The End of Unity | Dropped Frames Episode 365
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ส.ค. 2024
- Catch DROPPED FRAMES LIVE every Sunday 1PM ET on / itmejp !
We're joined by Rami Ismail this week to get to the bottom of the Unity changes that were announced last week and what that ultimately means for educators, hobbyists and developers big and small. We also check our hype levels for the upcoming changes and expansion to Cyberpunk 2077. We've also played the bonkers Mortal Kombat 1 & the soulslike Lies of P!
0:00 - 0:50 - Intro
3:20 - Cyberpunk 2077 2.0 hype check
7:30 - New release: Mortal Kombat 1
18:10 - Early Release: Lies of P
45:35 - Rami joins
48:20 - Unity (or the lack thereof)
2:17:35 - SAG-AFTRA targeting the games industry
2:32:00 - Destiny 2 broken wide-open
2:49:30 - Shoutouts
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#DroppedFrames #unity - เกม
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I just want to say I really appreciate how you always drop the episodes with full timestamps.
💯
With in the hour too. True dedication.
its actually really hard to read the timestamps with the white box
Should add a segment to each episode called What Game is Cohh Playing During the Show
He’s like a family friend destiny. That ADHD is working full force
i know its only a minor thing, but in this episode i found it extremely annoying, maybe also disrespectful to rami
@@acidfolk652Probably minor, but being annoyed by something that the hosts don’t care about is wild. It not interfering with the show other than this comment is insane behavior.
@@acidfolk652 Some ADHD people really just need something to do on the side. Pretty sure all of them know each other well enough to understand it
I could listen to Rami talk about games and the industry for hours. Love it every time he is on the show!
Thanks for keeping everything real, Rami. The gaming community at large talks so much without input from actual developers, it's good to hear a more inside perspective.
This has to be illegal! Like seriously there is/should be no way you can employ a ToS retroactively!
I have been a hobby dev for about 8 years just tinkering on about 6 different projects in Unity. When this happened I downloaded Godot, returned my Unity license, and uninstalled the Unity Hub. I am currently looking into removing all registry entries because I have no trust in them.
“How do they know how to track installs?”
That point should be driven home by devs: Unity is admitting to having a far deeper access to customer data than advertised.
Every unity install is a major security and privacy breach!
Either that or they don't know yet and their management are going "that's a dev problem; they'll figure it out"!
They basically just said "trust us bro". lol.
Also its in Unity's financial interest if its not tracked properly and devs get charged extra amount of times. There is no way its going to be as fair as they claim.
The whole thing is disgusting because devs wouldn't even be charged per copy sold, instead being charged multiple times per sale with no actual limit. And this is after the expensive licensing fees devs already pay per person working on the game.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. I genuinely don't think the C-Suite understands how their own engine works. It's like the person with a luxury car that hasn't changed their oil in 200k km.
They just talked about vague black box AI magic system.
@@msclrhdAs someone who worked at a company where the CEO would sell new features for our software, before asking how or if we could do it, I can believe that.
This reminds me of the Wizards of the Coast D&D license debacle.
Every episode with Rami is a treat.
we neeed him to be a host honestly
No
“I estimate you owe me lots of money. Way more than last time. No, we will not provide exact figures.”
Here, fixed that for you. “I estimate you owe me lots of money. Way more than last time and here is the data we generated for proof.”
@@balmora4051 yes, that is definitely what I meant 👍
Sounds like the same thing I hear around April every year 🙃
I'm already finished watching the Twitch stream. (That thumbnail, though.) highly recommended for someone who watches VOD. The Lie of P looks amazing. The Unity Engine situation was a dumpster fire.
On the note of Larian being a studio that has existed to eventually make Baldurs Gate 3, I'm very curious to see where Owlcat go after Rogue Trader.
Wow! This was such an eye-opening episode. Thank you all so much.
