Cooling Fan: Toroidal vs Normal
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ค. 2023
- The fan I used: amzn.to/3KdOP3r
Printed with this printer: snapmaker.sjv.io/9g70NE
My favorite printer: shorturl.at/hxCQG
My fan design: www.printables.com/pl/@Nikode...
Toroidal propeller on a $25 cooling fan? I am testing the differences to see if this is a feasible idea!
Check out my CNC machine: indystry.cc/about-indymill/
Indystry: indystry.cc
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Check out my other toroidal experiments in this video: th-cam.com/video/A_V3tQ8zZ4s/w-d-xo.html
Make odd number of fan blades bro
Get a card scraper. It'll make post processing 23 times faster.
I like the toroidal noise more
Ale się wystraszyłem, gdy zacząłeś mówić po polsku XD
Dude, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I studied this type of thing for a few months to build a homemade wind turbine, and this is much more complicated than just printing the propeller.
I don't want to write a long text, but I recommend you research the blades of wind power plants to understand what I'm talking about (angles, degrees, stiffness, thickness) it's incredible how even a little dirt on a blade can ruin all harmony and balancing, and generate noise.
A tip: remove the protective cage during the tests, as it creates turbulence, and also try to get data on the noise that the engine generates to be able to have accurate information only about the propellers.
Hope he sees this ↑
Is it better to have no fan?
@@HolahkuTaigiTWFormosanDiplomatif it had no fan it definitely going to be a lot quieter
Write the long text. I want to learn.
@@than7831I’m thinking about this when I get my pc
The noise from the toroidal fan was a very soothing white noise. Now you have me thinking about replacing my go-to-sleep fan.
Same thought... Seems more pleasant
Rather than soothing, i bet it is way easier to mask because of the low pitch.
Get a ceiling fan instead. Sooooo much more comfortable and silent!
More expensive, requires professional installation or knowledge to install, and it's not really equivalent in function to a fan meant to help for sleep. A ceiling fan could not compare to a box fan on a table right next to my bed
@@SnowFaceChamcham Box Fan was my go to sleep TH-cam video for a long time. 😃
If you remove the safety cage you will get a very noticable sound reduction, as it generates a lot of annoying tones from turbulence. Obviously though, don't do this with kids or pets around.
Also is such a dense mesh it mess with airflow
Will be ok where I am where I don't have kids nor pets that can hit blades. 😊
I actually do this with most of this type of fans for this exact reason. Since the motor doesn't have much torque and the plastic doesn't weigh much to carry lots of inertia it doesn't hurt much if you accidentally touch it.
that's why you can't beat dyson
@@howardlam6181 Dyson's are actually quite a bit louder when controlled for the same airflow
The video is 10 months ago but I'm seeing so many new comments, algorithm is blessing this guy
It's hot right now in many countries and so many videos about ventilation and the likes pop here and there.
The noise from the toroidal blade was deeper and quite soothing I thought. Happy to have it on at night while sleeping. Nice video.
Your rotor is not balanced
Yeah, absolutely OP
Where there is a problem there be MORE THAN ONE question!
@@Neptunade hmmm! But the only things I can think of is the unbalanced rotor. Which may be due to poor mass distribution on impeller (3d printing imperfections). Also, if the design has critical speeds at the rpm he is operating! Anything else you can think about mate?
@@user-vc1ox4uv7e the infill could not be centered, since I dont know how to center the infill properly, the easiest way to probably balance it is by drilling a hole adding some weight.
Doesn't made by professionals
An additional consideration about your father's perception of the noise level. He is older (but younger than I am) and probably has more hearing loss compared to someone younger. Hearing loss typically is in the high frequencies. It seemed to me that your spectrum plots showed a greater reduction in the high frequencies for the toroidal fan measurements. The difference between the two fans would seem to be less for someone with higher frequency hearing loss because the relative perceived level of the high frequency content would be lower than the mid and low frequencies heard.
Are his dad's ears covered from sound too?
My grandmother, before she passed, unintentionally demonstrated this for me: she had a dryer whose belt was slipping and squeaking. We were standing next to it, and I asked "do you hear that?" and she could not. That friction could result in a fire. We replaced it, and learned that as one ages, the reduction in sensory inputs can lead to dangerous conditions.
yep, the conclusion being: test on mum, or sister ;)
The problem with dad's perception is the _time_ required to change the prop! It is difficult to compare such a similar sounds with the time gap between the sessions. Compare this to video: two patterns immediately one after another several times - very easy to hear the difference! (BTW, to me: the toroidal prop seems to have a more pleasant noise spectre)
@@michroz I'm an older gent and I agree - the toroidal fans sound was definitely shifted to lower frequencies, which is less annoying.
