Discord server: discord.gg/b5X6xACb4s To be honest, this video was rushed since I couldn’t bare spending more time in it. Imma just focus in RWS mysteries, as well as my own AU.
I don't think I can blame you...I mean, you were losing your shit about the "87546 is a B17" fiasco. That and this video and all the other previous debunking videos all allude to the same issue begin with...and that is how the fanbase's complete utter embarrassing failure to separate reality/canon and fan interpretations. Now I'm no psychology expert, I don't even study it, but I feel like part of the reason why could theoretically because fans WANT something to believe in to fill in the gaps with background non-entities or unexplained/unexpanded elements of certain characters or unknown origin stories and WANT those gaps to be filled and expanded upon, they want to believe in it so badly they ended up turning a blind eye to reality. And don't get me, this ain't a justification for...um...what is basically completely embarrassing stupidity, but from a psychological standpoint, this probably makes sense. But if anyone sees this comment that's an expert on psychology, feel free to share your own two cents on why and how fans straight up disconnect personal fan interpretations from reality and actual confirmed canon and may get defensive over those misconceptions or whatnot.
Well mostly i made my 87546 a king class but he would arrive in 1928 in a different time i know it looks uncanny but a thats just me then he would come back to sodor and then crash into the flying kipper while pulling a goods train and then be rebuilt at crewe or the steam works and turned into a c1 Atlantic and he like being at crewe but was glad to come home with 87546 is me aka my oc but my story is called thomas and the modern where he come back but then takes over the express and gordon then gordon makes him crash into a flood this was when he was a king class back then so this was my ideal 87546 or history of 87546
In my headcannon, 87546 was actually an experimental 4-6-0 tender engine built for the GNR in 1920 as a hybrid of the C1 Atlantics and the H3 moguls built by Beyer, Peacock, and Company of Manchester. When the H4 moguls and A1 Pacifics started rolling off of the assembly lines, his design was shelved until 1928 when Gresley would use him as a basis for his B17 4-6-0.
2:15 although I agree in principle that head cannons should try and keep in mind what year the basis was created, to play devils advocate for a second, even the official Thomas & Friends series can be inconsistent with the real life history of engine basis. I just look at the CGI series. We see a middle-aged queen Elizabeth and Prince Charles is still in elementary school, which would set the series sometime during the 50s… but then engines like Salty, who wouldn’t come into existence until about the 60s, have been on Sodor for several years. Also, they claim that hero is the oldest engine on Sodor despite the fact he should’ve been built in the 30s which would make him younger than Thomas. Again, I think AU are better when they try to keep real life history in mind. But when even the official series is inconsistent with that, I think some fan content is OK to change the dates a little bit. Provided that they don’t try pushing their headcanon as fact.
You know, I think the reason why people think 98462 is a B12/3 and 87546 is a B17 is because the people who came up with them thought by mistake that Edward’s day out took place somewhere in the late 1920’s, which chronologically would have made sense as Edward’s class, the FR K2’s were scrapped during that time.
@@joshuaW5621 Or we could also have a literal reimagining like The Adventure Begins where those completely nothing background entities are snapped out of existence and Thomas only arriving on Sodor after James arrived (in RWS canon, James only arrived during like 1924/1925 or something but then again we're talking about the TV series but had they gone with that as the timeline...it would really make you question why the Fat Controller willingly allowed him to keep his wooden brake blocks if practically everyone knew about it even at the start of TAB) and Henry is in a new shape...(Black 5 Stanniers were only first built in like 1935) although it's still possible that the latter was theoretically supposed to have been in his old shape but I digress. Yeah, so it's still highly possible for some fans would be willing to reinterpret the events of Three Railway Engines (+ Thomas the Tank Engine) taking place somewhere in the late 1920s or 1930s. Even if it might really make you question how the passage of time between events and character debuts would work if the series got reinterpreted that way.
@@megariderfire1994 the Adventure Begins isn’t really canon anyway, besides Thomas and James’s old liveries and the new characters, but I’m sure your theory on Henry might make some sense.
@@joshuaW5621 Dude, please. I literally called TAB "a literal reimagining" for a reason, emphasis on *REIMAGINING*. I should apologize if I should've word it better but I also never meant to imply that it was actually canon to RWS or the model series of the TV show. All I was doing is using TAB as an example for how some fans may interpret the timeline....like I can probably imagine how that film or even certain of the TV series (all of which is completely separate from the Railway Series, of course) could screw up how some fans may perceive the continuity and when things take place.
Guess I'm not the only one who dislikes the fact that people placed certain TTTE characters on years where the real basis doesn't exist... Also the B12s weren't worn out, they just weren't fit for the heavier trains that came in the 1920s, that why most of the B12s were relocated to the scottish part of the LNER
I personally think a GCR 9P (LNER B3) suits them very well for the roles the character usually plays in stories The 9P would also explain the ego and disdain for the A1 that often shows up in some stories The 9P's were Robinson's largest passenger locomotive (thus the ego). Despite this they were allocated to either sheds with little passenger traffic or were assigned to slow stopping service (under the GCR). What this would result in is a situation where 87546 has been given an express passenger service (maybe for the first time ever) and then an A1 shows up and back to secondary duties with 87546 The way they treat Edward is also understandable seeing as the 9P's have a similar tractive effort to a black 5, compared to the 1P classification of a K2
I can assume whoever first thought of 87546 being a B17 simply didn’t know when said basis was built and the same with 98462 on being a B12/3 with whoever thought of it first also didn’t know when said basis was built. Skarloey123 wasn’t the first to come up with them being a B17 and B12/3 and he even confirmed on Twitter a while back he didn’t plan on having Alfred the same as 98462, they were already also said classes in The Extended Railway Series where they appeared earlier in 2009 just before Sodor Dark Times came out according to 01Salty’s Deviantart pages of them where as far as I know that’s where 87546 was first depicted as a B17. However just a year before in 2008 in Rexeljet’s Thomas’ Early Years mini series he already had 98462 as a B12 so that idea was already around (87546 was a V2 but again I can also assume he didn’t know about either the B12 or V2’s build dates alinging with the blue jerk’s arrival’s) so the B12 idea was already around but I don’t know if Rexeljet was the one to come up with it first or someone else or if he even thought of 87546 being a V2 or someone else. Of course I was literally only 3 then 4 starting in June in 2008 so I couldn’t have known back then what was going on in the very early days of the TTTE fandom.
U know the funniest thing tho, so I used to thought 87546 was a B17 even tho a B17 had steam pipes even tho in the illustrations 87546 doesn't have steam pipes, well it's because Gordon is mostly seen with steam pipes, but in some illustrations, he doesn't have them like in Edwards Day Out or The Sad Story Of Henry or Edward And Gordon, so the same could've happen to 87546 Edit: if this is confusing I can explain more, also, steam pipes are the triangle things next to a engines smoke box, not only tender engines have them, Rosie has them too
Why are ppl so dumb? Back in 2013, I read up on 87546 and read he was theorized to be a B17, but it wasn't possible as it was built in 1928. So I moved on thinking the fandom did too. So to find out ppl are still basing him of the b17 is mind blowing. Also you are right to pick on headcanons that mess up reality but when it comes to naming them, that's fine bro. Let the ppl name 87546 "Crovan" if they want to jeez.
98462 and 87546 are like the younger community most loved things if you get what I mean. But yea a B-17 can't work for me I have him as one of thee Scottish locos Maybe a Highland Clan's locos. As a big flagship for the Highland railway it would make sense as his size made his bigger than Edward. Or failing that a HR river class/ Caledonian 938. Hence the 98 in his number : P
I'm with you on the 87546 not being a b17 idea 100%. Because yeah, 87546 being a prototype built like 7-8 years before his actual class was designed is just, no bro... Just no... My take on 87546 is respectful to the time line realistically. He's a GNR H2 class particularly no.1636 later LNER k1 no.4636 then later rebuild into a k2/1 class in and later renumbered to 1728 in 1946 and later 61728 under BR. I know that's a little specific, but I just wanted to clarify it. Mostly because, in my canon he was sent away and was a frequent visitor and was later saved from scrap by the NWR and works on the mainline and sometimes the Kirk Ronan line.
Frankly I picked the GNR O2 no. 461 for 87546 because the engine was built in 1918 and it is a closest design for 87546 in the illustration (PS not trying to take the illustration way too seriously).
