Dude, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I studied this type of thing for a few months to build a homemade wind turbine, and this is much more complicated than just printing the propeller. I don't want to write a long text, but I recommend you research the blades of wind power plants to understand what I'm talking about (angles, degrees, stiffness, thickness) it's incredible how even a little dirt on a blade can ruin all harmony and balancing, and generate noise. A tip: remove the protective cage during the tests, as it creates turbulence, and also try to get data on the noise that the engine generates to be able to have accurate information only about the propellers.
More expensive, requires professional installation or knowledge to install, and it's not really equivalent in function to a fan meant to help for sleep. A ceiling fan could not compare to a box fan on a table right next to my bed
If you remove the safety cage you will get a very noticable sound reduction, as it generates a lot of annoying tones from turbulence. Obviously though, don't do this with kids or pets around.
I actually do this with most of this type of fans for this exact reason. Since the motor doesn't have much torque and the plastic doesn't weigh much to carry lots of inertia it doesn't hurt much if you accidentally touch it.
@@Neptunade hmmm! But the only things I can think of is the unbalanced rotor. Which may be due to poor mass distribution on impeller (3d printing imperfections). Also, if the design has critical speeds at the rpm he is operating! Anything else you can think about mate?
@@VENKATANARASIMHAHEGDE1RV19ME11 the infill could not be centered, since I dont know how to center the infill properly, the easiest way to probably balance it is by drilling a hole adding some weight.
An additional consideration about your father's perception of the noise level. He is older (but younger than I am) and probably has more hearing loss compared to someone younger. Hearing loss typically is in the high frequencies. It seemed to me that your spectrum plots showed a greater reduction in the high frequencies for the toroidal fan measurements. The difference between the two fans would seem to be less for someone with higher frequency hearing loss because the relative perceived level of the high frequency content would be lower than the mid and low frequencies heard.
My grandmother, before she passed, unintentionally demonstrated this for me: she had a dryer whose belt was slipping and squeaking. We were standing next to it, and I asked "do you hear that?" and she could not. That friction could result in a fire. We replaced it, and learned that as one ages, the reduction in sensory inputs can lead to dangerous conditions.
The problem with dad's perception is the _time_ required to change the prop! It is difficult to compare such a similar sounds with the time gap between the sessions. Compare this to video: two patterns immediately one after another several times - very easy to hear the difference! (BTW, to me: the toroidal prop seems to have a more pleasant noise spectre)
Nice, thanks! I've watched two dozen videos from different sources since the MIT paper came out. For me, yours most clearly and impressively showed (made audible) the difference between the two fan types. Same windpower, same power intake, same loudness level, but very much nicer frequencies. Thanks again!
Even though the results were the same, I feel that the standard fan had more of an annoying hiss and preferred the toroidal fan. I really enjoyed this video and your professional scientific method. The only thing missing is a cat :) I'm impressed with your command of English (but maybe it is your first language).Thanks for this video!
I have same fan, smoothed prop blade leading and trailing edges, took rear and front mesh guards off and huge improvement. About a 30 min job. (Watch your fingers, keep kids away)
You could measure prop noise with and without screen, but for sure it will reduce ome noise. Air flow: Basically the same amount, exept from some air drawn in from aside, so removing front&rear screens hugely reduces the drag=noise and increases fan efficiency. Simple mod. No cost. Not finger fool proof. I never stuck finger in fan. But it may happen.
Toroidal cuts some of the high frequency. A bit like the difference of white noise and pink noise. Doesn't sound as harsh and cutting as white noise. Pink noise is something used in room acoustics, for loudspeaker setup and so on. Basically it is white noise adjusted to average human frequency sensitivity, with attenuation on the higher frequencies because we are more sensitive towards them than lower frequencies (as in: a 6kHz sine wave at 80dB "appears" louder than a 1kHz sine wave at the same 80dB level)
The toroidal definitely sounded less "aggressive". I also just remembered that Zipline made some weird asymetric fans to drastically reduce the noise of their drones. Now I wonder if a similar although likely less drastic effect could be achieved, if you go with a 4 "blade" toroidal design but make slight changed between the 2 "blade" pairs. Like giving one pair more pitch and the other a little less or making on pair's "rim" go more outwards and the other's more inwards, so the blade rings aren't completely circular, but slightly oval, with one pair being oval outwards and the other "sideways".
I recently bought a nice Hatari fan that has an option to deliver the wind in waves, and I'd never experienced this before, but it's the most soothing sound when going to sleep. Instead of a constant white noise, it's an up and down gentle whooshing like being near the ocean.
2:40 Based on how Shaky the stand is.. safe to say the toroidal prop isnt balance perfectly (which is expected).. But with industrial grade quality, im pretty sure the performance will be on par or better then the original fan
I like your work. Now I want a Toroidal fan for myself. I preferred the frequency of the noise form the toroidal fan vs the standard. the toroidal fan frequency was more calming than the higher frequency from the normal fan
Dude, your toroidal fan is made with so soft material, make it from little sturdy material, I bet the looseness of material is making sound not the shape. Try different material or thick wall to avoid flexibility, even when you touched it with hand it feels like a jellybean.
Yeah I bet injection molded ABS fan would've been slightly different. Although if no additional disturbances are present (poorly oiled bearings, vibrations in the motor, damaged blades), the noise level depends on the airflow and static pressure almost linearly. Shortly: more wind = more noise.