Rami telling Cohh that kickstarter is risky made my day. I dont feel bad about losing the $40 I backed for Cohhs attempt at a crpg, but I dont feel like I got anything other than a lesson not to back kickstarters from it.
Kinda hard to see this Unity-thing going through legally. I think Unity would find it hard to bill companies without receipts. Also EU might have a say in it. Also imagine Unity customer support if people just sent GDPR requests to them. There is a fixed deadline for the response or they get fined (depends of the company size, but it can be up to 20 million euros).
But I'm no expert on these matters.
It was a really interesting DF, yet again. Thank you all.
Yeah, specially the retroactive thing. Like, that's not how any of this works legally. You can't just change a contract like that and ask for money before the change? How does anyone even sign off on something so ludicrous. Besides, how would they even know how many installs a game had?
That unity shit wouldn't fly in EU, certainly not the retroactive stuff
Always love to see Rami on the show.
It's much more difficult to repair lost trust between business partners than it is between company and a consumer.
Re: naturally occurring insane bugs, I had an experience with Warframe years ago, back when it was still in early beta, where I was playing on my laptop on shitty hotel internet, and clicked the button to collect the little resource gathering drones you can deploy to planets.
The resources were collected, but the drone stayed deployed to the planet, and I could click the "collect" button again. After spamming it for a few minutes, I had millions of basic crafting resources.
I made a bug report to DE, detailing the combination of factors that lead to it, screenshots, dxdiag, logs, etc, and asked if they wanted to remove all the extra resources.
They basically said "Huh, that shouldn't happen. We won't be changing anything on your account."
And to this day I have never needed to farm the basic crafting resources in Warframe. Although they've added a million new resources to grind since then anyway.
I'm so glad Rami was on the show to speak on Unity and how...utterly brain dead they are to even think about doing this idea.
I've never seen Rami so animated, mad, and ultimately sad about anything before. Just a bunch of greed could potentially upend the whole game industry.
I hope people slap some sense into Unity before they cause real harm to people's lives, careers and whole damn industry
And just a few weeks later he gave his next great rant on the Epic layoffs. Though that was more anger and not utter bafflement and confusion than this one was.
I’ve been watching the Unity news like a hawk to see how that situation develops, and your discussion is the most comprehensive breakdown I’ve been able to find. First time listener.
The scary part at this moment is that Unity’s just let this simmer over the weekend. Their immediate response was not to backtrack and re-examine their leadership- rather let the news simmer, then follow with a tentative revision that’s still crappy, but less so. I fear the community won’t agree on what’s an acceptable counterproposal, and the sheer size and specialization of the user base means many will ride-or-die with the enshittification. The immediate payoff and non-centralized resistance mean Unity won’t face the catastrophic retribution that’s necessary to rectify the situation.
The whole scenario sickens me. The last time I felt this gross was over Microsoft’s “welcome to the Family!” Bethesda acquisition, which was also, unfortunately, only a precursor of things to come.
The money talks, and right now it’s dominating the conversation.
Now we have episodes for every day of a year.
Going to be an interesting show.
Thank you Rami for all the help he is providing to developers!
Just out of couriosity, if they want to charge everything prior to this change, how are they going to do it? How are they going to track all installs for all the previous titles?
That was a wild show.
This install fee is to push MTX into every layer of the hobby.
it's like a de-evolution back to arcade games where you spend a quarter to keep playing into infinity
A note about geforce now and installs... every time you play a game, an install happens in the back ground...
just... food for thought (a day late)
Many big engineering school in my country (France) have a mandatory Unity course because learning C# with it is one of the easiest way to do something cool while understanding the fundamentals of object oriented programming.
This Unity drama is insane.
Also it's funny that everytime Genshin is mentioned, JP goes gAmBlInG?!
Anyway to give more information about Mihoyo's position on this, they are most likely not involved in this whole "pay 20ct per install" because Mihoyo has shares in Unity China since 2022. They made a whole new company called Unity China that is co-owned by Unity, Mihoyo, Oppo and a few others; the partner companies have a majority of ownership so they basically control Unity China. So If Mihoyo was paying money per install, they're basically paying it to themselves.
