Toroidal propeller vs 3D printed EDF
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ค. 2023
- EDF files: www.printables.com/pl/model/7...
People turn everything into a toroidal propeller these days but how good and quiet is a 3D-printed toroidal EDF?
My article about toroidal propellers: indystry.cc/toroidal-propelle...
Thrust stand: www.instructables.com/Brushle...
Snapmaker Artisan: snapmaker.sjv.io/15Q4Xz
Parts:
Motor: amzn.to/3POZw0n
ESC: amzn.to/3rpmZes
RC: amzn.to/3O5Mp9H
Indystry: indystry.cc/
Patreon: / nikodembartnik - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Here you can find the files for my EDF: www.printables.com/pl/model/791122-3d-printed-toroidal-edf
No, it was crap and above all, pointless.
Next is do a comparison between these propellers and a newer research tubercles or bionic propeller.. I tried finding on TH-cam no one made a homemade video on it yet..
The point of toroidal propeller is to decrease/spread the harmful vortices that form at the blade tips. Proper EDF has practically no space between the blade tips and the duct wall so vortices have nowhere to form. So toroidal ducted fan does not make sense
and? its a cool experiment.
@@PennyEvolusSome of out here trying to learn dude. I think the commenter did a good job of enlightening some to the practical usage of toroidal props. I agree that it was a cool experiment but I’m also grateful for the comment that can provide additional information.
@@BadPracticeAutomation he was being very rude about it tho and insinuating that the video was a waste of time
@@PennyEvolushe wasn't being rude, he was pointing out the fact the experiment isn't the most accurate. and give some viewers an idea of what the difference is in between those two propellers
@@PennyEvoluscry about it
Putting the test and results aside for a moment, what really delights me is seeing bright young people like this doing great things with their time and energy. Well done to Nikodem and everyone like him.
Cześć Nikodem, coraz ciekawsze a zarazem bardzo profesjonalne tematy poruszasz , tak trzymaj !
The demos, so far, are radially-fixed pitch. Since you're 3D printing each one, try experimenting with a radially-profiled pitch. You will achieve a better stall response and a wider, linear-region in the thrust-speed, response-curve... as you account for the changes in tangential prop speed, from hub to tip. A good starting point, is to assume decreasing-pitch as radius increases. This allows for the tangentially faster portion of each blade to create less turbulence and efficiently scoop air.
I really like your videos. You already got really good advice. I look forward to the next video. Good luck!!!
The gap between the shroud and the propeller blade seems to be pretty big. That lowers the performance quite a bit as a vortex can form there. Other than that, good job!👍
Additionally toroidal tip geometry interferes with the ducts lowering efficiency, Perhaps there is an optimal design for a ducted toroidal propeller
Interesting tests! One thing to also consider is that an EDF on a vehicle doesn’t normally see incoming air at 0mph. If it’s on an aircraft, it’ll be seeing air at flight speed, so the necessary pitch changes. Racing RC planes often have such aggressive pitch that the props sound terrible and don’t generate much thrust until they get into higher speed air
Interesting observation, haven't even thought about that. I am planning to build a small drone based on a single EDF that is kind of similar to a rocket and it is stabilised and controlled with flaps underneath the EDF. BPS space build something like this a while ago and it looks like a complicated and challenging project - a lot you can learn while building that!
Great video as always - but make sure you explain what initialisms/acronyms stand for. I have no idea what EDF is and it is hard to even understand what your video is about without you providing that info.
I loved how you said "propeller" Thanks for the video. Keep it up!
I'm a big fan of this video 😂. Looking forward to seeing more
I think the toroidal shapes you generated were suboptimal and would need further tuning. Better shapes are likely more soft organic shapes. The key benefit of these toroidal propellers as far as I have seen is when they operate at low to medium thrust and the efficiency drops off compared to standar propellers towards the high end of thrust. I am not at all surprised of these results. Neat to see non the less
You have committed proper science
Did you calculate efficiency as grams thrust per Watt? That would be more interesting to me that just pure thrust.
Did you do the same test without the duct? Also be aware of ductless propeller systems including stators near the fan (instead of contra rotating fan). Ty
Great experiment, kudos
Use resin printer for smoother details, or use cf pla from Hatchbox etc for hiding layer lines. Also use resin mixed with starch to coat, cure with UV to hide layers
I appreciate your efforts.... Great results ❤
Thank you so much!
The Best example i've seen of this new toroidal prop is underwater in propulsion mode. It moves almost twice as far with the same amount of power as the old school prop. It's a game changer and that's is something you'll believe soon.
