403,843 Votes: Where's the Line Between West & Eastern Europe? - TLDR News
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ธ.ค. 2021
- Eastern and Western Europe have some pretty well-defined identities, with the former often having theirs weaponized against them. However, the target isn't even particularly well defined. So in this video, we dive into the differences and uncover where is 'Eastern Europe?'
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The East vs West is just too restrictive to make sense. In Czechia, everybody will tell you we're "central Europe". I'm fairly confident the Greeks would identify as "south Europeans". The East vs West is a relict of the Cold War and doesn't work anymore.
Yeah something like that, but it was interesting to see the results for "middle Europe". Especially for someone from Czechia, cause Czechia in this is interesting case. I was also curious about Poland. And my first thought was i would maybe start drawing a line between Czech and Slovak althou it seperates us and it's questionable :) But that is what was this video about.
If you look at the big oriental influence in the culture of Greece (as in Bulgaria and, partly, Romania, then you realise it is (also) Eastern. Of course, the 40+ years on the "western" part of the iron curtain did have its impact.
@@balak1 the greek culture is greek not oriental
@@TheCyricson Greek culture varies by location, social class, family history and many other factors.
People forget that we Greeks have lived in multiethnic countries that spanned most of the eastern mediterranean ever since the peninsula was conquered by the romans. Roman empire then eastern Roman then Byzantine then Ottoman, add Alexander the greats conquests that established links all the way to india and the current European Union, we are bound to have influences by our neighborhood, a neighborhood that we defined.
Its not something that makes us less Greek, not at all, its a major benefit, after all we are a seafaring nation since antiquity, we have understood that "Μέγα το της Θαλάσσης κράτος" (Great is the power of the sea/Great states are those who control the sea) (Θουκυδίδης, ιστοριών Α, 143), and if you control the Mediterranean (Like we did, in many many eras) you will get influensed by it and you will be better off.
It's more so about political ideology than geographical location.
The religiosity divide seems much more north/south than east/west to me.
EDIT: I'm talking about degree of religiosity, not Catholic & Protestant vs Orthodox.
But if you consider the denomination is more east/west which makes more sense since more/less religious doesn't mean much if you don't consider what religion you are actually looking at.
Austria and France arent "south"
east/west is how the christian world is divided, the catholic/western-christian world is divided into north/south
@@Maynard0504 If by north you mean Scandinavia then yes
@@pierren___ Austria is sometimes called the Balkan's northernmost country. France can be considered southern because it is on the mediteranean, all the other romance speaking countries are to the south and French Guyana is considered an integral part of mainland France so if you'd take the average point it would end up way more southern than you'd expect.
Here in the United States, where I studied world geography in middle school, we were taught that Greece was part of Western Europe despite it's location. This was a holdover from Cold War geopolitics, as Greece was one of the only countries in the east that was not communist. Since Ancient Greece Was the birthplace of democracy and Western civilization, there is a tendency of western countries to want to associate it among themselves.
The East/West divide WAS Cold-War Geopolitics and still is....Otherwise no-one would argue that Czechia, Croatia and Slovenia are Eastern Europe as all are clearly in the Western half of the Continent.
The Ukraine and Belarus are actually across the mid-point of Europe NOT Czechia!
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People forget that despite most of Russia being in Asia the European part still covers a huge portion of the European Continent!
"Western civilization" is not "Western European culture".
Western civilization spans from Lisbon to Vladivostok
If the question is only east/west, its reallt a question of wasavapact.
It really makes no sense not calling finland north.
But even talking wasava pact there is a few surprices. Turkey is and for a long time been a nato member.
1/4 of germany was wasava pact. Finland and Sweden was neither.
Most surpricingly yougoslavia was neither despite being a communist country... well.. kind of communist with some fashist parts.
Also while most people know that itally was fashist untill 1945, most people don't know that greece, spain and Portugal was fashist untill 1974/75. Making this really quite a lot more complicated.
The history we read in school makes the student belive that fahsism was extermianted in Europe in 1945. This was far from true.
While it might be true that the last 3 countries was somewhat of "fashist light" and say yougoslavia was somewhat of "communist light"
Russia doesnt belong to West and will never be. Its different type of civilisation. @@gnas1897
But what about Turkey then? They joined NATO early, supported the US militarily and were far from being communist during the Cold War
Love how you include Turkey in Europe, but Russia is just disappeared from your map.
Because this was made by an ignorant and/or uneducated person :D
@@time2132 he's not crying about it. He is simply making a fucking statement.
@@McNoob69420he's crying.
@@skp8748 no?
@@time2132 it makes no sense lol. Only Istanbul is in Europe, not even whole city tho. When russia has much bigger territory in europe
Today "Eastern Europe" usually refers to the former Soviet block, so discussing the concept without even mentioning that seems kind of pointless.
Glad someone pointed this out
And especially considering the fact that those 40 years of Soviet era divided Europe into East and West one way but historically (before Soviets) the divide was somewhere else. That's especially true for Czechia and Slovakia...
Yeah, I was waiting for them to talk about the iron curtain but no, very incomplete analysis.
Yugoslavia was not part of the Soviet block. Are you saying its successor states should be considered Western Europe?
@@gsvick But it was more or less forced to ally with them. As a eastern European it was somewhat possible to travel to Yugoslavia, but almost impossible to cross its western borders, that's were you felt the iron curtain. Though you probably would not have been shot when trying to cross the green boarder.
Here in Czechia calling us 'Eastern Europe' is simply taken as an insult. We are and have always been Central European. The binary split of Europe to 'East' and 'West' is simply an imposition of defining factor of extremely short period of European history (1945-1989). To countries that see themselves as 'Central European' it just feels somebody still wants to put them back to an era defined by the communism and soviet dominance out of pure intellectual laziness
Amen my brother (or sister). I consider old Visegrad countries as Central European and my own country Finland as Nordic, and both culturally "western".
From intuition, I would have put the devide along the cold war lines. But Czechia is the country among them who "feels" most western. So central Europe certainly makes the most sense
Same for Poland
Same for Hungary.