It also puts Microsoft in a tiny bit of a weird spot, because Unity is in the installer for Visual Studio, and has been for since the 2017 installer.
Still suprised at the Destiny bug being found so late, its no secret FPS has a significant impact in the games mechanics so much so that it enables you to do movement nobody else can in PVP giving you an edge, it can also mess with DPS.
I don't know what camera he is using, but boy does Zek look crisp!
What Unreal should do right now is this: Offer a "free equal assets transfer" to Unreal engine. "Hey dev we know you are getting screwed by Unity right now. Come over to us and lose nothing - get assets from our store equal to what you have on the unity store" (how to do that is for someone else to figure out) and then make a 10 year guarantee about not changing the royalties program they use... It will cost a huge sum of money up front - sure - but after that they get 5% of all the sales from all the devs seeking refuge... That way they become the heroes for saving the industry - and get a huge amount of new products using their engine at a steady royalty rate.
The Destiny 2 crafting glitch is so freaking fun. It was super fun while it lasted.
The only thing that can give any remote hope for the product's future is the resignation of the president and the board, and making the source code open-source. The company has self-destructed; what remains now is to try to protect and revive its legacy. If they do this and the product survives, they might try to restructure into a new, leaner company, focused on services (or perhaps limited to selling the editor).
They didn't touch on the possibility of studios with in-house engines possibly selling rights to their engines, although I don't know who would be interested in doing so. Keeps people coming to their games, but since Unity will leave a void, it may be an option to get some revenue from people that are willing to jump into learning a new engine. Also be a good way to scout self learners for hire instead of training them.
The second one sounds like the most illegal, but the reality of it is, every app and program does this already. Let's not forget that Unity bought out that malware-gone-adware company a few years back or whatever. They've been planning this for a long time. lol
Nice
owlcat is nothing like larian, owlcat can’t even ship the Kickstarter rewards from their last game and now sell the boxes for the new game.
The war made it hard, but even the boxes they got out before it were faulty and broken stuff…there is no quality in Owlcat, the concepts they have are great, but they fail at execution all the time.
That Destiny 2 bug seems like the server just accepts the client input. That is generally a bad idea, because you can't trust the client. It's not under your control and can be hacked. But video games need to do a lot of things fast, so they do accept some risk by letting the client decide some things. In this case it seems it would have been better to let the server decide. Crafting doesn't like like something that needs to happen extremely fast anyways...
as a semi fan of the actor Idris Elba after his Luther show in UK, its pronounced "ID ris" not Eeed ris, its spelt with an I not an E JP
MK1 did Megan Fox so dirty. You can clearly tell every single voice in the game had post prod fx added. Could be simple as a reverb change, but EVERYONE got post prod help... except Megan. They took her one take and said "eh, good enough" - Is she a good voice actor? No, not really. Did WB/MK1 throw her under the bus...? 100%.
So do devs get .20 credits for every uninstall?
A quick lesson on selling shares of a company that you own. When you company goes public you acquire in some cases millions of dollars of shares in your own company. From a financial planning outlook this is really bad because your portfolio is not diversified. It can be really great in the short term as you value goes up but over time it does not make sense because it is a huge risk. Often people with these stock and stock options when working with a advisor will set up a plan to sell a bulk of these share and reinvest into other companies. This plan is normally over 5 to 10 years. Also if the company is public they should report these plans to sell ahead of time so they cannot sell before the knowledge of them selling is public.
Did JP say if he'll try out armored core at some point? Only heard he mention it in an epsidoe 3-4 weeks ago and that was it.
Picking Bethesda over Fromsoft is an indication of either poor judgement or poor skill.
