Subaru EJ vs FA Engine SMACKDOWN! Which one is better?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 มิ.ย. 2024
- We've built EJ engines, we've built FA engines; so how do they compare and which should you build?
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I could listen to this man talk engines all day
educated and concise with full factual explanations that are easy to understand even for a layman, hard to find on youtube.
Definitely want to see FA20 vs FA24
There isnt much difference, mostly bore size and minor difference to how oil drains to the pan.
@@motoiq Is it not true that the fa24 has notably thicker rods and cylinder walls than the fa20? I really appreciate your content. Oh, I just saw the part where you said you hadn't gotten one in yet.
@motoiq I thought the beehive valve springs were better? Rods a little bigger? Seems like doing the Tomei gears for the oil pump is wise regardless on an FA2X?
The 24 is about the same, maybe the rods are a little stronger, the bore is bigger, the engine on the stand is a FA24. It's not like the FA20 rods are weak, I think the FA can make the boost at low RPM and stresses them out. They don't bend until higher power levels are reached, like 350 lb/ft of torque, over 400 hp, a good tuner can manage your boost to keep you in the safe zone.
@motoiq I much appreciate your help and responses. To confirm, this all applies to the DIT version of FA24 as well?
I wanna say that, for me, this is the perfect level of detail. Not way over my head, not too dumbed down. "Accessible", I think they call it. I have a FB and its *still* entertaining.
The BEST engine discussion I've seen. Not boring for one second, this presenter really knows his stuff and spoke so clearly with minimal "ums" or wasted words. Seriously, what a splendid use of my time. I learned so much in these 30 minutes, I wish every salesperson at Subaru would show this video to prospective buyers to show them how great the new BRZ/WRX engines are. I have an FA24 WRX and got protuned to 315 hp and it feels incredible. I, and my EJ WRX buddies, all agree the new engine just feels so good.
FA20 WRX owner and yes the wave of torque from 2k to 4,5k is massive. Don't have to ring them out to have fun. As street car and snow drfter having all this torque down low makes them super enjoyable
By ring them out, do you mean like the copper orings?
The 24 isn't what you will think with the damn tuning FYI
@@ace7912 ringing it out means going high in the rev range in this context.
@@twanheijkoop6753 ah okay thx
@@twanheijkoop6753 ah okay thx man
For reference: My FBO (intake, DP, 93 tune) 2014 EJ257 STI makes about identical power as my buddies 2018 FA20 WRX (Intake, DP, 93 Tune, FMIC) - Although I have him on the very top end - 125+mph ---These FA20's and FA24's are definitely on my list as my next daily!
The FA20 is what should've been in the 2008 WRX
In any other conversation, this gentleman would sound like a surfer dude, but it’s awesome to listen to him talk about Subaru engines, where he appears to be a savant
Your wealth of knowledge is priceless, Mike. I absolutely love watching all your vids and especially the Subaru related ones.
Fabulous technical info backed with facts, experiences and delivered without hype! Thank you.
Learned a lot about my engine today besides running it for ten years now :-D Thank you!
Appreciate the effort you guys put into these videos. Currently driving a '22 BRZ with the FA24, great little engine so far!
The wealth of knowledge you have and share is amazing.
Thank you.
Great video, wow so informative and great to hear your valuable analysis
Great info,soft spoken,love this guy.
As a FA20 owner my tuner was surprised how much power he got out of the car with minimal changes plus e60.
I really enjoy watching these videos. This guy has such an effortless way of talking & sharing his knowledge, which is extensive. Good to watch no fuss, no clip bait,all style & no substance videos. 👍
Great stuff man, good work!
I cannot get enough of your content. Thank you
You guys made it! Thanks!
Phenomenal video and presenter. Give us more of these!
Badass break down this will help the community out thank you sir
Thanks for doing this video with such detail and sharing your knowledge!
Great Video Mike!
This guy Mike is a trip! He’s always smiling while conversing, which makes me smile and is very knowledgeable!
Love to see how engineering improves over time. Great breakdown!
Not with everything, EJ sump plugs last forever. The FA type uses a small 14mm head that gives problems. The FA and FB engines have heaps of oil leaks from the timing chain cases.
Wow. You are a wealth of knowledge, Sir. Thank you!
