Feeds, Speeds, and Chiploads For A Small CNC Made Easy
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.ย. 2024
- CNC feeds and speeds aren't the same for every machine. Bit manufacturers provide suggested feeds, speeds, and chip loads. That's all well and good if your machine is industrial and can run 750ipm +. Entry level machines won't run at these recommended specs.
You could always use the special formula (rpm x # of flutes x chip load) to find your feed rate, which will likely well exceed what an entry level machine can operate at. Or, you can make adjustments like I did and dial in the sweet spot for your home shop machine.
It's not an impossible and doesn't require a mathematical degree. Check out how I dialed in the running specs for my Shark HD5
#cnc, #feeds&speeds, #Feedrate, #chipload,
Amana 46202-K 1/4" down cut endmill
Amana 45624-K 60° V bit
Awesome Chris! Thanks for taking the time to make this video. This is well beyond what anyone else’s has done even the pros with their “commercial” machines. For anyone just getting started in CNC like me I think this testing should be done before anything else. Seems like it will save a lot broken and worn out bit issues.
Thank you for watching & the kind words. It's supposed to help those with small machines and give some idea of a baseline to start. It definitely helps to understand what bits and machines can do, then save the data as a baseline in the software. Good luck on your cnc journey.
Totally agree, thanks for the effort. To me it looks like the tests that we do on 3D printers, so smart.
Thank you for your video!! This is exactely what i was looking for!!!! GREAT VIDEO
Thank you for watching. I hope it helps provide a little better understanding and a starting point.
I am really diving into feeds and speeds before I get my Axiom Iconic8 which gets delivered tomorrow. This is very informative! One more thing that would be very interesting that I will probably do when I get setup and run this test is get an infrared temp reader and check the bit temp at the end of each cut to see how the bit is handling the speed/feed. I currently have a X Carve and I have toasted (3) 1/4" bits running them too slow. Thanks for all of your hard work on this!
Some bits stay cooler due to coatings, but running them at high rpms and slow feed rates will certainly decrease life.
Using the mfg data as a starting point then dialing down to match machine and project specs helps. Then make notes in vectric for said bit.
Great video Chris, appreciate you making and sharing this. I know it was definitely time consuming, but it helps tremendously.
Thank you, I"m glad it was a benefit.
Amazing timing... last night, before I went to bed, I was conjuring up a test ... much like what you showed in this great video. This morning, I stumbled across your video. Thanks for confirming my intuition, doubts, insecurities, etc. I wasted a lot of time building a "Tool Library" in Vectric Cut2D, with crazy numbers that only a commercial grade machine could really use... I'm looking forward to duplicating your test on my Grunblau Platform machine...Thanks!
Thank you for watching. There are many other options to consider when dialing in a bit & machine, but this gets you a good baseline.
Of all the "feeds and speeds" videos I watched, this was the FIRST one to tell and show me how to test my specific machine so I can document my recommended feeds and speeds for MY setup.
If I purchased an off-the-shelf cnc from Shapeoko and the rest, they would have most of the F&S documented already - which is a *significant* value for a new CNC-er. I built my own setup based on recommendations from a friend in the industry and it's capabilities are somewhere in the middle to low-middle range of CNCs out there. Now I know how to figure out the best settings for it!
THANK YOU for **demonstrating** how to test a machine! Well done! (Yes, it wasn't a fun and interesting video, but it was just as valuable - maybe more valuable - than the fun ones!)
Thank you for all the kind words. That was the reason I did the video. There was nothing out there showing and explaining. I'm glad it helped.
Thank you for your vid, learned a lot
Happy it was a help. Thank you for watching.
Straight and clear. Thanks buddy! Greetings from Sicily
Thank you. I'm glad it was helpful.
Great Video . it is what we all want to see.
keep going Man ^_^
Thank you. I'll keep trying.
Best video I've seen on this, great job!
Thanks for watching and I appreciate the kind words. Just trying toput out things that would have helped me when I started.
Chris i have been breaking down each aspect of the cnc - enclosurer, dust collector, types bits, running Easel program, types of wood, and feeds and speeds. I just cut some plywood to 20x24 and was planning on creating a sample board. Not exactly sure what way to do it, your video was a great help! Thank you.❤
I ran into the same issue. I finally came up with this as an initial idea. I hoped it would help somebody. Thank you for watching.
Thanks mate, much appreciated!
Glad it helped
thank you Christ
Very informative, I am new in CNC my machine is all made of alluminum. I bought a CNC4Newbie frame and I'm going to do all these test. Thank you very much. excuse my english, French is my first language.
