Two Way Vs Three Way Loudspeaker, Which Is Better?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 พ.ค. 2024
- Which is better - a two way or a three way loudspeaker? There’s a lot to this question. The move from a simple two-way with a woofer and a tweeter, to adding a third driver as a midrange (creating a three-way speaker) changes so many of the design aspects.
Chief Product Officer Andrew Welker shares his experience designing speakers, and the changes that happen with drivers, frequencies, cabinet build, and crossovers. Hang in there - he does get into the Family Of Curves, but first he gives you just enough detail to show what the complexity of adding a third driver does to the design process.
Looking forward to your thoughts and questions on this topic. Have you experienced the difference between a two way speaker and a three way speaker, and were they in the same model line?
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#asktheaudioengineer #midrangedriver #speakerdesign - เพลง
Andrew Welker, you are the f*cking man. Your videos are always educational with legit science and engineering explanations, something of a rarity on TH-cam. Then again, do I expect anything less from the protege of the two famous Ian's (Ian Paisley and Ian Colquhoun) and a direct lineage of the God Father of modern day loud speaker design, the one and only Dr. Floyd Toole?
I currently have some PSB and Revel. Once I sell some speakers to clear some room, an Axiom will be the next speaker in the house.
Keep up the good work.
Thank you so much for the compliment! It’s great to hear that you’re considering Axiom for your next loudspeakers. I have the greatest respect for PSB and Revel.
@@AxiomHomeTheaters The only way your 3 way speaker is better than a 2 way speaker, the problem of the 3 way speaker is that it is in a bigger sorrier sounding cabinet. Make it a 2.5 way speaker, with a simpler crossover, make the 2 woofers the same size, make the 2 woofers into 4 inch woofers (not 6 inch woofers) for better midrange sound & for clearer sound by using a smaller driver & it is neat that two drvers the saME SIZE TO USE A SIMPLER 2.5 WAY CROSOVER TO BE CROSSSED OVER AT DIFFERENT FREQUENCIES & dont crissober voth wiikers to play at the lowest frequency. Use the smaller 2 way cabinet. Make all drivers have their own separate cabinet inside the speaker. Have ports for both woofers inside their own separate cabinet chambers, & place one woofer on the outside side of the speaker. PSB has a speaker like this.
@@myronhelton4441
There are plenty of additional design challenges and compromises with the design you are suggesting here as well. The same variables apply. You might gain performance in one aspect, but compromise it in another area. Hoffman's Iron Law.
Absolutely amazing description. Thank you.
I started watching your videos. All very interesting and easy to understand. Thank you.
Well done Andrew your videos are always very informative,explicit and enjoyable, I am always looking forward to new subjects,I have tried recommendations relating to position/ placement changes with success,thank you
To keep it simple, I'll just add that given the competent design of both, a 2-way speaker will generally have lower sensitivity, less total output capability (lower max. SPL before distortion rises), and less dynamic capability due to more thermal & power compression when compared to the 3-way design.
And as Andrew mentioned, the directivity-matching of each adjacent driver and overall has the potential to be smoother and more linear in a 3-way design.
But if you want or need to stick with smaller 2-way designs due to space constraints, adding a good subwoofer that allows you to Highpass the 2-way main speakers to the subwoofer between ~80-100Hz can improve the 2-way speaker's maximum SPL and Dynamic capability, lower distortion, and obviously improve the low frequency extension and impact.
A smallish to medium size subwoofer can usually be tucked into the "dead space" of a corner in the room where it will benefit from boundary-loading, and shelving can be placed above it, or the subwoofer can potentially sit under a desk, or some other "unusable" or inaccessible space in the room.
Some manufacturers even make speciallized in-wall subwoofers that don't take up any additional floor space in the room at all. But acoustic measurements should be taken of various potential installation locations based on your proposed listening position in the room before these are permanently installed.