"It ain't perfect but its honest work" we going to mars with this one
Even though the results were the same, I feel that the standard fan had more of an annoying hiss and preferred the toroidal fan. I really enjoyed this video and your professional scientific method. The only thing missing is a cat :) I'm impressed with your command of English (but maybe it is your first language).Thanks for this video!
Nice, thanks! I've watched two dozen videos from different sources since the MIT paper came out. For me, yours most clearly and impressively showed (made audible) the difference between the two fan types. Same windpower, same power intake, same loudness level, but very much nicer frequencies. Thanks again!
The testing is very good but the fan shape is hard to get right.
If that’s the only conclusion you want to draw from that paper then sure, why not…
I have same fan, smoothed prop blade leading and trailing edges, took rear and front mesh guards off and huge improvement. About a 30 min job. (Watch your fingers, keep kids away)
An interesting thought: how much of the noise is air moving through the mesh in front of and behind the blade?
You could measure prop noise with and without screen, but for sure it will reduce ome noise. Air flow: Basically the same amount, exept from some air drawn in from aside, so removing front&rear screens hugely reduces the drag=noise and increases fan efficiency. Simple mod. No cost. Not finger fool proof. I never stuck finger in fan. But it may happen.
Toroidal's HF is desirable for me. Thanks from Colorado, nice project, video, test procedure, blind AB testing, script, audio and editing.
Thank you!
Dude, your toroidal fan is made with so soft material, make it from little sturdy material, I bet the looseness of material is making sound not the shape. Try different material or thick wall to avoid flexibility, even when you touched it with hand it feels like a jellybean.
Basically, the toroidal and original produced the same sound frequency pattern.
Judging by the graphs you showed, and considering their evolution over time, the pattern of frequencies and their volumes remains relatively constant around a certain range in vertical axis. If you inspect the range for each frequency and take the average of the values in that range in Y, for every point in X by separate, you make a Average_volume-Frequency graph, which seems to be the function over which the graph "fluctuates".
By comparing both graphs from the two fans, and assuming the scaling in X and Y is the same for both, then we can conclude basically both have:
* The same averageVolume-Frequency graph
* They both have the same volume
* The dispersion made by the toroidal has a standard deviation smaller than the original one.
So yes, for every single frequency, the toroidal fan makes less sound as it's standard devation of volume over time is smaller than the standard deviation of the original one.
This has the result of having a more "smooth" sound (as it doesnt vary too much from the mean) and slightly "quieter" (as it has ≈ mean but smaller deviation; this is, for a certain frequency, the maximum dB or volume archieve by the toroidal is always smaller than the maximum volume archieved by the original).
So yes, it's good and I think your model is better. However, it would be wise first to test wether the toroidal is secure, stable and cheaper to produce.
Repeating those tests on 'bare' blades, no front (and even no back) cover may eliminate noise from air hitting mesh. Sharpness of mesh (and poor finish) could contribute to the noise level. Great job anyhow 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
My thoughts too, the mesh affects airflow massively.
Old Fans do not have mesh cover
The toroidal definitely sounded less "aggressive". I also just remembered that Zipline made some weird asymetric fans to drastically reduce the noise of their drones.
Now I wonder if a similar although likely less drastic effect could be achieved, if you go with a 4 "blade" toroidal design but make slight changed between the 2 "blade" pairs.
Like giving one pair more pitch and the other a little less or making on pair's "rim" go more outwards and the other's more inwards, so the blade rings aren't completely circular, but slightly oval, with one pair being oval outwards and the other "sideways".
hmm
Its shape wasn't tweaked using any optimization process while regular fans are well known and were optimized for decades.
I like your work. Now I want a Toroidal fan for myself. I preferred the frequency of the noise form the toroidal fan vs the standard. the toroidal fan frequency was more calming than the higher frequency from the normal fan
Nice project, this has a potential to go viral, especially with the great looking thumbnail :)
But the brown noise is so calming 😭
It's still more professional than some "professionals", nice going
I appreciate that you're using professional equipment. Thank you for doing the science. I prefer the low hum of toroidal, gonna try to print my own.
You sir are answering questions that I have asked and never done the work. Thank you So Much!!
