Japanese ZH-29 Copy by Tokyo Gas & Electric
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ส.ค. 2016
- / forgottenweapons
The Japanese military experimented with self-loading rifle designs through the 1930s, and had 4 major rifles in testing during that period. One was a new design by Kijiro Nambu, one was a Pedersen copy made by the Tokyo Army Arsenal, one was a gas operated toggle locking rifle by the Nippon Special Steel company, and the fourth was this, a ZH-29 copy made by Tokyo Gas & Electric. TG&E was a major industrial concern that made all manner of products, and they chose to copy the ZH-29 for Army rifle trials. However, it appears that while their manufacturing quality was quite good, they lacked the firearms design expertise on staff to fix the problems the rifle was found to have.
Specifically, their ZH-29 suffered from substantially inferior accuracy. It seems that no significant changes were made between the first and second major trials (1932 and 1935), and when the accuracy problems appeared unchanged in 1935, they were dropped from competition. Only a handful of these rifles were ever made, between 10 and 25.
There are a number of differences between the TG&E rifle and the original Czech ZH-29. The most significant of these is a separate non-reciprocating bolt handle on the TG&E rifle, where the Czechs fixed the handle directly to the bolt carrier body. The Japanese rifle was chambered in 6.5x50SR, of course, and used a new magazine not compatible with the Czech type. The trigger group was also redesigned somewhat, although not in a fundamental way.
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Ian, or anyone else wondering, the character next to the safety is 安 which most often means 'cheap' but can also mean 'relax' or 'peaceful', so yes, it is safe.
It looks like in the context of firearms, it does mean "safe" or "safety"
stop analysing like this, It sounds really weird if you understand
just because you think something sounds "Weird" doesn't mean others can't discuss it. shame on you for telling anyone to stop a decent analytical topic.
@@jonathanosako4235 Uh, no... No it does not.
安全 is safety/security drop the extra character for simplicity
The Asymmetry of this gun is INSANE
It's so asymetric, it's triggering my ADHD that i don't have
I used to need everything to be symmetrical, but it looks cool
Asymmetry is cool
@@nickaschenbecker9882 I thought wabi zabi was old broken pots repaired with gold?
Or atleast designed to look like that from the start
The Japanese marking on the Safety "安" means "Safe". The regulator markings "空大“ means "empty large" or "unmarked large", and “8 小” means "8 Small".
まさか現存しているとは！
投稿されてからもう7年になりますが
日本人としてどこかで大切にされていることを願います。
I love seeing the Japanese guns. They seem rather rare compared to most of the other countries.
And thus spoke Gun Jesus:
Strong enough to be durable,
Accurate enough to be useful,
Cheap enough to be affordable,
Light enough to be practical.
and czech invented to be legendary :-)
The Czechs do build awesome guns. I really need a vz. 24.
the rifle of the smg ?
@@foreststalkerbrothers im guessing the rifle since they are more common. I have one and really it’s a cool rifle. Very smooth.
I know the copy rifle is the main feature of the video, but man oh man is that plum finish on the ZH29 beautiful!
i really appreciate these videos because you get straight to the point every single time without any b.s
then when you get started its just pure fire and awesome information. love your channel my dude.
I am a Japanese.I like Japanese old guns. But I don't know this gun. I have to study about these gun. .....
Hi "a Japanese.I like Japanese old guns. But I don't know this gun. I have to study about these gun. .....", I'm dad
@@DisappointedScrosh Wow! :-D
that could've been an awesome service rifle if the accuracy problems would've been fixed, i think it would be convenient to have your Infantry equipped with improved zh29 Rifles and zb26 lmg's using all the same Magazines
I thought it was going to be a gas and electric powered rifle
yeah... i also kinda felt disappointed :D
It is gas powered.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Japanese gun on this channel this is pretty amazing.
Thanks for this post of a beautiful piece of craftsmanship. Guess it's a good thing they didn't get all the bugs out.
this is the best channel ever, I wish I could take part in your work
the "安" means safety
the regulator "空" means empty or none it this gun should be none operation
the other "火"means fire but it also looks like"大" it means big
and the bottom "小" means small for the adjustable gas regulator
Beautiful machining on these thanks for sharing...
very interesting disassembly. thanks Ian!
Ian once again you amaze and intertain and pull another jewel out of your hat
"One of" the COOL THINGS about a frontal stroke is you get to watch Older "Forgotten Weapons" Again Like NEW as they are "Forgotten"?
Thanks Again, Again!
I like the quality of machine work. this really is a nice prototype. I know that accuracy is achieved by concentric lock up but failure of others is how education works.
