Pilots Fight DEADLY Mistake On Routine Flight!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ค. 2024
- The pilots on Air Midwest Flight 5481 fought desperately to control the aircraft but they tragically lost and 21 lives were lost on this routine flight.
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Yes, I know I said Greensboro instead of Greenville. I misspoke. I live in Charlotte and am well aware of the difference between the two. I didn’t realize this would be one of the most talked about parts of the video. 🤷♂️ Thanks for watching even though I make mistakes sometimes.
As pilots, we are always right, even when we are wrong. 😜
We listen to every word!
Nah, no problem. I wish that was the extent of my mistakes. The results would be the same regardless of the airport.
I also live in CLT, used to drive past back side of the airport to get to work off of Billy Graham and remember well seeing the smoke from this. Always just thought it was overweight and unbalanced, never knew about the maintenance issues and the way outdated weight charts…. great informative videos!
They’re just haters, some people really get off on pointing out/correcting other people’s mistakes - I would ignore. Cheers from Spartanburg, hope you had a great Thanksgiving!
Gotta love how the FAA didn't bother to revise weight calculations since the 30s. Have you seen the majority of Americans? 175 pounds average is an absolute joke.
Barnum and Bailey circus “fat lady”was 325 pounds, I saw at least 3 people coming into gas station this morning over that
A lotta weight is in the aft section too.
@@donchristie420 I am surprised only 3
@@donchristie420No you didn't, liar.
@@avalanche3084 dude, the place sells donuts😳
As a non-current pilot (I haven’t flown in 30 years), I still find your videos fascinating. They are always clear and crisp, and tell the stories in a compelling way. You are an excellent communicator. Keep up the good work. Thanks.
Thank you very much. I love getting comments like this!
I'm a passenger and it's scary to think the Main safety authority didn't revoke the airlines ability to continue operating without due diligence
What was the reason ?
Envelopes full of cash ?
Surely not .
I flew the 1900D for Air Midwest (both seats) and knew Katie very well. The plane always had an aft CG when fully loaded, but was never uncontrollable. When I was on it from 1999-2002, we used “summer” and “winter” weights. It was a great plane to fly and had lots of power.
Thanks for sharing and I'm sorry for your loss. This was a terribly tragic event.
I remember a news blurb about the average pax weight being bumped up. Now, I know why.
I'd be nice to see regulations written in ink by proactive actions, rather than seeing them written in blood.
Where was your domicile?
Sir, can you recall what the passenger weights used were for the summer and winter?
@@jyellowhammer think fall/winter weights was 185 and spring/summer weight was 160...or there abouts.
This is one of those tragedies where the pilots were conforming to all the right procedures at the time, but factors outside of their control let them down. Very sad.
I do not agree with you. If the pilot claims that he has all the final responsibilities then he should shoulder it. The first mistake of the pilot was to use the "average weight" of a passenger and not the "real weight", and that is very foolish in a small aircraft.
Then there are other higher sensitivities a good pilot should feel for before he takes things for granted. Since the pilot did not know the exact location of the centre of gravity, then he would not know the RATE OF CHANGE AT WHICH IT WASW GOING TO PITCH UP. Now final pitching angle is two integrals AFTER the pilot applies his stick input, and that means a relatively long delay. If a pilot does not know the CG location , he should not apply the " third rate of change of the final pitching angle as liberal and as freely as if he knew the aircraft, for he does not .
Aa soon as a pilot is at flying speed, then, applying the stick decide THE RATE OF CHANGE of the nose and that early space time function, at rotation, THE PILOT WOULD KNOW WHERE THE CG is, setting the personality of the aircraft, At that early moment, the pilot should have eased the stick forward, and not let the stick motion decide the high rate of change HE INPUTED to be sequentially integrated , from, stick movement integrated to, acceleration of pitch, then, rate of change of pitch, and then the final integral to achieve the final pitch. There was ample delay till the final pitch angle was gained, and that was too late,
The pilot should have noticed the sensitivity of the stick application, and those were bells to ease on that stick, It was the lack of sensitivity of the pilot to filter our the information that was so clearly presented . With a tricycle undercarriage, if the main wheels are relatively back, then the nose will be heavy, and the pilot would not know of the CG related to the Cl, but at flying speed as soon as the pilot applies the stick to rotate................. there and then, bang, he got all the information of the early important state of the aircraft............and the pilot should react there and then, and not miss the first integral of his stick motion. A pilot should take a course in mathematics and state control system to be able to recognise how the aircraft whispers and talks to him due to the higher rate of changes that launch themselves before any control system "accelerates", then gains "velocity" and then gains "location of final position" which in this case was " final pitch angle", The pilot was asleep to what was happening before the pitch started to accelerate, and that is when the pilot, or co- pilot should have reacted, and not delay two integrals where the pitch gained too high an angle . Those " stabilons", and ." other extensions" at the tail of that aircraft should have been shining lights and ringing bells of the pitching behaviour ( higher rates of changes) of that long tailed aircraft. The pilot behaved as a young naïve fighter pilot who had an aircraft crossing obliquely in front of him and tried to hit the target by shooting at the enemy, while the enemy was in his cross hairs. Many young pilots died because they did not know about that what state they applied now, needs three or two integrals to the final reaction, and addressing a mistake by noting the final location after a delayed integrals is just too late and that sort of timed feedback, it will cause oscillation anyway. Please read about PID control system and even one which has acceleration feedback and not just Integral, position and derivative states. Many pilots are not sensitive enough to the initiation rate of a function and that is what normally kills a pilot. .