It’s not an insult don’t get so butthurt
In my country (Poland) we say that we are Central Europe. In Czech Republic and Slovakia it would be same I guess because our mindset is other than in eastern europe. We want to live properly and develop. Hugs for our brothers from Czechia and Slovakia.
Non juste voues êtes pareil que l’Europe de l’Est, on parle en divisant le continent seulement en 2
@@qweakers209nie jesteśmy tacy sami ignorancie
@@Jarocool78 oui oui c’est juste l’histoire de dire ça parce que dire « Est » a une mauvaise image.
@@qweakers209 But an Austria - Osterreich (meaning exactly Eastern Empire) is west 😄
You definitely missed Russia, because the biggest chunk of Europe is there. However you included Turkey which has very small part in Europe.
So what is your guess, is Russia Western Europe or not?
@@miroslavdusin4325 Europe natural barrier is Ural. Most population of Russia lives to the west of it. So Russia is an eastern European country.
@@borisnikator7060 Geographically yes but otherwise no, Russia is a different entity than Europe. Which is also why the "tectonic zone" in Eastern Ukraine exists (without going into politics).
@@miroslavdusin4325 Besides geography, Russia is a cultural ancestor of Byzantine Empire so calling it not a Europe is a big stretch.
Russia is not a crusader state. And faces the same threat as Byzantine. Actually 4th crusade is what the west is trying to do over and over again, not thinking about consequences.
@@borisnikator7060 Russia claims and wants to be looked at as descendant of Byzantine empire but as always propaganda and reality are far away from each other in Russia. In my view Russia is a mix of influences perhaps also some Byzantine. Especially the young and internationally connected ones identify themselves with Europe and I have absolutely no problem with that, my Russian colleagues are great people, but the majority is rather passive and just now we can see live how strongly they support Hitler's reincarnation.
It would be interesting to see where people that voted originate from too. I can imagine a non-European person voting more based on geography instead of 'a feeling'.
Also, I always thought the East/West divide was based on former Soviet countries. This also lines up pretty well with your data and makes more sense to me. It explains why people think of Finland and Greece as borderline or West.
Of course greece is east when you consider austria (a more west country) east
I used the Iron Curtain as my indicator + Greece because of the Orthodox faith.
I'm Irish but I voted purely off of geography.
Turkey was not voted west though. I would say Orthodox/Islam background also has a role. And Greece is considered west by some because they think ancient Greece was the origin of Western civilization.
I think the location of the former Iron Curtain does play the biggest role, but culture and history can shift that quite significantly. Estonia and Czechia were both on the east of the Iron Curtain, but Estonia comes across to most people who know anything about it as a Scandinavian country that's just ended up on the wrong side of the Baltic Sea (which is also more or less how Estonia likes to portray itself), and whenever Estonia makes the news in other parts of Europe, it is almost invariably in a positive light, and to do with their tech-based economy, which are things people associate more with Western Europe. Czechia probably has its long historical connection to Austria, and the popularity of Prague as a very Western-looking tourist destination, to thank for being considered more Western than its West Slavic counterparts in Poland and Slovakia.
It is also interesting that Germany was considered by over 99% of people to be Western European, despite a significant chunk of it, including the immediate surroundings of the country's capital, having been east of the Iron Curtain. Of course modern Germany is dominated by former West German politics and business, but I would have nonetheless expected Germany to score lower than France, Britain or the Low Countries.
The Czech Republic has a lot of historical, cultural and mindset similarities with both Eastern and Western Europe, so we in the Czech Republic simply say that we are Central Europe.
I would have placed Czechia with the Western Europe. I have also visited it.
Poles say that we're Central too
As a Western European who has been to the Czech Republic more times than I can count and can speak the language, I would say this:
Prague is most definitely Central and the whole of Bohemia with the exception of some small villages feels 'central european'. Moravia-Silesian regions is where I would say with the exception of Brno, has a distinctly Easern European culture, especially the villages in which you can experience a really rich traditionally 'slavic' lifestyle. Geographically, it is definitely a Central State, and culturally, I think it has a slight Central bias, but there is a definite Eastern European population, which I do not see as a negative.
I would put Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary and Slovenia in 'Central Europe' due to historical German and Austrian influences.
Whenever I hear of central Europe I think of the Visegard group.
Poland,Czech,Hungary and Slovakia.
Wait, you put Turkey in Europe but kicked out Russia? Are you idiots? Turkey has one city (big city sure, but one) in Europe while Russia has its whole European culture, population, capital etc
Literally. Sure, let’s just ignore about 40% of the entire landmass of Europe, where more than 75% of the Russian population lives.
Europe ends in Ural mountains and I see you do not count with this fact.
The line you ended up drawing is quite close to the line that divided the Western and Eastern blocs during the Cold War, if you count democratic, non-aligned countries such as Sweden as 'Western' and non-Soviet-aligned Yugoslavia and Albania as 'Eastern', with the exception that
i) East Germany is part of Germany and in the West here, but was a separate country and aligned with the East during the Cold War.
ii) Greece and Turkey are in the East here, but were aligned with the West during the Cold War.
Not exactly. Finland didn't necessarily side with the Soviets, but their relationship was definitely closer than with the west. Turkey also sided with the west, joining NATO at the same time as Greece. Similar with Cyprus too.
Aside from Finland, Greece, Cyprus, Turkey and ex-Yu; yea
I would still count the former parts of east Germany into east Europe tho
Very cultural divided still
hint hint: don't submit to authoritarian corrupt regimes, they ruin your life.
That's probably how most people devideyhe East and West. 40 years of Cold War made quite a dent in our collective psyche
I'm surprised that there was no mention of the USSR and Yugoslavia - as far as perceptions of what's 'west' and what's east, I would have thought it played a pretty big role.
Edit: Warsaw pact/Iron Curtain, not USSR
yugoslavia had big role?
how so?
Absolutely, thought the same but I think he implied it somehow
@@saccount-z3 atleast in America we always treated Yugoslavia as any other communist country, just part of the eastern bloc. I know it’s more complicated with then being far more neutral but most Americans probably said every former communist country was eastern.
