Calvinism's Edomite Issue | Leighton Flowers | Soteriology 101

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 พ.ย. 2024

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  • @GhostBearCommander
    @GhostBearCommander 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +20

    Never forget that the phrase “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated,” is a quote from the book of Malachi that Paul included in Romans 9 while anguishing over his nation of Israel.
    The verse was talking about nations in Malachi. No reason it wouldn’t continue acting in the same capacity when Paul brought it into Romans 9.

    • @orangepeel3465
      @orangepeel3465 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Exactly

    • @toomanymarys7355
      @toomanymarys7355 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Edom became Jewish before Christ. So that is an important context. They were Jewish while the Samaritans were not.

    • @toomanymarys7355
      @toomanymarys7355 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Lol he covered it immediately

  • @KevinEDF
    @KevinEDF 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +10

    Who else sings "ahhhhhhh" at the end of the intro song, no matter what they are at when listening to the videos, I am at work currently

    • @ericedwards5034
      @ericedwards5034 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      I often find myself doing the same...😆

    • @MINDWARDEN
      @MINDWARDEN 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@ericedwards5034Did you two just become best friends!?

  • @davidgreen-c2v
    @davidgreen-c2v 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +42

    Calvinism never works when reality is applied

    • @LawlessNate
      @LawlessNate 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +12

      Calvinism never works when scripture is applied.
      Oh wait, you just said that.

    • @jamiemcvay130
      @jamiemcvay130 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      But it always works when the Bible is applied.

    • @UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi
      @UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Makes no sense

    • @blackranger900
      @blackranger900 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @@jamiemcvay130 ??

    • @davidgreen-c2v
      @davidgreen-c2v 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @@jamiemcvay130 It never works when scripture and reality are applied. are you saying that scripture and reality are different?

  • @coreylapinas1000
    @coreylapinas1000 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +8

    this is something genuinely new on this channel. Its been awhile, thanks!

  • @emmanuelokello9183
    @emmanuelokello9183 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +13

    Best discussion I have heard on Esau/Jacob relationship.

  • @gracemercywrath8767
    @gracemercywrath8767 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +7

    So happy to see Dr. Williams on!

  • @John-bibleinsights
    @John-bibleinsights 4 วันที่ผ่านมา +6

    When it comes to God's interaction with man, it's "influence and response", not "cause and effect". That's well put.🙂

  • @bethanywolfe5065
    @bethanywolfe5065 4 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

    There is so much great stuff here. This represents my instinctual and learned perception of God's character. The Calvinist view makes me feel uneasy and dark.

  • @shakaibmunawar5411
    @shakaibmunawar5411 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +5

    God bless you Dr. Williams
    You done very well ❤

  • @MINDWARDEN
    @MINDWARDEN 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

    This was fantastic. Going to have to buy his book.

  • @suzannedebusschere1607
    @suzannedebusschere1607 4 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Great synergy here. You guys have resonance in the synchronous meaning of the word. Great, clear explanations, and you build on each other. Must be the Holy Spirit adding his two cents while he has a good time watching. Good video.

  • @jobrown8146
    @jobrown8146 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    I enjoyed this. Thank you.

  • @newcreationcoachingllc6491
    @newcreationcoachingllc6491 2 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Love this!

  • @randydickinson4864
    @randydickinson4864 4 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

    You can be confused and still be saved.

  • @Hicky33
    @Hicky33 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    I need that verse for "do not hate Edom for they are your brother".

    • @clintd3476
      @clintd3476 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +6

      ““You shall not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. You shall not abhor an Egyptian, because you were a sojourner in his land.”
      ‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭23‬:‭7‬ ‭ESV‬‬

  • @JamesLee-pb6dl
    @JamesLee-pb6dl 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Awesome 👏

  • @orangepeel3465
    @orangepeel3465 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

    EXCELLENT. ALWAYS EXCELLENT.

