I teach a high school principles of engineering course and will show this to my students. This is the first video I have EVER commented on. You have made/uploaded a very worthwhile video. You have shown how to mock-up, prototype, test, and evaluate results and BY FAR THE MOST IMPORTANT, show kids how to “fail” without crumbling into a heap of quivering jello. Well done!
He did miss one very critical piece. He didn't video the control. His "no dust collection" was without the supplied dust collection port. So a real test would have included that piece (both with and without actual vacuum) as two additional test points. I'd love to see how his super design compared with the original part.
This is one of the highest compliments I have ever seen paid to a TH-camr!! The fact that your video will be used in a classroom and could possibly influence the next generation of makers is pretty high praise.
I've used other (10" saws) previously and was pretty surprised with the speed and cutting ability of this Dewalt saw.I have bolted mine to a table to minimize movement which I highly recommend.This is a Great saw th-cam.com/users/postUgkxPeGkHOMe05FySypTOvYumxMn-xi39oRe with a light to see your cutting line (not a laser line).I'd recommend this saw fro anyone looking to upgrade from a 10" miter saw.
I like that you showed that it didn't work. I would love to see how it works out. I have found the same results in some of my 3D modeling and printing projects. I would be fascinated to see the result you come up with for the saw. I have the Bosch 12" glider and have been kicking around some ideas for a Dust Collection solution myself. I really liked the poster board idea cause getting the measurements off the machine has always been a struggle.
Check out Dan Pattison's efforts to improve dust collection on the Bosch. It may be an easy way to get you closer to where you would like to be. th-cam.com/video/pRlZGApo6vA/w-d-xo.html
I have the same 12" Bosch and found a downloadable file on thingaverse for our miter saws. It is "OK", slightly better than nothing. At best it redirects the dust inferiorly instead of up in the air. If you have a better option, I would be happy to be the guinea pig.
@@patricktomboc2142 This is Dan Pattison's video: th-cam.com/video/pRlZGApo6vA/w-d-xo.html Also, Keith here has a decent fix for thicker stock: th-cam.com/video/iDQSWgTmGFo/w-d-xo.html In summary of Keith's video, he said to add a rubber strip at the top and follow Dan's guide
I’m a full time finish Carpenter. The answer for me after years of trying to solve the dust collection problem was custom made dust “boots” from duct tape. The key is for it to be long enough and wrap around the side of the blade slightly. When it gets cut up from all the bevels and miters and compound miters I just whip out my roll of duct tape and make another one.
Hi Information: you should think about the blade like a fan. Then the chip spray-pattern will make sense. The saw-tooth spacing transports small air pockets around and they get reflected on the wood that has to be cutted. When you start to cut then the tooth cut wood chips out and then delivers them up and almost "around" the blade. The reason why the the chips or the "wood-dust" lands behinde and up is because the "Collecter-mount" creates a airdistortion, like whats happen behinde a car in a wind-channel. The form takes on the air-flow and transports the dust where the air can snuggle up to. Thats why we talk about "flow" air can flow like a river, or at least we simulate it that way in software. We build a simple housing around our shop saw. Some painter fleece that protects the floor from dirt. you can buy them for a few $$$ heres a link to a guy who gave us the idea. th-cam.com/video/sxpZGbsh4Q0/w-d-xo.html good luck stay safe =)
I think the primary problem is the chips have more velocity/momentum than the dust collector so the just power through draft and keep going. Other tools the chips get slowed down them sucked out.
@@fearlyenrage The first he talked about sounded as if he was referencing the suction rate? If the suction is too weak, it can't pull on the airflow. By the way, really loved your explanation! You went into the 'science' behind it, and that was really cool. You could say that I am a 'fan' of your explanation ;)
@@melissasilver4014 Hey =) you are bright, the suction has to pull the airstream from the blade into the vacumhose, thats true. But to achieve such a high suction he would really need a strong machine that moves a lot of air into a high velocity stream. But the conflict comes with hose diameter either the suction is high because the hose has 2" diameter and the machine 0,5hp or the hose has 4" and the hp needs to be around 1hp. A very high suction would be achievable with a "cyclon sucker" or a very strong "hoover". Like this one from Jhon th-cam.com/video/JwhPiB7vsVA/w-d-xo.html this build is feasible. Well i like it to explain to the "T". I write machine manuals, for clients, so i have to understand what im about to write or the manual will not be any help at all ^^ but back to you from where are you? =)
I haven't actually read every comment and this just might have been suggested already, but I would try and focus on the airflow that's caused by the turning of the blade ... that is where the dust will go. Now, when you introduced your duct, it changed that flow and created a new stream above and around your device. If you want this to work, you'll have to capture and direct that flow of air when you want it. I would try and get a couple of sticks of incense or something else that would create smoke and watch the stream both with and without your device. It should be very enlightening. Then, cut some cardboard and get an idea what it will take to direct that smoke effectively into your device. I hope this makes sense, good luck and I'll be keeping an eye on this thread. Cheers!!
I agree. The airflow caused by the blade is much higher than the vacuum. The blade is causing a high pressure area within the collector causing the dust to be flung everywhere but in the collector. A tighter intake might increase the flow velocity by the blade but if the blade is out performing the vacuum that will still have issues. Maybe increase the size of the opening and move the collection further from the blade. The goal being to let air turbulence slow down the flow coming from the blade before being collected by the vacuum. Another solution would be to get a higher flow rate vacuum so that the collector remains at negative pressure even when the blade is turning.
My mitre saw (Dewalt 12") really highlights the difference between pushing and pulling air. When I hook up a vacuum to the port in back, collection actually gets worse because the vacuum prevents the intake flaps from spreading the same and the dust deflects everywhere else. Without that (and with no actual change to the physical profile of the tool or collection), considerably _more_ dust goes into that collection channel.
The dust collection on my Makita 12" unit works fairly well. Like, you notice a massive difference if you forget to turn on the dust collection. It has a dual collection setup on it and the lower intake is a flexible rubber. It doesn't SOLVE the problem but it works. I love videos like this because it's totally great to show failures. It's how things go in a shop!
I have used a lot of different miter saws and the Makita has the best dust collection by far. Of course the Kapex is supposed to be better but at close to 3x the cost the Makita will work for me.😃
Time and time again most videos on the most successful dust collection have been #1 Festool #2 Mikiata saws .... why? I do not remember but one of the worst was the Delta saws. If and if you can solve this then you will have opened yourself to make a stunning amount of profit for yourself as an engineer.
I think to maximize dust collection it needs to move with the saw blade and be as near to the blade as possible to avoid blowing it all over the place. Great video. I appreciate that you showed how the first iteration failed. I work in R & D and not every thing works like we think it should the first time around. Keep up the good work Travis.
this was my first thought. design the intake to attach to the head, not the base. where the little stock redirect was removed. then at least its dealing with one position/angle and not the full gradient of positions.
Get a zero clearance insert with a possible vacuum port when you attach the two together. This way you have suction at the moment of cut and at the rear. Possible you may need to increase the suction power needed as well.
I think maybe it should be a little taller and wrap around the back more. Or figure out a way to make something that encases the entire arm assembly and move with the arm assembly.
I appreciate your honesty in posting a video that didn't have good results. You're absolutely correct that this is the first iteration. Step back and rework. I love that process.
Efficient dust collection is determined by several factors: -capture velocity; the capture air velocity must be greater than the dust generated velocity. Dust velocity will be determined by the calculating the tip velocity of the blade (blade circumference in feet x rpm) i.e. the dust will leave the blade at the FPM tip velocity of the blade. -air volume; the air volume is determined by using an industrial ventilation standard (Q=2.8LVX). Q=air volume, 2.8 coefficient, L=length of slot in feet, X=max. distance in feet from hood to source. -hood design; all nuisance dust collection hoods should have a flange around the slotted opening. Without the flange a large percentage of air will come from around the side of the hood instead of the front...where it will provide the best collection efficiency. For "fun" I ran the calcs and came up with numbers that are not even close to being realistic....which is why, for my saw (12" compound miter) I run a 2.5" hose to a shop vac and clean up afterwards! 😉 P.S. 35 years of industrial dust collection experience...
Very cool to see this laid out, my first thought was velocity of material. My second thought was a bigger trap would only help, but bigger hose would be way more practical.
I have a system I'm pretty happy with. I built a shroud/catch box behind my 12" chop saw like most of us end up doing. Them I used a contractor style TS dust collector chute (roughly 12'" funnel necking down to 4") offset under my chop saw, with the back of the chop saw fence bisecting roughly half the 12" circle. Hooked up to my 1.5 horse DC, it creates enough vacuum to back pressure the dust into the shroud area behind the saw. Every now and then I turn on the DC and brush the saw dust from the corners of the shrouded area into the DC shroud. It's not perfect, but way better than anything else I've tried or seen used by others. I think the origins of this idea is from Norm.