Repeating those tests on 'bare' blades, no front (and even no back) cover may eliminate noise from air hitting mesh. Sharpness of mesh (and poor finish) could contribute to the noise level. Great job anyhow 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
I came here expecting just a kid imitating all the clueless youtubers doing toroidal fans with really no point and objective, and I was impressed by the good testing methods an data choice to be gathered on the testing, gave me some information i was looking for, which sadly is not that often on youtube anymore. Good job my man
Personal experience (after years using different brands of desk fans) : old KDK fan blades have lower noise because they are flatter with wider blades, angle and curvature of the blades are important for lower noise and air speed and you need to find the balance between both factors, last thing ball bearings make a more power efficient fan than sleeve bearings, use graphite lubricant for better results.
Basically, the toroidal and original produced the same sound frequency pattern. Judging by the graphs you showed, and considering their evolution over time, the pattern of frequencies and their volumes remains relatively constant around a certain range in vertical axis. If you inspect the range for each frequency and take the average of the values in that range in Y, for every point in X by separate, you make a Average_volume-Frequency graph, which seems to be the function over which the graph "fluctuates". By comparing both graphs from the two fans, and assuming the scaling in X and Y is the same for both, then we can conclude basically both have: * The same averageVolume-Frequency graph * They both have the same volume * The dispersion made by the toroidal has a standard deviation smaller than the original one. So yes, for every single frequency, the toroidal fan makes less sound as it's standard devation of volume over time is smaller than the standard deviation of the original one. This has the result of having a more "smooth" sound (as it doesnt vary too much from the mean) and slightly "quieter" (as it has ≈ mean but smaller deviation; this is, for a certain frequency, the maximum dB or volume archieve by the toroidal is always smaller than the maximum volume archieved by the original). So yes, it's good and I think your model is better. However, it would be wise first to test wether the toroidal is secure, stable and cheaper to produce.
Your video production and presentation are getting better and better, it's good to see more of your personality and a more jovial approach. This one was too short though, we need more ! 🙂
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So funny, love the humor. The expression about it not be perfect is new to me. I laughed. Your dad in the chair I laughed. I also learned about the point you made. Thank you for posting.
Great job. Very interesting topic, but as a fellow tinkering enthusiast I have a couple of questions and suggestions. Firstly, why not ABS? It would be much easier to post process with an aceton fume treatment. Furthermore it would be much more rigid because your propeller looks way to wobbly. It means it could deform under lead in an undesirable way a ruin your rssults. Going further, a but more mass to the propeller could help too. Firstly, to balance it by removing some material, seconldly by negating vibrations from the motor and the swing mechanism if the fan. Additionally look different ways aviation industry combats stream dekamination. It nay help too. If I remember correctly, sometimes they use dents or grooves on rotary blades or wings to help with it. Lastly, Keep on with it! Great project. Hope to see pt 2 😊
So far, I've not had a fan that was too loud. The drone in the background actually provides a nice soothing white noise, even for conventional propellers.
If you want more air speed, you need to maybe make the blade pitch more aggressive. I don't know what it would be, and I imagine there is a point of diminishing returns (a 90 pitch would be useless). Also, more blades should lower the noise, and I think increase air flow as well. I just stumbled on your video this morning. Great delivery style, subscribed!
I think a lot of the difference is about the pitch of the sound it makes. As people get older, the audible pitch level of what they cam hear changes (decreases I think), so you should use different test subjects with different age ranges and see what the results are
Nice work, I like more the sound of the toroidal propeller. Try playing with the size of the toroidal propeller, for example make the diameter smaller or make the toroidal propeller more or less dense.
And the initial pitch near the hub, the pitch around the 'knots', the pitch when a blade is joined with another one, the blade thickness, the blade side profile, shape changes to improve the drag of its corners, ...
🤘🏼 Cool experiment! By the way, ceiling fans are not noisy (because the horizontal operation balances the blades) and they also circulate air much more efficiently.
The bigger the fan the greater the diminishing return it seems to me then. Because the low frequency noises got more room but that did not in fact lower the decibels or output. The true power of toroidal is in water where they can be used for propulsion. With toroidal propellors there is supposedly less if no cavitation causing less wear on the propellors themselves. It's a cost saver in that regard. The lower noise levels and efficiency boosts are merely added bonuses.
The toroidal fan has more of a hum whereas the normal fan has a higher pitched sound, like static. Humming sounds more comfortable than annoying static.
Good attempt, but is that a real Toroidal or a TlO (Toroidal looking object):) I am guessing that small differances in blade pitch etc could make considerable improvements. Your thoughts are welcomed.
This is not a toroidal fan, it is a toroidal object. With a toroidal fan the blades act like wings and the rounded over edges prevent turbulence. It's nothing like the design in the video. I mentioned this in the last video as well.
Interesting test. Since I found out that they exist, I was interested in trying them. More since I read about its "benefits", but in practice, after seeing several reviews, I don't see those benefits, at least in air applications. Although according to other publications that I saw, the best test scenario is water, in aquatic vehicles it improves engine performance and reduces turbulence. Excellent work, I congratulate you. Greetings from Argentina.
Be carreful! You can't get performance due to the imbalance from production. simply get the balance after production. Differention will be came with balance!