@@Spyger279is it really hard to believe that he may just not be interested in it? I'm a big FromSoft fan but AC is niche and I'm just sorta lukewarm on it. Comparing what Starfield offers to what AC offers makes no sense.
He said in this episode that he doesn't know if he will try it.
@@LtSMASH324 Wasn't thinking about anyone specifically. And it's not really a Starfield vs Armored Core thing as much as a Fallout 4 & Fallout 76 vs Sekiro & Elden Ring thing. It's simply not rational to expect Bethesda to make more worthwhile games than Fromsoft.
As for JP's interest, we know he's into fast paced action/shooter games and complex character building.
Maybe I'm just salty about a developer I used to adore failing to make a good game since 2011.
@@Spyger279 that's what it sounds like. And from what I hear, plenty of people aren't very happy with Starfield and JP is definitely included in that.
Gal gadot is making games now, yessss
Do you think we’d see all these old games updated with a new installer interface to actually install the game, then update the installer to break the game installation on purpose?
If you launched a game in 2013, you aren’t going to make money on it, every install is negative income now. Going back to the time when all AAA devs had their own installer that you then installed the game through, seems to be the only real workaround for limiting your costs.
The music in Lies of P is all from the DJMAX series, another game series from the same publisher, but with new performances. DJMAX is great.
Hehe - the Destiny 2 bug kinda reminds me of Warframe incorporating the... odd movement that a particular weapon enabled.
That's why it has Bullet Jumping now, it came from what was known as Zoren-coptering.
I was disappointed when it was only the three and then when they said Rami was joining later I turned that frown upside down.
Another great example of "Larian-like" focused studio is Mimimi Games... Its a shame that they are closing now ;/
oh no, Shadow tactics was so good :( I guess Shadow Gambit didn't sell much then? I was looking forward to playing it once I'm finished with a couple of the games I'm playing now.
edit - oh actually they're just all very tired and decided to just stop after so many years of hard work. That's cool.
Yeah this news is fairly old, I remember reading an article about it months ago.
@@jeanschysono it wasn’t directly tied to gambit, they had decided before that game and they wanted to release something one last time (at least that’s how the article described it a few months ago).
Makes me want to go play destiny now.
I feel a bit called out as a steam user. Also wasn't aware my problem was that common 😅
"Unity fks over devs" Me: hehe, it is what it is
"Rogue Trader and Cities Skylines 2 is on Unity" Me: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Now i hope steam set updates to happen when i run it as default. I have had games installed for years and steam keeping it updated, constantly.
And yeah, say goodbye to updates.
You actually don't buy outfits in FGO
The CEO selling shares consistently, and in equal amounts is called structure sales and is in fact illegal. The SEC will be looking into him for sure, or at least I hope they do and they can get enough out of him in fines because otherwise they don't have the budget to spare. Stupid congress.
I'm pretty sure that's only if it's used to hide a larger stock sale. If he's selling 2000 odd shares a month as part of his own cashflow it's not going to amount to anything.
This guy is a POS but everything regarding the stock is legal. All his stock sales have been legally filed with the SEC.
Just saying, if Twitch bites the dust with a new per viewer cost model, Microsoft Teams added support for streaming games a while back... :D
Streaming only= You will Own Nothing and be Happy. “ Klaus Schwab, The Great Reset”
EASY FIX ALL DEVELOPERS ADD GAMBLING SLOT MACHINES TO EVERY GAME BUILT IN UNITY TO DISQUALIFY YOUR GAME FROM BEING CHARGED BY UNITY
Being fair to Megan, actors are constantly told to "bring it down". It's their fault for not directing her properly.
1:58:12 hahaHAHa zeke, never change.
I dont understand one thing about this Unity thing: How can it be legal? You cant just change a contract after the fact without consent of all parties, can you? That sounds ridiculous.
I hope the 2.0 update doesn't destroy how smooth the game runs at the moment. Although i hate the way you can't finish the game then go back into the world. you literally have to suspend the main quest at the point of no return, it is very fucking lame.
