Soft Dome vs Metal Dome Tweeter: Audio Myths
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 มิ.ย. 2024
- Next in our series of Audio Myths, Soft Dome vs Metal Dome Tweeter: which one is better and why? It's hard to understand where this one started: the idea that you can tell what a speaker will sound like by knowing whether it is a hard dome tweeter or a soft dome tweeter is just plain false. In today's video, Andrew reviews soft dome tweeter benefits vs hard dome tweeter benefits, and what actually makes a difference in sound performance.
00:00 Audio Myths
00:48 Soft Dome vs Metal Dome Tweeter
01:28 Myth is Hard=Harsh
02:08 Crossovers
03:44 Example experiment | Design Matters
06:05 Metal dome tweeter
07:34 Soft dome tweeter
08:03 Pistonic | Soft vs Metal Dome Tweeter
10:00 Waterfall graphs
11:09 Benefit of the metal dome over a soft dome tweeter
12:26 Wrapping up
If you're interested in separating fact from fiction, check out our other Audio Myths videos: • Debunking Audio Myths,...
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This channel, so far, appears to be one of the best accidental discoveries I’ve made in a while. I’ve not had time to watch too many videos but so far it appears to be everything I like most about audio reproduction; science/facts that are used in different combinations to make a sort of art. The basics are simple, anyone can easily grasp them, and are easily built upon yet there’s no end to what can be learned and used. Unfortunately channels like this, that actually gets into the science behind everything, aren’t easily found. Not by the average person anyway.
I appreciate this series of videos. I fondly remember the articles written by Alan Lofft, Ian G. Masters, Larry Klein, and Tom Nouisane (I'm dating myself) that tackled these same myths, and decades later the audiophile community is just as full of true believers. I blame the audiophile publications that have a vested interest in perpetuating the $$$=better narrative.
Thank you for the comment, especially the comparison to those writers. 👍
Thanks for this. Maybe you can speak of the relationship between tube and solid state amplifiers and how they effect the sound of speakers.
My two way speakers have Focal drivers. The tweeters are acid etched titanium inverted domes. They are the smaller version of their 90’s vintage tweeters, td90k’s vs the td120k’s. They are incredibly accurate, bright and not harsh at all. My old speakers had peerless soft domes in them, which were popular in the late 70’s. They are rectangular in shape with the wiring for the voice coil in the front of the tweeter. They are not as accurate as the Focals, and don’t play as high in frequency, but they sounded pretty good when I built those speakers. This is solely my opinion, but they measure quite different from each other, the Peerless tweeters having an f3 of 19k, while the Focals have an f3 of 23k. So I believe my opinion is correct.
kennethcohagen3539 - I still have 3 sets of TC90x put away for future use, but I might end up ebaying them if I inherit my brother in law's Klipschhorns.
They sure are clean, fast & open w/o harshness.
Thanks for a great video. Cleared a lot of concepts.
Glad it was helpful!
I have 2 way speakers designed and built by a small local manufacturer. It has SB Acoustics alu dome tweeter and alu midbass drivers. I love its sound. Very smooth, balanced and calm, I can listen to it hours without any fatigue.
One of the best informational channels on audio out there. So glad I stumbled across it. I'm finding perception to be the #1 cause of arguments... Like opinions, everyone has there own perception on how things sound. I'd rather see real scientific evidence, rather than opinions/perceptions, before I make a decision. This hobby is full of "experts" who can't back up their findings with measured data or applied scientific means of gathering such.
Could be a self fulfilling prophecy in that designers know people expect a brighter sound from metal dome tweeters compared to soft domes and design the cross over network/L pads to match fueling the belief that metal domes are brighter than soft domes. I've read that myth a lot too on forums when I was starting my journey building my own speakers. In general I like the highs to be not too forward and bright so I picked soft domes, and it worked out well.
But it makes perfect sense that it shouldn't matter when building your own crossover, you just measure them and create a network that brings all drivers in line SPL wise. There's shouldn't be a difference in SPL unless you make it so. Ringing, nodes and resonance can be a problem but I tend to think it's so small in that range (at least with 3 way speakers) it barely makes much of a difference at a certain quality level (my tweeters are in the 40-60 euros range).