Nikodem, Try this, using the Original fan blade make a flat Band to go around the circumference of the blades. Looks Sort of like a person using a headband when jogging. Maybe make it out of a 3 (76mm) or 4 (102mm) inch piece of plastic. Check for NOISE and a possible AIR VOLUME increase . I think it will make an improvement. Shouldn't be to difficult. You already have the measurements for the Original fan blade. Good Luck. From the Southeast USA. .
I'm not sure if it's the microphone or recording equipment, or the compression, but it definitely sounds a whole lot better with the toroidal version. I hope you use your creation over the original :)
nice idea and tests :) I'm also sensitive to noise and was trying to come up with some quiet cooling for summer time awhile ago. I ended up creating and placing a table fan just in front of me - I used noctua S12A model - it's small but can do some pleasant cooling from such distance, and it can be dead quiet (it's one of the best performance/loudness fans you can buy) I typically use it at around 60% power (60% pwm duty to say exactly)
Hey look a this modified noctua fan :) "Reverse ENGINEERING Noctua's mythical DESK FAN (Noctua NH-AAS) by major hardware" th-cam.com/video/SIcjrMmXlCc/w-d-xo.html
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I think you should try balancing the fans. You might be introducing noise in the 3d printed version by having an off center, center of mass. It will vibrate like a rumble motor in a controller.
I honestly love the futuristic look of toroidal fans. Indifferent conclusions aside, I wish more fan manufacturers made this type of fan on their newer models.
Toroidal fans mostly help with reducing high-pitched noise from vortexes at the blades' outer edges. The remainder of high-pitched noise is likely caused by the fan guard turbulence as others have already mentioned.
The toroidal does indeed produce less high-frequency sounds, which carry the most energy and thus have the most potential for aggravating hearing-loss when exposed to them for long periods of time.
I enjoy the experiment, If you want a quiet fan what you really need is a larger blade because it has to turn at a much slower speed than a smaller bladed fan and is mainly the turbulence from the fast fan blades which make the noise. There will be two approaches, you could either build a larger fan blade which has quite minimal blade angles so is not to overwhelm the motor or you could just put the fan on a variable voltage transformer I would wager that a 40 watts with much larger fan blades would be much cooler and quieter than a normal size fan. But again I don't know what the extra load on the fan motor would do This is why a voltage controller would be helpful. I don't know if the extra drag of larger fan blades would consume more electricity or burn out the motor.
Nice work. The sound from the toroidal fan was much nicer. That with perhaps a 5%-10% reduction in speed would be worth it. Getting only that reduction compared with a professional fan is impressive!
It isn't just the shape of the propeller. to make the results more fair, you need to use a control blade that is made of similar material and thickness to the toroidal blade.
The difference I heard form the toroidal fan is that it does shift the noise tones to the lower pitches. Although it may not have decreased the loudness, it is a bit smoother and easier on the ears.
There were two many uncontrollable variables in this experiment. The fact you've got it not worse then what was offered by a manufacturer is already amazing
I think since your dad complained about low end rumble being more audible, you can do two things to improve on it. First you can offset the fan blades slightly from each other, making it less symmetrical. Many high end electronics cooling fans actually have slightly offset blades. Second you probably want to balance the rotor by adding weights or removing material as needed.
i think you'll get more noise reduction out of stiffening the whole fan. it's all those cheap plastic parts being rattled around. you can get an idea where most of the noise is generated simply by touching the fan in various places, and feeling the vibrations.
There is a quieter design you could try, but it would be harder to pull off because it needs good balancing. They're the "zipline" silent propellers that use an offset blade design that is counter balanced to produce a lower frequency sound.
i had this question yesterday for another channel....low and behold a fellow polak already did it. well...i used to be a polak, and now i'm just me :) well done young people doing nice things. since you've done the recordings, you could apply some analysis after taking the audio apart with Fourier transforms.
I give you credit for doing this. I still like the sound of the original, but I also wear headphones and like the white noise to block others out :) Maybe I am just more used to that sound.
we don't need toroidal but adding diffuser on the wings works perfectly fine and drops sound quite a bit almost all metal bladed fans have that feature thus makes it more quieter while being more efficent
Regarding noise, there's another design which might be overlooked: Unevenly spaced blades. If I remember correctly, Apple uses that in their laptops, and it makes the fan noise less of a drone and more of a broad-spectrum pink-noise, which is not as annoying.
@@lucasc5622 As long as you keep it symmetrical across two axes, I think balance is fine. And their cooling efficiency was fairly impressive for the volume. Sadly at the same time Apple decided _"Hey, let's make all our laptops stupidly thin at the expense of basic functionality."_
Слабо понимаю английский, но вижу отлично проделанную научную работу по испытаниям и с хорошей подачей материала. Продолжай свои работы в любом направлении. Тебя интересно слушать и смотреть.
Some noise is caused by the safety shrouds located for and aft of the blades, that saftey feature also reduces airflow. Building an enclosure with fewer restrictions, (but further away so that people still can't get hurt would increase airflow and decrease noise levels.
