Fighting Game Accessibility
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ต.ค. 2021
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"Removing Hard stuff" and "adding easier stuff" is not the same, and i think a lot of fighting game devs don't quite understand that yet
Many players don't understand this either. Look at continuous threads about autocombos in games which have them as MBTL.
@@RanmaruRei The wild thing is that Type Lumina auto-ing off of every button actually forces folks to pay attention to their inputs, so it lets new players get the "feel" of the game before spending grueling hours labbing BnBs, while also providing meaningful training for those with more experience. The only thing that keeps it from being pure upside is the infinite ability of fighting game veterans to whine about everything.
@@IOTewks I've seen more people that's never touched Melty Blood (or any other fighting games) before complaining about its autocombo. And the complaints from the veterans are about how it makes buffering certain inputs harder.
@@spammerman7556 my only complaint is a lack of neco arc
I have gotten many people into Fighterz because of the autocombos, and can I just say that once the player stops using autocombos and start using bnbs it’s such a cool feeling knowing that they’re into the game enough to learn
As a decently experienced Fighting game player, I hate DP inputs so much I learned how to play Goldlewis to avoid having to deal with the z motion. I have zero regrets.
Autocombos are fine, it’s when they KEEP FUCKING GOING ON WHIFF (we know which game) that gets me.
Or when certain auto combos are just so good that it never really forces new players to learn actual combos, like I'm a decently high rank and I still see many that only use autocombos, I think we know the game and characters where this is most prevalent
A lot of it is just a lack of good teaching methods. A game is designed with certain mechanics in mind and it's under the assumption that players are both aware of them and know how to do them. Take for example Strive using the "PUNISH" indicator to let you know if a character was hit while they were in an attack's recovery - it's a VERY minor change that doesn't even affect the gameplay that helps teach frame data organically. It's much easier to pick up than to say, "You gotta go into training or look online."
But fighting games typically only have online play, which doesn't clearly give you feedback on what's effective and also the need to balance means that you don't get fights that tutorialize the game in a way that eases you into it. Tutorial modes don't particularly help since they dump all the info on you at the start without really getting the mechanic into your head to help you master it - and in some cases, combo trials can HURT because they are designed to be difficult and often situational but can give a player the impression that they SHOULD be able to do those combos if they want to be effective. Single Player Campaign is the best way to teach the mechanics, but those don't usually have any difficulty options and are made so that any random player can win the fights - and that's assuming the story mode isn't just a movie.
There's always going to be mechanics that the game has a hard time teaching, though. FD is something that I never feel like I'm doing right since I feel like I'm either underusing or overusing it and it doesn't seem to actually help get back to neutral. At the level I'm at, which is floor 9, most players including floor 10 players I've fought only are using FD to negate chip damage and MAYBE to try and help make it out of the corner but in all instances it seems like it's barely helping. I think that's an issue with the game's teaching methods.
Look at a game like Devil May Cry 3. That game doesn't give you any explicit tutorials and is hard as balls but it drip feeds you information and lets you piece things together yourself as necessary while you climb from Normal to Hard to Very Hard to DMD difficulties. You learn stronger techniques as you notice they're REALLY good for certain fights. I think that SFV has the POTENTIAL to have done something similar to this by using the Extra Battle if they set you up against different versions of characters with altered parameters and AI specifically to teach you fundamentals and matchup knowledge. Having the battles change on a week to week basis would also help since it would be regularly reinforcing the lessons that they teach. But they didn't really lean into it that much, the most you might get is one of the gold Soldiers being weak to combos.
I don’t really see the problem with making links easier in SFV. There’s not technically less to learn; it’s just easier to do consistently. The only effect I think it has on the competitive landscape is that it slightly closes that gap between S-tier players and almost S-tier players. I don’t see that as a bad thing. Some might say that it diminishes player expression, but I don’t think that difficult but optimal execution is a very interesting form of expression. Everyone would go for the hard and more rewarding combo if they could. I’m more interested in seeing their unique inclinations as players. None of this is to say that 1-frame links shouldn’t exist. I just don’t think difficultly for the sake of difficulty is necessary.
1F links on the best Netcode still would feel like trash, ppl just having nostalgic memories and forgetting that nobody played SFlV online, with a even worse online than SFV.
Heavily disagree. I don't think people would still be playing melee if you couldn't mid-shorten fox's side b (which varies in distance based on the frame you press) to edge-cancel it (where you needed to have positioned yourself correctly in order to slip off the platform), fastfalling (holding down only after you've gone airborne, doing fox's drill > shine (who's timing varies depending on what part of the down air animation you hit with) into a waveshine combo (where you need to time a jump then airdodge after the shine to wavedash at a shallow enough angle to follow up, then repeat), into an upsmash then a popoff because you did something crazy that looks stylish and only a handful of people can do
Gonna have to disagree with this one, one frame links aren't necessary for fighting games but I think it adds depth, however little it may be, also there isn't really any benefit to removing them, you say it just lowers the gap between s tier players and almost a tier players but I don't think that's a good thing
I think the problem comes when “Removing Hard Stuff” goes overboard. something arbitrary like an L-Cancel (Imo) is fine to remove, but once you start gutting entire phases of the game (like Okizeme in alot of modern fighting games), especially in series with a history of strong okizeme, you start to eat at the identity of these games, and alienate people who grew to love the less commercially desirable bits of the genre.
