BiB Brothers in Boots Vol 19 Talk with Chris from The Boot Wiki about Why Buy PNW Boots
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 พ.ค. 2024
- Volume 17 of boot discussion with Mike & Jeff. A Talk with Chris from The Boot Wiki about Why Buy PNW Boots
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This may be y’all’s best episode yet. I spent months trying to compile all this info from half decent or worse TH-cam videos and untold hours of Reddit and Facebook posts before my first purchase. It’s great to have this all together in one place.
I’ve always been curious on roughly how the output of the makers compares? I’m assuming it goes whites, Wesco, nicks, jk, franks but how big is the gap between them all?
I feel like that is a difficult question because it could be interpreted and answered many ways....
Boots made per year? Yeah, that could be right. I think Nick's and Wesco might be reversed. Wesco has more space, and more automation, but I'm not sure they have the personnel.
Output that stays domestic I think Wesco slides down a bit further.
Quality of the output Frank's would jump to the top.
How big is the gap on total output? Gosh, that's hard to say. They all seem to keep that information close to the vest. I've heard Frank say he tells employees to slowdown because quality is more important than quantity. Especially if said employee recently came over from another builder. Some pay employees based on production which encourages them to work faster. White's has had some really, really short lead times recently suggesting their business might be down. White's also does more handwelting, which takes longer, and further suggesting business for them might be down.
I feel like I'm starting to ramble 😂
Great episode! I've learned so much from your conversations, such a super channel with so many interesting topics that aren't covered anywhere else. And mad credit for the Iron Maiden gear.
I've been thinking about getting a Frank's Ryker for some time now. Man, maybe it's time to pull the trigger. I'm just far enough from Spokane to make it a real pain to get up to the shop, but there's no replacement for the face to face.
You guys made a lot of great points in the conversation. I would say that the most disappointing maker out of the bunch is Wesco. Their build quality seems to have slipped in the last decade and their wait times are ridiculous. I'm happy to say that I've had great fortune with JK's build quality and customer service. Gotta give them credit, I think they started out rough but they're learning to be better. I love my Vibergs, but they've had some of the least consistent customer service of the lot. Another great reason to go with Frank's. And they just are such decent people.
Thanks again for the insight.
I had 1 pair from Indonesian boot maker. They made me with high gusset tongue as requested. Hand stitched split reverse welt. Recessed stitch on Vibram 2040 Fighter.
Unfortunately:
- the last so too high around instep and ankle area.
-The shaft is too big.
-There are 4 small gaps where the tongue meets the vamp
- They also tacked the heel counter to the last , extra 4 holes there.
The result is poor water resistance. I ended up sealing those 8 holes
and gave the boot to my beefier cousin. Thank God that pair fits him well.
It shouldn't be a surprise that some of these Indonesian builders are better than others. I've been trying to take mental notes but information is so limited it can be difficult.
Do you mind sharing which builder that was?
great content! I will add that fit will vary in volume given how hot foot your is throughout the day. When you go in for a fitting, it is a good idea to walk a mile (or more) before arrival prior to committing to a last/size.
Great advice!
My Shrunken Bison boots had no break in time for the upper. And the sole took a month.
🐃
In regards to UK and Canada sizing, I have two discontinued calf goodyearwelted derby boots from NPS/Solovair sized 6 UK that are clearly E width that I fit nicely into with room to spare (I'm usually UK size 7.5 for fabric sneakers, 7 for leather sneakers). Then I bought a casual stitchdown derby boot from Solovair also sized 6 and the width was I suspect even smaller than the American D width. I double checked to make sure I didn't buy women's boots for my dainty feet lol. A problem that could be solved by wearing ankle dress socks I thought, time to phase out the thick work socks I thought.
I thought wrong. The double whammer was celastics used in the toe cap for that boot messes with my pinky toe constantly due to the narrow width. The boot itself isn't pinching on my toes yet and I suspect with enough wear the leather would stretch that extra millimeter to allow my foot to be fully comfortable in it but the celastics messing with my toes isn't making it easier. As usual, it's down to the subtle differences in the last used. I can wear them, I just wouldn't last a full day in them.
I've since learned that if the sizing chart is confusing going for whichever the manufacturer lists as EU40 generally solves my problem. I have a US 7 in Bordon that in being made and both US7 (EU39) and US 7.5 (EU40) in OakStreet Bootmakers. Oakstreet US7.5 fits me near perfectly while US 7 is comfortble, but on the snug side. I'll soon retest my theory with the bordon I ordered.
Okay, I actually did a comparison test between my older Thursdays Captain at size US 6.5 with their dressier last, and the Solovair stitchdown boot. The Solovair at size 6UK is more narrow than the Captains at size 5.5UK effectively. What in tarnation? The more boots I wear, the less I understand my sizing lmao.
I have a friend from Malaysia ordered Frank's. He ordered from Frank instead , because he said Nick's cut corner. He is huge and tall, very wide feet , lots of F. He wore it a lot and pending resole.
I just went for Nick's , because only 105 days of wait. Easier to ask for smaller quarter for my slender ankle , I just DM their staff in Reddit.