I'd guess most of the audience is too young to have experienced the Cold War first hand so it plays less of a role. Turkey today for example is primarily seen as bad at democracy, not as an ally against the Russians.
Spot on! It's a term from the history and a pretty big blunder excluding it from the video unfortunately
How was Turkey included in the map and not Russia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Kazakhstan? All of them straddle between Europe and Asia.
They are talking about Europe. Georgia and Kazakhstan aren’t Europe and nobody cares about Russia
Most of these are pretty clearly Asian countries, especially Kazakhstan. And Russia is mostly in Asia and would obviously be 99.9% Eastern Europe so there is no point in including it.
Although most people cannot see this, Turkey remained in Europe for a long time. Until 100-200 years ago, there was a high Turkish population in the Balkans scattered around and most of the land was controlled by the Turks. One say they were neighboors with Austria at some point in time and they helped a lot to creation of Balkan culture.
And it is still like that. Turkey still have lands and a large population in Europe.
My experience, from working with colleagues from many European countries is that most regard beibg described at Eastern Europe to be an insult. Eastern Europe is considered to be less developed, less modern, than the West. For that reason, Eastern Europe always starts at least one country to the East of the speaker's home country. So to a German, it may include Poland, but to a Pole it definitely doesn't start until at least Belarus.
It often is used to relegate someone into the category of "worse european", pretty often by people claiming to be inclusive and progressive. Quite interesting phenomenon tbh.
In culture, Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia, the Baltic states, Finland and even most parts of Ukraine are clearly Western Europe, while Turkey has nothing in common with Europe. Maybe the question catholic/protestant formed culture vs. orthodox culture is a better indicator for Eastern and Western Europe?
I love that Portugal is 98% like there's some people thinking "Nah bro, You can be even MORE western than the westernmost point"
Exactly. It makes me so mad as a portuguese
@@vasco35 Portugal cyka blyat
@@vasco35 probably some British people exercising their right not to have attended school
In a way, Portugal is very far east. If you travel east from Spain through Europe, Asia, the Pacific, North America and all the way through the Atlantic, you will arrive at Portugal.
Portugal by many metrics like GDP and religiosity is eastern European. There's a whole subreddit dedicated to Portugal's similarities to eastern European nations
I can understand why you went for an East-West split to keep the survey simple, but a lot of countries in Europe see themselves as Central European. Russia is also missing in my opinion. Most of it’s population lives in the European part and Moscow is the most populous city in Europe.
Exactly. The creators of this video treated the big grey area on the right hand side of the map as Asia, even though that big part is the real Eastern Europe. Also, not sure how European Turkey is really (as most of the county falls on Asia)
@@nitosalt3142Turkey is a special case in my opinion, having ties to so many areas the country borders to making it also not easier by having the biggest City, Istanbul, in Europe.
As in a geographical and political sense it is definitly "eastern europe" and Russia shouldve been included because the population is europe centered than rather asian, same like Turkey. Both countries are special in this topic, so there is no simple solution
@@Kereka Only 20% of Turkey's population lives in the European part of the country. That is, most of the Turks live in Asia. In Russia, 74% of the population lives in the European part of the country.
Actually, Istanbul is more populous than Moscow.
@@christophergeographyadmini1194 it's not
Interesting video.
Im surprised to see that only 98% voted Portugal has as western country, when is in fact geographically is the most western country of all Europe.
Btw, i have always considered Greece as a western country.
As a Canadian who grew up in the late stages of the Cold War (Reagan, Thatcher, Gorbachev era), I was taught Eastern Europe were Warsaw pact countries, while Western Europe was NATO countries with Ireland, Sweden and Switzerland thrown in (despite them being technically 3rd world nations). Turkey was not taught as a European country as its capital is in Asia.
What about ex yugoslavia? We were between. 😅
Do you mean 3rd world as in neutral, or 3rd world as in underdeveloped ? Because if it’s in the second sense, that’s not true at all. Those three countries are among the most developed and richest on the continent and already were at the time.
@singingcat02 Throughout the cold War, the third world was neutral countries. Most of whom were woefully undeveloped, except for a few like I mentioned in my comment.
@@singingcat02 Third world counrties means the non-aligned countries in the cold war. Much of those nations were on the underdeveloped parts of the world and thus the association with low development probably started, even though many third world nations have more development than some first and second world contries.
@@ruzicas.5819 you were definitely eastern europe, even though Tito successfully withstood pressure from Stalin and could give yugoslavia it's own path in history , it was still a communism path and not a western path.
It's curious to me, that Germany was voted in as almost unanimously "Western" by your audience, since Germany itself likes to highlight its situation as a bridge between East and West... Not too far-fetched, considering the whole split during the Cold War. But, sure, the country is also firmly aligned with the EU and NATO and its greatest foreign policy partners are France, the US and so on. So I can see why we're percieved as purely Western.
Also, within Germany itself, about 90% of the population lives in the former West Germany.
Well, the question didnt allow for "center". If the question is West or East, there really isnt any reason to consider Germany East.
@@scifino1 Well, that seems a bit much. It's closer to 75 % with roughly 16 million in East Germany.
@@jrosenthal7111 Yes, that seems more accurate, but still my point is, the large majority of Germans live in the old West.
Bridge sounds good, but is not meant to be. It's a door that stands on the west side of the border.
Just one quick not as one of the voters.
When I chose religion as a dividing line between east and west, I was referring to Orthodox vs Catholic faith, not how religious a country is.
I understood it the same
Actually Orthodox vs Catolic vs Protestant
@@Xeverous actually it would be catholic vs protestant vs Orthodox vs Muslim (since Bosnia Albania Kosovo and turkey are mostly Muslim)
@@koyba3747 Turkey is not part of Europe
@@syokanaa9356 western Thrace is a part of Europe, so thus a part of turkey is in Europe
You gotta divide Europe into Western, Northern, Central, Southern, Eastern and Southeastern. All of those are fairly solid groupings and tell you a lot more about the country.