This was superb! Thank you. Would love to see a comparison to the EZ30/36.
Great presentation! Explains things well. I'm partial to EJs (I own 2) and had an FB (not an FA but I've driven one of those). Great food for thought.
Great knowledge and enjoyable listen, learned lots about my FA20
Love these videos!
Love this content 💪🏼💯
Great Vid!
Awesome video! Would love to hear more about the FA24Dit. These seem heavily de-tuned from the factory.
Technically every engine is "detuned" from the factory. Manufacturers will always pick reliability over performance especially for economy cars. When you turn up performance on a stock engine you are turning down reliability. They have limitation on the components just like the EJ and FA20 does.
Good Info.
Thanks.
FA24 in my 2019 Ascent and 22 WRX have been rock solid so far. Neither burn a drop of oil; it’s refreshing.
Good to hear. What oil you running ?
I loved my FA20, it was FBO E60 and lasted 3 years till I got rod knock. So your point about the bearings makes sense. I moved on to a built STi and I love this car way more. FA is still cool though.
Excellent presentation - no superfluous wordy crap and just the data and reasoning behind design differences. Old Navy nukes such as me appreciate this.
Great Video, great content all around.
When making these videos it’s hard to nail everything in one video but you pretty much got it all. Anything not mentions is just the peanut gallery picking the fly poop out of the pepper.
In regard to the oil pump observation about the small diameter holes. The one you said you bore open to port match the head.
Note: my fluid dynamics is self educated and Subaru STIS supplies no specific information about it other than oil pressure specs
I theorize the diameter of the outlet is set to help build oil pressure during cold engine startup.
**FA20 was designed to be a fast daily not a track car
The instant high oil pressure would help lubricant components. Additionally the instant high pressure would allow the AVCS to perform instantly.
I’ve learned that when questioning any manufacturer design, it’s import to ask “is this for engine longevity and/or emissions?”
Upon cold start, A stock un modified WRX, needs to ready the CAT within a specific amount of time; or a code will set. This instant high oil pressure will allow the AVCS to retard the timing and heat the CAT faster.
Also maybe the reduced bore was set to help with syphon oil from the sump.
I am honestly curious about all of this and would love to see oil pressure specs of stock vs modified using a pressure transducer over engine warmup.
Overall this is just me spit balling
Keep up the good work
We open the port to match the size of the main gallery.
great video!
Good information. A couple notes, though: while timing chains may be designed as lifetime fit, the history of modern cars necessitating massive timing chain system service after 100k miles or so due to component failure means that's not always the case. EJs do have a block oil vapor separator, at the back of the engine on the right side. They tend to leak and cause people to confuse leaky oil vapor separator covers for leaking rear main seals. SOHC phase II EJs (generally post-1997) also use roller rockers. I never cared for shim over/under bucket valves so the FA is a welcome improvement.
great info!
Wonderful video. Makes me feel great about my newly acquired 2021 WRX!
How alone I felt in 1998, with an '86 EJ-82 Turbo... bored and sleeved to 95mm making it a 2L from a 1.8L... even had the oil pump rotor sleeved so it wouldn't wear the block... JE pistons, crower cams... before Subaru's were cool I guess 😃
thanks for that,brilliant explanation
Please can you do more NA FA20 tips, builds, and info? Thank you!
That is coming
Tip: dont try to make big power on any NA subaru boxer. the heads limit the cam options to the point of making it futile.
@@BrewProof I’ve never had interest in making big turbo power out of the 86
@@motoiq thank you!
@@motoiqty!!
Thanks for the great video!
I have two cars with EJs, myself. Both are white. I have a 2004 sti and a 2010 sti. The 2004 is my built one, the 2010 is my daily. The 2004 has had about 619 whp (used to be 602 whp before I got the killer b holy headers max and re-tuned) at 35 psi for about 25k kms now. I got the closed deck short block from IAG. The 2010 has a rebuilt motor with proper pistons and all the oiling safety mods. Only power mods are a 3" catted TBE and a tune. It's only at 263 whp at 17 psi. It could have made more, but I had no idea the 2010's ecu can hold whole multiple tunes before I bought it. My wife doesn't like the feeling of acceleration, so I asked my tuner to keep it as low as possible for my daily. Kind of the opposite most ask for. He assumed I knew about the multiple tune thing. I might get it tuned for 19-21 psi eventually, or whatever the oem turbo can do.
