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Thanks Dale! ❤

@@riverpower9402 Frank's won't pay him. If he doesn't get paid it doesn't exist #shill

@@cloveroak5492 Good for Frank. I'm gonna save for a Ryker. I gotta ship to Ireland though which is a sting...

@@riverpower9402 one of my buddies lives in Ireland. His son lives in Chicago, so he has his Frank's sent there and when family makes a trip they bring them over for him. Sláinte 🥂

@@cloveroak5492 I see the ND4 is getting a lot of hate on Reddit! Happy times!

We were talking about the second step, in the "combination" there. Chrome then same as Shell after, which is one reason CXL costs what you it does. I don't disagree with what you said, but in the context of that part of the conversation there was no reason to mention the first step.

@@cloveroak5492 Oh, got it. I missed that. 👍

eBay is the best place I’ve found. What brand, model and size are your boots?

@@chrisofthew They're indonesian (Junkard) boondockers size 42EU (I don't know the conversion between US and EU)

Sent you a message on red it

Dang! and here I just got some new prancing boots!

When I was in the military we called that prancing around Drill and Ceremony. We wore the black full grain leather boots and we always kept them looking nice. Keeping them looking nice has nothing do to with how they are used. Boots are made to protect the feet of anyone who wears them while providing support a shoe can’t. Don’t be a gatekeeper, rant over

I feel so cheated because I got into my first laced 8 inch boots and I can no longer prance around in boots due to the stiff shaft I have to break in first. I'll report back when prancing becomes possible once again.

You can prance if you want to, you can leave your friends behind....🕺

@@cheekibreeki9155 the break in period can be tough but hang in there. Being able to prance in 8” laced boots is well worth the effort!

That seems like a good deal to me.

This video has definitely make me bookmark a seconds moc toe truman upland in British Tan Grizzly since I now have a pair in their 79 last and know exactly what's my minimum size in Trumans should be.

How well is this working for you?

@@chrisofthew so full context i didnt buy anything, i was one of those annoying "hello just want to find my size" people that day haha. however i did actually have a pair of dress shoes at home with a similar unevenness and a tongue pad there has helped quite a bit, just reducing instep volume basically. at the same time, its a piece of felt that has been slowly getting crushed down over time, so a bandaid solution at best.

Amen

We'll definitely think on whether we can make a full episode on that. 🤔 But to answer your question, there are some seperate thoughts going on with regards to wgat you wrote. 1st, is the arch, being more important than length. Which of course only applies to the very small number of makers that build an arch in. Which is mostly Spokane builders. There are ratio's and scales that occur in the human body. Some are more dependable than others. So what Mike said assumes typical proportions. But if someone's foot isn't proportionate you asked. It's really about someone having long toes or short toes here. Short toes, and the boot will overall be too long. That isn't really a problem. There are people that have been wearing normal no-arch boots 2 full sizes too big all their lives. They've done so because their feet are wide, so they had to buy boots too long to get the width they need. (I am one of those people) So there would be nothing to address for a short toe'd person assuming they don't trip themselves. Now conversely, if someone has long toes that is a problem, because the toes touch the front, which Mike did say is a problem. In that case leather piece ls would be attached to the last during building to make the boot longer. They can't give you are larger last because that would move the arch, but by attaching leather to the front of the boot they can make you a longer boot without moving the arch. The other things come down to simpler measurements for figuring out width, which is independent from what we have talked about so far. Plus there are other established additional measurements a builder can ask you to take if there are fitment issues. Or expected issues. Like if you know you have long toes that would be something you'd want to mention to the builder early on.

@@cloveroak5492 thanks for the response. I just wondered because I just got my first pair of Frank's and I frankly (lol) can't tell how much room is ahead of the big toe because the celastic prevents me from feeling it. I'd never considered arch placement before, just toe room and widest part of foot corresponding with widest part of boot. And all this is in reference to getting the length right, for the most part the width seems like an easy aspect to ascertain. It's like, you get a new pair of boots, what steps should you follow to make sure they fit right? Yeah idk maybe you're right, might not be enough there for a whole episode. Maybe just a quick reference video that could be shared to guys posting in the groups about fit.

@@evsnova74 I don't know if this helps, but I've never "found my toe" by pushing down on a toe box. I mean....probably a child in sneakers, but never anything as an adult. I've always judged it by lifting my toe upward, maybe even kicking the top of the vamp with my big toe. Somehow I am always able to "feel" where it is at with my toe instead of my hand.

@@cloveroak5492 that does help and explains a lot. As bad as celastic is, how would anyone ever be able to feel with a safety toe? Thanks Jeff

Love the idea of comparing different engineers and thinking about ultimate build(s) if you have full creative control. I'm actually going through that process presently anyway.