What are you smoking?@@carmelpule8493
@@carmelpule8493 Mr Microsoft Armchair Pilot, you trolls don't put out rubbish, always Putting out about a thousand words of crap, trying to look like you know, what your babbling about. Mr Microsoft Arm Chair Pilot, the fault was down to bad maintenance of the plane. 🥴🤪🤡💯😂😂
@carmelpule8493 they'd just completed 6 successful flights on it .
How on earth could they have known this one would be the final one
The crappy maintenance crew basically killed the 21 people!
I worked for a major airline for 30yrs, we always used 200lb for each passenger weight.
Americans are way over weight...They don't do anything physical anymore...
Everyone should have to weigh in with the numbers shown to all with a 2' tall led display and weights over 200 accompanied with tuba music.
@@jasonbender2459 Now thats effin funny!!
Weight and Balance: Extreme heat can affect weight and balance calculations
I used to work for Mesaba Airlines back in the early 2000 and there were many instances when our Saab 340 where so over weight that the nose gear could barely steer the aircraft because it was so tail heavy but because they still used the old averages it was "on paper" with in CG limits. Scary times.
I Can only imagine how close we came to another event like this one. Frankly it’s horrifying
If there weren’t any criminal charges there should have been or at least lawsuits. Pure negligence by the airline AND the FAA. Disgusting and tragic.
The inspector should have been charged with criminal negligence.
Those numbers would've had me worried. Using averages for passenger and bag weights should be fine to get you into the ballpark. But when those ballpark figures tell you that you're at 99.76% capacity, it should be a warning sign that it's time to use the actual weights instead.
The chart at 9:45 should include an orange area within the SAFE area representing weights that should be confirmed with actual measurement. A margin of some reasonable amount, say 5% or so.
And like what, make every passenger get onto a scale before boarding the plane and calculate their total weight? But only on rare occasions , when the plane is almost full, so you never know if it takes two or four hours to board the plane and depart...I'm sure that wouldn't be at all inconvenient for boarding or flight planning. And what is you find up with a total that is 101% of maximum weight, you choose a passenger at random and say "yeah sorry, you can't board, fuck you"?
@@justforever96yes, to everything you just said, if in doubt weigh them and if you're overloaded you offload pax or baggage to get yourself within safe limits. If you don't want to weigh them then err on the side of caution and offload some baggage till the next flight.
Are you seriously suggesting that it's better to conduct the flight knowing you're right on the limits of what the Aircraft can safely handle?!
@@justforever96"make every passenger (...) is almost full"
Preferably on any and all flights.
Every passenger has to stand on the top step of stairs or the lip of the jetway, for a bigger plane. They could be weighed at that point without other passengers having to see the weights. Only really necessary for full flights.
I was thinking along those lines myself. I would have been nervous about being so close to the upper weight limit. Also, any pilots reading this-pay attention if the ramper is concerned about luggage weight. We sling them a lot and get a pretty good feel for the weight of such things.
Excellent video! Very interesting. The FAA raising average weight to 195 lbs was probably a good idea back in 2003, but they better review that again now. Most of the people we see in public are well over 200 lbs. We see lots of people that are at least 250 lbs and many that are beyond 300. Average height is going up and the average belly is getting massive. I hope the FAA updates their average weights before another accident like this happens again
Especially on small planes you shouldn't work with averages at all... I hope they use scales.
@@oooBASTIooo Exactly! Given the small number of PAX and the large number of aircraft movement, there is a much higher chance for these to significantly deviate from the calculated averages ... what if you happen to have a large family with lots of heavy baggage aboard?
I’m a student pilot, and your analyses have been quite insightful to me. Thank you for your continued work 🙏🙏
Great to hear!
watching this guy as a SP is just expanding my awareness its awesome
Me too. I been a SIM fan for years and now have the means to do my PPL. It's been my dream to fly since I was playing SIM games ages about 10.
What I learnt is you absolutely must respect the sky, must respect the danger and take it very seriously. It's not just your life on the line, but those in your plane and those on the ground. I notice so many crashes seem to be where pilots are arrogant and don't respect what they're doing. I will always do what I can to plan everything. Sure, we all make mistakes but I'm sure it will never be because of arrogance or my disrespect of the sky.