Good stuff 👏
Part of it may be that fewer are tuned, but we see very few blown FA at my dealer. Mostly just rod knock on cars that are heavily tuned, or modified with no tune. Also carbon buildup, but thats rare on cars driven hard. No head gaskets, no oil burning. I just wish they came with unequal length headers for that classic sound.
Excited to see more fa20dit content! Would love to know more about making power! Im hyyyyype! Love my VA WRX! Hearing about how to helped the oiling issue was huge! Hopfully that help me not spin a baring!
It is pretty cool to see how many of the issues that have come up over the last 20+ years with the ej series motors have been addressed with the FA. Definitely not perfect but they have definitely started taking steps in the right direction.
Well I’d hope that they’d want to improve the flaws 😂
Protect this man at all cost, truly a subaru guru! Im gett8ng a TR now
A mechanic with the knowledge of what hypo and hypereutectic steel performance differences are is a man worth listening to. Metallurgy is no joke.
Eutectic refers to the amount of silicon in the aluminum, not steel.
@@jamesgeorge4874 No. Eutectic and eutectoid terms are applicable to any alloys, referring to phase transformations and lowest melting points. For steel, check the Fe-Fe3C phase diagram and find the eutectoid point.
I made a mistake of typing steel in my comment above without specifying the steel components of the pistons, as the Subaru engines blocks are made of aluminium alloys,
Pretty sure he's an engineer!
@@emel60 Except In this case, which it does. Please mind the context.
@@emel60 Sure, but this engine is predominantly aluminum. And the creator acknowledged it already. It is common to use hypereutectic alloy pistons, because they are strong, and hard, but they exhibit lower expansion characteristics than eutectic pistons, allowing tighter tolerances, and lower emissions.
Been waiting on thhis one!
Wake up, samurai, new MotoIQ video dropped!
Actually, I've never owned any Subaru, I just love MotoIQ.
Thank you for your information . Much respect 👍🇦🇺
OH automatic LIKE gonna love this!
Thank for the extremely informative information you've provided on the FA20 engine. Do you think a set of restrictors in the oilways that feed the heads would help to prioritize the oiling to the crankshaft and rod bearings ? Another thought is to make a spacer to lower the oil pan 25 mm, extend the pickup and provide oil control at the bottom for the oil pickup and what's you thoughts on this?
There is a post in the FT86Club forum talked about putting a restrictor at the heads' oil passage inlet, so more oil can flow into the block. But idk how legit is that solution, since our AVC needs oil flow from the heads.
The engine has better oil control by an order of magnitude. I think restricting the top end oil might help but since this engine has HLA's it could be an expensive experiment.
MAN, If this guy was my dad i would have the wildest Subaru & K24 swap ek hatch builds you could imagine 😅
I test drove a WRX with the FA and in stock form with the VF52 turbo, it felt just as lively as my Forester XT with downpipe + tune (TD04 turbo).
Great Video! What exactly did you do to the GR Cup Engines when you said Service-Rebuild? Where these blown engines and if yes what were the failures?
believe it or not when the cars crash the front cover gets destroyed and it takes out the heads!
Love the breakdown from professor Mike. Always appreciate the shared knowledge.
Thank you for shinning lights at the FA family Mike!
Knowing that FA2xDIT have fitted in a scavenge pump from the factory turbo, such that we don't usually see lateral G oil starvation events from the WRX, however can you please shine lights at the reason on why FA2xD (twins' engines) are particularly proned to lateral G oil starvation events? And what are some of the aftermarket solution that the twins can combat this without using accumulator?
I think it's oil slosh or oil consumption and people not paying attention to the oil level at the track. It is interesting that the GR86 cup car engines we have worked on have had bearings in great shape and those are legit race cars with high level drivers and sticky tires. I think running an AOS, the IAG baffle and pickup and if you are extra paranoid, the Killer B baffle that prevents oil from sloshing into the front cover area should stop it. Also any car needs to have it's oil checked and kept on the full mark when being driven on the track. You need to check every session!