Looks like the normal with more blades has more thrust, maybe the Toroidal needs more blades? Also what about the toroidal tilt/Pitch factor vs the normal. Would a toroidal with say 8 blades be possible? No idea. You really need a fluid dynamics model (MatLab?) of the toroidal to play with. Very nice work! Are toroidal blades suitable for Jet engines?
Great idea!
And if you use a toroidal screw without a casing? What will be the thrust?
Just a little question :
When measuring effective thrust, did you take into account that as the edf's center isn't at the fixing point of the strength gage, as it is further, the lever increases and the measured force doesn't represent the real thrust
Did you also log input watts vs output thrust?
For a fixed thrust value you set, can you vary the propeller radius and measure the full frequency spectrum again? I wonder what size the propellers need to be to have the dB for all frequencies to be less than some set value. Then you could increase the thrust and vary the radius all over again and see the frequency spectrum. Then you can make a 3D plot of thrust vs radius vs dB (max) or dB (average) for the spectrum.
The best thing about toroidal props is that they're more structurally viable for 3d printing. That's really about it.
The 1 most interesting prop would have beeen... a 2-bladed toroidal prop.
You probably could have printed the props in ABS and then easily acetone smoothed them.
All your results need to be correlated with power.
How about trying a standard propeller with a ring on the outside that bind the blades, and prevent the air to escape outside the blade rotation? I'm not English so it is somewhat difficult to put my mind picture in words. It should be clear what I try to say.
Look into the Tubercle effect and the Siemens low noise comb design inspired by owls. Very good projects to 3d print AND combine with the toroidal propeler.
Thank you
What about rim propellers?
Hey, thanks for the video! Really Interesting tests. Maybe to improve it further you could try reducing the gap between the propeller and the duct to make the duct more effective? One way I can think of doing this would be to print the propeller slightly too large to be able to spin without rubbing, then just let it run slowly until it shaves enough material off of itself to spin freely
I admire your intellect great video...
i am more interest with which have more thrust efficiency if use it on plane. hope you make more test and have more info. thank you !
Where did you get that collapsible work bench? It's sweet!
I thought the toridal pulls from more flow from outside its area. Try doing the experiment without the enclosure.
If you want to increase thrust you have to integrate the propeller in the turbine by changing the design of the turbine.
You shouldnt have any gape between the inner side and the propeller, this design decrease air pressure under the propeller. The best is to create a channel to let the propeller spin freely, like being slightly shorter in diameter size than the propeller and making an inner section to integrate the propeller's movement in the inner side of the turbine.
I think your angle is too aggressive on the toroidal propellers - maybe dial them back to no more than 45⁰ at the tips? Also, if you can increase that angle as you get closer to the prop hub it should move air more efficiently as well - just look for Sharrow boat propellers as an example. Best of luck!
Maybe you could try one of these Archimedes logarithmic screws that everybody talks about for wind turbines
How many degree is the blade toroidal?
Nice.
If you were able to test these same designs under speed or in a wind tunnel, you'd have different outcomes... Mabe blow a leaf blower into the intake to see what happens.
Some would cavatait more, others less. Some would be more efficient based on inlet speed.
Keep testing!
Sir, you are designing stuff and making it at home and doing as close to scientific tests that you can. With the tools you have available on a home budget.
This was an awesome video. And you were able to not only display differences between your test samples but were able to highlight the more minute differences.
I'd like to see more of your videos.
And as a thought on the results and figuring out how to make an improvement. My personal opinion is to start looking at the propeller basics. Surface area and pitch. Followed by weight. The goal to take a commercially available EDF turbine blade, figure out the surface area and pitch to get a baseline volume per revolution of the prop. Then design a terroidal prop with the exact same volume per revolution. And make it lighter than the commercially avaliable prop.
Volume per revolution gives you a baseline number that also gives you baseline drag that the electric motor is put under. If rotating mass is identical and volume per revolution is identical then your electric motor efficiency should be close to identical. As in amp draw and rpm should be identical.
Eliminating the variables in this way should allow you to get better data on thrust and decibel levels when comparing the 2.
I use to build and fly r/c foam board construction aircraft and indoor gymnasium flyers. The electronics were the hardest part to get an efficient and light setup. And then quadcoptors showed up and all the skill in getting something tiny to fly and fly it well turned into who could afford the newest and better quad. Then the government crackdowns on the hobby happened and I didn't pick up a remote until recently.
For context 6dB is double the power. 10dB sounds twice as loud
Are the two types of propellers the same weight?