This propeller was created for greater efficiency in both noise and thrust. The problem is that it doesn't work in 3D printing, which means it's not that applicable to the general public and depends a lot on the manufacturing process. This is the umpteenth video I've seen of this experiment going wrong using plastic printers, which shows that this type of technology doesn't apply to them. The result is very different from what specialized companies achieve and it's clear that the result depends on the quality of the material and its smoothness, as well as the proper balance in the weight of the propeller, which I think is one of the great secrets of it all.
He did a pretty good job and presented some valuable data! I bet it can work as 3d printed, its just that we have to do a bunch of math to generate an optimized geometry for each application and rpm range. My gut tells me the angle of that propeller isnt great for this application but I dont want to do the work to prove it and suggest a solution.
@@PhantomBlank It may not seem like it, but weight, smoothness and mass distribution have a huge influence on the performance of a propeller. In all the experiments I've seen on the Internet, these toroidal models never work. It's not just this case here, I've also seen people try to put these things on drones and the performance of the aircraft gets much worse. This technology has remained in the hands of those who created it and that hasn't changed yet...
It sound is much better. As we age, our ability to hear high frequencies diminishes first, so it's important to always try to limit exposure to them. I was surprised it did not improve much. I wonder if you make the surface smoother (sanding or adding a smooth layer) it will make it improve the noise. Also, different speeds would be interesting. Also, thanks for keeping the video to just a few minutes as these days our attention spans are measured in minutes. =)
Lower and higher frequencies have different penetration properties on surfaces. So you can hear a muffled bass booming from speakers through walls, but high-pitched sounds bounce off the walls and stay in the room more. There are real differences, so it is not just personal preference.
I've noticed from youtube videos that it might work better in water but not worth it for moving air. For drones it adds weight, although the sound reduction is very exciting. It's much more expensive to manufacture for water than traditional design, and there are no replacements available if it breaks while on a journey. But it is more efficient and reduces cavitation.
I like the sound of the toroidal more. It has less high frequencies. Check out the design of the Duux fans (I have one) which have an inner fan ring to maximize performance. They are pretty quiet. I think they're designed using the same principle as PC fans.
If my basic logic is correct, as long as the pitch of the blade both normal & Toroidal then volume of air moved should remain the same. Vortices create drag normal propellers generate a concentrated vortices at the propeller tip, the toroidal prop distributes the vortices across the entire propeller blade.
I wonder if adding tubercles and a serrated trailing edge can make these even quieter! The sound generated by the toroid shape is definitely more pleasant imo
It depends. If I'm sleeping with earplugs, the low hum of the toroidal would cut through more. If I'm on a phone call,. the mid hiss of the traditional would be more audible for my caller. Surely with more R&D, a blade can be designed to get the best of both worlds.
Here I am building an electric robot lawn mower: th-cam.com/video/UnKOp4rhu7I/w-d-xo.html
Make odd number of fan blades bro
Get a card scraper. It'll make post processing 23 times faster.
I like the toroidal noise more
Ale się wystraszyłem, gdy zacząłeś mówić po polsku XD
Poland hot? Oh, poor things... You don't know what it's like to feel hot using a FAN that blows hot air. 😂
Dude, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I studied this type of thing for a few months to build a homemade wind turbine, and this is much more complicated than just printing the propeller.
I don't want to write a long text, but I recommend you research the blades of wind power plants to understand what I'm talking about (angles, degrees, stiffness, thickness) it's incredible how even a little dirt on a blade can ruin all harmony and balancing, and generate noise.
A tip: remove the protective cage during the tests, as it creates turbulence, and also try to get data on the noise that the engine generates to be able to have accurate information only about the propellers.
Hope he sees this ↑
Is it better to have no fan?
@@TaigiTWeseDiplomat--Formosanif it had no fan it definitely going to be a lot quieter
Write the long text. I want to learn.
@@than7831I’m thinking about this when I get my pc
The noise from the toroidal fan was a very soothing white noise. Now you have me thinking about replacing my go-to-sleep fan.
Same thought... Seems more pleasant
Rather than soothing, i bet it is way easier to mask because of the low pitch.
Get a ceiling fan instead. Sooooo much more comfortable and silent!
More expensive, requires professional installation or knowledge to install, and it's not really equivalent in function to a fan meant to help for sleep. A ceiling fan could not compare to a box fan on a table right next to my bed
@@SnowFaceChamcham Box Fan was my go to sleep TH-cam video for a long time. 😃
The video is 10 months ago but I'm seeing so many new comments, algorithm is blessing this guy
It's hot right now in many countries and so many videos about ventilation and the likes pop here and there.
Just popped in my recommended list, a month after your comment... lol
What time it is??? SUMMMMMEER TIME
!
If you remove the safety cage you will get a very noticable sound reduction, as it generates a lot of annoying tones from turbulence. Obviously though, don't do this with kids or pets around.
Also is such a dense mesh it mess with airflow
Will be ok where I am where I don't have kids nor pets that can hit blades. 😊
I actually do this with most of this type of fans for this exact reason. Since the motor doesn't have much torque and the plastic doesn't weigh much to carry lots of inertia it doesn't hurt much if you accidentally touch it.
that's why you can't beat dyson
@@howardlam6181 Dyson's are actually quite a bit louder when controlled for the same airflow
Your rotor is not balanced
Yeah, absolutely OP
Where there is a problem there be MORE THAN ONE question!