If we use 16 points if the compass and add ‘inner’ and ‘outer’ we can almost put every country in its own group: Ireland is in Outer West North West Europe, for example, and Serbia is Inner South East. Problem solved!
@@CartoTypeThose are rather unruly group names though. How about we give those groups names that are easier to remember? i.e. instead of saying "Inner South East", we say "Serbia" and instead of "Outer West North West Europe", we refer to that group as "Ireland". Why has no one come up with that idea before?!?
And Southwestern. Spain and Portugal are southwestern Europe. Spain and Greece are quite different
It's funny how Russia is not in the list of European countries, while takes up about 40% of European continent..
I find it a bit weird how Russia isn't even included. Yea might be obviously eastern Europe, but countries like UK, France, spain, portugal ect. would also be obviously western and don't really need poll either. The European Russia might not be the largest area of the country, but despite of being much smaller than Asian Russia, they have about 3/4 of their population in Europe, arguably the most important area of the Russia, with capital and all in Europe.
Excluding Russia, but including Turkey was indeed weird on their part.
Considering their cultures and most populous areas, you would expect the opposite to be the case:
Russia being considered European, while Turkey being considered (Minor) Asian.
Which is exactly what I think skews the perception. People tend to think that Europe ends at the Russian border (which obviously makes a lot of European countries look more Eastern). But if you consider that giant chunk of Europe in Russia, people would realize that the East/West divide (strictly geographically speaking) would be shifted to the East.
AND I also find it odd that there was no mention of Central Europe...
@@Domihork Geographically speaking only eastern European country is Russia (Maybe also Caucasus and Kazakhstan if you consider it European), not even Turkey, and the center of Europe would be in Ukraine
@@user-be1jx7ty7n "Romance dominated" like the "western" countries of Romania and Moldova?;) Also you kinda exclude Greeks and Albanians...
@@TheZett Yeap. Russia is an European country that conquered Asian land, meanwhile Turkey is the opposite.
As a Finnish person I have thought about this. Geographically Finland is certainly in East Europe but when it comes to Finland's society and culture it's definetly more western so it's pretty hard to decide. It's easiest to say that Finland is nordic.
Yeah, same to estonia
But there are also parts of our society and culture that are much more Eastern European compared to for example the other Nordic countries. I personally call us a Nordic-Eastern European. Which makes many Finns very angry
Ive never considered Finland as eastern european. Interesting result.
Finland isn't nordic
@@idontspeaklondon9574 Finland is a Nordic country. But they are not traditionally considered to Scandinavian.
Central, Northern, Southern Europe: 💀
So according to you, turkey is European and Russia is not...
The further East you go, the narrower becomes the definition of "Eastern Europe". If you ask people in Lithuania or Poland, "Eastern Europe" is basically just Ukraine, Russia and Belarus.
Im Ukrainian and I can tell you that even my country we can split into two. Central European vs Eastern European using the old borders of Austria-Hungary. Culturally the two are different, despite sharing language and religion.
@@yuriydee but would you put Germany more with Poland/czechia/slovakia/Hungery of with France/Belgium/Netherlands/England ?
@@tayloryoung9803 No I would put Germany more with Western Europe. That said I cant really speak for Germans maybe they would divide their country too based on old iron curtain borders. But I have visited Dresden, Hamburg, and Munich and all felt very German and Western to me in general. Ive driven thru Czechia and their little towns and villages are almost identical to what we have in Western Ukraine, except they have much better quality roads.
@@yuriydee and western Ukraine which has links with Poland and the Asutrian EMpire of course looks more similar to czech rep than villages near kharkiv. Same could be said with Alsace and Britanny for france. No good answer exists but Central Europe vs West Europe seems also odd enough
@@yuriydee Yeah, same in Romania with Transylvania and parts of Moldova having been a part of Hungary or Austria-Hungary for a very long time, we don't even know how to lable ourselves. We have a lot in common with Central European countries, Balkanic countries, Eastern European countries and even Southern European countries, believe it or not (we even had Greek colonies, and our language is Romance/Latin). I personally always say that Romania is in Southeastern Europe, but even that's debatable, some say it's in Central Europe, but that's a bit of a stretch.
When I was in Czechia, I was told kindly, but firmly, that it was in Central Europe, NOT Eastern Europe.
You were told right. Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia = Central Europe.
All these places were part of the Holy Roman Empire (Germany + Italy, basically) for a thousand years. 50 years of communism can't undo that.
@@leblubblab Then so is Romania if we use that ideology, we wee under Roman empire as well. Our language is based on Latin.
It's Eastern
@@ramondamian5067 Sorry, but when exactly was Romania part of the Holy Roman Empire? Sure, you speak a Latin language, but I'm not sure that's a criterion.
@@leblubblab The proof is in the pudding, "romania". M8, we (Dacians) were conquered by the roman empire and became daco-romans. It's not that hard.
Russia, which is now part of Europe "am I a joke to you?"
Lots of European countries not included in this one. Russia is definitely European (Both European and Asian, but a huge majority of their people live in Europe), same goes for Georgia, Azerbajdzjan and Armenia that I have never seen a map of Europe not including.
And as you've included Turkey, that has a very small part in Europe, you could even include Kazakhstan as it has also got a small part of it's country in Europe.
That "small" part is where we live mostly. It is economically more developed and geographically bigger than many EU states. Plus you cannot even talk about European history without mentioning Turkey.
Asian only in terms of geographic location, but nothing else. Culturally, genetically, historically, etc. Russia never had anything in common with Asia.
Russia is literally the steeoptype of an Eastern European nations
Russia is European, but Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia are not. They are located on the south side of the Caucasus mountains, so geographically in Asia. Culturally speaking they have more in common with the Middle East and Central Asia than with Europe.
Although Russia in foreign policy terms considers itself a European great power, but the Russians don't consider themselves European. They call their civilisation Русский мир which isn't in Europe or Asia, but on its own
I'm more than a bit befuddled by the decision to exclude the elephant in the room, Russia, from Eastern Europe. Stranger still, you included nations like Turkey, which only has a small slice of Europe (Thrace), and Cyprus, which is geographically in Asia.