Thank you for watching. I'm happy it was a help. I'd certainly run a few different options to see what works best. Dialing down the rpm will help for those machines that can't run fast feed rates. Smaller bits (1/8" and less) rarely have many issues. It's usually just the 1/4" and above.
I liked it. Very informative.
My hat is off to you
Thank you for watching. I hope it was helpful.
Nice! Just finishing up a diy 18.5"x 50" with open loop nema 34 motors at 24v and 3.7 amps (they get very warm but not HOT) and a 1. 5kw air cooled 3phase 110v air cooled spindle . I really like your approach to find the chip load capacity of various materials I'll be using with my machine. Thanks for posting.
Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment. Like anything in life, cnc machines and milling tools have too many variables based on the material being used. I enjoy running tests, as it helps provide a decent baseline to use when setting things up and offers a deeper understanding (and a visual) of what to expect.
Thank you for sharing!
Oh yeah. Anything to encourage other ideas.
Great explanation of testing your Machine/Bit Selection for Feed/Speed/Plunge/Chip Load. I'm going to run this test on my Laguna IQ to revise my Speeds & Feed Database. Thank you for sharing.
Thank you for watching. This is just the start but it will at least give you a baseline. Harder materials like exotic lumber and some domestic may require a shallower depth of cut and/or slower feed rates to save bits and machine load.
Chris, I'm assuming that the plunge depth is 1/8" deep (.125) and it appears that you are using the ramp to enter the material on your test.
@@jamesopell My general rule of thumb is 1/2 the bit diameter = depth of cut and unless I'm drilling, I always use a ramp (usually smooth). There are exceptions, but this is a good general rule to follow until you get more familiar with how certain materials will cut and how the bits will react. Most small machines (the IQ included) don't have enough torque and speed to use deeper cuts at faster feeds. The result is more deflection and chatter, which translates into poor cut quality.
Router bits typically aren't designed to simply plunge. A ramp eases it into the cut, which is better for the bit, machine and the material.
@@ChristcrossCrafts Thank you so very much for this valuable information. I'm so glad to have found your channel and will be come a loyal follower. Thanks so much.
@@jamesopell Anytime. I don't post a ton on CNC, but felt there was a need for this information and wanted to share. It was worth all the work to get the data for reference. If nothing else, it helps me dial in my machines.
Tremendous video. Thanks!
Thank you for watching. I'm glad it was of some help. This doesn't cover all the bases, but will certainly get you close.
Looks like the bit in this pass 3:26 has jumped/twitched at the middle of the pass, do you see it folks? And for groove N6 3:20 rpm is 12000 or 14000 actually?
The bit does move at that point. 12k @ 110ipm was not the best option, but was the combo used to obtain the recommended chipload. That's the part of testing... to see what works and what doesn't. That low of an rpm didn't allow the bit to spin enough to remove the material at that feed rate.
Thanks for the great info.
Thanks for watching. I hope it was a help.
Running a bit below its recommended chip load creates heat in the bit, reduces the bit life and runs the risk of scorching your material. Your test demonstrated that your spindle doesn't have the power to run 2 flute bits anywhere near their recommended chip load. I would suggest switching to single flute bits for the majority of your work on this machine.
Its a balancing act to reduce heat and keep keep feedrates and cut quality high. This was one of many tests.
The router had plenty of power to spin the bit, but the machine rigidity could not handle the feedrate required to achieve it and left cuts less than quality.
@@ChristcrossCrafts It's not about just spinning the bit. It is about maintaining the correct speed and I could hear your spindle bogging down in both of the passes that were near the rated chip feed. Of course part of this is because you were using the electronic speed control on your Bosch router which reduce the output torque along with the rpm. If it was an HSD spindle you could reduce the rpm without sacrificing torque.
@@chrisose agreed! That was part of the point in showing how underpowered small machines are and how NOT to use bit mfg specs. They will either wreck your machine or bit, or leave poor cut results.
I've heard too many people say to use lower feed rates on smaller cnc's but never discuss the importance of maintaining proper feed (& speed) to obtain correct chipload.
Ive since upgraded to a more rigid machine and 3hp spindle. Still not the best but much closer to enable ideal specs.
@@ChristcrossCrafts A more important point is to select bits that can run at proper chip loads on your machine instead of running bits well outside there designed feed and speed.
@@chrisose thats true but single flute isn't as easy to find in certain sizes and configurations. Sometimes minor concessions are made.