So, when the inspector told the two mechanics how to adjust the the elevator cables and then left, surely it was still his responsibility to check the elevator function after the adjustment, right? Even if it wasn't his responsibility, surely someone in the stinking hangar would have to check the elevator functions after an adjustment was made? I can't believe what went on back then, and probably don't want to know what goes on today in those "maintenance" hangars. SMH
Part of the problem is that you can't see the limited range of motion of the elevator when you are visually inspecting it from the ground (at least that's what the NTSB said)
Bingo, that's what I was imagining. I have never worked aircraft maintenance, but, I have worked for a large tier one aerospace supplier for 37 years and I figured there must be a gauge or some other way to verify the elevator travels after an adjustment. Even just some marks on the fuselage for a quick visual check? There has to be something they can check on the ground and not just hope it's right! @@markbushong4826
you'd think someone has to sign off on the work. That's normally how tech orders are handled.
but who finally signs off? They should be the final inspectors and assume responsibility.@@markbushong4826
I flew 1900's back then too. I'll bet there were more accidents waiting to happen then we'll ever know.
I work in maintenance and I take balance and weight very seriously when it comes to installing and or removing modifications, components, equipment, ecc. This stuff is no joke! Keep up the great work with your channel :D
Thanks for sharing!
I hope that every aircraft maintenance person has the same work ethic as you!👍🇨🇦
I work in maintenance as a contractor. There are times when some AME's or A&P's stray pretty far from the AMM . A few times I've found out that the operator did a COC and it was approved.
The manufacturers publications are the Bible till an operator has them amended to suit.
@@duncandmcgrath6290 Would you mind explaining the Acronyms? I'm an aviation enthusiast, but you still need to dumb down some of the lingo for me. I'd love to know the point of your comment. Thank you
I'm glad you take your maintenance seriously. It is literally a matter of life or death.
Excellent analysis and commentary as always. I learn so much from you. Tragically, 21 killed in this mishap is a reminder that one has to be so careful with everything.
Only two bad things can happen to a pilot. You go for your last flight, and you know it. You go for your last flight, and you don't know it. Rest in peace.
Whether you live, you live for the Lord. Whether you die, it is for the Lord. Whether you live or die, it is for the Lord. 💀☠😇
I went for my last flight and I knew it was the last flight. Parked at the gate, set the brake, walked off and never went back. Kicked out of the cockpit because of a birthday.
@@buckmurdock2500That is a very unfortunate rule that takes some the best pilots out of action. I believe Sully was very close to that age that when he saved all those people.
You have become my favorite post accident analyst. You treat every incident with respect and show restraint in criticism even in the most egregious cases you've reviewed. Maybe one day you could do a review of Pinnacles Flight 3701 from 2004, would love to hear your thoughts on it.
One of the things contributing was the weight of the plane, people on it and their baggage and the fuel. I used to drive relatively large trucks and some had gear on them that showed GVM (gross vehicle mass) on the dash so the driver knew how heavy the loaded rig is. Is it possible to build something like this into the landing gear so the pilots have accurate weight rather than a result of a calculation? If it's not too impractical has it been done? I imagine this could also give accurate center of gravity.
This is the best thing about this I have heard. I write software, and I am sure the software guys would be paranoid about offering something like this for aircraft. However, Maybe we could pioneer something like this built into the landing gear. If there is any question as to it's accruracy, it could be labled as expermimental, and used only for gathering data in it's begining stages. And then, once officaly implemented, it could intialy weigh the plane with know parameters, like fuel and flight crew weight, to verify its readings are accurate. If the readings are in acceptable margin of error, it could be trusted to give actual weight and ballance. And last but not least, we could start testing today, in the RC genre, where the stakes are not as high.
@@auroraRealms to be honest, i'd want to manually calculate it every time, but i feel like i could at least rely on such a system to let me know when there's an imbalance in the weight.
i'm no flyboy, but i was a cavalry scout. land navigation was one of our high-priority skills. doing the land nav test at fort knox, we did two runs. one manual, one with GPS. in truth, i did two manual runs, because even after calibration, my GPS unit was a good 500 meters off.
that is when i learned the lesson of never to blindly trust technology when lives are on the line.
now, i will not argue that GPS tech has come a long way since 2003, there's still a nonzero chance the device is bugging out, or is being fed wrong info by an enemy satellite, or any one of a host of problems that could cause a complex machine to misbehave. therefore, i will always manually calculate when lives are on the line.
@@rakninjaapples and oranges.
@@CaptainCraigKWMRZ both are fruit, though, and fruit can rot, or otherwise not be perfectly ripe.
i stand by my words, when lives are on the line, i dont blindly trust tech, i do the calculation. much better to do 5 minutes or less of math, than have someone debriefing my end later on.