Once again Ian!Outstanding job!!!History come alive when you talk....
This thing and obviously the original are actually very impressive and innovative for the time. Even the Japanese copy has some extra impressive features.
I love these early semiauto rifles (and pistols! and smgs!) with traditional wooden stocks. There's something so ruggedly functional yet classy about them; with that beautiful Machine Age aesthetic and usually top quality fit and finish because companies actually cared about that back then. Don't get me wrong, I love modern black polymer tactical stuff as much as the next man, and even some futuristic/sci-fi weapon design is interesting, but I really think the Machine Age (c1890 to c1960) was the pinnacle era of functional form in weapons as well as everything else.
I also collect watches, and I think the Machine Age also produced the best horological designs; particularly c1930 to c1960. Not just me either; vintage watches of this era are among the most valuable and still considered the ultimate, best looking classics with high quality movements. I mean take the Rolex Datejust for example: designed in 1945, still looks basically identical today, and will still be in style in 2945. Or look at any list of the greatest classic cars of all time, and you'll see almost all of them are from the Machine Age. Point is I guess, you take *anything* mechanical and chances are it was at it's absolute zenith of aesthetic and functional perfection during the same era as this style of rifle -- and it's no coincidence.
Milling the receiver out of one block of steel like the ZH-29 already looks extremely expensive. Then you also have to machine the parts for the semi automatic action. Then you look at the Japanese "copy" and wow. Why would you make it even more difficult to mill with all those cuts, even as a prototype?
Adopting the ZH-29, aside from the accuracy issues seems to be an extremely costly proposition because you have to make hundreds of thousands and for the big armies millions. This Japanese version looks terrible to actually produce. For any county, even the USA who could just throw machines, steel and money at the problem of production this rifle is just far to much to make. That probably also had a lot to do with the lack of adopting semi automatic rifles. Designing them is one thing. Actually being able to build them is a whole other problem.
Agree, but I don't think the pre-war japanese were adverse to putting a lot of machine work into their military guns. My dad's 1935-made Type 38 Arisaka (sent to him by my grandfather in 1945 from China when he was 10 years old) has a magazine follower that is clearly, intricately machined from a big block of steel instead of just pressing one out of sheet medal. The fit and finish of both steel and wood on the gun is really remarkable with an action as smooth as glass.
The Japanese were all about quality over quantity (though they also had other mentalities/priorities/expertise deficiencies that really fucked up the "quality" part at times--see their fleet carrier designs); while desperation eventually led to the worsening of quality in their firearm construction, initially their guns were built like beautiful works of art. Their lack of expertise in designing some types of more modern firearms (both in terms of efficiency/cost reduction in production and in terms of identifying and solving problems) really hurt them, and their limited industry and natural resources just compounded the problem.
japan air doctrine nothing bad the problem is quality of the pilot if japan got great pilot like we have in early day of the war the k/d not that high + the problem is the plane design lack off armored which later fix in the ki84/ki61/n1k.ki100
signs80 yup + the one that send back don't wan to be send back to train newbie in the bi plane and wan to go back to figh with they friend or squad
I love these videos thanks a million!
That rack & pinion sight is really something!
Very interesting piece of gun history and quiet Clever engineering for Japanese rifle
There’s some complex and beautiful machining on that rifle. It looks good. Could see possible windage zero-keeping issues with the gas housing being keyed into the hand guard. But the fit and finish is extraordinary.
This just makes me want a modern Japanese rifle on the open market even more I know a couple some crazy men over there would make an amazing piece never seen before but that just hopeful wishes.
Too bad guns are basically illegal there
@@tokirak they still have manufacturers they just don't sell them outside the country so what does that matter I'm super legal if they were willing for a civilian market.
Wow, zh 29 is a amazing design, shares a lot with modern rifles
With such an off-angled barrel, it's no surprise that this gun could not even shoot straight xD
the japanese character on the front of the gun 空（air/gas），大(big/large)，小(small).
空 also means empty or nothing. To a rifle gas regulator, it indicates either for shooting blank or manual bolt action. I guess. Check if gas port is blocked or not in that position.
It doesn't make sense to me that 空 would mean "empty" when it is next to 大. I think the text is supposed to mean "more gas" and "less"
+Kenneth Tessman uh Japanese looks complicated.
@@NatsuKashi00 Rather late to say this, but kowualsky
was actually correct. "空" in this case means "empty" or "nothingness" because it is the setting to cut off the gas system entirely. The 大(large) and 小(small) are basically referring to the two gas levels for the gas port.
I like that there are enough people watching this channel, that are willing to help explain details.
Very cool comparing them side by side
I have to say it is an extraordinary piece of machinery. I would think the original mauser style rear sights more practical though.