I think l cancelling is actually an interesting mechanic although its understandable why people think its just a skill barrier. Although there is a inherent need to learn l cancelling at a basic level to somewhat play melee, there are very nuanced mind games that occur due to the timing of l cancels. The timing of an early aerial vs a late aerial is different so there are very nuanced, and i emphasise naunce, situations where mind games can occur. E.g. fox nair can be ran into to force an earlier hit, which changes the l cancel timing that the attacker may not be expecting, which allows a larger punish window by the defender. This is a really micro situation that 99.9% of players are not going to use, but i still think its interesting as a mechanic in itself. I wouldnt mind if it were removed tho :/
@@nathanlue7111 I think while there’s alot of intricacy in L-canceling as a whole, I also feel that in overall it as a system doesnt give more than it takes. While this nuance is cool, I think melee as a whole is a stronger and healthier(in the sense of hand health) game without it, but i think there’s still an argument for it, even if im partial to it not being a think
I think L-canceling can lead to some nuanced worthwhile situations at higher levels like trying to screw up the opponents timing with shielding a nair early but a big problem with L-canceling is that a failure to L-cancel is not a even punishment across the cast. Many of the good character already have aerials that recover well. A missed L-cancel off many aerials just leads to losing your turn or not having tight pressure. Then you have characters like Bowser who basically loses a stock if he misses a L-cancel off of most of his aerial because the recovery is so bad. Then you have Jigglypuff who doesn't even care about L-canceling to begin with. I probably wouldn't have a problem with L-canceling is so many aerials didn't require them to be useable.
I think Tekken is a good example (not great) of a game that doesn’t require a lot of motion inputs and is more input execution based. Obviously this is pretty character based but you’re doing good honey, keep it up
Amazing video as always
Yeah definitely not based on motion input...
Here's one of King's best throw by the way :⬅️↙️⬇️↘️➡️❎ in which you have to make each input separate all within a second
@@Ahmadabdal_ > “Obviously this is pretty character based”
@@Ahmadabdal_ bro that’s just sliding your thumb across the dpad
@@dkcsi9256 bruh 80% of the characters in tekken have very important moves that have motion inputs like this and its beyond hard to learn them
@@SizableChap no, tekken doesn't let you just slide the d pad like most anime fighters. its really really hard to do these inputs and don't mix them up with each other in such a short time frame to register as saperste inputs
The devs watched the TLA segment.
As did I a huge TLA content creator.
Good stuff 👍
You don't make a game accessible by dumbing down the game, you do it by actually teaching people how to play your game by implementing solid tutorials and challenges that teach your players character and system mechanics in real life situations that you'll come across in real matches with real people.
On one hand Divekick is still more fun than any traditional fighter ive ever played and like. Boy i wish there were more fighting games with that level of input dedication because it is real hard to get to the Fun Parts of a Fighting Game in just about everything else.
On the other the best tutorial for any fighting game is legitly "a really good single player mode". Will it teach the played bad habits fighting the AI? Yes! Will it actually get players USED to actually playing the videogame and able to come up with some plan at all? Also yes! Theyre surprisingly important imo
This is absolutely correct. I’ve done a lot of research on this subject. Not wanting to drop my channel / video link, because shilling, but I’ve already started a series on it.
@Byron Martin street fighter 2 sold because it was the 90’s and a brand new concept.
It feels like mechanics present in GranBlue Fantasy Versus would have been pertinent in this discussion, as it kind of splits the difference in many ways for said mechanics’ execution.
You played it any, Gecks?
gbvs was such a unique take on assesibility in fighting games
it has basically every 'dumbed down baby mechanic' the FGC loves comolaining about, but I feel like it was handled very well
however the 1 button meterless DPs are definitely way too strong (and pretty much to this day generally what divides a good and mediocre/bad character in that game)
the game has its issues (quite a lot of them in fact) but it's mostly unrelated to the mechanics it introduced to make the game more assesible. i really wish it were more popular. it helped me and a few friends get into competitive fighting games past a casual level
I greatly appreciate you discussing motion inputs the way you do. So many people act like the entire genre will blow up if you dont have motion inputs
Another game that doesnt have motion inputs but has a high ceiling is GNT4, its really good
Auto-combos are fantastic honestly. My first 2D fighter was BBTag and combos were something I was worried about going in. It was super nice to be able to mash one button and be able to feel like I was doing something when playing online at the start, even if it was in no way optimal. The best part though is that it made training mode really fun for me! I started off with things like "Okay I'll do this auto-combo up until this hit and then change it up with this special move." Slowly but surely by adding different buttons to auto-combos I ended up with some really cool and unique combos that I created myself. It felt great!
Fighting Game Accessibility; *scariest shit iv'e ever seen.*
I feel like sfv not having meterless reversals was the right call in the long run. Characters that had an invincible reversal were automatically so much better than characters that didn't in the early seasons, especially if it was meterless. Considering the game doesn't have many defensive mechanics or setups like previous games did (abundance of safejumps in 4, parry and wakeup parry OS in 3s plus the wakeup throw invul justify meterless reversals in those games, and even then, there's only like 3 frame 1 meterless DPs in 3rd strike), so in sfv, a character with a meterless invincible reversal could just run that mindgame on defense, and be at a very large advantage, considering how offense goes in sfv. Imagine if season 2/3 Akuma had a meterless reversal, it would have been insane, considering how well he could (and still can) run easy, strong, heavily rewarded offense, it would suck if he could also get out of it for free himself, while a significant portion of the cast would struggle through R.Mika's hellish 50/50 vortex or laura VT1 with no way to get out. Vreversal kind of tried to alleviate this, but it doesn't cut it, and now Vshift provides an option on wakeup as well, but that wasn't always the case, and adding meterless invul reversals back in right now would just unnecessarily mess with the great balance the game has going on, which is built around this "meter for invul" rule. Throw loops being removed would probably be a better point to make I think, instead of adding in ways around throws (a well-designed backdash, more throw-invincible moves, etc.), they just made it so that anyone can mash out of any throwloop.
The people who are against autocombos are that Leo you fight on floor 9 with insane mixups and half health long RC combos and when you watch the replay you notice they didn't hold back once the entire match.
