The debate is over: departments choose 9mm over .40 because some of their officers don't handle the .40 very well and everyone, therefore, must be issued the less capable caliber. By that logic we should all abandon 12 gauge for 20 gauge. An ER doctor who was in one of my classes carried a .45. I asked him why such a big caliber. He said, "Because we don't see many wounds in the ER from calibers that start with '4'. They usually go straight to the morgue. In the ER we get mostly .22's and 9mm's."
Actually with slugs, a pretty convincing argument could be made for a 20, or the original loads for the 12. I have some commercial slug load that hit the shoulder and roar worse than the 458.
This video is disingenuous at least and misleading at worst. The ballistics tables do not show a negligible difference in performance at the top end of these rounds. It’s quite clear that which rounds edge the others out. 357sig can put up numbers inside 10mm and 357 mag territory. 9mm is argued only in the sense of practicality. With a well placed shot it is enough to stop would be attackers. It’s cheaper than the rest to shoot and it’s easier to manage in similar sized pistols. It is not as powerful as any other round mentioned in this video. 9mm is a fine round. 45acp is a fine round. The fact is tho that 357sig is superior to 40sw and 40sw is superior to both 9mm and 45acp. The rest is bs. You literally shot the 40 better in this video and didn’t even mention it as it went against your prediction haha.
Paul Harrell has an excellent comparison of 9 and 40 without 15 minutes of resume fatigue. Barriers, accuracy, speed, numbers, actual comparison, etc. check it out.
This seems needlessly critical. Anecdotal evidence is interesting and valuable to some in the evolution of carry calibers. No one forced you to watch. Though if they did, please let me know and I'll come rescue you.
Paul Harrell put this 9mm vs .40 S&W battle to rest a long time ago. But, in my humble opinion, arguing about pistol caliber is like debating who is the best sex partner to procreate with. It's just silly.
Interesting analysis. Used a 1911A1 in 45 Auto for 3 years in S.E. Asia with 230gr G.I. ball ammo with excellent results in actual close quarters combat. Eight years later, I was a peace officer carrying a S&W mod 28 357mag revolver. Was involved in three shootings. I walked away from them. As a patrol officer for 4 days a week, and armorer for the 5th day, I worked on the department weapons. Later, an additional assignment, I ran the officer involved shootings team. There,I investigated, studied, and reported to the chief of police on these shootings. And, of course, I was not approached by command when they decided to switch to autoloader pistols. The PD chose the Beretta 92F 9mm. 😒 Our rate of fire/effective hits rose from 1.3 rounds expended with the .357mag, to 4.8 rounds with the 9mm. I was not surprised. So, looking back to the many single hits from the 1911A1 I used where highly motivated and professional NVA soldiers fell to the 45 Auto. And the ARVN troops I fought with using 9mm pistols firing multiple times in combat, I'm relatively confident in comparing these results with that in the PD's choice of the 9mm. In exchange of rounds in close combat with handguns, the 9mm is inferior to larger, more powerful rounds. This is solely based upon personal experience, and statistical analysis of shootings of police officers against armed criminals within the agency I was employed. So do I now, long retired, have large caliber revolvers personality? Yes, several. And do I own any autoloader pistols? Yes, two. Both 1911A1 in 45 Auto. Any polymer 9mm's in my safe? Nope. Not a single one. I personality will only use what I know what is effective, and discard which is not. Now all you younger shooters, who only punch paper and gelatin, with no combat experience, can begin the howls of declaring me a Fudd. Fine. Call me whatever you like. Won't phase me a bit. 😏
I'm just a target shooter and not overly good, I've got a Beretta 92F, a CZ preB , and a Ruger 1911. I'm more accurate with the 1911, than the other 2 despite the bigger recoil. Why? Because of the trigger pull, the 1911 is so much better imo.
@@johnod1955 You bet! The 1911's trigger design is pure genius! Back in the 80's and 90's, I operated a gunsmith business on the side. I was building 3 to 4 custom 1911's a month. I'd guarantee that they'd hand cycle a full mag of empties or no charge. I really believe that the 1911 design is as good as it gets.🙂
I switched from 9mm to 45acp last year and I have no regrets. I was actually surprised at the recoil impulse of the 45 - it isn't so much snappy as much as it pushes your gun back. I like it
Well... we aren't using ball ammo for self-defense. The 9mm velocity, ability for quick follow-ups, and capacity far outweigh any 45acp benefits in self-defense or combat period!
My department issued the Glock 23, .40 caliber, before my ‘97 retirement but I don’t recall anyone having trouble qualifying w/it that didn’t also have the same problem w/the issued thirty-eight revolver. I survived a 1974 gunfight w/my issued Colt Detective Spl 38. revolver and agree with carry what you shoot the best. Caliber wars are nonsense.
You and I seem to watch the same videos ! LOL. I really enjoy reading your comments. I take the advice of a man who has been on a 2 way firing range very seriously. Thank you Sir for sharing your real world experiences - and thank you Sir for your service.
@@c-jam6392Our department wanted a gun for both duty & off duty carry and the medium size G23 seemed to fill that role nicely. That said the requirement to carry off-duty was dropped shortly before I retired in ‘97.
I agree. Carried the 40 caliber for most of my career. Retired a while ago. My department went back to 9 mm because the beta males and females couldn’t fire it.
In a full size pistol sure I agree with you but most people don't want to conceal a full size pistol, and in a compact or subcompact that recoil is gonna get way more stout. 9mm subcompacts have good capacity and the recoil is manageable, this is only from the perspective of an average citizen not in any professional capacity
Howdy Sheriff, I'm a retired Texas peace officer with 40 years in, a TCLEOSE (now TCOLE) licensee to teach law enforcement classes and law enforcement firearms. I have never worked for a department that issued firearms to the officers. Instead, each one (6 total) had a written policy which said each officer must supply their own duty weapon (handgun). Further, that weapon must be: 1) made by a high quality manufacturer, 2) at least a .38 spl caliber (no maximum specified at the time), 3) DA/SA revolver or an automatic. It was further explained that one should carry the most powerful caliber that one could reliably/consistently hit the target with. The choice was left to the officer because it was the officer's life on the line. I started off with a .357 S&W with a 6" bbl. I was "normal sized" back then (6' /220lbs.). I carried duty weapons, at one time or another, in each of the following calibers: .357, .45 Colt, 9mm, 40 cal., 10mm, and .45ACP. I eventually settled on 10mm for the last 15 or more years of my career. I sometimes carried a .45 1911 for my light work days, and a .40 cal when just "running to the store." I never would work for a department which had a policy which requited me to carry ONLY what the least capable shooter in the department could hit with. I had a Capt. once explain the need for standardization. "If you come up on a scene and the first officer there needs more ammo, you can hand him one of your magazines." Nope, nope, NOPE! It that officer fired all his ammo (three 15 round mags and one in the chamber for a total of 46 rounds) and didn't stop the fight, then I'll be dammed (litterally) if I allow him to waste my ammo, and endanger the public further with their poor shooting. Sorry for the wall of text, but I had a lot to say.
You obviously were never in the military, because if everybody in the military just thought me me me me me me, then everybody have a different caliber a different gun and their shit wouldn't work together. Way to be a team player!🙄
I agree. The gel test energy dump in the first 6" is very different. They might all stop at the same point, but if the caliber has more energy when it hits the target and stops at the same place, it has to transfer more energy in a smaller distance.
@literallynobody1515 logical fallacy. It's cost prohibitive for departments to adopt over conventional hollow points. When you're ordering ammo in the millions of cartridges, you can see where the budget can get bloated. Personally I'm not a fan of the Civil defense loadings as I prefer to have more penetration with a projectile that's retained weight. The extreme defender, however, is my preferred choice in carry ammo.
My brother in law is a retired sheriff deputy whose service time was when .40 S&W years as all the rage. He still swears by it. The irony for everyone who hated .40 was that it was the only round you could still buy online throughout the great 2020 ammo famine. Edit: I'm surprised at the number of responses to this. To clarify, I'm neither a lover nor a hater of .40 S&W. I never fired it and I've never seen anything to show it's so much better or worse than 9mm to make a significant difference. All I can say is what my brother in law says. Another spin: He's always loved reloading so had piles of 5.56, 9mm (for his friends), 12 gauge, and .40 S&W in 2020. To him reloading is a pleasant meditative experience he'd do even if the government gave out ammo for free. So 4 years after 2020 he could probably supply a USMC combat division.
@hburn100 Said, no one. Deputy Sheriff for over 20 plus years. My Dept still carries the 40 cal in Glock dress. It's a great round. Tested and proven on the streets. Bean counters like the 9mm because of costs, bottom line. Rank n file still prefer the 40 cal.
I'm pretty sure Paul Harrell settled this question some years ago. The .40 S&W is, all other things being equal such as manufacturer and bullet construction, is superior based on meat target performance. Unless you don't like the .40. Then "you be the judge". That's why I rotate between 9, .40, and .357 Sig. I'm confident in all three and base my carry decision on other factors besides caliber alone. Example, the .357 Sig is an "outside" caliber. Because it's LOUD.
@@bobby9930 The meat target will give you a ballpark idea of how your gun/ammo will perform if you are ever attacked by something other than a block of jello. 🤔
@@kevingoebel170 No, actually it won't. It's just something entertaining, that looks cool for the gun magazine and internet crowd, that have no understanding of what reproducible testing means, and it's not random groceries... Many of that crowd still believe in the fictional books and gun magazine articles on "street performance" from the 1990's. Meanwhile, the financially driven, gunwriter fueled distrust of gelatin continues. Unfortunately for them and their boutique ammunition company interests, properly prepared porcine gelatin testing, through various common barriers, has been proven to correlate very well to field results for more than 30 years. Which is why we have so many great choices in self defense ammo today, from the major manufacturers who test to it. But continue to believe in fairy tales if you choose.
I've been in the firearms industry for almost 40 years now, and I have noticed that the first thing that 9mm buyers do is hunt for the hottest +P load they can find. You need to do a side by side test pitting the hottest 9mm vs 155 gr 40 cal range ammo. Even then I think the 40 will still have the power advantage.
This guy is literally looking at a bigger bullet with bigger energy dump with his two eyes balls and still don't believe true/facts science...... TH-cam brainwashing is a hell of a drug
Indeed. It's odd that the sheriff says they're all very similar. The 45 ACP gel shot is cut off at the bottom, and in spite of that it still dominates the others, quite noticeably.
@@bangsteellongrangeshooting3413 the wound cavity was (slightly) larger but penetrated less than some and a little more than others. Wasn’t cut off enough to see the results.
I have carried the 10mm , 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 9mm professionally in that order. 10mm is a totally different beast when loaded properly…. The load we used was basically a 40 S&W. I love each round. I have found that apples to apples the 40 performs better than 45 or 9. Same bullet equal (ish) barrel lengths. Both the 9 and the 45 were designed at military FMJ bullets. The 46 is often not moving fast enough to expand the hp. The 9 often has a smallish hp that gets clogged.The 40 was designed as a police round. The 40 recoil is sharper than either 45 or 9 and does give some shooters fits and can definitely cause a flinch. This debate will never end😂
Scientical the 40S&W hasnt much more recoil than 9mm but the 45 has much more. Watch the video "What caliber is harder to control - 9, 40, or 45?" Its very interesting , no waste of time.
"The optimum shoe size is size 10D; if you're wearing any other shoe size, you're doing it wrong." - This is what the caliber debate sounds like to people who understand that every shooter is different, just as every platform and application is different. Carry the caliber you will practice, practice, and practice some more with and use modern self-defense ammunition. If you're comfortable shooting a larger caliber, good for you, because you get to have that extra fraction of a percent of lethality. But I'd rather a shooter sacrifice that fraction if it means them shooting a caliber they'll actually become proficient with.