I have come to the conclusion after many years of using a chop saw, that they are engineered to fill your shop with sawdust and to cross cut wood. The best way to use a miter saw in your shop and to keep the flying sawdust down, is to use it outside your shop. The next best at keeping the flying sawdust down was a flexible, removable wide mouth pickups just behind the built in saw dust pickup port. Even though the shop still had saw dust everywhere, I was amazed at how fast the dedicated shop vac filled up using this modification. Hint: Look into using deflectors under the long arm supporting the saw head to keep the high speed stuff in the area where the air is being sucked up, till is slows down and can be sucked up.
Cross cutting is actually just a byproduct. The miter saw was invented as a dust generation mechanism. In a weird coincidence the inventor discovered it could be used to cut stuff.
This is my favorite TH-cam video you’ve posted so far. So much thought, design, and time invested in a result that didn’t go as planned. I shared this with my wife and she loved it too. Keep up the great work, thanks for keeping it real, and please keep engineering to solve this issue we all struggle with!
I’m glad to see someone is addressing the dust issues with these models. I have the Delta Cruzer and wow the dust. Looking forward to seeing your future results!! Keep on pursuing Shop Greatness!!
That's why I left my miter saw on a rolling bench and take it outside when I want to do some cutting. Easy to blow off with the leaf blower and the shop stays a lot less (not completely) filled with sawdust.
My saw isn't sliding, but I have the saw enclosed in the back and then put two masonite boards either side with cutouts just big enough to clear the downward motion. The masonite, just leans on the back of the fence. If I need to make a miter, I just pull the two boards. I originally designed the back to curve down to a dust collection port for a shopvac underneath, but I found that it worked so well, that I didn't need the suction. I removed it and just vacuum it out whenever it gets full. That left space to put a big drawer underneath to collect the cutoffs.
with the plastic cowling and dust collection hose - be cognizant of static. The concentration of sawdust to me suggests either an unanticipated airflow or a static field. Also I would consider introducing compressed air to direct material where you want it to go. Just some thoughts. I read through a good number of comments, but apologize if this has already been mentioned
@@bobmagnets1522 this concept is used on cnc routers...granted larger chips but in this case helps give some control on the velocity and direction of the dust
The dust goes off in an angle from The blade in all directioms. I would keep the Stock collectors in addition to a more funnel shaped printed collector. The opening of the collector has to be as wide as possible. At least that eorked for my saw. Plus I use a record power cgv 286 with 2 Motors and a 100 mm hose split in 2 70mm Ports to suck that saw. In the end only power is power I guess 😎
You mentioned the key at the beginning: momentum or velocity of the chips. If you widen the capture shroud, a lot, and make it deeper, you have more surface area at the entry as well as more volume in the acceptance chamber will mean less fighting the bounce and turbulence generated by the blade.
@@aaronblackford981 You're right, the vac can only do so much. But the dust already has velocity, in a direction not compatible with the catchment area of the current design. The vac can't redirect that energy to where the current structure wants to accept it. If the receiving area takes more of the splashed material, the vac only has to collect it as it falls, before it bounces away.
One thing I think gets overlooked when talking about dust collection is speed of cut. A certain cut is going to generate a certain amount of dust; the slower the cut the more the dust collection has a chance to collect it.
True, they are designed with very small ports for the amount of material being removed. My jointer has a 4 inch port and removes way more material per second (bigger surface area being cut) and i barely see a spec of dust.
When using a compound miter saw, you will adjust the miter way more than you will adjust the bevel. Your saw table width won't allow you to adjust full miter from left to right. Fix that first. Then good luck with the dust. Best way I have found was to build a cabinet around the miter saw.
I have a cheapy early 2000's Delta 10", yes I still have the starter one. I too have built a box around mine, however I also added a hose up to the dust port on the top of the blade guard. This gets "most" of it, however I still haven't figured out a way to get the saw dust the comes off perpendicular to the blade.
Just ran across this video and was quite interested in this sophisticated attempt at a solution. I bought a Festool kapex because of the claimed superiority of it’s dust collection but I am quite disappointed at how little it collects. My solution was to buy 2 veritas magnetic dust chutes and epoxy a large steel washer on each side of the rear housing and “Y” off the single dust collection hose to the 2 chutes, this was in addition to the built in dust collection. Like your solution miter and bevel cuts will remove a chute from one side or the other but usually not both. There may be no perfect solution but I like where you’re going. Keep up the good work.
I too have often thought about the dust collection systems available to the modern woodworker who, even to the present day , usually has to put up with that uncontrollable workshop mess! I watched your video with great interest as also I have watched two others who have also gone to extreme lengths and had partial success. At 76 years of age I spend more time thinking about problems than actually physically dealing with them….like dust collection. What always comes to my mind, when stepping outside of the normal box, is the consideration which never seems to be given to A) the high speed of the dust coming off the saw blade which, via our own efforts is then directed into the path of the very much slower speed of the suction draft. It would be fairly simple to utilize the blower side of an extraction unit to direct a flow of assisting air onto each side of the saw blade to encourage better removal of the dust by pushing the dust into the suction draft! Just a thought Thomas.
Respect. You showed all the steps, you showed that it did not work, you showed that there are more ideas to come. Thank you. I never comment on videos, but I had to comment on this one. Good luck on the next prototype.
Travis, please keep going and solve this dust issue. The Ridgid Mitersaw is my next adventure, and I would fully support purchasing one of your 3D prints to add to my shop. Good luck brother.
Great video! The Festool Kapex is considered by many to have the best dust collection in this category. You might look at what Festool has done which is completely mounted on the blade hood. I could not afford a Kapex so I went with the Makita LS1219L. Makita uses a two-prong approach with a hood-mounted design similar to the Kapex and a static rear-mounted dust catcher. I thought this should work great but soon discovered that it's not very efficient in terms of air flow. A strong shop vac didn't work well but a Bosch VAC090AH dust extractor did. From my experience, the suck behind the catcher is an important factor as well.
I did a video on something similar on my channel, have thought about redoing it using 3d printing. I think the biggest difference I noticed was having a top on the box as most of the dust shoots up. I used brush strips which allowed the dust shoe and blade to pass through but kept all the dust inside the box to get sucked away. Worth a shot!
@@Rmharnisch hahaha hate to self plug, but I went through basically the exact same pain points Travis did here so I very much feel his pain and frustrations haha.
@@RingsWorkshop I get it and I plan on doing something similar with my setup. I recently watched your videos on not only the miter saw but the drill press dust collection. As an Engineer I love the way you methodically tackle those issues AND how you handled the shop organization. Brilliant work sir, please keep it up. Travis, you as well. I love watching your videos and frequently return to them as I'm building out my own shop currently. Keep up the good work friend.
@@ShopNation thanks man! Yours came out awesome. Always appreciate seeing the failed attempts and what you improved upon and why. Helps make all of us better,
I think if you change the upper piece to take into consideration the coefficient of the flux capacitor and maybe reboot the matrix to maximize the left ventricle I think that should help get the results you are looking for. Keep up the shop greatness. I know I am! 👍🏼😎
Build a box behind the saw with a decline at the bottom with a hole for the dust to drop down into another box for collection.It works.I used it in the cabinet shop.
Definitely keep the failure videos coming, I relate to this a lot! 😀 With the benefit of hindsight, I think the saw blade functions as a pretty powerful fan that creates a surprisingly large zone of high air pressure. The cause of failure is that the collection system is a weaker fan and therefore lacks the volume/capacity to capture what comes off the saw. In short, what you made is a drinking straw trying to capture Niagara Falls. For a next iteration, I would try to make a system that uses the force coming off the blade rather than fights against it, and of course larger capacity.
Appreciate your videos. Most post the “look how great it … ‘insert what you may” ….(works) (assembled) (stained). Like many, If not all of us, deal with the same problem and done our best to address it. Your videos are real and truth …. here’s the problem, here’s what I did to try to fix it…nope didn’t work.
You have to remember that with a cut the wood stays on the blade for a short amount of time, you'll have to figure out the angle which it gets released from the blade. Maybe get in touch with some high speed/slow-mo camera guys for content. But with the dust port on the miter saws generally above from the company is just the easiest. As seen below a curved collection with dust port on the side but it might get in the way of the arm. Or CNC a new arm to have the dust port out of the side.
As an X trim carpenter now registered nurse home shop guy I completely agree with your comments on dust collection with chopsaw. I finally got around at us adding dust collection to my home shop to save my 60-year-old PACU RN now lungs and would love this for my old Makita saw that still is one of the biggest workhorses I have. MAKITA LS1214FL 12" DUAL SLIDE COMPOUND MITER SAW WITH LASER AND FLUORESCENT
From the research I’ve done on mitre saw dust collection you would have been much better off getting a Makita. The two dust port collection is very effective. A good portion of the dust follows the blade around circumference and bypasses the single port at the back. A blade shroud collector is the difference.
I have the same vacuum and separator under my miter saw. I also have a Jay Bates inspired station. The enclosure that i have around the saw only really serves to keep dust from flying out away from the box. It does a pretty good job pulling in floating particles. I still have to periodically vacuum out the inside of the enclosure.
Film the saw in low light with a narrow beam flashlight lighting up the sawdust flying off the blade. Identify the pattern and the spread and then redesign accordingly. You need to observe and understand the pattern of dust your particular saw is producing before designing a solution.