  • @jeffreybomba
    @jeffreybomba 3 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    When did God, “move the covenant promises forward through the Law?” This is a major problem with post Lutheran theology, because Paul makes it pretty clear in bother Romans and Galatians that the Law was unable to save, never did save, and will never save, and ultimately everyone that is saved has been, is, and will be saved the same way Abraham (before the Law) and David (during the Law) were saved, which was by FAITH.

  • @JohnQPublic11
    @JohnQPublic11 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    The Greek word μισέω = miseo, equally means love less.

  • @marekprochazka6434
    @marekprochazka6434 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Thank you so much greatly explained loved I

  • @StoneysWorkshop
    @StoneysWorkshop 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    8:50 Calvin shut down the broadcast 😂

    • @MINDWARDEN
      @MINDWARDEN 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Lol

    • @SisterBaby
      @SisterBaby 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Well, not exactly, but he tried!

  • @randscottadams490
    @randscottadams490 2 วันที่ผ่านมา

    To not “rightly understand” is one thing. To call this a secondary issue? I think not. More like “another gospel.”

  • @roddumlauf9241
    @roddumlauf9241 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Job was an Edomite king, descended from Esau; and a righteous man chosen by God and writing about him included in the Canon as wisdom literature.

    • @dandeliontea7
      @dandeliontea7 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @roddumlauf9241 according to the LXX yes

    • @roddumlauf9241
      @roddumlauf9241 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@dandeliontea7 Yes, you are correct. I use the Septuagint as my OT.

  • @JamesUy-w8i
    @JamesUy-w8i วันที่ผ่านมา

    Calvinist are 100 percent proof texters

  • @randydickinson4864
    @randydickinson4864 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

    I have heard a Jewish teacher saying hate is really defined as liked less not hate. 12:04

    • @bookreader8655
      @bookreader8655 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@randydickinson4864 interesting. Gesenius and Strongs define as hate.

  • @tonyforeman9502
    @tonyforeman9502 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    O Thou that in the Heavens does dwell!
    Wha, as it pleases best thysel,
    Sends ane to Heaven and ten to Hell,
    A' for thy glory!
    And no for ony gude or ill
    They've done before Thee. -
    Robert Burns 1785

    • @1jdndg
      @1jdndg 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Sounds like a Calvinist, once you are through the Scottish brogue (if that's what it is!) :)

    • @tonyforeman9502
      @tonyforeman9502 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @@1jdndg This is an excerpt from 'Holy Willie's Prayer' a poem from the 18th c by Robert Burns, Scotland's national bard: tongue in cheek, but insightful.

    • @gazzmilsom
      @gazzmilsom 4 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @@1jdndg "I bless and praise Thy matchless might,
      When thousands Thou hast left in night, "
      Burns beat Idol killer to the honest calvinist prayer

    • @tonyforeman9502
      @tonyforeman9502 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Burns was a wit, but penetrating. Calvinism was a powerful force in the Scotland.

  • @randydickinson4864
    @randydickinson4864 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    The old gods could brake the rules they set down and YHWH can not. 54:28 So He can do save the world and pick only before born at the same time.

  • @jjphank
    @jjphank 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9!
    God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined!
    Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1!
    Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright !
    So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says !
    Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue.
    So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8!
    But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“!
    Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try!
    Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross!
    Jesus was crucified before the foundations of the world, but he only had to die one time Says hebrews, so don’t get it wrong like Moses; when did Jesus die ?
    So this trumps predestination before the foundations of the world, because God chose to to write this to disprove & trump predestination!
    Revelation 13:8

    • @blackranger900
      @blackranger900 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

      I would like to hear you talk more on this. Thanks for the post.