Looking at the thumbnail, exactly. How can an engine be a design that wasn’t built yet. Going back to the Gordon is not an A0 video, Gordon could be the 1920’s draft of the A1. But the events of the early RWS (the three Railway engines and the Thomas book) happen in 1915 because that was probably the year that Thomas arrived. Update: Even if Gordon was an A0 he would likely not be built at the time Thomas arrived.
My 87546 is a k class whom arrived for passenger services (mainly the ones henry should pull) wich made him have a big head for performing better than a tenn wheller, this resulted in him being sent away
Do Thomas fans not even read Wikipedia or locomotive websites these days? The idea that 87546 is supposed to be an LNER B17 is bollux when you learn they were built 4 years after the book is set. That’s like saying Edward is based on a D49. Today me and my friends were discussing the possibility of that green engine in the shed being a different character since Edward's Day Out is canonically set while Henry was in the tunnel. Doesn’t that sound interesting?
I had that theory a while ago, but I never actually knew Edward’s day out takes place after Henry was bricked up in the tunnel, I’d later drop this theory but now you’ve reminded me, I’ll look back at it again
You can thank Max the GNR J13 for making that 2006-styled B17 model of 87546 for reviving the B17 depiction (he even realized his mistake and tried to make it up by creating an ‘06 model of his actual depiction of him, as a GNR Gresley H2). I’m not a fan of 87546 as a B17 as well, especially because I think the whole “prototype” claim I feel is just an excuse for people to make him a B17 in their AU’s.
@@ScorchZaneTrainswhat’s your opinion on my (redone) take on 87547 Name: Regaby (he, Crovan/87546 and Cecil/87545 are separate characters) Basis: LNER B3 Built: 1917 as a prototype Arrived: 1922 Sent Away: 1925 He does still have his manipulative personality in DemonOfNowhere but he gets like that after 98463/Reginald blew himself up While I have no problem with his name being Crovan, Cecil or Regaby (since he has a lot of other names from a lot of interpretations) Like you said, him being an LNER B17 doesn’t work because he arrives in 1922/23 but the B17s weren’t built until 1928, also him being an LNER B12 or a B4 doesn’t feel right
Thank you so god damn much for classifying that 87546 doesn’t have a name nor a confirmed basis. In my headcannon, 87546 is an LNER B4 and was originally named Robinson. But, that’s just my cannon
Funny you mention that, some people also have 98462 as a B16 a 4-6-0 designed for goods work and have him as an express engine. Idk why but people just think 98462 was made for the express (which makes sense for the LNER B12, since during their GER years and even the years on the LNER they were express engines). But hey, I’m ok with headcanons and AUs, tho it’s odd if it’s in actual RWS by Awdry.
Who's to say that 85476 is even of LNER/GNR origin.. ive seen a few ideas thrown about of them being either a D. Marsh J1/J2 (4-6-2) or a Billinton L class (4-6-4); both from the London Brighton
I remember back in 2022 I saw a remake of sodor dark times in the scene with Alfred and Cecil i said in the comments that maybe Cecil was ment to be 87546 in SDT but then someone replied to me saying nO 87546 iS mEnT tO bE a B17 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓 And i replied saying that 87546 couldn't be a B17 because they were built in 1928 and Edward's day out takes place in 1923 it was actually stupid and annoying
Originally, I've planned to potray 87546 into some engines of many different designs, either an LNER B17, an original LNER A1 (Gordon's basis), an LNER B4 (Alled Greedy's basis), an LNER B16 (98462's basis) or an LNER O2 (Dudley's basis). However, after further examining the illustrations, it was revealed that he has at least two leading wheels. So, that means he is an LNER K3.
I pretty much go by Ravenshire Works' depictions of 98462 and 87546. They are depicted as an NER S3 (later LNER B16) and a GNR H2/3 (later LNER K1/2) respectively. This would be some justification for their appearances in Edward's Day Out as both of the aformentioned locomotives were both built in 1920, three years before EDO.
In My Head Canon 87546/Croven Is Experimental Mix Between A GER S3 & GNR C1 Atlantic To Pull Strong Heavy Trains With A High Larger Fire Box. If That Counts ScorchZane 🤔🤔.
Two other problems with him being a B-17 relating to the class' existence: 1. They were built to succeed the B-12s because Gordon's class was too heavy for the lines they ran on (an A1 is 91.35 long tons vs a B-17's 80), and the A1s were new at the time. 2. If 98462 is a B-12, then things would be a bit awkward between him and 87546.
Keeping things consistent with the real life timeline is something that I believe helps contribute to a good story. Sure you can have some differences from the characters real basis so long as you don’t change the crucial pieces of information. It’s like trying to force for example a 1950’s built BR Britannia into a story that took place in 1915. It just doesn’t make sense! 87546 can be up to peoples own imagination, and they can do their own takes. However what makes it reasonable or not is when that particular fan’s interpretation of Edward’s day out takes place. If it sticks to the canonical lore, B17 87546 cannot work. No experimental built prototype excuses make the cut. I’d personally stick to a design of GCR decent, such as the B4. Such a design makes sense and can in theory work. In that regard you could make the claim that 87546 would be rebuilt from a B4 into a B17 in 1928. Only after leaving the NWR. Emphasis on AFTER
I think 87546 is just a simplified version of some class because, main characters such as Gordon and Edward look similar to there real life bases but are not exact to there real counterparts. Also remember that time when salty appeared (as a background character) in the adventure begins even though it takes place way before 1962 (when salty was built).
don’t even use CGI to justify RWS logic (they’re literally seperate universes, lkke I said if so 87546 as a B17 prototype would’ve been built between 1925-1926 then instead of 1921-1923)
Now that I think about it, that actually is a pretty good idea, maybe he was just never there in the first place (the true reason we never see him again)
@@joshuaW5621 Oh yeah, speaking of which...I forgot, was Gordon purchased AFTER Henry got shut up in the tunnel? That and...if Awdry confirmed The Sad Story of Henry taking place in...what? 1922, while the other three stories of Three Railway Engines was in 1923? That technically would mean the stories aren't completely in order, that should mean The Sad Story of Henry should be the FIRST story in the book....like WHAT THE HELL?! Did no one question this?! *What the story order ORIGINALLY was:* Edward's Day Out -> Edward and Gordon -> The Sad Story of Henry -> Edward, Gordon and Henry *What SHOULD'VE been the story order, as established in LATER CANON:* The Sad Story of Henry -> Edward's Day Out -> Edward and Gordon -> Edward, Gordon, and Henry (And I don't think the story order isn't even the book's fault, it's the LATER CANON that give you this headscratcher. This does remind me how Unlucky Tug pointed out how the original Star Wars trilogy had issues regarding it's continuity because of what got established the later canon or basically the confirmed canon (the later prequels, etc) that was produced afterwards) Three Railway Engines is quite the solid albeit very rocky confusing start to the overall franchise if I'm gonna be honest...especially considering the production history and how it needed to be illustrated many times. But then again, the first ever book is bound to have it's flaws.
@@megariderfire1994 well not every book has its stories in canonical order. Some of Christopher’s books had some stories set in different years, ex. Fire Engine happening before Crossed Lines.
@@joshuaW5621 Wait, that was actually CANONICALLY CONFIRMED that Fire Engine took place before Crossed Lines? Can you show me the link to that? On the other hand, I see your point but it does make the story order confusing.
someone mentioned that by taking out the 7 in 87546, you end up with the number of a B12 so i headcanon them as one and before anyone says something, no they are not Alfred, he's a D16
The B17 was designed in like, the 40's and by Edward Thompson, either 87546 is a timetraveler or Thompson was like, the chief mechanical engineer of some railway in the Red Engine AU. Personally, i don't really care about the backround engines. Reginald was a nutcase and didn't know what he was drawing. I feel like relugious people feel obligated to answer with sense making conclusions which is probably the reason 87546 has a number in the first place
Actually according to what I’ve researched it’s says the B17s were built between 1928 to 1937. I think it was the Thompson B1s that were the ones built during 40s
4:15 And that is why I went for 4:20 in my version of No. 87546. Also, my headcanon "official" reason he was sent away was more to performance as in real life, the "Imminghams" were not the best steamers alongside the C4 Atlantics (The D11 class 4-4-0s, typically smaller locomotives, can outperform both of them) so when Sir Topham Hatt I wanted a Robinson Atlantic and got Henry, he basically dodged a bullet.
my head cannon for 87546 is a "GWR 4000 Class" they were design in 1906 and interduced in 1907 which is bassically just my head cannon bassically makes him a prototype engine that worked and sent to sodor for trial before send away to their old Railway or something. thats my head cannon
The biggest reason why people think 87546 is a B17 is probably because of their lack of knowledge when it comes to British Railways, The reason why BadManoredProduction's takes are so surprising to everyone is because of their lack of reasearch. I don't even know all that much about railways, yet I still search up stuff to make sure my headcannon is historically accurate.
