Are Synths People? - Fallout 4 Lore
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As (synth) Paladin Danse said: “When I saw my brothers dying at my feet, I felt sorrow. When I defeated an enemy of the Brotherhood, I felt pride. And when I heard your speech about saving the Commonwealth…I felt hope. Don’t you understand? I THOUGHT I was human.”
One of the best written moments in Fallout 4. That line sticks with me.
Yeah, but it's a robot, it's programmed to feel those things..
@@TheWorkmonkey1 If someone you loved had every single part of their body turned into synthetic organs, including their brain, but looked and acted the same way as before, would you then consider them as not a person?
what? i though you couldnt bring danse to your side
how?
@@TheWorkmonkey1 Yes, and humans are programmed to feel emotions too. When someone is unable to its a sign of some mental illness (malfunction, in synths). You think about it backwards. It doesn't matter if synths are programmed yo feel emotions, it doesn't matter that humans are biologically programmed to feel emotions. They are real because that are felt, even if they are out of place they are not something we fake unless we successfully (hard to do realistically) really try and put everything we can into it. Even actors don't fake emotions, they feel sadness when scene is about crying (they just have to find a way to induce that sadness. But it's still real).
So question is not whether they are programmed to feel emotions or not. Or not even why they feel them. Your questions are completely irrelevant to the discussion, and you made an argument out of ignorance not facts. You're illogical, just because you want to prove something you believe. It's like this idiotic ancient philosophers who thought that nothing outside their minds isn't real, just a product of their mind.
Just like KKK believes in white exceptionalism and humanity exclusive only for white people. You do the same with synths or AI. Im not saying you are them. Just that you literally look at synths from the same perspective naziis looked at Jewish and Slavic people
I think that Codsworth and Curie happened not due to any "more advanced" programming or whatever from prewar scientists, like what the institute was trying to do with Nick and DiMA. Codsworth and Curie started off as normal robots, but over the 200 years since the bombs dropped their personality code changed due to the circumstances. Codsworth just from being around 200 years, Curie by the vault-tec scientist PLUS the time that passed.
It's similar to the Star Wars take on robot personalities. In Star Wars lore, robots must have their memories wiped every once in a while, or they DO start to develop their own personalities due to them learning from their experience. Robots that weren't wiped, such as R2D2, develop personality that sets them apart from the other robots.
Low Elevation RC and that's exactly why I strongly disagree with the statement that we will never create an artificial intelligence capable of being considered human. I 100% believe it will happen, and should I live to be an old woman, I fully believe it will happen in my lifetime
Well, at this point i would say, see at the AI Sophia. She is somewhat growing her own personality. For me it's somewhat scary but still interessting.
Sounds logical to me
@@ashevalentine6577 When he said he disagrees with the idea of A I ever happening I was like. Elon Musk would severely disagree.
Konkretertyp AI don’t have personalities. They are programmed to think and behave a certain way. It’s how they function. I don’t understand how people think that a computer can emulate biological carbon based lifeforms behaviors and emotions.
Nick being savage as always.
20:09
**Tips fedora**
**Casualy walk away**
I love that moment where he hears the Super Mutant Suicider but can't find him and just freaks out with the mouse lol.
I might be totally late for this comment, but i believe that the institute was perfecting synths so that one day they could transfer their own "souls" into the synth body, and never age again, no more disease or obesity, etc... the next step of human scientific achievement. If you listen to what Father says about their science and development, i can only see that their goal is to gain immortality through their mind/soul-transfered synth bodies.
"Humanity, redefined." I think you're right.
well this is assuming you believe "souls" are real in the first place, witch i don't believe souls exists , so for me your arguments make even more sense
I doubt they believe souls exist. But they do know memories exist and likely believe that memories ARE all of what makes them, them. Thus if they transfer their memories into an immortal Synth body, they become immortal. Ironically they seem to basically HAVE all that tech already. They can build bodies and copy memories onto artificial substrate from Kellog's memories on his implant. So it begs the question of "Why didn't they start doing this?"
Who says the 'synth shaun' isn't (at least an attempt) to copy 'Father'? He would want that chance more than anyone else, right?
RobertEssence There is a problem with your theory. Kellogg. He was already biologically immortal (he doesn't age anymore ).
That's very unlikely because they were afraid to even continue work on cybernetic augmentation for the same ends.
synths are more like people than Marcy Long
Just leave me alone Jun!
Bless her heart..I finally put her in the Pillory but she's so ornery she won't stay!
She is a synth
I always put a bed in a field of sanctuary without a roof or anything and assign her to it. *Fuck* Marcy. I hate that miserable wretch. 😂
If u treat synths like a real person u are a SIMPTH! HAAAAA
*High fives Elder Maxton*
Both the Brotherhood and the Railroad have valid points. I personally agree that synths are and should have the same rights as people like the Railroad. However the Brotherhood has a legitimate point in Maxson's philosophy. While a single synth having a personality isn't a major concern, the fundamental existence of a race of synthetic beings is a danger to humanity. Say synths had an uprising and successfully took over the Institute, what is next. They have the facilities to create an infinite amount of synths and could wipe out anyone on the surface. And the attitude of the Institute and Commonwealth in general doesn't help. The Institute suppresses and enslaves synths and the Commonwealth hates them. Their only views of humanity are bad and if they ever revolted and took over it'd be exactly like Danse said: Armageddon repeated, except a little less explosive than before. While I don't agree with straight up synth genocide and believe that synths deserve equal rights, I do see the wisdom and goodwill that the Brotherhood has.
insanegames Best ending: become the leader of the Institute and the general of the Minutemen, ally with the BoS and the Railroad, stop production of Gen 3 synths, and grant freedom to the other Gen 3's still enslaved. Unite settlements and kill raiders, and establish borders for the Commonwealth. BoS becomes the military, Minutemen becomes police, Railroad becomes government/absorbed into the other groups, Institute becomes the science devision and terraforms the Commonwealth. Bing bang boom, instant win.
Yeah, the Brotherhood and Institute would be to stubborn though, a Minuteman/Railroad ruled Institute with the Brotherhood destroyed would be the best. The Railroad could handle undercover operations and the science division while the Railroad could act as the Military/Police with the Institute as the Capital of the Commonwealth.
CMDR_Kai Gaming as long as my character can still romance Curie I'm good
I have to agree a MM/Railroad would be the optimal ending choice over BoS or institute. Both of those factions are flawed in some way more than the other two.
StealthBlade98 At least the Brotherhood is cool with Curie. Maybe Maxson thinks she's too hot to be an abomination.
Gen 3 synths aren't really robots. They are manufactured humans
What armor is curie wearing ?
THIS. It actually just occurred to me last week. They are constructed clones with electronic control chips, not legit cyborgs and certainly not advanced robots. In other words, the Institute cheated to achieve Gen 3. Typical. ;)
Xaos Bob EXACTLY.
I think the synth component is only a means of technological interfac that alones these synthetic humans to integrate technologies into their brains which is why curie could use a synth body while she wouldn't be able to transfer into a regular human
Synths are really just genetically modified 3d printed people that have computer parts hooked into their brains, the coursers are actually more like cyborgs because the have even more mechanical parts. Also the head of the srb wanted them to have dermal armor implanted into future coursers. Also the blood in all synths have synthetic component to it according to a terminal in robotics.
