What The Chipload Formula Does Not Tell You! | Advanced CNC Router Lesson
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ม.ค. 2021
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After over 10,000 hours of CNC machining I have found 3 scenarios in which the chipload equation can be wrong. These lessons I have learned overtime and now they save me time and money. This is a more advanced look at Feedrate, RPM and the CNC Router. I hope this helps Woodworkers and CNC Machinist
Downloadable Excel Feeds and Speeds Sheet!!
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Acceleration and Deceleration - 1:30
Centrifugal Load - 10:09
Too Much Torque - 15:00
About Cuttin It Close:
Founded in 2020 Cuttin It Close is the educational platform of Drapela Works we look to provide value and insight on various wood related projects and techniques. Through training videos, CNC router techniques, unique projects, and practical applications, we hope to share our knowledge in the woodworking field and CNC Routering.
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Great video, and thank you for the metric section! :) Can you share the excel file?
One of the better videos for those of us with hobbyist machines. Thank you. I would like to be able to go to a website with your chip load calculator.
Amazing video! You are a great explainer and a teacher. I hope to see you make more content like this in the future so that we newbies can avoid and account for problems beforehand. Great work again!
Great video with both the theoretical and practical examples. Much appreciated.
Great video. Thanks for all of your research and experience in putting this information together. I like this type of content and encourage you to continue providing it from time to time.
Acemi insanlara başlamaları için harika referans noktaları verdin. Teşekkürler. Türkiyeden selamlar
I just finished watching this video, and felt myself continuing to get smarter, and smarter. I'm using my son's laptop, and my wife's google account, primarily because my pass word was so good neither of us can remember it, and changing it again means updating everything in the house. Your offer to share the file is appreciated, though I see I've been binge watching your 2 yr old CNC videos cause they're still completely relevant and news to me, as I'm looking towards the time when would consider venturing into this realm. I'm trying to watch them in order, though that doesn't always happen with TH-cam. I'm a Hobbyist, trying to become a Full-Time,-Sure-Enough,-No-kidding,-Real-Live-Wood-Worker, and YOU, my friend are being mightily used by our GOD for that purpose. Thanks for everything. Your life story is an inspiration too a great many, I'm sure you won't know how far you reach this side of heaven.
GREAT EXPLANATION on this topic.
I've watched hours and hours of videos and your explanation is the only one I've understood. The car example is an awesome way to explanation.
Thanks so much
Excellent explanation! Well done. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Thanks! One of the most useful videos about practical application of speeds and feeds!
Hahaha I know this is a two year old video, but still great info! Loved the chuckle after the bend and snap, wonder how many people got that one!
Appreciate it!
Thank you for sharing, been learning so much from your channel! And also thank you for the metric sheet!
Thanks for the video...as a new guy in cnc your video help me have an idea how it work
This is super great! I hope you get compensated for your teaching. Thanks man
Since I work with larger CNC routers, that info that applies more to them is handy. Power tends to be a non issue for me with the size of the machine, I feed 1/2 3 wing bits at 30,000 mm/min no problem if need be for chiploading. I'd like to see a video detailing clamp based work holding, as that's what I would be using if I got my own home CNC and what I use at work is vacuum spoil board nesting cell and vacuum pod routers.
Great videos, I learned a lot, love the energy you share the knowledge keep up.
Very enlightening video. Thank you!
Great info ! i learnd alot, the metric section is great ! now i can understan things..
A great video. I can certainly use the chart. I run a desktop machine and it's been a guessing game. Thanks for a website for this online.
Super useful! Thank you for sharing!
Yes please! Make the website, this is so useful. Nice one 🎉
GREAT EXPLANATION on this topic.
Yes on the website. Very educational thanks for all the hard work you put into these videos, very much appreciated.
Perfect, I will get to work on one.
Thanks for the metric values ! :)
Big yes to the website
I posted this to the wrong video before
Congratulations on your videos, they are very informative and knowledgeable.(12.30) Can I add something if you are talking about tools, tool life, and feed speed? I notice that ( still) very often collet chucks are used. When it comes to important production quantities, speed becomes very important. Faster milling places more demands on the tool and optimum operation becomes necessary. A collet chuck has run-out tolerances of up to 0.06 mm. This does not seem much, but ensures that, for example, with a two-piece tool, only one edge works in full. In turn, this causes vibrations and leads to tool breakage. In order to counter this, a more precise clamping system is needed. You achieve that with ao. shrinkage systems (heat or polygonal) or with the now somewhat less used ( and expensive) hydro systems.