Señor CAD Designer here. I don't understand how these companies don't offer standard accessory options for dust collection. For this application, it could be done in a week by one designer, including testing "first articles" from fast, accurate... expensive.. printers. Open the released assembly and sub assembly files, create an envelope based on combined views from all the different worst case scenario arm positions, then use flow analysis tool to tweak collection volume and efficiency. They could even offer two parts. One for dedicated 90* and another for all arm settings.
Love love love this type of content, pushing the boundaries is one of the reasons I bought a 3d printer, good job man, remember we learn more through failure then success, so consider this a win…
Hey Travis, I tried to solve the same problem with my 12” delta saw years ago. When I looked closely at the spray pattern of the ejected dust, I could see that much of it was simply going wider than the narrow factory boot that is right behind the blade. My solution was to take a plastic floor sweep and used some of the material to make “wings” that effectively widen the boot, blocking the overspray so that much more of it finds its way into the boot. I can send you a picture if you want. The wings track with the saw for miter cuts as well, but mine just a single pivot, not rails or compound knuckles.
It is sometimes reassuring to see that others can spend a lot of time over thinking and building a gizmo that should, in all respects, solve a problem…..only to have it not work. Most days I think it’s just me with that luck! Keep slogging along!
😊I spent this last holiday weekend trying to solve the same problem on my new DeWalt cordless miter saw. The sawdust seems to travel in three vectors: Strait back at a low, middle, and high angle depending on which portion of the cut you are making. Long story short, this requires three different pick-up points for a vacuum , and a single 5 horse vacuum does not have the power to provide enough suction. forget being cordless on a job site and good luck not blowing breakers.
Basically, you had an example of laminar flow interacting with the dust particles. Instead of vacuuming the dust, the 3d printed part acted as a low-pressure barrier and the high-pressure debris/saw dust bounced off the part opening and around the side. Without the dust collection, the stream was directed to the bevel gauge. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you tried to use the saw with the 3d printed part installed without the vacuum on.
I got makita Makita LS1019 and it's dust collection is the best I ever used, but after some minor adjustments(I just rearranged dust port to work parallel on two flanges rather than in sequence one after another) Even kapex was second to this one in dust collection. It is fairly simple, just two dust ports with rubber sleeves, works fine on miters. Most of the dust just bounces off the extendet fence(It just can't be moved a little sideways, only removed completely)
As many have stated below greater air flow will always help. Velocity is always the answer. Travis today another video popped up on my suggested list from Rings Workshop. He headed down the same path as you with trying to design a better dust collection system. He had pretty good results with his methods. Together y'all may solve this issue. Interested to see what your final design looks like. One thing Ring Workshop could have done is to put collection hoses on both sides. His brush design improved the results dramatically. Thanks for the video.
I tried the whole shroud across the front of two cabinets on either side of the saw. Basically there was a very narrow window for the dust to go trough with over head dust port. All it did was create a vortex with dust swirling around and very little getting collected. I scrapped the whole thing. What seems to work best is a simple shroud around my dust hose set back away from the saw. Not perfect but it works pretty well.
Same thing with things I tried on my Bosch Glide, especially when I remove the on-board dust collector. I noticed in videos that the one that people say that works best, the Festool, it seems the most important part is how robust the on-the-blade chute and suction is, and as I found out with mine, that is the minimal you HAVE to keep - which of course it is the hardest to design around. Yeah.
Deck mounted dust collection on miter saws are secondary to blade shroud dust collection. You have to have high suction at both points to perfect it. I have a 12” dewalt slider that is nearly dustless even in MDF
@ShopNation I have made something very similar the slot where the blade goes my design has a adjustable clam shell design I can vary the degree of angle deflection. Also the semi round curf in the back of a clam shell causes a nice little eddy for concentrated collection. Perfect spot for a small dust port. Mine has two small dust ports and two standard it collects everything except for some rogue bits. Mine is a Rigid 12" laser guided compound miter saw.
I have the 10" version of the Delta Cruzer. LOVE the saw!! I think I might know where to start: Close the upper dust port tube from the original dust collector. Let me know if that works. Hey, How about offering to all of us who have this saw your finished product. What a money maker for you!
I modified my Bosch Axial Glide with an old rubber fishing boot. Using the existing dust collection fitting, works awesome. Top down collection rather than bottom up seems to be the ticket
Travis nice upgrade! Sorry the dust collection didn't work. Hang in there. With all the technical advice provided in the comments the solution should be found to address your issue. I'm glad you decided to publish the attempt. It made me feel like I'm not the only one that stuff like that happens to. I placed the dust collection ports to close to the saw on the enclosure I built for my DeWalt. Some of the dust gets collected but the majority of it collects at the back of the box. One day I'll relocate the ports to the rear of the enclosure. I look at the upside in the fact that the dust is at least contained.
Bro! Hats off to you for the ending! Ive recently thought about building a hood and using a skirting (canvas material) that can move with the miter and compound (like an accordion) after watching this im convinced just some saws have terribly designed collection ports and might just be happy with what i got so far.
Great video. Don’t you stay up to many nights figuring this one out. Anybody with an army of three-d printers is going to come up with something. Absolutely a fun, learning, watching vid. Thanks for taking the time it took to put it together. Good luck solving your problem. I’m looking forward to seeing how you capture the saw dust on your new Rigid miter saw. From Missouri
Thanks so much for sharing this! I love that TH-cam makers are showing their efforts when things don't go according to plan, which is what happens to most of us most of the time! :)
You need a higher velocity and volume of air flow around a shroud that in compasses the back side of the saw! I solved this problem by buying a hood that looks like a baby bonnet and connected my 5 inch DC line to it! No more dust in the air or on the shop floor or stand.😁🛫
Maybe add a zero clearance plate that is ducted to the 3-D printed housing. This might add enough down draft so that momentum of the wood chips/dust would be slow enough to be captured by the housing. I used cardboard to make a dust collection housing and I found that most of the chips/dust hit the front of the housing, so I didn't bother repeating that design in plywood. Looking forward to seeing your next iteration.
I bruteforced my miter saw dust collection, have so much suction that the blade spinning doesn't overpower the vacuum. I bought a way oversized and generously priced (due to the pandemic) dust collector from Laguna, that runs on 220V. I have it hooked up to my CNC router and hooked to my miter saw station, barely get sawdust on the ground anymore, the major downside is hearing protection is not optional anymore in my shop when its on. Hate to say it but you are either going to get really fancy and study the airflow caused by the blade spinning and try to work with that or go bruteforce.
I've tried many different ways to suck up the sawdust from my Bosch 12" sliding miter saw over the years and finally settled on building a box that attaches to my zero gravity stand where my saw sits mostly inside the box. I made two 4" ports into a Y fitting and then a 4" hose to my Harvey G700. I get very little dust outside the of the box now. This is a similar strategy that those miter saw fabric tents offer but without the space needed behind the saw. I'm going to add some directional pieces of wood inside the box to help direct the air flow to the ports and see how that goes because I get a fair amount of dust in the box. I still can go 45 degrees in both directions but cannot compound miter unless I make a wider box. Not sure if a shop vac has enough CFM to work like a 2HP dust collector, so good luck!
One thing I've noticed on my Dewalt saw that I've hooked up a 3D printed dust port to and had success with is that mine is set back quite a bit toward the wall compared to yours. Not sure if dust and chips slow down more back there and that helps the vacuum catch those but that's my theory. Having the vacuum close to the blade means you're having to overpower the speed that the blade is slinging the chips.
Makes sense. Hood with multiple ports seems to work quite well in a few YT vids. Port close to blade means high speed dust off blade teeth hits an invisible wall of slow moving air at port so gets deflected away from the port rather than sucked in. Like a peleton of cyclists racing on wide flat road hit narrow hill or hump back bridge. They crash into riders in front who have slowed or bounce or steer off into ditch or down river bank. It's a pattern in many bike races and riders have suffered extreme injuries and death. Particles bigger and slower than saw dust but momentum probably greater and the model is remarkably similar! Nobody has solved the problem because each such pinch point is different. Ambulance is equivalent to after cut clean up! Lots of padding to protect against bones hitting metal and stone kerbs, corners, signposts helps clear up 'dust' that hasn't got stuck to the surroundings
I like this video, it's about the process at this point. Hopefully there will be success as the outcome in a future video. I'm with you, rooting for Travis on the next iteration.
I tried the same thing with my Delta 12" slider but I did not get nearly as far as you did. Really like the idea of the profile duplicator. Some of those shapes are impossible to capture otherwise. I'm with a lot other commenters that airflow could help a lot. I have a dust collection system that is 6" pipe in the ceiling and stepped down to 4" for the wall runs so I have standard 4" blast gates. My idea was to use a Y adapter to step down from the 4" to two 2 1/2" ports and then run each of those two lines to either side of the "contraption" which would essentially double the airflow that you had. If work ever stops getting in the way I might give it another shot. You have inspired me.
You may not have solved the problem, but you earned my subscription. I wonder how long the dust persists in the gullet of each tooth? Does the dust get thrown off the blade immediately, or does it stay down in the gullets for several revolutions of the blade? I feel like a lot of dust actually gets thrown off the front of my saw, having been carried around for several blade revolutions before it hits the blade guard and/or bounces off the stock and out into the shop. Maybe your device pulls the dust off the blade, but doesn't move enough air to pull it into the vacuum stream. I've built the ubiquitous box type hood and won't say I'm happy, but I live with it for now.