Thanks Chris. This was most enlightening and should be quite helpful for getting "better" performance from my Laguna IQ. 👍👍 FYI ....... Liked and Sub'd too.
Your Laguna will be similar to my Axiom specs, which the video to that test should be available soon.
@@ChristcrossCrafts I'll be looking for that one. Thanks for the heads up.
Didn't say what your depth of cut was for the bits
I used 1/8" depth of cut for the test.
Great video Chris. I can appreciate how much time it takes to produce a test such as that so thank you.
I’m only very new to CNC and have just bought my First Lady week. An OpenBuilds 1500 x 1000 with 1.5kw spindle and VFD.
Can I ask what that small screen at the right front of your machine is please ?
Thank you for watching. Congrats on your new toy.
The Shark CNC has a handheld pendant option instead of having to use a PC. You save the file to a thumb drive and plug & play. It completely controls the machine and functions.
@@ChristcrossCrafts Ahhh I see. Yes with mine it has the same feature, I can use my mobile phone 👍
Thanks for the explanation Chris 😊
Nice video and I like how you did your testing ,thank you. The question is would the feeds and speed you used on oak be the same with plywood, MDF, pine, hickory, and so on as each wood is different.
Thanks for watching. Sadly, the feeds & speeds will vary based on material. Mdf allows for higher, while harder woods require slower. Add in the machine variable and its an ever changing process.
If you can get a baseline (the reason I used oak) it makes it easy to put notes on each bit you test in vectric.
This is designed to help you gain a better understanding of your machine and reasonable starting points.
@@ChristcrossCrafts Thank You for the info
What is capability of your CNC machine, i.e. Spindle power and Maximum rate along X/Y/Z-axes?
On the machine in the video I didn't have a spindle. I was using a Bosch 2-1/4hp router. Shark does now offer a 2 & 3hp spindle option (If you have a Shark, the 3hp is the way to go).
As for "maximum" rate (under load), that will be determined by the bit, depth of cut, part type getting milled (2D, 3D, small vs large), and material. If you want specs, not under load, that is different.
Why u dont insert bit in collet , u need to insert the bit in collet more , because like u inserted it will have mode runout , and more flex , and of course more chatter .
Tha amana tool bits have a mark they suggest you set the bit into the collet. That mark is what I use to install the bit.
@@ChristcrossCrafts i agree they suggest to use the mark , but think the bits made for spindles with low runnout , our spindle doesnt have that , and that u need to inset it more in collet , because the most u get him out the more runout u have , and more vibrations .
Have you run this same test against the Axiom? Assuming you did, did you record the process and make a separate video? Thanks.
I did do this on both my Pro and Elite. I have a separate video showing the results. I didn't do the elaborate process of collecting the chips, but did do a feed/speed test to obtain some baseline results.
Hey. Nice video. I have a question on making my diy machine cut faster? Thanks in advance for any assistance
That's a tough one. I don't know your current setup but... Faster feed rates require a heavy gantry, ball screws & linear guide rails instead of belts, and steppers with a lot of torque.
You can't really upgrade one of these without improving others. HD steppers on a belt will just stretch or break belts. HD steppers without a gantry that will hold up to the quick movements will leave chatter and lots of vibration.
The stand its on, a spindle vs a router (or 3hp router vs 1hp) will also contribute to the ability to gain more speed. There are other factors but this is a good start.
@@ChristcrossCrafts Thanks a lot for your timely response. The stepper motors are quite large not sure the size off top of my head. They are attached to linear ball screws.
i just try search and looking what feed and speed need use my new 2mm and 3mm bit and V-bit 15 degree 6mm-0,3mm carving bit. but all have only old cavemen imperial dimensions, need normal metric system know feed and speed, spindle not can setting less 10 000 RPM. 10K-24K normal. little tip, 97% all earth use metric system, only 3 country use old historic cavemen imperial system today.
Do a quick internet search for inch per minute to mm per minute. Fill in your specks and jot down the result. A few minutes now saves a lot of work later.
there is a high pitch noise in your video that gave me a massive headache :(
The sounds was left on to showcase the different pitches that can help identify the proper feed rate. I apologize if it bothered you. It's worse in person.
apnormal use big router at spindle not good and noise lot, normal used real good spindle lot less noise and lot bettr lifetime and accurate than hand router, and real spindle have lot lot better bearings than worst router have. newer use woodworker router to cnc machine spindle worst idea all world.