In principle I like the idea of such a test. But why outside with extra wind? And how often did you charge that battery? If you didn't charge it again and again then the battery charge will make a big difference. How about doing this indoors with a power supply like you have on your bench?
That was my thought… he said so he could test from a distance but he’s next to it the entire time.
The thing that most people don't get is that toroidal propellers are designed to be efficient when there is no sleeve/duct - see use on boat motors.
To compare apples to apples, compare the thrust of the conventional and toroidal propellers without a sleeve/duct; a good test would be on quad copter droids.
I actually believe these are not toroidal props as a toroidal prop has a curved edge along the outside instead of just being slanted sections of multiple tubes arranged around a center point.
Yes
From the video, these propellers do not seam to be optimally designed. If they where, you should get much improved performances.
That was really interesting. Now I know that if i want want to reduce noise, toroidal is the way to go
I'd love to see the difference on the actual fan.
Same diameter, same number of blades. Which one will draw less power from the AC outlet?
So let's make it in my next video :)
Wouldn't the shroud severly hinder the toroidal propeller? The Shroud is a plus only for the regular propellers and putting a toroidal is like adding a second set of plane that will work as an anti blade.The attack angle for the toroidal is going to be slightly different on the tips. Try adding more space between the shroud and the tips of the toroidal blade.
Severely hinder the toroidal propeller? No!
So how are you going to change the pitch as needed to optimize performance ?
why didnt you just do the acetone smoothing? Or whatever chemical they use for evaporative smoothing
Im just curious how it perform in winged aircraft like rc plane, I know it was built for boats and drones but, just how?
So far, in ALL the Normal vs Torridal prop videos that I've watched, the Torridal is always quieter, but no one compares the thrust and power used by the normal prop or fan running at reduced throttle that matches the torridal noise level.
The toroidal is always less efficient and requires more power to reach the same thrust
Nice vid thanks ❤
Would have been cool to see the bought edf compared to the ones you made..
A good idea would be to do a noise test indoors without no prop installed to find out how much of the noise is coming from the motor. I suspect the duct is acting to magnify the motor noise and most of the noise is probably coming from that. But that would be a bit off since the motor won't be under load. Still would be interesting.
You need a motor to fly. So testing without a motor is nonsense.
@@MrSummitville I didn't say test it without a motor. I said test it without the prop so it is the motor only.That way you can get an idea of how much noise the prop itself is generating.
It's a really interesting test. I think it's a good idea to compare thrust/watt + the decibel level at the same amount of thrust (because if a prop got a lower efficiency, it's not surprising the noise level got lower at same rpm or watt).
I wonder about 1 thing, all EDFs seem not to consider by design: The efficiency is close related to the gap between the tips of the propeller and the case of the EDF. The more you scale down, the harder/impossible is getting the tolerances right.
So why not reducing the gap between the wing tips and the case? -> Let the inner side of the case be a part of the propeller and rotate and the outer part of the case behing fixed.
Somewhat the same idea that I try to say. You have an interesting idea there also. That will get rid of the dangerously small gap. The inlet can probably be just a little smaller than the outside diameter of the blades, or the same, but just in front of it. Maybe that will cause another problem again.
the next step is to compare a thrust of all propellers at the similar noise - level!!!!
That was a successful test. Well done. $
Toroidal propellers are made for open fans, it doesn't make sense to use them in ducted fans.
Toroidal propellers are solving problems like tips vortexes etc. that only exist in open fans, and you have other problems with ducted fans like how to keep gap minimum etc.
Does everyone okay with the toroidal propeller pitch?
the idea for using toroidal
is to avoid the need of a tunnel
The real question is: where can I find that quick fold out workbench???
Good start, but there are a bunch of parameters and conditions to get a good comparison, keep up the good work sir:)
So, what are these parameters and conditions?
P s I am just going from my memory , :)
Hello I did type in a deasent and proper response with know parameters and such to be helpful but I don't see it not sure what I may have done wrong , but little busy for a bit and to busy to type it out again I suck at typing ,
So basically you compare fans with different rotor fillings and different pitch angles of blades. In engineering practice, you should calculate this parameters to eliminate drag on main operating mode of fan. And you just do nothing, print random mill for airflow and compare it... wow.
That thing is NOT a toroidal propeller. Its just a lookalike.
If one wont to make a comparison, it would be reasonable to use the right thing.
Also there is that argument from @hlavaatch mentioning the problem with the blade tips.
Is it possible to set the rpm and, then, test the propeller? Maybe, … use an oversized, high torque motor like grinder. I think the small motors are set to a certain rpm but if your thrust, propeller blade angle, is different, you will get different thrust because the motor will spine at a higher or lower rpm.