@TeddyBear-lb9ho If you're in a war zone, you're carrying a rifle as a main weapon. If you wake up at home, you grab a shotgun. If you're walking around 99.9% of your life, most people will be using a pistol. It's a nonsensical argument 99.9% of the time.
Likewise, I have several 40 caliber handguns and I think it is a solid round. That being said I also have 9mm , 45 and 357 mag handguns. For stopping power I'll still stick with one of my 357 revolvers.
The fbi said that with modern bullet technology, the 9mm is the way to go. Well, that same technology applies to the 40 cal. So , I will stick with the 40
The powers that be also tell us that your safer not to run from a Tornado but rather get out and lay in a ditch. I firmly believe the reason is because they don't wantnt people running and causing wrecks. I think the same is true with all this. 9mm with modern bullets don't seem to ever exit a body so over penetration isn't a concern so they just tell us it's just as effective. Rather than tell us the truth and let us decide. Just a theory of mine. After seeing that video of the deputy shooting the guy 12 times point blank I thought of that.
The only reason the FBI went from 9, to 10, down to 40, and finally back down to 9 again, was because their agents couldn't handle the recoil of the larger calibers, they publicly admitted that at every step. It really had nothing to do with "advancements in technology", because those same advancements are immediately applied to every other caliber on the market, negating any and all advantages for the 9 except for cartridge count. Instead of training their agents to have better recoil control and superior shot placement, they just capitulated for a measly 2 more rounds capacity per mag, something that could have been duplicated in larger calibers with extended baseplates.
@@thebluestig2654 Why don't you tell us where you imagine the FBI "publicly admitted that at every step". Saying the 9mm is easier to control and make hits with, is just a fact. I've been shooting for more than 45 years, including IPSC for quite a few years, and I shoot 9mm better too. And with current bullet technology, the differences in performance between 9 and .40 don't justify it's more recoil and lower capacity. Hits are what wins gunfights, not some tiny difference in performance.
My first handgun was a short 45. I was weened on recoil. I had that gun for about 7 years before selling it. Today I use 9mm and 357 as my main calibers. I'd like to have another 45 eventually, though. I still have plenty of 45acp ammo in the closet. I've just never been attracted to 40. I'd buy a 10mm before a 40 because I spend a lot of time poking around in the woods and 500lb black bears have been seen around here from time to time.
In terms of power and effectiveness when shooting a BG directly, I think it's so stupid to say 9mm is the same. All the advances that allowed 9mm to "catch up" to 45 was also applied to the 45. It didn't just stagnate for decades. The 45 ACP has on average about 30% more energy, bores a bigger hole, and its hollow points expand a lot more. This isn't negligible if anyone is being intellectually honest. The extra recoil and kick from the 45 isn't for no reason. The energy goes somewhere. Where the 9mm shines is capacity, low cost, and ease of shooting from the lesser recoil. 15-20 rounds of 9mm is pretty common. 45 is too fat to carry many rounds easily and it takes more practice to get good at controlling the recoil compared to the 9mm so the cost for 45 adds up. People who wank 9mm even go so far as to say it's as good as .357.....no it ain't. 357 has on average about 30% more energy than 45 ACP and improves even more when shot from a carbine whereas 9mm gets most of the juice out just coming from a handgun. 9mm came in mainly to have compatibility with our allies' ammo of choice and for more capacity, not because 45 ACP was lacking in performance.
I have found that shooting the larger rounds has improved my ability with the 9. I don't have anything against the 9, but I am a 70s kid who grew up in the '80s. Bigger is better...as long as you can hit what you are aiming at.
In the 1980s, I was in the first Academy class that went to 9 mm. The department had 38 caliber at that time. In the 90s we adopted the 40 caliber. Since I’ve retired, they’ve gone back to 9 mm because of the beta males and females. Sad.
The old adage is still true: variety is the spice of life! Having a variety of 'mouths to feed' gives one a sense of security. Plus, whenever one caliber ammo is on sale, it makes it easier to stock up.
The standards for peace officer firearms qualifications should be much higher than what they are! If a woman or man can’t handle a cartridge like a 40 or 45 they should look for another job. The departments shouldn’t accommodate incompetent people with watered down cartridges.
As the resident of a mag restriction state, we use the largest caliber that gets to 10 rounds per magazine. With artificial limitations on capacity, add power.
Thanks for the video. I appreciate your wisdom. What is your view on the both eyes open or one eye shut debate in shooting a handgun? I saw a recent video from retired master-chief navy seal Hershel Davis and he said, if it makes you shoot more accurately, then shoot with one eye shut and that is what I have always done.
The beginning of the video sounds like you were trying to show the 9mm wins the debate. Then, after shooting both pistols, and the 40S&W held a tighter group it changed to they're always good. I did find it funny you complained about the 9mm not shooting as well as you're used to shooting because it isn't as heavy. Almost like the 40S&W felt better in your hand. Yes, all duty calibers work. But, when calibers are discounted because smaller & new people can't shoot them as well, it doesn't mean the light calibers are better. It just means the government is trying to save money by only buying what the majority can handle, even if it isn't quite as good. But, yes, use the gun you shoot the best. Larger backstraps on the newer Glocks have helped me shoot my 9mm about the same as my 45ACP & 10mm Glocks.
40 was the absolutely LAST caliber pistol ammunition to disappear from the shelves in the big ammo drought a few years ago. All the better for me. 😊 BTW, the know it all pundits kept telling me that 40 was "dead" !! I just smiled and kept my Glock 27. 😮😅😂
The debate has been OVER FOR YEARS among the professionals. All the professional competitive shooters and high tier military/leo units are all using 9mm. It's not that 10mm, 40, or 45 are inherently hard to use. It's that 9mm does basically almost the same thing as those other cartridges and is more controllable. Allowing you to put more rounds on target. And not just on target, but in small vitals which is what you should be interested in hitting. Not to mention more capacity, lighter and smaller guns which are easier to carry around all day. One day a better cartridge will be developed (or has been already) and we'll have 9mm guys saying "if you can't control a 9mm... blah blah blah". I still own other bigger caliber guns for fun at the range, outdoor use, etc. But for professional use, a 9mm is hard to beat.
This debate will probably never be over. I have pistols chambered in 9mm, .40, and .380. I learned to shoot pistol with a lightweight .40, so a 9mm feels like no recoil at all. They'll generally all do the job if you hit what you're aiming at and use the right ammunition type for the situation. That said, I've seen dozens if not hundreds of ballistics charts and tests comparing 9mm and .40 S&W. A 155 or 165 grain .40 S&W hollow point (such as Gold Dot, HST, etc) at over 1100 FPS tends to do some particularly nasty things when compared to any 9mm ammo that I've seen. There are some hot .40 loads on the market which step into 10mm territory. Underwood's 155 grain XTP @ 1300 FPS is a good example. That has over 580 ft-lbs of energy. Properly-loaded .357 Sig is in the same ballpark. I think for most people 9mm makes the most sense. You get decent ballistics, good capacity, and low recoil. If you think 10mm is worth considering over 9mm, then a hot .40 has to be considered as well. Given the ammo shortages we experienced a few years ago, I think it's a good idea for people to own pistols chambered in more than one caliber. Maybe use 9mm as your primary cartridge and then .40 or 10mm as your secondary. I know .40 was easy to find and relatively cheap during the ammo shortages. Not so much for 9mm. It's pretty easy to convert a Glock 23 to 9mm, or a Sig P226/229 that's chambered in .40 or .357 Sig over to 9mm. Guns like that are good to have for the caliber flexibility.
Thank you for your insight! Unfortunately people get hung up on caliber as if it affects performance, when it boils down to the performer, as you so well stated. Thanks again for posting. 😊
Listen, I'm a 9mm guy, but to say that 45acp performs worse on a person than 9mm is simply not true. With your logic you should just carry a 22LR gun with you because caliber doesn't affect performance
@@waholoopesorry74 I carry 9mm too. Just agreeing with the point that ballistically there isn't a great difference in defensive rounds if you get proper ammo. Shot placement is what's more significant.
I just finished watching the video and couldn't wait to get to the comments! This is where I get to see grown adults call each other names, question their manhood, ridicule old people or young people, and mock each other's expertise. I'm a simple man (maybe even a simpleton) and I like all calibers. I have slowly acquired handguns in most of the calibers and I love them all but I'm not married to any of them. I recommend fighting over something a bit more important but if you can't help yourself at least I get to enjoy the drama!
I am never in favor of changing to accommodate the lowest common denominator. Especially when we are talking about a duty weapon and caliber. If training can't fix an officer's inability to handle a 40 S&W and place shots, then they are in the wrong place. Period. I mean, what else can't they manage? See my point? Yeah.
Unlike many GunTubers doing comparisons, I appreciate that you considered control of variables. As we know, the variation in speed and accuracy is less in experienced shooters than in rookie shooters. Nicely done sir.
Also: the first rule of a gunfight is not "have a gun". The first rule is "don't get hit". I have viewed maybe 150 gun shot individuals. Most expired from minor calibers. Maybe not immediately, but inevitably dead. And many lived long through torso hits from service calibers. The most devastating are any .30 caliber rifle. And of course, close range shotgun. Very messy, lot's to clean up.
Reasoning: For all interested. Do not expect performance of a caliber outside its strengths and designed purposes. There is a purpose for each caliber and make. Practice each and come to know what caliber agrees with "you and your purpose." Understanding (your purpose) is always first. Practice what caliber agrees with you, learn its greatest strengths and weaknesses, continually practicing its strengths to maintain "your trust" in the knowledge gained. Then use what you become strategically in all that may put you in harms way at any given moment forward, professionals and law abiding citizens. Thank you Sheriff for sharing here. Salute.
For complete historical accuracy, the FBI never adopted full power 10mm ammo for the S&W 1076's. The load they settled on and issued to agents was a 180gr bullet at ~1000fps... which is basically .40S&W ballistics. The stories of agents not being able to 'handle the recoil' was based on that 'lite' load, not full power 10mm. The solution, as you eluded to, of creating and going to a load (.40S&W) with the same ballistics but in a smaller and lighter gun, never really made all that much sense to me. The true felt recoil impulse is actually more in the lighter/smaller .40 cal guns with a 180gr bullet at 1000fps, than it is in a larger/heavier 10mm gun shooting a 180gr @ 1000. Some people may have been able to shoot the .40's better though, just because of the smaller grip - that they could get a better hold on, even though it didnt actually have less actual felt recoil than the FBI-issued 10mm ammo. Great video as always! Keep 'em coming!
Ummmm........ yes, they did. The 10mm was officially adopted by the FBI in 1989 with the S&W 1076 and a 180gr bullet at about 1250fps, which surpassed the 357Mag. The uncontrollability led to the FBI hand loading the same bullet down to about 950-1000fps (referred to as as the 10mm Lite or 10mm FBI Load). S&W and Winchester successfully duplicated those ballistics in the shorter 40S&W, which could go in a smaller gun, and that led to short service life of the 10mm and the 1076.
In a self defense concealed carry load the 9MM is the cats meow. In a police / military application with a full duty weapon the 10MM or .45 is far superior in stopping power, at distances and shooting into vehicles. All of which happen in greater frequency than self defense.
@captainmo3064 actually, not so much. Someday, I'm going to a video about shooting into and out of cars. You'll be surprised at how well handguns DO NOT do going thru car bodies. Handguns are weapons of convenience, not performance. They all perform dismally without shot placement into vital areas.
@@SheriffMattOllerI think a lot of non LE folks don’t understand, that the April 1986 Miami-Dade gun battle with Platt and Matix initiated the FBI seeking a better weapon/caliber. The 10mm was indeed their initial choice. Unfortunately, two FBI agents Jerry Dove and Ben Grogan lost their lives that day. That incident would be a good video for you make.