@@Neptunade hmmm! But the only things I can think of is the unbalanced rotor. Which may be due to poor mass distribution on impeller (3d printing imperfections). Also, if the design has critical speeds at the rpm he is operating! Anything else you can think about mate?
@@VENKATANARASIMHAHEGDE1RV19ME11 the infill could not be centered, since I dont know how to center the infill properly, the easiest way to probably balance it is by drilling a hole adding some weight.
Doesn't made by professionals
The noise from the toroidal blade was deeper and quite soothing I thought. Happy to have it on at night while sleeping. Nice video.
An additional consideration about your father's perception of the noise level. He is older (but younger than I am) and probably has more hearing loss compared to someone younger. Hearing loss typically is in the high frequencies. It seemed to me that your spectrum plots showed a greater reduction in the high frequencies for the toroidal fan measurements. The difference between the two fans would seem to be less for someone with higher frequency hearing loss because the relative perceived level of the high frequency content would be lower than the mid and low frequencies heard.
Are his dad's ears covered from sound too?
My grandmother, before she passed, unintentionally demonstrated this for me: she had a dryer whose belt was slipping and squeaking. We were standing next to it, and I asked "do you hear that?" and she could not. That friction could result in a fire. We replaced it, and learned that as one ages, the reduction in sensory inputs can lead to dangerous conditions.
yep, the conclusion being: test on mum, or sister ;)
The problem with dad's perception is the _time_ required to change the prop! It is difficult to compare such a similar sounds with the time gap between the sessions. Compare this to video: two patterns immediately one after another several times - very easy to hear the difference! (BTW, to me: the toroidal prop seems to have a more pleasant noise spectre)
@@michroz I'm an older gent and I agree - the toroidal fans sound was definitely shifted to lower frequencies, which is less annoying.
Nice, thanks! I've watched two dozen videos from different sources since the MIT paper came out. For me, yours most clearly and impressively showed (made audible) the difference between the two fan types. Same windpower, same power intake, same loudness level, but very much nicer frequencies. Thanks again!
The testing is very good but the fan shape is hard to get right.
If that’s the only conclusion you want to draw from that paper then sure, why not…
Toroidal's HF is desirable for me. Thanks from Colorado, nice project, video, test procedure, blind AB testing, script, audio and editing.
Thank you!
Even though the results were the same, I feel that the standard fan had more of an annoying hiss and preferred the toroidal fan. I really enjoyed this video and your professional scientific method. The only thing missing is a cat :) I'm impressed with your command of English (but maybe it is your first language).Thanks for this video!
The toroidal fan had a lower frequency cutoff, meaning that it lacks the irritating high frequency components. It is objectively produces less noise.
I have same fan, smoothed prop blade leading and trailing edges, took rear and front mesh guards off and huge improvement. About a 30 min job. (Watch your fingers, keep kids away)
An interesting thought: how much of the noise is air moving through the mesh in front of and behind the blade?
You could measure prop noise with and without screen, but for sure it will reduce ome noise. Air flow: Basically the same amount, exept from some air drawn in from aside, so removing front&rear screens hugely reduces the drag=noise and increases fan efficiency. Simple mod. No cost. Not finger fool proof. I never stuck finger in fan. But it may happen.
Toroidal cuts some of the high frequency. A bit like the difference of white noise and pink noise. Doesn't sound as harsh and cutting as white noise.
Pink noise is something used in room acoustics, for loudspeaker setup and so on. Basically it is white noise adjusted to average human frequency sensitivity, with attenuation on the higher frequencies because we are more sensitive towards them than lower frequencies (as in: a 6kHz sine wave at 80dB "appears" louder than a 1kHz sine wave at the same 80dB level)
The toroidal definitely sounded less "aggressive". I also just remembered that Zipline made some weird asymetric fans to drastically reduce the noise of their drones.
Now I wonder if a similar although likely less drastic effect could be achieved, if you go with a 4 "blade" toroidal design but make slight changed between the 2 "blade" pairs.
Like giving one pair more pitch and the other a little less or making on pair's "rim" go more outwards and the other's more inwards, so the blade rings aren't completely circular, but slightly oval, with one pair being oval outwards and the other "sideways".
hmm
Its shape wasn't tweaked using any optimization process while regular fans are well known and were optimized for decades.
I recently bought a nice Hatari fan that has an option to deliver the wind in waves, and I'd never experienced this before, but it's the most soothing sound when going to sleep. Instead of a constant white noise, it's an up and down gentle whooshing like being near the ocean.
2:40 Based on how Shaky the stand is.. safe to say the toroidal prop isnt balance perfectly (which is expected).. But with industrial grade quality, im pretty sure the performance will be on par or better then the original fan
I like your work. Now I want a Toroidal fan for myself. I preferred the frequency of the noise form the toroidal fan vs the standard. the toroidal fan frequency was more calming than the higher frequency from the normal fan
Dude, your toroidal fan is made with so soft material, make it from little sturdy material, I bet the looseness of material is making sound not the shape. Try different material or thick wall to avoid flexibility, even when you touched it with hand it feels like a jellybean.
Yeah I bet injection molded ABS fan would've been slightly different. Although if no additional disturbances are present (poorly oiled bearings, vibrations in the motor, damaged blades), the noise level depends on the airflow and static pressure almost linearly. Shortly: more wind = more noise.