An actual example of this gun! Cool!
The bolt is interesting in the sense that it somewhat resembles a FN FAL bolt, mind you rotated 90 degrees and much later in development, but similar geometries and operation.
What a beautiful machine!
I saw this on the RIA website and was hoping you would review it :)
The characters at the gas plug are 空 which means air or gas, 大 means large, and 小 means small.
On the receiver 安 = Quiet or At Peace (1/2 of the word safe). On the gas Regulator 空 =Empty or Air (sky) 大 = Big, 小 =Small. Probably for the size of the gas port. That's my understanding from my study of the language at any rate.
I wonder if it might be possible to feed this thing from a Type-96 magazine. Those were developed by a different group at the Kokura Arsenal, but the magazine system was derived from that of the Bren guns which were compatible with the ZH-29, and they were also in 6.5 Arisaka so for box mags in that caliber they're pretty much the only game in town.
The characters on the gas tube plug mount mean "space/gas - Large" (right side) and "small" (left side) - probably refers to gas port sizes. It seems to be set on "small" so the buyer might want to watch their loadings..
Thanks for the great video Ian. I have a question that might sound dumb, but did the British have any semi-auto rifle designs of their own around this time? I never seem to find much on them. Continue your great work as usual!
They tested some but until FN FAL came into service, Lee Enfield was standard British rifle. There was no time or capacity to develop something different during WWII.
This is cool in the same way the Pedersen gun is: Take really awesome and somewhat brilliant design, and add some Japan. I love it.
_That rear sight is awesome_
dude i dont audibly say "whoooa" when seeing a rifle sight being adjusted but boy i sure did this time
It is just so... _I don't know_
It's very distinctive and clever
shit accuracy
The shit accuracy is not due to the sights
Could be part of it. There's a lot going on, might lose it's zero easily.
This rifle has the most beautiful fire control group I’ve ever seen
Hey Ian keep up the great work can you make a video about what came first the semi-auto or full auto rifle
Ian, do you have any plans to revisit the National Firearms Centre in Leeds in the near future? I know you did a few years back, but seems to have only made one video on it. I imagine there's at the very least a decade's worth of materials for this channel in that place.
I would like to, yes.
The M1 garand really was relatively simple compared to some of these other designs.
At least when it comes to field stripping. Not alot of small parts to loose. They also come apart easier, in big components
ZH-29 is a funky looking rifle, this is even funkier looking.
To be honest with you Ian, of all the weapons you've run into, the Japanese weapons are the coolest hands down!
One setting on the gas regulator has the 小 character, which roughly translates to "small" if I remember right. This may mean a smaller amount of gas being fed into the piston.
they really improved the original design! its like a FAL!
it does say safe in there... i do read japanese
It is the first letter of the words "safe" (安全) in Japanese, I don't why they put only one letter on it but we can assume that means safe
+Jarry Chen because the character itself means safe. the word safe its not only that character, but the character does have that meaning. for example 金 has the meaning of money, but the word money is お金 ... eat is 食べる, but 食 means "eat" so putting the character for safe is way easier thqn putting a redundant word when the first charachter already conveys the meaning. its like $ and Dollar.... you dont need to write three hunderd dollars.... only put $300 and the meaning is there.
+Federico Olivares Not trying to disagree with you, it is like we put S for safety in English. I just thought it is weird that they put 安 for safety. While I was in Japan, I did got my hands on and try a Japanese modern firearms. And for select fire switch, they simply put ア for safety, レ for full auto and タ for single shot. I am just surprised it is different from what they are using now.
Japanese kanji are not what you call letters. They are the same ideographs used in the Chinese written language, and the word "An - Zen" is made up of two characters which mean safe and full. So, you can write the word safe without using both characters because it can be implied that it means the gun is safe. It's like writing "safe" on a gun instead of writing "safety position".
It is explained by the fact that the Japanese have several different sets of writing systems. The one used on the rifle in this video (kanji) is the type that uses Chinese characters. Initially, the Japanese did not have their own written language, so they used chinese characters but not pronunciations to put ideas in writing. The one you became familiar with (either katakana or romaji) is a more modern version that allows words to be spelled out. That works best for incorporating western words and ideas, like T-shirt pronounced as T-shirt with a Japanese accent.
Every Japanese person must learn all three types of writing to be considered literate.
Really like the rear sight adjustmwnt for some reason. I'm thinking that the change in the magazine release control could have been to promote magazine retention?
thanks for the vid very nice
I like that trigger group.
I noticed a cut out on the cleaning rod I may be wrong but I believe the cleaning rod doubles as a rod or spike bayonet.