I have the Delta Cruzer 12 and have the same issue. I think the only thing that can save this is the miter saw tent thing that goes around the entire saw. When you cut, the saw dust is blowing past the point where the suction is and it just goes all over the place. Another idea would be to somehow encase the saw blade similar to the track saw. Keep grindin' dude & I love your content!
Travis, I haven't read through all 440 comments. But I think a few have touched on what I see. The velocity of ALL the particles before the dust collection is fast which cause it to go literally everywhere. After you add dust collection you have created a small negative pressure area that slows the particles but not enough to be vacuumed. That's why they end up on the back little horizontal surface and not everywhere else. Also it looks like a lot of particles exit the blade at a higher angle hitting the saw frame between the first hinged joint and the back edge of the saw blade. These particles are then bouncing off the sides 3D printed part rather than entering the narrow opening. Maybe open the top and face of the 3D printed part to allow more particles to enter the negative pressure area of the vacuum. Looks good, I'm excited to see if you can solve it.
Festool Kapex has probably the best collection of any miter saw and folks have improved that even more with something called the Sawstache from FastCap. It's basically a broom behind the blade. Flexible bristles that can move over the fence, but not so flexible as to be blown back by air movement.
I love that you are trying to tackle this. I would add zero clearance insert and how about increasing the mouth of the collection to match the width of the upper fence, or replace the upper fence with a 3d print honeycomb pass through. Increasing mouth will reduce suction but your missing so much anyway. I really hope you figure this out. I’m allergic to most types of wood dust, but I love wood working. Dust collection is a must.
I just subscribed. I'm absolutely impressed that you took the time to fully edit a video in which you failed to solve the problem at hand. That's honesty, and I look forward to watching you sort out the problems with your design in the next video(s). Great job detailing the design and engineering process as well.
Travis try looking at the bottom of the miter saw as the track where blade runs in the base is the is the one place everyone does not take into consideration when looking at dust collection, think of the miter saw as a upside down table saw. The table saw always has dust collection above the blade as well as below the blade even with a zero clearance insert, plus a table saw blade rotation is towards the operator. The miter saw has the same principle as the table saw except the the teeth of the blade rotation is away from the operator on the table deck. The reason miter saws are difficult to get really good dust collection is the bottom of the saw is always blanked of with the deck of the miter Station. The underside of any miter saw has perforations in the bottom to let the wood dust and chips to fall to the floor when they are used at job sites on saw horses. So when you see miter saws being used their is always a big pile of saw dust under the miter saw. The problems with miter stations their is no down draft to the under side of the miter saw so the air pressure that is made from the rotation of the blade is channelled to the back of the saw. The more suction to the back of the saw produces more dust accumulated higher at the back of the saw. I hope that this is helpful? I am a metalwork engineer and I have alway seen the bottom of the saw blocked off by the shelf it is on. Yours Philip Burrows in Overton on Dee, Wrexham, Wales, UK.
this reminds me of another dust collection video for a band saw that initially went very wrong. They needed more airflow in the direction of the dust port. Maybe remove the baffle and put a 1.5in hole opposite the dust port. this will create a cross wind and will turn the sawdust in the direction of the dust port faster. also the dust collection could be starved for air and this would solve that too.
My compound miter saw has a bag that hangs on the back and does something. I know because I always have to empty it. Instead of overpowering the dust with chutes and ladders. Try using the momentum that is already there and funnel into a kinda of passive collection system.
More airflow needed. Suggest 2 dust extraction ports located where dust streams are concentrated. The entrance "mouth" of the extraction chamber should be wide and large to catch dust spewing in various directions. In addition to the extraction chamber, fashion a flexible curtain of some sort to encircle as much of the blade as possible without obscuring the cut line. This curtain will catch and direct dust into the extraction chamber as well as being flexible enough to take whatever shape is needed during angled cuts too. I'm curious to see what you come up with!
I put a smooth sheet metal shroud behind mine and have a 650 6 feet to the left through smooth stove pipe 4" dia ... doesnt catch all of it but does maybe 75% + different saw though. I'm hoping you succeed as this could be really good !
Try dust collection beneath the saw as well. I cut a hole in my bench about the same size as the saw's insert. The down draft really helped reduce the amount of dust that went to the back. I did this in addition to the supplied dust collection shroud at the back and I found that it worked better than expected.
i like that idea. when used together with above-the-plate collection. Also, the shop vac does not pull that much volume, and why not try it with a larger volume dust collector?
@@mriguy3202 It actually didn't occur to me until you said it but ya... I was using my 1/2HP dust collector with a 4" to 2x2.5" Y-adapter to split the hose to both top and bottom. Still, you'd think that the higher velocity of the shop vac would be better than the volume of the dust collector given the size of the dust particles... but now you've got me wondering about this. I think some scientific-like testing is in order!
I too do the downdraft. It works really well in conjunction with the blade-level collection. I think Travis may have discounted the "shroud" idea a little too quickly. Some do really suck, but the box I've built is amazing.
Excellent Video, You showed a great deal of thought and ingenuity in your process and the result was less than satisfying. Bravo, you've shown us all that we can come up short and the world still turns. You've probably already figured this out but I think the fly in the ointment is the velocity of the dust coming off the blade.
It was a very solid effort. 👌 I don't have a sliding miter saw, mine is a standard Dewalt. Until very recently, I didn't use a vac system at all, just that little bag that attaches to the back. Honestly, It seemed to work fine. Filled with dust nicely with minimal stray dust. I guess I just accepted that there wasn't any true way to get 100% of all dust, I dunno. Now that I do have a vac system attached to it (6.5hp Ridgid vac), I haven't noticed any more or less dust by using it. I just don't have a bag to empty any more. However, my non-engineering school thoughts on the "why and how" the problem is created to begin with is that there should be 2 dust collection ports. One in the back, which obviously already exists and then the other should be a port hole on the top or side of the blade shroud/shield. And of course, the shroud should have those vent slots covered/sealed so it's an enclosed shroud. Since the blade spins upward, it seems logical that's where the majority of the dust goes...and then just falls down while the lighter smaller particulates (dust) get pushed by the air created by the spinning of the blade...which is probably why there are slots in the shroud. Notice how "some" Circular saws have a dust port located in the rear SIDE of the saw, as well, the shroud of a Circular saw is a solid piece, not slotted. Notice when using a Circular saw without a vac attached to it, where that dust accumulates....right there on the backside...as though the saw is pooping dust where you just cut. So, in my mind (in theory), that seems to be the solution. Copy the engineering on a Circular saw and do that to the miter saw.
Something that I would try is to use a brush. I would buy a brush that would wide enough that it can be cut in 2(lengthewise). I would then mount them so that they sit vertically and just behind the fench. The port used for dustsucktion should cover as much as possible on the backside & top.
It's really great to hear someone approaching the problem from the standpoint of an engineer talking about particle velocity, point of generation and air handling capacity of the collection system.
Now Available!!!
Dust Chute for 12" Saws: etsy.me/3tChMhw
Dust Chute for 10" Saws: etsy.me/3Bo1ywZ
I teach a high school principles of engineering course and will show this to my students. This is the first video I have EVER commented on. You have made/uploaded a very worthwhile video. You have shown how to mock-up, prototype, test, and evaluate results and BY FAR THE MOST IMPORTANT, show kids how to “fail” without crumbling into a heap of quivering jello. Well done!
Great comment Brian! 👍
He did miss one very critical piece. He didn't video the control. His "no dust collection" was without the supplied dust collection port. So a real test would have included that piece (both with and without actual vacuum) as two additional test points. I'd love to see how his super design compared with the original part.
"heap of quivering jello" - haha!
Way to go, from another engineering teacher!
This is one of the highest compliments I have ever seen paid to a TH-camr!! The fact that your video will be used in a classroom and could possibly influence the next generation of makers is pretty high praise.
I've used other (10" saws) previously and was pretty surprised with the speed and cutting ability of this Dewalt saw.I have bolted mine to a table to minimize movement which I highly recommend.This is a Great saw th-cam.com/users/postUgkxPeGkHOMe05FySypTOvYumxMn-xi39oRe with a light to see your cutting line (not a laser line).I'd recommend this saw fro anyone looking to upgrade from a 10" miter saw.
I like that you showed that it didn't work. I would love to see how it works out. I have found the same results in some of my 3D modeling and printing projects. I would be fascinated to see the result you come up with for the saw. I have the Bosch 12" glider and have been kicking around some ideas for a Dust Collection solution myself. I really liked the poster board idea cause getting the measurements off the machine has always been a struggle.
Spoiler alert
Check out Dan Pattison's efforts to improve dust collection on the Bosch. It may be an easy way to get you closer to where you would like to be. th-cam.com/video/pRlZGApo6vA/w-d-xo.html
I have the same 12" Bosch and found a downloadable file on thingaverse for our miter saws. It is "OK", slightly better than nothing. At best it redirects the dust inferiorly instead of up in the air. If you have a better option, I would be happy to be the guinea pig.