"If there is a problem can we fix it with a toroidal fan?"
This is the solution to all relationship problems.
That high frequency roll off made the toroid blade sound more soothing and less annoying.
So funny, love the humor. The expression about it not be perfect is new to me. I laughed. Your dad in the chair I laughed. I also learned about the point you made. Thank you for posting.
Great video, very interesting results.
The video production is superior! I love your content happy new year!
Your video production and presentation are getting better and better, it's good to see more of your personality and a more jovial approach. This one was too short though, we need more ! 🙂
Thank you!!!
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More ....
Kudos to anyone who can read that disclaimer in the middle without pausing!!
That was a great experiment buddy !
To think and try it out! You are truly a great engineer, kro up the great work
Thank you for sharing I enjoyed the deeper frequency of the toroidal fan alot
Straight to the point, good video
the toroidal fan is quieter also is somewhat less dangerous than extended sharp regular blades.
Personal experience (after years using different brands of desk fans) : old KDK fan blades have lower noise because they are flatter with wider blades, angle and curvature of the blades are important for lower noise and air speed and you need to find the balance between both factors, last thing ball bearings make a more power efficient fan than sleeve bearings, use graphite lubricant for better results.
I appreciate the honesty and diligence. Well done.
I know you didn't intend for this to be an analog harshnoise demo but, at around 2:20, you nailed it! 😄😄👍🏼
Good job... respect your efforts to test these. 😎🇦🇺
This propeller was created for greater efficiency in both noise and thrust. The problem is that it doesn't work in 3D printing, which means it's not that applicable to the general public and depends a lot on the manufacturing process. This is the umpteenth video I've seen of this experiment going wrong using plastic printers, which shows that this type of technology doesn't apply to them. The result is very different from what specialized companies achieve and it's clear that the result depends on the quality of the material and its smoothness, as well as the proper balance in the weight of the propeller, which I think is one of the great secrets of it all.
He did a pretty good job and presented some valuable data! I bet it can work as 3d printed, its just that we have to do a bunch of math to generate an optimized geometry for each application and rpm range. My gut tells me the angle of that propeller isnt great for this application but I dont want to do the work to prove it and suggest a solution.
@@brianmgs2006 It may not seem like it, but weight, smoothness and mass distribution have a huge influence on the performance of a propeller. In all the experiments I've seen on the Internet, these toroidal models never work. It's not just this case here, I've also seen people try to put these things on drones and the performance of the aircraft gets much worse. This technology has remained in the hands of those who created it and that hasn't changed yet...
THANK YOU for doing the power comparison. It's sort of a lurking variable and I wasn't expecting it to be addressed.
nice idea and tests :) I'm also sensitive to noise and was trying to come up with some quiet cooling for summer time awhile ago. I ended up creating and placing a table fan just in front of me - I used noctua S12A model - it's small but can do some pleasant cooling from such distance, and it can be dead quiet (it's one of the best performance/loudness fans you can buy) I typically use it at around 60% power (60% pwm duty to say exactly)
Hey look a this modified noctua fan :)
"Reverse ENGINEERING Noctua's mythical DESK FAN (Noctua NH-AAS) by major hardware"
th-cam.com/video/SIcjrMmXlCc/w-d-xo.html
I think a lot of the difference is about the pitch of the sound it makes. As people get older, the audible pitch level of what they cam hear changes (decreases I think), so you should use different test subjects with different age ranges and see what the results are
I love that every time I see toroidal fans, propellers, or whatever come up, the result is always, "they were only very slightly better," or "slightly worse".
Interesting test.
Since I found out that they exist, I was interested in trying them.
More since I read about its "benefits", but in practice, after seeing several reviews, I don't see those benefits, at least in air applications.
Although according to other publications that I saw, the best test scenario is water, in aquatic vehicles it improves engine performance and reduces turbulence.
Excellent work, I congratulate you.
Greetings from Argentina.
Did you consider testing without the protection metal frame? I have a feeling that most of noise is produced by the air hitting this structure.
I recently found you. That was awsome. thanks
There were two many uncontrollable variables in this experiment. The fact you've got it not worse then what was offered by a manufacturer is already amazing
This is the first video that I’ve seen of yours and you are doing an outstanding job! Love it! Subscribed 🔥🔥🔥
The toroidal does indeed produce less high-frequency sounds, which carry the most energy and thus have the most potential for aggravating hearing-loss when exposed to them for long periods of time.
okay i just watch 1 youtube short about fan exploding, and youtube be like here another fan video, now I'm in fan universe
This was a very well executed, detailed project👍🏻👌🏼
🤘🏼 Cool experiment! By the way, ceiling fans are not noisy (because the horizontal operation balances the blades) and they also circulate air much more efficiently.