    • @jjphank
      @jjphank 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @ You cannot out psychologize the Bible for God not to throw you into hell for all eternity. In other words, you cannot come up with a good enough excuse here and now, so you will not be able to on judgment day. If you say you did not wwant to be born, God is going to say you should’ve been born again, that means become a Christian so that’s not gonna work. And there are no other excuses try to think of one. So now you know for the first time in your life, that the Bible is smarter than you and it is a steel trap, smarter than all of mankind, What should you do then? So at least investigate and look to see that these things are true, because right now you just learned the Bible is smarter than you, and you will be accountable for your life on judgment day before God!
      We see glimpses of this when we have pets and they die and we think about (their) mortality! the Bible says Gods spirit will not always strive with man forever genesis 6:4. Psalm 7:11 God is angry with the wicked every day!
      so take time out & think about it, you can’t say you didn’t ask to be born God’s gonna say you should’ve been born again! you can’t say “God why did you create any of this, We wouldn’t have to go to hell if you did.“ a Christian is going to speak up and say “you’re not blowing this for me,I wanna go to heaven to see things beyond what we see now and what we don’t see, your foolishness doesn’t mean I have to suffer.” God is going to say the Christian is right & to the sinner, “no, we’re not starting over , you’re not gonna be annihilated , you had your chances!”
      Why does a Third World couple have 10 kids knowing that 4 are going to die? for the sake of the 6 that will live!
      its same with Heaven goers and hell goers! The glory of God in heaven with finally no separation, for we will see him,, will be shown to the righteous, as the Bible says! God’s not taking away his love nor his justice and no one‘s going to Out psychologize God on Judgment Day with any kind of smart answer! the Bible’s a steel trap, there are no “smart” answers, we’ve already answered them, in this message! If you say you did not want to be born, God is going to say you should’ve been born again, that means become a Christian, so that’s not gonna work either!
      Sin against eternal God ,you get eternal punishment! hell is eternal Isaiah 33:14, Daniel 12:2 and 11 verses in the New Testament, most of them quoted by Jesus Himself!
      Prophecy, the Bible is 27% prophecy, that’s future history written in advance. God‘s really sticking his neck out to get it cut off if he’s wrong, but he hasn’t been wrong about the thousands of prophecies that were fulfilled, so he’ll be right about the end of the world prophecies as well and you’ll have no excuse on judgment day for not looking for truth!
      Caveat: you cannot look for God in times of chaos says Isaiah 45:19, so you better do it now. In other words,You’ll be too worried about your own survival when chaos hits, than your eternal destiny!
      Statistic probability of 40 writers writing the Bible with zero margin of deviation, proves God wrote the Bible through the 40 writers!
      God authored the Bible!
      DNA does not auto encrypt, the code writer is outside of the code of the 3300000,000,000 lines of computer code in the human genome of our DNA! So who wrote the code to such sophistication?
      1,000,000 seconds is 12 days, 1,000,000,000 seconds is 32 years! That’s the difference between 1 million and 1 billion!
      One person’s DNA could fill the Grand Canyon up to 50 times full of books. John 21:25 “I suppose everything Jesus did, the world wouldn’t have enough room for the books telling of it.“ this verse would be fulfilled!
      Psalm 139:16 “in my members you have written many books“!
      Psalm 139 is about the human body!

  • @randydickinson4864
    @randydickinson4864 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    ?What was that book that when through the founding fathers fighting Calvinisam??

    • @SisterBaby
      @SisterBaby 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

      ??? They were saying that we shouldn't consider St. Augustine to be a "Church father" because he lived a full 400 years AFTER the foundation of Christianity... Much like the current politicians in the USA wouldn't be considered as "founding fathers" of the country.

  • @randydickinson4864
    @randydickinson4864 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    God said I can form these stones children of Abraham. 47:55

  • @TheOrthodoxLandmarker-jy2zs
    @TheOrthodoxLandmarker-jy2zs 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    If everything is just fine and dandy with those who TEACH Calvinism, then what's up with what Peter says?:
    2 Peter 3:16-17 "As also in all his (Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood (Romans 9?), which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, UNTO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION.
    Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, BEWARE LEST YE ALSO, BEING LED AWAY with the error of the wicked, FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS.
    How does this verse fit with "P" in TULIP?

  • @blackranger900
    @blackranger900 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

    who is this Dr. Greko that Leighton mentioned? How do you spell it?