@@patricktomboc2142 This is Dan Pattison's video: th-cam.com/video/pRlZGApo6vA/w-d-xo.html
Also, Keith here has a decent fix for thicker stock: th-cam.com/video/iDQSWgTmGFo/w-d-xo.html In summary of Keith's video, he said to add a rubber strip at the top and follow Dan's guide
I’m a full time finish Carpenter. The answer for me after years of trying to solve the dust collection problem was custom made dust “boots” from duct tape. The key is for it to be long enough and wrap around the side of the blade slightly. When it gets cut up from all the bevels and miters and compound miters I just whip out my roll of duct tape and make another one.
Lol, didn't see that ending coming. Look forward to the next iteration!
Hi Information: you should think about the blade like a fan. Then the chip spray-pattern will make sense. The saw-tooth spacing transports small air pockets around and they get reflected on the wood that has to be cutted.
When you start to cut then the tooth cut wood chips out and then delivers them up and almost "around" the blade.
The reason why the the chips or the "wood-dust" lands behinde and up is because the "Collecter-mount" creates a airdistortion, like whats happen behinde a car in a wind-channel.
The form takes on the air-flow and transports the dust where the air can snuggle up to. Thats why we talk about "flow" air can flow like a river, or at least we simulate it that way in software.
We build a simple housing around our shop saw. Some painter fleece that protects the floor from dirt.
you can buy them for a few $$$
heres a link to a guy who gave us the idea.
th-cam.com/video/sxpZGbsh4Q0/w-d-xo.html
good luck stay safe =)
I think the primary problem is the chips have more velocity/momentum than the dust collector so the just power through draft and keep going. Other tools the chips get slowed down them sucked out.
your words make no sense.
@@fearlyenrage The first he talked about sounded as if he was referencing the suction rate? If the suction is too weak, it can't pull on the airflow. By the way, really loved your explanation! You went into the 'science' behind it, and that was really cool. You could say that I am a 'fan' of your explanation ;)
@@melissasilver4014 Hey =) you are bright, the suction has to pull the airstream from the blade into the vacumhose, thats true.
But to achieve such a high suction he would really need a strong machine that moves a lot of air into a high velocity stream.
But the conflict comes with hose diameter either the suction is high because the hose has 2" diameter and the machine 0,5hp or the hose has 4" and the hp needs to be around 1hp. A very high suction would be achievable with a "cyclon sucker" or a very strong "hoover".
Like this one from Jhon th-cam.com/video/JwhPiB7vsVA/w-d-xo.html
this build is feasible.
Well i like it to explain to the "T".
I write machine manuals, for clients, so i have to understand what im about to write or the manual will not be any help at all ^^
but back to you from where are you? =)
I haven't actually read every comment and this just might have been suggested already, but I would try and focus on the airflow that's caused by the turning of the blade ... that is where the dust will go. Now, when you introduced your duct, it changed that flow and created a new stream above and around your device. If you want this to work, you'll have to capture and direct that flow of air when you want it. I would try and get a couple of sticks of incense or something else that would create smoke and watch the stream both with and without your device. It should be very enlightening. Then, cut some cardboard and get an idea what it will take to direct that smoke effectively into your device.
I hope this makes sense, good luck and I'll be keeping an eye on this thread. Cheers!!
I agree. The airflow caused by the blade is much higher than the vacuum. The blade is causing a high pressure area within the collector causing the dust to be flung everywhere but in the collector. A tighter intake might increase the flow velocity by the blade but if the blade is out performing the vacuum that will still have issues. Maybe increase the size of the opening and move the collection further from the blade. The goal being to let air turbulence slow down the flow coming from the blade before being collected by the vacuum. Another solution would be to get a higher flow rate vacuum so that the collector remains at negative pressure even when the blade is turning.
The incense idea is an excellent suggestion!
Engineer approved. Smoke study for the win.
My mitre saw (Dewalt 12") really highlights the difference between pushing and pulling air. When I hook up a vacuum to the port in back, collection actually gets worse because the vacuum prevents the intake flaps from spreading the same and the dust deflects everywhere else. Without that (and with no actual change to the physical profile of the tool or collection), considerably _more_ dust goes into that collection channel.
@@33brianmorris I was just about to say the same. Smoke study. See how the air is actually flowing. Lets REALLY over engineer this baby!!!!
The dust collection on my Makita 12" unit works fairly well. Like, you notice a massive difference if you forget to turn on the dust collection. It has a dual collection setup on it and the lower intake is a flexible rubber. It doesn't SOLVE the problem but it works.
I love videos like this because it's totally great to show failures. It's how things go in a shop!
I have used a lot of different miter saws and the Makita has the best dust collection by far. Of course the Kapex is supposed to be better but at close to 3x the cost the Makita will work for me.😃
Time and time again most videos on the most successful dust collection have been #1 Festool #2 Mikiata saws .... why? I do not remember but one of the worst was the Delta saws. If and if you can solve this then you will have opened yourself to make a stunning amount of profit for yourself as an engineer.
I think to maximize dust collection it needs to move with the saw blade and be as near to the blade as possible to avoid blowing it all over the place. Great video. I appreciate that you showed how the first iteration failed. I work in R & D and not every thing works like we think it should the first time around. Keep up the good work Travis.
this was my first thought. design the intake to attach to the head, not the base. where the little stock redirect was removed. then at least its dealing with one position/angle and not the full gradient of positions.
"it needs to move with the saw blade and be as near to the blade as possible " Like Festool part no. 471316
Get a zero clearance insert with a possible vacuum port when you attach the two together. This way you have suction at the moment of cut and at the rear. Possible you may need to increase the suction power needed as well.
I think maybe it should be a little taller and wrap around the back more. Or figure out a way to make something that encases the entire arm assembly and move with the arm assembly.
I appreciate your honesty in posting a video that didn't have good results. You're absolutely correct that this is the first iteration. Step back and rework. I love that process.
Efficient dust collection is determined by several factors:
-capture velocity; the capture air velocity must be greater than the dust generated velocity. Dust velocity will be determined by the calculating the tip velocity of the blade (blade circumference in feet x rpm) i.e. the dust will leave the blade at the FPM tip velocity of the blade.
-air volume; the air volume is determined by using an industrial ventilation standard (Q=2.8LVX). Q=air volume, 2.8 coefficient, L=length of slot in feet, X=max. distance in feet from hood to source.
-hood design; all nuisance dust collection hoods should have a flange around the slotted opening. Without the flange a large percentage of air will come from around the side of the hood instead of the front...where it will provide the best collection efficiency.
For "fun" I ran the calcs and came up with numbers that are not even close to being realistic....which is why, for my saw (12" compound miter) I run a 2.5" hose to a shop vac and clean up afterwards! 😉 P.S. 35 years of industrial dust collection experience...
Very cool to see this laid out, my first thought was velocity of material. My second thought was a bigger trap would only help, but bigger hose would be way more practical.
In your formula, what is the mystery variable V?
I have a system I'm pretty happy with. I built a shroud/catch box behind my 12" chop saw like most of us end up doing. Them I used a contractor style TS dust collector chute (roughly 12'" funnel necking down to 4") offset under my chop saw, with the back of the chop saw fence bisecting roughly half the 12" circle. Hooked up to my 1.5 horse DC, it creates enough vacuum to back pressure the dust into the shroud area behind the saw. Every now and then I turn on the DC and brush the saw dust from the corners of the shrouded area into the DC shroud. It's not perfect, but way better than anything else I've tried or seen used by others. I think the origins of this idea is from Norm.
I have come to the conclusion after many years of using a chop saw, that they are engineered to fill your shop with sawdust and to cross cut wood. The best way to use a miter saw in your shop and to keep the flying sawdust down, is to use it outside your shop. The next best at keeping the flying sawdust down was a flexible, removable wide mouth pickups just behind the built in saw dust pickup port. Even though the shop still had saw dust everywhere, I was amazed at how fast the dedicated shop vac filled up using this modification. Hint: Look into using deflectors under the long arm supporting the saw head to keep the high speed stuff in the area where the air is being sucked up, till is slows down and can be sucked up.
Cross cutting is actually just a byproduct. The miter saw was invented as a dust generation mechanism. In a weird coincidence the inventor discovered it could be used to cut stuff.
This is my favorite TH-cam video you’ve posted so far. So much thought, design, and time invested in a result that didn’t go as planned. I shared this with my wife and she loved it too. Keep up the great work, thanks for keeping it real, and please keep engineering to solve this issue we all struggle with!
Thank you!
I would hook up the original port into a Y connection and give it a try. The blade causes a turbulence that shoots dust upwards into it.
dont think there is room for both
I’m glad to see someone is addressing the dust issues with these models. I have the Delta Cruzer and wow the dust. Looking forward to seeing your future results!! Keep on pursuing Shop Greatness!!
Like you I have a Cruzer; also like you…the dust!!!
That's why I left my miter saw on a rolling bench and take it outside when I want to do some cutting. Easy to blow off with the leaf blower and the shop stays a lot less (not completely) filled with sawdust.