Thanks for the video, Sheriff Oller. I made the same conclusion. I carry 9mm. Shot placement matters more. I’m finding the same is true with .380, which is what my pocket pistol Ruger LCP Max is chambered for. So much debate about the 380 under-penetrating in the standard gel test, but I honestly doubt that it would matter enough to make a difference. The difference is that I’d carry that small pistol even when I could not carry my larger ones. Looking forward to an update on your new Springfield Armory, hope that it works out well for you. I would appreciate in the future a video on your path into law enforcement. I’ve been curious about a career with my county’s sheriff’s office, but I haven’t decided yet. Thanks again, be safe
Excellent points as I predicted. While I enjoy shooting many calibers, my EDC is carrying 9mm (Federal HST 147gr, standard pressure) for many reasons mentioned, including effectiveness, reliability & capacity. I train & practice primarily with 9mm.
I was in charge of bank robbery investigations and carried a 10mm with full power 175 gr silver tip ammo. My partner FBI carried his issue 10mm S&W with their issue ammo. I gave him some of the full power stuff. Today, i often carry a 10mm and with full power stuff very comfortable with the cartridge favoring the 1911 platform. I always felt larger diameter bullets hit harder than smaller bore guns. In 9mm, I favor the .38 Super and .357 SIG with good JHP ammo. (YEP 1911s in both of these) and of course always a fan of the .45ACP. We were once issued 9mm pistols ( Beretta) and went to the Glock 21 .45 as a general issue. We have not lost a gun fight since long story. Yes retired I do carry a 9mm too and a .40. Depends on my mood. I can't help it. I favor the big bore. Curious on your evaluation. I have considered that SA35.
I had both 9mm and 40 mm in Glock. They were good, but I noticed the recoil was a bit much, tried the S&W M&P’s and was amazed at least for me the recoil was less. So now I have them and sold the Glocks.
As a retired Law enforcement, i agree the best firearm is the one in your hand. I started my career with .38 special and ended with .40 in between we had 9mm and 357 sig. Of all of these i really liked my glock 19 it fit my hand perfectly and was comfortable to shoot. My go to conceal carry is a Glock 43x. I also agree that you should use the caliber you are most comfortable using.
Speaking for myself, at well over 70 yrs old , and with arthritic hands I don’t need the recoil of a .40 , plus I can pack a much smaller 9mm that weighs less with far more ammo . Not that I think I’d ever need it . At my age , the last thing I want is to be involved in a firefight.
I'm pushing 70 myself, with some arthritis starting up in my hands as well. I get how the .40 recoil might become hard on the hands, especially after a long shooting session, but then it would seem to make more sense to go to a HEAVIER gun chambered in 9mm, not a smaller gun, if recoil is an issue. This is why I usually practice with and carry my Beretta 92, rather than my Ruger LC9.
A lot of 45 studs from the past, like Ken Hackathorn, say the same thing. Their arthritis has them reaching for the 9. They aren't wimps, but they have new limitations.
The funny thing about that movie was that Harry makes it clear that shooting reduced loads makes him more accurate. So to some extent he liked the 44 special.
@@georgegravette1132 Yeah exactly , here recently I’ve taken to packin a 1911 in 9 mm . Or a Sig 365 with a 12 RD mag and 147 gr ammo . I still can’t shoot more than around 50 rounds on any given day , then I’m pretty much done for a week till some of the swelling goes down . Lol believe it or not , a 1911 in .45 with critical defense ammo isn’t half bad for recoil , but I can’t afford to shoot it more than once in a blue moon .
@@georgegravette1132 I would HIGHLY recommend you switch to something in 32acp. Like the Beretta Model 81 Cheetah. You're smart enough to understand that heavier gun and lighter round = better shooting experience. The Cheetah is still small and lightweight enough to carry, it'll be somewhere between your Ruger LC9 and Beretta 92 dimensionally speaking, but the recoil will be lower than either. If you're worried about the terminal ballistics of 32acp, don't. Someday in the future many years from now, people will realize that bigger calibers are a fad. In the end, most calibers work just fine, shot placement is all that really matters. 32acp was used in WW1 and WW2 to kill countless people, and all they used back then was FMJ.
I used to be all about this debate until wife and I applied for our CCW’s (16 plus year ago). Did the same test as you did with her and She decided, went out and purchased duplicate guns that She liked. Commonality of Arms and I have opposable thumbs, trained with what she likes and will carry. Enough said.
The REAL underdog caliber is .357 Sig. Used by both the Secret Service AND the Air Mashals for a while before they went to 9mm. There are still some police agencies that use .357 Sig
Why do you think the Secret Service and Air "Mashals" went to 9mm? Because they want to under arm themselves? Or because they probably caught on that 9mm is superior from a practical point of view?
@@Mandalore863 It's loud and has a lot of flash which probably had something to do with it, I doubt saving money was the reason they changed they have plenty of that lol
@@FatYokel I had a conversation in youtube comments with someone who was a LEO and his department carried 357 Sig.He wrote that is very loud but if they had to use it it was no problem. He doesnt knwo anyone with big hearing loss or having a blast trauma. But on the other hand I had read of some cases . But they all where with 357 Mag.
Ballistic gelatin is only an aporiximation of SOFT human body tissue. It is designed to achieve maximum expansion out of hollow point bullets, not to equate to a clothed human body. Put some denim layers in front of some wood or particle board to approximate clothing and ribs and try your gelatin tests again. You will see the .45 acp and the .40 S&W both significantly out perform the 9mm. Physics will not be denied. Heavier bullets (180 grain bullets moving at 950 - 1,000 fps) will penetrate barriers like clothing and bones better than lighter bullets (147 grain bullets moving at 1,100 - 1,200 fps). That said, most people shoot a 9mm more accurately than a .40 and shot placement is still king. Carry the largest caliber that you can shoot "effectively" rather than the one you shoot "the best" afterall, we would all shoot .22 lr "the best".
“Lighter” Your comparison fails to take into account sectional density. 9mm 147gr and .40 180 gr have near identical sectional densities and similar momentum and energy values based on your numbers. There’s no significant difference in this barrier performance scenario you’re talking about.
Sheriff Oller: With respect, when you refer to the .40 caliber cartridge, you are forgetting something that predates even your own service in law enforcement, and goes back to, specifically, a horrific incident which occurred in 1986. For those of us monitoring the law enforcement firearms issues at that time (including myself as I prepared to hopefully enter a career in the field that never actually happened), it was a landmark moment in the history of the overall debate. That moment was the infamous FBI "Miami Massacre", in which the 9mm, as well as the .38 Spl., when deployed by FBI personnel, FAILED TO STOP a heavily armed violent felon despite repeated, eventually fatal hits, and led to the deaths of multiple agents. Today, you are absolutely correct; the 9mm is in every way terminally equivalent to the .40 S&W, and tactically superior in terms of ammunition capacity and rate of accurate fire. 35 years ago, however, this was NOT true. The modern superiority of the 9mm is due ONLY to technical ammunition developments of the last 10 to 15 years, which have led to the use by law enforcement personnel of controlled expansion bullets that (usually!) actually perform as claimed. By around 1990, however, this technology was FAR from consistent, and any savvy gunfighter still opted for a larger caliber bullet at any time it was a legal option, based on the combat-proven assumption that Murphy would rear his ugly head and the damn things WOULDN'T expand! Had I been entering the law enforcement profession in the late 1980's, forget the .40, I'd have been praying to get on with a department that approved the carrying of the venerable .45 ACP! Otherwise, I'd undoubtedly have been one of those holdouts still opting to carry a .357 Magnum wheelgun. I really don't care much about capacity... I've always been far more concerned about getting one or two accurate hits that will GET THE JOB DONE! Oh, and if you can't learn to shoot well enough to learn how to tame the recoil of a .40 S&W... you really probably shouldn't be a cop! Period. And in your OWN shooting, you were actually MORE accurate with the .40!... because you actually didn't try to rush it! And in real life shootings, accuracy is going to save your ass a whole lot more dependably than getting rounds downrange.
Paul harrell did a great video going in depth on his veiws of that Miami shootout. A couple things I remember from it was a couple of the FBI agents had . 357 revolvers. Another was the guys with the 9mm, and all those rounds couldn't hit anything either. All that over analyzing was about one 9mm bullet that underpenetrated. Not about all the agents not hitting their targets. Getting a AR platform rifle out of your trunk should have been the answer.
You have got to be joking. You shot a well centered group with the 40, and threw three rounds high with the 9mm and you are claiming they are about the same???
You have to be the one joking. You're basing a small sample size as the end all be all truth of the matter? Do you know understand the concept of statistics? You're like 50 years old, you should understand logic by now. Here's a simpler way of looking at it, why do you think he was more accurate with the 40? Because 40cal is more accurate lol? And if so, why? LOLOLOL
@@UrbanDefenseSystems no, I am taking the results as what they are. The basic synopsis of his video was that people could not shoot the 40 as well as the nine. Ballistically, you would have to be ignorant to believe that, all things being equal, the two cartridges were equal.
One reason none of the ammo tested for the FBI outshines the other is because they are dumbed down to fit in the test block. The 40 S&W makes a bigger wound, the 45 ACP bigger still, than the 9mm Para with the same velocities and proportionally weighted bullets. Velocities are what "drive" the bullets through the target. Increased velocity with same weight of projectile means increased recoil, just as same velocity with heavier bullet means increased recoil. None of the "duty" ammo for 9mm, 40 S&W, nor 45ACP has intolerable recoil and any could be effective with the shots put in the right place - notice I said SHOTS, not shot, as handguns are seldom one shot stoppers (sometimes misses can even be stoppers but misses are never recommended) and nothing makes a baddie drop faster than gravity, so shoot what you can hit consistently and confidently with if you get a choice, but if you are issued a weapon and cannot qualify within the issuing entity's parameters, you should not be working for that entity.
My son is an officer here in northeast Missouri, his department mandate is the glock 22 gen 5 mos in 40. We both shoot alot an neither of us are fans of glocks, its the grip angle and low bore. Surprise lol we are 1911 and sig fans. I agree with you on bullet performance but alot of the armorers who unfortunately dont understand, refuse to let officers run anything but department issue. Even though when they qualify their scores are significantly higher with their personal firearms as backups. 99% are running 9mm. But what do I know, I run 10mm. Lol. Great video, thank you for all you do
My agency is one of the few left that allow personal owned pistols. We believe you should carry what you shoot the best. As a secondary note, people tend to take better care of things when they own them, so maintenance becomes (for the most part), a non issue. It's kind of a win-win. By policy, if you're involved in an OIS, the agency will go buy another gun to match yours that will be taken for lab testing within the 2 weeks off you're getting. Until then we immediately give you a Glock from the armory to take home.
Great video and much appreciated. Thank you for your service as well. I purchased a GEN4 Glock 22 from a Bakersfield, Ca. police officer some 6 or so years ago. The day I picked it up, I stopped in the National Forest on my way back to where I was visiting on the central coast, and function fired approximately 20 rounds through it. I fired fairly rapidly at a paper target. The groupings were acceptable for self-defense etc., but not a good representation of my ability. I was firing 180 grain FMJ rounds. I had fired a few .40 S&W handguns years prior, when I worked at a full-service gun shop. But I was function firing firearms which had been in for service/repair, for our gunsmith, and I was generally rapid firing at a stump etc. I lived in the boonies at the time. (I believe it was only Beretta model 96 handguns that I had fired). The next time I fired my G-22, I fired 180gr FMJ, and 165gr FMJ, and I was a significantly better shot with that firearm with the 165gr. My first Glock was a model 20 GEN2, (still have it), that I acquired in the gun shop the day of the Rodney King riots. I was carrying a Colt Pocketlite Mustang .380acp that day, which I had purchased recently, (usually had a 5904 S&W 9mm on me), and the owner got word that a gun shop maybe 100 miles south of us had an attempted robbery, and wanted me to have something more powerful, said to grab something we own out of the case and some ammo, test fire it, load it and some extra mags up, and strap it on. I had been eying the trade in Glock already, so I immediately removed it and did just that. Then at the end of the day, I filled out the DROS paperwork for it, lol. I fired that gun a lot and found it to be quite accurate and a joy to shoot. I was a .44 magnum guy for many years prior to that, and still. So, recoil is something which I was/am accustomed. That being said, that .40S&W is just a little squirrelly with 180gr rounds. I have several carry permits, including my California CCW, and that G-22 is one of 4 Glocks on my permit. We have to qualify with specific firearms in Ca. for the CCW, and I fire 165gr. rounds every time, and my groupings are as good as my 9mm and .45acp groupings. (I also have a 9mm barrel for the G-22, and I am generally slightly more accurate with that barrel in that firearm) When I watch caliber comparison videos involving the .40S&W, it seems that the rounds always have 180gr. projectiles. And I get it, but I wonder why the 165gr. is generally ignored. I actually prefer 124gr. 9mm rounds because 147gr. 9mm is kind of slow, and it seems that there is potentially a fine line between penetration due to velocity, and penetration due to the ballistic coefficient from the bullet weight. I would love to see someone test 165gr. .40S&W and 124gr. 9mm not only against one another as far as accuracy in timed rapid fire etc., but also against 180gr. and 147gr. respectively.