It's mainly for spatial cues, not so much to produce notes that are played. Brightness is mainly in the 1-3khz range according to Danny of GR-Research and I believe that to be accurate. I've crossed the mid range and tweeter at around 6khz and above 15khz I don't hear anything. 6-15khz is about 1.5 octave I think.
I might buy a good quality metal dome tweeter to try it out, I'm curious how it would improve (or not) listening to music and how it's different. It's probably going to make more of a difference in a 2 way speaker design.
Man! This guy is so smart, and he teaches clearly.
You guys do definitely make good videos, good job!
Thanks, glad you’re enjoying them and taking the time to comment 🙂
Im guilty of having held that myth. Your video made me reflect on how/why i had acquired that view. I think I came to that conclusion that soft domes sounded warmer/less bright not because i was comparing metal dome, but just comparing cheaper low grade products i owned in the past that may have had mylar or other plastic material, or a strip of cheap metal for tweeters, all of which have rather poor sound quality. Thank you for this...i will try to audition as many speakers as I can with metal dome tweeters without bias going forward.
Rick, that’s one of the most satisfying comments that I have received on ANY of my videos! I’m so pleased I was able to offer you a different perspective that has changed your approach to listening and auditioning loudspeakers.
I reinstalled back the metal tweeter that came with the woofer and tune the dsp again. The tweeter sound is now as neutral as the silk tweeter and in harmony with woofer sound.
Now to get crazy. Where would a compression driver and AMT fit? What do you think of those?
Thanks for clearing that out. Now I don't have to throw out my focal tweeters for a Silk dome tweeters.
Can you also clarify if class d amplifier is inferior to class ab?
I believe the myth about Class D being “bad” came about in the early days when the technology was immature and switching frequencies were low. Today many Class D amplifiers can equal or better Class AB in terms of performance.
so lets say you want it modifed to be brighter how would you make your klipch speakers hit higher im curious
When a Canadian is telling me something I have faith.
The one thing I wonder about is why some domes have a cap over dome and some don't.
Very good info
Thanks!
In the early 90s, I bought Heybrook HB1s with the same Tweeter used in Monitor Audio speakers. My young ears could hear the breakup modes about 20k. I'm also the kid who couldn't stand store fluorescents. BUT some $6000 ProAcs, 10X the cost, had metal domes in a hi-end store with no audible problems. Lesson: Lower-quality metal domes cannot match the finest metal domes for detail and distortion.
Are speakers for PA systems different from speakers for personal music?
Love your videos & here is a topic, directly related to "tweeters" Hi-RES Audio !
What do you think about it ?
Hi-res audio is a fantastic way to enjoy music. Thanks for watching & commenting.
Hi Andrew,
In this series of video could you please talk about impedance. I have a basic understanding of it but can't decipher all the different brands ways of describing this specidications.
For example spec shows Impedance 8 Ohms nominal; 4 Ohms minimum ??
While another one rates the speakers at 4 ohms but in the same description says its compatible with 4 , 6, 8 ohms ???
I got more concern about this when I bought my last av receiver. Sony 1080 .when I opened the box there was a big sheet of paper with a warning not to use it with speakers less than 6 ohms.
It is my understanding most avr are 8 ohms some 6 ohms. A lot of speakers coming out including yours are rated 4 ohms. ? VERY confusing to me all that stuff.
Thanks
What a coincidence! Did a video on this exact topic this morning that should cover all your questions. It's only raw footage, and should be coming up on TH-cam in a few days. In the meantime, you may find this video and the comments show you're not alone in being confused, which is why I did a second video on the subject today. th-cam.com/video/4yLIt9UZ9_s/w-d-xo.html
@@AxiomHomeTheaters thanks Andrew ill have a look at it asap and look forward to the upcoming video.
We can always count on you to explain the things that others don't.
Thanks from your "almost neighbour" from Orillia!!
Thanks almost neighbour!