The concentricity is increased to 0.004mm. Both cuts work fully, the tool runs smoother with less vibration, feed can be increased and the risk of breakage is significantly reduced. The workpiece finish is much better.
Something to Consider?
Your info is great, one day I may have an idea what I am doing.
This video is gold for me
Access to your chip load calculator would be awesome!
Yes on the website 😁👍
I suspect that a lot of smaller cnc machines don't have the drive system to cut at the rpm of their router or spindle. It seems like lower rpm options are needed, even down in the 500 - 1000 rpm range.
Great video!
Thanks a lot for metric translation.
...and that excel sheet, would ge a dream.. :)
@@cutting-it-close , thank you sir!
Awesome videos! Website would be great or even just a link on Google docs would be cool too.
yes please a chip load sight would be awesome.,
Access to your chip load calculator would be very helpfull.
Your videos it's helpful thank you.
The data in your exal for HSS Bits or it well be change if we use carbide bit if we cutting Aluminum as example?
Hi, thanks for your explanations. Can you please give me a link to the chipload table you use?
As per your video, If you cannot run at a slower RPM (say 8000 rpm) because the spindle does not produce enough torque for chip evacuation, what in your experience would be the options that would obtain the correct 'chip evacuation' - and avoid burning CNC router bits (other than spending megabucks on a high powered CNC)?
Another great video. having access to to the excel file would be nice.
Thank you very much for the vid and advices.
I bought a CNC router last month, and since then I have been watching your vids bro!
Please, can I have a copy of the excel calculator or a link where I can find the same?
Thank you again, cheers bro!
Great info and just what I wanted. I had some problems with a large bit and now I have some ideas how to sort it.
I would love some more info on sales. Where you sell and how you sell.
Real fundamental stop as I'm stuck a just getting started.
Thanks in advance
Glad it helped!
Great Video, I just wish I watched it before I burned my spoil board ! LOL
A website, or an excel sheet, would be very helpful especially if you could actually put in types of wood by name instead of classifying them as hardwood, softwood, etc. with recommended chipload, where one could see at a glance. Great vids bye the way. Thanks.
Question for you : the feed and speed are for 100% bits engagement , If doing coutouring what should be the engagement ? 100% or less , Thanks for your reply .
great vidio
Thank You!
Excellent video! Could you possibly take it one step further on the Laguna and run some different bits at correct/incorrect feeds/speeds so we can hear what correct/incorrect settings sound like? Desktop machines are mainly set by ear, and right now, mine hurt trying to figure it out (3/8" Vortex flat spiral upcut in an Axiom Pro).
That one is going to need to be ran at probably 12,000 RPM.
this is excellent work!
I have 2 questions
Does your router apply G60/G64 (acceleration G-code)? in that case, it will be much easier for you.
is 0.82mm/flute chip load ok for carbide Skil tool 1/4" at 5000RPM (I am more of a milling guy than a router and I am actually using my milling machine with a sweeper temporarily for the wood job)
Thanks for sharing the knowledge. Where can I find the metric excel file?
So for the last example of a low feed rate and lower rpm, you can change / decrease the number of flutes I assume.
One of the best videos!!!!!! Could you or someone share the formula in your spreadsheet?
Just found out that the workable spreadsheet could be downloaded and used. 😀
Another informative, well explained video. Great presentation. Does using bits with more than 2 flutes help some of these situations?
You would have to run them even faster. Those bits are better for longer straight lines
Great video, well done mate. A question about the excel sheet, does it apply to compression bits? for example, I use a 4mm compression bit which requires a deeper cut to work properly. Can I apply the figures on my machine?
The bit itself would want the same chipload, it’s just a question of which feed/speeds your servo motors and spindle can handle
Hi, great detail and information, thanks. Regaring the chip Excel sheet, what would you class ply wood with HPL (high pressure laminate) on both sides? WOuld this be the plywood column or MDF/Particle wood? Or something else? Also, for cutters inbetween sizes you have listed, do you have the chip loads for these? I use 5mm cutters, 8mm etc - or where could I find this information? Thanks
That's a hybrid, it would be trail and error to see if you have any chip outs on your laminate or not.
@@cutting-it-close cheers mate. Yes i agree. I've tried compression but cant get on with them. Prefer 1st pass down cut and remainder up cut. All rhe best👍👍
Loving your videos! Why do you switch between Laguna and ShopSabre? I have been doing due diligence for choosing our machine and your input would be helpful.
