WHAT CNC-PORTED SBF HEAD MAKES THE MOST POWER? KAASE v AFR v TFS R v DART v CNC VIC JR & HIGH PORT?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ต.ค. 2024
- AFR VS TFS HEAD SHOOTOUT-WHO WINS? WHAT IS THE MOST POWERFUL HEAD CHOICE FROM MY HIGH-COMPRESSION, 427 FORD STROKER? DOES MAX AIRFLOW MAKE THE MOST POWER? HOW MUCH POWER DOES COMPRESSION ADD? CAN AN AS-CAST HEAD COMPETE WITH A CNC PORTED HEAD? HOW MUCH POWER DO EDELBROCK VICTOR JR. HEADS MAKE? ARE THE AFR 225 HEADS BETTER THAN THE TWISTED WEDGE R HEADS? CHECK OUT THIS COMPARISON BETWEEN 8 DIFFERENT HEADS ON A HIGH-COMPRESSION, ROLLER CAM 427 STROKER. THIS IS PART 4 OF MY ULTIMATE GUIDE TO SBF CYLINDER HEADS, WITH TESTING ON 225 CC OR BIGGER HEAD PORTS.
I've ran Victor jr's for 20 years and like them better than my high ports... Great job with all your tests brother.....
Forgot about one other good in-line head fully ported z304 head and there is highports with that flow more than that Tfs r head
Thank you Mr. Holdener for the SBF tech!!!!
Thing I like about the Trick Flow and AFR heads is they're always near the top of the pack in these tests.
These tests are not 100% conclusive because one head may benefit from different cam timing and intake and header design than another head. So one could always build the engine around a particular head and be shown that that particular head performed better overall.
On that cubic inches I would likely choose CHI 3V heads.
those work well
Yep, when they get cubic inches into the 400s, the cleveland style heads are the ones to go to, no doubt.
@elmerfudpucker3204 headders can get expensive on those. Hell... Even inline valve headders are expensive. I just ordered a set and they're over 1500 bucks ceramic coated.
The header size would not change the results head to head from what I have tested. Thanks for sharing the results
I would guess the more the heads flow the more negative effect the small headers would give
Love to see these big stroker smallblocks, boosted rigs are awesome but na throttle response is to die for
and idle sound.
Thanks for taking the time to do this, just bad ass!
So the lesson learned here is that the TFS R heads beat out everything! Even the AFR which had a half point more compression!
It does with that certain combination ..I wonder what would happen if he done a cam change my a compression change .. maybe different crank n rods (stroke) .. would those heads out perform all the others then ?????
You gotta keep in mind how long ago this test was, and how far the porting programs have come. If you ask anyone today between the two, pretty much the universal opinion is High Ports over Twisted Wedges, because guys are getting more power from the HPs today with modern porting programs. I also wonder if these are the older revision HPs too, Tooley revised them when he was with Trick Flow and that's a big reason why HPs are what they are today.
I wouldn't say this is a 'grain of salt' test, but you definitely have to be aware of how things have changed today. Make use of ALL data(the greater the variety of testing, the better) you have available for guidance, so the results of one test don't mislead you.
But twisted wedge aren't considered an inline head
TFSR is not quite cleveland architecture but it has the rotated and valve angles modified, bests all of the inline heads as it always has. They make big power.
My flat top 393 made 626hp on a super flow with the later p-38’s. 60cc chambers. So around the same compression. I’d say it was valve train issues. Smaller camshaft too. In the 250’ duration and right at .700 lift.
When power suddenly dips at a higher RPM, that says, "valve float."
JON KAASE set them up guys.. he knew the specs before he sent them and confirmed they shoulda been fine. So I guess Kaase can't setup his own heads. Thanks internet guy!!!!!!!!
@@superkillr maybe I’ve not seen it in the video, but I don’t think he made mention of Kaase sending him the heads personally or setting them up. Those heads were designed by Jon and sold thru Jegs. I’m old enough to remember that. I’m sure they had springs for a solid roller, but not all solid rollers are equal. I have one here that only requires 650 open, and I have another that wants 900 over the nose. I also new someone who had a set and ran very deep in the 6’s in the 1/8 mile with a 347 in a fox mustang N/A. It’s almost certainly valve train issues and valve float. I’ve spun mine 7600 with Manley Nextek springs and not a sign of valve float.
I have the p38s
Yea but what did it make at the wheel behind a big stalled th400. Probably under 500wheel but faster than any stick.
Seems imo the headers held them back some. My 427 is very similar, 12-1, solid roller in the 700s, super vic intake, 1070 carb, afr 225, but with 1 7/8in headers made 675hp and 585lbft.
Nice...
With the given curve being the same. I will Say that each head did what its going to do with the Given test cam. The brain wants what the brain wants. So the max HP was accomplished with the head that liked the Cam, Intake and Header combo the best.