Andrew, can you look at the impedance issue reversed? I have a 200 w Mcintosh multi impedance amp and 2- 50w JBL L100's rated @ 8ohms. The amp has speaker protection, will it harm the 50w speakers when connected to the amp at 4 olms? I'm thinking I can push more power from the amp to the speakers @ 4 olms, possibly driving better sound at lower volumes.
@@buddywalker8855 If your McIntosh amp has separate taps for 4 and 8 ohms, always use the one that matches closest to your nominal loudspeaker impedance for the most efficient power transfer. You will not get more power on the 4 ohm tap with an 8 ohm loudspeaker. The latest videos on this topic went up yesterday, the short one is just and excerpt of this one: th-cam.com/video/JaEgq7W8IZI/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for a great question and for watching.
Why aren’t tweeters cones. Is it due to the directionality of high frequencies?
They're midwoofers rather than tweeters, but I still wonder what's people's input on SEAS U18RNX/P VS L18RNX/P VS ER18RNX. Poly cone, aluminum cone and paper cone respectively. They all seem to be VERY hard choices as all of them seem fantastic midwoofers, preactically regardless of price bracket in theory... I don't know what these are capable of in practice however.
I don’t have any direct experience with those mids, but SEAS make some very nice drivers.
I ordered a pair of Paradigm 200B bookshelves, metal dome... They sounded beautiful for 20 minutes, then my ears would be ringing and had a headache... Sent them back and just ordered a pair of Wharfdale Dentons...
My ears agree with warner speakers with soft domes.
I’m going to bet it had as much to do with the balance of the speakers as the material of the tweeter domes.
Do we need to worry about the sound coming from the rear of the tweeter cone? Where does it go and can you get cavity resonances?
You certainly do need to worry about it. In many cases the pole-piece behind the dome is vented and damped to prevent resonances and reflections back through the dome. Might be an interesting topic for a future video?
@@AxiomHomeTheaters would be interesting. B&W seem to have gone to great efforts with their high-end tweeters.
@@nickdoughty518 Seems like a detailed tweeter video is overdue. Thank you!
Love the videos, but gotta say, for an audio channel these videos are too quiet... I have to turn up the volume and then switch to another video or an ad plays and its extremely loud.
The crossovers are important as they have diverse ranges for different speakers .
People saying metal tweeters are harsh have never heard a proper focal inverted aluminum/magnesium tweeter or have only compared cheap soft vs cheap metal
You didn't talk about resonance, which is the real difference and problem with hard dome tweeters. The harmonics produced from that resonance are like ringing a bell and that's where the metallic sound comes from. Soft domes have less resonance and dissipate it much faster. The downside of soft dome cones is lower resolution. Obviously, as you mentioned, the design is the most important fact to obtain a pleasant sound, but the main challenge for hard domes is resonance and the main challenge for soft domes is resolution, mainly at the highest frequencies. This should be very clear when designing a speaker.
It's a valid point…I did not go into too much detail on resonances. But I’m not in agreement with your assessment of different dome materials. ALL domes, cones, ribbons, whatever, will have breakup modes at some frequencies. It’s how they are dealt with and damped that is the most important factor. An example, I have a beryllium and a silk dome tweeter with identical motor systems, surrounds, and voice coils. The beryllium tweeter has a sharp, high-Q resonance at 30kHz of +6dB. The silk dome has multiple, lower-Q resonances that are below 20kHz and within the range of hearing. Which one will be better? The answer is, it’s not possible to say, but they both have faults. Which faults are audible?
Having listened almost exclusively to soft dome tweeters in my speakers for the last 40 years I can tell you that there is an audible difference. I initially perceived it to be a slightly colder quality to the sound of my aluminum domes. Keep in mind my custom speakers have two aluminum domes per cabinet. In truth, I adjusted to the "new" sound within a week and don't even notice it now but enjoy those speakers immensely.
It’s possible you are hearing a resonance or some other characteristic of the metal dome tweeters, but as you have found we tend to quickly tune out some small details after spending some time with a new pair of speakers.