I carry both 45 and 10 mm. But I’m a large man with huge hands. Do I think everyone should carry one? Nope I feel each person should carry what they are comfortable with and can control ,,,,, not for me to say what that is.
The 40 came about as a result of the FBI adoption of the 10mm, yes (thank you, FBI). There was a bit more to the story, though. That adoption had everyone thinking about making a large frame, which is a major undertaking. Then, as you said, it became quickly evident that not everyone could handle the 10mm. So, the FBI came up with their performance parameters for a "10mm lite" cartridge. With the FBI's performance parameters available, S&W was able to quickly meet those parameters with the 40 S&W and fit it into their 59 frame. In other words, there was no need for a larger frame (great news for S&W). Thus, the 40 S&W was born. Since it met the FBI performance standards, a whole bunch of law enforcement agencies quickly adopted it. Personally, I really appreciated the whole scenario because it saved the 10mm from joining the obsolete file.
At last the truth about caliber from the real world of a serving Police Officer.. The old saying, 'If you miss your target caliber doesn't matter,' or as my firearms instructor once said about guns, 'They all can kill you; some just leave a bigger hole..'
Agreed! There is a difference, but not a MEANINGFUL difference. The debate should be about the number of rounds the clip holds and the cost of the ammo.
First, thanks for your service. Second, what “duty ammo?” Can we get some specifics please? Most times I see videos like this they’re using 147 +P 9mm then compare it to some weak sauce 40SW, 357Sig or 357Mag. On the other hand I’ve seen some who tested 9mm +P+ 124 grain against 357Sig 125 grain from a four inch barrel and they realize that there actually is a difference (200 fps or about 170 foot pounds). And the FBI report never stated that 9mm was better or ‘just as good as 40SW’ but that it was “adequate” for their needs. I personally don’t care what caliber a person carries however you’ll never convince me that 9mm is just as good as 40SW, 357Sig or 357Mag. Be glad you have those two extra rounds in your magazine. You’re gonna need them.
.357 Sig, 9MM, 10MM, .45 ACP for police or EDC like you say seem to have similar capabilities that I have seen. I'm 69 and grew up around WW1 & WW2 combat veterans and the last of the born in the 1800's Cowboys. They considered anything less than the .45 Long Colt pistol or .30-06 rifle to be substandard. My Dad was a friend of Elmer Keith and Mr. Keith's favorite guide Erv Malnrich so I basically grew up with and using the .44 Magnum single action for everything. My Dad, a Highland Scotsman came to the US after WW2 came from a line of Ghillies and Snipers. Classical shooting positions for rifle and pistol was absolutely mandatory. Safety was absolutely mandatory. So up until about 15 ago that was what I carried. No problems with accuracy and penetration noted. Was great if you don't mind Howitzer size and weight weapons. Today being considered old by bubble gum chewing latte swilling college grads I have started to carry a Sig P365 and I'm not sorry. Less weight and fairly accurate within combat ranges. Just found your Channel and I'm now subscribed. Keep doing what you're doing.
There’s never been a debate for me. I think 9mm, .40, and .45 are the big 3 and all are cool in their own ways. I carry 9mm because it’s cheap, so I can practice more. And 15 rounds of 9mm from a Glock 19 is nothing I’d like to be staring down. If I had disposable income these days, I’d own a USP .40 and maybe a 1911 in .45 ACP, but that ain’t in the cards yet 😂
Bullet tech today is way better than in the past so the 9mm of yesterday is not the same as the 9mm of today. This is not the time of the 1986 Miami shootout. So 9mm is very effective given more modern bullets. Yes folks can control 9mm better than .40Smith, .45ACP, 10mm larger major calibers. Folks will do better with lower recoiling minor calibers like .380ACP, 9mm, and .38Spl. and smaller size pistols like sub compacts. However if the pistol size gets too small like with micros then there is more recoil again. Personally like you I started with .45ACP so I am used to heavy recoil and most everything else standard pressure calibers is lighter recoiling by comparison. I won't use anything below .380ACP in the mouse calibers for defense unless that was all I had. Because by Ellifritz real world shooting data they fail to stop threats at much higher rates than standard calibers .380ACP and above. Yes by Ellifritz data and your gelatin photo, all standard pressure calibers stop threats at almost the same rate. I agree. Use the gun regardless of caliber you are most comfortable shooting and most accurate with. You are spot on with the caliber debate being over.👍👍👍👍
@fredbrandon1645 I was born in 72....... so - 1- clearly you're pre dating anything involving me. 2- I ain't "from there". Move along with the conspiracies. LOL
Great explanation and examples in this video. As always, the answer is Shot Placement. Just shoot and carry what you shoot the best. Bow hunters always say "It doesn't make any difference how fast it flys past!"
40 cal is just a little more recoil than a nine. Got a say the 10mm is the bees knees. I'm not a big guy but I shoot a 10 about as well as a 40 and 9mm. Never notice recoil until I get to 44 mag. or above.
Detailed report by Greg Ellifritz on actual shootings mirrors what you have presented. Caliber of the handgun involved in shoot outs mattered little or not at all. In the end it's what you feel comfortable with and can shoot the best. I might add also what your budget can afford. If you don't have the money to practice often enough with your 10mm maybe you should look at a good 9mm...
I have a Sig P365XL 9mm for concealed carry and a Mossberg 590A1 shotgun for home defense. I think that both are the best options for their respective purposes
I have a glock 22, 40 caliber, bought it from a retired officer, it holds 15 rounds, maybe 16 counting the one in the chamber?? So basically best of both worlds, plenty of power a plenty of ammo,
Today's police officers miss 80% of their shots in a gunfight. It's pitiful to say the least. Can't believe there is an issue with recoil on a 40 and 9mm. I carried a 357 Magnum and qualified expert all the time and hit what I shot at. This is the result of lesser men and women on the job who, back in the day, would not qualify for the job. The job now meets the low standards of society instead of the applicants meeting the requirements of the departments. Won't be surprised if the FBI comes out and state that they are going to the 22 or 25 caliber and say its a great man stopper.
The debate is over: departments choose 9mm over .40 because some of their officers don't handle the .40 very well and everyone, therefore, must be issued the less capable caliber. By that logic we should all abandon 12 gauge for 20 gauge.
An ER doctor who was in one of my classes carried a .45. I asked him why such a big caliber. He said, "Because we don't see many wounds in the ER from calibers that start with '4'. They usually go straight to the morgue. In the ER we get mostly .22's and 9mm's."
Actually with slugs, a pretty convincing argument could be made for a 20, or the original loads for the 12. I have some commercial slug load that hit the shoulder and roar worse than the 458.
Probably because 9mm is currently a much more widely carried variation of ammo than .45.
@@tacticalskiffs8134 I've got a Mossberg 500 in 20 gauge 22" loaded with #1 buckshot as one of my HD guns for the family. Damage is legit with it
@@tacticalskiffs8134 especially in 3inch magnum loads!!. And I have several guns. But as family perfer 20 but I live with 3 wife and 2 daughters
@@PistolPeterson859Come on now_ what the Doc said was the .40 and .45 were 'killer rounds'; the 9mm, 'monkey business'! Come on now!
The debate only ends when the internet dies
No bigger truth has ever been spoken
👏 👏
The debate started way before the internet was invented.
@@JJVPYOUStarted, yes.
This video is disingenuous at least and misleading at worst. The ballistics tables do not show a negligible difference in performance at the top end of these rounds. It’s quite clear that which rounds edge the others out. 357sig can put up numbers inside 10mm and 357 mag territory. 9mm is argued only in the sense of practicality. With a well placed shot it is enough to stop would be attackers. It’s cheaper than the rest to shoot and it’s easier to manage in similar sized pistols. It is not as powerful as any other round mentioned in this video. 9mm is a fine round. 45acp is a fine round. The fact is tho that 357sig is superior to 40sw and 40sw is superior to both 9mm and 45acp. The rest is bs. You literally shot the 40 better in this video and didn’t even mention it as it went against your prediction haha.
Paul Harrell has an excellent comparison of 9 and 40 without 15 minutes of resume fatigue. Barriers, accuracy, speed, numbers, actual comparison, etc. check it out.
Paul Harrell is the GOAT. No one does it like him.
This seems needlessly critical. Anecdotal evidence is interesting and valuable to some in the evolution of carry calibers. No one forced you to watch. Though if they did, please let me know and I'll come rescue you.
I've seen most of Paul's stuff. Solid dude, wealth of information.
Don't always agree with his take, but I do enjoy watching it.
Paul Harrell put this 9mm vs .40 S&W battle to rest a long time ago.
But, in my humble opinion, arguing about pistol caliber is like debating who is the best sex partner to procreate with. It's just silly.
The reason this argument rages on and on and on is that they all work.
Interesting analysis.
Used a 1911A1 in 45 Auto for 3 years in S.E. Asia with 230gr G.I. ball ammo with excellent results in actual close quarters combat. Eight years later, I was a peace officer carrying a S&W mod 28 357mag revolver. Was involved in three shootings. I walked away from them. As a patrol officer for 4 days a week, and armorer for the 5th day, I worked on the department weapons. Later, an additional assignment, I ran the officer involved shootings team. There,I investigated, studied, and reported to the chief of police on these shootings. And, of course, I was not approached by command when they decided to switch to autoloader pistols. The PD chose the Beretta 92F 9mm. 😒
Our rate of fire/effective hits rose from 1.3 rounds expended with the .357mag, to 4.8 rounds with the 9mm. I was not surprised.
So, looking back to the many single hits from the 1911A1 I used where highly motivated and professional NVA soldiers fell to the 45 Auto. And the ARVN troops I fought with using 9mm pistols firing multiple times in combat, I'm relatively confident in comparing these results with that in the PD's choice of the 9mm. In exchange of rounds in close combat with handguns, the 9mm is inferior to larger, more powerful rounds. This is solely based upon personal experience, and statistical analysis of shootings of police officers against armed criminals within the agency I was employed.
So do I now, long retired, have large caliber revolvers personality? Yes, several. And do I own any autoloader pistols? Yes, two. Both 1911A1 in 45 Auto. Any polymer 9mm's in my safe? Nope. Not a single one. I personality will only use what I know what is effective, and discard which is not.
Now all you younger shooters, who only punch paper and gelatin, with no combat experience, can begin the howls of declaring me a Fudd. Fine. Call me whatever you like. Won't phase me a bit. 😏
I'm just a target shooter and not overly good, I've got a Beretta 92F, a CZ preB , and a Ruger 1911. I'm more accurate with the 1911, than the other 2 despite the bigger recoil. Why? Because of the trigger pull, the 1911 is so much better imo.