@@cloveroak5492 Do I understand, correctly, that you've ordered a pair of the Kreosote Parlor Skar-Spray gun engineers?

@@michaelwhynot7215 oh....no....Engineer's generally, not Gabbard's specificly. I am having some Bespoke Engineer's built off my own last, and am picking every single detail myself.

@@cloveroak5492 Ok. That sounds very interesting. I'm sure people would love to follow the process and see the results on BIB. I love these long format shows. Thanks

The downside of ordering from a one man shop when the word is out that he is the best.

I actually have a Beyerdynamic mmx300 which is a pretty nice mic headset combo these are all settings OBS is free and not great I got a copy of Adobe premiere and normalized all the audio so this will be re-released.

I suffer less since my PC has a proper speaker configured, but yes, Mike's audio usually sounds like it's in a different channel haha.

I just uploaded a Remastered version Mike worked on, so that should make everything better if you want to check that out

Fingers crossed for you 🤞

It would have to figure out the squish part. A suit sits on your body does not really support it in your footwear it needs to be snug and very slightly squish your feet not sure how the laser could get that part right. If that could be figured out it would work but I wonder how many sizing issues it would have since your feet are basically almost all joints.

Law Tannery in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Best Bison tannery in the world. This leather is their Palisades line, which they hold back their best hides to create. I did a YT video specifically on those boots if you want to check it out...

I'm glad you are happy with Nick's. I used to like Nick's a lot too. I know where they started, where they've been, who has owned them at various points, people who have worked there, people who do work there, what they have stopped doing, what they still do, and where they are headed. A fit-sheet you do on your own through their site is NO WHERE NEAR the same thing as a mail-in fit-sheet consulted by them. Will it get a majority of the people in a pair of boots they are happy with? Yes. You are apparently in that group and I'm happy you are. But that is part of the shift. A shift away from being as MTO as they used to be. Is the McKay-Lockstitch they stopped doing, without lowering price important? Yes. Will it matter to you? 🤷‍♂️ I dunno,cuz I don't know you. But yeah, they are cutting a corner, and giving you less boot, without lowering the price. Is not offering Norwegian Handwelt anymore important? Probably not. But it is again heading away from true MTO. Just cuz you can't see where they are heading doesn't mean it isn't happening. So I won't "agree to disagree". This isn't a political or religious conversation of opinions. You are happy with your Nick's, and I think that's great. They still make a real good boot. Still make some of the toughest boots in the world. I have no interest in changing your mind. I share what I know, as someone who knows more than most and knows things I've been trusted not to discuss. If I'm not sure I say so or don't bring it up to begin with. If you don't want to believe me that's fine. If you don't care that's fine too. If I've helped you I'm glad to have helped. I don't get paid for this. We aren't monitized or sponsored. So helping people is truly my motivation. But I'm not gonna argue you into anything, or out of anything. I present it, and if you watch you get to digest it and decide what you want to do with it. Thanks again for watching, and I hope you keep loving your Nick's.

I think you guys kind of hit on part of the problem later in the thing about guys who want to LOOK like they are wearing tough boots who don't NEED tough boots, so the lines blur between what used to be WORK boots that are now called "Heritage" boots but can't really be USED as work boots and expect the same results as the old work boots. Again, those guys would be just as well off to save the dough and buy the $250 boots instead of the $400 boots, but if they REALLY must LOOK tough, they're still paying $600 for Nick's or other PNW boots, I guess. I like to have dressy boots AND work boots but I guess I've paid more for some of the work boots than the dressy boots, so I hope they last a long time even if looking perfect wasn't the complete end goal like I said about the leather choices there before regarding Nick's vs. Frank's. But since I'm not using them for extreme work scenarios in the foreseeable future, I DO hope they last a few several good years. BUT this also why those Patriots can't be rebuilt apparently, either, that could be an issue for somebody else but they don't come in my size at that price so I'd be forced to spend the extra to buy from them. There was some video where the guy had bought 13 pairs over the years or something that I wanted to watch again but couldn't find last week. A lot of guys don't do as many follow-up vids as one would like.

Sometimes our perception of what we are wearing is much more important that other peoples perception. So having the heavier duty boot is still important there even if not utilizing it to that extent. Then there is perception of longevity. Even if not working it as hard as it is intended, it still may last much longer. Then there is the people that need the arch in the footbed, so they need the better ones regardless of what they do in them. Not clear what you were referring to when saying about why the Patriot's can't be rebuilt? The Patriots certainly could be rebuilt. Frank's has said they "could" be rebuilt. Nick's has snarkily said they would be happy to rebuild a Patriot several times. The leather in the Patriot is just as tough and just as thick. Frank's CHOSES not to rebuild it. They do so mostly because it is only like 40 bucks more to buy a brand new pair. But I expect it is also to not tie up their resources for making the rest of their boots. Guy who bought 13 pairs of what? A particular brand? PNW boots in general? Spokane brands in gerneral? Something else?

