The Entire History of RPGs
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 พ.ค. 2024
- RPGs have come a long way... and people still can't even seem to agree on a definition.
0:00 - introduction
1:38 - origins and definitions
12:21 - but what was the first RPG?
28:53 - the golden 80's
49:25 - the JRPG
57:57 - the turbulent 90's
1:35:17 - the C stands for console now 00's
2:04:29 - 2010's A-side
2:20:48 - 2010's B-side
2:33:07 - RPGs today
/ neverknowsbestyoutube
Dungeons and Desktops - shorturl.at/szACM
Matt Chat - / @mattbarton
CRPG Book - crpgbook.wordpress.com/
CRPG Addict - crpgaddict.blogspot.com/
sources and gameplay footage - pastebin.com/1CdvsNCx - เกม
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Hi! I was the lead designer on Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning. For the record, the game DID turn a profit. Not a smash hit but respectable for a first outing. It just didn’t generate enough profits to fund an MMO at 38 Studios in addition to keeping Big Huge Games afloat-the amount it would have had to make in a very short time to clear that bar was untenable. (The whole story is very complicated, but I feel compelled to at least address that one point, as it’s a common misunderstanding)
I really liked that game. There is something about it different that no other games to this day has similar. The only other game that provides that similar feel might be Sacred 2. But what is it exactly?
Chakrams were sick
Oh wow, what a treat! Kingdom's of Amalur is good fun. I hope you are proud of your work there
Cook him
I loved Kingdoms of Amalur, one of the most fun combat systems I’ve ever played and it was so, so pretty!
"Then-esteemed PC publisher Electronic Arts" 🤣
What's so funny? Maybe most of y'all are too young to know, but EA genuinely were a very respected publisher before. I'd also say that for all the valid criticism of them today, gamers often go too far and overblow many criticisms, while giving others a pass for doing much of the same shit.
@@maynardburger I believe what they found funny was the fact that EA isn't highly esteemed anymore, and the manner with which that was acknowledged in the video's script.
It's true that EA was actually a force for good, way back in the day. Let that be a lesson how corruption is an ever present threat.
In the 1980s, Electronic Arts made or published some of the best games. On the Atari 800, when I saw a game with the logo that Electronic Arts used back in the day, I knew it would be top quality. I still play some of those games to this day. It's sad to see what was once one of the best companies in the business turn itself into a joke.
@@maynardburger eh, by the late 90s EA was already the Borg buying off and killing venerable smaller studios like bullfrog etc. I already disliked them and saw their game quality as lower even then. A lot of the trends of corporate video game making were pioneered by EA in the late 90s.
Man watching almost 2 hours of older RPG’s to end up at Oblivion really puts into perspective how fuckin gorgeous and groundbreaking that game was when it came out
As an RPG lover since 90's...this is another enjoyable long video to fall asleep to
Something about this genre of TH-cam video. The long form talking with b roll. I love it.
2010/11 having Mass Effect 2, Skyrim, Fallout New Vegas, Dark Souls, and Witcher 2 all in that 2yr span was INSANE to experience
in terms of quality the Fallout 3, Mass Effect and Bioshock times around 2007 were pretty good as well.
and only Dark Souls was good
Go back 2 months to November '09, and add Dragon Age: Origins as well! :)
It was a bad thing, you couldn’t decide which game to play 🤣
@@bake-io1cfbait
I can't believe we're far enough into the 2020's that we can have such a deep dive into the 2010's and the effect they've had on RPGs. It felt like only yesterday.
yeah like. 1980 was over 40 years ago
There are things we learn and things we experience "time flies" my bros.
Amen @@sicko990
2020s can already be crowned the worst decade of the last 80 years
Opened this video, noticed the run time and said to myself. No way I'm watching a nearly 3 hr video. But decided just to watch the beginning for a nostalgia trip see if you'd included the SSI games I played in the 80s. You did include them and so many other great games. I've played at least 80% of them all. Amazing video, so spot on it should be used to teach young devs and gamers in general. Hopefully it's not just old farts like me who will love this video.
I was born in 2004 and I very much enjoyed this video although I'll admit the earliest game I recognized was wasteland
Wow how old are you 😅. Makes me want to go back and play some of these games to experience how great they must've been for the time
I still play many to this day. It's nice to be able to play some like arcanum or morrowind on android, and satisfying to see remakes (Gothic I) popping up!
Many trends on the gaming industry, and creating a common denominator for larger playerbases, made fundamental features disappear over time.
@@vaibhavdalip 45... Unfortunately lol
@@mlegarth I'm 24 and lost. Any life advice?
This video was well-made and genuinely a joy to watch. Thanks for the great work, NeverKnowsBest!
Really glad that "entire history" seems to be becoming a long running series.
And if there’s a genre that needs it, it’s RPGs.
I hope we get racing games next!!
I've heard 'entire history' is actually a continuous process, so it's only natural.
Give it a few years until "Entire History of Entire History of"
yeah chatGPT doesnt get tired so fast..
Nice to see a shout out to Dragon Quest.
RIP Mr. Akira Toriyama.
Toriyama-san will be truly missed, but his legacy will always continue to live on.
On that note, I hope NeverKnowsBest decides to make a full video on JRPGs. There's so much to delve into.
Weird that after DQ4 they are all remakes of each other more/less.... The first trilogy was amazing and the series should have expanded on that plotline. Simple but still immersive.