    • @andrewmattiewalter
      @andrewmattiewalter 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      Dr. Joel Korytko

    • @blackranger900
      @blackranger900 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@andrewmattiewalter ty

    • @SisterBaby
      @SisterBaby 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

      🤣 Forgive me for laughing. I pictured the Geico gecko when I read this.

  • @randydickinson4864
    @randydickinson4864 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Will look up the linage of Jesus his heritage has many different people's in it.

  • @truthseeker5698
    @truthseeker5698 4 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Great bountiful and succinct video.
    Calvinism is repulsive.
    Give up the cult calvies, you’re exposed more each day!

    • @SisterBaby
      @SisterBaby 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

      "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and learned, and hast revealed them unto babes."

  • @jamiemcvay130
    @jamiemcvay130 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Part of God’s covenant promises has to be salvation.

    • @1jdndg
      @1jdndg 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Yes, of course, that was the primary purpose of the covenant promises: Gen 12:3 - "In you, all the families of the earth will be blessed." It is THE covenant promise that is embraced by faith.

  • @ryleighloughty3307
    @ryleighloughty3307 วันที่ผ่านมา

    As we read and study the Bible, God reveals his predetermined plan to us.
    As sinful beings, we cannot do anything to secure our own salvation; it is entirely in God's hands - God choses whom he will save and whom he will not save.
    This knowledge provides us with comfort, for whose hands would we rather have our lives in?

  • @randydickinson4864
    @randydickinson4864 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    56:53 No our God is not bipolar fighting with His own will through out the old testament asking them to chang and come back to Him when they can't do to His will.

  • @jeffreybomba
    @jeffreybomba 3 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Jews were well aware that Gentiles would be saved? Yes, scripture made that plain, but did Jews INTERPRET it that way, or did they treat those passages the same way they treated Isiah 53 and smash them with the hammer of metaphor?
    The false Jewish theology of the day, which Jesus came against time and time again, was very “Calvinist” in that if you were born a Jew you were chosen for heaven and if you were born gentile you were created to fuel the fires of hell. This is why there was such an uproar or Cornelius.
    The Spirit was not revealing anything NEW, the Spirit was making it clear that what scripture clearly said, should never have been twisted, and turned into layers of metaphor. This is why Jesus often said, “you have heard it spoken,” referring to fragmented theology/teaching and corrects that with, “but is has been written.”

    • @1jdndg
      @1jdndg วันที่ผ่านมา

      Three thoughts in reply, Jeffrey. First, there were two streams within Judaism before Christ and during his life. The first was that judgment was coming to all gentiles. The second was that some gentiles would be saved. Both views were held by various people.
      Not all Jews believed that all Jews would be saved. In Qumran, for example, they believed they were the remnant and that most Jews had apostasized and would be judged.
      Paul does say in Eph 3:1-6 that God had revealed something new. It was not that gentiles were saved (that was already revealed). The new revelation was that gentiles were equal members without having to become Jews.

    • @jeffreybomba
      @jeffreybomba 23 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

      @ Yea, there is always a remnant of true believers, but there is usually an even smaller group that has a reasonable grasp on the truth. God clearly told Israel to be a light and provided paths for gentiles to become part of the nation, but the over whelming majority, and those in power failed MISERABLY, and created systems contrary to God’s purpose for Israel.
      The masses, and even the apostles were stuck in these false teachings for a long time. No matter how many times Jesus told them, the APOSTLES still wanted to see the suffering Messiah as a metaphors for the suffering of Israel, and we completely caught off guard by the crucifixion and resurrection. The only one that seemed to grasp what was happening was Nicodemus, who after the crucifixion suddenly chose to go all in.
      If the Apostles understood the command to go to Samaria and the gentiles, how come it took miracles and vision to get anyone moving, and why was there such an uproar when it happened?
      General Jewish sentiment is made pretty clear in Acts 22:22 where the Jewish leaders are patiently listening to Paul until he mentions being SENT to the gentiles, and then they go into a murderous rage.
      Even today scripture is crystal clear about many things that the professing masses refuse to accept.