Great videos and info mate, thanks for sharing your knowledge and advice 👍👍🔊🔊
Cheers, glad you're enjoying them, and thank you for taking the time to comment!
great explanation i tried really to understand all has been said
I learned something today! Thank you!
Glad you learned something from this video, and took the time to comment, cheers!
Well done, Andrew. Thanks for the clear and concise explanation of a complicated question. I picked the M3's because the height of the M5's looked like they would tip over easier on my stands with animals. kids, etc. Very happy with the performance of my 2 way's in a 5.2 HT set up.
Thank you, I’m happy it was easy to follow! Great to hear that you’re happy with your Axiom setup.
Excellent information explained clearly. Thank you so much. I am quite intregued to know more aboot the design process of crossover circuits, specially in center speakers where the drivers are next to each other, but the sweet spot needs to be wide. A lower crossover frequency would be better right? But how does that match with the left/right channel. What are the real conciderations between designing say a VP100/160/180. I am trying to find my next left/center/right spreakers and the more I read into it, the more I think that the center speaker is king. Sadly it is not a sexy king as most reviews are about the left and right channel speakers. Everybody tells you to mach the center speaker with your left and right, but should it not be the opposite? As I understand it, your VP160 is the best design (low 500HZ x-over and tweeter over mid-woofer) but I understand the need for smaller (vp100, High X-over @ 2.7 kHz) and biger (vp180, needs a VERY low X-over at 150HZ is this because of how wide it is?). What are considerations while designing the center and its cross-over circuitry (size, cost, impedence)? Again, thank you for the lesson, I am trying to get my head around this.
Very good info
Thanks for sharing. Im a House and Techno Dj, planing to host small outdoor pop up events in parks. I want to get away with only using 2 x 15'' PA speakers without using subs. Will i benefit from using 3 ways speakers or can i use 2 ways ? Not sure if i will go for Yamaha or Mackie speakers. But again not sure if 2 ways will give me more bass than a 3 ways speaker ? Quality/clearity in the speaker means a lot to me to.
In a quest for improved dialogue in my 5.1.2 system, I bought a 3-way (different brand) to replace a 2-way center channel speaker. The 3-way used bigger woofers and a bigger box. The result ? On-axis "seemed" a bit better but the off-axis was significantly better.
Exactly what I would expect going from a good 2-way to a good 3-way design.
I have the adam a7x, how could I improve the mid frequencies? adding a subwoofer?
So, can a 2.5 with superior drivers be a noticeable improvement over my ml 60xt speakers ?
3 way any time for a band 🙌 💯
Good mid range ❤
I have a 2.5 way and in comparing it to the same model in a 2 way, there definitely was an improved extension in bass, more revealing and overall, more open, less congested.
What I would like to see in another video, is explaining why Axiom uses metal cone drivers versus polypropylene or doped paper cones etc.?
Part of this is covered in the following video, if that helps for now:
th-cam.com/video/AYG98-j8rDA/w-d-xo.html
Are there any manufacturers that make 4 way crossover systems for speakers?
My yamaha soundbar has tweeter, mid cone and subwoofer built in... is that good?
Hi sir which one is better for only...movies..2.5 was or 3 way...thanks
Does the 2 way crossover discard the midrange frequencies completely, or it still shares them between tweeter and woofer ?
With other words, if I build a 2 way speaker can I use 3 way crossover (connecting only tweeter + woofer), or it must be 2 way crossover specifically ?
I hope I explained my question correctly :)
If you use a 3 way filter on a 2 way set up like this, you indeed lose the midrange completely.
You'll have the low frequency for the woofer the high for the tweeters and nothing in between that for the midrange
interesting stuff, and how about MTM designs, basically you can get the benefits from the midrange and the bass from the 3 way, and crossover simplicity from the 2 way. i do recommend sealed box to clean up the midrange. and it might need a bit of eq if you dont have a subwoofer
Yes, an MTM configuration has some benefits, but it’s not a substitute for a true three-way system as both woofer/mids are carrying the same information. I have personally never been much of a fan of MTM designs.