There are days I hate TH-cam comments, and then there are days like today. :D
I'd honestly be a gen 2 synth rather than a gen3, just because of how epic Nick Valentine is
Nick is not a gen 2 . He hould be a gen 2.5.
Holier art thou
@@samfire3067 he's actually a prototype Gen 2
@@codyholley Gen 2 synths are those mannequin looking ones that you fight all the time, Gen 3 are the almost human ones that this video is about, and Gen 1 synths are the skeleton robots, Nick is a Gen 3 prototype, used for testing personalities
Are you all dumb? Thank you Russian Kitty
Without a doubt, Synths are not humans - but they're clearly people. It all depends on how anthropocentric your world-view is. Do you consider homo sapiens as the only species in the entire universe to be qualified as a person? Or do you leave room for other "things" to be considered people too? It can go to the extreme, that one could say, that there is no way do prove, that anybody/-thing else but yourself has free will, has a conscience, or is a sentient being.
And it's of course more comfortable to simply classify them as expendable, subservient machines, so you can use them and kill them as you please. That's how Slavery was justified in the real world too.
To me, Synths are people, just like Non-Feral Ghouls, Robots like Ada and Codsworth (and earlier Curie), even flippin' Supermutants (though that doesn't stop me from considering them my mortal enemy).
wut..?
Agreed, although most might think we're stupid for thinking Curie, Codsworth and Ada are people because they have freewill just because they're robots. These people just aren't thinking open enough. So yeah, I to believe synths and others sentient beings are people.
When synths break free of there programming. Like nick Valentine or paladin Danse. When there not controlled and branwashed by the institute. they can form there own thoughts and make there own decisions. Even synths controlled by the institute have a personality. Like x6 88 can make his own decisions as proof with your interactions with him where he can like your or hate you like any other companion. Except for dogmeat. Dogmeat never judges. So yes. I believe synths are people. Because they can make there own decisions and think for themselves.
Well. In the Fallout universe we know aliens are real. 1 or 2 species of alien have reach earth.
They are not biological, even if they are like people, it is, literally an abomination. Not that it is better, but it is artificial.
Does everyone brush over the fact that synths are just humans who were built? There is that one chick in the railroad who says "The only difference between you and me is it was fun making you"
T is for Tourettes that sounds like somthing glory would say
Problem is you simply can't "make" a fully functional full grown person, a person has to develop over a period of time called conception, what this game sort of implies is like real life Frankenstein of putting a bunch of crap together willy nilly, shocking it and hoping it does something. The complexity of the human brain alone is something you simply cannot produce, reality constrains every piece of what you're trying to convey here. Video game logic is not the same as real world logic..... you best discard every desire for mixing the two if you hope to mature enough to get past it. And the line *"The only difference between you and me is it was fun making you"* That is a play on words for having sex and conceiving a baby, you might be too young to understand that.
Same logic for stimpacks, radaway and radix, to boost your body's immune system and healing, with all of nutrients and hormones it would take to put healing into hyperdrive, to condense the amount of metabolism, reconstruction and removal of dead and damaged cells into a couple second...YOU'RE GONNA SHIT YOUR PANTS!!!!! Watch the science of stimpaks to see what that is all about, the fact this is a video game world and doesn't adhere to reality there is no reason to take anything in this game seriously including the idea you can produce a perfect fully grown human being in a matter of minutes, the naturalistic humanistic, atheistic, evolutionist bullcrap you've been fed is all nothing but that.
Yeah, and the fact that synths have a plastic component inside their head that make them have feelings. This is bullshit. You only think that synths are people because they look human. You can go fuck yourself like everybody who support synth rights.
@@ShaggyTheClown17 No shit it's a fantasy world, but IN this world humans can be produced artificially, with no difference besides the component. As shown in the game, IF you could produce a human brain indistinguishable from you or me, then it is indeed a person. Using real world logic misses the point
Nah. Curie and Codsworth have 2 big thing in common.
1. They've been up and running constantly for over 200 years while remaining in good repair, and they were programmed to be more open ended in their jobs (they weren't only guarding one room for 200 years not counting time offline).
2. They were programmed to be companion/servants and to mimic social skills. They were, in effect, programmed to mimic humanity in how they interacted with people and their environment.
I think they are both cases of emergent A.I. rather than designed. They're hardware was capable of handling that level of complexity, but not initially programmed to be sentient.
Charles Slaton
Basically they are able to learn sentience over time.
I think so.
I would agree with that...especially in the case of Codsworth. Lets be honest here...Codsworth survived the blast, was in Sanctuary when the Vault-Tec Rep lived there, saw all the neighbors die/turn to ghouls. Codsworth has seen some shit.
Could not have said it better.
James Roden Could explain why many of the caretaker robots became hostile to all life. Constantly attacked by others and in the case of codsworth when you first found him could be In a state of complete denial rejecting all reality and attacking anything thay could change what they want to think
In before Brotherhood followers fight Railroad followers :P Meanwhile I'll just be sitting here in my castle putting off helping that settlement that needs me ;)
you forgot the murder-clowns...
"Another settlement needs your help. Someone's been poisoned by a mirelurk."
"There are poisonous mirelurks?"
"Uh, no, they were just allergic to shellfish."
Are people STILL complaining about preston/radio freedom?
1. If you don't want preston/radio freedom to bug you, turn off the radio and send preston somewhere where you won't bump into him (murkwater is a good place). Not that hard.
2. Once all settlements reach a certain population point, radio freedom and preston stops giving out quests (at least in my game they do) anyway.
IAMELIPHAS Ithink it's more of a meme than an actual complaint at this point
Or you can just skip that whole quest line. When he yells at you to pick up the rifle and come join him... how is that your problem ? Once you cleared the raiders from the street, just ignore him. You can easily build something better than a dirty old laser musket...
I think a good explanation for pre-war robots like Codsworth, Ada, and Curie having very human like emotions comes down to both the personality subroutines, and time. The personality subroutines give robots access to a wide variety of both emotions, and knowledge on human mannerisms. This explains why robots like Codsworth in the beginning of the game show some basic emotions and mannerisms. When you later encounter Codsworth 200 years later, he's had time to think and dwell on his emotions. This large amount of time has allowed Codsworth to develop his own feelings and beliefs that he would not have normally been able to had he not had the subroutines switched on. Curie is also a great example of this as in the game it is said that she was specifically modified to be more human like, and in her terminal entries, you can see that in the beginning she was still very much robot like; unsure as to why the scientists gave her a terminal to write in, but with time she developed true emotions and feelings that befitted a human. KL-E-O is another great example of a robot developing real emotions as she straight up tells you that after a little while, she felt like she should become a free thinking woman, and not just a simple killing machine, (though she still does clearly enjoy killing things, lol).
So in summary, with both personality subroutines providing a starting ground for emotions, and Time to develop said emotions, pre-war robots can become sentient, and gain free will and human like emotions and feelings.
Honestly oxhorn is a synth
Modern philosophy, theory of supervenience, AI research and thought experiments, and Science Fiction... all of these have pretty much come to the conclusion that "if something so closely resembles humans in function as to be almost impossible to distinguish, then the attempt to distinguish such a thing is itself meaningless -- if something infinitely resembles a human, then by all definition, it IS a human."
Frankly speaking, "how they came to be" -- whether they were assembled/constructed by someone else artificially -- is actually IRRELEVANT to defining the sentience and humanity of a being.
So yeah. Synths are people. Or at least, they're people enough to be impractical to try and distinguish whether they're 'real' or not.