Nice project, this has a potential to go viral, especially with the great looking thumbnail :)
Repeating those tests on 'bare' blades, no front (and even no back) cover may eliminate noise from air hitting mesh. Sharpness of mesh (and poor finish) could contribute to the noise level. Great job anyhow 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
My thoughts too, the mesh affects airflow massively.
Old Fans do not have mesh cover
I came here expecting just a kid imitating all the clueless youtubers doing toroidal fans with really no point and objective, and I was impressed by the good testing methods an data choice to be gathered on the testing, gave me some information i was looking for, which sadly is not that often on youtube anymore.
Good job my man
I appreciate that you're using professional equipment. Thank you for doing the science. I prefer the low hum of toroidal, gonna try to print my own.
Personal experience (after years using different brands of desk fans) : old KDK fan blades have lower noise because they are flatter with wider blades, angle and curvature of the blades are important for lower noise and air speed and you need to find the balance between both factors, last thing ball bearings make a more power efficient fan than sleeve bearings, use graphite lubricant for better results.
To think and try it out! You are truly a great engineer, kro up the great work
Basically, the toroidal and original produced the same sound frequency pattern.
Judging by the graphs you showed, and considering their evolution over time, the pattern of frequencies and their volumes remains relatively constant around a certain range in vertical axis. If you inspect the range for each frequency and take the average of the values in that range in Y, for every point in X by separate, you make a Average_volume-Frequency graph, which seems to be the function over which the graph "fluctuates".
By comparing both graphs from the two fans, and assuming the scaling in X and Y is the same for both, then we can conclude basically both have:
* The same averageVolume-Frequency graph
* They both have the same volume
* The dispersion made by the toroidal has a standard deviation smaller than the original one.
So yes, for every single frequency, the toroidal fan makes less sound as it's standard devation of volume over time is smaller than the standard deviation of the original one.
This has the result of having a more "smooth" sound (as it doesnt vary too much from the mean) and slightly "quieter" (as it has ≈ mean but smaller deviation; this is, for a certain frequency, the maximum dB or volume archieve by the toroidal is always smaller than the maximum volume archieved by the original).
So yes, it's good and I think your model is better. However, it would be wise first to test wether the toroidal is secure, stable and cheaper to produce.
THANK YOU for doing the power comparison. It's sort of a lurking variable and I wasn't expecting it to be addressed.
Your video production and presentation are getting better and better, it's good to see more of your personality and a more jovial approach. This one was too short though, we need more ! 🙂
Thank you!!!
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More ....
So funny, love the humor. The expression about it not be perfect is new to me. I laughed. Your dad in the chair I laughed. I also learned about the point you made. Thank you for posting.
It's still more professional than some "professionals", nice going
Great job. Very interesting topic, but as a fellow tinkering enthusiast I have a couple of questions and suggestions. Firstly, why not ABS? It would be much easier to post process with an aceton fume treatment. Furthermore it would be much more rigid because your propeller looks way to wobbly. It means it could deform under lead in an undesirable way a ruin your rssults. Going further, a but more mass to the propeller could help too. Firstly, to balance it by removing some material, seconldly by negating vibrations from the motor and the swing mechanism if the fan. Additionally look different ways aviation industry combats stream dekamination. It nay help too. If I remember correctly, sometimes they use dents or grooves on rotary blades or wings to help with it.
Lastly, Keep on with it! Great project. Hope to see pt 2 😊
But the brown noise is so calming 😭
So far, I've not had a fan that was too loud. The drone in the background actually provides a nice soothing white noise, even for conventional propellers.
the toroidal fan is quieter also is somewhat less dangerous than extended sharp regular blades.
So what, I have to find a toroidal box fan now? It sounded so goood. Fascinating! Love the thoroughness of tests.
If you want more air speed, you need to maybe make the blade pitch more aggressive. I don't know what it would be, and I imagine there is a point of diminishing returns (a 90 pitch would be useless). Also, more blades should lower the noise, and I think increase air flow as well. I just stumbled on your video this morning. Great delivery style, subscribed!
The shape of its corners are still what causes most noise.
I think a lot of the difference is about the pitch of the sound it makes. As people get older, the audible pitch level of what they cam hear changes (decreases I think), so you should use different test subjects with different age ranges and see what the results are
I know you didn't intend for this to be an analog harshnoise demo but, at around 2:20, you nailed it! 😄😄👍🏼
Nice work, I like more the sound of the toroidal propeller.
Try playing with the size of the toroidal propeller, for example make the diameter smaller or make the toroidal propeller more or less dense.
And the initial pitch near the hub, the pitch around the 'knots', the pitch when a blade is joined with another one, the blade thickness, the blade side profile, shape changes to improve the drag of its corners, ...
🤘🏼 Cool experiment! By the way, ceiling fans are not noisy (because the horizontal operation balances the blades) and they also circulate air much more efficiently.
Did you consider testing without the protection metal frame? I have a feeling that most of noise is produced by the air hitting this structure.
Really appreciate the measurements at different processing stages! Well done.
Great video, very interesting results.
Kudos to anyone who can read that disclaimer in the middle without pausing!!