If you lose to someone "spamming auto combo" you lost the match. Yes, you chose to put your time into learning offense which IS a skill in a fighting game, but they put the time into other fighting game skills, and are the overall better player that match.
The biggest issue I have with autocombos are that I don't have the option to turn it on or off. Blazblue and Xrd both had the ability to choose (granted theirs were a bit more...extreme). But having a middle ground would be ideal for me
I think that the main problem with accessibility in fighting games is moreso that you are barely taught anything in game. Like most fighting games never properly teach you how to play neutral or play footsies. Hell most games don't even include frame data, which is essential to understanding a fighting game.
Though I am kinda sad that you didn't talk about Tekken more, at least in a negative context because a game where characters have over 100 moves on average is the very anti-thesis of an accessable game at least from my perspective. Like how many people who have never played fighting games have picked up Tekken, saw the length of the move list and decided: "How am I supposed to remember all this? Maybe fighting games just aren't for me."
Tekken is a weird paradox imo because like you said new players take one look at the move list and are brought low by the fucking monolith presented to them but then if you actually start playing you realize that you compartmentalize them into sections. You go "These are the buttons that juggle into each other, these are my fastest buttons, etc" and realize that in essence you're only really dealing with maybe 6-7 options in any given gamestate.
I'm talking about actual beginners, people who never played a fighting game and are completely unfamiliar with anything that comes with them. Those people won't know what a juggle is or what frame data is. They can't compartmentalize different game states because they lack the tools to differentiate them well.
There is no paradox with Tekken, just choice overload.
@@zappelins8942
A juggle is extremely easy to understand, it's just a combo that stops when the opponent is no longer airborne.
Finally someone said it! That’s what I’ve been saying what modern fighting games are missing, new players aren’t taught the full fundamentals and tools they have not tied to specials, just what they and every other character on the roster have in their basic arsenal of moves. Because they aren’t taught about neutral and footsies, they think they have to learn combos and move execution to play online when that’s far from the truth.
New players, learn your neutral and footsies, trust me, you will beat out new players who think jumping into combo trails will make them good at the start, because combo trails teach you combos, not how to get in and defend yourself.
Yep, exactly. Having a good tutorial is the most obvious thing ever, so idk why so many devs don't prioritize that.
As someone who’s favorite fighting game is Persona 4 Arena Ultimax, I find the simplified mechanics very helpful. Not many people play it anymore, but it’s simplified inputs and auto combos allow me to hand the controller to just about anyone who’s played a video game before. Additionally, if I feel my opponent isn’t winning enough, I can switch my character to one I don’t usually play and still have a general understanding of how they function.
In SF5 it could be argued that adding the requirement of meter increased skill expression in some ways. Now players have to include their resource management in their knockdown situations as well and using a dp could restrict combos and going for a higher damage combo with EX moves could increase the risk when you are in knockdown
7:28 "Yeah Hisui, give him the chair!"
*you have no idea...*
Autocombos are a needed tool for people with missing fingers or crippled hands; complex motion imputs and multi-button moves can be a genuine impasse for many disabled gamers. Disabled gamers are often given no thought, and it's a shame so many people are shitty about tools intended to make sure many kids don't grow up being left out. If scrubs want to use those tools, fine, but it's a better game with them than without.
Anyone notice people complain that their game is highly underrated, then also complain when devs make a game accessible to attract a larger audience.
5:05 you conveniently left out the detail that not every character in the roster had that option. Only 4 characters had meterless invincible reversals in sf5: ryu, ken, necali and cammy.
Still dumbing things down though
Don't play much SF I presumed 80% of the cast has a meterless invun DP
thought throws would beat the s and that's how the corner game played out. I play Tekken so I just get scared becuase I can't sidestep, don't play any 2D seriously
Yh they did it for the sake of making balancing easier
6:30 that's... Actually the most adorable thing I've seen all week
Tekken has autocombos on several characters for ages.
It's how I learned to play Hwoarang :)
‘Accessibility’ in fighting games is like adding a wheelchair ramp to a bouldering/climbing wall.
Ah yes, the skill ceiling of… *checks notes* one frame links…
As someone who wants to play fighting games with my family, motion inputs are very difficult for them sometimes. Its why games like Smash are a lot more fun for them. I think there should be an option for not having motion inputs in like local, but keep it off for online play. So for those who just want to play with friends they can do it without having them stress over the inputs. But in order to actually play online you'll need to learn how to, as it would make the game much easier for players. Or hell maybe maybe by enabling this, they will be limited in certain ways to prevent them from doing as much as players without the handicap
People have trained dogs to do motion inputs like a fireball. I'm sure your family can do them if they spend a few seconds practicing.
@@Thalanox not hat they cant do them its a matter of putting them into use whole fighting me. Abone can do infinites in training mode, that doesn't mean you can in an actual fight
@@Thalanox a 10 sec video of a dog accidentally doing a fireball is not a good argument at ALL
@@kai_824 There are tons of fighting games without motion inputs. Introduce you family to Soul Caliber or Power Rangers.
@@Breeze06 I believe Soul Calibur has motion inputs.
man I hope that Melty's backwards DPs aren't gone for good, I mean Neco-arc's ability locked behind it is completely useless but I want it back reguardless.
I've always thought about Execution as a "meaningless barrier" as it's literally just difficulty to perform an action. This is why I'm on board of reducing the Skill Floor while keeping the Skill Ceiling. If you can easily do all the moves for your character but you sitll have the possibility to dig deeper and deeper to discover many things constantly, then the "core" of FGs is kept (this "core" IMO is being able to constantly improve by learning many different aspects of the characters and the game).
Good examples of games that show this point are MBTL and P4U2. Both got rid of some difficult motions (P4U2 removed more inputs, while MBTL made links easier) but both games have soooooooo much stuff underneath that they become really crazy on high level matches.