As an older member of the TTTE Community, THANK YOU. So glad to see a relatively newer user clarifying these misconceptions up about 98462 & 87546. The difference between Skarloey123, Wild Nor Wester, Thomas1Edward2Henry3, and other users back then, it was quite clearly their fan interpretation of the characters. Heck, I don't believe 87646 was dubbed as LNER B17 until 2016 or so, well after the fact when the Trainz model was made. In which itself was just a RWS model of old shape Henry in his blue livery which was made/released around 2012 or so. So the justification came much later in 2016-2017 of him being a B17, when that Trainz model of Henry, was suddenly the definitive version 87546 due to the popularity of T1E2H3's NWR Origins series.
@@aJunctionMalfunction thanks to those apologists I’m growing more apathetic to Alfred Crovan or any characterization or interpretation that’s been over hyped
He's probably (more than likely) a 4-4-2, based on the length of his boiler in the one illustration he was in (it's visibly shorter than Gordon's.) He's more than likely a freelance design. In RWS lore, it could be any British tender engine built between 1910 and 1923, around Gordon's size at most, same applies to 98462.
In my au 87545/crovan is a prototype b16 made in 1918 he has a bogie wheel in the back (like Gordon in the tvs) and he got sent away in 1925 (along with Alfred) 87546 also had trouble moving backwards due to this bogie in 1956 when diesel prototypes were being built he had a terrible accident with a lner express train his bogie was one of a kind and was so damaged they had to cut it off this giving him a normal b16 look he was sent back to sodor in 1956 (around s5 in my head cannon) a change engine from the crash Alfred was also sent back most engines thought 87546 now crovan was still a bully and Alfred did not help with his bully self still there in 1959 he saved some passengers lives when a bad fire was made at knapfor due to careless workers who ofc got fired that made the engines to forgive him
Another controversial thing is the road vehicles. Look at the remastered third and fourth illustrations in Edward and Gordon, the first and third illustrations in Thomas and the Breakdown Train, the fourth illustration in James and the Express, and, most noteworthy, the third illustration in Trouble in the Shed. They all feature road vehicles made AFTER the 1920s. 1930s, ‘40s, and ‘50s style cars and trucks also appear in the TV series adaptations of the first three books plus books 5 and 6.
@@everythingproductions2004 ok fair enough, tho I do have another question are each of them from one of the 120 rail companies or are they owned by a unknown company.
@@jgfm8330 That makes so much more sense. That or said engine was in the MIDDLE of being scrapped...but was saved just in the nick of time, causing the the scrapping process to be halted and sparing the engine's life although said engine (since they're sentient in the Thomas world) would probably have long lasting PTSD from their near death ordeal.
Well...I don't blame you for having a conniption over the utterly embarrassing contradiction that was 87546 as an LNER B17 (I like DemonOfNowhere's series personally...I definitely think Regaby is more or less better as an actual character than his real life basis) and your frustration with people who are doing fan interpretations of a franchise that was realistic as possible butchering the reallife historical aspects and this could also be controversial. Yeah, DemonOfNowhere probably should've gone with a different basis for their take of 87546...and it admittedly does make his dynamic with B12 Alfred!98462 more strange, since like you said the B17s were built to REPLACE the B12s. Like what? But it's the fact that Regaby was basis that should not existed at the time that was more important to address. You know what this reminds me of? The CGI era overall: - Like how the Miller/Nitrogen Era was batshit enough to make Hiro the first engine on Sodor and called him the famous Master of the Railway, when the JNR D51s were an absurdly mass produced common workhorse clone army that were only first built in 1936....and also aren't even the right gauge for standard gauge rails, and that doesn't stop there. - How Journey Beyond Sodor's Hurricane technically should not have existed at the time when Decapod got scrapped in what? 1919? On the topic of Decapod, let's say the engine is still alive in the TV series timeline, but that engine was rebuilt into an 0-8-0 tender engine and Hurricane isn't even accurate when Decapod should've been in it's new shape...does that mean Hurricane was taken in by the Steelworks before the year he was supposed to have been rebuilt in real life? But even then... - How The Great Race, as overly ambitious as the movie was, should've realistically impossible with some of the international engine classes that they picked...also aren't fit for standard gauge rails. (Ashima is Metre Gauge, Rajiv is Broad Gauge, Raul technically shouldn't have been broad gauge, etc) Wow, they really decided to reconvert these engines to the right gauge for just one event. This probably wouldn't have been a problem...but this carries on. - How starting from the BWBA movie, pretty much every other international railway is depicted as standard gauge definitely is not true...and Nia seems to be depicted as standard gauge from the get go. What the heck? - Speaking of BWBA movie onwards, it also reminds me how they added railways on locations that historically NEVER had railways in real life (There was no railway in the Amazon Rainforest) and they lazily reused Sodor sets for the other international railways when they may not fit the country they're in. - Other changing regional history in the BWBA Era, they also changed human history iirc in Thomas & The Royal Engine special Honorable (Although "Dishonorable" is probably more appropriate) Mentions to other Eras: - The controversial case of Stepney in the Classic Series, that they literally depicted this real life engine as a Sodor resident due to the producers trying to severe Sodor's connection to real life...and this is partly why Magic Railroad happened and changed how people view the franchise. That and let's not get started on the whole fiasco of the Bluebell Railway being sued for their real life engine that's over a hundred years old at the fucking time. - (The list probably goes on and maybe there's more examples I missed.)
@@joshuaW5621 I don't actually mind Salty and Whiff being based off real preserved engines, however I can somewhat understand some issue with that since it's not like an alternate reality where the real life engine that was scrapped is actually preserved like Toby, BoCo, etc. (Their real life basises are the real life engines that were scrapped...although since that also counts as altering history, I suppose that comes off as a bit hypocritical of me in some cases so oops.) Oh, but the American engines on the other hand are huge sticking point due to how large their basises tend to be...(ironic how Philip, what CrovanWorks prefers to call 'em "Shitbox", is supposed to be a little engine) even if Rosie's class did replace the E2s (Thomas's class and they too are enormous like the SR USA class) at one point in the past.
I agree with you because how would 87546 be in 1923 but 817 would be in 1928 but people have there own way of the two engines so it there right to do it but I still agree but in my au 87546 would come in 1928 so I would still have real life parts but thomas parts
@@chavopatyfanstudios2005seems to be the case, which is why I consider most of it (specifically the BWBA and even some of the Sheeran Miller era) as non canon (and maybe even some parts of the classics series like how season 6’s stories played out).
I want my 87546 to be a relative to Thomas so she would be LBSCR L class and her name would be Remembrance and chainging the number to 333 after the real engine
True...and then in TAB's case, Salty probably WASN'T supposed to be in the film. Because I highly doubt that the producers would go "Ah yes, it makes PERFECT SENSE for this dockside diesel engine side character to appear in the origin story involving our OG five main legends" so yeah, I'd take Salty's appearance in that CGI reinterpretation with an incredibly heavy grain of salt and ignore it. Of course, TAB still has other issues regarding it's continuity but still.
@@chavopatyfanstudios2005 That's supposed to be canon? It doesn't exist in the Railway Series, are you talking about how that engine appeared in the background in the TV series? Tbh, I don't think that marklin engine is even meant to be canon in the first place. Even if it was, it bears no relevance to the show, it's definitely not supposed to appear in the forefront, and in the words of good ol' ScorchZane...it's just a nameless jobber. I don't really see any reason why Salty even appeared in the background of TAB other than it being a severely embarrassing error the production team overlooked.