This is an Angloid geography lesson.
First step, talk about drawing a line in Europe, and then suspiciously exclude the largest country in the continent, Russia, to make a sensible choice. Second step, suddenly add a few Middle Eastern countries to the map for no reason. That's how geography works, of course. Third step, ignore historical regions and oversimplify the map.
Since they extended "Europe" all the way to eastern Turkey here, I was hoping they would add Syria, Iran, and Iraq to the map too, but I guess they missed out on that opportunity. Next time I guess.
Atleast they did not put Australia and Isreael like the eurovision contest did😂
I've grown up to think of Cyprus as European, but many on the internet seem to think it's in Asia.
@@xaverlustig3581 Most Cypriots _are_ ethnically Greek, with a minority Turkish population (while Turkey has some land in Europe, it is still debated whether or not they should be considered European or Middle Eastern, not just externally, but also internally), so you could definitely say the people were European, but in terms of geography, they are undeniably in Asia.
Cyprus is literally part of the Levant, along with nations like Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Israel.
Agree
As a Dutch guy I'm just happy that Belgium is labeled as a flawed democracy.
Zuid nederland heeft zijn problemen ja
I don't know where you were living in the past one year, but would put the NL to the failed democracies, as well. And I am not too happy about it...
@@adongo577 Honestly, there are no more 'proper democracies". All got crooked recently. Its just probably that the author of the ranking they used had some bias towards some aspects of democracy and not the others.
Record setting 541days w/o gouvernment cannot be called flawless.
Speaking of flawed democracies, didn't the Dutch *literally cannibalize their prime minister* that one time 🤔
If only there was some massive geopolitical entity that had control over "eastern europe" that lasted from 1945 to the 90's that explains the sentiment in about a minute.
bro really included turkey in europe but not russia lmao
Well 'Central Europe' is a thing and probably quite appropriately comprised of those countries that didn't score 90% East/West.
True
omitting central europe seems really strange to me. In my opinion there are a lot of countries that are not clearly west or east, Poland, Austria, Germany, Slovakia, ...
@@steinerdrei And Croatia.
Only Germany could be truly considered “Central” in my opinion.
@@ColorPandora Why is that ? Doesnt make sense.
You guys forgot Russia is in Europe... Then the geographic centre of the continent is evident...
Also, perception of east vs west is strongly biased in the language, such as Poland is considered eastern Europe in the UK supermarkets.
Yup
@@russia2328 he...helow.
@@pawog04youtube3 Hey there
Parts of Turkey are also geographically in Europe. It doesn't mean much, though. Russia is not and never has been a European country in terms of mentality and values. It has more in common with central Asian satrapies.
@@PasserMontanus what is European mentality and values
The eastern border of geographical Europe is on Ural mountain range in Russia, not on the Belarusian or Ukrainian border, so this map is misleading anybody who took part in the survey, bro...
Very interesting idea! If we go all the way back to the Eurovision Song Contest 1963, we hear it introduced as a "Western Europe" contest. Yet, it contains entries from Finland, Norway, and Yugoslavia. I don't think we've ever had a real consensus about this divide because of that haha.
The main problem with this map is that there's no Central Europe label.
Countries like Germany, Czechia, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, Slovenia, Croatia, Switzerland (leaving out Bosnia for it's delicate matter), they should all be considered Central Europe. They're neither on the west or east, and all of the countries are similar in fact how both eastern and western cultures clash over them, making them a mish-mash of both.
eastern part of Slovakia and Hungary are actually central Europe, look at the geographical map of European continent , parts of Kazakhstan is in Europe and also 1/4 of the Russian Federation is in Europe
@@stefanbog2495 Middle Europe basically was used to describe the Hapsburg Lands of the Austrian/Hungarian empire. So all the countries within the old borders would qualify. So even Lwiw/Lemberg qualifies as Middle Europe. The division betwen East and West was made, when the Roman Empire was split into East/Oriental and West/Occidental Empires. Here the line would be between Latin christian and Orthodox christian countries.
@@borisbrosowski6630 it is all in technicalities and depends on which "map" are we looking at, i was referring to Geographical location of countries not man made borders or splits between east and west
Slovenia,kroaratia and Bosnia is Balkan
@@stefanbog2495 Geographically speaking Lithuania is central Europe
A version of this poll that doesn't just have East & West, but also has North, South, and Central (and Not Europe?) would be very interesting.
With one version of the poll letting you only pick one category per country, and another version letting you put a country into more than one category (e.g. one might vote Germany as West, North, & Central).
add that to the map vs no map variants and that's 4 new poll variants.
Honestly, it'd be something I'd love to see a few universities across Europe do as a joint project.
YES
Not Europe would likely end up lumping countries on the fringe of Europe but whose governments maintain anti-European foreign and national policies (ex. Turkey, Russia and Belarus)
It would be, but those aren't mutually exclusive either
It's not statistics, it's manipulation: 1. In this video, the map of Europe ends in Belarus and Ukraine, where in reality the border is at the Ural Mountains in Russia. There is also a part of Kazakhstan in Europe, while geographically Turkey is not in Europe. The map prepared in this way incorrectly shows the location of the countries of Central Europe.
2. I don't understand the LGBT question. What does this have to do with Western culture? The culture of the West is Latin civilization, including the same spelling and religion (Latin alphabet, Catholicism), while the East is Byzantine civilization (Orthodox, Greek and Cyrillic), but this film does not even pay attention to it.
My country has over 1,000 years of history in which it has always belonged to the culture of the West. The exception is the times after World War II, when he was betrayed by the Western allies in Yalta and got into the so-called Eastern Bloc. These 40 years of communism were enough to be identified with the East today (1000 years vs 44 years).
People in Europe still live in stereotypes and have very little knowledge of history, geography and geopolitics. They base all their knowledge on subjective films and propaganda information.