PD: I HATE shield in MBTL with passion. Bring back the AACC shield, French Bread, I'm begging you.
Does PD mean something or is it a PS typo?
Not being rude or a grammer cop, actually wondering.
@@Wiziliz Old "post data" used in letters.
@@heavymetalmixer91
Thank you!
@Byron Martin This is a bad opinion.
@@heavymetalmixer91 ok so
Execution is part of the skill ceiling
See Zato-1 in Strive or Azir in league of fuckwits their ceilings are both the highest in the games due to harder executions on combos and moves on top of requiring more knowledge
You can succeed up to a point in most fighting games without ever using a combo or special by mastering fundamentals meaning
Execution isnt part of the floor its part of the ceiling
Dude, I *did* click to hear you analyze accessibility options in fighting games. Am I in the minority?
I dont want motion inputs removed, but I woul like to see maybe some more easier buffering windows for wake ups and reversals in games. Like maybe if you put in a DP input while getting hit you do a dp input, but you have to commit, rather then just getting reset. Like allow the other player to predict that and still block or something. Probs depends on the game as well.
I don't actually see how meterless reversals not existing would do anything for or against accessibility; it's just a different design choice that might make the game a bit more homogenous and to some staler. Oh and I feel like if meter is plentiful enough and there are plenty of other strong defensive system mechanics in a game it becomes less of a big deal to have a meterless reversal or not; the new Melty being a prime example of that (some characters do have meterless reversals in that game anyway though; I'm not saying they don't), you pretty much have to do a setup/OS on the opponent's wake up every time not to get smoked if they know how to use their options well even if they don't have a meterless reversal. It's kind of hard *not* to have either moon drive and/or meter on deck at any given moment in that game.
Hey Pocket Rumble its an 2 button fighter game witouth motion inputs, it has an cancel system to do combos, u can change characters between rounds (3 to win) like in kof or use the same one like in SF and has 8 characters with diferent playstyle (shoto, rushdown, zoner, grappler, stance, puppeter, playset, glasscanon), it drops motion inputs yeah but gives u characters with deep and varied playstile and unique ways to use energy for each character...
5:00 worth mentioning that Brian_F actually made a video about this a couple days ago, most DPs still have invincibility, just not strike and throw invincibility at the same time. They either have one or the other, meaning you can use a light DP to escape a tick throw, and a heavy DP to escape a frame trap (depending on character obviously). I would argue that adds more depth and complexity to the game, but of course most people won’t put in enough time to actually utilize that knowledge
It is HILARIOUS how you frame accessibility as a horror theme for die-hard fighting game players, because many are actually THAT melodramatic about letting people with disabilities (or, i dunno, social lives?) have access to the excellent and rewarding experiences available in the genre.
Sorry but this is a competitive genre, if they want to have a good time for having no execution just play arena fighters.
Although I think the big problem is when the devs reduce the skill ceiling because new players will have an easier time, however In tekken new players don't care about doing the kbd or sidestepping because only advanced players do that tech, new players can still make easy stuff like rage arts, strings, punishable moves, power crushes, ect....
Imagine if the Tekken devs would remove the ewgf, taunt jet, wavedash, backdash cancel, and sidestep just because muh accessibility, obviously they don't need to do that because these technical skills are only meant for advanced players.
@@edlerkrieger8045 I don't know how to play Tekken, but I agree with you here.
I'm not even really "competitive" with how I play fighting games. I just want to learn them to a basic level. To the point where I'm playing with intentionality (to use the phrase from the video) and have some understanding of what my character's moves are and how I want to strategize in a match.
If someone reading my comment still doesn't understand why "accessibility" is often such a horrible term in fighting games, think of painting. You have a blank canvas, a palette of colours you pick, and paintbrushes of various sizes and types. You use these to create whatever images you want. If painting were to be made "accessible", you wouldn't get Bob Ross painting tutorial videos. You'd get all those painting tools replaced with a square that has four depressions, or slots in it, and about eight different squares of preselected colours that you had to put into the depression. Your "painting" here would be limited to putting these colour blocks into the preselected slots.
@@Thalanox "replaced with a square that has four depressions, or slots in it, and about eight different squares of preselected colours that you had to put into the depression"
o ye gods, the nightmarish horror of hyperbolic hand-wringing!
@@edlerkrieger8045 Saying that players "want to have a good time for having no execution" is just ridiculous. We're not talking about implementing cookie clicker mechanics, just meaningfully reducing the (currently obscene) entry requirements for the genre.
You're correct that accessibility mechanics need not affect the skill ceiling--go with that instinct.
@@IOTewks I'm trying to highlight the concept of "simplification to the point of removing what people enjoy about the activity". Are you pretending that you don't understand, or are you serious? I often seem to have a hard time explaining things I consider blatantly obvious to people who don't understand things. I've never considered analogies to perfectly explain these concepts because these concepts have never needed explanation for me, so the analogies I come up with are sometimes a bit awkward. That said, I am thoroughly convinced that a great number of people are actively fighting to pretend they don't understand obvious concepts.
3:28
Me and my dad played a game of MVM the other day. It was literally the only time he played tf2. He didnt rocket jump once and we won without losing a single wave
Melty Blood became famous for how accessible it was all the way back to ReAct and Act Cadenza.