With 62° of overlap at .050" - that camshaft is way off for this type of build.
@@edcurtis3375 So one of your super duper cams woulda changed how this whole test turned out?
@@edcurtis3375 Is this why it was well under 600 ft-lb for the torque? Normally a good built 408-427 ci will be 600 ft-lb or slightly greater.
Overlap determines where the cam makes peak torque... With an engine spinning up near 7500 RPM, I agree, the overlap should have been at least > 70°.
THIS IS THE TEST WE’VE BEEN WAITING FOR!!! 👍
I would go TFS. AFR is good also....I just prefer to be different. I think the headers were fine.... because they are more common as to most people having those rather than the bigger sizes as far as street cars
Really enjoyed this test Richard
Would've loved to have seen what it made using a set of ol' skool pro stock hi-port Cleveland heads or a set of C3 or earlier Yates heads.
That is a whole different ball game. Those Cleveland style heads rock.
Power potential from highest to lowest:
DOHC
Hemi
Rotated valves with Cant ( TW for example )
Inline heads ( small angle 12 degrees for example )
Inline heads ( large angle 23 degrees for example ).
A Hemi is the best two valve head you can get before you go over to DOHC. Rotated and canted valves are a BIG deal compared to an inline head. The TW heads were smoking the inline heads back in the days on the fords with an increase in mid range torque and top end power on the same combos.
Digging up bones... Anyway, I was wondering how much compression played in the output here. Some of the higher performing heads had higher compression. I sincerely doubt header size had anything to do with the power numbers that you saw. Also, I agree that the wobble with the Kaase head may have been a spring and/or push rod issue. Regardless, cool test, I remember when you needed a 6-71 pump to make 650hp.
Thank you for doing tests on small block Ford I think the 2 inch header would probably be better and would obviously have more flow than the one to three quarter but hey that's what you had and I have AFR 205 heads believe it or not the part number was the 1450 I wanted the 225 head I wound up ordering the wrong ones I put their 1450 and I needed 1451 I believe I messed up anyway I love AFR heads my head makes phenomenal power but thanks again Richard always love your program keep up the good work
EVERYTHING YOU POST IS INVALUABLE TO THOSE BUYING PARTS ON A BUDGET, OR TUNING N TRYING NOT TO GRENADE PARTS, THANK YOU! ONE QUICK QUESTION, ARE WE GOING TO SEE THE REST OF "THE OTHER GUYS" ANYTIME SOON, MY INTRESTS ARE 292 CHEVY, 300 FOED INLINES, AND 455 BUICK,THANKS FOR YOUR TIME!
YES-BUT I DON'T HAVE A 300 FORD
Maybe a series of runs with 2 inch headers with a 3 inch collector? Idea of clearing the exhaust a bit faster? Numbers will change somewhat.
If you were to reduce the displacement to 363 would you expect the test results of these heads to scale linearly? If you changed this 427 package to an 8 stack IR type induction how would you guess the performance would change if any?
Each set of heads needs it's own cam dialed in specifically for its flow numbers and desired rpm. If you want any engine with a 4 inch stroke to survive for any length of time it should max out at 6500 rpm.
no
There are much lighter and stronger parts now days, so the rpm limits made 50 years ago don't apply. The limits are higher due to better technology.
@@dennisrobinson8008 No, piston speed determines longevity in modern engines too.
@@Ken19700 the parts are lighter hence less inertia.
@@dennisrobinson8008 Lighter parts will exit the oil pan just as easily when you push them too far. For survivability you don't want an engine to exceed a piston speed of 4500 feet per minute. The math you use is (4500 X 6)÷Stroke gives you your max safe rpm. If you want your engine to last forever cut it back to 4000 feet per minute. You can build engines built for faster piston speeds but you're going to have to rebuild them far more often. Generally it's only for dedicated race engines.
I think the test was a good test. If the headers were bigger they all would've made more power but I doubt that one would've leapfrogged another head in power output. Maybe the heads would have been better with each of them having a cam dedicated to the needs and or the qualities of each set of heads. Other than that it was an awesome test and that much more I love trick flow twisted wedge heads.
I’d like to see the hp difference if the used C&C ported Yates C3 head
Would you ever consider testing some better head designs? For example, testing sbf sc2 vs MBE 12 degree vs Higgins race heads? I don't see many comparisons online between top end canted valve race head designs. The standard wedge designs seem to get all the attention for the street, but there is much more to unlock in the ones I just mentioned. There is the obvious expense, but some a few of those manufacturers may offer heads to test for free, never know!
I don't (nor do most people) have combos capable of taking advantage of what those high $, canted valve heads have to offer
I Would Like to See You Teas the Mbe SBF Heads & Intake ! . & The CHI SBF Heads & Intake
Yes Richard you did kill the power on the larger ported heads, AFR recommends 1-7/8" headers on there 225 heads but in order to get consistent testing using the 1-3/4 headers, I just wish you started with 1-7/8" on all products.