In Poland, the nobility's democracy existed already in the 15th century. Currently, we have general elections every 4 years, people have much more freedom of speech than, for example, in Sweden, where comments on internet forums are censored or even blocked. Despite this, in this movie democracy in Poland is assessed at an average level. Why? Mayby… Is democracy when the government does only what Brussels or Berlin wants? Hypocrisy and propaganda like in the Soviet Union.
@@mb9736the democracy index is an external, non-eu measurement 😌
I had a French colleague who was repeatedly talking about his family's cooking traditions in "East Europe". Then we realized that he refers to 'East of France. West of Switzerland, or perhaps Western Austria to the farthest shot'. He was dead serious.
💀
well those idiots think they the whole of europe probably.
Yes! East of Europe is something totally different that East of EU.
@@mikulashrubisko3325 for that guy, Europe was France. French people live in a parallel universe
@@tchugra I mean their refusal of learning any other language very much is self inflicted isolationism
Wait where’s Russia and why turkey is part of Europe?
True, Turkey isn't more european than Georgia, Armenia and Azerbeijan, which he didn't mention
I guess one of the reasons why this works so bad-ish is probably because the North and South is neglected. I’ve never heard someone refer to Finland as “Eastern”, but just as Northern. Same for countries like Italy or Spain, people generally don’t refer to them as Western, but more as Southern
Isn't it the point tho? To see people's bias/opinion regarding western/eastern division?
That's a correct way to look at it geographically, but in socio-economic terms there is usually only west-east.
Next video is a north/south divide.
Some countries are easy, but where do you put Austria? Is it north or south.
@@Pindasaus North. It's cold.
@@_blank-_ You do know that most of Austria's surface area is in fact occupied not by the Alps but by the Danube Valley, which has a climate comparable to northern Italy, right?
I am from Romania, and yes I think there is a stigma about east Europe, is mostly associated with bad things, because of economic issue, social, post communism and so on .I also had this east Europe complex, but I do not give fuck anymore I am proud to be what I am, and things are going better year by year in every east European country.
Why is Turkey and Cyprus part of this but not Russia, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaidjan an Kazakhstan
I am so sick and tired of seen this mistake, Turkey is in Asia Minor, not Europe!
Including Turkey but not Russia in Europe is a bit weird
it's almost like they have a bias
Yes I find that too. It must be Anglo Saxon hostility to Russia
since most people see "eastern europe" as "alligned with russia" what would be the point? :D and that is also why a lot of people in the east hate this east/west thing
@@kristijangrgic9841 Bitch I'm from the UK and I'm pissed that they included Turkey but not Russia.
Russia has always been it's own thing. Not European, not Asian. Even though they oppressed many countries on both sides.
Had you added the option "Central European" most of the "unwilling to be called East"-ern countries would choose that option.
Also from an austrian point of view most younger austrians (those that have no memory of the iron curtain) would put slovenia, czechia and maybe even croatia into the western half due to historical reasons (history that happened before 1914 and after 1991) Especially since 2007, when the clearly eastern countries of romania and bulgaria joined the EU many countries at austria's eastern border moved further "west" in our understanding. On the other side many conservative austrians also have problems associating with "the west", especially france, britian or even germany (the favour Visegrád, italy and switzerland), this is mostly because of political or (in case of italy) religious reasons.
Of course you would. That is maybe the way in the Eastern European countries. They avoid talking about Eastern and prefer to divide Europe into central, north and south. I get it. It's a matter of prestige as said in the video. In the West we still tend to divide Europe in classic terms taking into account history, economics, democracy and personal freedoms, West and East that is.
Yeah for good reason because for example Austria, Germany, Slovenia, Czechia and Hungary were always dealing on their own between eachother, and if you looknat history(HRE, Austrian Empire, Austria-Hungarx etc.) Culture and so on...
Poland,Czechia,Slovakia,Hungary and Croatia.
@@panzerbanz7296 exactly
I also like to look at the east-west question culturally. I usually joke that austria is the most western eastern european country, mostly because i see so much shared culture due to the history of KuK austria. For example a lot of traditional eastern european foods are also traditional austrian foods, just with a different name. my bosnian friend and i (from eastern austria) have more in common than me and my german friends. i think this historical connection is something to consider. also, of course, most of what we today think of as eastern is basically ex-soviet nations. there are a lot of people in the comments pointing out that it is now more useful to have a central-west-east-south divide and i totally agree with that
I think the answer is just that people are always closest to their neighbors. As a German who grew up in the south west and now lives in Bavaria, I felt very close to France for most of my life, but now feel closer to Czechia. When I hop over the border, the food in Czechia is very similar to the one in Bavaria. Historically, there'S also huge connections of course. So, since you're from eastern austria it makes perfect sense. Certainly though a person from Linz wouldn't say that bavarian food is completely different. I think this is probably the flaw of any such divisions, now. Cause ultimately we all feel probably closest to our neighbors (unless we have proper reason to hate them). So, if the line happens to be drawn right east to your country, it would seem odd. Cause I don't know about Austria and Germany, but certainly Austria and Spain feel much further apart than Austria and Slovakia. And as a German, as much as I've never had any issues with any Irish people, Czechia or Poland are just much closer. Whether I as a German feel more connected to our western or eastern neighbors depends entirely on where I live.
Yeah Austria very much has a Central european identity like Czechia
Why there is just half of european continent? Draw complete continent map with that large part of russia, and you'll see that Poland, Czechia and Slovakia are clearly in the center of it. That's why they call themselves central european states.
Somebody explain why Turkey is considered European and Russia is excluded.
because this channel is from united kingdom, and russia and uk have historical rivalry.
@@saccount-z3 I'm from the UK and even I am pissed off by this bullshit.
It's more about this specific channel then what the West thinks about Russia because we do think that Russia is definitely more then qualified to be a European country.
@@olsenfernandes3634
*His last name is "Fernández*
"But I am from the UK" 🤣🤣🤣
Sure thing, pal 🤣🤣🤣
@@XavierbTM1221 you know there is a thing called "immigration" and "moving abroad", right?
@@thodorispapa9864 Thank you
Why did you guys include Turkey but not Russia?