"One button DPs are kinda broken"
Yup
I came from BBTAG being my first non-platform character
All bad situations can be stopped with DP
You simply press two buttons at the same time to exit all bad opportunities immediately
imo I think fighting games that want to appeal to a larger audience, should just bite the bullet and make an alternate control scheme. One is legacy version and the other is a abbreviated version keeping all the cool moves and removing the utility big brain stuff similar to DMC in terms of how easy the inputs are. And when it comes multiplayer make it so people can only make with others with the same control scheme unless they opt into it. idk
I've had similar thoughts, along the lines of DP motion ends at 3 so make the input 3X, and QCF ends in 6 so it becomes 6X. Players who enjoy the experience of those motions can do them and still get the same result--no solution will be perfect, but i do think that the "feeling" of playing these games is deeply tied to complexity of inputs for veterans.
@Awawawa CM These don’t address the real issue, input overlap is the real problem. When the input of Hadoduken and Shoryuken have near the same inputs with the same attack button type, you get move overlap due to far less player experience and dealing with the input leniency system as a result, finding yourself doing Hadodukens when you’d rather want to do Shoryukens. That can be painful for newer players, input overlap should be dealt with first since most modern fighters have input leniency already.
@Awawawa CM see about that, I’m enough to what you can consider the average player, where input leniency has me do that exact thing and many other players have mentioned the same issue. Z motion isn’t the real motion, it just looks like that, motion input illustrations have had a problem to portray the inputs to players, this was a major problem when it came to the infamous “pretzel input”, it’s a lot easier to input than one would expect if you actually take time to practice it, it’s all in gaining the muscle memory to do so. Input overlap can be a problem because of the input leniency system itself taking a “guess” on your motion inputs, reading an attempt at a shoryu as a hado.
It doesn’t make the ability to do such a move any easier, only more frustrating and time consuming as now your forced as a new player to practice a more strict motion input to avoid that system buffer from guessing incorrectly and claiming you made a mistake. Shoryu is really a forward, 1/2 qcf input, that’s why the illustration makes no sense, it hasn’t for years, so you could see why this might show where input overlap with the leniency system becomes a problem. Characters who don’t have their dps and fireballs tied to punch inputs don’t suffer this unless their kicks buttons overlap like this.
@Awawawa CM it doesn’t remove the traditional overlap for legacy play style. You’d be ignoring the other side of the player base’s issue in favor of another player base.
Hey. didn't you say you were going to make a video listing up suggestions for better User Experience? So far, the only thing that can somehow succeed the tutorial list in Under Night and Skullgirls is adding Red Earth Trials on top of that.
Don't forget Them fightin herds
I hope that the approach sf6 is taking ends up working and being popular. Having two different control schemes, one focused on low skill floor, the other focused on high skill ceiling, is I think a good compromise, and also lets a player pick how much work they want to put in while still letting really dedicated players have something to show for their hard work.
About SFVs DP change:
I didn't mind it and I was playing one of 4 characters that had a meterless, fully invincible dp. While it did make offense easier, it made defense become harder for those 4 characters, who were all seen as pretty strong in season 1 in part because of the readily available dp.
The change also made DPs as a whole a lot more interesting to me, because it didn't only force you to make a stronger commitment for the reversal, it also differentiated the move more. Instead of all versions just being invincible, now all of them still have some sort of invincibility.
This means that instead of just factoring in recovery frames and damage in your choice of which button to use for your dp you now have to know which is the best for your current situation. Throws, Jump ins and Frametraps all now have their own specific counter which you have to know. That is another thing new players will have to learn and applies to pretty much any uppercut in the game instead of just a chosen few.
I don't know, I feel like it increases necessary brain power more than decreasing it and as soon as there is one bar in the EX gauge you are still back to the same old wake-up mindgame.
Imo they can keep it the way it is for SFVI.
I've been waiting for the next video to drop lmao
Me: *sees this video*
*mimics voice* Let’s talk about accessibility…..
2 seconds later me: I WAS JOKING.
That Martin Mystery theme in the beginning 👌
I'm more disappointed that you didn't really talk about the main issue most people have with Auto combos (you gave fighterZ props and that's fine but you should have at least talked about its main negative issue. The fact they track AND can be done on Whiff.
Other games that have this system don't do that and you hear no one complain about those.
Heck, you could have talked about MVC they have auto combos as an optional playable style. This would help explain why Auto combos can be fine. Capcom did it first and it was good imo.
Or Even Kof 14 they have auto combos but they don't let you cancel into specials. They are specifically made for new players. They will even spend meter if you have a super stocked up. But again the damage is still enough to make newer players feel like they did something and look cool (but to us it's obviously small and negligible)
FighterZ in retrospect is the worst one that did Auto combos ( in execution)
Heck Arc system works other game Persona 4 Area/Ultamax have auto combos and they don't come out on whiff. Only on block and hit.
But besides that this video was very good imo 👍🏾
I believe it's OK that they track and can be done on a whiff. It actually adds for the ceiling. Some tech really require you whiff the first hit of an autocombo.
And no one complain about doing strings in 3D fighters on whiff. You can 5KKKKKKKK in DoA with Naotora whiffing the whole string and it's OK. So, what's a difference?
This right here. I don’t have a problem with auto combos honestly, but I do have a problem with dbfz’s auto combos. Considering how obnoxious some characters’ auto combos can be (especially some of the dlc characters), you’re practically encouraged to just throw them out because they take up a lot of real estate, they’re kinda hard to punish, and they’ll still catch you even if you’re behind your opponent. Dbfz is one of my first fighting games but when I got my hands on ggst, I pretty much dropped it. I just can’t deal with the bullshit that came with those auto combos (well that and the super dash shenanigans and the netcode lol).
@@VJ2099 totally understandable.
Like trust me I understand even other Acr system games that have auto combos like I mentioned at the top did them right.
All except FighterZ. Heck even in KOF 15 they finally let you special cancel them so they are opening up the bottom for newer players but still have the same high skill ceiling like all the other kof games.
They don't come out on whiff only on block or hit and I'm cool with that. Especially if the auto combo is not the Go to option or the stronger option. That would be bad game design.