  • @robertmcvicar5824
    @robertmcvicar5824 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    Everyone seems to forget about original sin. The human race failed the test in the garden of Eden. We all died spiritually in Adam which is why we need to be born again. This allows God to be gracious to whom he will and harden whom he will. He leaves them to themselves. He saved Jacob and changed him into Israel. I don't see Esau complaning about being Esau. God blessed him materially because he was the seed of Abraham after the flesh. At the end of the age God will show grace and his wrath. We're vessels for the glory God. I thank God he never left me to myself and saved me by his grace. All the glory to God.

    • @1jdndg
      @1jdndg 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Today's discussion was not about that. We can't cover everything at once. But it sounds like you are saying that because we are "dead in sin," that we do not have the ability to believe and have to be regenerated first. Am I right?

    • @johnknight3529
      @johnknight3529 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

      'This allows God to be gracious to whom he will and harden whom he will."
      You're talking about a different God if yours was not always "allowed" to do as pleased, it seems to me. The One I worship cannot be "disallowed" to do as He pleases, ever, that is simply impossible.

    • @robertmcvicar5824
      @robertmcvicar5824 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

      ​@@1jdndgYes spot on. I'm supernaturally born again. God's spirit bears witness with my spirit that I'm a child of God. A lot of today's Christianity both Arminian and Calvinist is intellectual. I've got the grace of the doctrines in my heart. Romans10v10. Ex Arminian Calvinist.

    • @robertmcvicar5824
      @robertmcvicar5824 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

      ​@@johnknight3529Maybe I put it the wrong way. God uses original sin for his Glory on vessels of mercy and of wrath. We don't matter if we're saved it's for the glory of God for his pleasure which is also for blessing as a bye product.

    • @johnknight3529
      @johnknight3529 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

      @@robertmcvicar5824 - Your philosophy is nonsensical to me.
      "God uses original sin for his Glory on vessels of mercy and of wrath."
      I consider the God of Calvinism to be a whole lot like Satan (only far more powerful). And it seems to me it's him you are "glorifying" for getting those first people to sin. (And coincidently, after that, it's Satan who needs to be "allowed" to mess with Job. Had to ask God's permission.)

  • @jamiemcvay130
    @jamiemcvay130 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    You say that saying that “Jacob I loved and Esau I hated” did not mean that Jacob was chosen for salvation and Esau was chosen for destruction. “We don’t find that in the text.” But it is in the text. Vs 21-24

    • @tonyforeman9502
      @tonyforeman9502 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

      If Esau was chosen for destruction why would he be circumcised?

    • @robertmcvicar5824
      @robertmcvicar5824 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

      ​@@tonyforeman9502Because he was the seed of Abraham. This is a blessing in itself. Jews are circumsised and it doesn't save them.

    • @tonyforeman9502
      @tonyforeman9502 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

      @@robertmcvicar5824 Yes, a blessing and an inclusion. Why then the exclusion - preterition? Why both? Faith is what saves - not unconditional election, which is a fiction.

    • @nathanhellrung9810
      @nathanhellrung9810 5 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

      Where in verses 21-24 do we find that Jacob was chosen for salvation and Esau chosen for destruction?

    • @nedlandry7424
      @nedlandry7424 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

      “You will then say to me”, Paul was anticipating the reaction of the reader, and all of the Arminian camp says this exact thing. The Sovereignty of God over the will of man one of the most hated doctrines in scripture. Our free will is subject to the will of God. “God would never violate our free will” is a phrase often repeated but there are many examples in the Bible of God doing this very thing in a sense. For example whenever God “hardens hearts” or “predisposes “ someone’s favor, is He not guiding the will of such people? Is not being born again an act of God, the author of life? Nicodemus asked Christ how can a man be born again? What was His reply? The Sovereignty of God must be understood to a point and believed, because it is clearly biblical. Don’t let anyone interpret Romans ,9-12 just read it over and over, till it becomes clear