My saw isn't sliding, but I have the saw enclosed in the back and then put two masonite boards either side with cutouts just big enough to clear the downward motion. The masonite, just leans on the back of the fence. If I need to make a miter, I just pull the two boards. I originally designed the back to curve down to a dust collection port for a shopvac underneath, but I found that it worked so well, that I didn't need the suction. I removed it and just vacuum it out whenever it gets full. That left space to put a big drawer underneath to collect the cutoffs.
with the plastic cowling and dust collection hose - be cognizant of static. The concentration of sawdust to me suggests either an unanticipated airflow or a static field. Also I would consider introducing compressed air to direct material where you want it to go. Just some thoughts. I read through a good number of comments, but apologize if this has already been mentioned
i like this idea too, redirect the exit air from vacuum so it slows down the high speed saw dust and gives the scoop more time to act on the dust?
@@bobmagnets1522 this concept is used on cnc routers...granted larger chips but in this case helps give some control on the velocity and direction of the dust
The dust goes off in an angle from The blade in all directioms. I would keep the Stock collectors in addition to a more funnel shaped printed collector. The opening of the collector has to be as wide as possible.
At least that eorked for my saw. Plus I use a record power cgv 286 with 2 Motors and a 100 mm hose split in 2 70mm Ports to suck that saw.
In the end only power is power I guess 😎
I like how you printed it in parts, you were definitely thinking ahead!
You mentioned the key at the beginning: momentum or velocity of the chips. If you widen the capture shroud, a lot, and make it deeper, you have more surface area at the entry as well as more volume in the acceptance chamber will mean less fighting the bounce and turbulence generated by the blade.
Down side with the vac he is using can’t do a large source of open air. Has to be concentrated. But I like the way your looking at it
@@aaronblackford981 You're right, the vac can only do so much. But the dust already has velocity, in a direction not compatible with the catchment area of the current design. The vac can't redirect that energy to where the current structure wants to accept it. If the receiving area takes more of the splashed material, the vac only has to collect it as it falls, before it bounces away.
I really appreciate that you mix interesting content in during the ad section. Nice move!
One thing I think gets overlooked when talking about dust collection is speed of cut. A certain cut is going to generate a certain amount of dust; the slower the cut the more the dust collection has a chance to collect it.
True, they are designed with very small ports for the amount of material being removed. My jointer has a 4 inch port and removes way more material per second (bigger surface area being cut) and i barely see a spec of dust.
I have the Delta Cruzer and this makes me so happy to see anyone try and help the terrible dust collection of the saw
When using a compound miter saw, you will adjust the miter way more than you will adjust the bevel. Your saw table width won't allow you to adjust full miter from left to right. Fix that first. Then good luck with the dust. Best way I have found was to build a cabinet around the miter saw.
I have a cheapy early 2000's Delta 10", yes I still have the starter one. I too have built a box around mine, however I also added a hose up to the dust port on the top of the blade guard. This gets "most" of it, however I still haven't figured out a way to get the saw dust the comes off perpendicular to the blade.
Just ran across this video and was quite interested in this sophisticated attempt at a solution. I bought a Festool kapex because of the claimed superiority of it’s dust collection but I am quite disappointed at how little it collects. My solution was to buy 2 veritas magnetic dust chutes and epoxy a large steel washer on each side of the rear housing and “Y” off the single dust collection hose to the 2 chutes, this was in addition to the built in dust collection. Like your solution miter and bevel cuts will remove a chute from one side or the other but usually not both. There may be no perfect solution but I like where you’re going. Keep up the good work.
I too have often thought about the dust collection systems available to the modern woodworker who, even to the present day , usually has to put up with that uncontrollable workshop mess!
I watched your video with great interest as also I have watched two others who have also gone to extreme lengths and had partial success.
At 76 years of age I spend more time thinking about problems than actually physically dealing with them….like dust collection.
What always comes to my mind, when stepping outside of the normal box, is the consideration which never seems to be given to A) the high speed of the dust coming off the saw blade which, via our own efforts is then directed into the path of the very much slower speed of the suction draft.
It would be fairly simple to utilize the blower side of an extraction unit to direct a flow of assisting air onto each side of the saw blade to encourage better removal of the dust by pushing the dust into the suction draft!
Just a thought
Thomas.
Respect. You showed all the steps, you showed that it did not work, you showed that there are more ideas to come. Thank you. I never comment on videos, but I had to comment on this one. Good luck on the next prototype.
Travis, please keep going and solve this dust issue. The Ridgid Mitersaw is my next adventure, and I would fully support purchasing one of your 3D prints to add to my shop. Good luck brother.
I look forward to seeing and purchasing a final product for my 12" Dewalt slider!
That is the only thing I hate with my Delta Cruze is the dust collection. If you get that dust collection to work I would soooo buy one.
Great video! The Festool Kapex is considered by many to have the best dust collection in this category. You might look at what Festool has done which is completely mounted on the blade hood. I could not afford a Kapex so I went with the Makita LS1219L. Makita uses a two-prong approach with a hood-mounted design similar to the Kapex and a static rear-mounted dust catcher. I thought this should work great but soon discovered that it's not very efficient in terms of air flow. A strong shop vac didn't work well but a Bosch VAC090AH dust extractor did. From my experience, the suck behind the catcher is an important factor as well.
I did a video on something similar on my channel, have thought about redoing it using 3d printing. I think the biggest difference I noticed was having a top on the box as most of the dust shoots up. I used brush strips which allowed the dust shoe and blade to pass through but kept all the dust inside the box to get sucked away. Worth a shot!
I saw your video Rings, I was going to suggest Travis watch it. You beat me to it! ha!
@@Rmharnisch hahaha hate to self plug, but I went through basically the exact same pain points Travis did here so I very much feel his pain and frustrations haha.
@@RingsWorkshop I get it and I plan on doing something similar with my setup. I recently watched your videos on not only the miter saw but the drill press dust collection. As an Engineer I love the way you methodically tackle those issues AND how you handled the shop organization. Brilliant work sir, please keep it up.
Travis, you as well. I love watching your videos and frequently return to them as I'm building out my own shop currently. Keep up the good work friend.
I've actually watched your video during my research, really liked your solution!
@@ShopNation thanks man! Yours came out awesome. Always appreciate seeing the failed attempts and what you improved upon and why. Helps make all of us better,
I love that you show the process of design and discovery and that it may not always work.
I think if you change the upper piece to take into consideration the coefficient of the flux capacitor and maybe reboot the matrix to maximize the left ventricle I think that should help get the results you are looking for. Keep up the shop greatness. I know I am! 👍🏼😎
Can’t stop laughing
Build a box behind the saw with a decline at the bottom with a hole for the dust to drop down into another box for collection.It works.I used it in the cabinet shop.
Definitely keep the failure videos coming, I relate to this a lot! 😀
With the benefit of hindsight, I think the saw blade functions as a pretty powerful fan that creates a surprisingly large zone of high air pressure. The cause of failure is that the collection system is a weaker fan and therefore lacks the volume/capacity to capture what comes off the saw. In short, what you made is a drinking straw trying to capture Niagara Falls.
For a next iteration, I would try to make a system that uses the force coming off the blade rather than fights against it, and of course larger capacity.
Appreciate your videos. Most post the “look how great it … ‘insert what you may” ….(works) (assembled) (stained). Like many, If not all of us, deal with the same problem and done our best to address it. Your videos are real and truth …. here’s the problem, here’s what I did to try to fix it…nope didn’t work.
You have to remember that with a cut the wood stays on the blade for a short amount of time, you'll have to figure out the angle which it gets released from the blade. Maybe get in touch with some high speed/slow-mo camera guys for content. But with the dust port on the miter saws generally above from the company is just the easiest. As seen below a curved collection with dust port on the side but it might get in the way of the arm. Or CNC a new arm to have the dust port out of the side.
Also need to consider momentum, and if you're wanting to overcome that you'll likely need more suction than the shop vac.
As an X trim carpenter now registered nurse home shop guy I completely agree with your comments on dust collection with chopsaw. I finally got around at us adding dust collection to my home shop to save my 60-year-old PACU RN now lungs and would love this for my old Makita saw that still is one of the biggest workhorses I have.
MAKITA LS1214FL 12" DUAL SLIDE COMPOUND MITER SAW WITH LASER AND FLUORESCENT
From the research I’ve done on mitre saw dust collection you would have been much better off getting a Makita. The two dust port collection is very effective. A good portion of the dust follows the blade around circumference and bypasses the single port at the back. A blade shroud collector is the difference.
I have the same vacuum and separator under my miter saw. I also have a Jay Bates inspired station. The enclosure that i have around the saw only really serves to keep dust from flying out away from the box. It does a pretty good job pulling in floating particles. I still have to periodically vacuum out the inside of the enclosure.
Love the idea! And mixing 3D printing into the shop. I cannot wait to see the follow up design/video.
That effort to show the most honest result is much appreciated👍🙏 That's the science
Film the saw in low light with a narrow beam flashlight lighting up the sawdust flying off the blade. Identify the pattern and the spread and then redesign accordingly. You need to observe and understand the pattern of dust your particular saw is producing before designing a solution.