I would quess that Russia would have been only country getting 100% east if it was included
@@samuelsilver8077 When I was voting I chose that I'm from Europe. Then They asked from which European country I am. Russia wasn't on the list so I guess it's not about that
@@samuelsilver8077 Yes but Turkey isn't even European except for the tiny bit of land West of the straight.
@@olsenfernandes3634 Majority of Russia isnt in Europe either... Majority of Russian population is though.
@@samuelsilver8077 Exactly, plus Russia is far more involved with Europe then Turkey.
Other then Byzantium, Turkey was never close to Western.
One rank is missing from this ranking… (Central). Poland is not east or west! We are Central Europe. We are in the middle and the heart of Europe.
map at 2:53 clearly shows that Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, and Slovenia are in Central Europe
How is Turkey in the poll but Russia isn't? Russia is the country i'ld most strongly consider eastern european. Wereas calling Turkey european is very much debateable.
Yeah, this is weird. This channel is about Europe and keep including Turkey in everything and painting Russia as evil. But if you look on the streets, yeah, maybe Europe is in Turkey.
Because if you put Russia and the caucazian countries on the map, every other european country is in the west.
If their only debate is owning a tiny bit of Balkan area then there really is no debate.
It's like France deciding to call itself South American". Wth is EU thinking by letting Turkey apply into the EU?
Yeah, thats dumb. If a country has bits of territory in europe it is a shame they didnt include russia and the caucasus, and cyprus isnt europe. I guess its due to germany inviting more turks. After all you behave nicely to people you want to do business with.
@@olsenfernandes3634 A tiny bit also known as the city of the world's desire, and a tiny bit that has more population than that of Greece
The map is a bit misleading since geographically western russia is part of europe.
I would add central europe including germany,poland,austria,czech republic,slovakia,hungary,slovenia and croatia.
"slovakia, hungary, slovenia and croatia" as central?
@@Luredreier I think so If you look at a map of all of geographical europe.Perhaps without croatia but the others fit.
@@Aestholus It is actually just my perception but I think Poland is Eastern Europe, Croatia is more suitable to be Balkans. Hungary is East. Germany is West. Slovenia is in the hole of nowhere(just kidding =) )
The above is just a personal perception, based on history and my understanding of the countries. And a bit of sarcasm
@M G Google Balkan Peninsula - it will tell you Croatia is 46% in it. Balkan isn't just a mountain, or mountain area in Bulgaria. So yes, please do check the maps. Thanks!
Europe is Europe. No lines.
Update the video with the "Central Europe" category ;) which is closer to people feelings in V4, baltics and HR, SLO
For me living in European part of Russia it was quite intimidating that it wasn't even on the survey. I could understand that politically now Russia is very separated from Europe, generally by internal rhetoric of Russian establishment, but this seemed as ignorance of historical and cultural ties of Russia and Europe. Especially when other transcontinental country, Turkey, was on the list despite having less percentage of land geographically and population residing in Europeen part that Russia did.
I can understand the reasons for non-including Russia on survey but at the end it seemed quite unlogical for me
+++, it is really strange to see a Turkey instead of Russia
Thing is, historically Russia has always been othered when it comes to Europe. Essentially the European Powers (France, Austro-Hungaria, Whatever the fuck Germany was calling itself that day, Britain, etc), for centuries, never really wanted to see Russia as one of them. So Russia in the mind of everyone from that region is not "European" despite geography having something else to say on the matter. So I am not too surprised that it's not on the survey - to this day Russia is some eastern invader or enemy that threatens Europe, just as it has always been portrayed for generations.
The inclusion of Turkey is even more baffling too, I'll admit, since it very much shares the same perceptions in the minds of Europeans, so it's odd that it was included in this one.
For him Turkey is Europan country, but Russia not...
@@JenxRodwell The Survey was made by a Brit...
That plays a large role in this.
Someone from Eastern, Central, Southern or Northern Europe might have a more nuanced view then people like him from Western Europe...
Remember that Britain was a naval power.
Byzantine, the Ottomans and Turkey all had more of a role at sea then Russia did and had more interaction with Britain.
You answered your question yourself - the reason is the political separation of Russian politics and the specific us vs them rhetoric. Also it is obviously eastern, not like it would have been a surprise to anyone. But Turkey does not seem like it belongs in the poll either tbh.
As a neutral-minded Swiss and someone who rarely comments on TH-cam videos, I feel compelled to make an effort on this one.
The question is fundamentally flawed because Eastern Europe doesn't start where Western Europe stops, it's not a dichotomy.
Central Europe is pretty well defined, encompassed between Switzerland & Germany in the west and Poland & Hungary in the east. It is our doubtless understanding (in school geography, the news, etc.) that we're not in Western Europe, and as I understand the Czech feel the same. We even have "Mitteleuropa" sports events with those countries.
Asking random internet users to assign us to Eastern/Western has no use whatsoever, except for maybe some echo chamber / polarisation effect.
Speaking of... we always smirk at news reporting in certain countries, pointing out how obvious their bias is. But then here's a video asking for European assignment, and it leaves out Russia. By our basic history education (maybe it's different in the UK...), Russia has been fully within Europe for the first few hundred years of its existence, has the vast majority of population in Europe nowadays, and is generally considered European except by some heavily biased ideologists.
It's sad to see the casualness with which videos like this take on an extreme position.
I've found this channel to be educational some times but deeply biased against Russia. It's weird to see "intelectual level" sources like this acting so petty.
I totally agree with you
I’ve worked with many Russians and honestly, outside of sport & the EuroVision (which you’ll find the likes of Isreal, Turkey and the former soviet republics in etc.) not of them considered themselves European, not even a little bit. This surprised me given the the cultural & historical links but that was their opinion, which they assured me was common.
The survey is flawed & reductive but it is interesting for perceptions, not least the difference between how residents and neighbours see themselves and each other.