@motoiq Mike I wish I can agree to that, running greddy baffle (basically timing cover block off + horizontal baffle) + 1 qrt overfill still didn't help some of my oil starvation events, with the fa24d
@@motoiq Like this video I clipped, i was running 6.5 qrts total oil with a greddy baffle.
th-cam.com/users/clipUgkx7wXXgkw2NjMS0ZJR2B0jT9yGsplDo-Pm?si=HZdB7D-u9z8Cvfa_
@@VinRZoverfilled it by a quart, eh?
@Adam-ub9nu there was supposed to be a link that I showed. But it's probably under reviewed. Yes the car was baffled and 1 qrt overfilled. There will be at least 1 qrt suspended within the engine when it's running, I checked that when the engine is at idle. Dipstick went from full mark to min mark, after the engine turned over.
I’m so happy when watching this guy.
Thank you min 21:00 on is what i came for! Is that all for oiling?
I'm in the "small" camp of WRX owners who don't plan on making very much more than stock power ever. I bought mine new in '21 and won't be doing any tune-required power mods until after the powertrain warranty is gone, even then I'm looking for around 300 HP only. I just want a fun, reliable daily and that's it. I've improved the driving performance massively just through suspension, brakes and shifting mods. That said, a large factor in getting the WRX over the STi was the differences between the EJ and FA. Having dealt first hand with EJs and their weaknesses I knew I wanted the changes the FA brought.
300whp is pretty good u won't be gapping v8 mustangs but u can def have a lot of fun
I have a 21' limited that's around 300 with a sway bar kit and some chassis bracing, plus Grimspeed manifold. Voided warranty at about 5k, but no issues so far, and car is infinitely more fun to drive! Spool-up happens way quicker now, so pulling out of hairpins is one of the car's most gratifying features. This is a great video; seems like if Subaru had chosen to produce more STIs, the FA24 would have been the preferred power-plant.
Im running my 19 stock. Just braces and exhaust and some wider wheels and performance tires and is quick enough not for racing but taking it on windy roads and in the wet.
Didnt buy my car to gap mustangs or race any other cars. Bought the car for the feel of the drive @mickdabz
Great call out with the oiling issues and potential fixes with the fa!
Have you guys done any na fa20 performance builds?
No, generally I talk people out of that. You will get a 2 liter with a narrow powerband and less torque in a heavy modent car.
@@motoiqgood to know thanks, i was researching if ej25 swap to fa20 is feasible
A mild build with a 2.2 stroker, cleaned up heads and mild cams will be nice but not an all out high rev NA build.
@@motoiq interesing, would it be like that with a turbo fa20 or fa24 as well? Just curious if it's worth the money to build an EJ or to try to swap to the newer engines
I would build the EJ as that engine is pretty developed. It's probably cheaper to fully build an EJ than sort out an FA and the electronics, then the FA would only be stock.
I've had my 86 at 400whp for roughly 35K KMs and haven't had any issues. Engine has never been opened so all internals are factory. Last time I had the car in for work i had a compression and leakdown test done, results were surprisingly good. I was not expecting this engine to last at all, but it has not skipped a beat. Trans oil did show some signs of wear when it was last replaced, but it feels exactly how it did when i drove it off the showroom floor. I never knew about the oiling issue on the mains. If i ever bend a rod and have to open the engine, ill be looking into the modifications you suggested to ease the restrictions at least. Thanks.
The Stock FA is stronger than the EJ.
Love the subaru content
My experience is limited but my FA24DIT was silky smooth and never had a hiccup over 60k miles
I work at a Subaru dealer and they've honestly been great. They were selling Ascents for about 3 years before we had a head off any of them, and that's in a busy 10 bay shop.
@@JohnUnit yeah I had a 2021 Ascent Touring. Other than the transmission being a turd off the line and in general and the low power it had compared to other vehicles in the same segment I couldn’t keep it forever. I started getting transmission slip at 10k miles. Driving down i29 in a headwind. Speed limit is 80mph I was doing 85mph and the headwind was 20-40mph. I noticed my speed was staying the same but my rpm’s were going up and down.
Gotta get my cars built by you guys
Please do a 4G63 vs 4B11 comparison and maybe some differences with honda/k20 also!
Good idea
WOW MIKE! MIND BLOWN! You are a river of engine engineering knowledge! Pure genius! Thanks for another super bitchen video mang!