@@AxiomHomeTheaters i value your input, thanks for comment.
smaller the mid woofers the better, 4 or 5 inch should be the upper limit and 1500hz crossover point to tweeter maximum should help a bit.
@@sudd3660 Yes, that would certainly help.
Also when you go to listen to speakers, hook up the speakers to a PA amplifier (which is linear in response) for testing and not a Hi-Fi amplifier/AV receiver (which are always colored in my experience).
You want to know how the speakers sound after all, if you know how the speakers sound driven with a linear response. Than when you hook them up to a desired amplifier/receiver, you will know the response characteristics (aka 'color') of that device. At which point you can start to mix and match until you have the desired combination.
You first need to know how good the horse is until you know what cart has to be bound behind it. Or you first need to know how good of a car you have before you know what kind of trailer you can put behind it. Same with audio... you first need to know the performance of your speakers before you know what amplifier/receiver goes best with it.
That's just my 2 cents anyway.
Also as for 3-way and 2-way, by physics alone it's obvious that the more seperation you have of mechnically moving membranes, the easier it is to drive many frequencies at the same exact time. Which in theory, when the crossovers are done well, should make for a better sound reproduction and thus better audio experience. It's just that with the more crossovers, the easier it is to also mess up the sound.
Wonderful content, but may as well ask an engine designer what is better: turbo or naturally aspirated. There is no "better". Which one performs better in a particular instance is dependent on a host of factors, and often times just opinion.
Always wondered if I would switch my klipsch to something that is 3-way if the difference would be very noticeable or barely an improvement. To go 3-way with Klipsch I would need the heritage but that is so out of budget.
I recently made the switch to a 3-way bookshelf (M5hp) from a 2 way Klipsch (RB-25) which I enjoyed for many, many years. The improvement in sound coming from the M5 surprised me. The clarity I'm getting from the 3-way design highlighted a muddiness that I didn't know existed in the RB-25. Your experience may differ, but I'm also able to listen to music for as long as I want to now without the ear fatigue that I experienced with the Klipsch. I otherwise enjoyed the Klipsches as they were bulletproof for me a lot of years, but I definitely don't regret the change.
@Alexandre Bedard Only you and your ears can decide if it’s worth it…a good dealer should be able to setup a comparison for you.
@ytj22 That extended clarity is one of the main benefits of a true three-way design…the mid frequencies are being handled by a smaller driver with better dispersion. You are also not carrying mid frequencies on a woofer which might be moving significantly because of bass content which can “smear” the mids.
I'm looking at the polk r700, but might just say f it and save up for the martin logan xt f100.
I f'in love YT right now. Thx
If it is only vocals and no music. Will a 3 way still sound better?
It's ok... when it's in a 3 way. With a hunny in the middle there's some leeway 😎🧑🤝🧑
So are you saying Klipsch rp line towers don't sound good.
Not one word about intermodulation? Because in passives that's always my main gripe, never heard a passive 2-way that stayed clean in the midrange when things got complex.
I have heard some older kefs that were very very well executed in this respect… just don’t look at the price tag!! 🤣
Axiom, this one is for you I have a 6.2.4 speaker setup, with one speaker at the back of my room, will this give me the same performance as 7.2.4?
In most instances I think it will be similar, but there is likely a benefit to having two rear surround and two side surround speakers that 7.2.4 will give you.
What do you call the M22?
The M22 is a 2-way, as both mid-woofers operate over the same frequency range.
@@AxiomHomeTheaters roger that!
I've built speakers as a hobby. And the most difficult thing for me is the crossover design.
Which is why we simply need a parametric eq system no different than a cheap pioneer car stereo that allows one to run the speakers without the moronic and inefficient passive crossovers that we should have ditched decades ago
For example
My pioneer has 3 sets of line outs
Two go to my 4 channel amp: each driver gets the signal from the pioneer within the range it was designed and has its own dedicated channel of amplification
Ontop of that! I can time align the entire setup
All of this on a “stupid” $150 car stereo and a nice $400 4 channel rockford fosgate amp
One deck
One amp
4 channels ( two tweets two mids)
No STUPID passive crossover ghetto trash!