Hey Andrew, The aluminum domes in question are the ones found RBH-MC-6C which are high quality. Unlike my soft domes I've never heard these metal tweeters resonance. Like you said over time we adjust to the different sound. There is no which one is better, just different.
@@adamant3844 That’s exactly the point I was trying to make…different, not better or worse!
Great video - very informative, just a shame you couldn't find a better mic. 😂😂
I like metal dome tweeters in my car because...... they match the color of my dashboard. Hehe
🤣
Most metal dome tweeters have a higher sensitivity so that contributes to easily over doing the highs
And new models Can handle twice the power of soft dome tweeters
You are correct, however a good loudspeaker designer would compensate for this during the design phase.
For your next video can you address the dual tweeters in your vp180 center channel?
Dual tweeters (and dual midranges and woofers) are used in the VP180 to greatly increase maximum power handling (volume) and lower distortion at very loud playback levels. I can certainly add this to the list of video requests. Thanks for your feedback, and for watching.
@@AxiomHomeTheaters there's a lot of criticism about lobing from side by side tweeters in a center channel. It would be interesting to see your discussion about why you chose the design you picked vs the tweeters stacked on top of each other. I chose the vp180 for my brother's theater (you've used his theater picture in some of your videos) and it sounds incredible. I don't notice any problem with the side by side tweeters but I'm interested in why it's measurable but not noticable to real ears.
@@Huub1e The quick answer to your question is that lobing will be present acoustically in any loudspeaker with 2 or more drivers. In a vertically oriented design, like a typical bookshelf or floorstanding speaker, these lobes will be measurable in the vertical response family. With a well-chosen crossover point and design these lobes can be mitigated and will usually appear at the listening position in the reflected energy from the ceiling and floor. In the case of a center channel, those lobes are now in the horizontal response family and tend to be far more audible as they as they appear in the critical side-wall reflections. Our research shows that having a large lobe to each side of the tweeter in the common woofer/tweeter/woofer configuration had a much larger negative impact on the overall sound than having more lobes where the cancellations are not as “deep”. Our ear/brain system seems to have an easier time integrating these smaller cancellations. That resulted in the placement of the drivers in the VP180 and is also why the tweeters are not side by side in the middle of the cabinet. Glad your brother's VP180 sounds great in his home theater!
@@Huub1e Looks played a huge part in that decision. That horizontal design goes against every thing a speaker designer would do. I've read on forum that so many disliked the VP150 with tweeters on the end. Unless the tweeter is just being crossed really low I see no reason for dual tweeters on a center channel. There really isn't enough drivers to warrant dual tweeters. And if very loud playback is need in very large rooms than using 5.25" mids and 6.5" woofer is probably not a great idea or at least going about it wrong. Pro audio woofers and horn loaded tweeters will get significantly louder than the VP180 with out the inefficiency.
@@chadmorris946 Actually, we found a significant improvement with dual tweeters in our blind listening tests during development. The reduction in distortion at higher levels and better dynamic capability with effects was clear. Sure, you can get more efficiency with horns and 15 or 18 inch pro woofers, but very few would want that in their living or family room.
I know in theory what you are saying may be correct - but I have yet to hear a metal domed loudspeaker I like .. and interestingly Wilson have moved away from the Focal metal dome to a soft dome tweeter .. and sound better for it.
Thanks for your comment…I suspect the Wilson differences are more to do with design than the tweeter dome material, but I’m only saying that based on my own experience.
Wilson had to make the change as Focal in and around 2004, quit providing raw drivers for non Focal-Jmlabs speakers. Properly corssed, I will take the Focal TDX120Td5's every day of the week and twice on Sundays! Hard to beat the accuracy and quickness of the almost perfect pistonic movement the Focal Berylium tweeters exhibit, they are simple breathtaking in a properly designed speaker.
I'm guess it has to do with mass. Fabric tweeters and paper woofers have less moving mass than metal type drivers. So the smooth or more transparent sound usually is a driver with less mass. A 6.5" heavy duty metal woofer is going to store more energy than a paper 6.5" woofer. There is always a trade off with every design choice. The metal tweeters are much more noticeable when they break up than fabric soft domes.