@@cloveroak5492 I had watched a vid where the guy said they can't be rebuilt, so I went from what he said but could not figure out WHY. Apparently HE was wrong, but like you said, mostly just not cost-effective BUT they still don't come in my size, so I still have no idea if they are more worth getting for some people, then. But Mike was just saying that the PNW boots WON'T last forever like all the commenters claim, so maybe I would prefer the cheaper ones if I could get them in my size. Yes, I found that other vid finally and I was less mesmerized watching now than I was when first saw it. I had thought it contained a lot of heavy PNW boots but mostly he had bought a bunch of Drew's logger and Frank's Patriot boots and was playing sizing roulette more than anything else as an excuse for owning multiple pairs. But since he was only spending $300 a time and not waiting four months to get them, it was easier for him to amass a collection in a shorter time than I also thought. He had also bought a couple Fire Commander ones even though he was not a firefighter, but didn't review them in detail and mostly just talked about the fit of the less expensive pairs and how the Drew's had a less shaped heel counter... So I guess a follow-up "wear" vid seems less essential now, but other guys have left me hangin', too. People can buy whatever they want, but a lot of the boot channels are guys who don't use the heavy boots for much heavy work so they can't give the greatest real review or scope of REAL longevity and all that.

@@Highland_Paddy I had inherited a pair of red wings pecos 10' safety boots that started their life on an oil rig. I used it when I was working in a construction site. Fortunately the tasks I was doing didn't expose the boots to stuff hazardous to leather longetivity very much and me being city based instead of working remote meant the boots received full TLC. I resoled those boots a couple of times but the uppers stayed in good shape. I've since stopped working in construction so they received a final resole and they live in my wardrobe now. There's bumps, scrathes, nicks and dicoloured areas on the leather uppers sure but I made sure to keep up my leather's brushing and manintenance especially after the day is done. The boots should be around 14 years old when I retired it. In fact, me attempting to prolong the life of that inherited boot was why I got into leather boots and leather care in the first place. PNW boots aren't immortal, but if all you're doing is standing around, walking and the occassional hike to the wilderness, in my opinion there is a good chance of them outliving the owner haha. I don't think a lot of people understand just how hard you need to wear your boots to wear them down. Even some of videos I've seen Nicks show their logging boots being rebuilt after 6 years of use, their uppers weren't beaten up as bad as you would expect, it just has the issue of the leather upper having accumulated tons of debris in tiny gaps that was starting to act as abrasive and wear out the leather and stitching. Understandable since since loggers don't spend all day everyday cleaning their boots thoroughly. I know my lumberjack relatives never did. Their boots were lucky to received a brushing. I however also know of some job fields where no matter what boot you get, they're done within 3 years, 5 if you are lucky or keep up your maintenance. The Chinese cheap boots would be done in 3 months from what I have heard.

@@cheekibreeki9155 Um, well I don't really know what the start date of the RWs was before you got them and all that is semi-irrelevant unless they were built BEFORE they all had to change tanning processes, so the point I got from Mike's statement was that you can baby the PNW boots all you want or mistreat them all you want and they will still basically disintegrate from drying out in some time frame? Should I estimate that at seven years or hope it is double? Maybe ten is a fair estimate for any quality boot??? I guess this will matter more if you are 25 than if you are 45? Will your boots last until retirement if you want to try and only own one pair for $600??? I don't usually take these kinds of equations very seriously because many of them require too many apples-to-oranges scenarios and apparently none of these guys think they can get mildew in their boots if they never change them out or replace their socks or whatever. I still think Chinese boots will last two or three years if you are just walking around a warehouse even if the leather is thinner than PNW, but the insoles will deteriorate much faster than leather insoles if you are using them almost daily. But like I said, I don't think everyone is automatically using the correct boot for each Use Case or that RW heritage are the same quality as they once were or whatever.

Yeah, some of those designer ones get pumped out of Chinese factories and bombard us.

@@cloveroak5492 There is a very recent video from Corter Leather about a week ago where a LV fraud department determined the authentic (but old) LV bags the man was cutting up to upcycle as wallets was fake because they couldn't tell it apart from fakes. The entire debacle is comedy gold

Yes that's my comment

That is one thing that has always turned me off from vibergs. The very idea that at their price range, most of their competition (though the PNWs are workwear forward) are handlasted boots. Even oakstreet at 500+ range have switched to handlasting. Machine stitching doesn't turn me off as much, for pieces without tension needed on them, like the task of joining together loose panels etc, I daresay machine stitching is the superior option. Viberg might be unbeatable for their last and leather choices but I'll rather risk it with Nicks for example.

You are right...but b4 it was announced, and at the pre-announcement event, that was far from clear. Lots of information said otherwise.