That’s two sets of line outs
The third set is for a dedicated amp for a dedicated sub… which can also be phase or time aligned
So every aspect of the sound can be controlled on the “stupid” $150 pioneer deck.
Crossover
Eq
Time alignment
Everything
Now - ask for the same in the home audio desktop computer with studio speakers = you get to spend THOUSANDS
It’s absolutely insane and unacceptable that we’re still stuck in 1985 with moronic passive crossovers…
/rant….
I like a 3 way!
I am no audiophile, but I love audio and have listened to many loudspeakers. Maybe it's suggestion created by my appreciation for increased precision, but I tend to prefer speakers with three or more driver types to those with two. However, as you say, there are lots of other variables, and I have auditioned some excellent two-ways.
I always learn something from these videos and hope the series continues for a long time. Andrew, your delivery always makes you sound knowledgeable but never pedantic. You are a great spokesman for Axiom.
Where do I submit questions I wish you would address?
Thank you! Yes, I have also listened to many excellent 2-way designs over the years. You can happily ask questions here in the comments to any of our videos.
Would love to hear your remarks about a 4 way design - woofer, mid, tweeter, super tweeter..
And then I truly have to ask; is the science behind the M80 and M100 exactly that..? Woofers with thier different sized cavities and vortex baffles creating different levels/frequencies of bass and associated extension .. followed by same ideology of the mids section.. followed by x2 tweeters… one acting as a regular and one as a super tweeter via means of crossover specs..?
Love my M80Ti OG v1’s.. hope to one day get a pair of M100 HP’s with 2 mono-blocks with a late 70’s tube preamp… that’s my melting zone right there..
Thank you Axiom for all your hard work, delivering to us pure and utter bliss..
Certainly, there could be some benefit of going to a 4-way system, but we always need to keep in mind the additional crossover complexity and how that might actually negate any improvement by adding a super tweeter. The M80 and M100 do not have separate crossovers for each drive unit, like drivers all cover the same frequency range.
@@AxiomHomeTheaters thank you for putting my wondering thoughts at ease.. schematics, mathematics, crossover latency intersects - are all things I will not argue with you.. Love my axioms - keep up the good work! Owned and operated quite a few gems now: ax1.2 ax1.5 ax2+2 m3ti m40ti m50ti m60ti m80ti & as I said the 100’s / or / LFRs will be mine one day.. one day. 🤞
@@sevenlayers7L Thanks! LFRs are really amazing, BTW. 😊
Why can’t all of the crossover design be done electronically via a parametric eq with time alignment- my $150 pioneer car stereo does all of this… then I just run it through my 4 channel fosgate amp and boom: everything I need
I am lost on why we don’t advocate more for dedicated preamps with app based time alignment and crossover or windows desktop gui
Instead of all of the power lost because we can’t move past the passive crossover mindset?
Second question:
Why don’t we have a standardized plate amp design that favors right to repair?
Basically a modular plate amp design where the end user can plug and play as needed based upon their goals.
This would solve the problem around being forced to junk powered monitors when one channel stops working on the proudly made in china amp
I ask because larry fink is forcing corporations to give everyone sustainability guilt trips yet when it comes to right to repair or fixing broken plate amps = crickets
This is why I stopped buying higher end active speakers because you’re SOL once that amp goes bad!
I now want to go the DIY route with a HEDD / Eve / Adam audio 3-way design and save thousands
The road block seems to all be the same: the crossover issue… to me this is an easy problem to solve with an external preamp and dedicated amps but it would be more fun if the industry could use its imagination and make a modular plate amp design no different from building your own computer
I think emotiva offered this option but not for a plate amp style situation…
A mid-range driver is relieved of bass duties in a 3-way.
If 3 ways were so much better, they why when you were at Mirage did you unleash so many 2 way speakers on the market ? Most of the Mirage Bipolar Speakers are 2 ways.