If you zoom in close towards 87546’s cab you can see his smoke box slants because the lining there is wider than the lining closest to his smoke box. We can also conclude that he’s either a 2-6-0 or a 2-6-2 because if you zoom in on his second wheel you can see white which indicates that’s where his connecting rods or wtv they’re called are Edit: Looking back at it he also doesn’t seem to have wheel arches. Also you can’t seem to even see a glimpse of his tender which could mean his tender is short in height. His front half is also rather short. He looks to only have three stripes
My version of 87546 is a king class and dont say he arrived in 1923 he would arrive in 1928 and he would be rebuilt in 2024 dont ask me why train lived a long time in the other series and 87546 would be rebuilt at crewe and was turned from a king class to a c1 Atlantic. And his name is Kirk Ronan. Kirk Ronan liked being at crewe but was glad to come home. This is my ideal 87546 so scorchZane dont change my story of 87546 Edwards day out would happen in 1930, edward and gordon 1930, sad story of henry 1930,edward gordon and henry 1930 so please let me have this.
In My AU 87546 Is An Gnr Atlantic Named Alice. Her & 98462 (Who Is Called Regaby) Are Lackeys To Alled (The 1st Red Engine). 87546 Never Wanted To Be Rude To Anyone Because Regaby And Alled Forced Her To. Eventually Alice Was Purchased By The NWR And Was Painted Purple With White Lining.
@@Kyle123Cartoons_Age_Is_13_Fr while inaccurate at least it was in the time frame 87546 was around unlike the B17 which is even worst, I take changing build dates worst than candidates that don’t work (even if they fit the timeframe or were even built prior to the 1920s)
@@ScorchZaneTrains Also 87546 Can't Be A LNER B4 Because The B4s Have A Curved Like Running Board And 87546 Has A Sloped Like Running Board Like 98462 And Gordon
@@Kyle123Cartoons_Age_Is_13_Fr actually the B4s and the K2s could work (if we ignore the illustrations given I can somewhat agree they are inaccurate) because 1. The LNER K2s were built between 1912-1920 2. The B4s however were built in 1906, and actually running board looks to be a mix of both curved and sloped (if you take a somewhat closer look)
I think that after 87546 is sent away he was rebuilt from a B4 into a B17 due to the lack of efficient ten wheelers in the LNER. Edit: since the LNER was formed along with the GCR (possibly 87546’s built place) why not rebuilt their old ten wheelers instead of scrapping them.
Yes, Dalby was an inconsistent writer. But it's worth mentioning that 87546 being a B17 is DemonOfNowhere's interpretation of the said non-entity background character from the books. As interesting DemonOfNowhere's series is in it's own right, it's not perfect in the sense there are several contradictions.
@@chavopatyfanstudios2005 he probably never knew what the B17s were, even if he did, he probably wouldn’t care. But like Mega said, it was DemonOfNoWhere’s take, not a thing form Dalby.
@@sondraedwards4606 doesn’t matter he can’t exist if he’s one (especially if Edward’s day out took place in 1923, while the B17 would’ve likely been thought of by 1926 and would’ve been built later in 1928)
Oh wait there is i think 87546 is a A0 class engine because my headcannons is that Henry haves a brother that its 87546 Henry as have a small firebox while 87546 have a bigger one
To me, 87546 as a tender engine would make more sense to be any pre- grouping larger tender engine. Does a tank engine something like an LBSCR L class could work
@@NexusWorks924 for anyone it could, but for me personally I don’t think so, I might explore that when I make a video focusing on who 98462 and 87546 are and what I think they could be.
Discord server: discord.gg/b5X6xACb4s
To be honest, this video was rushed since I couldn’t bare spending more time in it. Imma just focus in RWS mysteries, as well as my own AU.
I don't think I can blame you...I mean, you were losing your shit about the "87546 is a B17" fiasco. That and this video and all the other previous debunking videos all allude to the same issue begin with...and that is how the fanbase's complete utter embarrassing failure to separate reality/canon and fan interpretations.
Now I'm no psychology expert, I don't even study it, but I feel like part of the reason why could theoretically because fans WANT something to believe in to fill in the gaps with background non-entities or unexplained/unexpanded elements of certain characters or unknown origin stories and WANT those gaps to be filled and expanded upon, they want to believe in it so badly they ended up turning a blind eye to reality. And don't get me, this ain't a justification for...um...what is basically completely embarrassing stupidity, but from a psychological standpoint, this probably makes sense.
But if anyone sees this comment that's an expert on psychology, feel free to share your own two cents on why and how fans straight up disconnect personal fan interpretations from reality and actual confirmed canon and may get defensive over those misconceptions or whatnot.
Well mostly i made my 87546 a king class but he would arrive in 1928 in a different time i know it looks uncanny but a thats just me then he would come back to sodor and then crash into the flying kipper while pulling a goods train and then be rebuilt at crewe or the steam works and turned into a c1 Atlantic and he like being at crewe but was glad to come home with 87546 is me aka my oc but my story is called thomas and the modern where he come back but then takes over the express and gordon then gordon makes him crash into a flood this was when he was a king class back then so this was my ideal 87546 or history of 87546
In my au he’s a experimental b1
@@niwagurung6340 NICE
@@niwagurung6340 a Robinson B1 or a Thompson B1?
In my headcannon, 87546 was actually an experimental 4-6-0 tender engine built for the GNR in 1920 as a hybrid of the C1 Atlantics and the H3 moguls built by Beyer, Peacock, and Company of Manchester. When the H4 moguls and A1 Pacifics started rolling off of the assembly lines, his design was shelved until 1928 when Gresley would use him as a basis for his B17 4-6-0.
Ok I like this one
My headcanon of 87546
Is a b16 which went to gnr and rebuilt with slope running board,
As the group started in 1923 98462 and 87546 went to the NWR
2:15 although I agree in principle that head cannons should try and keep in mind what year the basis was created, to play devils advocate for a second, even the official Thomas & Friends series can be inconsistent with the real life history of engine basis.
I just look at the CGI series. We see a middle-aged queen Elizabeth and Prince Charles is still in elementary school, which would set the series sometime during the 50s… but then engines like Salty, who wouldn’t come into existence until about the 60s, have been on Sodor for several years.
Also, they claim that hero is the oldest engine on Sodor despite the fact he should’ve been built in the 30s which would make him younger than Thomas.
Again, I think AU are better when they try to keep real life history in mind. But when even the official series is inconsistent with that, I think some fan content is OK to change the dates a little bit. Provided that they don’t try pushing their headcanon as fact.
You know, I think the reason why people think 98462 is a B12/3 and 87546 is a B17 is because the people who came up with them thought by mistake that Edward’s day out took place somewhere in the late 1920’s, which chronologically would have made sense as Edward’s class, the FR K2’s were scrapped during that time.
They probably assumed it was set in the 1930s or 40s.
@@joshuaW5621 Or we could also have a literal reimagining like The Adventure Begins where those completely nothing background entities are snapped out of existence and Thomas only arriving on Sodor after James arrived (in RWS canon, James only arrived during like 1924/1925 or something but then again we're talking about the TV series but had they gone with that as the timeline...it would really make you question why the Fat Controller willingly allowed him to keep his wooden brake blocks if practically everyone knew about it even at the start of TAB) and Henry is in a new shape...(Black 5 Stanniers were only first built in like 1935) although it's still possible that the latter was theoretically supposed to have been in his old shape but I digress.
Yeah, so it's still highly possible for some fans would be willing to reinterpret the events of Three Railway Engines (+ Thomas the Tank Engine) taking place somewhere in the late 1920s or 1930s. Even if it might really make you question how the passage of time between events and character debuts would work if the series got reinterpreted that way.
@@megariderfire1994 the Adventure Begins isn’t really canon anyway, besides Thomas and James’s old liveries and the new characters, but I’m sure your theory on Henry might make some sense.
@@joshuaW5621 Dude, please. I literally called TAB "a literal reimagining" for a reason, emphasis on *REIMAGINING*. I should apologize if I should've word it better but I also never meant to imply that it was actually canon to RWS or the model series of the TV show.
All I was doing is using TAB as an example for how some fans may interpret the timeline....like I can probably imagine how that film or even certain of the TV series (all of which is completely separate from the Railway Series, of course) could screw up how some fans may perceive the continuity and when things take place.
@@megariderfire1994 my mistake. I’m sorry if you felt I shat on your headcanon.
Guess I'm not the only one who dislikes the fact that people placed certain TTTE characters on years where the real basis doesn't exist...
Also the B12s weren't worn out, they just weren't fit for the heavier trains that came in the 1920s, that why most of the B12s were relocated to the scottish part of the LNER
This would be like Diesel 10 visiting and crashing Lady in 1955.