A shout out to probably the 2nd biggest RPG video game franchise and literally the first JRPG in the history of RPG vids lol
there is only a shout out to dragon quest? it is one of the most influencial rpg in the world
it stopped being good after the trilogy and dq4, only overpriced remakes/rehashes after that@@khelsonofcenty
ive had this video on hold for like 2 weeks it was in my tabs because of its length always putting it aside saved for the moment i can actualy watch it complete .. and now since ive seen it what a beaufitul and respectful way to walk through history ... i can only imagine all the work needed to create this one. and man it was worth it waiting for the moment i can actual sit back and relax and enjoy the video all the way through. thanks for this one .. this .. just great .. thank you
Fantastic production! Huge thank you for making these videos :)
I'm 42 and been playing jrpgs, crpgs, and ttrpgs my entire life and I have seen it all. I am HERE for this video!!!
Many 40 somethings watching this video. Not many 40 somethings commenting they're here to watch the video.
@boru1982 no, there's a bunch actually. You don't have to do this, man. We were both lucky to get to be around for all this. Why can't we both be happy about that in our own way? Anyway, have a good one. I won't be back. Too old for this type of thing these days. 1981 after all. Thought I'd mention that just for you :)
I'm 40, here spending even more hours watching this guys videos. I've only just started to actually add up the hours I've spent here on just this channel alone and it's outta control! But hey, fuck it, best to just not think about it I reckon because I'm going to watch'em any goddamn way so why worry haha.
I'm 44 and a pirate since the Commodore 64 era, I've played everything, and I mean every thing
best era for experimentation was the Amiga 500, to me, it was a good balance between people programming anything and genres not yet being consolidated
in the days I used to receive 100 disks a month and some games I couldn't even play because they had no manuals, it's when buttons didn't even have tooltips :D
now I'm a "gamepad nazi" on PC, sometimes I don't even play when a game forces me to use keyboard and mouse, I'm sick of the posture, want to lay back and play relaxed
@@boru1982
Do you still play TTRPGs?
Purely anecdotal, but I was a teenager HUGE into crpg's in the mid/late 90's when Ultima IX came out, and another huge reason it flopped was that the requirements to even run it were MASSIVE. Like, if a game today required an RTX 4080 for minimum graphics, massive. Naturally neither me nor my other rpg friends could even afford it, only that one kid with rich parents that just got a new PC could run it. The one in our school that got it said it was fun, but I think he just wanted to sound cool because some of us went to try it and the bugs were basically unplayable. Basically a combination of hella bugs and the huge requirements would have made the game a launch flop even if there was a good game under it. That's how bad its circumstances were, it was doomed from quite a few angles. Figured I'd bring up my story since you didn't mention either angle when mentioning how bad it failed.
yeah it felt more like a tech demo than a game...so many bugs
My first Ultima game (and first proper RPG) was Ultima III. Ultima IX was a huge disappointment for longtime fans like me, as it had drifted too far from the characteristics that made those games great in the first place. However, the disappointment was not unexpected, as Ultima VIII was also a disappointment, albeit not to the same degree. In both cases, these games were trying to attract new audiences, but they failed to do so while alienating old fans at the same time. Ultima VIII has good ideas at its core, but it was rushed, and whoever thought it was a good idea to put platforming in a mainline Ultima game should have had his head examined. Ultima IX was ultimately wrecked by the decision to go after the latest technology rather than try to recapture the magic of Ultima VII. This resulted in development hell, bugs, unrealistic (and expensive) system requirements, and an awful lot of graphics with very little game. My computer couldn't play it at the time. By the time I had one that could, I had heard plenty of complaints about it, so I was no longer interested. The technology trap is still a problem. Developers that put so much emphasis on graphics that the quality of the game suffers are courting disaster.
@@heatherharrison264exactly - and you now got AAA modern console games running at janky 30 FPS :P it's quite comical
@@biokodehey! 30 fps is perfectly fine for non action games.
Hadn't that already been the case with Ultima 8 - Pagan? I had to wait for years before it would run anywhere smoothly, and by then other games had gripped me.
Excellent video! Love the musical cues leading into different sections of the video. Especially when the instrumental version of Lohse’s theme started playing near the video’s climax.
This intro of mine to your channel had to take place in two sittings, but whew, was it well worth it.
Congratulations on masterful writing, framing and analysis. Looking forward to watching the rest of your content!
Here we all are... committing 2.5hours to a neverknows documentary and couldn't be more excited to do so. What a great topic!
you mean 1 hour 21 minutes
2x speed, my friend
Im just sad its was not a 5 hour extravaganza
I have spent such an irresponsible amount of time watching vids on this channel lol shits' actually ridiculous.
I think NeverKnowsBest is the best video game analyst because he views the games in the context of the year they were released. So many analysts just crap on all the older games that built the foundation for the genre. NeverKnowsBest analyzes that impact of the game at the time, what innovations it brought, what made it different from its contemporaries.
Your work and channel is SUCH a gem. Thank you once again!
Holyyyy!!! This was a masterpiece of a video. So much care and research put in it. I loved the way the timeline was built and explained. Congrats for the amazing work, you got a new subscriber!!!
Perfect timing for a rainy Saturday evening!!
if that's a euphemism for massive diarrhea we're shit-buddies!