@@johnod1955 You bet! The 1911's trigger design is pure genius! Back in the 80's and 90's, I operated a gunsmith business on the side. I was building 3 to 4 custom 1911's a month. I'd guarantee that they'd hand cycle a full mag of empties or no charge. I really believe that the 1911 design is as good as it gets.🙂
One tour in afghanistan for me, I'm 28 and I carry a .45 acp, it's a glock 30 so I'm sure you won't like that, but I wanted that powerful ball.
I switched from 9mm to 45acp last year and I have no regrets. I was actually surprised at the recoil impulse of the 45 - it isn't so much snappy as much as it pushes your gun back. I like it
Well... we aren't using ball ammo for self-defense. The 9mm velocity, ability for quick follow-ups, and capacity far outweigh any 45acp benefits in self-defense or combat period!
“The caliber debate is over.” This must surely refer to some other planet….
Or alternate universe. 😂
My department issued the Glock 23, .40 caliber, before my ‘97 retirement but I don’t recall anyone having trouble qualifying w/it that didn’t also have the same problem w/the issued thirty-eight revolver. I survived a 1974 gunfight w/my issued Colt Detective Spl 38. revolver and agree with carry what you shoot the best. Caliber wars are nonsense.
Truth. Agreed.
I wonder why do some departments not issue the full size for police use, like the full size 22 over the compact 23
You and I seem to watch the same videos ! LOL. I really enjoy reading your comments. I take the advice of a man who has been on a 2 way firing range very seriously. Thank you Sir for sharing your real world experiences - and thank you Sir for your service.
@@c-jam6392Our department wanted a gun for both duty & off duty carry and the medium size G23 seemed to fill that role nicely. That said the requirement to carry off-duty was dropped shortly before I retired in ‘97.
If .40 in a duty size pistol is too much recoil to tame..you need to reevaluate your life choices..
I just noticed the name. We have to be related. 😂
I agree. Carried the 40 caliber for most of my career. Retired a while ago. My department went back to 9 mm because the beta males and females couldn’t fire it.
In a full size pistol sure I agree with you but most people don't want to conceal a full size pistol, and in a compact or subcompact that recoil is gonna get way more stout. 9mm subcompacts have good capacity and the recoil is manageable, this is only from the perspective of an average citizen not in any professional capacity
@@frebnewman6403lmfao. You must be super manly with your 40! I must be godlike with my 45!
You must Not know .40 came into being because the FBI were trying to kill each other with 10mm over penetration!
Howdy Sheriff, I'm a retired Texas peace officer with 40 years in, a TCLEOSE (now TCOLE) licensee to teach law enforcement classes and law enforcement firearms. I have never worked for a department that issued firearms to the officers. Instead, each one (6 total) had a written policy which said each officer must supply their own duty weapon (handgun). Further, that weapon must be: 1) made by a high quality manufacturer, 2) at least a .38 spl caliber (no maximum specified at the time), 3) DA/SA revolver or an automatic. It was further explained that one should carry the most powerful caliber that one could reliably/consistently hit the target with. The choice was left to the officer because it was the officer's life on the line. I started off with a .357 S&W with a 6" bbl. I was "normal sized" back then (6' /220lbs.). I carried duty weapons, at one time or another, in each of the following calibers: .357, .45 Colt, 9mm, 40 cal., 10mm, and .45ACP. I eventually settled on 10mm for the last 15 or more years of my career. I sometimes carried a .45 1911 for my light work days, and a .40 cal when just "running to the store." I never would work for a department which had a policy which requited me to carry ONLY what the least capable shooter in the department could hit with. I had a Capt. once explain the need for standardization. "If you come up on a scene and the first officer there needs more ammo, you can hand him one of your magazines." Nope, nope, NOPE! It that officer fired all his ammo (three 15 round mags and one in the chamber for a total of 46 rounds) and didn't stop the fight, then I'll be dammed (litterally) if I allow him to waste my ammo, and endanger the public further with their poor shooting. Sorry for the wall of text, but I had a lot to say.
Only the rounds that hit matter.
I like your perspective. If someone needs more ammo then there is something horribly wrong
Yeah you're pretty smart I guess the military guys need to start carrying 30 rounds and no more !🙄🤡@waholoopesorry74
You obviously were never in the military, because if everybody in the military just thought me me me me me me, then everybody have a different caliber a different gun and their shit wouldn't work together. Way to be a team player!🙄
@@jerrydonquixote5927
The cops don't fight 50 vs. 50. Also, my house isn't the military.
You had a tighter group with the .40 over the 9mm.
Pretty clear to me that the 357 sig and 45 acp wound channels blow away the 9mm... The 40 SW looks like middle ground..
I agree. The gel test energy dump in the first 6" is very different. They might all stop at the same point, but if the caliber has more energy when it hits the target and stops at the same place, it has to transfer more energy in a smaller distance.
Ya surprisingly ya.
Check out the new age light 9mm rounds on gel like liberty civil defense and underwood extreme defense. Much more aggressive temp wound chan
@@jdm8798 They're so good that precisely 0 LEOs or anyone that matters adopted them.
@literallynobody1515 logical fallacy. It's cost prohibitive for departments to adopt over conventional hollow points. When you're ordering ammo in the millions of cartridges, you can see where the budget can get bloated. Personally I'm not a fan of the Civil defense loadings as I prefer to have more penetration with a projectile that's retained weight. The extreme defender, however, is my preferred choice in carry ammo.
My brother in law is a retired sheriff deputy whose service time was when .40 S&W years as all the rage. He still swears by it. The irony for everyone who hated .40 was that it was the only round you could still buy online throughout the great 2020 ammo famine.
Edit: I'm surprised at the number of responses to this. To clarify, I'm neither a lover nor a hater of .40 S&W. I never fired it and I've never seen anything to show it's so much better or worse than 9mm to make a significant difference. All I can say is what my brother in law says. Another spin: He's always loved reloading so had piles of 5.56, 9mm (for his friends), 12 gauge, and .40 S&W in 2020. To him reloading is a pleasant meditative experience he'd do even if the government gave out ammo for free. So 4 years after 2020 he could probably supply a USMC combat division.
Because no one wants that trash round
@hburn100 you're special aren't you
@hburn100 Said, no one. Deputy Sheriff for over 20 plus years. My Dept still carries the 40 cal in Glock dress. It's a great round. Tested and proven on the streets. Bean counters like the 9mm because of costs, bottom line. Rank n file still prefer the 40 cal.
@@hb21210 Usually people with little girls hands don't like to shoot the .40.
@hburn100 it's not trash,it just isn't the fad anymore! it's just as good as anything else.
As former law enforcement Thank you for ending this debate! Started carying
357 mag but now its a Glock 23 in .40
Why no G32?
I'm pretty sure Paul Harrell settled this question some years ago. The .40 S&W is, all other things being equal such as manufacturer and bullet construction, is superior based on meat target performance. Unless you don't like the .40. Then "you be the judge". That's why I rotate between 9, .40, and .357 Sig. I'm confident in all three and base my carry decision on other factors besides caliber alone. Example, the .357 Sig is an "outside" caliber. Because it's LOUD.
Yes!!!
357 sig with 115 gr are pretty obviously different in ballistics gel testing. Definitely don't need to worry about over pen. Those suckers explode.
The meat target is a joke. But all the bubba's eat it up. Random groceries are not a reproducible medium for testing.
@@bobby9930 The meat target will give you a ballpark idea of how your gun/ammo will perform if you are ever attacked by something other than a block of jello. 🤔
@@kevingoebel170 No, actually it won't. It's just something entertaining, that looks cool for the gun magazine and internet crowd, that have no understanding of what reproducible testing means, and it's not random groceries... Many of that crowd still believe in the fictional books and gun magazine articles on "street performance" from the 1990's. Meanwhile, the financially driven, gunwriter fueled distrust of gelatin continues. Unfortunately for them and their boutique ammunition company interests, properly prepared porcine gelatin testing, through various common barriers, has been proven to correlate very well to field results for more than 30 years. Which is why we have so many great choices in self defense ammo today, from the major manufacturers who test to it. But continue to believe in fairy tales if you choose.
I've been in the firearms industry for almost 40 years now, and I have noticed that the first thing that 9mm buyers do is hunt for the hottest +P load they can find. You need to do a side by side test pitting the hottest 9mm vs 155 gr 40 cal range ammo. Even then I think the 40 will still have the power advantage.
Some .40 is creeping on 600 ft lb.
40 and 357 sig are both ballistically superior to 9mm and 45.
This guy is literally looking at a bigger bullet with bigger energy dump with his two eyes balls and still don't believe true/facts science...... TH-cam brainwashing is a hell of a drug
@aboutmyfathersbusiness6907 Paul Harrell did a breakdown of 40 vs 9. I'm more inclined to side with him. 357 sig is what 9mm +P+ wants to be.
@@FoulPet yes sir! They sure do but never will be 357 sig
Funny because the pictures of the 45 on the ballistic gel look quite a bit bigger compared to the first 9mm.
The bottom 4 have a bigger wound cavity but the distance is about the same.
Indeed. It's odd that the sheriff says they're all very similar. The 45 ACP gel shot is cut off at the bottom, and in spite of that it still dominates the others, quite noticeably.
@@bangsteellongrangeshooting3413 the wound cavity was (slightly) larger but penetrated less than some and a little more than others. Wasn’t cut off enough to see the results.
I have carried the 10mm , 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 9mm professionally in that order. 10mm is a totally different beast when loaded properly…. The load we used was basically a 40 S&W. I love each round. I have found that apples to apples the 40 performs better than 45 or 9. Same bullet equal (ish) barrel lengths. Both the 9 and the 45 were designed at military FMJ bullets. The 46 is often not moving fast enough to expand the hp. The 9 often has a smallish hp that gets clogged.The 40 was designed as a police round. The 40 recoil is sharper than either 45 or 9 and does give some shooters fits and can definitely cause a flinch. This debate will never end😂
Scientical the 40S&W hasnt much more recoil than 9mm but the 45 has much more. Watch the video "What caliber is harder to control - 9, 40, or 45?" Its very interesting , no waste of time.
"The optimum shoe size is size 10D; if you're wearing any other shoe size, you're doing it wrong." - This is what the caliber debate sounds like to people who understand that every shooter is different, just as every platform and application is different. Carry the caliber you will practice, practice, and practice some more with and use modern self-defense ammunition. If you're comfortable shooting a larger caliber, good for you, because you get to have that extra fraction of a percent of lethality. But I'd rather a shooter sacrifice that fraction if it means them shooting a caliber they'll actually become proficient with.
Almost all pistol calibers suck, they exist to get you to your rifle.
Ridiculous comment parroted more times than it should be.
@FoulPet
Depends what the scenario is. If it's a warzone/gun battle then yeah, a rifle is what you need. Anything short of that, a pistol is plenty.
@TeddyBear-lb9ho If you're in a war zone, you're carrying a rifle as a main weapon. If you wake up at home, you grab a shotgun. If you're walking around 99.9% of your life, most people will be using a pistol. It's a nonsensical argument 99.9% of the time.
depends on the use brother and the cal
10mm and 357magnum have entered the chat
.40 cal was ALWAYS on the shelves even during ammo scares. I never ran low on .40.
Likewise, I have several 40 caliber handguns and I think it is a solid round. That being said I also have 9mm , 45 and 357 mag handguns. For stopping power I'll still stick with one of my 357 revolvers.
Same here.
The fbi said that with modern bullet technology, the 9mm is the way to go. Well, that same technology applies to the 40 cal. So , I will stick with the 40
The powers that be also tell us that your safer not to run from a Tornado but rather get out and lay in a ditch. I firmly believe the reason is because they don't wantnt people running and causing wrecks.
I think the same is true with all this. 9mm with modern bullets don't seem to ever exit a body so over penetration isn't a concern so they just tell us it's just as effective. Rather than tell us the truth and let us decide.