Beware the One pull hero 🤣🤣🤣
MIkes got dirty jokes 🤣🤣🤣
I could listen to him talk all day
Man he knows his stuff.. can you do a review on the G16E-GTS on the Corolla GR.
Could you do a video on Subarus 6 cylinder engines the eg33 and the ez30/36
Former 400+hp fa20 owner, now in a 400+hp fa24. I much prefer the vb over the va wrx. I’m on different turbos for each so it’s not quite and apples to apples comparison (BL54x va vs g30-770 vb). But man. The VB is just so much fun to drive.
Also, thanks for the vid comparison! One day I’ll pick up an EJ sti 😍
Mike, is it true that FA is like 120lb + heavier than EJ? Looks like FA still has the dog leg exhaust too. Love this series it’s like a Masterclass with Mike! ❤
It is only slightly heavier. Like the case is only 1 lb more. The front cover is maybe 5 lbs more and the upper pan is 4-5 lbs more.
Didn't know the FA difference between SUB and TOY's DI only and dual injection, would definitely affect which one I'd buy.
I think walnut blasting your engine every 50-80k is a bigger deal/hassle than an EJ timing belt every 100k/10yrs (I've done it twice on mine).
How’s that built 1GR going? Any dyno numbers?
I cant speak on the FA timing chain, but replacing timing chains in necessary. Not as often as a belt by any means though. One example was my 2003 crv. When i held the chains next to each other the old one was an inch and a half longer, and i could fit a screw driver between it and the gear.
GF-6A oils should reduce timing chain wear.
Ej253 here. 2008 Impreza Outback Sport. Had it rebuilt and runs great.
I had one of those in an ‘05 OBS. Great little car, was loads of fun and it’d go absolutely anywhere, through anything, all while carrying a enormous amount of cargo.
Oh the toil of valve adjustments on an EJ. Those who know, know. Overall, I’m impressed with the improvements made on the FA!
Valve jobs on the FA SUCK, but its reward his high when done.
Would you say getting aftermarket pistons with lower placement of the first compression ring is the best reliability mod for the EJ at higher power?
Yes or the first one needed depending on how high the power you want is.
Would be cool to do a same style video comparing the 4G63T vs the 4B11T
4g63 engine is great!
15 years ago i swapped a 4g63 engine into a hyundai excel 😂 ultimate sleeper
Having gone from a 2020 WRX to a 2018 STI because it seemed like a natural progression, I have no issues or hesitation saying that I hands down prefer the FA from my previous WRX over the EJ in my STI. None. I put 36,000 miles on the WRX and have now put 17,000 on the STI since buying it. I am not joking when I say the first time I got the full taste of a proper launch in the STI, I was as hooked as those tires were. But that feeling is very out shined by the way the engine behaves the rest of the time, I am constantly on edge and babying it afraid it is going to disassemble itself. With every single revolution it feels like it wants to spread itself all over the highway, I signed up for AAA thirty years early because of it to be honest.
The only disappointment I could possibly express about the WRX was the open diffs in the front and rear, I couldn't care less about that DCCD nonsense. I have no doubt that if the opportunity to pick up a < 2022 WRX Premium 6MT with the "Performance Package" presented itself I would be calling the seller right away. Then I'd be following that call up with a search for an STI transmission swap.
Coming from 141k and only having oil leaks from the valve covers. You dont need to baby it lol i launched this thing more than enoght and rans really good.
@@Menace_stiDriving it around on the highway reminds me of taking my Dad's old F250 up to 70mph, it feels rung out and ready to 'splode. Plus IDK how the previous guy treated it for the first part of it's life.
@aland7236 probably time for some suspension mods and new mounts either tranny or motor 🤔
I'd be keen to see you talk about the GR Yaris/GR Corolla G16E-GTS 3cyl.
Powertune Australia just made 750+hp at the hubs out of a stock bottom end which is pretty insane
The walls are thick as brick😂😂😂
I will be getting one soon but from tuners in other countries, the engine has a reputation for being pretty strong already.
@@motoiq keen to see it!
Mike, when you mentioned how, on the FA, the upper pan directs the drain back to the pan through separate passages and tubes into the lower pan a light bulb went off in my head. Much like the oil pump passage to the mains being much smaller than the galley in the block, do you think the drain passage size is inadequate on the FA24 and could be the real culprit in the oil starvation when the GR86 and BRZ are run on track?