"It ain't perfect but its honest work" we going to mars with this one
The bigger the fan the greater the diminishing return it seems to me then. Because the low frequency noises got more room but that did not in fact lower the decibels or output. The true power of toroidal is in water where they can be used for propulsion. With toroidal propellors there is supposedly less if no cavitation causing less wear on the propellors themselves. It's a cost saver in that regard. The lower noise levels and efficiency boosts are merely added bonuses.
can it be applied at cooling fan?
"If there is a problem can we fix it with a toroidal fan?"
This is the solution to all relationship problems.
The toroidal fan has more of a hum whereas the normal fan has a higher pitched sound, like static. Humming sounds more comfortable than annoying static.
That high frequency roll off made the toroid blade sound more soothing and less annoying.
Good attempt, but is that a real Toroidal or a TlO (Toroidal looking object):)
I am guessing that small differances in blade pitch etc could make considerable improvements. Your thoughts are welcomed.
This is not a toroidal fan, it is a toroidal object. With a toroidal fan the blades act like wings and the rounded over edges prevent turbulence. It's nothing like the design in the video. I mentioned this in the last video as well.
@@MarinusMakesStuff Interesting.
Interesting test.
Since I found out that they exist, I was interested in trying them.
More since I read about its "benefits", but in practice, after seeing several reviews, I don't see those benefits, at least in air applications.
Although according to other publications that I saw, the best test scenario is water, in aquatic vehicles it improves engine performance and reduces turbulence.
Excellent work, I congratulate you.
Greetings from Argentina.
Be carreful! You can't get performance due to the imbalance from production. simply get the balance after production. Differention will be came with balance!
Another video about thoroidal propellers did this.
Nikodem,
Try this, using the Original fan blade make a flat Band to go around the circumference of the blades. Looks Sort of like a person using a headband when jogging.
Maybe make it out of a 3 (76mm) or 4 (102mm) inch piece of plastic.
Check for NOISE and a possible AIR VOLUME increase . I think it will make an improvement. Shouldn't be to difficult. You already have the measurements for the Original fan blade. Good Luck.
From the Southeast USA.
.
next: toroidal jet engine
I would have to listen to it in person for a while before deciding on a preference, but I think I like your 3D printed one a little bit more
1:04 what is that spray
I'm not sure if it's the microphone or recording equipment, or the compression, but it definitely sounds a whole lot better with the toroidal version. I hope you use your creation over the original :)
nice idea and tests :) I'm also sensitive to noise and was trying to come up with some quiet cooling for summer time awhile ago. I ended up creating and placing a table fan just in front of me - I used noctua S12A model - it's small but can do some pleasant cooling from such distance, and it can be dead quiet (it's one of the best performance/loudness fans you can buy) I typically use it at around 60% power (60% pwm duty to say exactly)
Hey look a this modified noctua fan :)
"Reverse ENGINEERING Noctua's mythical DESK FAN (Noctua NH-AAS) by major hardware"
th-cam.com/video/SIcjrMmXlCc/w-d-xo.html
Romans 10:9-10 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."
Instead of spreading this low effort nonsense all over why don't you try to make actual friends? Or does no one want to hear you babble?
I think you should try balancing the fans. You might be introducing noise in the 3d printed version by having an off center, center of mass. It will vibrate like a rumble motor in a controller.
I honestly love the futuristic look of toroidal fans. Indifferent conclusions aside, I wish more fan manufacturers made this type of fan on their newer models.
I agree with the gentleman’s assessment.. the volume sound is about the same but the pitch of the sound is definitely different…
Toroidal fans mostly help with reducing high-pitched noise from vortexes at the blades' outer edges. The remainder of high-pitched noise is likely caused by the fan guard turbulence as others have already mentioned.
The toroidal does indeed produce less high-frequency sounds, which carry the most energy and thus have the most potential for aggravating hearing-loss when exposed to them for long periods of time.
The toroidal in LVL 1 sounds so good, almost calming
Keep doing! I love it when the youth has ambition and talent to experiement.
I enjoy the experiment, If you want a quiet fan what you really need is a larger blade because it has to turn at a much slower speed than a smaller bladed fan and is mainly the turbulence from the fast fan blades which make the noise. There will be two approaches, you could either build a larger fan blade which has quite minimal blade angles so is not to overwhelm the motor or you could just put the fan on a variable voltage transformer I would wager that a 40 watts with much larger fan blades would be much cooler and quieter than a normal size fan. But again I don't know what the extra load on the fan motor would do This is why a voltage controller would be helpful. I don't know if the extra drag of larger fan blades would consume more electricity or burn out the motor.
Nice work. The sound from the toroidal fan was much nicer. That with perhaps a 5%-10% reduction in speed would be worth it. Getting only that reduction compared with a professional fan is impressive!
You can make it a LOT quieter and more powerful by removing the cage guard. I ran a fan like that in my college dorm, made a big difference.
This is quality work. If we would have more people like you we would have flying cars by now
It isn't just the shape of the propeller. to make the results more fair, you need to use a control blade that is made of similar material and thickness to the toroidal blade.
The difference I heard form the toroidal fan is that it does shift the noise tones to the lower pitches. Although it may not have decreased the loudness, it is a bit smoother and easier on the ears.
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“ it’s professional I promise “ 😊 love your personality 🤙🏽
There were two many uncontrollable variables in this experiment. The fact you've got it not worse then what was offered by a manufacturer is already amazing
I think since your dad complained about low end rumble being more audible, you can do two things to improve on it.