Just a theory of mine. After seeing that video of the deputy shooting the guy 12 times point blank I thought of that.
Tomatō, Tomató when it comes to hand gun... it is a tool to get you to your RIFLE!
The only reason the FBI went from 9, to 10, down to 40, and finally back down to 9 again, was because their agents couldn't handle the recoil of the larger calibers, they publicly admitted that at every step. It really had nothing to do with "advancements in technology", because those same advancements are immediately applied to every other caliber on the market, negating any and all advantages for the 9 except for cartridge count.
Instead of training their agents to have better recoil control and superior shot placement, they just capitulated for a measly 2 more rounds capacity per mag, something that could have been duplicated in larger calibers with extended baseplates.
10mm
@@thebluestig2654 Why don't you tell us where you imagine the FBI "publicly admitted that at every step". Saying the 9mm is easier to control and make hits with, is just a fact. I've been shooting for more than 45 years, including IPSC for quite a few years, and I shoot 9mm better too. And with current bullet technology, the differences in performance between 9 and .40 don't justify it's more recoil and lower capacity. Hits are what wins gunfights, not some tiny difference in performance.
Yep the debate is over, 45 ACP wins again...
AMEN!!
My first handgun was a short 45. I was weened on recoil. I had that gun for about 7 years before selling it. Today I use 9mm and 357 as my main calibers. I'd like to have another 45 eventually, though. I still have plenty of 45acp ammo in the closet. I've just never been attracted to 40. I'd buy a 10mm before a 40 because I spend a lot of time poking around in the woods and 500lb black bears have been seen around here from time to time.
In terms of power and effectiveness when shooting a BG directly, I think it's so stupid to say 9mm is the same. All the advances that allowed 9mm to "catch up" to 45 was also applied to the 45. It didn't just stagnate for decades. The 45 ACP has on average about 30% more energy, bores a bigger hole, and its hollow points expand a lot more. This isn't negligible if anyone is being intellectually honest. The extra recoil and kick from the 45 isn't for no reason. The energy goes somewhere.
Where the 9mm shines is capacity, low cost, and ease of shooting from the lesser recoil. 15-20 rounds of 9mm is pretty common. 45 is too fat to carry many rounds easily and it takes more practice to get good at controlling the recoil compared to the 9mm so the cost for 45 adds up.
People who wank 9mm even go so far as to say it's as good as .357.....no it ain't. 357 has on average about 30% more energy than 45 ACP and improves even more when shot from a carbine whereas 9mm gets most of the juice out just coming from a handgun.
9mm came in mainly to have compatibility with our allies' ammo of choice and for more capacity, not because 45 ACP was lacking in performance.
I have found that shooting the larger rounds has improved my ability with the 9. I don't have anything against the 9, but I am a 70s kid who grew up in the '80s. Bigger is better...as long as you can hit what you are aiming at.
In the 1980s, I was in the first Academy class that went to 9 mm. The department had 38 caliber at that time. In the 90s we adopted the 40 caliber. Since I’ve retired, they’ve gone back to 9 mm because of the beta males and females. Sad.
The old adage is still true: variety is the spice of life! Having a variety of 'mouths to feed' gives one a sense of security. Plus, whenever one caliber ammo is on sale, it makes it easier to stock up.
The standards for peace officer firearms qualifications should be much higher than what they are! If a woman or man can’t handle a cartridge like a 40 or 45 they should look for another job. The departments shouldn’t accommodate incompetent people with watered down cartridges.
DEI hires.
And gun stores always have piles of .40 ammo . It just doesn't sell as quick
That's cuz real men don't like it.
@@jerrydonquixote5927 as a small carry handgun .40 is quite decent more stopping power than a 9mm without a lot more recoil
@@user-wt9ge6wy8v saying stopping power in a handgun caliber debate invalidates your opinion...
As the resident of a mag restriction state, we use the largest caliber that gets to 10 rounds per magazine. With artificial limitations on capacity, add power.
Thanks for the video. I appreciate your wisdom. What is your view on the both eyes open or one eye shut debate in shooting a handgun? I saw a recent video from retired master-chief navy seal Hershel Davis and he said, if it makes you shoot more accurately, then shoot with one eye shut and that is what I have always done.
It ended for me when last 2 shortages 9mm was nowhere to be found...went back to my 40SWs never looked back...Been a Forty fan since early 90s!!❤
What is nice about 9mm is the cost. Cheaper ammo means more practice at the range, That should mean more accuracy.
The beginning of the video sounds like you were trying to show the 9mm wins the debate. Then, after shooting both pistols, and the 40S&W held a tighter group it changed to they're always good. I did find it funny you complained about the 9mm not shooting as well as you're used to shooting because it isn't as heavy. Almost like the 40S&W felt better in your hand.
Yes, all duty calibers work. But, when calibers are discounted because smaller & new people can't shoot them as well, it doesn't mean the light calibers are better. It just means the government is trying to save money by only buying what the majority can handle, even if it isn't quite as good.
But, yes, use the gun you shoot the best. Larger backstraps on the newer Glocks have helped me shoot my 9mm about the same as my 45ACP & 10mm Glocks.
It’s simple the .40 is the same as the 9 except in men’s.
I think you’ve mistaken that for an actual 10mm? .40 is the Barbie version of the real thing.
😂😂😂😂❤❤❤❤❤😅😅😅😅❤❤❤
Both comments
Best comment!!
The 10mm is 3xl
Thank you for your service!
45 auto with 230grain does the job.a lot of testing went into the 45 ,
40 was the absolutely LAST caliber pistol ammunition to disappear from the shelves in the big ammo drought a few years ago. All the better for me. 😊 BTW, the know it all pundits kept telling me that 40 was "dead" !! I just smiled and kept my Glock 27. 😮😅😂
It will never die to many of us own them!!
The debate has been OVER FOR YEARS among the professionals. All the professional competitive shooters and high tier military/leo units are all using 9mm. It's not that 10mm, 40, or 45 are inherently hard to use. It's that 9mm does basically almost the same thing as those other cartridges and is more controllable. Allowing you to put more rounds on target. And not just on target, but in small vitals which is what you should be interested in hitting. Not to mention more capacity, lighter and smaller guns which are easier to carry around all day. One day a better cartridge will be developed (or has been already) and we'll have 9mm guys saying "if you can't control a 9mm... blah blah blah". I still own other bigger caliber guns for fun at the range, outdoor use, etc. But for professional use, a 9mm is hard to beat.
This debate will probably never be over. I have pistols chambered in 9mm, .40, and .380. I learned to shoot pistol with a lightweight .40, so a 9mm feels like no recoil at all. They'll generally all do the job if you hit what you're aiming at and use the right ammunition type for the situation.
That said, I've seen dozens if not hundreds of ballistics charts and tests comparing 9mm and .40 S&W. A 155 or 165 grain .40 S&W hollow point (such as Gold Dot, HST, etc) at over 1100 FPS tends to do some particularly nasty things when compared to any 9mm ammo that I've seen. There are some hot .40 loads on the market which step into 10mm territory. Underwood's 155 grain XTP @ 1300 FPS is a good example. That has over 580 ft-lbs of energy. Properly-loaded .357 Sig is in the same ballpark.
I think for most people 9mm makes the most sense. You get decent ballistics, good capacity, and low recoil. If you think 10mm is worth considering over 9mm, then a hot .40 has to be considered as well.
Given the ammo shortages we experienced a few years ago, I think it's a good idea for people to own pistols chambered in more than one caliber. Maybe use 9mm as your primary cartridge and then .40 or 10mm as your secondary. I know .40 was easy to find and relatively cheap during the ammo shortages. Not so much for 9mm. It's pretty easy to convert a Glock 23 to 9mm, or a Sig P226/229 that's chambered in .40 or .357 Sig over to 9mm. Guns like that are good to have for the caliber flexibility.
Why people use sissy ammo get Underwood 10mm with 750 ft lbs energy
Thank you for your insight! Unfortunately people get hung up on caliber as if it affects performance, when it boils down to the performer, as you so well stated. Thanks again for posting. 😊
I guess you carry 32 acp
@@FoulPet 25 ACP. Not trying to break my wrist. I guess you carry .44 mag?
@@Mr.Jeff_356 Caliber doesn't matter. 22lr is king
Listen, I'm a 9mm guy, but to say that 45acp performs worse on a person than 9mm is simply not true. With your logic you should just carry a 22LR gun with you because caliber doesn't affect performance
@@waholoopesorry74 I carry 9mm too. Just agreeing with the point that ballistically there isn't a great difference in defensive rounds if you get proper ammo. Shot placement is what's more significant.
Just found your channel and I find your vids very informative. Great stuff!
I just finished watching the video and couldn't wait to get to the comments! This is where I get to see grown adults call each other names, question their manhood, ridicule old people or young people, and mock each other's expertise. I'm a simple man (maybe even a simpleton) and I like all calibers. I have slowly acquired handguns in most of the calibers and I love them all but I'm not married to any of them. I recommend fighting over something a bit more important but if you can't help yourself at least I get to enjoy the drama!
I am never in favor of changing to accommodate the lowest common denominator. Especially when we are talking about a duty weapon and caliber. If training can't fix an officer's inability to handle a 40 S&W and place shots, then they are in the wrong place. Period. I mean, what else can't they manage? See my point? Yeah.
Unlike many GunTubers doing comparisons, I appreciate that you considered control of variables. As we know, the variation in speed and accuracy is less in experienced shooters than in rookie shooters. Nicely done sir.
Also: the first rule of a gunfight is not "have a gun". The first rule is "don't get hit". I have viewed maybe 150 gun shot individuals. Most expired from minor calibers. Maybe not immediately, but inevitably dead. And many lived long through torso hits from service calibers. The most devastating are any .30 caliber rifle. And of course, close range shotgun. Very messy, lot's to clean up.
Reasoning: For all interested. Do not expect performance of a caliber outside its strengths and designed purposes. There is a purpose for each caliber and make. Practice each and come to know what caliber agrees with "you and your purpose." Understanding (your purpose) is always first. Practice what caliber agrees with you, learn its greatest strengths and weaknesses, continually practicing its strengths to maintain "your trust" in the knowledge gained. Then use what you become strategically in all that may put you in harms way at any given moment forward, professionals and law abiding citizens. Thank you Sheriff for sharing here. Salute.
9mm pistol is far more likely to be sold in hot pink, you failed to point that out
For complete historical accuracy, the FBI never adopted full power 10mm ammo for the S&W 1076's. The load they settled on and issued to agents was a 180gr bullet at ~1000fps... which is basically .40S&W ballistics. The stories of agents not being able to 'handle the recoil' was based on that 'lite' load, not full power 10mm. The solution, as you eluded to, of creating and going to a load (.40S&W) with the same ballistics but in a smaller and lighter gun, never really made all that much sense to me. The true felt recoil impulse is actually more in the lighter/smaller .40 cal guns with a 180gr bullet at 1000fps, than it is in a larger/heavier 10mm gun shooting a 180gr @ 1000. Some people may have been able to shoot the .40's better though, just because of the smaller grip - that they could get a better hold on, even though it didnt actually have less actual felt recoil than the FBI-issued 10mm ammo. Great video as always! Keep 'em coming!
Ummmm........ yes, they did.
The 10mm was officially adopted by the FBI in 1989 with the S&W 1076 and a 180gr bullet at about 1250fps, which surpassed the 357Mag.
The uncontrollability led to the FBI hand loading the same bullet down to about 950-1000fps (referred to as as the 10mm Lite or 10mm FBI Load).
S&W and Winchester successfully duplicated those ballistics in the shorter 40S&W, which could go in a smaller gun, and that led to short service life of the 10mm and the 1076.
In a self defense concealed carry load the 9MM is the cats meow.