😂@@malchir4036
Doubt you’re in my area, but rainy Saturday for me too. Only thing that would make this more perfect is if this vid dropped right before I was going to bed, lmao
Raining here too
I wish it was raining harder
One thing that has to be noted is that the "collapse" of hardcore RPGs in mid 2000's is that a lot of it is due to the fact that the few US based, RPG centric developers and publishers who survived the 1990's often accumulated debt from these failures(for instance Bioware went away from Interplay after BG2 was done because Interplay wasn't paying the full royalties from the sales of their game which shows that despite the seeming recovery the financial conditions were rather poor) and so they couldn't really adapt to the different conditions of the era, as downsizing meant interests couldn't be paid, making mainstream-appeal games was beyond their reach and making high production "oldschool" game was something they didn't have capital for. As these companies failed, the financial side of game development(investors, banks) decided that since the successful games in the genre are called Oblivion, Fable or KotOR rather than Temple of Elemental Evil or Lionheart then that's the end of the story on their financial viability.
So in a certain way the crisis of the early 2000's was just an extension of the crisis of the mid 1990's.
I consider the many forced low quality 3d FPS mode RPGs that few fans asked for helped to make this mess in the 90s but while I thought for example mm3-5 were great and mm6 (and there were probably worse examples) a buggy mess mm6 brought a lot of new ppl to the genre who thought the turn based versions were too outdated.
I could ask if bg3 brought back the good old CRPG or was it things like critical role and other RPG streamers that brought a new audience who dont mind the old school ways?
Would a game like bg 3 have thrived 10 years ago? maybe, but Im not so sure.
@anders630 @sheep6665
Both of you gave some very nice/interesting bits of info and thought on top of the videos info wish i could like a comment twice :D
@@anders630you think too highly of "critical role" and others like them. Most gamers who buy BG3 won't know about them, especially outside the stale usa. In fact i will say that DD5e alienated many even as its dumb down mechanics brought in others, but still limited number of ttrpg player.
And a good/ great game stands on its own merit.
@@anders630BG3 hit at just the right time, but Pillars 1+2 did quite well.
@@anders630 Critical role is a blight for Rpgs, all they brought were woke theater kids who don-t care about lore or roleplaying and only want to ship their lgbt furry mary sues forever. Its because of them that Wizards of the coast is implementing horrible changes to DnD and you can't have anything fun anymore because its problematic. The only reaosn BG3 gets praised so much is pandering to that crowd.
These documentaries are some of the best Ive seen.
Amazing work as usual.
Epic! Amazing run-through and great commentary! It really puts things in perspective while highlighting the tremendous amount of work put into this game genre! Thank you sir!
In all fairness, Final Fantasy I was directly based on D&D. It used its base classes, took inspiration from its combat system, directly lifted its spell system, and flat out plagiarized its monster manual. The series eventually moved away from it, but it did start with significant tabletop roots.
Yep. All the way down to the Warrior class (or whatever they called it in FF1) getting healing spells at higher levels. Clearly inspired by the earliest versions of the Paladin, who didn't get Cleric (white mage) spells until they were like 2/3 of the way to their level cap. Unlike modern D&D where Pallies get spells at early levels.
Thank goodness they got more creative.
Which in turn its said to plagiarize Tolkien's Bestiary so... But certain creatures like hobbit had their names trademarked so halfling would do. Also v1 has Succubus, they removed them from v2, but thankfully were put back in in v3, not sure now, lost track of it. But generally, "taboo" topics scare the bigger companies. Whats wrong with sexually luring adventurers to extract their vitality? Counter bean cowards :)
Fun fact in Japan around the 80ies copyright was more relaxed, but started getting harsher later, so in a way, they were forced to do their own stuff.
Every RPG from that time was derived heavily from D&D. D&D WAS Role Playing Game and video games that wanted to be an RPG were heavily influenced by it. I miss games like Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy 1.
I love the lack of logic here
apparently FF is a DD copy because it copied "classes"
i wonder if you also think DD created warriors mages and the likes? as if those things weren't Fantasy elements from books and folklore to begin with
you're an exemplary example of not understanding that there is no real origin to these things and a game using it first on with a board for a platform doesn't make it the father of RPGs *in videogames* these things existed well before D&D
What fascinates me most about Baldur's Gate 3 is that it was in early access for a few good years and wasn't exactly kept secret, and yet the 1.0 still managed to explode onto the scene and make a huge splash. On one hand, I have no doubt the Early Access money helped fund the development into being the successful game that it is, but on the other hand, I am ignorant as to how much was shown and hidden in Early Access that the 1.0 could be a big deal. In regards to a game like Hades, it was in early access on a specific platform (Epic Games Store), and so releasing onto Steam and console contributed greatly. But Baldur's Gate 3 didn't exactly have that same thing going (it did release on PS5, but a month after the PC release, at which point it was already a success).
I played early access bg3 and didn't make it far - it was a very different game initially! extremely difficult and unforgiving, less mechanics and a less obvious UI, and less choice (only a somewhat limited version of act 1 was available). They really put a lot of work into their early access testing to polish it up and improve things and it so clearly shows. I don't think it would have reached nearly this amount of mainstream success without that test period.
The team also marketed the main release a lot more, and I think that marketing catching on helped a lot as well.
I remember the early access version when I played it was very buggy and clunky. Most everyone had written it off as a flop already, I actually got surprised to hear it was releasing because I thought it already came out years ago and just got memory-holed lol
I mean, I can answer that. Speaking as a case in point, I don't have the time or drive to investigate a game that's understood to be solidly in WIP mode. I'm sure that's the majority. Nobody's hurting for things to play in the meantime. It's the reason why I don't really mind that the FF7 remakes are stuck on an underpowered $400 doorstop for a couple of years before I can play them.
Playing EA single player game is weird, especially 100 hours commitment game. If I'm starting a playthough I want to be able to finish it, when for multiplayer game it doesn't matter as much since there's no end.