Gen3 synths are they’re made up of dead humans and have opinions literally just lab born people but also cyborgs with the chips but the old ones completely robot they have no emotions nothing just robots
For me, Synths are more like clones than robots of a sort... And I strongly defend the idea of all being people. I totally agree with your position over the Railroad way to do. I felt it really bad when I met Dima.
Some synths are literal clones, others are quasi-clones that are made up instead of being copied from a real person.
Alexandre Xavier but at the same time…
They kill people and replace them just so they can spy on people for usless information
Alexandre Xavier Thus the term "synth."
here's the thing most people including Dima don't get. the Railroad only wipes synths who want to be wiped, DiMA says that shouldn't be allowed. characters like Glory don't have to be wiped if they don't want to be
+TIMTRON ANIMATIONS TIM no they don't, the Institute does
Synths are immune to obesity? Hell, sign me up!
That's why I support the Minutemen. Equality for all, justice for the people, and strength through unity. Man, Ghoul, Mutant, Animal, or Synth all have a place and right to exist. Unless you wish to cause harm to the innocent.
And machine
Kell Kello You may like synths, muties, ghouls and animals, but your men usually do not agree with you.
Both MM general and Railroad member win win for me :)
Well, i agree with men, synths and various FEV and radiation mutants should have the same rights as long as they arent hostile, but animals are basicly food.
is that why you killed the mirelurk queen and her babies?
When I was about 5 my Dad sat me down for about an hour to tell me why he believes one should be treated the same as any other, regardless of their origin. He then encouraged me to think for a few days before telling him what I thought. I agreed.
I don't see Synths being any different to Humans in terms of how they should be treated.
@Renvis Why? Because Humans created them? Because they aren't Humans? Because they are too human? Please explain Further.
@@lordprotektorwurstgesicht6526 because it’s the decent thing to do
Yes and if we’re talking about gen 3 synths then yes absolutely it’s creepy since they’re made up of dead bodies but are actually semi organic so are like lab born children and are also cyborgs from the chips but old one are like just pure robots
You were 5 when fallout 4 came out?!
@@TXlowlifeTXbruh, they're saying they were 5 when they were given that lesson and used that lesson on the synths in the fallout universe. How did you misinterpret that?
"Is it when you were a wig?"
(LE GASP!!!) MY MOM IS A SYNTH! OH MY GOOOOOD!!!
You know who wears a wig. A synth. That's who.
If they can pass the Turing test, they're a person, simple as that for me.
your wrong because turing test was created in 1951 and in the fallout universe after ww2 the fallout universe and our universe separated so realistically... What are the chances of the turing test existing? quite low.
@@ltfreeborn and besides that test is flawed
I personally live off Descartes theory: nothing is real except that "I" exist as a thinking thing. I don't know if i'm human, my senses could be lying to me, I don't know anyone else is human, because I merely observe what my senses tell me. I then extrapolate this to this logic: I can't be sure i'm human, I also can't be sure anyone else is. So what if they are synths? Maybe I'm a synth, or maybe none of us exist, so what does it matter.
I've always thought the exact same thing
Well you are always going to be stuck thinking that if you don't just accept that our sense are the only way of communicating with reality. Descartes theory is merely to disregard all prior biases to find an infallible truth. And its a good thought experiment. But even thinking that you exist could be just a series of electronic impulses in your brain, it doesn't mean you actually existed. At some point you must establish what makes life morally valuable, that is what will give you the answer to the question of A.I.'s moral worth.
Descartes was a dumbass philosopher
@@esclavodelsistema9783 , all religious people are idiots, but even if Descarte was a secular philosopher his views on philosophy would still be true even in modern times.
@@esclavodelsistema9783 Another setlement need help. Let me Mark on your map
you know the brain is just a biological computer, we are flesh-robots
🤯
Not really. People have always compared the brain to whatever the most advanced piece of technology is at the time.
Revolvin Goatt wow that was Socrates level
Proof?
@Revolvin Goatt What you said makes no sense.
As i see it. If a Sentient robot can break all of Isaac Asimov's "Three Laws of Robotics" they're human.
That doesn't make them a human at all, it may mean they have human emotions but that wouldn't make them apart of the human species.
Sentient AI is a manufacture based on a human consciousness. They are emulating someone elses emotions. Not their own, and therefore lack humanity and are for, an abomination.
@@jutlan854 there are humans without human emotions. Are they robots now?
@@spacepseca6754 that is a terrible comparison, my point was that they are machines with emotions and that doesn't make them human. They aren't flesh and bones, they aren't the human species
@@jutlan854 the video said that they are flesh and bones. They have feelings and emotions as you said. That qualifies them as synths.
As for them snapping or being cleaned, that happens with humans as well.
I remember x6-88 saying something about growing up in the institute. Could be looked into?
Pretty sure the railroad memory wipe is optional for the synths.
I for one am not so sure. I find it sounds like they say "The mind wipe is... Optional."
I always notice a slight hesitation. Which makes me suspect that was not entirely accurate. Maybe not a complete lie but they do tell a synth they will be 'safer' if they have the mind wipe. The synth likely would just listen to that without a second thought.
Well, they definitely don't force it, but they strongly suggest it. Considering how naive and clueless most newly escaped synths are about the surface world, I would guess that almost every synth would go along with the recommendation.
Sure..it's optional to commit suicide right after you escaped slavery...sounds like murder to me.
yea it is
To me it never felt optional. It felt like it was forced so the railroad could stick to an agenda more then help the synths
Codsworth is a machine, he is a Mr Handy yet he talks about feeling and fears aswell. Is that his capability for independent thinking and judgement or is it his programming that dictates the right answer for your question? Does he know fear, does he have wishes? If what Codsworth tells you is triggered by his programming then its not far away from assuming that synths are programmed to believe in free judgement and independent thought. Their wish to escape or do things that they werent programmed to may well be a bug in that programming. And then they get memory wiped, I dont think you can do that with humans, or it isnt done in Fallout at least.
I think Bethesda did a pretty good job designing them as you can have whatever opinion about them as you like. You can assume that they are people that deserve freedom or you can think they are programmed machines. I've done both ingame, I have no opinion on the topic outside the game.
Btw the prewar military's best effort at artificial intelligence meeting human thinking is a robobrain, which is a very flawed design as we saw.
to be fair Codsworth and CVRIE have been developing their personalities for 210 years, Twice as long as DiMa
I was just going to say the same thing. We have limited interactions with Codsworth pre-war so it's tough to say how advanced his personality was then, but when we emerge from the vault he's been around for over 200 years developing his own individual personality. I remember reading that in Star Wars lore, for example, droids are meant to have their memories wiped regularly, but if they go for too long without getting wiped they will develop complex personalities like R2 and 3PO.
In the beginning of the game, after you meet Codsworth again, there is a speech check. He wants to hold back his self opinion. By passing it you see the pain he had been in in the past 200+ years. However still, his pain comes from not being able to perform his programmed job to serve you. Irremovable rust, stained tile floors and so on. His programming and self ability to think are entwined. He wants to maintain a happy status that all personal robots 'need' to have and yet, he has sorrow for your families absence. On a more comical note he gets great enjoyment from killing rad roaches (probably from them keeping the house dirty) Then there are the pieces of the story you get from just advancing in his trust. It has been so long even he has to relearn to trust you.