He was showing the difference between more robust industrial machines and homeowner benchtop machines.
Hi love the channel. What program would you recommend for the laguna iq 2x3? Im going to use it mostly for engraving
Vectric V Carve Pro
Still got problems with a large surfacing bit. Its 76.8mm with 4 blabes.
I am trying to surface an end grian cutting board.
Left to right, no problem. Right to left i get problems.
It either burns or bogs down and stalls. Ive tried various feeds and speeds. My spundle is 2.2 hp top speed 18000 rpm and max 3 meters per minute. Any suggestions would be grateful received. 🙏
So... on my Laguna IQ Pro, same spindle as yours, there is no way to come close to recommended chip loads, is there? On your chart (thanks for the download!), for a 1/4" bit, with a MAXIMUM safe IPM setting of say, 100ish, to get to the recommended chip load of .011, I would have to slow the bit down to 4500 rpm, which my spindle can't do, and which would likely damage the bit anyway. So - WHAT DO WE, with smaller desktop CNCs, DO?!?!?!? Sorry to shout - it's getting frustrating! I make a LOT of fine sawdust on mine. I run it as fast as is comfortable - 40-60 IPM, and run the bits at 18,000 - no chips, just saw dust. Should I run it say, at 80 IPM and slow down the RPM on the bit to 15,000? I guess this explains why my CNC is happier running 1/8" bits. I can run it at 80 IPM, 14,000 RPM and get in the chip load zone of .003. So how do I run a 1/4" bit on it successfully? What feed/speed do you run a 1/4" bit on the Laguna? Thanks!
Access to the chip load spreadsheet would be appreciated now it has Metric for us in UK
Formula = Feed Rate / (RPM * # of Flutes). If you have Excel/google docs it's pretty easy to just recreate it.
Thanks for the video. I have a hobbist cnc (Onefinity) but does what I will be doing only working with wood.
Your calc sheet has DOC at 1x to 2x the bit diameter suggestions. I have seen some advise to reduce feedrate by 20% if cutting 2x diameter. Any thoughts on that?
Is chart of chip load ranges related to a specific bit manufacturer or does it reflect more? Is it conservative?
How do I find out how low RPM I can safely run my Makita router at? Is a 10k to 20k a reasonable operating range or some other low limit on bit diameter?
Any comments is appreciated.
Yes reducing the feedrate for a deeper cut is something that I do at times depending on the bit and material cutting. I talked to bit exerts and they said that chip load is chip load no matter how deep, but I still reduce the feedrate when cutting 2x-3x diameter.
All of the chipload charts are relatively the same from company to company.
You will hear your router bog down if it can't handle the torque from that low of RPM's. My 3hp spindle cannot handle a 3/8'' bit running at 12,000 RPM with a feedrate higher than 150 cutting into baltic at 1x diameter. A lot of variables to take into consideration. But think of torque whenever you are running low RPM,s.
Solid questions! I hope this helps some.
@@cutting-it-close Thanks for reply.
Question about your spreadsheet for calculating chip loads. When I look at a 1/4" endmill in a Makita router the tables I have seen have a target of 0.004 chip load. When I use use spreadsheet I can't get chip loads in the 0.011- 0.013 range below 250 ipm feeds. I feel this is too high feeds.
Am I not understanding your table targets...(maybe target is single flute or something???). Is my target for a Makita router CNC 0.004 or 0.011- 0.013?
Hello...very helpfull video and well explained👍👍...great job👍👍.
Would it be possible to get a copy of your excel spreadsheet?
Thank you for your effort.
@@cutting-it-close Thank you so very much👍👍🙂🙂
I would love to see that file available especially a metric version
Great video! Thank you. I'm in a process of buying hobby desktop machine and I'm not sure what to expect of it in a sense of speeds and feeds. I would like to ask you for oppinion. It's 150x78x10cm, 2.2kW water cooled spindle motor, Nema34 hybrid steper motors one for each axies, extruded aluminum profile construction with 20mm cast aluminum plate that holds gantry, ball screw system, mdf workbed... I would like to use it for cutting solid wood up to minimum of 4cm and acrylic, and carving Don't know if I missed something? Thank you in advance.
It should be able to handle all of that, might not be able to run a 12mm bit at 100% speed but it should do everything you are looking for.
@@cutting-it-close Thanks!