In a police / military application with a full duty weapon the 10MM or .45 is far superior in stopping power, at distances and shooting into vehicles. All of which happen in greater frequency than self defense.
@captainmo3064 actually, not so much.
Someday, I'm going to a video about shooting into and out of cars.
You'll be surprised at how well handguns DO NOT do going thru car bodies.
Handguns are weapons of convenience, not performance. They all perform dismally without shot placement into vital areas.
@@SheriffMattOllerI think a lot of non LE folks don’t understand, that the April 1986 Miami-Dade gun battle with Platt and Matix initiated the FBI seeking a better weapon/caliber. The 10mm was indeed their initial choice. Unfortunately, two FBI agents Jerry Dove and Ben Grogan lost their lives that day. That incident would be a good video for you make.
Lots of different .40 rounds beat .45 in youtube ballistic tests, .40 beats a lot of the standard 9 loads that aren't plus p. from tests I see.
Thanks for the video, Sheriff Oller. I made the same conclusion. I carry 9mm. Shot placement matters more. I’m finding the same is true with .380, which is what my pocket pistol Ruger LCP Max is chambered for. So much debate about the 380 under-penetrating in the standard gel test, but I honestly doubt that it would matter enough to make a difference. The difference is that I’d carry that small pistol even when I could not carry my larger ones. Looking forward to an update on your new Springfield Armory, hope that it works out well for you.
I would appreciate in the future a video on your path into law enforcement. I’ve been curious about a career with my county’s sheriff’s office, but I haven’t decided yet. Thanks again, be safe
Excellent points as I predicted. While I enjoy shooting many calibers, my EDC is carrying 9mm (Federal HST 147gr, standard pressure) for many reasons mentioned, including effectiveness, reliability & capacity. I train & practice primarily with 9mm.
New subscriber here. I really enjoy your videos and the way you explain things. Thank you and thank you for your service.
I was in charge of bank robbery investigations and carried a 10mm with full power 175 gr silver tip ammo. My partner FBI carried his issue 10mm S&W with their issue ammo. I gave him some of the full power stuff. Today, i often carry a 10mm and with full power stuff very comfortable with the cartridge favoring the 1911 platform. I always felt larger diameter bullets hit harder than smaller bore guns. In 9mm, I favor the .38 Super and .357 SIG with good JHP ammo. (YEP 1911s in both of these) and of course always a fan of the .45ACP. We were once issued 9mm pistols ( Beretta) and went to the Glock 21 .45 as a general issue. We have not lost a gun fight since long story. Yes retired I do carry a 9mm too and a .40. Depends on my mood. I can't help it. I favor the big bore. Curious on your evaluation. I have considered that SA35.
Get the SA35 you won’t regret it. Accuracy is amazing. Definitely feels like the high power only better.
Sounds like sissy ammo get some underwood 10mm with 758 ft lbs energy
I had both 9mm and 40 mm in Glock. They were good, but I noticed the recoil was a bit much, tried the S&W M&P’s and was amazed at least for me the recoil was less. So now I have them and sold the Glocks.
You must have needed a turret for that 40mm.!
That fact that you said 40mm made me not surprised that you gave up Glocks for M&Ps.
@@waholoopesorry74 Maybe he meant his 40mm granade launcher that he put on the rail?😂 But the Glock in 45 Magnum really kicks hard.
@@Gieszkanne Yeah I have the 45 Mag Glock and its recoil knocks me off my feet every time
I prefer a 10 mm. That way I don't have to share ammo at the range with all of the 9 and 40 guys.
As a retired Law enforcement, i agree the best firearm is the one in your hand. I started my career with .38 special and ended with .40 in between we had 9mm and 357 sig. Of all of these i really liked my glock 19 it fit my hand perfectly and was comfortable to shoot. My go to conceal carry is a Glock 43x. I also agree that you should use the caliber you are most comfortable using.
i remember when smith & wesson tried to get law enforcement to use 41 magnum. i like 357 sig & 357 magnum. i do have a 500 magnum.
Speaking for myself, at well over 70 yrs old , and with arthritic hands I don’t need the recoil of a .40 , plus I can pack a much smaller 9mm that weighs less with far more ammo . Not that I think I’d ever need it . At my age , the last thing I want is to be involved in a firefight.
I'm pushing 70 myself, with some arthritis starting up in my hands as well. I get how the .40 recoil might become hard on the hands, especially after a long shooting session, but then it would seem to make more sense to go to a HEAVIER gun chambered in 9mm, not a smaller gun, if recoil is an issue. This is why I usually practice with and carry my Beretta 92, rather than my Ruger LC9.
A lot of 45 studs from the past, like Ken Hackathorn, say the same thing. Their arthritis has them reaching for the 9. They aren't wimps, but they have new limitations.
The funny thing about that movie was that Harry makes it clear that shooting reduced loads makes him more accurate. So to some extent he liked the 44 special.
@@georgegravette1132
Yeah exactly , here recently I’ve taken to packin a 1911 in 9 mm . Or a Sig 365 with a 12 RD mag and 147 gr ammo . I still can’t shoot more than around 50 rounds on any given day , then I’m pretty much done for a week till some of the swelling goes down .
Lol believe it or not , a 1911 in .45 with critical defense ammo isn’t half bad for recoil , but I can’t afford to shoot it more than once in a blue moon .
@@georgegravette1132 I would HIGHLY recommend you switch to something in 32acp. Like the Beretta Model 81 Cheetah. You're smart enough to understand that heavier gun and lighter round = better shooting experience. The Cheetah is still small and lightweight enough to carry, it'll be somewhere between your Ruger LC9 and Beretta 92 dimensionally speaking, but the recoil will be lower than either. If you're worried about the terminal ballistics of 32acp, don't. Someday in the future many years from now, people will realize that bigger calibers are a fad. In the end, most calibers work just fine, shot placement is all that really matters. 32acp was used in WW1 and WW2 to kill countless people, and all they used back then was FMJ.
I used to be all about this debate until wife and I applied for our CCW’s (16 plus year ago). Did the same test as you did with her and She decided, went out and purchased duplicate guns that She liked. Commonality of Arms and I have opposable thumbs, trained with what she likes and will carry. Enough said.
The REAL underdog caliber is .357 Sig. Used by both the Secret Service AND the Air Mashals for a while before they went to 9mm. There are still some police agencies that use .357 Sig
Why do you think the Secret Service and Air "Mashals" went to 9mm? Because they want to under arm themselves? Or because they probably caught on that 9mm is superior from a practical point of view?
@@UrbanDefenseSystems less costly per round, more capacity, less felt recoil. Sure I can see that. BUT! 357 Sig is still a criminally underrated round
@@Mandalore863 It's loud and has a lot of flash which probably had something to do with it, I doubt saving money was the reason they changed they have plenty of that lol
@@FatYokel I had a conversation in youtube comments with someone who was a LEO and his department carried 357 Sig.He wrote that is very loud but if they had to use it it was no problem. He doesnt knwo anyone with big hearing loss or having a blast trauma. But on the other hand I had read of some cases . But they all where with 357 Mag.
@@Gieszkanne I've never used it myself, I remember now I heard those words from Paul Harrell back in the day, respect to him.
That’s the exact same reason I switched to the 10mm it’s the most power you can get in a semi auto pistol, and it doesn’t break the bank.
Went to 10mm for my home defense gun JXP10mm with SIG Hollow points will do the Job for my Home Protection!😊
Ballistic gelatin is only an aporiximation of SOFT human body tissue. It is designed to achieve maximum expansion out of hollow point bullets, not to equate to a clothed human body. Put some denim layers in front of some wood or particle board to approximate clothing and ribs and try your gelatin tests again. You will see the .45 acp and the .40 S&W both significantly out perform the 9mm. Physics will not be denied. Heavier bullets (180 grain bullets moving at 950 - 1,000 fps) will penetrate barriers like clothing and bones better than lighter bullets (147 grain bullets moving at 1,100 - 1,200 fps). That said, most people shoot a 9mm more accurately than a .40 and shot placement is still king.
Carry the largest caliber that you can shoot "effectively" rather than the one you shoot "the best" afterall, we would all shoot .22 lr "the best".
“Lighter” Your comparison fails to take into account sectional density. 9mm 147gr and .40 180 gr have near identical sectional densities and similar momentum and energy values based on your numbers. There’s no significant difference in this barrier performance scenario you’re talking about.
Great video! Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for the advice sir.
Sheriff Oller:
With respect, when you refer to the .40 caliber cartridge, you are forgetting something that predates even your own service in law enforcement, and goes back to, specifically, a horrific incident which occurred in 1986. For those of us monitoring the law enforcement firearms issues at that time (including myself as I prepared to hopefully enter a career in the field that never actually happened), it was a landmark moment in the history of the overall debate. That moment was the infamous FBI "Miami Massacre", in which the 9mm, as well as the .38 Spl., when deployed by FBI personnel, FAILED TO STOP a heavily armed violent felon despite repeated, eventually fatal hits, and led to the deaths of multiple agents.
Today, you are absolutely correct; the 9mm is in every way terminally equivalent to the .40 S&W, and tactically superior in terms of ammunition capacity and rate of accurate fire. 35 years ago, however, this was NOT true.
The modern superiority of the 9mm is due ONLY to technical ammunition developments of the last 10 to 15 years, which have led to the use by law enforcement personnel of controlled expansion bullets that (usually!) actually perform as claimed. By around 1990, however, this technology was FAR from consistent, and any savvy gunfighter still opted for a larger caliber bullet at any time it was a legal option, based on the combat-proven assumption that Murphy would rear his ugly head and the damn things WOULDN'T expand!
Had I been entering the law enforcement profession in the late 1980's, forget the .40, I'd have been praying to get on with a department that approved the carrying of the venerable .45 ACP! Otherwise, I'd undoubtedly have been one of those holdouts still opting to carry a .357 Magnum wheelgun. I really don't care much about capacity... I've always been far more concerned about getting one or two accurate hits that will GET THE JOB DONE!
Oh, and if you can't learn to shoot well enough to learn how to tame the recoil of a .40 S&W... you really probably shouldn't be a cop! Period. And in your OWN shooting, you were actually MORE accurate with the .40!... because you actually didn't try to rush it! And in real life shootings, accuracy is going to save your ass a whole lot more dependably than getting rounds downrange.
Paul harrell did a great video going in depth on his veiws of that Miami shootout. A couple things I remember from it was a couple of the FBI agents had . 357 revolvers. Another was the guys with the 9mm, and all those rounds couldn't hit anything either. All that over analyzing was about one 9mm bullet that underpenetrated. Not about all the agents not hitting their targets. Getting a AR platform rifle out of your trunk should have been the answer.
You have got to be joking. You shot a well centered group with the 40, and threw three rounds high with the 9mm and you are claiming they are about the same???
Ballistically, yes......... LOL.......
You have to be the one joking. You're basing a small sample size as the end all be all truth of the matter? Do you know understand the concept of statistics? You're like 50 years old, you should understand logic by now. Here's a simpler way of looking at it, why do you think he was more accurate with the 40? Because 40cal is more accurate lol? And if so, why? LOLOLOL
@@UrbanDefenseSystems no, I am taking the results as what they are. The basic synopsis of his video was that people could not shoot the 40 as well as the nine.
Ballistically, you would have to be ignorant to believe that, all things being equal, the two cartridges were equal.
@@everythingdefensivecarry1108 The results of one sample size. Look up the word SAMPLE SIZE.
@@UrbanDefenseSystems there is no need to be rude. Apparently we are talking about two different things from different perspectives.