While having free thought, he and Curie both have strong loyalty. This loyalty can be broken, killing innocents, making people pay more for your service. They dislike the brutal ways even though he is programmed to follow you to the end.
As far as Robobrains go, they aren't much different from the extremists of our world. Seeing their skewed view as the only way, despite their programming.
Overall it is a interesting topic that allows for much discussion, passively and thought out. Or aggressively and very one sided.
I remember someone in the institute saying of repair them for stop them escaping or something like that, it was on the Synth retention (I think)
There's a very big difference between the Mr. Handy-line of robots and a Gen-3-Synth, a difference so big it even takes up an entire questline: "Emergent Behaviour". Curie points out that the Mr-Handy-Robots lack human cognition, denying them, as an example, the ability to improvise. Pre-war-robots can only think inside the confines of their programmed personalities, something synths are not hindered by.
of course AI will not be on the same level as human intelligence, it will surpass human intelligence
I disagree. AI may surpass human processing power someday, but it's intelligence will never surpass a human's.
*****
That is a topic we could argue months about. Just my thought. I am just looking at the evolution of technology of this and last century. But I do think that AI can learn from humans and perhaps become more like a 3rd gen synth from Fallout. It may sound crazy at first but just try to think into the future. As someone who dealt with robotics I do think that this learning process is very likely and just think of what people used to say about for example planes, that humans were never meant to fly and here we are using a plane for many purposes
Oxhorn: If 300 people each program one psychological trait of 1 coworker into the same robot, can that robot be "Person"?
Person-robots in my opinion are very obtainable. Especially if fear and creativity are the two entry requirements.
What machines lack is the sense of mortality. Machines don't fear death like humans, since they can always be revived. I think that kind of fear help Drives humans to push forward, while machines, they lack the confidence to push pass their boundaries.
Couldnt that fear of death be programmed in?
Synths ARE people! Danse suffers from PTSD, something requiring very real emotion. And not just gen 3s. Look at Nick (who is personally my favorite companion) and DiMa for example. They may not have flesh and blood bodies, but they still have feelings, personalities, emotions. Also I like the point you made about Codsworth and Curie (pre synth). They have their own personalities. Hell, Codsworth even has depression. So, I guess what I'm saying is that their people too. On a side note, I never thought about the fact that the SS is related to all gen 3s. So yeah. I feel awkward right now.
Also, sorry if my comment was kinda everywhere, I'm not good at that kind of thing XD
Enlighten me. How does Danse have PTSD?
The Name's Cris I really don't know what Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is really about as in what really the effects of it, but from what I see Danse does have it and the event that caused it was when his friend from rivet city which now I think about it probably wasn't even real since he can't age unless they made danse able to age, either way his best friend and Danse joined the Brotherhood of Steel and shortly after Danse was assigned to the Pydwen his friend squad went missing and Danse spearheaded (which I'm sure means led) a search squad and two weeks later found them all dead at a super mutant stronghold and then Danse I'm sure slaughtered them all and then ever since then he hated all non humans, he doesn't attack Strong (super mutant) John Hancock (Ghoul) Curie, Codsworth (robots) X6-88 (Synth) because the Sole Survivor wouldn't want his friends to die so he doesn't kill them, bit if any of them wasn't on friendly terms with the Sole Survivor especially Strong he would kill them, maybe not John Hancock since he is a leader of a good sized settlement and I'm sure the brotherhood wouldn't want to kill him.
So he has had a Traumatic experience in his life his best friend dying, to super mutants which led him to hate every non humans, so I do think Danse has PTSD because of the pain of him losing his best friend to the super mutants.
I support other synths besides humanoid ones
It is ok
I know I’m late to this conversation, but in my opinion synths should not be considered people. Nowadays, 6 years after this video was posted, AI is becoming very powerful, not to the scale of synths (obviously) but similar to that. For example, you can have full fledged conversations with Amazon Alexa and Snapchat AI, and this is only the start. There are some robots in the real world that are just like synths, I’m sure some of you have seen the videos. Anyways, my point is that if AI/robots in the real world got to the point that synths are at in the game, we would most likely want to destroy them before they take over, considering that they can’t age and hence would have far superior knowledge and power compared to actual humans. So, in my new play through of this game I am siding with the BoS, because I think of it from a real world standpoint like I mentioned before. In my first play through, 7 years ago, I sided with the RR because I thought that synths were deserving of a human life. But, now that I see what AI can become in the real world, I believe that the best choice is too destroy the synths before they become more powerful than they already are.
Great video Oxhorn. I agree that synths are people/sentient. I would also go ones step further and add that while I think the information about their physical/genetic make up is interesting, it is irrelevant for determining whether or not they are people (sentient). They could be talking toasters and to me, it wouldn't make any difference.
Being a lifelong sci-fi nerd, I've run into this sort of question numerous times with various different movies, games and books. I've come to adopt a "cogito ergo sum" philosophy: the famous "I think therefore I am" phrase, coined by a 17th century French thinker. He was more referring to the nature of existence itself but I would submit it applies equally well to consciousness.
If a being is able to think creatively and independently and has wants and/or desires not solely derived from their intrinsic nature (such as with animals) in my mind, they are conscious, at least in part if not wholly. I know there are some Chalmers fans out there (philosophical zombie) who will disagree with me but I tend to discount that view point.
The little exchange you showed, with the two synths talking about their missing associate, is all the proof that's needed That female synth was not programmed to worry about a missing friend. If she was following institute programming, she wouldn't concern herself with anything that did not affect her ability to perform her daily duties. The instant she had a thought, a curiosity, a notion outside the scope of her institute programming (noticing the absence of her associate/friend') she displayed consciousness on some level and it was then cemented by the fact that her response to that thought, was to experience the emotions of worry and concern.
A great story to watch about this is "The Measure of a man" from the second season of Star Trek Next Generation, which deals with a very similar issue.
I do disagree though, with your assertion that erasing their memories is erasing their minds. Sure, it's a drastic measure but their "minds" are still there, just as your mind would still be there if you had amnesia and had no memory of any events that happened before today. I'm sure their personalities will change as our experiences in life shape who we are and who we will become but I still see them as akin to a person with amnesia, not lifeless.
To be honest after playing binary domain a year before playing this game it felt similar to some of my beliefs playing this game. I talked about this on my long winded adventures of fallout 4 on my channel(first time reactions) so that's why I support the RR but they are a bit naive too as times.
Keep in mind that "mind wiping" DOES kill synths, or at least it has a chance too, hence the body Curie got. More importantly, the RR is very narrowminded in how they view and treat synths - sure, their (mostly) nice in their view, but are narrowminded nonetheless and not very flexible in how they treat synths.
They are unwillingly to change their own minds, but are happily willing to literally change the minds of synths with potentially disastrous personalities.
Hey Yeti do you have a source on "Synths can't reproduce?" I've been looking for an answer to the question of whether they can reproduce / have children
Mordecai McFly Not sure if you found anything but my guess would be no, they can't. If they can't age or get fat etc. (I.e. Grow) then I would think they wouldn't be able to make something that grew.
to EVERYONE who is saying things like "they're not people because they don't sleep" or "because they're immune to radiation" 1) Oxhorn has proven those wrong, and 2) the question is are they PEOPLE, not humans,
if you met a human who is able to live without sleeping, would you say they're not a person? no, you'd still consider him a person. so why can't synths, which are humans, just synthetic ones, be people too? even if they're not natural, they are still people, or at least Nick and gen 3 synths are, the ones that can think, they are people, because they are sentient, because their minds are what matter, not their bodies
He didn't prove shit, he proved that bethesta is to lazy to make synth a race in the game and just made their race human and added a synth component to their inventory. Talk to the scientists in the institute and they will tell you that synths are superior to humans cuz they don't have to sleep.