Man the sentance of headcannons retconning real life hits so hard
I personally think a GCR 9P (LNER B3) suits them very well for the roles the character usually plays in stories
The 9P would also explain the ego and disdain for the A1 that often shows up in some stories
The 9P's were Robinson's largest passenger locomotive (thus the ego). Despite this they were allocated to either sheds with little passenger traffic or were assigned to slow stopping service (under the GCR).
What this would result in is a situation where 87546 has been given an express passenger service (maybe for the first time ever) and then an A1 shows up and back to secondary duties with 87546
The way they treat Edward is also understandable seeing as the 9P's have a similar tractive effort to a black 5, compared to the 1P classification of a K2
I can assume whoever first thought of 87546 being a B17 simply didn’t know when said basis was built and the same with 98462 on being a B12/3 with whoever thought of it first also didn’t know when said basis was built. Skarloey123 wasn’t the first to come up with them being a B17 and B12/3 and he even confirmed on Twitter a while back he didn’t plan on having Alfred the same as 98462, they were already also said classes in The Extended Railway Series where they appeared earlier in 2009 just before Sodor Dark Times came out according to 01Salty’s Deviantart pages of them where as far as I know that’s where 87546 was first depicted as a B17. However just a year before in 2008 in Rexeljet’s Thomas’ Early Years mini series he already had 98462 as a B12 so that idea was already around (87546 was a V2 but again I can also assume he didn’t know about either the B12 or V2’s build dates alinging with the blue jerk’s arrival’s) so the B12 idea was already around but I don’t know if Rexeljet was the one to come up with it first or someone else or if he even thought of 87546 being a V2 or someone else. Of course I was literally only 3 then 4 starting in June in 2008 so I couldn’t have known back then what was going on in the very early days of the TTTE fandom.
U know the funniest thing tho, so I used to thought 87546 was a B17 even tho a B17 had steam pipes even tho in the illustrations 87546 doesn't have steam pipes, well it's because Gordon is mostly seen with steam pipes, but in some illustrations, he doesn't have them like in Edwards Day Out or The Sad Story Of Henry or Edward And Gordon, so the same could've happen to 87546
Edit: if this is confusing I can explain more, also, steam pipes are the triangle things next to a engines smoke box, not only tender engines have them, Rosie has them too
in railway term, its called the dry pipe
Why are ppl so dumb? Back in 2013, I read up on 87546 and read he was theorized to be a B17, but it wasn't possible as it was built in 1928. So I moved on thinking the fandom did too. So to find out ppl are still basing him of the b17 is mind blowing. Also you are right to pick on headcanons that mess up reality but when it comes to naming them, that's fine bro. Let the ppl name 87546 "Crovan" if they want to jeez.
98462 and 87546 are like the younger community most loved things if you get what I mean.
But yea a B-17 can't work for me I have him as one of thee Scottish locos Maybe a Highland Clan's locos.
As a big flagship for the Highland railway it would make sense as his size made his bigger than Edward.
Or failing that a HR river class/ Caledonian 938. Hence the 98 in his number : P
1:45 when the music cut off I knew he was about to go crazy
I'm with you on the 87546 not being a b17 idea 100%. Because yeah, 87546 being a prototype built like 7-8 years before his actual class was designed is just, no bro... Just no... My take on 87546 is respectful to the time line realistically. He's a GNR H2 class particularly no.1636 later LNER k1 no.4636 then later rebuild into a k2/1 class in and later renumbered to 1728 in 1946 and later 61728 under BR. I know that's a little specific, but I just wanted to clarify it. Mostly because, in my canon he was sent away and was a frequent visitor and was later saved from scrap by the NWR and works on the mainline and sometimes the Kirk Ronan line.
Some people actually decide that 98462 and 87546 are actually LNER B4's, and people make 87546 into Moguls
Frankly I picked the GNR O2 no. 461 for 87546 because the engine was built in 1918 and it is a closest design for 87546 in the illustration (PS not trying to take the illustration way too seriously).
I whole heartedly understand your rant, I have a slight issue with retconning real life events too.
Tbh I don’t think reckoning is the right term more like timeline illegal is a better term
Looking at the thumbnail, exactly. How can an engine be a design that wasn’t built yet. Going back to the Gordon is not an A0 video, Gordon could be the 1920’s draft of the A1. But the events of the early RWS (the three Railway engines and the Thomas book) happen in 1915 because that was probably the year that Thomas arrived. Update: Even if Gordon was an A0 he would likely not be built at the time Thomas arrived.
actually the Three railway engines and Thomas the tank engine take place between 1922-1925
@@TheSudrianTerrier653Yes and if I recall Gordon was one of the newer engines at the time, which would mean he only came to the railway just recently
My 87546 is a k class whom arrived for passenger services (mainly the ones henry should pull) wich made him have a big head for performing better than a tenn wheller, this resulted in him being sent away
This is why I have 87546 as an LNER B16 in my headcanon. My reason being the B16s were built between 1919-1924.
ngl that’s better than the B17s
@@ScorchZaneTrains I see.
He can't be a B17
But he could be a Raven A2
Do Thomas fans not even read Wikipedia or locomotive websites these days? The idea that 87546 is supposed to be an LNER B17 is bollux when you learn they were built 4 years after the book is set. That’s like saying Edward is based on a D49.
Today me and my friends were discussing the possibility of that green engine in the shed being a different character since Edward's Day Out is canonically set while Henry was in the tunnel. Doesn’t that sound interesting?
I had that theory a while ago, but I never actually knew Edward’s day out takes place after Henry was bricked up in the tunnel, I’d later drop this theory but now you’ve reminded me, I’ll look back at it again
You can thank Max the GNR J13 for making that 2006-styled B17 model of 87546 for reviving the B17 depiction (he even realized his mistake and tried to make it up by creating an ‘06 model of his actual depiction of him, as a GNR Gresley H2).
I’m not a fan of 87546 as a B17 as well, especially because I think the whole “prototype” claim I feel is just an excuse for people to make him a B17 in their AU’s.
Tbh them claiming he’s the prototype while contradicting real life is why I never respected those AUs.
@@ScorchZaneTrains0:32
What are your thoughts on The Loaned Engines having names other than numbers
makes them having numbers pointless
@@ScorchZaneTrains oh
@@ScorchZaneTrainswhat’s your opinion on my (redone) take on 87547
Name: Regaby (he, Crovan/87546 and Cecil/87545 are separate characters)
Basis: LNER B3
Built: 1917 as a prototype
Arrived: 1922
Sent Away: 1925
He does still have his manipulative personality in DemonOfNowhere but he gets like that after 98463/Reginald blew himself up
While I have no problem with his name being Crovan, Cecil or Regaby (since he has a lot of other names from a lot of interpretations)
Like you said, him being an LNER B17 doesn’t work because he arrives in 1922/23 but the B17s weren’t built until 1928, also him being an LNER B12 or a B4 doesn’t feel right
2:43 sent him to Characterville
Thank you so god damn much for classifying that 87546 doesn’t have a name nor a confirmed basis. In my headcannon, 87546 is an LNER B4 and was originally named Robinson. But, that’s just my cannon
And that’s fine, up to you it’s your headcanon.
@@ScorchZaneTrains Also the fact you kept saying F**k so much was laughable
Guess you can say I scorched this video
@@ScorchZaneTrains haha
He's more or less an NER B16. Those were built a lot earlier and it's logical that 87546 is a B16 because they were designed for freight service
Funny you mention that, some people also have 98462 as a B16 a 4-6-0 designed for goods work and have him as an express engine.
Idk why but people just think 98462 was made for the express (which makes sense for the LNER B12, since during their GER years and even the years on the LNER they were express engines). But hey, I’m ok with headcanons and AUs, tho it’s odd if it’s in actual RWS by Awdry.
@@ScorchZaneTrains the B16s were actually designed for mixed-traffic work.
oh thanks
Who's to say that 85476 is even of LNER/GNR origin.. ive seen a few ideas thrown about of them being either a D. Marsh J1/J2 (4-6-2) or a Billinton L class (4-6-4); both from the London Brighton
In my AU, 87546 is an LNER Gresley K2, the K2's look so mean and powerful, they look badazz
@@OfficialEdwardTheWiseEngine fair enough
I remember back in 2022 I saw a remake of sodor dark times in the scene with Alfred and Cecil i said in the comments that maybe Cecil was ment to be 87546 in SDT but then someone replied to me saying nO 87546 iS mEnT tO bE a B17 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓 And i replied saying that 87546 couldn't be a B17 because they were built in 1928 and Edward's day out takes place in 1923 it was actually stupid and annoying
That kid mustn’t have read Wikipedia I guess.