Ounce, rpm is set, then tweak the design. Otherwise, you will be guessing.
I did see a boat test where they tested efficiency of propellers by watts used, but I think efficiency of a motor depends on sizing the perfect propeller for the motors output.
If you refrain from using domain specific abbreviations it will make your content more accessible to folks not sharing the same lingo / focus.
Yes, repeat without the duct! A ducted fan with the least gap between fan and duct is the most efficient as you can see on large jet planes. Compare toroidal to a standard open propeller.
You can reduce the noise of the fan by making the spaces between the blades different. Balancing it becomes a challenge but Airbus Helicopters has done it with their fenestrome tail rotors.
I have a concept design for suction propeller aimed to push the limits of dry thrust, I dont have a 3D printer but I do 3d modeling and designing in rhino for industrial designers. I wish you look at the design and try its thrust.
would be interesting to see the difference in denser liquid than air, like in water what would be the difference in power to trust difference then?
Errr .... those aren't toroidal propellers, just some silly angled extrusions.
That aside, as others have already pointed out: ducted fans don't have the kind of tip vortices that toroidal props are meant to reduce.
Toroidal propellers might be useful for drones, tho. Many models have "ducted" props for safety reasons and with the large gaps between the blades and the duct walls they're often right in the spot where the ducting doesn't add any efficiency but increases noise.
What about a silencer?
wery cool saludos desde Venezuela
How about check the motor only sound without propeller. You may estimate noise which is generated by propellers. Anyway good jobs!
You can't fly without a motor. Therefore, you must test with a motor.
Pretty cool
Thanks
Birds have lots of feathers to decrease noises and air resistance. You have to make the blades' surface be seemed like bird wings.
Share a link, u hv 100s of video s, I want to see padestal Fan experiment
Now try Tubercle effect blades please! :)
The thing that gives a toroidal propeller it's advantage is that there's no edge where high and low flow regimes can mix to create eddy currents, which is already minimized for the EDF. An open fan would be a different matter, but that's already been shown...
My guess would be ducted fans are not a good application for toroidal designs as the tip losses are negated by being in the duct
Hola Nikodem, buen trabajo felicitaciones, puedes realizar turbinas ?, y si es así, te invito a desarrollar algo realmente revolucionario e histórico.
Hello I typed in a comment to help not criticize about proper testing but I don't see it it listed actual things that are part of true constants and such , there are many things that need to be done for actually getting real test results
A very good presentation ✝️🇺🇸😀
Sanding propellers is, like you said, not really practical. But what you can do is print a part with ABS and give it what is called an Acetone Vapour Bath. That will give it a smooth surface finish...
🤔Okay now this has got me thinking what a toroidal fan blades on a rotary subwoofer would do for it.🌐✌
Weird question: What kind of glasses are you wearing (blue rim with metal temples?)
Good weird question! Unfortunately, I don't know, these are not some fashion fancy branded glasses, I bought them at the local optician because I liked the design but there is no logo,nor any name on them (which is one of the reasons why I like them)
First thing I'd suggest would be a resin 3d printer. You'll get much higher resolution, smoother surfaces and stronger parts.
FDM is rubbish for anything near engineering tolerances.
i think its good you only use 3s, impellers (not propellers for EDF´s) are AMP hungry and you can very easy burn the motor trying different impellers on full throttle.
i am also pretty sure the 3d printed impellers was flexing to much to give proper thrust for it´s design. i think you might had a bit lower thrust due to impellers flexing. at peek RPM.
4:04 you said just for fun or just for fan? ;)
Wow now i know thanks
An ultra thin toroidal propeller would drastically increase wind speed and efficiency.
Compare standard blade with ducting to cycloidal blade without ducting, and reverse.
You could messure the sound in sone with also take the annoyance in to account.
It would be great if you could design a significantly quieter and less harsh noise for a propeller design for drones!
The comparison here is flawed because you are comparing both at max power but they need to be compared at the same thrust. At the same thrust the much more efficient standard props are probably making less noise.
Maybe your toroidal designs are not so close to mobius strip like geometry which is more efficient than standard propellers.
lols I wish my bench was this tidy
Ducted fan design adresses the same issue like the idea of toroidal props. Better "control! of blade tip votices. The toroidal props for drones that appeared to day are all crap in means of doing efficiency better. Often marine props are cited, but they look very different than the ones for drones.
If you take a design, meant to optimize free air operation, and it does not because of severe design flaws, what do you expect from such propeller in a duct? Yes, less efficiency.
You need a servo tester, that leaves the receiver and transmitter out of testing