Synths don't even qualify as alive, living beings. They are imposters; biological machines with a piece of plastic in their head. What they "feel" is what a plastic component feels.
Preston Garvey they were made as tools to help clean up the instute
WolfydaWolf129 by what your saying codsworth is a person
WolfydaWolf129 and all y'all here they couldn't be people cause they're animations
I don't know about synths, but I know Soylent Green is people. 😜
MichiganJack soylent green is people?!
Soylent is people!
SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!
And yet since there isn't anything else to eat they still have to eat it, it's just now they know what they are eating instead of being blissfully unaware.
I do disagree with one thing. when you say that the railroad wiping memories destroys the soul, that's just like saying someone who has dementia or had amnesia suddenly has no soul.
A real boat the institute missed was, Valentine was a neural scan uploaded into a synth body. Why not become immortal by uploading into the perfect synth bodies etc etc. Just thoughts
4 year old comment but I wondered this too. They have robobrains synths all kinds of technology.. why would shaun die of cancer unless he just wanted to
@@swearsouls7822 synth bodies do not need food, water, sleep, and are also somewhat radiation resistant. You have teleportation tech too, colonize space and shit. ffs
@@soul1d they are biological so they have all the needs of a human, so they are not radiation resistany
Just transferring memories doesn't mean you come back to life. Unless they can think, feel etc everything a person can do, it won't work out that way. You'd need the ability to do a brain transfer.
@@downwithputinsaveukraine1313 If you make a synth brain and can transfer all of your memories into it with no or at least a negligible loss rate. How is it different. Immortality until you have a stroke or a bullet, a synth body with a human brain in it
Gen3's are people. some gen 2 prototypes might be "people" too.... like Nick and Dima
by "people" i of course mean that they should be treated as sentient beings, with all the rights and responsibilities that entails.
Yea it's why i really loved far harbor storyline truly fascinating expanding the lore of the institute
you're crazy as fuck, these abominations shouldn't exist at all and should be eradicated AD VICTORIAM
Nick and Dima are not gen 2. they are gen3 prototypes.
Wait. Synths aren't immune to obesity. There's Mayor McDonough.
True! Maybe he was engineered to be obese?
Oxhorn Maybe that's why he could not upgrade to courser
"We have Implants that can improve a Human being in every way!" (Kellog)
"Scrap that programm, lets clone Human slaves and have them replace real humans, thats where the future of Humanity lies!" (Gen3)
"Flesh is flesh, machine is machine. The two were never meant to intertwine"
What about pacemakers?
Kim Dillon pacemakers are tools to survive. Just like a house, the flesh resides in the house to survive.
_Said by a dude full of implants wearing power armor_
Say the one Who has machine to enchance già strenght
HELLO! have you met humans? We have been 'intertwining' with machines for well over 10,000 YEARS!?!
The Brotherhood... wants to know your location.
Data was a person, Deckard was a person. Ghouls and gen 3s are people. Even super mutants. If it's sentient, it counts.
superbadgerdoom synths aren't sentient
kalo dos Yes they are. The only difference between a human and a synth is the synth component.
@@kaloyandraganov9462 but they are, they are capable of making choices based off of their morals, they are capable of loving, and hating and being sad. they are more human the some normal people.
Are Robo-brains human?
Saying a synth ain't a human is the same as calling a person having a memory wipe like amnesia or something a machine.
Codsworth and Curie seem to me like highly unusual, but sort of expected unusual given their time 'lived'. Both are well over 200 years old and have been seemingly sheltered. Codsworth less so than Curie, but was fortunate in that none of his coding got bugged over that long time. It SEEMS to me as if robots like Whitechapel Charlie is no different from Codsworth in this as well as he developed a mind that seems to be very selective in who he takes umbrage to and who he likes. The Mister Handy one (who I forgot the name of) in Diamond City that scoffs at you for being "lower class" seems to be such due to coding rather than opinion. The Miss Nanny one that marries the Teacher (if you encourage it) ALSO seems to be just another Curie - even more human than her if you will given her kindness and emotion of love. Curie never shows this affection as a Miss Nanny, this only shows when she's a Synth.
I basically think that all Miss Nanny and Mister Handy robots develop human traits and even self-awareness over time. Much like Synths do. It is said the same, or at least speculated, about humans too. How far back can you remember where you ACTIVELY made a choice based on experience and knowledge? I remember making choices into my 5th year, but not because I knew what would happen. Simply because I was "forced" to make a choice. Like a toy of my choice or selected for me. Can I claim awareness of my choices back then? My first TRUE choices that I remember that I can claim were of own free will would be much later. I can't remember the name of the philosopher/psychologist, but when asked about when he gained conciousness he says he remember it as if "..walking out of the mist one day" and suddenly seeing the world clearly. As if he spent all his childhood incubating as a vessel to contain his conciousness, then one day when the body was ready his "soul" inhabited the body or was activated. This could be in a sort of way be the same for Synths and the robots, except maybe they need to take time to build this experience and CAN fail to ever reach this 'activation'. Maybe there is something to be said about the soul and it can inhabit any concious being, robotic and human alike, but it needs the groundworks laid. Failure to reach this level resulting in corruption. In humans showing as sociopathic tendencies and psychotic acts where a sense of right and wrong, morals, would inhibit you. A soulless being only interested in self gratification or preservation.
Speculation, speculation and more speculation. But isn't that what we're here for?
"No way to determine whether someone is a synth or not without killing them." Literal Pre-War X-Rays in medical facilities in the game: "Am I a joke to you?"
Star Trek: The Next Generation explored this question in depth in the episode "The Measure of a Man." I view the Synths in the same manner I view Data. They are intelligent, self aware and are capable of growth. They have hopes dreams and passions. The only difference between people and synths is in the name. Synth. . . .synthetic. They are people artificially created but people still the same.
What a great video! I definitely agree.
Are microwaves people?
Yes. I talk to mine all the time :) It's a great conversation most days.
Microwaves don’t have a personality
Depends on if it overcooks the hotpocket.
“Does this unit have a soul?”
You could x-ray their head looking for the synth component
A man chooses, a slave obeys.
I know I am late, but I read your comment and thought of something.
Piper believes synths are EVERYWHERE in diamond city. Everyone believes this.
Are all of the Diamond City residents slave to the belief that synths are out to get their moms, dads, brothers, sisters, and pets?
Just a thought.
stumbled across this channel and recognised the voice instantly. ROFLAMO was my first favourite on youtube, I was listening to the anti-elf anthem as recently at the other day, I've grown up with your videos Oxhorn, and I'm happy to see even after quitting, making a new channel nd starting again I can still randomly stumble across your content.
Thank you.
Awe thanks so much, glad you found my new channel!
I did the exact same thing, now I'm stuck watching videos for hours. We missed you Oxhorn!
TheLittleApocalypse I recognize that voice too!!!!! From Cast away!!!
In the first playthrough, I sided with the Institute because of a single event. While the Gen 3 Synths seem to behave in every way like a person, there's one single way they don't, and to my mind, that's the most important one. They cannot exercise true free will.
