men love darkness rather than light" men either chose the light or stay in the darkness. It's their choice. Condemnation is based on their choice.
I believe in the sovereignty of God the free will of man when one responds to the grace of God by the work of the word and the Spirit of God i become the chosen of God
This is awesome I think this is crystal clear. Man confuses the word and it takes a clear mind to accept it