Originally, I've planned to potray 87546 into some engines of many different designs, either an LNER B17, an original LNER A1 (Gordon's basis), an LNER B4 (Alled Greedy's basis), an LNER B16 (98462's basis) or an LNER O2 (Dudley's basis). However, after further examining the illustrations, it was revealed that he has at least two leading wheels. So, that means he is an LNER K3.
I pretty much go by Ravenshire Works' depictions of 98462 and 87546. They are depicted as an NER S3 (later LNER B16) and a GNR H2/3 (later LNER K1/2) respectively. This would be some justification for their appearances in Edward's Day Out as both of the aformentioned locomotives were both built in 1920, three years before EDO.
In My Head Canon 87546/Croven Is Experimental Mix Between A GER S3 & GNR C1 Atlantic To Pull Strong Heavy Trains With A High Larger Fire Box.
If That Counts ScorchZane 🤔🤔.
honestly it works
Here’s my headcanon. 98462 is a Class 956 from the Caledonian Railway. And 87546 is a Class 191, also from the Caledonian.
Damn both of them sure are Scottish
Two other problems with him being a B-17 relating to the class' existence:
1. They were built to succeed the B-12s because Gordon's class was too heavy for the lines they ran on (an A1 is 91.35 long tons vs a B-17's 80), and the A1s were new at the time.
2. If 98462 is a B-12, then things would be a bit awkward between him and 87546.
Plus that would mean he and 98462 would hate each other
@@ScorchZaneTrains
That would be interesting to see.
@@pizzaplanettruck9761 ngl I agree
you know since we never see the full body of 87546 is it possible that he could be a tank engine?
@@karenfan010 honestly the idea is possible
I'll second that.
What about hiro as a prototype
Keeping things consistent with the real life timeline is something that I believe helps contribute to a good story. Sure you can have some differences from the characters real basis so long as you don’t change the crucial pieces of information. It’s like trying to force for example a 1950’s built BR Britannia into a story that took place in 1915. It just doesn’t make sense!
87546 can be up to peoples own imagination, and they can do their own takes. However what makes it reasonable or not is when that particular fan’s interpretation of Edward’s day out takes place. If it sticks to the canonical lore, B17 87546 cannot work. No experimental built prototype excuses make the cut. I’d personally stick to a design of GCR decent, such as the B4. Such a design makes sense and can in theory work. In that regard you could make the claim that 87546 would be rebuilt from a B4 into a B17 in 1928. Only after leaving the NWR. Emphasis on AFTER
I think 87546 is just a simplified version of some class because, main characters such as Gordon and Edward look similar to there real life bases but are not exact to there real counterparts.
Also remember that time when salty appeared (as a background character) in the adventure begins even though it takes place way before 1962 (when salty was built).
don’t even use CGI to justify RWS logic (they’re literally seperate universes, lkke I said if so 87546 as a B17 prototype would’ve been built between 1925-1926 then instead of 1921-1923)
Theory: 87546 was never real. A figment of imagination
Top 10 most shocking theories:
Or is he...
BUM BUM BUUUUUM!
THE END! QUESTION MARK!
Now that I think about it, that actually is a pretty good idea, maybe he was just never there in the first place (the true reason we never see him again)
All the loaned engines were made up.
The same could be said for 98462 and the 2 red engines
The nameless jobber quartet is complete
Unless you count the green engine in Edward’s Day Out which people say is Henry (even though the story was set while Henry was still in the tunnel).
@@joshuaW5621 Oh yeah, speaking of which...I forgot, was Gordon purchased AFTER Henry got shut up in the tunnel?
That and...if Awdry confirmed The Sad Story of Henry taking place in...what? 1922, while the other three stories of Three Railway Engines was in 1923? That technically would mean the stories aren't completely in order, that should mean The Sad Story of Henry should be the FIRST story in the book....like WHAT THE HELL?! Did no one question this?!
*What the story order ORIGINALLY was:*
Edward's Day Out -> Edward and Gordon -> The Sad Story of Henry -> Edward, Gordon and Henry
*What SHOULD'VE been the story order, as established in LATER CANON:*
The Sad Story of Henry -> Edward's Day Out -> Edward and Gordon -> Edward, Gordon, and Henry
(And I don't think the story order isn't even the book's fault, it's the LATER CANON that give you this headscratcher. This does remind me how Unlucky Tug pointed out how the original Star Wars trilogy had issues regarding it's continuity because of what got established the later canon or basically the confirmed canon (the later prequels, etc) that was produced afterwards)
Three Railway Engines is quite the solid albeit very rocky confusing start to the overall franchise if I'm gonna be honest...especially considering the production history and how it needed to be illustrated many times. But then again, the first ever book is bound to have it's flaws.
@@megariderfire1994 well not every book has its stories in canonical order. Some of Christopher’s books had some stories set in different years, ex. Fire Engine happening before Crossed Lines.
@@joshuaW5621 Wait, that was actually CANONICALLY CONFIRMED that Fire Engine took place before Crossed Lines? Can you show me the link to that?
On the other hand, I see your point but it does make the story order confusing.
@@megariderfire1994 I think the wiki said it one time, but it’s been removed. I’m not 100% sure if this is confirmed but it’s possible they might be.
He is a blue tender engine
doesn’t mean he’s B17
@@ScorchZaneTrains He's a blue tender engine. Nothing more. Nothing less
@@metrofox1424honestly based word man
someone mentioned that by taking out the 7 in 87546, you end up with the number of a B12 so i headcanon them as one
and before anyone says something, no they are not Alfred, he's a D16
Me who changed my head cannon so 87546 can be a B17.
Because I'm a man that just wants to watch the world burn
In my main headcanon 98462 & 87546 are the recent trainz models because they look cool
87546 can't be a B17 4-6-0
But he can be an O2 2-8-0
or a B4 4-6-0 or even one of Gresley’s Moguls. the possibilities are endless
@ScorchZane Yeah
But I see him as an O2, a 2-8-0
Dudley is also an O2.
@@joshuaW5621 Yes I know
Like I said: I see him as a O1 2-8-0
The B17 was designed in like, the 40's and by Edward Thompson, either 87546 is a timetraveler or Thompson was like, the chief mechanical engineer of some railway in the Red Engine AU. Personally, i don't really care about the backround engines. Reginald was a nutcase and didn't know what he was drawing. I feel like relugious people feel obligated to answer with sense making conclusions which is probably the reason 87546 has a number in the first place
Actually according to what I’ve researched it’s says the B17s were built between 1928 to 1937. I think it was the Thompson B1s that were the ones built during 40s
Ohh, right holdon, Thompson standardized the LNER.. or NER, yeah sorry, but still, WAY later than the NWR's beginnings.
@@DuckyLTD69 NWR beginnings? Is that a fan series or something?
@@ScorchZaneTrains No No i mean like when the NWR opened, Gosh NWR beginnings is a uh, obsurd name.
@@DuckyLTD69 oh right sorry got that confused
1:56 unless if the first book takes place in 1928 by a headcanon
I might consider 87546's b17 to be his new shape
Actually 2 engines did have their basis named in the TVS: BoCo and Merlin.
4:15 And that is why I went for 4:20 in my version of No. 87546. Also, my headcanon "official" reason he was sent away was more to performance as in real life, the "Imminghams" were not the best steamers alongside the C4 Atlantics (The D11 class 4-4-0s, typically smaller locomotives, can outperform both of them) so when Sir Topham Hatt I wanted a Robinson Atlantic and got Henry, he basically dodged a bullet.
my head cannon for 87546 is a "GWR 4000 Class" they were design in 1906 and interduced in 1907 which is bassically just my head cannon bassically makes him a prototype engine that worked and sent to sodor for trial before send away to their old Railway or something. thats my head cannon
to me,i think this engine is too old but just my head cannon
My Donald and Douglas are 4-2-2 Caledonian engines and replicas of the class built in 1919
I have 87546 or Crovan as an gnr/lner o1 (specifically one built in 1919) in my headcannon.
The biggest reason why people think 87546 is a B17 is probably because of their lack of knowledge when it comes to British Railways, The reason why BadManoredProduction's takes are so surprising to everyone is because of their lack of reasearch. I don't even know all that much about railways, yet I still search up stuff to make sure my headcannon is historically accurate.
I also thought 87546 was a 4-4-2 or something.