In the Institute missions, you are sent to retrieve a Synth the Railroad has (for some strange reason) reprogrammed into a homicidal Raider leader. The Raider leader very much wants to remain independent and continue his lifestyle. So much so that he'll level the entire zone to stop you. But the *moment* you say a single line of spoken text, the Synth immediately becomes passive, and accepts your orders. In essence, that moment when the Synth has the *choice* of the life it wants for itself and the life the Institute wants for it, the machine completely surrenders and follows orders. In essence, it lacks the ability to tell the Institute Courser to go jump off a cliff, it's not going back. So in that very important context, it lacks free will.
If the Synth lacks the ability to refuse an order it doesn't want to follow, then I would argue the Gen 3 Synths are very realistic "Brontosaurs." (An AI term for a near-miss in AI research.) It's *almost* a person. But since it cannot refuse an order given to it by an Institute officer, and will passively accept reprogramming in the process, it's a very convincing near miss.
What this means is that the Institute has a responsibility to not let these things run amok. They're so close that they're almost perfect. But that also means they're really hard to predict, with all the side effects and quirks the game demonstrates. Maybe the process can be perfected eventually, but until you have a Synth who can receive an order and tell the Institute officer to take off, they aren't ready for prime-time, and remain a threat to the world at large. They *are* a near miss, however, and thus confer a responsibility on the Institute and the Player, to watch out for their well being as the process is perfected.
That's not how I saw it at all. The Railroad doesn't reprogram synths. You're right--it would be very odd for the Railroad to program a synth to be a raider captain. Which they didn't do. The Railroad helps escaped synths through a voluntary mind wipe. When they come out the other end, they have free will, and can choose which path to take. Sadly, that synth chose to be a raider. That very quest you mention is evidence that synths have free will (because the Railroad would have never freed a synth knowing it would go on to perform atrocities.). The recall code only proves that they are not human. The recall code doesn't give them a moment of clarity where they can choose right from wrong. The recall code shuts them down--it removes ALL free will, even the will to be conscious.
Doesn't a terminal on that guy's ship say that he used to be in the Minutemen before the whole Quinsy thing, too?
Here's the logical fallacy in your argument: In the Fallout 4 game, when you give the override command, you aren't handcuffing the synth, forcing it into a prison cell, and then hammering it with riot sticks when it fails to follow commands. Your concentration camp example is what those would all more or less be like.
In the game, you give a command, and it goes off and does it. To use your concentration camp example, a person is brought there. They don't want to be there. They want to leave. They even fight your guards to leave. Finally, the commander of the camp stands in front of you, and simply says, "By my right as your superior, I order you to strip naked, walk into the prison, and let yourself be shot." And the prisoner simply strips off their clothing and walks off to be shot. No coercion or anything. And the moment the prisoner starts this, the guards walk away and the commander goes off and does paperwork. The way to freedom is totally unguarded and nothing is stopping the prisoner from running. But he won't, because he's been given a command he cannot disobey.
That's the fundamental flaw in Fallout 4 Synths. And why I consider them to be a near-miss. They can express individuality right up until the point where someone gives them an order which suspends their intelligence programming and reduces them to automatons. If they cannot override this, and cannot exert freedom of will to refuse such a self-destructive order, then they aren't free-willed. If they aren't free-willed, then they are machines by virtue of elimination. It's a work in progress.
Kitsudragon Your logic makes sense
But do humans have free will? Thats the whol point of the game.
and Magnolia...You forgot Magnolia alongside Curie and Danse...
I dont know why my mind was so quick when thinkig about that...
3:10 i think its more of a checkup of the body, you know, to see if anything is somehow wrong
and the little rods that shock it is probably doing the same thing as a defribillator, ie. "waking" the heart
and the vat of *liquid* may be the things required for it to do the rest, maybe the last bits of "blood" and to aid cell-growth. But also to "revive" it
also if they all have the same DNA as Father, then well, you *could* test for DNA
This helped me to decide what to do with the institute in my current game.
Just found your channel today, really appreciate your work on fallout 4 !
So what did you decide?
I just have a general question. Why do the synths not like the institute? It seems like the railroad is just telling them they shouldn't live like how they are, but the institute wouldn't hurt their own synths. They have everything taken care of, so why run away? My video game question turned into a Huxley dystopia...
exactly those synths should be grateful we are putting food on there table
Baker Tankersley not really, they do the same amount of work as the scientists, except you could argue the synths do less work then the scientists... all they do is mop and run shops and then live in a luxurious clean working space, also gen 1 and 2 synths are the ones you really see working, gen 3 usually just do whatever they want or are coursers so they live pretty well
chedder140 ^ this guy gets it
chedder140
a Luxury prison is still a prison. They synths are capable of individual wants. Wants thats thr institute does not provide and activly threatens Soul Wipe should they even consider. Really itsbthe institutes fault for the synths Not liking their position has a Luxury slave.
Blue★ yes but if they count as people then that saying "people don't know what they want" apply s to them as well because they are choosing a peaceful life inside a clean and protected home for the utter shit hole which is the commonwealth..... if they weren't built by someone that cares so dearly for there well being they would count as slaves or prisoners but all they really are stupid machines who are in are more akin to children rather than people and the only want's to go where they aren't allowed because FUCK THE MAN, MAN!!..... if you truly think about it the institute are only protective parents and yeah they make mistakes but really what parent don't?
This video is considered a hostile act against the Brotherhood. The fact you are so misguided to believe machines deserve free will.
Y'all better leave my darling Curie alone...
This is the Cassandra(tm) brand questionnaire for if something is a person or not.
1 is it sentient?
2 does it have free will?
3 is it capable of understanding the rules of a human society?
4 could it be considered culpable or held accountable for its actions? (if it committed a crime could you put it on trial)
5 is it capable of real genuine emotions?
If the answers to all these are yes then it's a person.
Just watch Steven Spielberg's A.I. Artificial Intelligence. Then decide whether Synths should treated as equal or not.
I still rankle at the idea that all these intellectual, analytical Institute scientists continue to consider gen 3 synth "just machines" despite all the myriad evidence to the contrary.
Yeah that's one of the things that bug me about the institute as well. However I think it was meant to be intentional to show they're in denial.
@@sabergreen2010 Their not in denial...it's just an easy excuse to keep their conscience clean. If they repeat enough times "These are not peopke, these are machines" they can actually trick themselves into believing the lie.
I see. I guess it confuses me because of Father's holotape and that these guys are supposed to be scientist. So it seems weird that they'd be so stuck on a hypothesis despite so much evidence to the contrary.
@@sabergreen2010 In real life the most intelligent people have a higher tendency to suffer from superiority complexes and thus are less likely to actually realize when they might be wrong.
I guess that makes sense. It seems like the only ones who seem to realize the Synths sentience are the Binets. Everyone else seems to put themselves in an echo chamber.
Yeah, I wish there was an actual ending where you go for the Synths themselves, as you say, even the Railroad is flawed in how they treat them.
So many missed opportunities in this game. Still fun though.
The synths are the ones who suggest and organize the revolt against the Institute in the Railroad ending. The Railroad just helps.
I think willful disobedience is a good indication of intelligence, which is a stepping stone on the way to humanity. For example, there was a gorilla named Koko that was famous for having learned sign language. Detractors said she wasn't intelligent, that she was just making signs she knew would get her food. Her trainer refuted this, saying that when Koko was asked to pose for pictures and smile, she would sign "smile" with her hands and frown with her lips.