One reason none of the ammo tested for the FBI outshines the other is because they are dumbed down to fit in the test block. The 40 S&W makes a bigger wound, the 45 ACP bigger still, than the 9mm Para with the same velocities and proportionally weighted bullets. Velocities are what "drive" the bullets through the target. Increased velocity with same weight of projectile means increased recoil, just as same velocity with heavier bullet means increased recoil. None of the "duty" ammo for 9mm, 40 S&W, nor 45ACP has intolerable recoil and any could be effective with the shots put in the right place - notice I said SHOTS, not shot, as handguns are seldom one shot stoppers (sometimes misses can even be stoppers but misses are never recommended) and nothing makes a baddie drop faster than gravity, so shoot what you can hit consistently and confidently with if you get a choice, but if you are issued a weapon and cannot qualify within the issuing entity's parameters, you should not be working for that entity.
My son is an officer here in northeast Missouri, his department mandate is the glock 22 gen 5 mos in 40. We both shoot alot an neither of us are fans of glocks, its the grip angle and low bore. Surprise lol we are 1911 and sig fans. I agree with you on bullet performance but alot of the armorers who unfortunately dont understand, refuse to let officers run anything but department issue. Even though when they qualify their scores are significantly higher with their personal firearms as backups. 99% are running 9mm.
But what do I know, I run 10mm. Lol.
Great video, thank you for all you do
My agency is one of the few left that allow personal owned pistols. We believe you should carry what you shoot the best.
As a secondary note, people tend to take better care of things when they own them, so maintenance becomes (for the most part), a non issue. It's kind of a win-win.
By policy, if you're involved in an OIS, the agency will go buy another gun to match yours that will be taken for lab testing within the 2 weeks off you're getting. Until then we immediately give you a Glock from the armory to take home.
Great video and much appreciated. Thank you for your service as well.
I purchased a GEN4 Glock 22 from a Bakersfield, Ca. police officer some 6 or so years ago. The day I picked it up, I stopped in the National Forest on my way back to where I was visiting on the central coast, and function fired approximately 20 rounds through it. I fired fairly rapidly at a paper target. The groupings were acceptable for self-defense etc., but not a good representation of my ability. I was firing 180 grain FMJ rounds.
I had fired a few .40 S&W handguns years prior, when I worked at a full-service gun shop. But I was function firing firearms which had been in for service/repair, for our gunsmith, and I was generally rapid firing at a stump etc. I lived in the boonies at the time. (I believe it was only Beretta model 96 handguns that I had fired).
The next time I fired my G-22, I fired 180gr FMJ, and 165gr FMJ, and I was a significantly better shot with that firearm with the 165gr.
My first Glock was a model 20 GEN2, (still have it), that I acquired in the gun shop the day of the Rodney King riots. I was carrying a Colt Pocketlite Mustang .380acp that day, which I had purchased recently, (usually had a 5904 S&W 9mm on me), and the owner got word that a gun shop maybe 100 miles south of us had an attempted robbery, and wanted me to have something more powerful, said to grab something we own out of the case and some ammo, test fire it, load it and some extra mags up, and strap it on. I had been eying the trade in Glock already, so I immediately removed it and did just that. Then at the end of the day, I filled out the DROS paperwork for it, lol. I fired that gun a lot and found it to be quite accurate and a joy to shoot. I was a .44 magnum guy for many years prior to that, and still. So, recoil is something which I was/am accustomed.
That being said, that .40S&W is just a little squirrelly with 180gr rounds.
I have several carry permits, including my California CCW, and that G-22 is one of 4 Glocks on my permit. We have to qualify with specific firearms in Ca. for the CCW, and I fire 165gr. rounds every time, and my groupings are as good as my 9mm and .45acp groupings. (I also have a 9mm barrel for the G-22, and I am generally slightly more accurate with that barrel in that firearm)
When I watch caliber comparison videos involving the .40S&W, it seems that the rounds always have 180gr. projectiles. And I get it, but I wonder why the 165gr. is generally ignored.
I actually prefer 124gr. 9mm rounds because 147gr. 9mm is kind of slow, and it seems that there is potentially a fine line between penetration due to velocity, and penetration due to the ballistic coefficient from the bullet weight.
I would love to see someone test 165gr. .40S&W and 124gr. 9mm not only against one another as far as accuracy in timed rapid fire etc., but also against 180gr. and 147gr. respectively.
It appears the debate is as active as ever...
Keep up the great videos!!
New to your channel and appreciate your input on the “caliber debate”. Looking forward to more great content.
I carry both 45 and 10 mm. But I’m a large man with huge hands. Do I think everyone should carry one? Nope I feel each person should carry what they are comfortable with and can control ,,,,, not for me to say what that is.
Shot placement always matters
Nope
I can't even notice the difference in recoil between my 9 and 40.
That’s what Elmer Kieth said shoot the biggest gun you can be accurate with .
The 40 came about as a result of the FBI adoption of the 10mm, yes (thank you, FBI). There was a bit more to the story, though. That adoption had everyone thinking about making a large frame, which is a major undertaking. Then, as you said, it became quickly evident that not everyone could handle the 10mm. So, the FBI came up with their performance parameters for a "10mm lite" cartridge. With the FBI's performance parameters available, S&W was able to quickly meet those parameters with the 40 S&W and fit it into their 59 frame. In other words, there was no need for a larger frame (great news for S&W). Thus, the 40 S&W was born. Since it met the FBI performance standards, a whole bunch of law enforcement agencies quickly adopted it.
Personally, I really appreciated the whole scenario because it saved the 10mm from joining the obsolete file.
At last the truth about caliber from the real world of a serving Police Officer.. The old saying, 'If you miss your target caliber doesn't matter,' or as my firearms instructor once said about guns, 'They all can kill you; some just leave a bigger hole..'
Great advice, loved this video
Agreed! There is a difference, but not a MEANINGFUL difference. The debate should be about the number of rounds the clip holds and the cost of the ammo.
Train with what ever, if you shit your pants at the time of truth it ain't going to matter
First, thanks for your service. Second, what “duty ammo?” Can we get some specifics please? Most times I see videos like this they’re using 147 +P 9mm then compare it to some weak sauce 40SW, 357Sig or 357Mag. On the other hand I’ve seen some who tested 9mm +P+ 124 grain against 357Sig 125 grain from a four inch barrel and they realize that there actually is a difference (200 fps or about 170 foot pounds). And the FBI report never stated that 9mm was better or ‘just as good as 40SW’ but that it was “adequate” for their needs. I personally don’t care what caliber a person carries however you’ll never convince me that 9mm is just as good as 40SW, 357Sig or 357Mag. Be glad you have those two extra rounds in your magazine. You’re gonna need them.
There is no replacement for displacement.
“You’ll never convince me” so it’s a religion for you.
.357 Sig, 9MM, 10MM, .45 ACP for police or EDC like you say seem to have similar capabilities that I have seen. I'm 69 and grew up around WW1 & WW2 combat veterans and the last of the born in the 1800's Cowboys. They considered anything less than the .45 Long Colt pistol or .30-06 rifle to be substandard. My Dad was a friend of Elmer Keith and Mr. Keith's favorite guide Erv Malnrich so I basically grew up with and using the .44 Magnum single action for everything. My Dad, a Highland Scotsman came to the US after WW2 came from a line of Ghillies and Snipers. Classical shooting positions for rifle and pistol was absolutely mandatory. Safety was absolutely mandatory. So up until about 15 ago that was what I carried. No problems with accuracy and penetration noted. Was great if you don't mind Howitzer size and weight weapons. Today being considered old by bubble gum chewing latte swilling college grads I have started to carry a Sig P365 and I'm not sorry. Less weight and fairly accurate within combat ranges.
Just found your Channel and I'm now subscribed. Keep doing what you're doing.
There’s never been a debate for me. I think 9mm, .40, and .45 are the big 3 and all are cool in their own ways. I carry 9mm because it’s cheap, so I can practice more. And 15 rounds of 9mm from a Glock 19 is nothing I’d like to be staring down. If I had disposable income these days, I’d own a USP .40 and maybe a 1911 in .45 ACP, but that ain’t in the cards yet 😂
Bullet tech today is way better than in the past so the 9mm of yesterday is not the same as the 9mm of today. This is not the time of the 1986 Miami shootout. So 9mm is very effective given more modern bullets. Yes folks can control 9mm better than .40Smith, .45ACP, 10mm larger major calibers. Folks will do better with lower recoiling minor calibers like .380ACP, 9mm, and .38Spl. and smaller size pistols like sub compacts. However if the pistol size gets too small like with micros then there is more recoil again. Personally like you I started with .45ACP so I am used to heavy recoil and most everything else standard pressure calibers is lighter recoiling by comparison. I won't use anything below .380ACP in the mouse calibers for defense unless that was all I had. Because by Ellifritz real world shooting data they fail to stop threats at much higher rates than standard calibers .380ACP and above. Yes by Ellifritz data and your gelatin photo, all standard pressure calibers stop threats at almost the same rate. I agree. Use the gun regardless of caliber you are most comfortable shooting and most accurate with. You are spot on with the caliber debate being over.👍👍👍👍
Excellent comment!
I used both in my career, and both work. Good video Sheriff.
Same. I never really noticed any difference in recoil, and never saw anyone have trouble with either one.
Thanks for this. I always appreciate and prefer common sense vs the keyboard egos.
All the duty calibers mostly used 9mm, 40 sw,357 sig, 45acp are all in the 90%+ for stopping threats.
You are a great spokesman for Audrain County. Thanks for the video Sheriff.
@fredbrandon1645 Audrain County, Missouri...Look for Mexico, Missouri it's right in the center
@fredbrandon1645 There's only 1 Audrain County in the US.........
@fredbrandon1645 there's always people who think there are "conspiracies" abound........
My life, my history, and my office is an open book.
@fredbrandon1645 I was born in 72....... so -
1- clearly you're pre dating anything involving me.
2- I ain't "from there".
Move along with the conspiracies. LOL
No replacement for shot placement…both rounds are adequate for task
I carry Underwood 10mm 115 defender that goes 1,740 fps at 740 ft lb energy and goes thru level 3a vest I tested it
that was interesting.... and enjoyed it very much. Thank you!
The reason to have pistols in many different calibers should be multi-faceted . Only one reason for me. Its called "having fun".
Wealth of knowledge from a man of wealth of knowledge
Great explanation and examples in this video. As always, the answer is Shot Placement. Just shoot and carry what you shoot the best.
Bow hunters always say "It doesn't make any difference how fast it flys past!"
40 cal is just a little more recoil than a nine. Got a say the 10mm is the bees knees. I'm not a big guy but I shoot a 10 about as well as a 40 and 9mm. Never notice recoil until I get to 44 mag. or above.
Agree my 10mm kicks no more then my 45acp!!😊
I carry a 3 inch .45 and the recoil is nothing to handle. Maybe the problem is the weak men not the gun or the caliber.
Detailed report by Greg Ellifritz on actual shootings mirrors what you have presented. Caliber of the handgun involved in shoot outs mattered little or not at all. In the end it's what you feel comfortable with and can shoot the best. I might add also what your budget can afford. If you don't have the money to practice often enough with your 10mm maybe you should look at a good 9mm...
I have a Sig P365XL 9mm for concealed carry and a Mossberg 590A1 shotgun for home defense. I think that both are the best options for their respective purposes
For your purposes.
I have a glock 22, 40 caliber, bought it from a retired officer, it holds 15 rounds, maybe 16 counting the one in the chamber?? So basically best of both worlds, plenty of power a plenty of ammo,
It's like splitting hairs over a little more power versus a little more capacity. It's too bad that .357 Sig isn't used as much.
Today's police officers miss 80% of their shots in a gunfight. It's pitiful to say the least. Can't believe there is an issue with recoil on a 40 and 9mm. I carried a 357 Magnum and qualified expert all the time and hit what I shot at. This is the result of lesser men and women on the job who, back in the day, would not qualify for the job. The job now meets the low standards of society instead of the applicants meeting the requirements of the departments. Won't be surprised if the FBI comes out and state that they are going to the 22 or 25 caliber and say its a great man stopper.
I’m from Arkansas and love your videos!
Thank you sir.
40 S&W=38-40 Auto.