I remember playing the first EA version and it was a DI-SA-STER. Dialogues formatted in a HORRIBLE way, a bunch of really annoying systems like exhaustion ... - GOSH. But honestly, a lot of people just doesn't play EAs, periodt. I only played it because I'm a cRPG fanatic, I was raring for a fix, I love Baldur's Gate, and I already played Larian games before and loved them. Doubt anyone would just randomly picked it up without at least some of those traits.
Incredible video! So well researched and edited! Thank you!
I was planning on watching this video in segments. Nearly 3 hours later I'm still craving more.
Great video!
You clearly have an insider's understanding of the history of RPGs. You focus on exactly the right games, pause long enough to give the really innovative ones (e.g., Planescape Torment; Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines) the props they deserve; etc.
I've subscribed to your Patreon.
Transition from 80' to 90' decade RPGs was mind-blowing jump
NeverKnowsBest is the definitive retrospective. Perfection, every time.
Thanks again for another lengthy, detailed and we'll polished presentation. Always looking forward to the next one!
Thank you SO SO SO much for this. The amount of research you must've done is incredible, and more than once you twanged fantastic memories of my time playing games. Excellent work.
Wow, Gothic 1/2 are mentioned - 2001/2003 open world RPGs that were in many ways 10-15 years ahead of their time, containing many mechanics that were reinvented later in Skyrim and even The Witcher 3. Yet nobody outside of Germany and a few of its neighboring countries seems to be aware of the existence of these games.
NKB made a whole video about the Gothic series!
Mandalore put it on the map, atleast it's the only person I've ever heard talk of it
@@classica1fungus his evil, moustache twirling counterpart made a video on it too
Mortismal has videos on them as well
Nawt Fax.
Man, your content is just so good. TH-cam has started to consistently replay a lot of videos that I've already watched.
Traditionally, I'd not watch a single video more than once, feeling like I'd gotten all I'd wanted from a presentation with a single watch.
The thing is, by watching your videos more than once, there's just so much to gain from each viewing.
Thank you for all of the work you put into your presentations.
delusional
I've watched this video twice now and I can't believe how incredibly in depth it is.
Bravo on this fantastic video!
Insta-click. Cancel my appointments!
Same here!
But you need that surgery
I'm not your secretary
I struggle to find time to watch movies these days. But a 3 hour video from neverknows?? That's an insta-click!
Absolutely this!
The highlord has spoken
A lot of work went into this video. Great work my friend!
Ecstatic to see the mention of Spiderweb. The Exile/Avernum games are my internal definition for what an RPG is.
Love to see some love for Jeff Vogel
I'm constantly impressed your ability to pump out such long and high quality videos in such short time frames
This video is incredible, can't wait to see what you make next!
Really nice documentary! Thank you for creating this, and truly enjoyed watching this as a huge 80-90's RPG fan and ongoing.
RPGs are the royal genre of videogames, offering most agency and interactivity in shaping their narrative and gameplay experience. Lovely video.
Nah, platformers a royal genre of gaming. Pure gameplay
@@thomasffrench3639nah, FPS better 👺
@@LucasGabriel-lk3ql fps is the shallowest genre. it's just pew-pew to targets with the least amount of depth and even player's agency. Like Matthewmatosis said in Bioshock infinite review, you cannot even avoid enemy shots, you're just a sponge standing in the open.
@@MetalGearyaTV I know bro, I was just joking
@MetalGearyaTV most FPS yes, but when you combine FPS with deeper gameplay systems and narrative choice, you get something like Cyberpunk which, despite its disastrous launch, is a fantastic game.
I much prefer this to the drama videos
agreed
I didn't plan to watch this in one sitting but I just couldn't put it down. The history lesson is so gripping even though I haven't played the older games like Ultima and Wizardry. He puts so much context and background into the games that I feel invested in their story.
I agree, although I respect that this is his channel and that he can use it to voice his opinion and wants to bring attention to things that are important to him.
I am thankful for his content.
While yes it was technically a drama video, he was standing up for someone he felt was innocent when no one else would. That's not exactly keemstar type shit.
This was amazing, thank you so much for this magnificent effort!
A truly amazing history of my favorite genre. Best presentation I have seen lately. Thx for the history and nostalgia trip. I will definitely start bg 1-2-3 again. An I will be I am following you in the future!
Great video! I totally understand your decision to sidebar JRPGs given the length of this video, but I still would have liked to see you note their ongoing influence on western RPGs. In particular, Bioware is on the record saying that Final Fantasy VII was the reason they decided to shift their focus more toward strong characterization and cinematic storytelling from Baldur's Gate 2 onward, and many other western developers followed suit.
Outside of direct design inspiration, the massive success of Final Fantasy VII made many western developers turn their heads and wonder what they might be able to achieve if they reached the console audience.
It is more difficult to find direct inspiration in the PS3/Xbox 360 era as western AAA took off and Japanese games became less popular with the mainstream audience, but there are of course many indie games that are unmistakably indebted to JPRGs, and the Souls approach to design has had a creeping influence that is starting to be seen more and more. Speaking of which, when you were talking about the decline of RPGs before bringing up Baldur's Gate 3, Elden Ring felt like a big omission. Like BG3, it showed that mainstream audiences are starting to come back around to more old school design sensibilities.
It's a somewhat questionable decision given the past couple of years have exposed that more than a few critics have used the term "JRPG" in a derogatory manner. (Not saying he's intentionally implying or doing such, but it's a thorny subject and it would be pretty easy to paint yourself into a metaphorical corner.) We know there has been plenty of influence back and forth between all studios, be they Japanese, American, European, or otherwise. Western made JRPG-style games like Anachronox and Septerra Core did exist, after all.