For a semi-auto that is one handsome rifle
Wow! way to go complicating things with that offset barrel. Good show.
Don't know if this has been addressed, but since there is no bayonet attachment visible, could the second switch on the cleaning rod channel correspond with the cut out near the front of the cleaning rod, allowing it to be reversed and used as a bayonet, possibly with a screw on spike? Rod bayonets were in vogue in the US with the M1888 version of the Trap Door and starting with the original M1903 Springfield, so maybe Japan felt that a rifle without a bayonet was naked. Cheers, Bruce.
Hum, I think that has a drop free magazine. By pressing down on the magazine release while the muzzle is slightly down, the magazine should hinge right out. Furthermore, since the front catch is spring loaded, you can press the next magazine straight into the magazine well.
I don't want to stir up any more flag-related controversy, but I feel I should ask this: shouldn't the flag in the thumbnail be the Imperial Japanese one (with the rays and all that) instead of the modern _Hinomaru?_
Also, I love those Japanese copies. Their alterations are so unique half the time.
Flag with rays in the military one, the non rayed one is the correct national flag.
Silly Catfish Ah, fair enough. I just looked it up myself. With how many rayed Japanese flags we see in WWII media, I imagine that's a common mistake.
the nazi german flag used was the war flag as well.. this is either hypocrisy or ignorance
That was the war flag, and therefore highly offensive to the Chinese and Koreans, who suffered immensely from the hands of the Japanese under that flag. It generates strong emotions in Asia.
Very strong. Like the Swastika in the West.
like the nazi party germany war flag he uses on two recent videos?
I find it odd that there's no markings for the rear sight adjustments, particularly the windage. It appears elevation might have a few grooves....
Really unusual rifle.
could that unknown locking mechanism on the stock by the gas block possibly be for an early bayonet?
you have character for safe and large and small for the gas tube regulator. The next to 8 is for small or you make the hole smaller turning in this direction
I've been wondering while watching the semi auto videos about the conclusion of all or at least most military powers trying to get their own good semi auto like you mention. Who do you think came up with the best solution? There is a obvious choice with the m1 garand but it would also be nice to hear about the ones that were almost just as good or better if you know of any.
he is right about the mark on the reciver it does say safe
Was the money better spent on the battleship Yamato? as compared to the Mark 2 Sten?
Why would the trigger being also the bolt release be considered unsafe? That sounds like it would be the most efficient form of bolt release. All it would be is the trigger is disconnected from the hammer when the bolt is in holding, then when the bolt is in battery release of the trigger would reset the trigger to the hammer.
I'm I missing something that would cause this to be an issue?
"Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire"
But a rifle is going to be issued to far more people then just troops in combat. So I'd still be nervous about pulling the trigger being an integral part of loading the gun.
+J. Murphy this rifle I can see that problem but with today's knowledge if machinery the trigger can be disconnected from the hammer sear when the bolt in hold open. The only thing the trigger is connected to is the release. Then the trigger has to be fully allowed to reset after releasing the bolt to once again connect to the hammer sear.
Beside, I don't know how one can manage to keep their fingers on the trigger when changing out the magazine. Only in Call of Battlefield is where your non- dominant hand is used to do a mag change.
Actually, there are assist devices like the Magpul B.A.D lever and the Phase 5 extended bolt release, both for for AR-15's which allow you all the advantages of being able to release the bolt with your trigger finger (speed mainly), without the inherent dangers of a system that uses the trigger as a bolt release.
+J. Murphy yeah, but those are add-ons. I'm talking about an integral function. I don't know. To me it makes sense. But what do I know, I only served for so long.
i can see why it had "accuracy issues". every thrust influence during cycling basically wants to spring that action to the right (barrel to the left), with that gas block adding an upward component as well (and torqueing the be-jesus out of the barrel at the end of the handguard). i bet that's why they closed the right side, and changed to the non recip op handle. the "new metal" all has i-beam like section as a design feature (rigidity to combat the main flex component, that "muzzle left" spring). toss in that barrel sleeve with uneven bearing surface at it's front end, the skinny barrel proportions, and a TINY crush shoulder interface between barrel and receiver, i'm actually kind of surprised it had any accuracy at all. in high speed vid, that barrel must watusi like a 60s mod kid on acid, lol
安全 this is Japanese for safe ''Anzen'' written in English letters and as you can see they have only used the first Character in Anzen on the gun, Which incidentally also means secure
If the barrel cants too the right shouldn’t the sight also be canted too the right that way when you fire the bullet intersects with the point of aim? If I’m not mistaken doesn’t the zh-29 have the sight canted too the right? I’ve tried visualizing this and if the sight is on the left with a barrel that cants too the right your just gonna have a fun that shoots too the right of sight instead of at point of aim.....idk 🤷🏽♂️ if any1 can help me understand this I would very much appreciate it 👌
This one was very interesting. Too bad it's missing the magazine.