What I took from it is that we need more gifted mechanics who don't skip anything and take pride in going the extra mile for safety.
The airlines are instead continuing to cut costs by underpaying and outsourcing.
Good luck. Those mechanics were making $7-8/hr. while J.O. raked in the $$$ and lived a life of luxury.
@@buckmurdock2500Not to mention they probably worked long days and were pressured to get their work done asap.
@@tristonb1105 and they would of still liked to party when they could as well
I don’t get it. I’m a ramper, I don’t get paid much, yet I somehow manage to have a sense of integrity-especially when my actions could lead to disaster if done incorrectly.
Being in the Navy and certifying aircraft SFF, weight and balance is extremely important! More importantly, the rigging that wasn't inspected after the maint was performed! Such a tragedy! Condolences to the families!
I picked a 400# 6 foot 6 guy up doing Lyft , I could feel my new Corolla steering weird on the freeway! Weight makes a big difference !
Absolutely, even on the ground in a car. You see I usually drive alone with minimal baggage. Usually just my handbag. But on occasion I drive my parents to the airport to save them the taxi fare and hassle. And believe me, I absolutely do feel the difference two additional adults plus two hefty suitcases and carry on bags makes to handling the car.
It affects everything from how much accelerator power to use, how much braking power and even how the car turns. I most definitely feel the engine working much harder when driving uphill with everything aboard. It’s totally safe though, it never takes long for the driver to adjust to the new handling. It’s just noticeable.
I can only imagine how much more it would affect a pilot flying a small airplane.
Had a similar issue back in the '90's going from FAY to RDU in a Jetstream 3200. My FO was flying a full airplane but just before rotation speed the airplane started rotating on its own. By the time we lifted off he has pushing the yoke forward with both hands to maintain pitch. Fortunately we had no control issues. After landing I had the bags weighed and it was determined that the bags weighed a lot more than what the paperwork said and our CG was well aft. It seems that standard weights don't apply when carrying a bunch of military folks with gear.
What a frightening experience! Thanks for sharing. Fortunately you were able to handle it, but it definitely shows how dangerous an aft CG out of limits can be.
Gosh, that really puts into perspective how much the pilots (and pax) rely on everyone involved with getting a flight ready for takeoff to do their jobs properly. A good reminder even for us lowly rampers.
Hold on, an FAA inspector advised the mechanics to skip steps?
that is horrifying, and the FAA should be held accountable.
Company inspector, not an FAA employee.
I still work in CLT and an in area by that hangar, a plaque exist in a small memorial, in memory of this crash and the people lost. Terrible tragedy indeed.
I was flying from Minneapolis to Rhinelander WI on what most would call a puddle-jumper. We had boarded & were seated when someone came on carrying one of several heavy boxes that turned out to be coins headed for a casino. They asked the pilots what the plane’s weight limit was. One pilot turned to the other & asked if he knew. He replied that he didn’t know, but felt sure the coins wouldn’t be a problem. That made me a bit uncomfortable.
They proceeded to place the boxes under seats throughout the plane, asking some passengers to change seats to properly distribute the weight. The flight was fine, but that was the first I’d heard about the importance of weight & weight distribution.
I’ve since seen a couple of videos about crashes caused by weight issues…one of which was a cargo plane where those loading the cargo had failed to strap down a heavy piece of equipment that ended up sliding during the flight & caused the plane to crash. Very tragic.
What an absolute tragedy! It is too bad that some reviews and changes based on them are not conducted unless or until something like this happens. Again, an excellent analysis Hoover.
As a certified mechanic and pilot I appreciate this video. To the best of my knowledge it is very accurate with regards to the factual information presented.
On an unrelated note, 5052 aluminum is not used in aircraft construction, 2024 yes 7075 yes and sometime 6061 if it needs to be welded. They use 5052 in aluminum boats lol. Okay maybe they use 5052 for non-structural applications interior trim but certainly nothing requiring any strength.
I scrolled till the 5 series aluminum got mentioned lol . I'm an S guy and the inaccuracies bug me sometimes.
@@duncandmcgrath6290 thanks for the comment and it's good we have a forum to chime in. This guy reviewed the galloping ghost crash in 2011 and got it almost completely wrong when there was plenty of information out there to identify what actually caused the crash. But again we get to chime in and at least try to correct the record keep up the good work and thanks again.
Great channel. Concise and factual debriefs. I like that I don't have to sit through 38 minutes of of bad banjo music and lawsuit updates just to get 60 seconds of safety information.
This one hit home for me. I was an AA flight attendant based in Boston, and took this flight home to GSP quite often. These planes are great, and I probably had these guys at the helm at some point. So sad..... Thanks for your great channel.
This one hits home for me. I flew the 1900D for a commuter in the northeast. Great video.