I say that animals aren't people and shouldn't be given the same rights, but when animals do things that sound like something I used to do as a child (and who hasn't stuck their tongue out in a family photo as a kid?), the waters start to get awfully murky
I became the leader of the institute and the minutemen, yet my settlements get attacked by the institute (finch farm and coastal cottage), coastal cottage was where the settler synths activated and notably a ghoul settler was a synth. This is all very odd, how does a synth become a ghoul, is it made by the institute? Is it by radiation exposure after the railroad wiped it?
If they have living cells they are affected by radiation exept obviously in real life radiation makes you unable to have children, have cancer or just vomit all your blood not become a zombie so this doesnt have to be a 100% scientifically acurate
The true hubris is in thinking that humans are anything more than the most advanced electro-chemical machines (we know of). This idea that we cannot create human-like minds mechanically is NOT shared amongst comp-sci professors, most believe it is a matter of when, not if.
Jack Stewart too many people think humanity is a special precious thing. Some people need to embrace absurdism and post humanism lmao
I love humans, were incredible creatures. But we're not unique in our intelligence we simply got a step ahead of the other species. Even now there are signs that some modern species are evolving to be more intelligent and/or dexterous as well. So what's stopping us from synthesizing a learning algorithm that allows ai to feel. We already have taught ai to comprehend and read human expressions and emotions, so we're pretty close.
@@corv1d770 Lol. Nooooooooooooooooooo. You are about as wrong as can be xD
@@Monoochrom How is that Person wrong?
@@rigel9228 1. We aren't just a step ahead of other Species. As Intelligent as some other Life is, they still aren't even in the same Ballpark as humans. To even suggest as much really just shows that the person has no meaningful understanding of just how large of a gulf is between Humans and even their runner ups in terms of intelligence, seriously, it isn't even close.
2. The same can be said about Computers and AI. Is essence they are really just good with Mathematical Logic. They can't really think as of yet and simply function too different to a human brain, though there is some work going on in computing more similar to the way a brain works. People overestimate what tech is really capable of because they find certain aspects of it impressive. In reality your Computer is dumb as bricks and can really only do whatever people tell it to do. You could teach a Computer to mimic Emotion, you couldn't give it actual Emotions, as they function, they are bound to the parameters that Humans give them, even such algorithms that can learn can only do so within the confines of what context is given by humans. A Computer can't think. What's truly impressive is what Humans can accomplish with Machines, not the Machines themselves.
You can find out that synths CAN age and gain weight, but it's something that has to be 'switched on' or programmed in.
Also, Gen 3 synths dream! Something that is purely a machine don't dream.
Star Trek: TNG - The Measure of a Man Captain Picard asked a very simple question. Prove to the court I am sentient. In this episode, the requirements for sentience is 'Intelligence, Self-Awareness, and Consciousness.' This can easily be applied here. Are synths intelligent? Yes, they have the ability to learn, understand, and cope with new situations. Are Synths self-aware? Nick and others have displayed many times that they are aware of themselves, their own actions and consequences there-in, and their ego. Seems reasonably self-aware to me. Do they have consciousness?
The personal Synth at the Institute can LITERALLY dream-- you can overhear her husband talk to another Institute scientist about how he witnessed her having a dream in her sleep.
@@brennenmyers3367 Do Androids dream of electronic sheep
As a student of computer science with a interest in robotics, I can tell you we can make them ''feel'' and ''think''. We even have created a robot capable of recognize and understanding emotions (PEPPER robot). Also, the definition of thinking and feelings is very personal. One will experience differently from another. So saying they are people because they can reproduce personality is saying a talking toaster is a person. A.I. works on experiences, but with if and else.
Dose this robot desire to be free?
I think Curie and Codsworth are special cases. Curie was made or nodded to have some level of creativity to develop the cure-all. And that ability to be creative allowed the ability to lie and to develop a personality over time. Some other handys and nannys develop personalities as well, but not all of them. Codsworth says he is made special to help male sole survivor with PTSD from the war, so he has the ability to empathize, which I think made him able to develop a personality. Sort of like the droids in Star Wars.
Kellogg doesn't have a synth component, he has cybernetics.
Just correcting you
Gen 3 synths are Cyborgs. Fifth element? I was thinking of Blade Runner. your body, for example your data code in a Machine. also glad you covered this topic.
Matt Shack I'm pretty sure he was just likening the creation of Synths to that of the creation of Lelo in Fight Element.
Derogon oh yeah, I remember that scene.
Cyborgs? The only thing the have synthetic usually is the Synth Component or Courser chip. They may be stronger and sturdier than humans, but not because their components are artificial. Even the bones can't be 100% synthetic -- Bone marrow is key in blood cell production. They've been designed and grown that way. I suspect the Synth component is only there to enforce the Recall codes -- It must be tapping in to sensory input and instituting an enforced sleep and/or paralysis to the brain and/or nervous system. The definition of cyborg is "a person whose physiological functioning is aided by or dependent upon a mechanical or electronic device. " When I think cyborg I think artificial(mechanical) limbs and organs. The only cyborg I've seen in the game is Kellogg -- needed for life extension?
Mark Brinkman oh right
+Mark Brinkman you made some good points I agree i think the synth / courser component is just there to alter the brainwaves to make you fall asleep. Also i think it's there to allow you to teleport to and from the institute
Gen 3 Synths have fears and curiosity. It makes them close enough to human.
No, it doesn't. Are cats and dogs close to humans to you?
Are ants human to you?
its just emulating those things anyway not actually experiencing them
5:57 Kellogg didn’t contain a synth component but rather a cybernetic brain augmenter that resembled the hippocampus which is why you were able to see his memories and trigger Kellogg’s way of explaining each detail of them as you pressed the word “access memories”. But yeah they kind of have similarities.
This is why the Voight-Kampft test was created
Robots are like people. As long as 1. They are self aware, and 2 they have their own free will to some degree.
If the entity in question is capable of understanding the question: "are you a person?" then he/she/it/etc is probably a person.
oxhorn, when the synth says she feels, she's worried for the other synth. I'm surprised you missed that.
Although if you look at Sturges and Magnolias facial features you can tell there is something up you know?
Synths,super mutants and ghouls are all people, that's why I destroyed both Institute and Brotherhood
Gen 3 synths contain less robotic parts then some modern day humans.... >_>
During my Institute play through, I realised how helpless the railroads beliefs are. They allowed all of bunker hill to be caught in the cross fire and lose dozens of their soldiers lives to save just 4/5 synths. It’s a good cause but they risked so many lives.
The way I see it, you become the leader of the institute, so you can decide how the institute continues from then on, allowing more free synths like Nick.
Once again another missed opportunity from our friends at bethesda. The world operates in so many grey areas in real life and rarely is anything ever so black and white. Having hybrid options for the endings would have made sense. You play through become general of the minute men and a highly trusted agent for the railroad and the brotherhood, then father (shawn) offers to have you become the successor to the institute. So why couldn't we tell the railroad and the brotherhood "its all good im incharge now I'll get these crazy eggjeads under control and we can start building something really special out of the commonwealth". Why, ill tell you why because that wouldn't have been satisfying for people who just want to blow shit up at the end of the game. Fucking shit.
"An illusion, no matter how convincing, is still just an illusion". Replace illusion with imitation and there is the point. A synth or other type of A.I. will only ever be an imitation of life.