In the future could you guys expand more on relasting a boot?
As a massage therapist if you're bending over and you can't touch your toes without bending your knees because your hamstrings are tight not your quads
53:30 it’s 9338 and it’s great last❤
I missed it by one number. Ends in 8 like you said instead of 7 like I guessed. Not bad on my part off the top of my head. *LOL*
Any comparisons between the Nicks Delta Arch and Frank's Rainier/Wedge-on-a-55? I'm curious what the small but growing(? White's has that one 350 that Rose Anvil cut with the lineman wedge) PNW wedge with arch support market is like.
The way Frank's and White's is tackling it is best. It is built in. They are using a wedge with some heel height built into it, then using a lineman shank (extra half midsole) to raise the wearers heel even more, so that the PNW lasts with lots of arch in them can be used in the build. (55, 4811, 1977, etc)
What Nick's is doing with the Delta Arch, is just building a low, almost no, arch boot, and then dropping an insert into the boot to provide some arch support. There are DOZENS of companies selling drop-in arch support out there, and this is really no different. And do you know why there are sooooo many companies offering arch support inserts? Because nobody is ever happy with them. They always go wanting to try another cuz they didn't like what they got. If you really want arch inserts, just go to a podiatrist and have some custom made for you. Your insurance will probably cover it. It is the only insert worth owning.
Mike did buy a set of Delta Arch Inserts, so he might be able to shed some more light....
@@cloveroak5492Okay, I have to defend Nicks again here... they do make Delta Arch inserts that can be dropped inside any footwear you want. They function like any high-arch insert, but made better.
Nicks also provides an option to have the boots built on the Delta Arch, meaning instead of having the normal flat-ish footbed of the HNW last, the footbed is now the Delta Arch and non-removable. The arch support is just slightly less than what the 55 has.
Great channel. I hope you guys keep it up.
PNW boots aren't for me that gusseted tongue is a deal breaker. Any chance of you guys doing an episode on UK boot brands?
I wonder if non-gusset could be requested? They are MTO after all. And a gusset could be cut out. I have seen that done at least once.
We could probably put together a UK one? 🤔 I dunno. I know it is not where either of us are at right now. We both value arch, and maybe even need arch, I know I do, and none of the auak builders do an arch. But we have both owned some UK brands, so maybe. Are their specific builders you are interested in?
@@cloveroak5492 I asked Nicks for an Officer like that and they told me no.
@@Faux_59 White's has semi gusseted tongues on some boots, maybe just the MP? Which albeit is one the less PNW esque boots made by a PNW maker
Nick's doesn't do anything custom anymore. They keep heading closer and closer to off-the-shelf boots. One reason I like them less and less everyday. The builders to ask would be Frank's or White's.
@@cloveroak5492Nicks definitely does custom boots. Maybe not as customizable as Frank's, but you can still get creative with their MTO options. 5 of my 8 Nicks are custom builds; the others are pre-configs. The only off-the-shelf boots they carry are the ones that people send back due to sizing issues. Everything's still built to order.
Um, I don't know if I have any questions that took me a couple sessions to get thru here BUT I think I've had pretty good luck with Nick's so far in terms of sizing since that pair of White's still wants to smash my toes more and cut into my foot even BELOW the vamp / upper part where I was crowing about articulation for the shaft in previous episode comments and such. I'm not sure if part of the issue there was extra gusset flap bunching up too, but I wore them this morning for a couple hours and had that part blistering in addition to the Bite where maybe I was too tightly laced up a little higher. Wore the Nick's yesterday and had none of these issues except maybe where I thought they were too tight initially now they seem to be loosening so I'm more worried that getting wider widths could be an issue with other pair but I'll cross that bridge later, I guess, since different toe style, etc.
I did not wear the White's ones around the house first before going out initially, but it also wasn't especially cold at the time, either. Wore them for pretty long drive one day and had no real issue but also didn't walk much that time.
Would it make sense to try to reuse roughout as interior if not worn very much if I got a semi-premature rebuild? I prefer the smooth lowers, so if I was changing something else like adding heel stack, etc.?
I'm not entirely sure the kilties are as beneficial as I'd like, especially with the thicker gusset leather. I might start viewing the gusset part as something that should be replaced with resole??? Necessary evil or too much extra expense? I guess I should call Baker's next time instead of White's, but a lot of the models they offer seem to add a bit of markup, so still not sure where I will get the couple that are more specialty builds maybe, BUT again, at least one it seems like Nick's will do just fine.
Oh, I also speculate that maybe a company like Nick's should have two divisions or something: One where they can do the more MTO / custom stuff and one where they just have the fire service boots ready to go in more sizes. The idea that they are trying to have more other selections ready to go I guess is fine, but I think then both sides of the other lose out because I don't know how they can get out enough fire boots early enough some years, etc. I've complained plenty about how if a guy is STARTING a job, he can't really WAIT several months for his shoes, but at the same time, so far I've gotten both pairs of boots from them much faster than the expected delivery date and the White's boots came a couple weeks sooner, too, but I forget what the expected date was but at the time I thought they would have more of THOSE model ready-to-ship when they did a pre-order launch, etc.