Its truly shocking that stuff like this can still happen. We have been learning from mistakes for over 100 years!
well, it was 2003, >21 yrs ago.
@@buckmurdock2500 yes and we have been flying for 100 years duh.
Hi Hoover, love your channel and as a young pilot, I’ve learned so much, and thanks so much for all you do.
Really sad, but the lessons learned have surely saved life's since. Thank you.
In the 1970s & 80s, I worked for the Department of Defense. We were an elite group of mechanics who worked on military fighter aircraft. I saw a lot of things done on fighter aircraft which defies logic and the what the airframe manufacturer recommended. Many of the fighters which came through our program, almost everyone of them had the metering screws on the fuel pumps tweeked to easily push past 100%. A number of the engines would have bent blades. One particular thing was the ACLUs on f-14s almost everyone of them were disconnected as the pilots were afraid of them.
On planes coming from the manufacturer, we had pilots asking us to give the engines more fuel, we didn't do it because we did not work for the military. We told them you can take that up with your squadron when you get back to your base.
I am not a pilot, but one would think that if you were going to land on an airfraft carrier out in the ocean, having an automatic carrier landing unit would be what you wanted.
If you ever look at f-14s landing on carrier decks, it is easy to tell when the pilot has the plane or the ACLU. If the pilot has the plane, the movements of theflight control surfaces are slower and the plane is moving in various directions. If you took off a panel on an f-14 where the ACLU was located, about 98% coming in from the fleet were disconnected and safety wired in a certain positon so they were not easily reconnected.
If the plane is being controlled by the ACLU, the flight control surfaces are moving so fast that it is impossible for a human to move them that quickly. The main fusilage is not jinking all over the place and is mainly steady.
None of us had commerical A&Ps but did have an equivalent government stamp to vailidate the work we performed on military aircraft.
One of the things we did for the military was to help the military keep frontline jets in a state or readiness at all times. A typical f-14, without any pilot discrepancies, would require 98 hours of maintance for every hour it flew.
When I was a plane captain, I never saw an f-14 come back from a flight without any discrepancies. Not just me, but anyone working the flight line would say the same.
The only reason I am mentioning this was where you showed a paper where it thought the mechanics would not be interested ? in the cables for the flight control surfaces. I have never heard of such a thing. We had to know the aircraft we worked on from the tip of the radome to the exhaust gas nozzles of the engines.
We could not be on the flightline and have incomplete knowledge of how the planes we worked on operated.
We did stupid things like use rig pins to assure that the flight control surfaces were operating properly and within their operational envelope.
Okay, little old school as everything nowadays has gone to fly by wire.
All I can tell you is I have watched a number of your videos and this one really scares me. I have never had a commerical A&P and changed careers in the mid 80s and have not worked on an aircraft since.
I just think of the Alaskan airline flight 261. This is what I think of when I get on commerical airplanes to fly somewhere. We were under and IRAN mandate which was inspect and replace as necessary. If componens were questionalble or out of tolrance, we just replaced them and did not depend on maintaince inspections or maintance intervals to replace defective components.
To me, it takes a lot more than sending someone to a school to be able to pass a test to get an A&P. It is kind of like when you talk about certain ways to fly an aircraft, samething regarding the maintance of an aircraft.
What is really scary is there are very few airport hubs which have actual mechanics, much less, parts.
Most commerical airplanes are operated under the assumption that if there is a problem beyond a very basic mantaince issue, a plane can be flown to a hub or maintance depot for repairs.
Not much of a comfort level when you think of all the problems in the aviation industry.
What is even more scary is all the fake/uncertified parts being sold and intstalled on commercial airlines. This has happened in the past, but a train wreck is definitely coming where there junk parts are going to cause more and more planes to fall out of the sky.
Just do a google search on fake parts in the commerical airline industry if you want to see what a problem the fake parts are.
Once again, excellent analysis!! This is just so incredibly sad (as are all aviation accidents)!! I must say I'm increasingly shocked at how cavalier some people can be on their jobs particularly when even one honest mistake can have such dire consequences!!
I don’t get it either. I work as an aircraft cleaner and ramper and I’m borderline paranoid with how careful I am with the aircraft I handle. For example we have to use a banksperson to guide us up to the aircraft under the tail while reversing the water or lavatory truck to fill/flush the tanks.
I get a little nervous when it’s a new banksman who I’ve never worked with before. I’m generally extra careful with my reversing when working with someone new. I’ve become real good at looking at the tail above me and knowing how much space I have left which I occasionally use in addition to the banksperson.
I would feel bad enough merely accidentally ramming the underside of the tail and getting it grounded while they check the structural integrity of the aft bulkhead hasn’t been compromised and fixing any dents after I reported my mishap. (We don’t get punished for making genuine mistakes. Better to have the employee feel safe reporting it than failing to report it because they fear losing their job.)