But how much? 10hp? 15hp? 25hp?
Love this I purchased a 427 car with ported pro topline 215cc heads and I couldn't find much info on them. I had no idea where I would be at.
I would use a CHI head and make a dart block, big bore 427 clevor if I wanted to make power. I know you asked what I would use for the windsor, so I guess if I am to be hamstringed by that requirement it would have to be a twisted wedge offering.
Same. Cleveland-style heads on windsors is superior to normal Windsor heads
Agree with your take on the header size.
Here is a test for that combo, Higgins cylinder heads, CHI, Brodix o Neal , Hammer head hemi head's. All ported.
Garykaren, I’m also a firm believer in the canted valve Cleveland type heads that you mentioned. In nearly all of those configurations, they will have better flow on the bench, have better results on the dyno and perform better in the real world known as the drag strip.
Using Pro Stock as an example, I don’t recall an inline valve SBF (Windsor) combination ever winning a Pro Stock Championship like the modified high port iron Clevelands did numerous times before being phased out by the 500 cubic inch requirement.
The Australian made Higgins Cleveland heads are awesome performers along with the Hammerhead SBF Hemi Heads. But the high cost would probably prevent them from being included in a modern comparison test such as this one done by Richard.
I think Greg Brown’s Hammerhead SBF Hemi Head package is actually a pretty good deal. In addition to the amazing heads, the package includes a state of the art Jesel rocker arm system, the required valve covers which look like Boss 429 covers and the rest of the name brand components needed to use the heads on any Windsor or Cleveland block. The available Cleveland intakes are limited but I don’t see that as a problem.
Hammerheads come with premium 2.20” intake and 1.650” exhaust valves. As cast they will flow 392 cfm intake and 275 exhaust. Typical ported flow is 462 cfm intake and 320 exhaust.
In June 2017, Greg did some dyno testing at Charlie Peppers shop with promising results from his new heads. The 427 combo used stock sized valves, a Man ‘O War Windsor block, a 1250 cfm Dominator carb, a cam with 281*/297* duration @ .050” lift and 14.8:1 compression. The results were 966 hp @ 7700 / 674 tq @ 6000 rpms. Pretty good numbers but the dyno data indicated that a larger carburetor was needed. A better intake manifold like the CHI would have probably picked up an additional 30-40 horsepower.
But that testing was done 5 years ago. I’m sure that more recent test results would be considerably better !
The Higgins Heads and intake manifold can be seen on TH-cam in a dyno video posted by FullBOOST. It’s a 461” Clevor street engine built by Dandy Engines Inc. in Melbourne, Australia. Using a single four barrel carb, 13:1 compression and running Aussie pump fuel it produced 934 hp and 669 tq.
Running race fuel it produced 979 hp and 700 tq.
There are some great Windsor type heads available. But I think the aftermarket Cleveland heads have a slight advantage. Just my opinion. Others will surely differ 🏁👍.
@@danielwilson6665 I agree, ever since 5 years ago, the typical numbers has climbed. As for intake manifold's. That depends who ports them for sure. I would love to see Darin Morgan from BES port all the tested heads and intakes. But run a big bore 427 stroker Ford 4.125" bore to 4.000" stroke. That would be very very interesting to see. Allow the heads to breath and the power numbers climb.
@@garykarenmcgruther6386 … I’ve seen some fine examples of Darin Morgan’s work and I agree that he is one of the best in the business. Canted valve Ford heads work quiet well with increased displacement 🏁
Been doing this for 30 years. All my customers want their biggest bang for their buck....as cheap as possible. Ford and chevrolet. Wish you would do a video on this with a stock convertor and even stock exhaust manifolds. I have a pretty good idea but would like you input.
Love to see a SBC version of this video , PLEASE DO THE VICTOR JUNIOR HEADS !!
Vic Jr sets in between the best inline heads and the TFS TWR heads.
I think all including the benchmark heads were held back but I think you needed to correct the issue with kasse/jegs heads and run it again
I think maybe you can do the test and give us the info for free.. that way we know it was done right
Take total valve lift minus lash
Assume no deflection of push rod
Look at 65% of cam lift after lash . .739 -.016 = .723 lift x .65
.46995 lift .470 . Look at flow numbers of each head at .470 lift ( this is the constant cfm that feeds the motor
The closer this number is to meeting piston cfm demand
The more power the motor will make
Excellent Data. Eric Weingartner measured actual "deflection" and it is around 5% in most cases. So what he does to overcome it is run cam lobes a little bit larger than his intended actual cam duration and degree requirements required for a specific output.
I would have liked to have seen some Yates heads just like if you do a small block Chevy I want to see sb2 heads
The twisted wedge heads have a inherit exhaust gain on a running engine over a std wedge head because of the relationship of the exh to the intake port in the chamber. That's the only head tested that would show as "Better" with the small header in your test. All of the inline valve heads would be similar with the only variable being flow and exit location of the exit of the port on the flange.