Hope you got Rami to talk about bg3, indie devs, and Great Expectations
Why would they be talking about Dickens?
This Unity case seems like a first year high school student's first entrepreneurship course project, before it has even been vetted by peers.
I cannot wrap my head around how a boat with so many holes in the hull was ever able to leave the port.
Unity PR is as quiet as Bethesda PR is about patching Starfield.
Is this even legal? Can you retroactively change your terms of agreement or a contract like that? I wonder what is the opinion of a lawyer on this. This sounds like a really unreasonable business practice.
I actually wanted to download Rami’s fishing game because it was new to me, and I had to specifically stop myself.
Genshin have the money to lawyer up. Plus i imagine they have their own unique contract anyway
Hoyoverse company has shares in Unity China. Sooooo that would maybe not be effected by this. If they are they would just be paying that money back to themselves anyway it sounds lol. If they can't then yeah would be awesome to see them lawyer up and dunk on Unity with the rest of the dev studio communities.
As a musician I was trying to figure out a equivalent (spotify is a distribution platform not a creation tool so its bad comparison). The 1 to 1 I suppose would be if AVID (or any other DAW maker) told me that every track that I have made in Pro Tools would cost me 20 cents per unchashed play (song not in the device memory) on any and all platforms past, present and future... So effed. As a fellow creator of art I feel for all game devs having to deal with this garbage.
If I was a dev (sunk cost or no) I would abandon ship as soon as possible. Clearly there is not gonna be a change with current leadership. Riccitiello is not gonna become benevolent and level headed and fair just because you all got pissed, he is a broken and effed up person who like many humans in his position has lost their grasp on reality.
Funny but not "haha" funny side note, the artbook for starfield is made in unity so I bet Bethesda and MS are stoked since its a forced Download/install if you have the premium upgrade on gamepass which a lot of people bought as a "cheap" alternative to play the game early.
Peace and take care.
"imagine paying for a demo" yeah ... imagine...
For the people that want to feel like Bobby Kotick - 1:28:50
Let me make one thing crystal clear:
Zeke_III, this is the right amount of beard imo.
Looks like destiny has some warframe weapons.
I see greed is still good, sickening.
They don’t want to switch to revenue because their main target are gacha free 2 play games like Genshin that make way more money than switching engine(for now). I bet they don’t care about future of unity and those board just want quick money and bail.
In what world is ac6 not a great looking game. People are actually hopeless.
@@Bodwaizer for the sake of humanity, I hope you are an ai.
This is why unions are so important. This type of bs would not fly if there were unions that these greedy bastards had to contend with. I am never against someone trying to make more money, but people always over-reach and destroy lives when motivated by this level of greed.
This situation has nothing to do with unions. Developers are the Customers they are not Unity employees.
I wish someone on the inside would leak some documents. I really want to know what the Unity's big plan is with all this.
To me it feels like this whole tracking installs thing is either a lie to just charge devs arbitrary amount of money every month or is just a front for making every single unity game a spyware to collect and sell user data. Just like Rami said, tracking all installs across PC, MAC, Xbox, Playstation, Switch and mobile devices is just basically impossible. Even with the most aggressive spyware ever I don't think you can get accurate results as to what Unity is promising right now. And I have no idea how they can implement it in a way that user won't be able to tamper with it and do who knows what.
I'm not a professional gamedev but from my understanding Unity can't even implement a proper DRM in its games. For example Denuvo is usually baked into exe as 100s of megabytes of basically bloated mess of a code to make reverse engineering and removal of it way harder. This was couple of years ago and If I remember it correctly, Unity games with Denuvo implemented in them had just a dll with all DRM baked into it and exe was mostly unmodified, which made DRM completely useless as it was pretty much instantly bypassed.
It is also hilarious that they say fraudulent installs won't count, like pirated copies, install bombing, etc. So the best option in this situation is going to be to buy a unity game, never download it and just pirate it instead. This is honestly the most dumbest and craziest thing that ever happened in gaming history. I am just shocked.