Let alone ramming it, not reporting it and the bulkhead fails during flight and rips the tail apart. Or failing to disconnect the tug for the nose gear properly. I literally don’t understand the cavalier attitude towards a task that could cause a lot of people to unalive if done wrong.
Wow. Sad story here. Glad to see changes were instituted, especially in revision of 65 year old figures used fur critical for calcs. Thanks for sharing.
Appreciated the ad. You are a serious man & now I know what your thoughts are. Thanks!
What a terrifying thing to have happen. RIP to everyone involved. :(
Hoover. Familiar with this story. I love your presentation style and what you brought to it. Great work!
All of your videos are outstanding. Thank you very much. I learn a lot from each one of them.
Feels like your videos can help find clarity to a situation that can help families who've lost love ones find closure
Only after you have a loved one ripped from this world in an untimely manner will you realize how off naive it is to suggest watching a You Tube video may provide "closure."
Currently binge watching all your vids! Stupendous work!
Enjoyed the video very much, thank you!
Hoover , excellent debriefs, thanks
It usually isnt necessary to follow the entire rigging procedure when making a minor adjustment, however the final step when doing any flight control rigging should always be to check the travel.
I always enjoy your videos .
very sad these very qualified pilots to have this happen. I can’t imagine what was going through their minds those last seconds. RIP all
The biggest problem with the FAA is that's its mission charter has a huge conflict of interest built in.
The FAA is charged with promoting air travel - meaning making it accessible and affordable for air travelers and easier and economical for airlines to operate. Its other main charter is to regulate the industry by setting standards for flight operations and enforcing these standards. Often those two goals are in direct opposition to each other and tragically, it usually takes a major accident with fatalities to force the FAA to act when there is a known problem.
This organizational structure needs to be rethought and the responsibilities split between two independent entities.
I remember the crash and reading the NTSB report. Wow, tragic. Rigging mistakes also were the factor in the D-8 crash in Mather. The maintenance troops are so important.
I have a few friends who worked under-wing for a regional.
Although not aviators both knew to never put a super heavy bags at the aft bulkhead.
Their "unwritten" SOP was to reload if encountering exceptionally heavy bags.
Pretty much what we do, although if I’m in doubt about anything I get a supervisor to check it or I ask the captain. The fact that ramper did the same tells me that s/he had some real doubts about how safe that luggage weight was.
The only time the FAA makes changes is when they have a crash. They're not proactive, they're reactive.
I truly enjoy listening to you and learning about aviation history. I wish you great success ~
Excellent documentary...... simplified the accident and explained it to the usual interesting and high standard.... Thank you.. Roger... Pembrokeshire UK
Thank you, Roger!
I love when my favourite channels interweave like this.
Some of your stories leave me sad; this one found me pretty pissed off. Only 7 degrees available for nose down on the elevator? Did people go to jail? Don't mean to offend anyone. I was Air Force maintenance 24 years active and did allot of training during those days. I have little patience for the failures that led to this. God bless the pilots - they must've fought this with all they had.
Better yet, to pile on Beech, the aircraft maintenance manual depicted the elevator trim drum backwards. If rigged according the manual, the elevator trim could be opposite of that set by pilots on the cockpit. This wasn't discovered by investigators for another 8 months when Colgan 9446, a Beech 1900 had the forward elevator trim cable replaced and subsequently crashed in the AO. The manual error was pointed out by a mechanic.
Been watching channels like this for several years. Several countries have prosecuted and jailed surviving pilots and even mechanics and inspectors when gross negligence is found to have caused a crash that resulted in injury and death. For some reason the US does not do this as far as I have been able to learn.
I heard that they had a bit of control with the landing gear deployed. And that the captain knew she was going to crash and tried to get the aircraft in a direction that would cause the least loss on the ground but that retracting the landing gear made it utterly impossible to control.
@@buckmurdock2500 I read about that.
@@mikoto7693 No doubt that lady plot was a hero to some degree. The dregs that comment and try to make it sound like it was her fault, some even referring to her being a female pilot as a fault, its utterly stupid.
Good analysis. It's "Greenville- Spartanburg" airport or GSP as locals call it.
Again a great Video. I love your channel. Keep up the good work.
Thank you for another very interesting video. Merry Christmas from Sydney Australia 🇦🇺
a great friend of a dear friend of mine lost his life in this crash, very sad, very preventable, RIP to that gentleman
Worked for the airline for 10 yrs. The a/c over weight issue might technically be a small cause of the accident, we could put so much mail on the aircraft, I actually left off 500# of mail weight once and we were over gross, but the aircraft still flew with no issues. Pilots were well trained, and I even went on a check ride with check airman M. Alexander. (Video author can check me) the absolute crash of this flight was the fact the turnbuckles in the elevator repair job/maintenance check wasn't checked. Weight and balance, while over gross, wasn't an issue for this a/c type...