Your absolutely right.
Why should we guess? Re-run a test with a similar head and block, then alter the header size. Didn't Engine masters do that comparison? Your test was a good enough baseline for comparison.
JK heads had the best intake to exhaust ratio. Which if you dig real deep has the best HP potential. And I think making the cr equal would have came out on top.
I got the Kaase/Jegs on a 347 stroker and pulled 618 at 6500
Sweet. 618 HP at a LOW 6500 RPM. The peak torque must've been high! Peak torque on good built 347-355 cubic inch gets over 500ft-lb, sometimes to 525 ft-lb even...
ALL YOUR Ford stuff from 20 years ago?
Yes they would and the valve job itself can caut you big power gains as well
I really wish you had the resources to redo this test with all the best modern stuff. Would be an interesting things to see and I’m not even a Ford guy.
Trick Flow 225 Cleveland head makes what 650 hp at 10.5-1 comp ratio with significantly smaller hydro roller cam on a 427…..? In their literature. Are those heads really that good?
Only one way to know for sure sounds like a header shoot out 😎, Richard get a ford 6.8 v10 in there and do a turbo Big Bang please
The Kaase/Jegs. Are these the Kaase P-38?
Potentially... if you look at the EXHAUST flow of each, the "restriction" of smaller headers would have impacted the heads with more flow the most.
But... pure idle speculation. The quality of air flow is different than the bulk amount of air as the power observed didn't scale by flow bench max.
They've done these 1 3/4", 1 7/8" and 2" tests on the LS land in 550-700 HP N/A engine combos and the 1 7/8" win out handily. It might be 20-30HP peak and gains across the curve. The 2" loses at the bottom and isn't worth much at the top. So they have settled on 1 7/8" headers on those 6.0L to 427 ci applications in their world.
I wonder if a step header would have done better . 1 3/4 ,to 17/8 .
What would a race merge collectors do to these combos?
It looks like cams need to be matched to heads for optimal results .
Tfs r ones seem to be a really product !
That is an awesome idea do Dyno test of effects of header sizing with the deferent cylinder heads and also collecter length effects on torque and hp especially on an engine for the road ⁉️ Great content ! Thank You . 🇺🇸🇵🇷🦊👍
Big single plane, more cam, 15:1, e85 and Hammerheads on sbf. Would be great apples to oranges test.
I do wonder what bigger headers would do on this combo for all the heads
I have to wonder what the numbers would be with stock steel 4v close chamber heads on that 427 combo?
Lykins did a 351c stock 4v close chamber FT 11:1 dyno 614.82 @7500
After further review, the above heads outflow the stock 4v intakes by about 50cfm. Intake port 225 design beats stock larger ports.
This is good info to know.
Thanks Richard
Did you talk Kaase about it? I’d be curious to see what he would say about it. Maybe those heads like some weird split duration or something. Not that it invalidates the test but it would be an interesting conversation.
No fair, this lot was run to 7500 rpm, presumably because of higher spec valve springs. Be interesting to see that a standard stroke would run to and it's power with these heads, cams, etc.
I think all else remaining the same I think the test would have came out in favor of the best heads you used. I think although header size would have helped all of them the more powerful heads would probably have seen more gain because they would make the most of the improvement
I know with the different canted vavles and other things that would have made things need to parts change. It would have been very interesting to see how the CHI 3V' heads would have competed against the best normal Windsor heads.
Yes the Aussie heads. Make big power. Like a Yates C3 head. I've seen a 454ci sbf make 920hp n/a with those heads. Upwards of 8500rpm. Even the TFS won't make the power the 3v or C3 heads will make. They can flow close to the same numbers but fall short in power
@@forcedinduction5245 I just saw a SBF mustang with some Yates D3 heads making almost 1,100hp on just fuel. It was on the Revan Evan channel. Also if you search TH-cam for “how to build horsepower” you’ll find 2 more Ford small blocks in the 800hp+ range on just fuel.
@@RadDadisRad yeah they make big power. A friend of mine did a boss 351 that was 383 inches with a sheet metal intake/one big 4bbl a ton of compression and a solid roller that had more than 300 degrees @.050. I don't know the dyno #s but with the iron heads it was making power over 9000 rpm. In a 3400 lb car and a C4 it went 9.83. I've heard they can move over 340 cfm on the intake side.
3V's are used in 600-1000HP combos... They rock, however to test you would've need a different short block because the piston reliefs would be setup differently.