Auto combos are the way for near players to walk into the door and if they like the game they take off the training wheels and experience THE TRUE game.
me when my boy tf2 rolls up outta nowhere
4:50 I know I'm late but they didn't remove meterless reversal, they just separated what invulnerabilities go to what button. For example Lights are throw invulnerable, Mediums are air invul, and Heavy are strike immune. You have to use meter to make it a full invulnerable reversal. I don't play street fighter, I just learned it from Brian_F he has a good video going over this.
( th-cam.com/video/allK0yxAr48/w-d-xo.html ) Source and a more in depth description.
everybody gangsta until blazblue stylish mode auto blocks and does high damge combos and does the hard combo that are done in specific scenario and fd fd block only attacks
Nice video, man! I've been a fan of your channel for a while and I love your content! I'm planning on making my own fighting game and a lot of your videos are extremely helpful-- in fact, I initially found your channel through your Setplay video while designing my own Setplay character.
However, I disagree with the auto combo portion of this video. My biggest problem with auto combos honestly have nothing to do with accessibility-- it's just how they're implemented. Usually, gatlings do not chain if the initial attack is whiffed and it costs quite a bit of meter to whiff cancel (like the Roman Cancel); however, auto combos in in Fighterz do not naturally whiff-- if you continue to mash the light button, the second and third hits will still come out, and the combos have full-screen carry so if the opponent tries to whiff punish you like in other games you can still come out on top. While this isn't thaaat bad on its own due to their low damage, the first and second hit can usually hit confirm into a full bnb with relatively minor damage scaling; they can also auto-correct side switching in order to automatically counter cross-ups. As a result, neutral in Fighterz is completely different than other games to the point where doing the universal 2H anti-air or a DP actually isn't the most effective tool to deal with an opponent above you-- it's simply mashing light. Games like GBFV have near-perfect auto combos imo.
Keep up the great work, man!
Yeah, I agree with autocombos being inoffensive to character difficulty ceilings. I just personally don't like how some of it is implemented. ~~mostly how Light Autocombo in Fighterz work~~
I'm fine with it being a pressure tool
im not fine with it being a fuckin neutral tool
Aside from that I'm fine with it
I personally think the best autocombo system is MBTL they just need to adjust the buffer a bit to be less lenient, it makes rejump combos a bit harder to get at times.
Also I think UNI's Autocombo is a great way to implement autocombo is a less mobile and more grounded and pokey anime fighter. Cause converting from like 3/4ths screen button into autocombo sounds toxic as shit.
such a good song at 1:40
I would also say street fighter 3ed strike also has a low floor due to how easy many of the inputs are.
Ya you can mess them up every so often but it's not like KoF.
Where I feel like I'm reading a book on inputs
Meanwhile you got Tekken which requires you to have a college degree to master.
Fantastic Vid
I bought Tekken 7 while waiting for my hitbox and I laughed for like 30 minutes when I found out there was no tutorial I am so fucked.
In my opinion, one of the hardest things about fighting games is the terminology. Unless you specifically play fighters, there are a ton of terms you just dont use. So when you start hearing them from the first time you get confused, especially when they are used to explaining something you already dont understand. It's like using calculus terminology to someone who is learning math. You arent wrong, but you are just complicating things for them.
Like any other genre.
The only fighting game player I know that also has unusuals in tf2
I always kinda think about this with platform fighters.
Like melee wavesdashing and L canceling vs project M and Rivals of Aether making them genuinely easier.
Because it's easier... is it more skillful? Or is it a hindrance?
For right now I don't know. But it's just a thing I thought about.
People out here beating Elden Ring, going Plat plus in FPS, finishing ironman runs in RPGs, and owning in Sports games pulling out shutout games but when it comes to Fighting games though...
Simple inputs are superior for accessibility. Change my mind.
To be honest I am one of the scrubs who doesn´t like meterless reversals. This probably comes from me liking Oki strong characters which usually comes with the downside that their neutral is not as strong (or maybe I just suck at it). So when I finally get somebody in neutral and can set up my oki it feels really shitty to have to guess. This is supposed to be a situation where I am strong but I am the one who has to guess?
You could also go the other route of giving everyone a meterless reversal so to level the field a bit but that is a balance nightmare so I guess that is out of the question.
Poggers
fun video. but i take issue with your fortress example
as you pointed out, soldier has 3 weapons. combine that with his movement options you might say he has a dozen different things to think about while he's moving around the map and trying to kill the enemy. fighting game characters, from the moment the announcer says "FIGHT", has access to dozens of inputs and abilities. so when you get to the part where you wonder aloud what would happen if you removed soldier's rocket launcher you, very rightly, feel that he is essentially ruined. but if you removed, say, a character's sweep or even something like a fireball, are they ruined? is their whole essence of being gone? i mean, theyre effectively ruined for you and i'd purposes.