I should say "forgot to calculate in 500# of mail I didn't account for (that was loaded)".
What an interesting and informative video. Thank you. All these gubment rules, regulations and oversight and this still happened reminds me of the nine scariest words ever said according to RR.
Such a sad loss of great talent. It sucks when those in charge of aircraft maintenance have a ‘meh’ attitude and even further aggravated by the FAA also…(always)…with the same ‘meh’ attitude.
With todays scanning and tracking every aircraft should know exactly what the weights and balance figures are.
This is one that really hurts with 21 deaths and countless friends and relatives whose lives have been forever impacted.😢
I don’t understand those people. Even as a lowly ramper I treat the aircraft I’m handling with the utmost care. I’d feel bad enough merely doing minor damage to an aircraft that got it grounded for a few days, let alone being the cause of a crash.
What’s crazy is that the superstar singer Aaliyah was killed in the same type aircraft and same overweight scenario 2 years before this, except that her pilots knew they were slightly over but caved in to her management that was trying to rush back to the mainland 😢
So happy seeing Disaster Breakdown's watermark here. She really makes such stellar work, I especially love the weather reports!
Chloe is fantastic and has a great channel!
Thanks!
I love your channel. Thanks for all your work
You are so welcome!
This crash really hit home for me because the brother of a friend and former colleague was on that flight and I went to his memorial service in Austin. You see how many people are affected by the passing of just one of the victims and realize that there are 20 other sets of people who will also be forever grieving their lost friend or family member. So sad.
Like with most crashes, it is always a series of mistakes.
Aka Swiss Cheese Model
When the fat lady in front of me tells the pilots her weight is "120", I tell them MY weight is 400, so they get their balances right :D
Applied mathematician here and not a pilot. I have wondered about the statistical issues surrounding carry on luggage and passenger weights. From a marketing perspective you can't get people to be publicly weighed so you are left with a statistical estimation problem which is ethnically variable. I was amazed that the FAA had not revised those average weight figures. Just gobsmacking and I thank you for explaining that sort of thing.
I read the NTSB report on this accident. It did conclude that if cables for the elevators would've had the correct tension, the pilots could've saved the plane, but due to sloppy maintenance as you mentioned, it only had 7 degrees of max movement. Even with faulty elevator controls, if the aircraft wouldn't have exceeded it weight limit, the aircraft could've been saved. Being overweight and limited elevator movement doomed this flight.
This is a great and informative channel , keep up the great work .
Thank you very much!
I flew Midwest a lot back in the day and on this same aircraft. I remember one time flight we had to move closer to front of plane to help balance CG. 195lb for average adult! There are a lot of "heavy" people out there.
There is a call now (or a suggestion to be more correct) to weigh passengers at the checkin desk for very accurate weight and balance measurements for each flight.
Shocking and tragic that aircraft maintenance could be treated with such casual indifference. I can almost understand the weight and balance errors which were compounded by the pilots, ground handlers and existing industry standards but we all, as pilots, especially air carrier pilots, have the added obligation of the safety of the passenger public as well as our own. Sadly, as well as the passengers, two very promising and talented pilots lost their lives. Just when you think you've done everything right, check again. Especially when you are oh so close to the outer limits of aircraft performance and limitations. Excellent presentation.
Sadly, in this accident I don't see how it could have been prevented by the crew. Ultimately it was the cable tension that thwarted them that day. Makes me wonder what's occurring today with all the new hires throughout the airline industry.
Excellent presentation Hoover. And as others have mentioned, much appreciated that you refrain from using this medium as a jam session 🪕
@@stoldrag85Cable tension didn't cause the crash , aft C of G did .
@@duncandmcgrath6290I thought the video implied that if the elevator had retained its full movement capability it would have given the pilots just enough control to turn and land more or less safely.
I just recently discovered your channel. I just wanted to say thanks for providing this content and quality of these videos. I lost my medical, so these kinds of channels keep me involved. While they are certainly no substitute for being the PIC, they allow me to keep learning although I will probably never fly as a PIC again. So thank you very much!! Subscribed!! And, thank you for our freedom.
I've watched quite a few of these now. I e travelled all over the world with work and never thought twice about stepping onto a plane. Have to say you've made me a nervous traveller now!
dont be, flying is still statistically safer than driving.
edit: but i'm not going to lie, stuff like this does make me nervous about flying.
Me too, especially the smaller aircraft charter jets where the margin’s for error seem to be smaller? Makes me glad that when I go on holiday all the hold bags are weighed and the seat sizes (sort of) restrict the maximum weight of passengers 🤞
Admittedly I would be a little nervous about flying aboard those little or private charter planes, especially if it was a single pilot aircraft. But not if flying on an airliner such as an A320 or bigger.
I was commuting to Chicago that day. I heard about the accident when I was riding the parking shuttle to the terminal. Very tragic.
Thanks.