If it was a question of video length, then the whole thing might would have better off with dividing this into multiple videos by decade. One video covering RPGs of the 80s (JRPGs included), one covering RPGs of the 90s, and so on.
Especially considering a lot of the problems he went over in the video, those gaps were filled by JRPGs. In times he said the "RPG genre" was in decline, JRPGs were flourishing. Since the 80s, Japan has not stopped putting out great games (not to say western games aren't also great).
Yeah leaving out RPGs that happened to be from Japan really dampens the "Entire History" thing because most "JRPGs" are turn-based, and most of this video was CRPGs or Action-RPGs. He says that the definition got muddled as RPGs became more like other genres & other genres got more RPG elements, but it feels like mostly the early segments are RPGs while the rest are RPG-adjacent. Maybe I'm biased, though. Heck, turn-based (J)RPGs can be expanded into other genres like TRPGs like Fire Emblem & X-Com, plus stuff like deck-building card games.
EDIT: I guess what I really mean is that what this video sort of sees as the history & evolution of RPGs to me is more them.straying away from their roots, while (J)RPGs kept closer to them. This video even sorta treats dungeon crawlers, roguelikes/lites, and Action-RPGs as pretty much the same thing, although I'd argue dungeon crawlers & roguelikes/lites are closer to classic RPGs than 90% of the games discussed here. I'd argue what we call "Western RPGs" mostly adhere to the story & immersive elements of D&D while "JRPGs" take the turn-based combat, stats, & dungeon-crawling elements. Western is very Ultima, Japanese is very Wizardry, if that makes any sense.
Ya not including jrpgs is like talking about consoles without including Nintendo lol
It seems to be a theme with this dudes channel. Seems to have something against jrpg's for whatever reason
Incredibly well-done video and deeply appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to make it.
Been there from the start, what an amazing video you created.
You must be full of wild tales from the beginning of RPGs. I'm a bit jealous
Thank you dearly for your content, top tier truly, keep up the great work 😊
Good video, and as an "old man" (well, "internet old"), it kind of felt like watching the story of my life, as someone who was playing Ultima, Wizardry, and Might & Magic back in the 80s, still has my FF1 in box with the manual on a shelf behind me, and spent way too many thousands of hours playing MUDs. The only thing I would say, is I don't think the golden age of JRPGs is really getting it's due. The era of SNES titles like Earthbound, FF2/4-3/6, Chronotrigger, Secret of Mana, and many more, was a really big deal. In fact this is probably the gaming era I look back on with the most nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses. The soon to come crpgs like Fallout/BG/Icewind Dale/Planescape is the only other era that comes close or contends with the true "golden age" title for me.
For people my age (basically, teenagers in the 90s), it *feels* like this is a universal feeling, though it is just a feeling. It is hard to know how much of that is truly universal, and how much is just subjective and personal.
Universal for me as well, probably a similar age :)
You were a teenager in the 90's? I was a teenager in the 60's. So if you're "internet old," I must be "internet dead," huh? :)
I got my first PC in the 90's, but I've never owned a video console, and I don't think I've ever played a JRPG. I have fond memories of most of the games mentioned in the video, though.
@@Bill_Garthright Lol, yes sir those are very heavy quotes on my "old man." The context of day to day life vs. online spaces tends to produce very different age ranges for sure.
(I actually remember playing FFXI online when I was around 21, and thinking a 35ish year old guy was "old" at that time). 🤔
Not getting its due? He almost completely ignores JRPG's as a whole, which is crazy for a video called 'complete history of RPG's'. No, this video is basically entirely about western RPG's. I get the feeling he doesn't think JRPG's are *real* JRPG's, which is something I see among more elitist western RPG fans.
@@maynardburger Yes I kind of get it though - if one is looking back it is hard to see any kind of straight line from like...Breath of Fire II, to Skyrim. It was sort of it's own branch in the history of video game evolution. The funny thing is I also think games like Daggerfall and even Morrowind sometimes get a bit *too much* credit, at least for how impactful they were for their time (and I played them both), because when we look back, that straight line to Skyrim, et al, is of course very easy to draw.
rest in peace akira toriyama. he even contributed to computer gaming in 1986, damn.
Yep, DragonQuest is a cornerstone of the medium.
If you see a blue slime in a fantasy/RPG environment, whether in games or manga, that directly traces back to him.
I really like your extensive videos. High quality all the way... subscribed
This was seriously such a joy to watch! And this is my first video of yours I've seen! Definitely subscribing :)
Excellent video-essay, as always. Thank you NeverKnowsBest!
It's great to have you back! Love the video! I'll expand on this: interesting and rich information on a fascinating subject presented in a right way with your calm voice with good, appropriate soundtrack and visual material just helps me to get through my sometimes difficult life and emotions. Just like our interests and hobbies I guess. But it makes some much difference how it is talked about and presented. And I lived through much of this history as well. Thank you!
Another wonderful video, this time about my (and many others) favourite genre.
I really want to thank you for the colossal amount of work and time you invest into these kinds of videos, to give us deep and well researched content.
Pleaes never stop doing videos of such length, not matter how much the TH-cam algorythm or comments want to persuade you otherwise, they are not great despite their size, but because of it.
No matter how long we have to wait for another video, i already know that it will be worth it, like always.
NeverKnowsBest is the best. Amazing content and historical lessons in here. Never stop doing these.