Nothing screams safe, highly reliable/effective firearm more than the Tokyo Electric & Gas brand name !
(Of course, it still does seem better than if it was brought to you by TEPCO, the Tokyo Electric Power Company, that ran the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant…)
Charachters at gas block read (in order of appearance) "Sky", "big" & "small"
The peoblem of the angled barrel ( and angled threads in the receiver body ) could have been simply resolved by having the bolt face angled so that with the bolt in the locked position, the bolt face was parallell/ normal to breech axis...for a square lockup.
The other tilting block guns( vertical) all work on this principle...bolt locked,bolt face square to barrel face and axis.
Has anyone ever looked atthis solution,
Ian???
Doc AV
I was wondering the same thing!
Yes, that letter near safety did meant "safe". Also, on the adjustable gas block, the right side says "big" while the left side(the side with S/N 8 says "small".
What options do you have for the magazine? Make your own or modify an existing one?
Dont get me wrong I love Ian and his videos but if I can’t sleep and I want to go to bed as soon as possible I turn on one of his videos and it knocks me right the fuck out especially if it’s about a Japanese gun
Is it me or is the front sight offset to the wrong direction? The czech one seems to have them like you would expect, if the barrel is offset to the right, but this one seems weird.
Does anyone know why they didn't make the bolt face in the unlocked position at a weird angle? (And thus the bolt face straight while locked.) It seems like that would be simpler than making the barrel off at a goofy angle.
With the sights being offset to the left, Would that present a problem for left handed shooters?
Could the off-center main spring have had a negative impact on the accuracy of the rifle?
pretty much every design feature did. all thrusts during operation want to spring the right side of the action open, with the gas block also adding an awesome "diagonal up to the left" component to the muzzle (which lets both handguards work as springy bits influencing barrel harmonics).basically, the components all add up to a VERY erratic, violent vibration pattern in that barrel on firing (that pie wedge missing from the barrel sleeve, wtf???), which always means "horrific accuracy". it's why the model was a market failure, no matter who made it. the receiver is a leaf spring, lolololol. what's funniest is beefing up the LEFT side would have done them far more good.
安 is from the word 安全 means "safe" or "safety" in both Japanese and Chinese
Funnily enough, without the second kanji it translates into 'thoughtless, careless, rash'. Kind of fitting for a safety.
+insertnamehere001 thats why cant always trust google translate.
I'll give you guys fifty bucks for it.
I'll go up to fifty-five.
27,000 here!
With a spring loaded front mag catch, I bet you could just shove a loaded magazine straight in instead of having to "rock" the mag in.
My dad had one but it was cut in half because Australia
This is a really cool rifle. To all of those who suggest Kalashnikov copied the stg44, it looks to me like they were both heavily influenced by this guy.
17:28 could that be a stop for the cleaning rod?
13:05 Is that a giant huge crack in the receiver?
seperate parts.
Ian, great vid. Just a question. Why do the Japanese semi autos of the period appear to be copies of existing designs. I'd expect the Japanese with their engineering brilliance to develop domestic designs, is that a fair (but) basic summary
The imperial japanese army is known to be extremely conservative. It is highly likely that it was very difficult to sell them a completely new design.
Couldn't the sighting line be inline with the barrel if the sights were not offset?
The fact that the front post isn't directly bound to the barrel could also have a negative effect on accuracy, right?
I know this is an old post but did anyone else notice the big crack down the right hand side of the receiver? Look at 13:08
Why offset the barrel to accommodate the tilting bolt, then offset the sights to accommodate the offset barrel? Why not just mill the bolt face at a slight angle and leave everything else in line?
"安 (an)" doesn't mean "safe" by its own. It's taken from the first letter of the word "安全(an-zen = safe)". I think "空", "大", "小" and "8" are separate items. "8" is probably the serial number of this gun. "大(dai)" and "小(shou)" mean "large (amount of)" and "small (amount of)" in this context. I'm not quite sure what "空 (kara, ku, aki (= empty) or sora (= sky))" means here, but I suspect that it is a first letter of "空気圧 (kuki-atsu = air pressure or pneumatic pressure)".
Maybe if they could have ditched or modified that wonky side-locking action, and beefed up the op rod, they might have had a workable SLR, and it looks like it would not have been all that hard to make it select fire, if that is something they would have wanted down the road.