According Awdry 87546 has no confirmed basis, so it’s pretty much up to you on how you view him.
Judging by his wheels, 87546 looks like he has 2 small front wheels and the other wheels behind the two small wheels look bigger.
Have people him being potrayed as a b16 expect where they don't recton real life
I mean yeah some people even those who don't even do YT have him as a B16 since it was built between 1919-1924.
As an older member of the TTTE Community, THANK YOU.
So glad to see a relatively newer user clarifying these misconceptions up about 98462 & 87546.
The difference between Skarloey123, Wild Nor Wester, Thomas1Edward2Henry3, and other users back then, it was quite clearly their fan interpretation of the characters. Heck, I don't believe 87646 was dubbed as LNER B17 until 2016 or so, well after the fact when the Trainz model was made. In which itself was just a RWS model of old shape Henry in his blue livery which was made/released around 2012 or so. So the justification came much later in 2016-2017 of him being a B17, when that Trainz model of Henry, was suddenly the definitive version 87546 due to the popularity of T1E2H3's NWR Origins series.
honestly it’s very sad how fans became very blind and dictator-ish with both 98462 and 87546 as Alfred and Crovan
@@ScorchZaneTrains I couldn't agree more with how crazily this whole 98462/Alfred/87546/Crovan situation has become over the past decade.
@@aJunctionMalfunction thanks to those apologists I’m growing more apathetic to Alfred Crovan or any characterization or interpretation that’s been over hyped
Kids after see this video:He'S tHe PrOtOtYpE
people who know that he's not a prototype B17 and care about history: Wrong
He's probably (more than likely) a 4-4-2, based on the length of his boiler in the one illustration he was in (it's visibly shorter than Gordon's.) He's more than likely a freelance design.
In RWS lore, it could be any British tender engine built between 1910 and 1923, around Gordon's size at most, same applies to 98462.
True and I agree with you
im totally not proud that my 87546 is a prototype of gwr castle
I am planing to make 87546 be a V2 class which pulls trains from London to vicarstown
Up to you
@@ScorchZaneTrains yeah but now I know I need a small boiler c1 because it fits in the timeline
V2? As in LNER V2 which only started being produced in 1936 or something? But still, up to you.
@@megariderfire1994 well now I think I will choose a small boiler C1
@@jgfm8330 Fair enough.
In my au 87545/crovan is a prototype b16 made in 1918 he has a bogie wheel in the back (like Gordon in the tvs) and he got sent away in 1925 (along with Alfred) 87546 also had trouble moving backwards due to this bogie in 1956 when diesel prototypes were being built he had a terrible accident with a lner express train his bogie was one of a kind and was so damaged they had to cut it off this giving him a normal b16 look he was sent back to sodor in 1956 (around s5 in my head cannon) a change engine from the crash Alfred was also sent back most engines thought 87546 now crovan was still a bully and Alfred did not help with his bully self still there in 1959 he saved some passengers lives when a bad fire was made at knapfor due to careless workers who ofc got fired that made the engines to forgive him
Another controversial thing is the road vehicles. Look at the remastered third and fourth illustrations in Edward and Gordon, the first and third illustrations in Thomas and the Breakdown Train, the fourth illustration in James and the Express, and, most noteworthy, the third illustration in Trouble in the Shed. They all feature road vehicles made AFTER the 1920s. 1930s, ‘40s, and ‘50s style cars and trucks also appear in the TV series adaptations of the first three books plus books 5 and 6.
I can say that I choose for 87546 to be a Raven A2 Class built in 1922.
In my headcanon, 98462, the big red engine, 87546, and the big green engine in Edward’s Day Out are all the same class, which is a freelance design
right why freelance, like don’t get me wrong it suits them but tho?
@@ScorchZaneTrainsBecause to me, they don’t look like any engine that exists in real life
@@everythingproductions2004 ok fair enough, tho I do have another question are each of them from one of the 120 rail companies or are they owned by a unknown company.
@@ScorchZaneTrainsI'm going to say the Great Eastern Railway due to the most engines being blue
what about the red engines and that green engine?
Theory : I think that 87546 might have been scraped but then saved
That makes no sense… how can something be scrapped and then saved
@@LMS5935 it was nearly scrapped
@@jgfm8330 That makes so much more sense.
That or said engine was in the MIDDLE of being scrapped...but was saved just in the nick of time, causing the the scrapping process to be halted and sparing the engine's life although said engine (since they're sentient in the Thomas world) would probably have long lasting PTSD from their near death ordeal.
Well...I don't blame you for having a conniption over the utterly embarrassing contradiction that was 87546 as an LNER B17 (I like DemonOfNowhere's series personally...I definitely think Regaby is more or less better as an actual character than his real life basis) and your frustration with people who are doing fan interpretations of a franchise that was realistic as possible butchering the reallife historical aspects and this could also be controversial.
Yeah, DemonOfNowhere probably should've gone with a different basis for their take of 87546...and it admittedly does make his dynamic with B12 Alfred!98462 more strange, since like you said the B17s were built to REPLACE the B12s. Like what? But it's the fact that Regaby was basis that should not existed at the time that was more important to address.
You know what this reminds me of?
The CGI era overall:
- Like how the Miller/Nitrogen Era was batshit enough to make Hiro the first engine on Sodor and called him the famous Master of the Railway, when the JNR D51s were an absurdly mass produced common workhorse clone army that were only first built in 1936....and also aren't even the right gauge for standard gauge rails, and that doesn't stop there.
- How Journey Beyond Sodor's Hurricane technically should not have existed at the time when Decapod got scrapped in what? 1919? On the topic of Decapod, let's say the engine is still alive in the TV series timeline, but that engine was rebuilt into an 0-8-0 tender engine and Hurricane isn't even accurate when Decapod should've been in it's new shape...does that mean Hurricane was taken in by the Steelworks before the year he was supposed to have been rebuilt in real life? But even then...
- How The Great Race, as overly ambitious as the movie was, should've realistically impossible with some of the international engine classes that they picked...also aren't fit for standard gauge rails. (Ashima is Metre Gauge, Rajiv is Broad Gauge, Raul technically shouldn't have been broad gauge, etc) Wow, they really decided to reconvert these engines to the right gauge for just one event. This probably wouldn't have been a problem...but this carries on.
- How starting from the BWBA movie, pretty much every other international railway is depicted as standard gauge definitely is not true...and Nia seems to be depicted as standard gauge from the get go. What the heck?
- Speaking of BWBA movie onwards, it also reminds me how they added railways on locations that historically NEVER had railways in real life (There was no railway in the Amazon Rainforest) and they lazily reused Sodor sets for the other international railways when they may not fit the country they're in.
- Other changing regional history in the BWBA Era, they also changed human history iirc in Thomas & The Royal Engine special
Honorable (Although "Dishonorable" is probably more appropriate) Mentions to other Eras:
- The controversial case of Stepney in the Classic Series, that they literally depicted this real life engine as a Sodor resident due to the producers trying to severe Sodor's connection to real life...and this is partly why Magic Railroad happened and changed how people view the franchise. That and let's not get started on the whole fiasco of the Bluebell Railway being sued for their real life engine that's over a hundred years old at the fucking time.
- (The list probably goes on and maybe there's more examples I missed.)
Let’s also not forget Salty and Whiff having numbers of real preserved members of their class and the few American engines living on Sodor.
@@joshuaW5621 I don't actually mind Salty and Whiff being based off real preserved engines, however I can somewhat understand some issue with that since it's not like an alternate reality where the real life engine that was scrapped is actually preserved like Toby, BoCo, etc. (Their real life basises are the real life engines that were scrapped...although since that also counts as altering history, I suppose that comes off as a bit hypocritical of me in some cases so oops.)
Oh, but the American engines on the other hand are huge sticking point due to how large their basises tend to be...(ironic how Philip, what CrovanWorks prefers to call 'em "Shitbox", is supposed to be a little engine) even if Rosie's class did replace the E2s (Thomas's class and they too are enormous like the SR USA class) at one point in the past.
I agree with you because how would 87546 be in 1923 but 817 would be in 1928 but people have there own way of the two engines so it there right to do it but I still agree but in my au 87546 would come in 1928 so I would still have real life parts but thomas parts
But do you don't have an issue with him being a b17 if the first book take place in 1929 or the 30s
If was a B17 but arrived on Sodor during the 1930s then that would’ve made more sense, then just straight up reckoning real life.