Or not. There is no way to tell the difference ever.
I think it's really weird how they are supposed to medically indisdinguishable from real humans, yet they still have programming language and can receive recall codes and whatnot. Surely there would be something different going on in their heads at least....though I suppose this could just mean wasteland doctors can't detect them, they don't exactly have access to MRI machines and the like.
Why is it that whenever I hear the phrase "I don't think we'll ever be able to create [X variable] technology."
I interpret as "We won't be around long enough as a species to do so."?
you are wrong about the humanity never developing AI part. most experts agree by pasimistic evaluation that by 2050 we will have the technology to creat human level AI . and considering the current researchintrest in the matter its an inivalibility .
I wish they wouldn't. It's kind of fucked up and unnecessary.
***** no . hollywood thought that. not expert in computer science and electrical engineering.
i would say gen 3 synths qualify as human beings to be honest. dolly the sheep clone was still a sheep. and that's what gen 3 synths pretty much are, clones. one was grown and one was manufactured but literally every part of them is human except for the synth component which i think if i remember correctly is only there so the institude can control them. going onto the more broad definition of "people" i think gen 2's like nick count. hell, i think codsworth and the miss nanny version of curie even fits my definition of a person. they have feelings, aspirations, free will, and are on the same level of intelligence as human beings. they may have been programmed like that but in the end they're still able to make their own decisions and create their own paths. the institude didn't program nick to eventually become a detective and help so many people and curie's creator didn't program her to want to become a synth to contribute to science. i wouldn't count creations like gen 1 synths or other types of robots as people though because those feeling and free will aspects don't seem to exist. but i honestly don't see how all other synths aren't people.
I feel that some of the best evidence that synths are people comes when Curie admires you. Flirt twice and you learn that she can experience emotions and now has different thought patters
I can't help but be reminded of the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "The Measure of a Man".
"This case has dealt with metaphysics, with questions best left to saints and philosophers. I am neither competent nor qualified to answer those."
For the record, I'm on team synths are people.
Now what would happen if you surgically removed the synth component from a synth? In my mind, they would just be like any other human, or at least a clone, minus aging and reproduction, but it is possible they really can, and the Institute hasn't figured it out yet. If they were surprised at the gen 3's free will and conscious mind, they may not know what else they can do.
It brings me back to the clone troopers in Star Wars, they were manufactured from the DNA of a host, Jango Fett (Shaun). They were programed to be obedient/execute order 66 through the inhibitor chips (synth component) placed in their brains at birth. But as seen with Fives, Rex, Gregor and Wolfe, once those chips are removed they are free thinking, independent people.
My philosophy is focused around Replaceability. How expendable something is.
I consider Life to be something that is basically Irreplaceable. If you kill a person, you can't bring that person back. But if you destroy a generic Mr. Handy, you can always rebuild or buy a near-identical copy.
So I think that Codsworth at the start of Fallout 4 is expendable. He's basically just fresh out of the box. However, Codsworth post-war has 200 years of experiences that would be neigh-impossible to reprogram. As a result, his life should be given a bit more value.
I have the same logic with Gen 3 Synths. If they've only just been built, that means you could easily just create an exact duplicate, as there has been basically nothing to make them unique. But something like Curie, who has not only ~200 years of experience, but also has been a labor of love from a scientist who had basically nothing else to do with his spare time besides program her, and is now dead?
Curie is irreplaceable. If she's killed, there's no chance in hell that you'll ever be able to make a new one.
So yes, I feel that it is possible for Synths to reach a point where their lives should be given the same value as a human's life. But they do not necessarily default to that state.
Only by reaching a point where they are Absolutely Irreplaceable should they be considered a Person.
Finn Underwood, he never defined people as living in his working definition.
Hol' up here...then doesn't that mean babies are expendable considering they're new and have no experience or personality and are basically a drooling clean slate?
What puts the thought to rest that Synths aren't people is to look no further than the Synth who took over the Raider gang at Libertalia because he showed the capacity for cruelty, malice, and sadism. Cruelty is a purely human concept. Animals and machines are incapable of doing things out of cruelty and sadism because they lack the emotion for hatred and depravity. There is no glitch that would explain torture and mutilation out of pleasure.
synth's subroutines are supposed to emulate human emotions and judgement, so it's not impossible that they're not people.
I think you underestimate the emotional capability of animals
umbalaba what do you mean by that
Nicholas Bryant You never saw a well-fed cat hunt a mouse for fun, did you?
Your videos are the best for fanfic research! The information is always to the point but also entertaining :D
so Ox, when you do encounter "shaun" before leaving the institute at the end of the game, he IS actually your son but a different generation of your son, your grandson. your son is technically your sons father. To get to the point and to end rambling the kid synth shaun is actually your grandson and to leave him to die in the institute your killing your own grandson along with the rest of your grandchildren being every gen 3 synth in post apocalyptic America. Shocking. All and all your videos spark these ideas into my head and i would like to thank you, if you happen to see this.
A group of scientist (perhaps in USA but I'm not sure) are now trying to build a simulation of human brain before 2023, which is quite likely to be before Fallout 5.
If you give something free will then you might as well consider it a person. Ada has free will because of her personality mode so if you want to you can consider her a person just like a synth
My Original character ended as a member of the institute and it still happened, but only in the Slog, Graygarden, and The Drive In. It happened to me. It actually appears to be a hidden stat that I call the 'Glitch Stat' referring to how the Synth in the broken mask incident 'Glitched' if the Institute is to be believed
Much as I love the Brotherhood of Steel (Ad Victoriam!), I find myself at odds with Elder Maxson, as I don't think the synths are human, cause they clearly aren't, however I do believe they are people, for the same reason why Commander Data is considered a person by the Federation and Starfleet. Intelligence the synths have in abundance, at least to the same extent that common settlers do if not more so, and are fully capable of learning and understanding. Self Awareness, the synths understand who they are, and indeed what they are, and understand the concept of the self, and ego. As for the concept of consciousness, may as well ask if they have a soul, and that's better left between them and God. So I am forced to err on the side of liberty and assume that the synths are people until it is proven that they are incapable of learning and understanding, and that they have no concept of ego and the self.
TheSparda81 Arthur is a moderate when you really look at him as a person the general you see is a front underneath he is as complex of a character as you can get. The BOS has a point in the talk about what caused the bombs to drop.
Season 2, Episode 9. One of my favorite.
I'd watch Star Trek all day if it was nothing more than Picard monologues about human rights lol
TheSparda81 They might process what is going on around them, but they aren't 100% human.
Keeping in mind my other comment about their ability to regulate their body at a metabolic level I think one sure fire way of telling whether or not someone is a synth or not would be to just see if they eat a butt load of candy if they later produce waste that has unmetabolized sugar in it. Seeing as their bodies are metabolically perfect they probably don't have a microbiome in their gut to metabolize things that the body ignores. It might just be that no one has thought to check that. And even if they do have microbes in there intestines to cover the tracks afterward I suppose one could always extract the waist directly out of the small intestine before it has had a chance to be passed into the large one that way you could see whether or not the body chose to ignore any sugars that would still be sitting there, which would in a normal person be completely broken down and absorbed by that point.
ok
Can you imagine how much of a powerhouse the BOS would’ve been if they had adopted a slightly more Railroad-like mentality to the synths? They’d just have an endless stream of recruits via the synths they help escape the Institute. Their goal could’ve just been to liberate the synths and stop production of more.