First you can offset the fan blades slightly from each other, making it less symmetrical. Many high end electronics cooling fans actually have slightly offset blades.
Second you probably want to balance the rotor by adding weights or removing material as needed.
Good research lad, you are going to get smarter and produce genius stuff, keep the learning curve active!
I like the lower pitch of the toroidal sound
i think you'll get more noise reduction out of stiffening the whole fan. it's all those cheap plastic parts being rattled around. you can get an idea where most of the noise is generated simply by touching the fan in various places, and feeling the vibrations.
It's not professional but it's honest work
I love it
There is a quieter design you could try, but it would be harder to pull off because it needs good balancing. They're the "zipline" silent propellers that use an offset blade design that is counter balanced to produce a lower frequency sound.
i had this question yesterday for another channel....low and behold a fellow polak already did it. well...i used to be a polak, and now i'm just me :)
well done young people doing nice things.
since you've done the recordings, you could apply some analysis after taking the audio apart with Fourier transforms.
I give you credit for doing this. I still like the sound of the original, but I also wear headphones and like the white noise to block others out :) Maybe I am just more used to that sound.
we don't need toroidal but adding diffuser on the wings works perfectly fine and drops sound quite a bit almost all metal bladed fans have that feature thus makes it more quieter while being more efficent
I didn't know I need to know this, but apparently I do. Great comparison.
Nice! Turned the fan into making more brown noise without any performance losses. That's not too bad.
Regarding noise, there's another design which might be overlooked: Unevenly spaced blades. If I remember correctly, Apple uses that in their laptops, and it makes the fan noise less of a drone and more of a broad-spectrum pink-noise, which is not as annoying.
That’s interesting how they did that without affecting the balance. It’s a shame that apple laptops aren’t known for their effective cooling 😂
@@lucasc5622 As long as you keep it symmetrical across two axes, I think balance is fine.
And their cooling efficiency was fairly impressive for the volume. Sadly at the same time Apple decided _"Hey, let's make all our laptops stupidly thin at the expense of basic functionality."_
Слабо понимаю английский, но вижу отлично проделанную научную работу по испытаниям и с хорошей подачей материала. Продолжай свои работы в любом направлении. Тебя интересно слушать и смотреть.
I like the experimentation, time well invested mate. keep it up
Some noise is caused by the safety shrouds located for and aft of the blades, that saftey feature also reduces airflow. Building an enclosure with fewer restrictions, (but further away so that people still can't get hurt would increase airflow and decrease noise levels.
This propeller was created for greater efficiency in both noise and thrust. The problem is that it doesn't work in 3D printing, which means it's not that applicable to the general public and depends a lot on the manufacturing process. This is the umpteenth video I've seen of this experiment going wrong using plastic printers, which shows that this type of technology doesn't apply to them. The result is very different from what specialized companies achieve and it's clear that the result depends on the quality of the material and its smoothness, as well as the proper balance in the weight of the propeller, which I think is one of the great secrets of it all.
He did a pretty good job and presented some valuable data! I bet it can work as 3d printed, its just that we have to do a bunch of math to generate an optimized geometry for each application and rpm range. My gut tells me the angle of that propeller isnt great for this application but I dont want to do the work to prove it and suggest a solution.
@@PhantomBlank It may not seem like it, but weight, smoothness and mass distribution have a huge influence on the performance of a propeller. In all the experiments I've seen on the Internet, these toroidal models never work. It's not just this case here, I've also seen people try to put these things on drones and the performance of the aircraft gets much worse. This technology has remained in the hands of those who created it and that hasn't changed yet...
It sound is much better. As we age, our ability to hear high frequencies diminishes first, so it's important to always try to limit exposure to them. I was surprised it did not improve much. I wonder if you make the surface smoother (sanding or adding a smooth layer) it will make it improve the noise. Also, different speeds would be interesting. Also, thanks for keeping the video to just a few minutes as these days our attention spans are measured in minutes. =)
I appreciate the honesty and diligence. Well done.
Lower and higher frequencies have different penetration properties on surfaces. So you can hear a muffled bass booming from speakers through walls, but high-pitched sounds bounce off the walls and stay in the room more. There are real differences, so it is not just personal preference.
I've noticed from youtube videos that it might work better in water but not worth it for moving air. For drones it adds weight, although the sound reduction is very exciting. It's much more expensive to manufacture for water than traditional design, and there are no replacements available if it breaks while on a journey. But it is more efficient and reduces cavitation.
I like the sound of the toroidal more. It has less high frequencies.
Check out the design of the Duux fans (I have one) which have an inner fan ring to maximize performance. They are pretty quiet. I think they're designed using the same principle as PC fans.
If my basic logic is correct, as long as the pitch of the blade both normal & Toroidal then volume of air moved should remain the same. Vortices create drag normal propellers generate a concentrated vortices at the propeller tip, the toroidal prop distributes the vortices across the entire propeller blade.
That was a great experiment buddy !
I wonder if adding tubercles and a serrated trailing edge can make these even quieter! The sound generated by the toroid shape is definitely more pleasant imo
It depends. If I'm sleeping with earplugs, the low hum of the toroidal would cut through more. If I'm on a phone call,. the mid hiss of the traditional would be more audible for my caller. Surely with more R&D, a blade can be designed to get the best of both worlds.