In my experience, I have not found any link between “smoothness” and transducer mass. While metal dome and cones can be heavier than silk or paper, that is not necessarily always the case. I have run into many thick paper woofer cones that weigh far more than aluminum and doped fabric domes that weigh more than our titanium domes. Thanks for your comment.
When looking for a set of loudspeakers I got this question a lot "what type of music do you listen to". What a stupid question. What I want is a loudspeaker that will as failfully as possible reproduce the signal. This is right up there with the notion that a center channel sounds better than a good 4.1 system. There are so many snake oil crap out there. And of course the more snake oil the more money you spend.
I'd argue that people who know what they are talking about are saying anything like that now, since beryllium is the most commonly used material in super high-end tweeters now. Then you got ceramic one of hardest substances around, that are even more expensive right at the top.
soft doemes hit more db at the higher frequencys i like it that way i dont like the low pitch sound of metal marerial to much db at 4k
We probably all agree that piezo tweets are for carnivals and fairgrounds 😁😁👍
people will tell one over another about Soft Dome vs Metal Dome Tweeter and viceversa but the reality is that most people listen with thier eyes. How hard can it be to close your eyes and listen.
Why hasent't anybody done a blind test a real practical blindfolded test where the listener is blindfolded and the listener can swith between two sets of speaker A/B but without knowing wich one is soft dome or metal dome.
Exactly, double blind tests are the only way to critically evaluate speakers.
what is that music on the background its really fcking enoying
We stopped using the music a few years ago based on this kind of feedback.
Why do you need a tweeter
Well, technically you don’t as you could use a full-range driver, but there are big deficiencies with off-axis and sound power performance.
Dude you do understand the concept of truisms and tendencies right? Saying metal domes can sound metalic and hard is not saying that ALL of them do. It's saying that more of them do than for other materials like silk. A generalization is valid if taken as a generalization not an absolute rule. Of course there are excellent metal domes but there are lots of nasty ones too especially those made back in the 80s. Just as there are both lousy and wonderful sounding soft domes.
One advantage soft domes have which people rarely mention is that they have lower moving mass than do metal domes. That makes for potentially higher resolution of low level detail. But again there are other facts that determine quality so it's not an absolute rule.
That last comment about fabric tweeters being better for low-level detail is interesting.
Easy soft dome tweeters are little children finger magnets and metal tweeters although they still attract little fingers don't collapse as easily
Excellent point, and why many parents keep the grilles on!
The shape of the tweeter does not change the sound at all!
when i mean metal i mean klipsch they demand qaultiy its true it does affect it this guy just deosnt notice it he probablly has wayy to goood of hearing to notice a differnce i have bad hearing and notice every little .5 db differnce titanium is annoying it like the treble is to low pitched on the highs dont get up theri i wish i new his eq sectret he prob doesnt use klipsch cuz their terrible at hitting high like a soft doeme
this is easy
metal domes - sound harsh and metallic.
plastic domes - sound unnatural and plasticky.
silk domes - soft and natural
non-silk soft domes - soft but unnatural.
diamond dome - clear and BRILLIANT
you just need to learn how to deal with it.
for example - take a regular AL dome tweeter, anodize it to a weird color like blueish-green and claim this is secret soft metal "alusilk" technology.
(don't forget to double the price otherwise it will not be convincing)
Sir, you have a part British, part American accent😊
I've heard some awful soft domes for the record though 😂
The myth originates from the fact, that most cheapo speakers have PP or Metal tweeters and soft domes are usually found in the higher range.
That said, I agree with your statement about "engineering is king", since I know how good even simple components can sound, when they are made with concept and reasoning and vice versa. But, from what I've experienced, "good sound" lies in the ears/brain of the listener. It is almost as subjectable as musical taste. Take ten persons and ten pairs of speakers and you will never have all agree on which sounds the best. Some people can sense the difference between a harsh/soft sound others don't. Add to the equation the variable of the amp used and the conclusion for finding the best sound is only one: listen for yourself to various mixes and matches of amps/speakers, without any preconceptions and outer influences, possibly blind folded. I myself was surprised, how I ended up preferring cheaper components (prize wise) over top of the line ones.