Wow, came out of nowhere and stole my entire evening. Keep up the good work!
The rarity but monumentality of your videos make a notification of them going up a real bang. Another great vid that comes at a very proper time for me personally, had a blast watching, and I even got teary eyes from Morrowind and Baldur's Gate 3 parts.... You know how to write and direct a moving piece of a vid ye sly fox! :) Patiently waiting for that Baldur's Gate video ;)
The quality of these video documentaries is insane. One of my new favorite channels. ❤
This was a fantastic, educational, and entertaining, well-thought out and executed video. It's more a documentary than a video, really, and I loved it. You've got yourself a new subscriber.
Thank you so much for making these long form documentaries! I can't even begin to imagine how much effort went into this, so I just wanted to know that what you do is loved and greatly appreciated. Thank you!
Wonderful essay again, Never. Pleased to hear you sound so positive in the outro also after the trouble you had last year/year before. Looking forward to you next vid, as usual. Just wish I could afford to support you financially. Thanks again.
This week in retro recommended this and I love it. Thanks for this, it is very interesting.
Absolutely loved this video. As someone who grew up with many, ′though not all′, of these RPG's in a way, as my experiences have mostly been relegated to listening to my friends and family play them while I listen as I am totally blind, I still felt the RPG nostalgea of the old days. Interestingly some of my favorite older RPG's are ones that didn't do well, namely Stonekeep, but I think it says a lot about the genre, and about the awesomeness of this video, and perhaps about the awesomeness of the people I surrounded myself with growing up, that I can still be made to feel this way about a genre I haven't been able to personally play the majority of. All this to say thank you, and provide a bit of my perspective.
So well made... Love watching these "history of" videos from you. I always find myself wondering how in the world you even research something this comprehensive
best of the best, really entertaining... had to cut it over a few days, but this is really nice done.. thanks for your effort..
What an incredible video, so entertaining and I was hooked the entire time. I can't wait to watch your other videos
Yep. Me too
Amazing video! I played so many of those RPGs in the 80s and 90s. A real joy to watch!
Another fantastic video. So happy you are still creating quality content that educates, inspires, and creates a sense of nostalgia and hope. As I've said before, your videos have always provided enjoyment and added depth to a form of entertainment that I have been enraptured by since I was a kid in the '80's.
Thank you, once again.
Beautiful work showing your love for the genre man. A lot of us appreciate it.
First: Congrats on the grand effort of researching the topic (even with resources) and compiling. Great work! I'll recommend this video to my ttRPG and cRPG friends (although 2h 40m might be a challenge for a lot of them XD )
Second: Thank you for giving the market & time period context of decades. Even when living back then, without broader info or later wide web access some things were perceived differently, especially when being from outside of US. For example BG1 was successful in Poland also because it was re-released later at a lower price and with high quality localization (with famous/recognized actors involved - something that wasn't replicated in later decades to that extent).
Third: Congrats on the researching the oldest titles. I don't know from which decade you started your adventure with cRPG, but digging into games before your generation or birth is quite a challenge and I congratulate you on that.
Fourth: The only complaint I am stubborn to pull out: Why no mention of Dragon's Dogma? XD I know there are/were several jRPGs worth of mentioning that didn't make it to the video (I see that the topic was more western oriented). I hoped for DD because it was a '(intentional) Japanese take on western cRPG' that tried to lore/world wise draw from mythology, ancient world and middle-ages, as well as provide a quality story but also being 'less is more' and obviously more action RPG oriented. I'm not sure of it's world/US reception, plus I think it PC version was a port from console (so the console era). It had a niche following but might get more of recognition since Capcom is advertising it's sequel DD2.
Fifth: It was partially mentioned but from (let's say) 00s the involvement of fans in improving games became more obvious. Bethesda is something of a prime example (also for the worst): fan fixes and unity upgrade for Daggerfall, mod content for TES3+ and Fallout games even fan 'port/remaster' projects on older titles (Skyblivion) as well as side content like Fallout London. It may sometimes add to player's frustration that a game may be half-baked and still the fanbase delivers equally good or better content.
Or in case of VtM:Bloodlines 'supporting/fixing/extending' the game long after the original creator went out of business.
Also good luck on your future endeavors :)
Thanks for the massive effort, legend!! 💯👏
I wasn't going to watch the whole video but decided to stay awhile and listen
Glad you're still posting with us here, man. Very proud to support your work.
3 hours of well researched essay, glad to see this
Fantastic stuff. This definitely passed my afternoon quickly!
44:06 You are my hero for including QfG. I would have mentioned its writers made it seem more like tabletop because it felt like a transcription or their DMing. But seriously, thank you!
Quest for Glory, that series was an absolute dream for me growing up. King's Quest point-and-clickers with stats and cool stories. It's everything I loved in one series.
Quest for Glory had a lot of character to it. It was a brilliant idea to merge the point-and-click adventure game with an RPG because the adventure side has the charm and the story telling advantage, while the RPG brings more immersion into that story with player growth and progression by having you improve your abilities. The merging of situational problem-solving, puzzles, survival, real-time combat, and inventory / relationship / and time management was a hell of a lot but I have never played anything that came to life quite like it.
The kid aged 14 that got about 140,000$ cause a company from California found out about his work was very fortunate to be living in a time there was a sense of honor. They helped spread his game out and gave him a fair share especially for his age, these days these evil astards would have taken him for all he's got even though it was his work. Blizzard comes to mind.... Sadly I think they would have just sued him.