Like your approach, you manner, and your humor. Also video tech excellent...sound, light, and not useless verbiage. Thank you
Try making a large curved "back stop" at the rear with the vacuum hose on the side so that the airflow just channels the dust into the hose.
Brilliant, semi closed loop... I suspect exhaust may need to be from above center blade.
Señor CAD Designer here. I don't understand how these companies don't offer standard accessory options for dust collection. For this application, it could be done in a week by one designer, including testing "first articles" from fast, accurate... expensive.. printers. Open the released assembly and sub assembly files, create an envelope based on combined views from all the different worst case scenario arm positions, then use flow analysis tool to tweak collection volume and efficiency. They could even offer two parts. One for dedicated 90* and another for all arm settings.
Totally agree, no idea why this is largely ignored by the OEMs
Love love love this type of content, pushing the boundaries is one of the reasons I bought a 3d printer, good job man, remember we learn more through failure then success, so consider this a win…
Hey Travis, I tried to solve the same problem with my 12” delta saw years ago. When I looked closely at the spray pattern of the ejected dust, I could see that much of it was simply going wider than the narrow factory boot that is right behind the blade. My solution was to take a plastic floor sweep and used some of the material to make “wings” that effectively widen the boot, blocking the overspray so that much more of it finds its way into the boot. I can send you a picture if you want. The wings track with the saw for miter cuts as well, but mine just a single pivot, not rails or compound knuckles.
It is sometimes reassuring to see that others can spend a lot of time over thinking and building a gizmo that should, in all respects, solve a problem…..only to have it not work. Most days I think it’s just me with that luck! Keep slogging along!
😊I spent this last holiday weekend trying to solve the same problem on my new DeWalt cordless miter saw. The sawdust seems to travel in three vectors: Strait back at a low, middle, and high angle depending on which portion of the cut you are making. Long story short, this requires three different pick-up points for a vacuum , and a single 5 horse vacuum does not have the power to provide enough suction. forget being cordless on a job site and good luck not blowing breakers.
It would be nice to see the results with the supplied dust collection.
I have the Delta Cruzer and the factory dust collection is like not having any at all.
Thank you for showing that it doesn't always work like we want it to. Keep up the great work.
Basically, you had an example of laminar flow interacting with the dust particles. Instead of vacuuming the dust, the 3d printed part acted as a low-pressure barrier and the high-pressure debris/saw dust bounced off the part opening and around the side. Without the dust collection, the stream was directed to the bevel gauge. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you tried to use the saw with the 3d printed part installed without the vacuum on.
Do you think lower CFM or lesser negative air flow would improve extraction? Or moving the outlet port down with a longer tube and small baffles?
I got makita Makita LS1019 and it's dust collection is the best I ever used, but after some minor adjustments(I just rearranged dust port to work parallel on two flanges rather than in sequence one after another) Even kapex was second to this one in dust collection. It is fairly simple, just two dust ports with rubber sleeves, works fine on miters. Most of the dust just bounces off the extendet fence(It just can't be moved a little sideways, only removed completely)
I solved dust collection 2 years ago. Just wheel your miter saw outside.
Thank you for showing that it is perseverance that will solve problems and failure is only one step closer to success.
I have the Delta version of this saw. Super excited for you to solve this and sell the STLs!
As many have stated below greater air flow will always help. Velocity is always the answer.
Travis today another video popped up on my suggested list from Rings Workshop. He headed down the same path as you with trying to design a better dust collection system. He had pretty good results with his methods. Together y'all may solve this issue. Interested to see what your final design looks like. One thing Ring Workshop could have done is to put collection hoses on both sides. His brush design improved the results dramatically. Thanks for the video.
I tried the whole shroud across the front of two cabinets on either side of the saw. Basically there was a very narrow window for the dust to go trough with over head dust port. All it did was create a vortex with dust swirling around and very little getting collected. I scrapped the whole thing. What seems to work best is a simple shroud around my dust hose set back away from the saw. Not perfect but it works pretty well.
Keep the humor going, it fits well with your videos and makes it more entertaining
Same thing with things I tried on my Bosch Glide, especially when I remove the on-board dust collector. I noticed in videos that the one that people say that works best, the Festool, it seems the most important part is how robust the on-the-blade chute and suction is, and as I found out with mine, that is the minimal you HAVE to keep - which of course it is the hardest to design around. Yeah.
Deck mounted dust collection on miter saws are secondary to blade shroud dust collection. You have to have high suction at both points to perfect it. I have a 12” dewalt slider that is nearly dustless even in MDF
Hello, fellow miter saw owner , could please somehow post multi ankle pictures so as to adapt to other brands please, thank you.
@ShopNation I have made something very similar the slot where the blade goes my design has a adjustable clam shell design I can vary the degree of angle deflection. Also the semi round curf in the back of a clam shell causes a nice little eddy for concentrated collection. Perfect spot for a small dust port. Mine has two small dust ports and two standard it collects everything except for some rogue bits. Mine is a Rigid 12" laser guided compound miter saw.
ShopNation vs miter saw dust. Can’t wait who prevails in the end! 😂
I have the 10" version of the Delta Cruzer. LOVE the saw!!
I think I might know where to start: Close the upper dust port tube from the original dust collector. Let me know if that works.
Hey, How about offering to all of us who have this saw your finished product. What a money maker for you!
I modified my Bosch Axial Glide with an old rubber fishing boot. Using the existing dust collection fitting, works awesome. Top down collection rather than bottom up seems to be the ticket
Travis nice upgrade! Sorry the dust collection didn't work. Hang in there. With all the technical advice provided in the comments the solution should be found to address your issue. I'm glad you decided to publish the attempt. It made me feel like I'm not the only one that stuff like that happens to. I placed the dust collection ports to close to the saw on the enclosure I built for my DeWalt. Some of the dust gets collected but the majority of it collects at the back of the box. One day I'll relocate the ports to the rear of the enclosure. I look at the upside in the fact that the dust is at least contained.
I love the iterations and solutions you come up with for things. You have a very unique voice in this space.
Bro! Hats off to you for the ending! Ive recently thought about building a hood and using a skirting (canvas material) that can move with the miter and compound (like an accordion) after watching this im convinced just some saws have terribly designed collection ports and might just be happy with what i got so far.
Great video. Don’t you stay up to many nights figuring this one out. Anybody with an army of three-d printers is going to come up with something.
Absolutely a fun, learning, watching vid. Thanks for taking the time it took to put it together.
Good luck solving your problem. I’m looking forward to seeing how you capture the saw dust on your new Rigid miter saw.
From Missouri
Thanks so much for sharing this! I love that TH-cam makers are showing their efforts when things don't go according to plan, which is what happens to most of us most of the time! :)
You need a higher velocity and volume of air flow around a shroud that in compasses the back side of the saw! I solved this problem by buying a hood that looks like a baby bonnet and connected my 5 inch DC line to it! No more dust in the air or on the shop floor or stand.😁🛫
"It's got convenient pockets" that was funny!! Nothing worse than inconvenient pockets!
Maybe add a zero clearance plate that is ducted to the 3-D printed housing. This might add enough down draft so that momentum of the wood chips/dust would be slow enough to be captured by the housing. I used cardboard to make a dust collection housing and I found that most of the chips/dust hit the front of the housing, so I didn't bother repeating that design in plywood. Looking forward to seeing your next iteration.
Great video because it shows the power of 3D printing, but also shows that not every solution works first time. Hope you nail it Travis!
I bruteforced my miter saw dust collection, have so much suction that the blade spinning doesn't overpower the vacuum. I bought a way oversized and generously priced (due to the pandemic) dust collector from Laguna, that runs on 220V. I have it hooked up to my CNC router and hooked to my miter saw station, barely get sawdust on the ground anymore, the major downside is hearing protection is not optional anymore in my shop when its on.
Hate to say it but you are either going to get really fancy and study the airflow caused by the blade spinning and try to work with that or go bruteforce.
I've tried many different ways to suck up the sawdust from my Bosch 12" sliding miter saw over the years and finally settled on building a box that attaches to my zero gravity stand where my saw sits mostly inside the box. I made two 4" ports into a Y fitting and then a 4" hose to my Harvey G700. I get very little dust outside the of the box now. This is a similar strategy that those miter saw fabric tents offer but without the space needed behind the saw. I'm going to add some directional pieces of wood inside the box to help direct the air flow to the ports and see how that goes because I get a fair amount of dust in the box. I still can go 45 degrees in both directions but cannot compound miter unless I make a wider box.
Not sure if a shop vac has enough CFM to work like a 2HP dust collector, so good luck!
One thing I've noticed on my Dewalt saw that I've hooked up a 3D printed dust port to and had success with is that mine is set back quite a bit toward the wall compared to yours. Not sure if dust and chips slow down more back there and that helps the vacuum catch those but that's my theory. Having the vacuum close to the blade means you're having to overpower the speed that the blade is slinging the chips.
Makes sense. Hood with multiple ports seems to work quite well in a few YT vids. Port close to blade means high speed dust off blade teeth hits an invisible wall of slow moving air at port so gets deflected away from the port rather than sucked in.