This is all very true. We can all be easily fooled by brand names, retail prices, cosmetics, etc. These things play a real part in how we perceive everything. But listening biases and preferences are all very personal, as you say. What I think IS important is for everyone to listen to any respected, well-engineered and neutral speaker design when shopping to re-calibrate the ears. It is very easy to live with something for many years, and however good or flawed it may be, we get used to the sound and use that as our “reference”.
The blind test you mentioned is already flaw in the first place. To compare whether metal dome really sound more harsh than a soft dome tweeter, you should design both speaker with a similar frequency response and crossover point. By pushing the output of the silk dome, of course you are making it sounds harsh and bright. What you did is simply stating a poor design crossover will sound bad no matter it is hard or soft dome tweeter and it did not show whether a hard dome sounds the same as a soft dome tweeter.
Why is the video and audio quality so bad in this video? Like there is a hissing sound in the whole video that sounds like the video was highly compressed before uploading to youtube! Not dismissing the content but you should make it better in future videos! Thank you for the lesson though!
I agree that metal domes can sound good! One of my favorite home audio companies is Klipsche and they use titanium domes as well! I love the part where you were talking about how a speaker is supposed to move and that a soft dome has much more bending rather than the dome moving uniformly as one body! I have heard this at high SPL in the soft dome home audio tweeters I use in my car.
Not sure why there are issues with the video, but we are constantly improving our setup. Thank you for sharing your experience with metal domes!
metal sounds metalic and unatural unless u put extremly high quality thruough it doem soft is more universal with quality
I have yet to hear a Corundum, Diamond or Ceramic tweeter that has ever sounded pleasant to me.
Likewise I have only ever heard 1 horn based speaker that I could ever listen to for a prolonged period of time.
I think some of this has to do with my own hearing deficiencies.
It blows my mind that 30+thousand dollar speakers can have unpleasant sounding tweeters......
I know this is totally subjective, but maybe these opinions get passed along and create these preconceived notions that poison peoples' mind and create a bias.
I’m not sure I understand it either. I think that many associate a boosted top end for openness and clarity…but it just becomes hard to listen to after a short time.
@@AxiomHomeTheaters absolute agreed. I have miself several sonos speakers in my house AND i have yo turn down the trebble eq to minus 10 witch It Is. The lower setting. I have that sistem for streaming convenice But It Is important to say how "artificial" almost every speaker sound today. Companies tend to make the people think that super hig end response in 15k AND above Is signal of super hig quality speakers. It sad But each day wey live More in a world of stereotipes. AND lies. Is Just like culturist take a look to old ones AND they Just look natural. Today they got Bellygut AND same whit sound. Is hard to find a quality natural sounding speakers.
@@AlexMartinez-hr5gm Yes, it’s a common problem. Many are so used to the tipped-up high frequencies that are common today that they find “neutral” loudspeakers dull sounding.
Soft tweeters are less likely to convey the metal of instruments, but many love them because - with prolonged listening and a volume higher than average, you get less tired of them, their sound is not so annoying.
I’ve never really found that to be true, it’s all about design.
@@AxiomHomeTheaters sorry - but you have a very amateurish approach. According to your reasoning - if you take two silk tweeters: a chinese tweeter with Ali for 10$ and a Scan-Speak 9700 for 200$ - they can sound the same ???? )))))))))
Beyond anything else, reviewers want their opinions on sound to be treated as authoritative truth. As with tv shows, if their statements are less spectacular than a competing reviewer, they lose market share. So exaggerations grow, golden ears claims are profound, and bullshit reigns.
You are best off simply ignoring all reviewers that fail to start by showing competent measurements. They don’t measure = they don’t have clue 1 what they are talking about.
There is a lot of validity to subjective reviews to express “real world” experience with a product, but I agree that should be backed up by some form of properly executed measurements.
Not a myth. Wait 20 yrs, youll throw away those hiss pots and put silk domes in every speaker you have