It would be easier to respond if you made each question it's own post. a post with 4 comments is pretty hard to respond to. I have to open the screen on 2 different monitors to be able to make sure I'm not forgeting anything.
---Which part blisters? The front of your foot at about the 5th eyelet?
---What do you do with your gussets? Tri-fold? Tuck in extra to the left and right? Do nothing and just let it fall where it wants? Something else?
---Usually a boot only widens where it needs to. and where it is widening is part of the equation too. So I'm not yet hearing a concern about width.
---Reuse RO as interior??? So you'd want the builder to rebuild your boots, throwaway the counter, and the vamp liner, but hold on to the outer vamp piece to reuse it as your vamp liner??? If that is the question, I don't know why you would? and if you did would you want smooth side touching your foot or RO side touching your foot? Would you want it to be a 3rd layer? Vamp, vamp liner, and the original vamp as a second liner? That is a lot of leather. Why are you thinking about this? To what end?
Then you mention if doing something like "adding a heal stack, etc"? A heel stack can be done without a rebuild. Heel stack doesn't even necessarily have to involve a full resole.
---You would like your kilties to be MORE beneficial??? How? In what way?
Gusset cannot be replaced with a resole at all. Generally speaking it cannot be replaced with a Rebuild either. I guess it technically could be done. I think I heard of it once. But it would be really expensive. The gusset is part of the uppers, and being about to leave the uppers intact is part of why a Rebuild is possible and affordable.
Nick's won't go as custom as they used to. White's will do more custom now, and Frank's goes more custom than both of them.
---Whether Nick's does a separate division or not, they would still have the same output, so I do not see how that would make any real difference for the better. If anything a separate division could slow things down, as they couldn't use all resources at will whenever needed. There wouldn't be anything magic about another division. Same number of employees, same amount of customers, same building, same everything. So what would you change? Say X number of employees can only do work boots, and X number of employees can only do casual boots? Cuz that would literally slow things down. So I don't understand that at all. They couldn't magically hire new employees just because you separated your work force to be less efficient. If they thought more employees was a good financial decision, and those employees were available to be hired they'd have done so already regardless of having divisions.
I've really enjoyed watching your videos and have been learning a lot, but I don't get the hate you guys have for Nicks.
They're going towards Red Wing and off-the-shelf? I truly dont understand why you think that. RW is mass produced. Nicks is all MTO except for some ready-to-ship boots that customers returned due to sizing mistakes, which the other PNW brands offer too. You can get pretty creative with the build-your-own MTO options. Maybe not as much as Frank's, but still.
They discourage people from doing fit sheets? Their website explains clearly how to size their boots and how to use the fit sheet. There's even a chart that lists the ball and instep measurements of every size from 4 A up to 15 FFF. It's not difficult to take a few measurements and find your size on the chart. I guess I understand if you prefer a company to be more hands-on with sizing, but for me, the instructions were very simple and straightforward.
They're limited on where they can use their leathers? Nicks has a ton of Wickett & Craig leathers, and the Double Stuffed is exclusive to them. Nearly any boot can be made with these leathers except something on the 11067 because the W&C is too stiff to last on the sprung toe. That's not unreasonable. I'm not sure what else you want from them.
Sorry for the long rant but I felt like you weren't giving Nicks a fair shake. I have 8 pairs and they've all been excellent, so I thought I'd respectfully offer a different opinion.
I'm glad you are happy with Nick's. I used to like Nick's a lot too. I know where they started, where they've been, who has owned them at various points, people who have worked there, people who do work there, what they have stopped doing, what they still do, and where they are headed.
A fit-sheet you do on your own through their site is NO WHERE NEAR the same thing as a mail-in fit-sheet consulted by them. Will it get a majority of the people in a pair of boots they are happy with? Yes. You are apparently in that group and I'm happy you are. But that is part of the shift. A shift away from being as MTO as they used to be.
Is the McKay-Lockstitch they stopped doing, without lowering price important? Yes. Will it matter to you? 🤷♂️ I dunno,cuz I don't know you. But yeah, they are cutting a corner, and giving you less boot, without lowering the price.
Is not offering Norwegian Handwelt anymore important? Probably not. But it is again heading away from true MTO.
Just cuz you can't see where they are heading doesn't mean it isn't happening.
So I won't "agree to disagree". This isn't a political or religious conversation of opinions.
You are happy with your Nick's, and I think that's great. They still make a real good boot. Still make some of the toughest boots in the world. I have no interest in changing your mind. I share what I know, as someone who knows more than most and knows things I've been trusted not to discuss. If I'm not sure I say so or don't bring it up to begin with. If you don't want to believe me that's fine. If you don't care that's fine too.
If I've helped you I'm glad to have helped. I don't get paid for this. We aren't monitized or sponsored. So helping people is truly my motivation. But I'm not gonna argue you into anything, or out of anything. I present it, and if you watch you get to digest it and decide what you want to do with it.
Thanks again for watching, and I hope you keep loving your Nick's.