You know what I noticed a equalizer should always be used to help
How about a 2.5 way?
Yes, absolutely there can be a benefit to a 2.5-way design. Normally this will mean that one woofer or mid-bass driver does not extend high enough in frequency to crossover directly to the tweeter and this can improve the vertical off-axis performance.
Bad analogy with cars. It's not the same as comparing colors. Why would you say such a stupid thing?
The 3 way has a properly implemented dedicated midrange that will always have the potential for better midrange than a two way. Only poorly implemented 3 ways fall short. A 7" mid woofer will not reach the same level midrange quality as a good lower mass 3"
When a dedicated midrange does not have to make bass, it's better. No doppler distortion (by compare. to a mid woofer making bass and midrange)
BTW AXIOM M22 and M60 sound like there is a dropoff between upper mids and treble. You should fix that.
I agree!
But
I think people can fix part of the issue with eq
The other part comes from genre and also!
I think people just get used to speakers over time…
I just got those t5v’s from Adam A and I def miss the vocals of my now failed m audio m3-6’s…
Problem with all of these speakers are the cheap plate amps OR you have to go external amp and dedicated preamp that allows for proper configuration
I believe this is why most manufacturers go the keep it simple passive crossover 2-way simply because that’s going to please most of the people most of the time
Once you’ve had a nice 3-way (lol) it’s hard to go back… 🤣🤣🤣
Its like 3 wheel vs 4 wheel cars. Not all 4 wheel cars are good, but you kind of know the answer in advance.
If radiators are pistonic, how do they create multiple frequencies,If there are multiple frequencies at a given time point?
Do multiple range drivers handle the same frequencies or are the crossovers designed so that they split up the work of that region?
I'm not sure about how much faster red is then black, but sh^^ , the Martin Logan XT F100. If someone can point me to a speaker that has a tweeter like the f100, not klipsch horn that makes your ears bleed.
Take a physics course.
Looks like, 3 way if you can afford it, 2 way if you can't...
I think a big room needs a three way design unless you only listen at high volumes. .
Bro waffling the entire video
And a sub makes 4 way, just saying
nope
The Question is NOT Nonsense!!!!
You Sound extremely Ignorant!
Your analogy is Nonsense.
A realistic Analogy would be is 16 wheels better than 8 Wheels for a Semi-Trailor Rig. 16 Wheels are needed to handle the load of a Semi-Trailor. 8 Wheels is insufficient. Just like 2-Way Speakers are insufficient in Sound Quality compared to Good 3-Way Speakers that have lets say a 1 inch Tweeter a 4 inch Midrange and a 8 inch Woofer. This carefully crafted precision engineered Speaker will provide a more complete listing experience.
The typical 2-Way Speaker will have a 1 inch Tweeter and a 5 inch Woofer. That is how the majority of 2-Way Bookshelf Speakers are made. Some have smaller Tweeters and only 4 inch Woofers. A few have 6 1/2 inch woofers but those are small in number.
The best 3-Way Speakers will have at least a 6 1/2 inch Woofer and either a 3 or 4 inch Midrange Speaker. These Speakers give you the full range of Sound impossible to get in the typical 2-Way Speaker.
3 Way Speakers are far Superior to 2 Way Speakers. With High Quality 3 Way Speakers you get the Full Range of Sound. You get a dedicated midrange Speaker which allows for the more complete Fuller Sound.
When Andrew Jones came out with a 3 Way Speaker for Elac dozens of Speaker experts said that his 3-Way Speaker was easily far Superior to every 2 Way Speaker up to 3 even 4 times more expensive.
I agree. I was about to comment his car color analogy made zero sense when a two way speaker and three way speaker have differing equipment. 🤦♂️
Dude, your Axiom is waaaaayy too expensive and it is a "dull" brand. No good at all. Vintage Philips Hifi is MUCH better!!! Greetings from Eindhoven, Holland 🎉