@@cutting-it-close I played a bit with your excel sheet and I tried to hit chipload for hardwood with 6mm bit. It seams that I need to go over 3k feed and below 9k rpm. Am I doing something wrong? I was cutting with that bit at 1.7m/min and 15k rpm, chips looked good and sound was fine so as finish... I'm just getting more confused.
This is really great for me. I would be pleased when you have the chart on a website. Thank you.
Question
If you have a router that only does 18,000 rpm. You can just adjust your feed rate to get to ,018 right ???
Atleast close to that number. Right ??
There is a way around the low rpm / torque issue for smaller or midsize machines. Cheaper spindles on the market are just that, cheap, and this is what is packaged on many machines today. They suffer more from torque issues at lower rpms than brand name routers. Because of the nature of the smaller machines (budget usually being the main issue) these cheaper spindles have taken over the market with little benefit over a good router. Yes, you may have more rpm control, but that's about where it ends.
In fact, a top end router, with a set of precision collects (precisebits.com) wired up to SuperPid.com will give you full torque from 5000 rpm - max rpm with infinite control. With this combo, you can run bigger bits with slower ipm as long as your machine is ridgid enough to handle it and cut like a much larger machine.
Very interesting to say the least. I have a smaller machine but have a HSD spindle controlled by a Mitsubishi VFD. I am at the understanding that I still will have full torque even at lower speeds?
Well your hsd spindle is a very quality setup... Which is not the norm, but are you having torque issues? To clarify, the SuperPid is designed for routers.
In a nutshell yes, that is the case. I have been running the SuperPid with no issues that I am aware of. Currently I use a modified Hitachi router and have full band rpm controll from 5000 - 31000. Running at low rpm you will hear (and can watch) the rpms on the readout dance around slightly as it adjusts power for the load. There is no stalling what so ever and corrections are made in micro seconds.
I have also verified the rpms with another quality rpm guage and found the readings coming off of the superpid to be pretty much identical while under load.
Mistakingly, the other day I was surfacing some southern yellow pine and really screwed up the cam in a rush. I ended up taking a .3" doc at 150ipm with a 1.5" bottom clearing bit running at 12k with almost no step over. At first I was shocked and almost hit the kill switch, but realized the machine was doing it just fine and did, so I let it go. The finish was not the best, but I hogged a lot of wood off the slab in 2 minutes!
So yes, it works, and it works well. Combine with a good collet system, I run 1/8, 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 on this router, I have quite the selection of bits for any job.
I am very surprised by how little this setup ever took hold on the hobby market and honestly a small job shop. The lure of having a machine with a 'spindle' and 'vfd' has taken precedent over a superior option for a non commercial machine.
Now for those reading this... I am in no way saying spindles and vfds are not good. I am saying unless you are willing to spend a $1k+ or more on one... Chances are, the setup above will literally cut circles around it.
Yes make the website
you have to maintain the chip load.because it depend on the tool you use on the specific material, you either change spindle speed or feed rate.not chip load.
how much power is needed for milling can be checked and the fact that at lower speeds the spindle can't do it is because its speed depends on how much power we give it, the 800w spindle 24000 rpm at maximum speed has 800W of power at 12000rpm it has only 400W ...
Gig 'em!
What you describe here as torque limit for me (not yet a machinist but electrical engineer) sounds like a limitation of the motor type you are having in the spindle. What you say is an awful lot like a limitation of torque produced by an asynchronous motor (in many cases that would be a so-called induction motor) at low rotation speeds. Those electrical machines need some minimal speed to induce current in rotor winding. Low speed means poor induction leading to low current and low torque. The peak torque is usually at about 80% of rated speed for those machines.
Thanks for the video. G0 to like button.
A website will be great esp so you have all bits and pieces
can all ask and respond. Clearly responses must be vettted by you’re team.
Try this FPM= FPT X T X RPM
Website chart please
Can you upload the excel sheet to thus video?
what do you make?
Just discovered you. Great videos.
You are clipping your audio in almost every single video though. Turn down the gain on your mic.
According to this I am running my CNC too slow and my router needs sped up as well!
Upload the Excel File
I know I am late to the party so if you already made the site please let me know. Thank you
Hi Ryan what’s the web address
Can you share the Excel on google drive? You just need a gmail account, you don't need a webpage and its free. Thanks
That’s great thanks!
A fellow aggie
You cut it so close you clipped the outro.
Wow 2 years ago ! 😳
I’m only just getting started with CNC Now !
Did you share that Excel file ?
From Down under 🦘
Cheers
Andy 😊