@mattivirta yes, a spindle is better but not always an option if you blew your budget on the cnc. I have long since upgraded.
there's a painful high-pitched noise in the background that makes it impossible to listen to this video :(
That would be the cnc cutting at different intervals. Sometimes the bits scream when the feeds/speeds aren't right.
just put the rule to get speeds and feeds
The rule is to match feedrate to the chipload of the manufacturer, but small machines can't come close. The best they can do is tweak the feed & get as close as possible to the recommended chipload.
The tool stickout is way too much, and that is a lot of the reason it sounds that way. I know that in some cuts you need to have more stickout, but for most situations, you should be using the minimum that you can possibly get away with, which still allowing for chip clearance etc. This is especially true of flimsier machines because the length of the tool acts as a lever on the gantry of your machine. Imagine the tool was 3 feet long, and how the machine would respond. Then, if the tool only stuck out a half inch. Much more rigid setup with less of the tool hanging out of the spindle.
Quality tool manufacturers design with that in mind. Ive seen many people Chuck it up just above the top of the flute. This not good, as this makes the bit more susceptible to snap at that point due to heat and vibration.
Amana for instance, has a mark on their bits for a reason. This is the point of the video... dialing in bits for specific machines because all CNCs are NOT created equal.
@@ChristcrossCrafts I should have clarified “way too much for your machine”. I didn’t mean to imply that the bit can’t handle that much stickout, but with that much stickout, your machine is oscillating.
Quality tool manufacturers design for a rigid machine. The specs you get are based on a machine that is strong enough to push to those specs. Yours is clearly not one of those machines, so those specs don’t apply to you. Likewise, you may well have that bit chucked up properly, according to how the manufacturer suggests, but that bit is simply too long for your machine. Every machine has a limit to how much the tool can be stuck out before the lever action of the tool acting against the machine itself causes enough force to get things vibrating.
Try running a 6” long end mill with a 4” depth of cut on that machine. You’ll see what I mean. No matter how you chuck it up, no matter what the manufacturer states, that machine will not be able to drive it without DRASTICALLY reducing speeds and feeds way outside the range of what is considered usable. You can lower the feed rate as low as you want, but at some point, you’ll hit the lower limit of how much you can reduce the speed of the spindle. Using a router, as you are, you have even less ability to lower the speed. That means that as you lower your machine’s feed rate, the spindle is still spinning at full speed and your chip load will be all wrong, to the point where you’ll eventually just be rubbing more than cutting.
@@michaelkeymont501 You are correct and I agree. The point was trying to use the manufacturer's recommended chip load specs (which shouldn't change much) to dial in feeds and speeds. This was intended as a starting point to show that every machine is different and it is crucial to spend time learning what those limitations are when it comes to the topic.
I ran out of time to cover many other factors but did have plans on revisiting this topic to discuss chatter and other troubleshooting issues later.
I've used small 12x12 machines up to commercial ones and that is always the issue. The bit mfgs make the bits for industrial machines, not these hobby ones. People just take for granted the importance of dialing their bits in for their machine.
@@ChristcrossCrafts Lol, there’s not enough time in ANY single video to cover it all! One one of my machines, I ended up adding 20 solid concrete blocks to reduce - not eliminate, just reduce - the amount of vibration that I’d get on some cuts. It was game changing in aluminum, but I still can’t reduce the speed of the spindle enough to get realistic speeds and feeds for steel, though.
I agree about it being crucial to keep learning and pushing the limits. A lot of new guys getting into this stuff are looking for a recipe, and as you know, there is no such thing unless you’re talking about the same exact machine making the same exact cut in the same exact material. If a person isn’t ready to put in the learning time, this will be a tough hobby for them.
Thanks for putting in the time and effort to put out videos. I’ve thought of doing it, but I have the personality of a dead fish....
;)
@@michaelkeymont501 At first I was not interested in discussing a topic I am by no means an expert (self identified or by others), but I kept getting questions about it.
My favorite saying is, "In CNC there is no one size fits all scenario because all machines, bits, and materials are NOT created equal."
That's partly why I always tell people to try quality bits. At least you are starting on a good leg. They are much more forgiving than cheap ones.
I had to put sandbags on an old lathe I had once just to keep it from walking around my shop, so I fully understand! Sandbags worked better than other things I tried. It helped deaden and absorb the vibration so much better
This didn't help explain anything. Guess I just didn't understand. Thanks for the effort though.
Sorry about that. If I can help in any way, please let me know. These are just starting points to help show that every machine should be tested to obtain a general rule of thumb when running certain bits. The bits may be the same, but every machine is different.