The GDPR nightmare this would become in European countries is...hooo boy.
What i dont understand is how da fucking all this bs is legal in any country in the world, especially the retroactivity thing lol Where are the lawyers when we need them? 😅
Preparing their cases. But the trouble is that costs money to do and if you're finances are such that development time is already paid for from your previous game how much money are you likely to having sitting around for costly litigation? I agree that it doesn't seem legal especially retroactively changing a contract, but this isn't a case where the lawyer can take part of the settlement or legal award since at best you prove they can't do retroactive contract changes which won't have a pay out. Developers could MAYBE make some kind of case for counter suit but then you would have to have concrete provable damages and that seem iffy at best. It really seems like a get screwed by install fees or get screwed by legal fees take your pick kind of situation, though maybe a lot of groups could band together in a class and try for a class action suit.
2:45:47 no, you can apsolutely still buy and install indie games (that cost money). Just make sure you install it once. If you pay X amount of money for the indie game and then install it once then you will make that dev X-0.20$ of money....
For the longest time I thought Lies of P was from a european developer and so I was expecting a shitload of eurojank based on the game's trailers and overall presentation. But as it turns out it's super polished and I learned it's actually by a south korean studio. That instantly made my interest go from 0 to 100
Dammit I found it the dev team cherry and the sequel to hollow knight is being made on unity. So many games are made in unity is crazy. I hate to say it but Sony or Microsoft might have to just buy unity😂lol to save the industry. This decision and the board at that company need to be jeeted to space
Don't install games, pick up your controller and pretend to play with your favourite content creator
1:20:30 Unity started mansplaining lol
That end of the show... lmao
The MK switch graphics aren't worse than Starfield NPC's to be honest...
I loved Cyberpunk day 1. I have 800+ hours in the game. Looking at some of the major changes and I'm getting a bit nervous. They might have nerfed too many things. I liked the crafting system and it seems like they have almost removed it. Maybe not quite that drastic but armor no longer has slots for upgrades so unless they buffed the hell out of the cyberware options, they definitely nerfed the hell out of defense and using armor slots for buffs. I'm worried they over compensated with all of the changes. The game was drastically better than release so I am not sure why they needed to revamp the entire skill system again.
You’ll get mods to rebalance if you don’t like it. And you can do things to roll back. Remember though, you sort of have to recall this is all supposed to fit with the new stuff.
Honestly, it's time for a new intro jingle.
I enjoyed this one for years and the updated graphics were cool. I remember being super hyped when this was originally implemented and all.
But it's time. It has run it's course. I started skipping it.
Maybe microsoft should buy out unity
1:19:00 😂 He’s Islamic right? If he’s avoiding haram, he best not be gambling.
It's almost as if the Switch is hot garbage
Actually unity is mega giga based because they tried to kill the absolute degeneracy that is genshin inpact
Not really, they didn't want to kill it. They wanted to suckle on the teet of infinite money from people addicted to NotGambling(TM)
Rami making excuses for a trillion dollar company to not update their pipelines and engine is repugnant
nah it makes sense regardless, still think they should be better since they have the money for it though
The unity discussion
- almost like capitalism is bad and having an education system, or life based on capitalism general is like building on quicksand
God, I hope Microsoft doesn't just plan to buy Unity and this is just another tech company trying to make a good million (or a billion) to get eaten up. If anything has ruined this industry it's all the merging that happens.
We also heard Microsoft had a long term wish to buy Valve, and by proxy that would have to mean the whole Steam structure.
As for Unity, I'll probably just be more willing to support developers using it. I believe Kira uses Unity and has demos periodically, and I loved the gameplay for Lunacid. I think another developer I enjoyed made Slice & Dice and that was free at the time, so I'd probably go back and give them ten bucks for the time I've spent playing it.