These days you would be a fool to go to a publisher, when you could just do it yourself. Let them die, screw the "aaa" crowd. Even if you get bigger, you could use the likes of Steam, etc. The so called "Indies" of today are larger teams than most game productions in the 80ies, with some notable exceptions...
You're a naive clown. There was no "sense of honor" that prevented them from screwing the guy over. The decision was made in order to maximize their own profits while throwing him a couple scraps in order to avoid potential legal issues down the road. People have been ripping others off and stealing ideas for thousands and thousands of years.
Grest video, brought back a lot of memories covered a lot of games I hadn't known about.
Nicely done well made vid. Many memories, valuable insights...
I'd love a lengthier version, *"The Entire History of RPGs - Unabridged".*
RPGs are games that systematize the playing of a role.
Many games will let you play a role, but seldom have intricate systems around playing that role. For instance, many games let you fight enemies, but only RPGs take into account how strong and dexterous your character is, how much experience he has using his weapon and how much battle experience he has in general.
Many games might depict your character trying to talk themselves out of a situation, but only an RPG will let the player do the talking, and perhaps even make your chances of success based on how charismatic and intelligent your character is.
So on and so forth. RPGs aren't just games where you play a role, they're games that try to have systems around the playing of roles
The inclusion of systems is important. It's why I'm so annoyed by people who claim games like Cyberpunk aren't RPGs because they don't have enough narrative choice. Narrative choice was never the sole defining element of the genre, only people who take the words "role-playing" at face value think that. You need stats of some sort.
@@Sazed0 or people who argue that something like Skyrim doesn't count as an RPG because it strayed away from traditional tabletop mechanics and was too streamined. Skyrim is a game where you play as a dragon blooded force of nature, and the gameplay systems reflect that.
so a better name would be Systematic Role Playing Game?
@@chefman134 I don't know. Skyrim, as many modern RPG-like games, is action based.
The true RPG:s were turn based and depended only on tactical skill and a bit of randomness (luck, the dice).
Also, classic TSR turn based games often were built upon fellowships, like in "Lord of the Rings", were you often is in control of a group of people, 6 being the most common.
To me a very large part of core RPG gameplay is the strategical decisions in combining the different types of characters with different skillsets that made up the group of followers and then also the tactical choices how they were used in a fight.
But that has been a debate since the first non-turn-based games appeared with more action focus and less strategy focus.
Not that the more action-focused single player (or player plus companions) are bad.
It is just a different mix of genres to me, that still is fun, but I feel that it is more about FPS-action with some RPG elements ass add-ons and not a game where the strategy and choices you make is in focus.
One of my favorite "mixed genre" games is actually Deus-Ex, the original one. I think the "choice-depending" games where a choice you make will have game-story changing consequences further on, is the most interesting type. But also the one that it is the hardest to nail for developers.
@@Magnus_Loov Morrowind still had dice rolls-to-hit even though it was visualized as FPS action
and I'm old enough to have been there for the whole ride.. my favorite videogame genre and a NeverKnowsBest docu video, going to enjoy this one I'm sure. Favorite PC game of all time - Tes II Daggerfall, favorite game of all time period, Final Fantasy 2/4 with Rosa and Cecil.
Good choice brother
I have a special place in my heart for Daggerfall, seeing as it was my first true RPG on a PC at the time. Before that was just playing Wizardry 7 on old school computers. But I think Morrowind is still my fave by a narrow margin. Daggerfall on the other hand is just so huge, I never beat it, yet I can still go and play it and feel enthralled. One day, I might even make it to the ending. XD
I'm 40 years old so I was fortunate enough to have been around most of the history of these games as well, this video was a huge nostalgia trip for me. Btw great choice of games, Daggerfall blew my mind when it came out and so did the early FF games
I wonder who here in this thread isn't in their early 40's. For me, I've always loved the Gold Box games. Curse of the Azure Bonds might be my favorite old-school game.
But to be honest, the Witcher 3 is probably my favorite game of all time now.
@@jw6588 witcher 3 is probably the best rpg of the last 15 years for me. CDPR made their magum opus, I enjoyed the first two games as well.
I however dislike modern rpgs with their "oh look another map icon to do some activity" every 10 feet... it ruins games in so many ways for me, and is one of the things I disliked about witcher 3.
My first dip into hardcore RPSs was Ultima3/Temple of Apshai and I loved them! I was a little kid at the time but the addiction was heavy! Moved onto Alternate Reality: The City/The Dungeon (Fantastic games way ahead of their times!) , Ultimas, Bards Tales, and Gold Box collection. I played all of the "Pool" style games to the end. Crying shame that the Temple of Elemental Evil engine was used for more modules. I'd still be playing them to this day. It was such an underrated game! This was a fantastic video and gave me some leads for some of the few games I missed from developers I love! Thank you for all the hard work!
Really amazing job. Thx for the effort.
You're work is incredible and mind blowing. Video games have been around for decades and I'm feeling like they're just not starting to be studied and appreciated. Please keep up all your hard work.
Great video. Small nitpick: The original Final Fantasy II on the NES was the first game in the series to remove "character creation". It should be noted that character creation in that series is surprisingly traditional, and you can find it even in it's most recent entries. The Job System would be introduced after FFII for FFIII, and take the base jobs from the original Final Fantasy and just run with it. By FFV the job system had become even more advanced. This underlying class system would find different permutations throughout the series. Materia from FFVII would essentially allow you change the function of a character on-the-fly, a concept it's Remake would just run with by adding a weapon upgrade system that essentially funneled characters into literal different builds. FFVIII practically allowed you for better or worse to program the _literal functions_ of your characters stats and even actions in battle. And while FFX's progression was linear, try playing the international sphere grid system because that's a wild fun time.