@@forcedinduction5245 Cleveland 4V heads rock. I was around for the original 5.0 days 87-93. The stereotype in the day was the 4V's were too "big", no velocity, etc. No one pointed out that it takes a ported TFSR to match a ported cleveland head. The 4V cleveland head makes 275cfm@.600" without being touched and 310CFM@.600" with just a good valve job and 290CFM@.500", with bowl work and a good exhaust job they make over 300CFM@.500" and over 315CFM@.600". WIth extensive port modification and filling in the floors from 340-370CFM on the intake side. It's amazing we didn't take that architecture much more seriously in the 5.0 days, it was superior. As good as you can get before going to Yates. The CHI 3V is basically an updated and corrected modern day canted valve "Cleveland" head. They make huge power. They are used in 600-1000HP N/A combos.
I am running a 411ci iron headed Cleavor that dynos at 770hp NA. I hear a lot of Windsor folks that want a cleavor setup. Can you do a video comparison between Windsor aftermarket and Cleveland 4Vs?
the different compression ratios makes a big difference. 10 percent carried over to hp is consistent. cool test and video thanks.
I'd love to see the actual valve lift at the valve, especially with the Kaase's, thinking their could be some lost ratio and the Kaase's use a different pushrod length to boot.
pushrod length doesn't change valve lift
Except when you combine that pushrod length change with a rocker fulcrum height change or if adjustable pushrod cups in the rocker like Jessels, changes the rate of opening the lift and the full open time.. th-cam.com/video/5lgEAMuZBdo/w-d-xo.html@@richardholdener1727
I have 1 7/8" and 2" headers if you want to use them next time.....
Just from what I've seen on a lot of dyno tests AFR for Chevy, TFS for Ford.
Now for the canted valve heads. Brodix Neal, Blue Thunder, SVO C302B, etc. 2.75 crank main block.
those were going to be next-but dedicated race engine builds were beyond the scope of the original test
@@richardholdener1727 In 2001 I bought my 1971 Mustang and over the past 21 years I scrounged up a pair of never built or ported C3 marked C302B heads, had "Scott the Mad Porter" who is fairly well known in the BBF crowd port and build them up. They are flowing 335 on the intake side at .600 lift. I also scrounged a old NOS G351 SVO block and one of the last SVO forged cranks for it. Scat 6.0 rods in Chevy dimensions, zero balanced the crank (shop near San Diego that built trophy truck Ford engines). I basically took what Roush was doing in the late 80s with the Trans Am/GTO engines and scaled it back, 10.5 compression, smaller roller cam but built to 351 dimensions. It hasn't been dynoed but the parts combo should have me well up into the 500s if not more. It's my 351X.. it's not really a cleveland or a windsor, best of both. It was super touring car before the term was coined.
Good info
@@kblackav8or You can do all the way to 12:1 with aluminum heads on 93 octane, and there is also E85, which would allow all the way to 15:1 or so.
1 3/4 Header would work good on this combo and possibly make a little more torque in the process. 😊✌️
The entire combination with 1 3/4 header vs 2.0 or 1 7/8
Running airspeed through the motor can be tuned with intake manifold and header sizes
I’ve run many combinations on pipe max and had headers built to pipe max specs and done very well
Performance trends engine pro 3.9 can be used to show engine running air speeds
If the combo is close to choke the small header makes it worse that’s when the larger tube slowed running air speed through entire intake tract and allowed more hp and rpm to be obtained
I would like that program, is it free?
@@sstevocamaro No but it's worth it.
So what you're saying in all the text is the test would show the same order as it sits now?
They did this test on Chevy LS on engine sizes from 6.0 to 427 ci, power levels from 550-700 HP and the 1 7/8" header wins. It's 20-30HP peak over the 1 3/4" and no loss in torque. The 2" header loses torque below 4000 RPM and doesn't make more peak power than the 1 7/8"...
before even getting into the whole video, seeing the tfs r heads made me excited. found mine in a storage unit the other day and now i need to figure out what to put them on. but lets talk old though. have had them for nearly 25 years now.
the capt i work with wants to buy them and keeps offering money.
I bought a set of R heads the first year they came out!!still have them and just had them cnc'd by BES...stock port location and flow in the 370 range at .700
From the water test I've seen it always seemed like the trick flow heads are the best for Ford. Chevy guys like those afrs.
water tests?
@@richardholdener1727sorry I meant to say from the tests I've seen. I was using the spell check microphone.
Two takeaways for me, one is the headers were used on all of the heads, and if they restricted any more than others in any measurable degree, it would have shown up in the tests. Like you said, if the lower HP versions were that restricted, they would have made at least as much as the TFS heads.
Second takeaway is that even though this is an old test, I still believe in those bread and butter AFR heads. I build quite a few Windsor street/strip engines and have used a bunch of those, and I have always had great performance and reliability with them. When you get up into the price per performance debates, AFR heads win every time for me.
I doubt the smaller headers hurt power much. I've seen 1 3/4" headers make good power well into the 650hp range.
I totally agree. Bigger headers may add 10-15hp max.
I would like to see some carb spacer testing, a ported intake, and bigger headers.
Also change the color of the lines on your dyno sheet. Sometimes the curves are hard to tell apart and a little contrast would be nice.