Great content, new to your channel and enjoy your unique insight 👍👍.
This guy has good 👍 knowledge of aviation explains very well
Hi : thank you for the video
Hey Hoover dam good presentations bro keep it up !
I remember this crash. Previously all I heard about was W&B and CofG issues. Also some pretty horrific CVR.
@pilot-debrief have you ever considered starting a channel related to your fighter pilot career? The accident analysis is always interesting, though there is also a huge interest in having insight and direct "access" to a living, breathing fighter pilot. Or maybe you might consider interviewing military pilots of other aircraft as well (A-10, SR-71,etc.).
Just a thought, as I know doing what you do here, entails a TON of effort and time. Thanks for the great vids, and thank you for your service!!!
Love your videos Hoover.
Thanks! I appreciate it!
The luggage you showed in this video reminded me of the Halliburton metal cases some of us used in the airlines back in the day. Only difference we didn’t have wheels. We carried our bags including heavy flight bags with all our Jeppesen charts every where. A workout to say the least. You didn’t want to get caught dead using wheels on your bags😜😜
It's funny you say that cause I seen a comment not too long ago about why it took so long for baggage companies to figure out wheels on the bag is much better. I think your comment is exactly why. Only a complete idiot wouldn't know that it would be easier for the bags to have wheels so that clearly wasn't the reason. It's the image that's the reason.
I flew the 1900C for some years in the early 1990s. It is maddening to see how this crew and passengers died for antiquated weight and balance plus significant flaws in maintenance.
Scary stuff...✈
The oversight committees are dropping the ball in several areas, including traffic violations, specifically, DUIs. Most charges are dropped. One lady who was not old was receiving her 5th OWI charge. Something stinks.
I worked in that hangar on occasion and knew a lot of the staff there. I can only imagine the terror on the ramp and hangar floor.
That’s a suitcase for billionaires .
You know something is crazy expensive when the coupon code is $300 lol. Probably 3k for that suitcase!
Nothing frightens me the way aft CG does. When I saw that's where the story was going I got so sad for everyone on that plane.
The botched maintenance was performed at Huntington Tri-State (KHTS), the site of the 1970 Southern Airways flight 932 crash that killed the Marshall University football team and numerous members of the community. Marshall University recently started an associates degree program at KHTS to train students for certification as airframe, powerplant, and avionics techs. However late, hopefully, this addresses the shortage of qualified maintenance personnel.
When I was training, my instructor wanted to show me how the plane felt overloaded and he put 3 additional full size adults in a C172 for a total of 4. I don't have the exact weight but I remember the useful load was 800 pounds and if fuel was 150 leaves 650 for at least 800 for 4 people. I remember I had to push control column forward after lift off as the nose lifted.
I've been retired for 15 years. When working as a designer in aerospace I knew a supervisor who would say "the drawings are only a suggestion." I told him "well I hope when this thing crashes it doesn't land on your house". It didn't change his attitude but hearing the same attitude at Beech and Boeing it must be universal (and probably in every industry for that matter). The risk of any of my work ever causing harm to anyone was never far from my mind. Maybe holding everyone making cavalier decisions about their work accountable would change things. Mere reason didn't work.
What surprises me is that it seems that the emphasis on mitigating the problem had to do with fixing the weight calculation. This of course sounds like a good idea. Even so, one would think that any specification would have some built in margin of error.
The most serious problem IMHO was the slip shod way that the maintenance was done. This might be mitigated by providing a check list and requiring signatures on the document.
Congratulations on scoring a sponsor! Happy Thanksgiving Hoover!
Hey brother I LOVE your videos! They are clear and well-explained wtihout any unnecessary fluff. Just a minor note: That flight was headed to Greenville, SC, not Greensboro, which is in the other Carolina.
Thanks! You are correct. It was just a minor misspeak.
Hey PD! I live in Moravian Falls NC Retired from US Navy 1995 Electrician on F-14/DC9/DC8 aircraft several cruises aboard USS America CV-66 in 79 n 81 GREAT DAYS! GodSpeed..
The Sterling Pacific luggage looks robust and one would certainly stand-out. There were no wheels on bags until possibly the 90s, but I remember my parents had a collapsible small hand-cart in the '70s to assist with hauling them (I use Mendoza luggage, which are hard to find, but have lasted me years). Cheers and thanks for the content, Logan, BC 🍁
Did you know a Northwest Airline pilot founded TravelPro Rollaboard luggage after designing the collapsible handle and suitcase with wheels?
Did you pay $2,000 for it?
@@xbpbat21x For my Mendoza luggage? I was living in Sydney, AU at the time and managed to source 3 pieces really cheap. Two are the Mendoza Seahawk and the other is a different model, but all are excellent
@@jcheck6 No, I did not know that, but I remember seeing those Plastic Samsonites first with wheels on one end. I still have one that I use for storage