@@ScorchZaneTrains tbh my universe dosen't recton real life
@@ScorchZaneTrains also the tvs does happen complety different than in real life
@@chavopatyfanstudios2005seems to be the case, which is why I consider most of it (specifically the BWBA and even some of the Sheeran Miller era) as non canon (and maybe even some parts of the classics series like how season 6’s stories played out).
@@ScorchZaneTrains which some cgi episodes are canon to your universe
I want my 87546 to be a relative to Thomas so she would be LBSCR L class and her name would be Remembrance and chainging the number to 333 after the real engine
Only express trains
What’s a jabber?
someone who jobs, and that what 87546 was brought on for before he was sent away
Cool but...
We have salty, carly, hiro waaaay before their bases was built.
Another reason why I don’t consider the CGI series canon, in the RWS characters are there by the time their basis’ existed
True...and then in TAB's case, Salty probably WASN'T supposed to be in the film. Because I highly doubt that the producers would go "Ah yes, it makes PERFECT SENSE for this dockside diesel engine side character to appear in the origin story involving our OG five main legends" so yeah, I'd take Salty's appearance in that CGI reinterpretation with an incredibly heavy grain of salt and ignore it. Of course, TAB still has other issues regarding it's continuity but still.
@@megariderfire1994salty is meant to represent marklin
@@chavopatyfanstudios2005 That's supposed to be canon? It doesn't exist in the Railway Series, are you talking about how that engine appeared in the background in the TV series?
Tbh, I don't think that marklin engine is even meant to be canon in the first place. Even if it was, it bears no relevance to the show, it's definitely not supposed to appear in the forefront, and in the words of good ol' ScorchZane...it's just a nameless jobber.
I don't really see any reason why Salty even appeared in the background of TAB other than it being a severely embarrassing error the production team overlooked.
@@megariderfire1994 i was refering the tvs canon
If you zoom in close towards 87546’s cab you can see his smoke box slants because the lining there is wider than the lining closest to his smoke box. We can also conclude that he’s either a 2-6-0 or a 2-6-2 because if you zoom in on his second wheel you can see white which indicates that’s where his connecting rods or wtv they’re called are
Edit: Looking back at it he also doesn’t seem to have wheel arches. Also you can’t seem to even see a glimpse of his tender which could mean his tender is short in height. His front half is also rather short. He looks to only have three stripes
In my au,87546 is a LNER B3.
I think he used to be an Modified Atlantic and crashed near the B17s and broke his body so he turned into a B17.
My version of 87546 is a king class and dont say he arrived in 1923 he would arrive in 1928 and he would be rebuilt in 2024 dont ask me why train lived a long time in the other series and 87546 would be rebuilt at crewe and was turned from a king class to a c1 Atlantic. And his name is Kirk Ronan. Kirk Ronan liked being at crewe but was glad to come home. This is my ideal 87546 so scorchZane dont change my story of 87546 Edwards day out would happen in 1930, edward and gordon 1930, sad story of henry 1930,edward gordon and henry 1930 so please let me have this.
In My AU 87546 Is An Gnr Atlantic Named Alice. Her & 98462 (Who Is Called Regaby) Are Lackeys To Alled (The 1st Red Engine). 87546 Never Wanted To Be Rude To Anyone Because Regaby And Alled Forced Her To. Eventually Alice Was Purchased By The NWR And Was Painted Purple With White Lining.
Did duck wore a different numberplate when he was at padditon
very GWR loco likely did
My version of 87546 is an LBSCR H2 named Marsha. She was killed in 1925.
How she was killed
Whats Even Worse Is That Some People Said That 87546 Is A LNER K2💀
@Kyle123Cartoons_Age_Is_12_Fr nah the B17 is worst because it was built in 1928, while 87546 was there by 1923
@@ScorchZaneTrains Then What About 87546 And The Lner K2's Running Board?
@@Kyle123Cartoons_Age_Is_13_Fr while inaccurate at least it was in the time frame 87546 was around unlike the B17 which is even worst, I take changing build dates worst than candidates that don’t work (even if they fit the timeframe or were even built prior to the 1920s)
@@ScorchZaneTrains Also 87546 Can't Be A LNER B4 Because The B4s Have A Curved Like Running Board And 87546 Has A Sloped Like Running Board Like 98462 And Gordon
@@Kyle123Cartoons_Age_Is_13_Fr actually the B4s and the K2s could work (if we ignore the illustrations given I can somewhat agree they are inaccurate) because
1. The LNER K2s were built between 1912-1920
2. The B4s however were built in 1906, and actually running board looks to be a mix of both curved and sloped (if you take a somewhat closer look)
3:03 apart from boco and merlin
The only thing we lots know of is the 87546 a mogul wheel engine that he is a total ass towards other like his homies 98462 and the Red lard.
Should i put shining time station canon to my universe
up to you (feedback, just go with whatever you like, dont relay too much on people to decided for you).
@@ScorchZaneTrainsyeah i would put it
𝐆𝐑𝐈𝐋𝐋 𝐌𝐄 𝐀 CHEESE😭😭😭😭😩😩😩😩
Why do people don't put hyper realisim when he arrive in the 30s or 40s
Tbh even if Edward was the main protagonist of the franchise things Will likley get worse like him becoming a meme
Dont you remember that is boco and bill and ben's debut episode they mention boco's baisis
I didnt mention them since the TVS threw that out into the trash.
@@ScorchZaneTrains about what
locomotive basis' and the idenity behind them
Should i put tatmr canon to my universe since my universe dosent recton real life
I mean if your gonna have the RWS/Thomas in a real life setting then it’s up to you, in Awdry’s mainstream every vehicle has a face and are alive.
@@ScorchZaneTrainsalso in my universe the magic railroad dosen't bring sodor to life with faces
I think that after 87546 is sent away he was rebuilt from a B4 into a B17 due to the lack of efficient ten wheelers in the LNER.
Edit: since the LNER was formed along with the GCR (possibly 87546’s built place) why not rebuilt their old ten wheelers instead of scrapping them.
Do you consider the model canon
some of events I do consider canon like all at sea for example
@@ScorchZaneTrains for me most of all of them but not the original versions only my versions of it in cgi brenner style
Did dalby Thought that the b17s where built in 1923
Yes, Dalby was an inconsistent writer. But it's worth mentioning that 87546 being a B17 is DemonOfNowhere's interpretation of the said non-entity background character from the books. As interesting DemonOfNowhere's series is in it's own right, it's not perfect in the sense there are several contradictions.
@@megariderfire1994 i dalby thought they where built in 1923
I don’t think he would even know of the B17s, since from what is told about him, he was never interested in locomotives
@@ScorchZaneTrains was he unawered that they where built in 1928
@@chavopatyfanstudios2005 he probably never knew what the B17s were, even if he did, he probably wouldn’t care. But like Mega said, it was DemonOfNoWhere’s take, not a thing form Dalby.
Why awdry never rectonned the story to be set in the 1930s
I like to think that 87546 is the same class as henry mk1
If he is am LNER B17 he would have been a cousin to Gordon since he was designed by Sir Nigel Gresley
@@sondraedwards4606 doesn’t matter he can’t exist if he’s one (especially if Edward’s day out took place in 1923, while the B17 would’ve likely been thought of by 1926 and would’ve been built later in 1928)
Oh wait there is i think 87546 is a A0 class engine because my headcannons is that Henry haves a brother that its 87546 Henry as have a small firebox while 87546 have a bigger one
1915 draft?
@@ScorchZaneTrains yes
Does victor recons real life
Sadly yes, I agree with some that he is a bad historian to some extent. But then again the stories are really good
@@ScorchZaneTrains expect a few of s5
oh yeah, I will definitely make a video about season 5 and what could've been done better.
To me, 87546 as a tender engine would make more sense to be any pre- grouping larger tender engine. Does a tank engine something like an LBSCR L class could work
@@NexusWorks924 for anyone it could, but for me personally I don’t think so, I might explore that when I make a video focusing on who 98462 and 87546 are and what I think they could be.
What engine could have been used to meant to represent marklin in the tab other than salty in the tab as salty wouldn't work
why not a recolour of Thomas but in grey and black (and red of course)
@@ScorchZaneTrains yeah that could work
Is the b16s work for mixed trafic
if you search it up you'll find an answer there
@@ScorchZaneTrains it does
heree is some feedback, dont relay too much on creators for locomotive basis' or railways, since there are articles and books bout them