I CAN'T WITH THE LATEST SOFTWARE OF RUN VIEWER
Still is amazing the bang for the buck from a set of Edlebrock heads.
I wonder how much more power a canted valve, or hemi canted valve head would make?
AFR has always been be recommendation for an out of the box high performing in line head. I will admit the TFS heads seem to edge out the AFRs performance wise just due to the architecture. New build with new pistons go TFS existing engine stick with a 20 degree inline AFR head.
pick whatever head you want from the supplied data-the 11R heads work very well
I think larger headers would have made all heads work better i have the old twisted wedge but i would tfs rs ant day
Old school TW's kicked ass on the small 302 N/A's back in the day. They were always better and made more torque and power. The rotated and canted valves gave the heads low lift flow advantage even if another manufacturer was able to get close to peak flow number. And the chamber was a superior design.
I just received my Trick Flow Twisted Wedge 11R top end kit with 170cc heads.
Im wanting to purchase a 347 Stroker kit now that the Block is back from the Machine shop (.030 over).
The motors a 99 Explorer roller. Its going into an 86 Bronco.
Recommendations on which (Balanced) stroker should i be looking into? Wanting to run pump gas. 91 is highest rating here in AZ.
scat has good stuff
@@richardholdener1727 Thank you sir!
I do like their reputation. Just had to get a a validation from “the man” 👍🏻
I wish you could've gotten your hands on a set of kaase's p38 heads... Not sure how much the 1-3/4" headers were really holding back. Bet you it's not much
A bud had a set of Kaase/jegs heads, I thought they were p38 but rebadged for jegs?
@@rob5ohthe p38 came out after the jegs head did. They had a different combustion chamber shape, but I guess outside of that, they were basically the same.
Some of us think it was 20-30HP. They did this test in the LS world on 550-700HP N/A combos and 1 7/8" were worth 20-30HP with no low speed torque loss.
@@dennisrobinson8008 I'd like to see that. See how differently the primaries we're arraigned between them and all that. We're they at least the same model of headers? Or different.
@@jbuch66koop his dyno header looks to be the super cheap MAC 1 3/4" which have a tiny pinched entrance barely larger than a E7TE exhaust port. Better 1 3/4" headers with a better entrance and better collector design were worth a measurable amount over these. They are certainly holding it back.
Id like to see a trick flow r head and high port combo from tfs that would be nasty canted valve high port
To me it seems the Windsor and Cleveland was like the Beta Max /VHS situation, why did Ford axe the Cleveland? The conclusion I have come to is the Canted Cleveland 2v head is far superior flow wise anyway. I would think a affordable 100% bolt on Cleveor head that used any Windsor intake was readily available regular Windsor heads would be pointless. I see a video showcasing a head of that description (minus the affordable part) that Edelbrock made but I can't find anything else on it. Also will a Cleveland easily bolt into a fox/sn95 with very few mods if any?
The Cleveland was dropped due to emission requirements. Because of the canted valve design the ring package needs to be lower down on the piston. This produces more unburnt fuel that sits on the upper sides of the pistons. That small amount of fuel means that the Cleveland would not pass emission requirements (back in the mid 70's) The Cleveland was produced in Australia up to the mid 80's because of less stringent emission requirements in Australia.
Do some reasearch on the CHI 3v heads. I make 2800hp with a 44ish sbf with twin turbos. If you want to make power this is the way to go.
Factory American 2v Cleveland heads have a horrible combustion chamber and the ports aren't efficient when you compare volume to flow. But port wise are better than factory Windsor heads just a few draw backs with some big pluses
Emissions didn't just kill the Cleveland - it's also why Windsor heads never progressed too much.
As far as running factory Cleveland heads, as awesome as they [could] be(North American 2v, ehh...), they're still iron factory heads. Affordable aftermarket heads left very few wanting to bolt factory stuff back on, let alone iron. TFS Twisted Wedges were just too affordable and too good - no one was thinking about a Cleveland by the time they hit the market, because Windsors tend to be cheaper to build(I wonder if that still holds true in Australia...), and a set of TWs allowed you to make a lot of power on a budget - as illustrated by this test. Legendary heads, really helped kick off the 5.0l aftermarket.
@@RyTrapp0 a proper combo with ported 4V Cleveland heads is very capable, of course that is about where you start with evolved Cleveland style aluminum heads and going from there. Actually there are plenty of folks still doing clevelands and now you can even get new and very improved blocks. A 393 Cleveland with a real good set of heads and tuned with the right combo will crush a comers with inline valve heads.
How old are these tests? Some of those head have not been available for years now, others have been threw 2, 3 or even 4 revisions.....
I would have liked to see the Kasse heads milled down(angle?) to 57cc chambers with some bigger headers. I think they may have given up on the top end more than the others with the comparatively small headers. I'm making that hypothesis on the grounds of the greater departure from conventional Windsor valve layout. I think the compression difference may have made them a real winner as far as torque under the curve too.