Like a peleton of cyclists racing on wide flat road hit narrow hill or hump back bridge. They crash into riders in front who have slowed or bounce or steer off into ditch or down river bank. It's a pattern in many bike races and riders have suffered extreme injuries and death. Particles bigger and slower than saw dust but momentum probably greater and the model is remarkably similar! Nobody has solved the problem because each such pinch point is different. Ambulance is equivalent to after cut clean up! Lots of padding to protect against bones hitting metal and stone kerbs, corners, signposts helps clear up 'dust' that hasn't got stuck to the surroundings
humility is impressive. good for you. good luck on the next try
I like this video, it's about the process at this point. Hopefully there will be success as the outcome in a future video. I'm with you, rooting for Travis on the next iteration.
I tried the same thing with my Delta 12" slider but I did not get nearly as far as you did. Really like the idea of the profile duplicator. Some of those shapes are impossible to capture otherwise. I'm with a lot other commenters that airflow could help a lot. I have a dust collection system that is 6" pipe in the ceiling and stepped down to 4" for the wall runs so I have standard 4" blast gates. My idea was to use a Y adapter to step down from the 4" to two 2 1/2" ports and then run each of those two lines to either side of the "contraption" which would essentially double the airflow that you had. If work ever stops getting in the way I might give it another shot. You have inspired me.
Love your honesty. Looking forward to version 2, 3, 4, 4.1, 4.2! LOL
You may not have solved the problem, but you earned my subscription. I wonder how long the dust persists in the gullet of each tooth? Does the dust get thrown off the blade immediately, or does it stay down in the gullets for several revolutions of the blade? I feel like a lot of dust actually gets thrown off the front of my saw, having been carried around for several blade revolutions before it hits the blade guard and/or bounces off the stock and out into the shop. Maybe your device pulls the dust off the blade, but doesn't move enough air to pull it into the vacuum stream.
I've built the ubiquitous box type hood and won't say I'm happy, but I live with it for now.
Good luck on finding the solution. I like using the miter saw, quick and easy to use, but I have started thinking only out of the workshop.
I have the Delta Cruzer 12 and have the same issue. I think the only thing that can save this is the miter saw tent thing that goes around the entire saw. When you cut, the saw dust is blowing past the point where the suction is and it just goes all over the place. Another idea would be to somehow encase the saw blade similar to the track saw. Keep grindin' dude & I love your content!
John Builds It made a pretty clever cabinet with magnets. It's an attractive unit for what it is.
Travis, I haven't read through all 440 comments. But I think a few have touched on what I see. The velocity of ALL the particles before the dust collection is fast which cause it to go literally everywhere. After you add dust collection you have created a small negative pressure area that slows the particles but not enough to be vacuumed. That's why they end up on the back little horizontal surface and not everywhere else.
Also it looks like a lot of particles exit the blade at a higher angle hitting the saw frame between the first hinged joint and the back edge of the saw blade. These particles are then bouncing off the sides 3D printed part rather than entering the narrow opening.
Maybe open the top and face of the 3D printed part to allow more particles to enter the negative pressure area of the vacuum.
Looks good, I'm excited to see if you can solve it.
Festool Kapex has probably the best collection of any miter saw and folks have improved that even more with something called the Sawstache from FastCap. It's basically a broom behind the blade. Flexible bristles that can move over the fence, but not so flexible as to be blown back by air movement.
I love that you are trying to tackle this. I would add zero clearance insert and how about increasing the mouth of the collection to match the width of the upper fence, or replace the upper fence with a 3d print honeycomb pass through. Increasing mouth will reduce suction but your missing so much anyway. I really hope you figure this out. I’m allergic to most types of wood dust, but I love wood working. Dust collection is a must.
I just subscribed. I'm absolutely impressed that you took the time to fully edit a video in which you failed to solve the problem at hand. That's honesty, and I look forward to watching you sort out the problems with your design in the next video(s). Great job detailing the design and engineering process as well.
Travis try looking at the bottom of the miter saw as the track where blade runs in the base is the is the one place everyone does not take into consideration when looking at dust collection, think of the miter saw as a upside down table saw.
The table saw always has dust collection above the blade as well as below the blade even with a zero clearance insert, plus a table saw blade rotation is towards the operator.
The miter saw has the same principle as the table saw except the the teeth of the blade rotation is away from the operator on the table deck.
The reason miter saws are difficult to get really good dust collection is the bottom of the saw is always blanked of with the deck of the miter Station.
The underside of any miter saw has perforations in the bottom to let the wood dust and chips to fall to the floor when they are used at job sites on saw horses.
So when you see miter saws being used their is always a big pile of saw dust under the miter saw.
The problems with miter stations their is no down draft to the under side of the miter saw so the air pressure that is made from the rotation of the blade is channelled to the back of the saw.
The more suction to the back of the saw produces more dust accumulated higher at the back of the saw.
I hope that this is helpful?
I am a metalwork engineer and I have alway seen the bottom of the saw blocked off by the shelf it is on.
Yours Philip Burrows in Overton on Dee, Wrexham, Wales, UK.
this reminds me of another dust collection video for a band saw that initially went very wrong. They needed more airflow in the direction of the dust port. Maybe remove the baffle and put a 1.5in hole opposite the dust port. this will create a cross wind and will turn the sawdust in the direction of the dust port faster. also the dust collection could be starved for air and this would solve that too.
My compound miter saw has a bag that hangs on the back and does something. I know because I always have to empty it. Instead of overpowering the dust with chutes and ladders. Try using the momentum that is already there and funnel into a kinda of passive collection system.
A passive system will catch something but more by chance than design, the problem is the chip velocity and momentum
More airflow needed. Suggest 2 dust extraction ports located where dust streams are concentrated. The entrance "mouth" of the extraction chamber should be wide and large to catch dust spewing in various directions. In addition to the extraction chamber, fashion a flexible curtain of some sort to encircle as much of the blade as possible without obscuring the cut line. This curtain will catch and direct dust into the extraction chamber as well as being flexible enough to take whatever shape is needed during angled cuts too. I'm curious to see what you come up with!
I put a smooth sheet metal shroud behind mine and have a 650 6 feet to the left through smooth stove pipe 4" dia ... doesnt catch all of it but does maybe 75% + different saw though. I'm hoping you succeed as this could be really good !
Try dust collection beneath the saw as well. I cut a hole in my bench about the same size as the saw's insert. The down draft really helped reduce the amount of dust that went to the back. I did this in addition to the supplied dust collection shroud at the back and I found that it worked better than expected.
i like that idea. when used together with above-the-plate collection. Also, the shop vac does not pull that much volume, and why not try it with a larger volume dust collector?
@@mriguy3202 It actually didn't occur to me until you said it but ya... I was using my 1/2HP dust collector with a 4" to 2x2.5" Y-adapter to split the hose to both top and bottom. Still, you'd think that the higher velocity of the shop vac would be better than the volume of the dust collector given the size of the dust particles... but now you've got me wondering about this. I think some scientific-like testing is in order!
I too do the downdraft. It works really well in conjunction with the blade-level collection. I think Travis may have discounted the "shroud" idea a little too quickly. Some do really suck, but the box I've built is amazing.
Excellent Video, You showed a great deal of thought and ingenuity in your process and the result was less than satisfying. Bravo, you've shown us all that we can come up short and the world still turns. You've probably already figured this out but I think the fly in the ointment is the velocity of the dust coming off the blade.
It was a very solid effort. 👌
I don't have a sliding miter saw, mine is a standard Dewalt. Until very recently, I didn't use a vac system at all, just that little bag that attaches to the back.
Honestly, It seemed to work fine. Filled with dust nicely with minimal stray dust. I guess I just accepted that there wasn't any true way to get 100% of all dust, I dunno.
Now that I do have a vac system attached to it (6.5hp Ridgid vac), I haven't noticed any more or less dust by using it. I just don't have a bag to empty any more.
However, my non-engineering school thoughts on the "why and how" the problem is created to begin with is that there should be 2 dust collection ports.
One in the back, which obviously already exists and then the other should be a port hole on the top or side of the blade shroud/shield. And of course, the shroud should have those vent slots covered/sealed so it's an enclosed shroud.
Since the blade spins upward, it seems logical that's where the majority of the dust goes...and then just falls down while the lighter smaller particulates (dust) get pushed by the air created by the spinning of the blade...which is probably why there are slots in the shroud.
Notice how "some" Circular saws have a dust port located in the rear SIDE of the saw, as well, the shroud of a Circular saw is a solid piece, not slotted. Notice when using a Circular saw without a vac attached to it, where that dust accumulates....right there on the backside...as though the saw is pooping dust where you just cut.
So, in my mind (in theory), that seems to be the solution. Copy the engineering on a Circular saw and do that to the miter saw.
Something that I would try is to use a brush. I would buy a brush that would wide enough that it can be cut in 2(lengthewise). I would then mount them so that they sit vertically and just behind the fench. The port used for dustsucktion should cover as much as possible on the backside & top.
It's really great to hear someone approaching the problem from the standpoint of an engineer talking about particle velocity, point of generation and air handling capacity of the collection system.