your example would make a lot more sense if you as a team fortress player had access to all the characters' abilities all at once
i think the critical thing guys like you miss when talking about newer players is youve kinda forgotten what its like to be new. you made a joke early on about no one picking up SF4 and being disappointed that they couldnt land 1 frame links. that literally happened to me! i bought the g ame and wanted to play sakura but she was essentially unplayable to me since her basic gameplan involved landing a half dozen 1 frame links just to get on everyone else's level. i fell off the game hard but obviously i came back eventually, i just changed my priorities to different characters who i found fun but werent so demanding. i still cant really do 1 frame links but i either play games that have less of them or choose characters who have different strategies. i adapted, thanks in no part to the game since it didnt tell me what was possible
and that's what i think folks like you are missing. you can have all the depth and diversity of play you want in a game while also courting new players, games just need better systems to help new players learn, to join communities, and to feel like theyre getting somewhere. fighting games do not hide your failures as well as MOBAs or team games so changing the mindset from wins to learning is the key, but most fighting g ames have not embraced this in the slightest. and the community, too, is actively hostile to new players with videos like this that serve mostly to preach to a choir that is more interested in conserving FG's than helping them grow
and just to be clear, i like your content a lot and when your talking to other mid level players you are excellent. i just think youre a little patronizing when it comes to noobs but i think the whole community suffers from this, except for maybe sajam or brian_f
I think thats an interesting point but it may be that people have exaggerated the importance of execution for certain character in certain games that made you feel as if they were unplayable. I can assure you that hitting 1 frame links consistently are difficult for pros as well, and i think a mid level player being able to consistently pull off 1 frame links is unlikely. Given that i dont play sf and come from a melee and guilty gear perspective, a lot of characters have been exaggerated to be seen as the peak of execution. I think melee fox is one of those characters, who have been exaggerated by the community to be the peak of execution. Although he has a very high skill ceiling, i would argue that the execution really was not as bad as people said. Most characters are not rooted within such technical optimals and they are playable without being the living god of execution. I think you should go back and give makoto another try if you want to and try to build her up from the basics, instead of trying to achieve a very high level of a character when you first pick them up, because that is obvious not possible for anyone lol
I would consider your point the failure of the community to provide a good introduction to the character, not the game engine itself. Telling someone who just picked up the game that the only way to play the character is to do something thats hard for the majority of the fgc is obviously not the way to go, it should be more focused on strategy and basic combos, as those are really the fundamentals you want to hone, before you get technical with your combos imo.
I think i heard the words that i thought were best "a combo you can hit is better than a combo that youll drop". In other words, do shit that you can do consistently if you want to win. Practice if you want to do the harder stuff consistently, otherwise ull be dragging yourself down.
Most games having a completely useless tutorial also doesnt help that problem :/
soulcalibur and tekkn were my introduction to fighting games, although both games nowadays are not my cup of tea, i appreciate of what they are for the memories i have with them, however, lethal league blaze and guilty gear Xrd is what made me love the genre. llb being easy to learn hard to master really hooked me up, and Xrd is a spark i haven't felt in a while in a fighting game, i really have fun playing Xrd.
Tough Love Arena :0
KOF 14 also had auto combos too and are pretty ridiculous. U can mash light punch 4 times then cancel into a special then go in max mode then cancel into level 1 or level 2 super
Removing invincible meter less reversals wasn't about accessibility, it was a meta decision based on how many characters had dps and how that affected the game from match-up to matchup
9:10 what needs to change on inputs? TRADITION
HADOKEN & DP *DO NOT NEED TO OVERLAP* ! At all!!!
There was a dude that playd with one arm. And also that one blind pro MK player...
I definetely think fighting games as a whole need to modernize their buffer systems. No other genre drops my inputs like 2d Fighers. Additionally I wish there was more control customization allowed. Just the other day in guilty gear strive I had the idea to bind a second down button so playing on D-pad would be more comfortable, but GG strive dosent allow you to have more than 1 button for the same input.
Well you cant compare inputs in other genres to 2d fighters dude. Different genres dude
I wish auto combos were their own dedicated button. I like being able to rapid fire light attacks like some budget Jojo character.
i have to admit since im newer to fighting games aside from smash that i like having auto combos, and its completely fair that they do less damage overall. i think GG Rev2 got it right by straight up giving you the option to either play with auto combos or by letting you do every input manually. Also I have no idea what DP means in fighting game terms someone please explain.
Its short for "dragon punch".
In most contexts the term refers to the motion input "➡️↘️➡️", although i sometimes hear it be used to refer to any meterless reversal move that a character has.
Though if the reversal has a charge input that goes "⬇️⬆️" it's typically called a flashkick.
Both terms stem from street fighter moves
Many if not all DPs are usually invisible after a certain frame, some cases this can be complete invincibility or semi invisibility, what I mean by semi is that some may only work against projectiles, aerials, or grounded move, though usually never super
Gekko this was a great vid and I love ya but what the shit was that ending
Honestly i don't mind any sort of easier mode or auto combos as long as we have the choice of not using them
being easier aside i also find those modes useful when im not using a controller im comfortable with
For example when im playing on an emulator on my phone when im outside, doing complex inputs on a touch screen is quite awful and movement is impossible since i dont wanna damage my screen with my nails so i can't even use the tip of my fingers
So games with easy controls can still be enyojable with the limited controls i have
Didn't know you could play tough love arena on your phone.
See you on the notebook - Spicy Salami #4030
Outro song?
Melee: Dafuqs that?
@Kayden McCallum which is still a fighting game
i think all videos should end like this one does.
I think that smash should have been mentioned here
Thing is, sometimes it's difficult to tell if certain skill contributes to skill floor or skill ceiling more.
Let me elaborate. I'm an RTS player mostly, but for a time I REALLY wanted to dive into fighting games because a lot of my friends played them. We played GGXX reload mostly, and it was hella cool... But also hella frustrating at times. I mained Johnny, and managed to be more or less competitive against my friends by performing better in neutral, so... One might say that skill floor wasn't that high in that game, right? Well, I dunno. Having to score like 10 hits for victory against your enemies 2 or 3 feels bad and unsatisfying. So, i tried to pick up some combos, and go absolutely. Zero. Progress.
I had known literally one short aerial combo at a time, so I tried to learn more ways to setup it. I thought that 6K can only lead to air combo in counter hit... And then I was proven wrong. Sometimes I was able to get white beat out of this move. Sometimes grey. And the worst part is - I could not tell the difference if my life depended on it! It felt completely random. I understand that you had to press a jump in some particular window, but... I couldn't find it. And I dropped the game after it. Apparently I don't have the proper "stats" for this genre.