I don't think so. Like I said in the video GR86 Cup cars are not loosing engines and they are real race cars and the engine is totally stock
When it comes to the fragile Subaru transmissions, do you find upgrading to aftermarket gears/synchros allows for higher power tolerance or is it an issue with overall design of the casing?
You mean the 5-speed WRX transmission? Currently experimenting with blast plates and cryo/wpc. Probably isnt going to do it. We were not able to get the BRZ/FT86 trans to hold up very well. The Six speed STI trans is pretty damn strong.
FA has alot of improvements but it looks like there were some sacrifices made for daily use reliability. Thank you for the clear breakdown
Actually the changes were done to improve daily reliability, the only flaw is the oiling system and that is in the case of adding extreme power.
I have a 2017 86 with a FA 2.0L. I’m using 0w20 recommended viscosity oil made by Valvoline. Thinking of switching to signature series Amsoil instead. Do you think that is a good choice or should I just stay with valvoline gold 0w20?
I think you should run a 10w40 SF rated full synthetic if you are a hard driver.
@@motoiq thanks for the suggestion but it’s mostly a once in awhile weekend car or emergency ride when we need it. It’s 7 years old and only has 7,900 miles
The comment on the weak transmission near the end- did you mean the aisan trans in the 86/brz, or a subara trans? I think in either case, you did mean a manual?
Thanks
Thanks for showing the various differences between the EJ and FA engines. I didn't know how many ways the bottom end was beefed up.
I knew about the timing chain. That was the #1 reason I fell in love. I hate timing belts with a passion. I like the roller hydraulic followers.
I like that you mentioned the crank overlap. When I saw Subaru cranks for the first time, I couldn't imagine how they would be durable because the counterweights were so thin. I was used to thinking about inline engines.
I find it interesting that when the 4G63T was replaced by the 4B11T, Mitsubishi removed the hydraulic finger followers and used solid buckets.
Whenever I read about people adjusting valves on Subarus, usually they just leave it until the heads have to be rebuilt. Goodson makes a tool that can shorten the foot of the lifter bucket.
The reason some engines aren't priority main is because of hydraulic lash adjusters. In the old OHV engines with hydraulic flat lifters, that system was in use, otherwise the engine would make many annoying noises after startup.
That oil galley enlargement thing made me think about the Buick big block. Many people found that the oil system isn't good enough when getting more power. The guys reshape the oil pump to block interface to maximize flow. It helps make the Buick last. That's not to say it is a perfect fix.
Love these kinds of videos. They’re like brain sex for car guys. Question: iag seems to concentrate mostly on the EJ series for builds, is that just more their wheelhouse or a technical reason. From what you’re saying the FA seems better thought out.
12:00 i spy a WPC treated piston
source: i just got my WPC'd pistons in today 😍
My 2018 FA20DIT wrx gets 36+mpg on the freeway. What other Subaru has ever done that?
Your only replacing chains if they are stretched, that only happens if your late on oil changes with time, well maintained chain driven engines can last a long time
I will also say the Subaru dealer process for carbon cleaning doesn't need the intake pulled, and even doing 2-3 rounds of it will still be cheaper than anything where you re/re the intake. We have good results with it, even when it's bad enough that the car is throwing a check engine light. That's more common on the softly driven Forester XT anyway. Most WRX guys give it an 'italian tuneup' and blow/burn the carbon out daily anyway.
My opinion is the liquid cleaners don't work nearly as well as walnut unless you get in there and scrape it with picks.
27:46 I wonder how effective the kit that Subaru sells is for removing the carbon. This kit is basically a cleaner that is put through the intake - I had planned on doing this treatment at 50,000 miles.
The chemicals are not as good as walnut blasting, there are before and after pics on google if you want to see.
Out of curiosity wouldn't a water/meth unit like Snow Perf that mounts upstream keep it carbon-free? @@motoiq
I think it certainly may help. Possibly a lot.
thank you made my day about buying my gr86. I wanna know what you think about supercharging one can it hold up stock at 270 to 300 hp?
That should be easily ok but reliability depends on the skill of the tuner at that point.
@@motoiq sprintex is making one that can run off no tune giving like 30 to 50hp on the small pulley
Not recommended to do that with no tune.