I know it'd be daunting: But I'd recommend you make that JRPG video. The more I've learned about JRPG history, especially pre-famicom history, the more the entire genre comes into focus. It would be difficult, but I think it's something that would be incredibly beneficial. What is obvious to me now is that there's a lot of misconceptions on even the basic history of RPG's from Japan and it's importance cannot be overstated. Like, Balders Gate 3 is my favorite game this year. But I know my appreciation of the genre wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for these games. I find there's more overlap beyond selecting dialog options or a medieval fantasy setting that we've sorta collectively not noticed.
The problem with making a JRPG video is how much important and influential information and games are locked behind a language barrier. Tengai Makyo is an example of a highly influential game that has not even received a fan translation until recently. It is very daunting and I only know as much as I do because of a random link to a Japanese website, Jeremy Parish and Famidaily. It is very hard to find this stuff
A lot of JRPG info is locked behind language barriers. Tengai Makyo for example is a highly influential JRPG that did not get a translation until a few months ago. Only historians and nerds like RndStranger actually know this history due to knowing Japanese. There’s websites, but whenever I post the name of those websites my comment gets deleted
Never does have a retrospective on the final fantasy series specifically you may enjoy. The largest barrier to a jrpg history is a language one and with large amounts of print and web records being even more difficult to source properly without speaking the language I have a feeling that Never wouldn't been satisfied with what he would reasonably be able to produce on the topic. Hopefully someday he'll be pulling down enough money to hire research staff for such a project
@@Doombacon yeah the only info I can find is auto translations of Japanese websites for gaming. One thing I find hilarious is the reception of Wizardry. In the west the first 3 games are considered outdated and the last 3 games are excellent, and in Japan the first 3 games are masterpieces, and the last 3 games are kusoge. It’s insane
While you're technically right about FF2 not having character creation, the characters were still pretty much blank slates. Firion could be built as a mage, a swordsman, a healer, an archer, etc. without any limitations. While it didn't have the traditional creation at the beginning of the game, you kind of continued to create and shape your characters throughout the game.
FF4 was the first game to not have really any input in how your characters developed. Cecil can only be a Dark Knight/Paladin. He can only use swords, and his stats and skills will always develop the same way. So even if this video's claim wasn't technically true from a mechanical perspective, I think it is true with regard to discussion of evolving trends in RPGs away from sandboxes and more toward structured narratives with defined characters.
Great video, I do love a long form deep dive
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Thanks for making this video and adding the time stamps. I'm only a few minutes in but it already looks like a VERY fun and informative video to watch, I'm very excited to watch it. Love these types of videos. Subscribed with bell and liked. 👍♥
Wow, can't imagine the amount of research and effort put into it.
Should be included as course material for any game design course!
Yes that's true and highly appreciated! The only thing that's off is that he didn't mention Rogue Trader (from Owlcat Games) at the end.. it stands out, not only because it's the first WH40k RPG , complex and very faithful to the lore but also because of the combat and nested skill system..
1:33:30 .... "In their place came new names like Bethesta, Bioware and Blizzard" ... Funny how the wheel turns and history repeats itself
lol was thinking the exact same thing
Great vid! Unlike most 3 hrs~ long content, I watched yours in one go not missing a thing
Absolutely loved this! Great work!
Thanks for this, Ultima IV was my first RPG and I grew up looking longingly at advertisements for The Bard's Tale and Pool of Radiance in magazines like Byte and Nibble. I feel that computer gaming has trouble properly acknowledging it's foundational titles as the focus is so often on what's currently popular. It can be hard for younger people to go back and play these games with the same set of eyes as a lot of what made these games special has become part of the common fabric of gaming. It's really a time and a place in danger of being lost.
11:30 : "We create worlds" was the actual slogan of origin systems (Ultima-series)
Bethesda didn't create VATS. That system was born in Fallout 1, you just never had the dextrerity to use it.
Gotta put enough agility points in for that kinda build, but it’s so worth it.
@@Cheyne_TetraMFG its a game changer, an entire mechanic hidden if you don't have the stats.
I'm assuming you're talking about 'Targeted Shots' and 'Agility' :)
@@pomelomarino7710 honestly I kind of love that. It’s like you’re secretly rewarded when you build your character differently. My favorite is low INT dialogue, that shit is hilarious.
@@Cheyne_TetraMFG intelligence 1 is something else
Finally listen to all this. Very good video. I hope you pick more niche interesting topics in depth. I will now catch up on all your works.
26:23 most RPGs of this time were technically dungeon crawlers
Thats because most TTRPGs at the time were also technically dungeon crawlers, or that is the key reason people played them. You should look into the OSR scene and see why they like dungeon crawling, it is interesting, particularly when you compare it to what dnd is today, what these early CRPGs are and what CRPGs are today.
"Old School Renaissance" - never heard that before. But interesting. Thanks for the tipp.
I got into OSR about 5 years ago, and it awakened in me a love I didn't Know I had for TTRPGS. I always thought they were close to what I wanted, but never quite scratched that itch. Never realized I just needed to go back to Basic/0e
Dungeon crawlers were easier to make, cheaper.
@@paulodelima5705 In what way?
@@joel6376 They cost less money do make compared to other types of RPGs.
Here's a fun fact about Ultima VIII: the main character is also in Dungeon Keeper 1, it's the avatar!
The intro for BG3 @ 2:37:00 was hype AF. What a great video!
This was absolutely fantastic! Thank you so so much!