I really love the Kaase heads - but, today, the inline stuff is some of the baddest SBF stuff available. For example, these old school High Ports don't represent what today's High Ports are capable of(presumably, these are the older HPs before Brian Tooley revised them during his time at TFS), as the modern stuff tends to beat out any of the Twisted Wedge offerings, especially with modern porting programs from places like TEA. Or Eddy SC1s, still one of the best SBF heads, and another inline piece. So I gotta disagree with the "moving further from Windsor architecture" theory, that was true in the past before we got heavier development in the SBF world(Twisted Wedges are one of the OG EFI era aftermarket SBF heads, and their capabilities & popularity probably initially slowed development of the inlines). But, today, it's damn hard to beat the modern inline stuff, you have to go with some pretty serious canted valve pieces to surpass them. Not to mention, inlines have better valve geometry in Windsors(lifter placement) too, which helps get the most out of them up top.
nothing you are talking about has anything to do with one another. Might as well had Richard run different valve cover breathers as well.
I would think the headers held back the most powerful heads the most so probably not change the order.
Man! I'd loved to have heard that Ford making it's dyno pulls! I'd probably have fainted
I've always wondered about the Kaase heads because they were such a different design. Oh well...
With the cam used, was the engine running lumpy at idle? Or did it have good manners and run smooth?
You gotta thrown in some Canfield heads. I have a set on my vortech 408w in a fox.
we tested canfields on the other motors
@@richardholdener1727 I saw it after I sent the comment. They do ok. Time for some better ones I guess.
Hey Richard! Quick question, I know you used to do a lot of Honda things in your day, I was just curious if you have ever messed with the Mazda stuff? Particularly the MZR DISI engines from the mazdaspeed 3/6.
ONLY AN INTERCOOLER UPGRADE ON THE 3
@@richardholdener1727 Nice! Thanks for the speedy reply (get it?) Lol. I just picked up my second generation speed 3 and there's just no way I can leave it stock. 🤷♂️ Lol
I have a 370 CI Dart with 195cc AFR heads. Comp cam XFI236HR-14. The manifold was an old Wieand EFI tunnel Ram base with a custom plenum and a 75mm T/B I origanally had fitted and was match ported to the heads.
I have since changed to a Edelbrock Victor EFI manifold, part #29285 This manifold has larger ports than the heads. I would like to see a test showing this and what effect it has on the tune and power out put. Question, should I pull the heads and port match or just fit bigger heads?
The only thihg changed was the manifold and to a 1000cfm Holley Throtle body.
the port match is not critical-your intake changes makes a much bigger difference
The header size I don't think mattered. In that with that many cubic inches all the heads were choked. So over all the number maybe low but low for all. I think where the test could have been more equal is in the CR. And that is almost impossible to do. Because it would either involve massaging the top of the pistons. Or the chambers. And as soon as you touch the chamber it's not a cnc. Ported head. It's a cnc ported head with the cc reworked. So you did about all you could to evaluate the heads in a comparo. Maybe you could have done the hp. And torque under the curve like you have done before where the max number isn't as important as the total from rpm to rpm and if max power was @6700 rpm what was it at. 5700 for all of them and 4500 and so on. Some heads loan them selves to more power over 7500 vs some heads making the most at 6800 but make 40 more at 5400 vs the other. And are there no C3 yates heads out there that can use a nascar intake. ? Don't the C3's flow more than a tfs R ?
i think the best head would fair better with bigger headers. The TFS R heads would have opened the gap.
They don't jump up to 2" on big blocks until larger cubic inches. Why would they need them on a 427? With the massive cam profile and exhaust duration.... The 1 3/4" are moving everything there is to move. All the Ford heads have a small exhaust port compared to a 2" primary. It makes no difference.
Add .1 more lift on cam and re-run test
Then put the bigger header on each 2.0 dia
And then what would happen... ???????????????
To bad you didnt run a set of Cleveland 225cc or CHI 225cc heads to watch them walk away from the inline valve heads. I know it would have been major surgery though changing pistons. Im glad the Trick Flow heads beat them all though especially the edelbrock and dart heads.
I'VE RUN CHI HEADS
@@richardholdener1727 But i'm talking about as a direct comparison with this 427W short block. Get some Clevor 427 action.
TW's been kicking ass for about 25 years... All these fancy inline valve heads were getting dusted on the basic 5.0/Cobra combos in the days. The results were higher tq and HP across the board due to a superior chamber and better low lift flow.
It would've been interesting. It takes all the way to CHI level to start beating the TFS TWR heads. And the TWR bests all the inline valve heads like it always has.
@@dennisrobinson8008 That's not CHI fault the aftermarket cant keep up with the Cleveland head design. Yup the TWR heads are great.