“ it’s professional I promise “ 😊 love your personality 🤙🏽
The toroidal fan is not “more quiet” but what you’ve done is reduce the treble it makes to make it easier and less annoying to listen to. Which is why your dad didn’t notice much of a difference but instead noticed that the low end is louder than it was on the normal fan blades.
Can't imagine the frustration being hours into the printing and have it mess up over & over again!
Great job. Very interesting topic, but as a fellow tinkering enthusiast I have a couple of questions and suggestions. Firstly, why not ABS? It would be much easier to post process with an aceton fume treatment. Furthermore it would be much more rigid because your propeller looks way to wobbly. It means it could deform under lead in an undesirable way a ruin your rssults. Going further, a but more mass to the propeller could help too. Firstly, to balance it by removing some material, seconldly by negating vibrations from the motor and the swing mechanism if the fan. Additionally look different ways aviation industry combats stream dekamination. It nay help too. If I remember correctly, sometimes they use dents or grooves on rotary blades or wings to help with it.
Lastly, Keep on with it! Great project. Hope to see pt 2 😊
The sound of the Toroidal blades sounded better to me. Definitely could use the noise (hum) from those blades to relax and fall asleep.
It's not professional but it's honest work
I love it
I always wondered if you could apply the designs from 'The Fan Showdown' to a cooling fan. I'd be interested if the measurements would remain proportional or if it would change when applied to such a large and 'slow' moving fan.
I like the lower pitch of the toroidal sound
Nice work, I like more the sound of the toroidal propeller.
Try playing with the size of the toroidal propeller, for example make the diameter smaller or make the toroidal propeller more or less dense.
And the initial pitch near the hub, the pitch around the 'knots', the pitch when a blade is joined with another one, the blade thickness, the blade side profile, shape changes to improve the drag of its corners, ...
Awesome video! Wish i could afford to shovel money at you. Big up your dad too for his honest assessment.
Do you think te results had anything to do with the relatively flat profile of the propeller? Other toroidal propellers I've seen online appear to be a bit "deeper".
Thanks for this video, great work, it's not perfect but it's more than you think, thanks again and keep going! Cheers from South america!
If you want more air speed, you need to maybe make the blade pitch more aggressive. I don't know what it would be, and I imagine there is a point of diminishing returns (a 90 pitch would be useless). Also, more blades should lower the noise, and I think increase air flow as well. I just stumbled on your video this morning. Great delivery style, subscribed!
The shape of its corners are still what causes most noise.
KEEP DOING THIS TYP OF WORK
So now we know. Thanks for your hard work!
😀
YT engineers starter kit:
Hold your clipper mic in your hands
😄
I give you credit for doing this. I still like the sound of the original, but I also wear headphones and like the white noise to block others out :) Maybe I am just more used to that sound.
Toroidal fans mostly help with reducing high-pitched noise from vortexes at the blades' outer edges. The remainder of high-pitched noise is likely caused by the fan guard turbulence as others have already mentioned.
What would be the optimal toroidal propeller and how would that perform?🤔
Some noise is caused by the safety shrouds located for and aft of the blades, that saftey feature also reduces airflow. Building an enclosure with fewer restrictions, (but further away so that people still can't get hurt would increase airflow and decrease noise levels.
Amazing...what if u had more edges than what you currently have for the Toroidal fan?
Will it improve the air performance?
You covered your Dad's ears and asking him which one sounds more noisy. But its nice fun experiment. I like experiments that have fun aspect to it. Subscribed👍
Be carreful! You can't get performance due to the imbalance from production. simply get the balance after production. Differention will be came with balance!
Another video about thoroidal propellers did this.
Great work! The small differences in the test results suggests other factors are so important the fan design have little overall influence.
The air speed should have been measured without you or anything else inconsistent even behind the meter, and the meter should have a stand. I'm not saying the way you did it introduced significant error, just that it is a possibility.
The actual efficiency is not the same, and the power draw is unlikely to be exactly the same unless the fan regulates that to control speed. It's possible that power meter can't measure anything but pure resistive loads very accurately.
I recommend running each fan for some time and compare temperature of the motor and shaft. I done some experimenting myself, and found that inefficient blade designs made the motor and shaft significantly warmer, even with very small differences in power draw.