So. Was the ability to combo off 6K part of a skill floor or skill ceiling? I believe neither. It's not technically a floor - I was able to play without it. It definitely isn't a cap - that kind of stuff feels completely basic for any experienced player. But anyway, combos felt absolutely necessary to keep up with my friends, to improve forward, to become a mid-range player. And I couldn't make it.
nice shout out to tough love arena
I think power rangers battle for the grid handles it best. By removing the wack ass gate keeping of motion inputs u can focus on the actual combos.
Oml i think ive fought gekkosqurriel in tough love arena before
Granblue has done the easy input thing best so far. It's not removing skill, it's adding options. One one hand you can spam dps with z motion or you can easy input and lose your dp for a few seconds, it's up to you. On the other hand you can't just flash kick with one button, you can flash kick WHILE WALKING FORWARD completely shifting the metagame of what could've just been another SF wannabe. It has a palpable level of added strategy other grounded footsies games like SFV and Strive don't have and the greater level of consistency in execution makes players focus more on the mind games earlier in their learning experience instead of having to 100 hours grinding a b&b in training mode before they even learn to fucking block.
i'm sorry you're talking something very valid and useful but i cannot focus on anything but that anji dropping his combo over and over again by doing fujin instead of kou
As one of those scrubs who couldn't land one-frame links in SFIV, I'll try to keep this under the essay-limit. Characters with meterless reversals in SFV could de-emphasize the other universal defensive mechanics and end up making their disadvantage state focused around that one move. Mechanics don't exist in a vacuum, if one mechanic is making another redundant or less efficient then that can also lower the skill ceiling by reducing the number of viable outcomes from a particular interaction.
For the record there's a bit of snark in my first sentence, but I'm fully aware that I may be talking out my ass and I would like to be informed if I am.
Based Tough Love Arena player
as someone who has a little bit of experience with fighthing games but not much (aka im a noob and i suck): im personally not a huge fan of autocombos for _myself_, not because i think its unfair or something, but because the existence of autocombos meant i never felt as motivated to actually learn combos lol like i agree whats said about autocombos in this vid i just mean its not really for me bc i am hard to motivate lmao
as for motion inputs: until a week ago i hated motion inputs bc i couldnt do them lmao but turns out it really depends on the game: in some games i can do motion inputs just fine but in others its near impossible despite practicing for hours, so yea i think they dont need to remove motion inputs but i do think they should allow a small bit of room for error
the main reason I dropped dbfz was the training, HOLY SHIT DO I WANT TO FALL ASLEEP. *Maybe it's because it's just not for me* but god is it boring, I don't want to have to study a game just so I can get to the fun part when the only ways I can practice is a shit single player mode and sitting alone with a bot that I can almost hear ''why don't you play something else?''. The main reason I played it was for the combos and after dropping it and played dmc5 I had 100x more fun. To me, what stopped me from getting any enjoyment from it was the tedious process of training, and I'm not talking about how I hate the fact that I have to practice, because I like to draw, play fps games, dark souls and other things that require such practice, however they have actual fun training process.
Dude I started playing tough love arena today and this game is really fun. I can't find to many opponents though so comment if you want to fight me.
i love motion inputs but i absolutely despise direction inputs. i never could get into any smash type game because of that
This is my baby-non-competitive-I-have-no-knowledge-of-fighting-games-beyond-being-kind-of-novice opinion, but aren't Autocombos kind of just like... attack strings in a sense? They don't really bug me too much, and they're mostly filler in combos right? They've never been too intrusive have they? I could see them being kind of annoying in Tekken or Soul Calibur, but again what do I know lol? I don't see anything wrong with their inclusion, especially reading some of the comments in here talking about getting friends into FGs in games with auto-combos who graduate past relying on them and feeling a sense of pride in doing so.
Inputs never seemed to bother me too much, at least when I played games on my stick. It was a bit more difficult doing Right-Side DP inputs on my pads (421 / ←↓↙ ), but I bet they could've been done given practice. There were some cases where it'd be difficult doing certain inputs in combos with tight timing. Like I remember getting frustrated with SFV trying to learn a combo with Chun-Li where you do Spinning Bird Kick almost immediately after doing a standing jab or something... I can't remember the input/combo since that was quite a while ago, but yeah. Inputs I don't think are really a difficult hurdle to overcome, just doing them in tough spots/combos. It's another instance of people needing to be willing to learn these things/having patience that they can pull it off over time.
Also, surprised you didn't mention Granblue VS here, but I guess you may not have played it? It kind of tries to do a lot of the simplification of controls too + auto-combos, but it still has the option for you to do a lot of stuff manually. I imagine somebody with more know-how than I could probably explain the intricacies of it better, but it seemed like a happy balance of being easy to pick up and maaaaybe having a relatively high ceiling? Again I am probably wrong, but that was the impression I got lol. I actually quite liked the feel of the game and really loved the character designs.
I'm the exact blend of bad and stubborn to complain when they dumb things down but still kinda needing it cus I'm awful at these games despite playing them for more than a decade
In the vid you said tekken didn't have auto combos. Prince noctis from tekken has auto combos tho
I wish more fighting games had Blazblue CF’s stylish vs technical system. Keeps the skill ceiling high while lowering the floor. Keeps the dopamine flowing for new players which is a big deal nowadays… I mean look at Mario Odyssey it rewards you more than a slot machine.
Thoughts?
I think good in-depth tutorials and trials, good netcode and good matchmaking are all you need to welcome newcomers, as far as in-game systems concern.
Something I don't see enough people talk about are the things that can be done *_outside_* the game to bring in newcomers.
Good marketing is a no-brainer, but things like a well moderated Discord server, active forums, art contests, TH-cam videos by the creators and weekly tournaments are some other things that can have a large impact on the game's success.
That skill cealing too high