The only reason I said it would be interesting to compare the Cleveland design Trick Flow 225cc or CHI 225cc heads is because he brought in the TWR 225 head. Testing these on the same 427 would have put the conversation to rest to all the "inline valve people" that the Cleveland design head will always out perform and has always dominated any other small block factory head no matter what brand it is. I guarantee you my Trick Flow 225 Cleveland heads will kick the TWR A$$ at any rpm and power level.
It only takes a stock set of Cleveland IRON 4v heads to out perform the TWR heads on a big inch engine. The TWR will have a little edge down low but the IRON heads will dominate like always. 🦾
Based on all the live chat during the discussion about the LS head comparison, I was expecting a lot more power from a Ford. There was a lot of smack talk from the Ford boys about how much better they are. The power produced is what I would have expected and is definitely not better than an LS or even an old SBC. My old school 427 with a set of small AFR210's that I purchased in 2000 made 640HP and 565tq. That dyno pull from 2014 is in my video's.
Ford CHI or Yates eats all these . The Canted Valves Similar to Factory Ford Cleveland Architecture . Not Common Ford Smallblock Heads due to Outlaw Status for Decades
This test was decades ago. Old technology that is no longer relevant.
Ported LS3 heads are in the 350-365 CFM range and Ported LS7 heads in the 375-410 CFM range. So the Ford head in question would need to be able to be in that range. So for the inline heads it would be the 225 CC heads such as the AFR, the Dart, and a large port hi port and TFS TR all the way up to cleveland or yates C3... Really only the ported TFS TR, Cleveland style or Yates heads can compete NA against the ported LS3 to ported LS7's or aftermarkets. The engine doesn't care about manufacturer name it cares about flow. They are also shooting for 600 ft-lb or greater out of these 400-434 ci large small block builds.
But what did your 427w make at the wheel through a big stalled th400. Probably under 500wheel, but way faster than a stick.
@@maximusvonce1381 It made 530RWHP which is irrelevant. It went 9.56 @ 143 on a small shot of nitrous.
I have a set of tf high ports CNC ported 240cc , what size were the high ports heads you tested?
Mine flow a tad better, 355 Cfm
I believe the hearts would of helped some the head a little but would of helped other heads Allot .
I don't think the average difference would of changed much other them all being higher due to header size.
What's the difference in $ between the brands?
I think the 427 clevors with CHI heads make around 700ish hp on pump gas from a video I saw years ago
In 2004 I went to AU. to do some testing w John K the owner of CHI. We built a 427 clevor and w out of the box stock 218 CHI heads we made 745 Hp and 648 Tq w a lot less cam. We installed the engine in a 3600 lb 4 door Falcon. The first time out the car ran 9.30s @ 142 mph. and yes on pump gas.
CHI are used in 600-1000 HP builds... They make excellent power, the peak torque numbers are extremely high ( 650ft-lb out of 427 cubic inch ) showing the efficiency of the head.
@@racerd9669 That high 648 ft-lb shows how efficient those bad ass 3V CHI heads are. Out of 400-427 ci, i'd be happy at 600ft-lb up to 625, but the CHI's are making 630 all the way to 670 tq out of 427-434 ci on good builds. The Cleveland architecture had been overlooked by many of us who grew up in the original "5.0" days... .
So when do we see group 5? The really big SBF heads.
NO MORE GROUPS
Would love to see a heads shoot out for the gen III Hemi, I know the stock eagle heads flow really well but are there any aftermarket heads that are actually worth it? Or any company’s that do porting that’s worth it?
I actually think it favors the cams that you wouldn't have expected to produce the most top end horse power! Actually, it's a little disappointed in the top end hp figures of these top end packages!! I can understand from 5500 up, but with the compression ratios and cam timing, these aren't street/strip combinations in my book!
With a high static compression ratio BUT intake duration to help bleed cylinder pressure at low RPM, high static compression is more survivable.
What stood out at me was the torque, peak torque was under 600 ft-lb and a well built 408-427 ci motor will make 600 ft-lb or greater. So something was off. I wonder if he was missing the header collector extensions, which would explain the missing 40-50 ft-lb, which would also explain why some of the heads didn't go over 700 HP. In another of Richards tests the combo made 50 ft-lb less than it should and he noticed that he didn't use extensions after the header collectors. By attaching an extension to the header collector the torque increased across the board and peak torque up by 50 ft-lb, making what it was supposed to make.
@@exploranator but it's kissing ur cousin! If ur bleeding the cylinder pressure off to keep detonation down, why not just use a cam that optimized the efficiency at a lower compression level? Wouldn't that actually make volumetric efficiency better? Sling it up a little more? Bleeding the compression of with overlap seems a wasteful. I'm asking, but it seems like you're bowing gas out the tailpipes! Now, are you trying to artificially fill the cylinders with more intake duration, but artificially keep the static compression down to limit detonation? Not worried about low and mid range response? Pump gas racing?!