While those cages probably are cheap to produce, I suspect it was the main reason to why there were so little difference between very different fan designs. When I experimented I actually needed to replace my old fan, and I landed on a design with just two slim straight blades, and ditching the cage. Very low noise, very high airflow, without the cage. It actually takes a couple of seconds or so for it to build up the air flow around it that it needs to perform well. With the cage the slim two bladed fan is even worse than the original fan with the cage.
Слабо понимаю английский, но вижу отлично проделанную научную работу по испытаниям и с хорошей подачей материала. Продолжай свои работы в любом направлении. Тебя интересно слушать и смотреть.
There is a quieter design you could try, but it would be harder to pull off because it needs good balancing. They're the "zipline" silent propellers that use an offset blade design that is counter balanced to produce a lower frequency sound.
Amazing work.
At the tip of the toroidal blade, what would happen if holes were drilled to let the air escape the cupping of the air? Would this allow the blade to speed up with less resistance?
amazing study! thanks for sharing
Pretty cool man
This is going to change the electric fan industry for the better if not worse.
we don't need toroidal but adding diffuser on the wings works perfectly fine and drops sound quite a bit almost all metal bladed fans have that feature thus makes it more quieter while being more efficent
Cool experiment. One note though on the presentation: Do not move the microphone around while speaking. It changes the sound volume over time and can be distracting. Just clip it on your t-shirt and you are good to go.
Cool this has to be in all fans, including in the Macs.
God bless.
The lower tones of the toroidal fan in this case, at least to me, are less annoying.
I was hoping it would be less noisy though.
And actually, I have an idea for that maybe:
A while back, I watched a video talking about nature inspired technology.
Most importantly though, they were talking about propellers for boats and how to fix a few problems with commercially build propellers.
First, there was a certain problem that damaged the propeller in use, air pockets would damage the propeller over time.
And second, there was a problem with the noise of those propellers interfering with marine life.
To fix, or rather lessen these problems, they took whale fins as inspiration, specifically balaenoptera musculus or better known as the blue whale.
The ridges of these fins would create less air pockets that would damage the propeller, and the propellers made with them would also be less noisy.
I imagine that perhaps, a toroidal fan with ridges like that could be even less noisy too.
Or maybe a normal fan with ridges would work better, as I imagine designing a toroidal fan with such ridges might be... unstable, or hard to produce.
Well, this is just an idea and my thoughts, I hope this might help, if not, that's ok too :)
Have a great day, and stay curious!
The toroidal dampens the higher pitched noises, and if you ever walked into a server room, it's those darn high pitched noises that's driving people mad.
🇨🇦/🇺🇸... In all seriousness I ALWAYS just remove the front screen off of any fans I have. With plastic blades your fingers are still pretty safe and the rear screen still protects from the rear and the sides. Yes, you still may not wish to do that with babies and toddlers but other than that it is so save you can stop the fan with your tongue with no danger. Seriously. Buy a fan with the good ol'-fashioned teardrop shaped blades and stay away from the more "aggressive" shapes. They aren't usually as efficient and are noisier.
About the noise have you tried make blades of more volume (in shape of a water drop) with wider round intake side and sharp thin outtake?
I personally liked the toroidal fan but, admittedly, I wasn't wearing headphones. It was the deeper and fuller sound that I liked. It sounded more like the soothing sound of a propeller from an old US bomber
I preferred the toroidal noise, but as the speed increased the improvement reduced, I suspect this is due to the inherent imperfections of a 3D printed part, a properly balanced injection moulded part would likely be a clear win for noise
Hello, it seems like an interesting idea. I like it a lot. But how much does it really affect the air volume transfer? And it certainly consumes more energy, isn't it?
The original fan sounds like boiling oil on a frying pan and the toroidal fan sounds like a crowd of people in a train station
Lower and higher frequencies have different penetration properties on surfaces. So you can hear a muffled bass booming from speakers through walls, but high-pitched sounds bounce off the walls and stay in the room more. There are real differences, so it is not just personal preference.
Keep going!
I seemed to like the lower frequency with the toroidal fan.
I wonder if adding tubercles and a serrated trailing edge can make these even quieter! The sound generated by the toroid shape is definitely more pleasant imo
consider adding more concentric blades to toroidal blade? will it do any good?
Good work!
Personally I like the lower tone of the toroidal blades, and would swap my Rowenta fan's default blade with one if it was affordable to do so.