Yep, agree so much with you
I know how in the world can TURKEY be on here but not Russia
I think the reason Greece appeared more western for mapviewers was the proximity between Greece and southern Italy
Lots of Factors, it is Mediterranean European like South Italy & Spain…it is the foundation of European History, and it has even given the name Europe to the continent itself! Also been in the EU for a while, Nato Country, and also is Politically Western. Never fell under communism, is not Slavic etc
The border between east and west is marked by... cathedrals. The last countries of the west are: Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia and Croatia. Farther away there are no cathedrals, there is Orthodoxy and the east of Europe begins.
The "simple" east-west might be the most common way of splitting Europe, but that doesn't make it the least ignorant one.
The history and culture of Europe are way more complicated than to be able to put European countries into two boxes, regardless of the criteria of the two boxes.
Similarly, where is the line between Southern Europe and Northern Europe? Well, we can tell for sure that the Mediterranean countries are Southern Europe and the Scandinavian countries (along with Finnland and the Baltics) are Northern Europe. But where to put all the other countries in between? Where is the exact North-South dividing line?
I can't put the V4 countries neither to North/South nor to East/West boxes. We call ourselves Central Europeans. Our culture is distinct enough of the Nordic, the Mediterranean, the Russian, the Balkanic and the British culture, so that Central Europe is a region.
For me putting Estonia, Albania and Czechia to the same box is just ridiculous. This whole east-west approach of Europe is based on ignorant cold war stereotypes and lacks the understanding of European history.
Well, you can draw vertical lines on the map of Europe, it just doesn't make much more sense than an arbitrary horizontal line on the same map.
I think that that was a lot of their point. They did this to show the arbitrary and inconsistent nature of the line.
i consider the v4 as eastern european. those nations are much more culturally similar to the former ussr nations, and the east-west divide is basically "looks russian-doesn't look russian"
@@Ray_Vun But when you compare Russia with Czechia, for example (or any other V4 country for that matter) there are big differences in Culture, Wealth and History (except the last century)
@@TheTrueYes that's not what caused the western world to make the division. it's purely a xenophobic thing. they look and sound russian enough to be mistaken as russian, so they get shoved in the mix. eastern european is basically synonym with russian looking
@@Ray_Vun You have a point there. But because of the lack of knowledge abaut the history and culture of these countries they are always called eastern even when they are in many aspects more western. In addition this term is often used as an insult.
I love how Russia isn’t even Europe anymore
I grew up in the seventies and eighties, when the Iron Curtain was still dividing Europe. Intuitively, that's still where I would put the border.
But when I try to view it rationally, with that dividing line, the eastern part of Europe would be _much_ larger than the western part, taking into account that traditionally, the European border has drawn at the Ural mountains (and in some definitions even includes countries such as Georgia).
So, in that sense, Poland (for example) would probably be more 'central' Europe than eastern, or perhaps even 'western Europe'.
The centre of Europe is around Minsk/Kiev so Yes....Poland is in Western Europe :)
@franohmsford7548 The centre of Europe is in Poland/Slovakia/Hungary. I would say that Poland is central but definitely not western.
@@franohmsford7548If we go by your logic then the only country in eastern Europe would be Russia..
@@Cvpid_xx You forget Georgia :)
@@Cvpid_xx No, the centre of Europe is in Ukraine and Belarus - Europe ends at the Ural Mountains.
A correction, Hungary is definetely in the Shengen area.
The problem of the west/east divide has also a "secret" problem. Where does Europe end? Because if Europe ends on the Russian border like you show then yeah this divide based on voters makes sense. But I think if you showed a map with the European border on the Ural Mountains then results may be different.
in this case Russia will be an ultimate "East Europe" with all patemeters (may be except religion) mentioned in the video cranked up to extreme :)
There are also a few more arguably European countries east of the Black Sea (Georgia, parts of Armenia and Azerbaijan).
There is a hungarian comedy movie called "Csinibaba", one of the scenes fits here. A group of people talking, one of them asks "Is Helsinki 'west'?". After a short discussion, the consensus was: "Helsinki is east-west in the north". :D
i think i would probably draw the line quite similar, but maybe id consider czechia, slovenia, slovakia and estonia a bit more western
As a Swede. I would say Finland and Estonia are western, or northern sounds even better. Latvia and Lithuania are definitely Eastern European in my eyes
I would say all these are Eastern, thanks.
@@MrTekeshiFinland 🇫🇮 is a Nordic and western country with Sweden 🇸🇪 Norway 🇸🇯 Denmark 🇩🇰 and Iceland 🇮🇸 politically, culturally, economically, religiously and geographically. They are all members of the Nordic council and are prosperous countries with a high standard of living.
None of these countries were never parts of the Soviet union. Never under communism and never eastern bloc countries.
The Baltic countries are Estonia 🇪🇪, Latvia 🇱🇻 and Lithuania 🇱🇹.
They were under communism and economically far behind western and Nordic countries.
@@butterflies655 Being in eastern bloc (always by force) defines country as eastern?
Interestingly, what happened to Central Europe? I have always thought of Eastern Europe as those countries that had not been part of the western civilization - usually not using the Latin alphabet, usually not Roman Catholic or Protestant. Thus Germany, Poland, the Baltics, Austria, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Czech Republic, and Slovakia are Central Europe.
Since the Angloid map-maker pushed subtle propaganda, and excluded Russia on this video on purpose, and for no reason at all, Central Europe doesn't exist anymore. Its just Eastern Europe now.
Baltics are Northern.
by that categorization you'd have to include romania in central europe which doesnt make much sense due to geography
Funny enough an eastern country as Romania, uses Latin Alphabet also the language itself resembles a lot to Italian and Spanish.
@@ramondamian5067 Cause Romanian is a Romance language just like Spanish, Portuguese, French and Italian.
I don’t understand why Russia is not included as a European country. Considering that your video includes Turkey as a European country because it has a tiny part of the country in the continent of Europe, more of Russia is in the continent of Europe… your bias seems to be showing and it’s skewing you poll.
It's like calling Morroco "European" if they had Gibraltar.
Russia has always been it's on thing. Not European, not Asian. Even though they oppressed many countries on both sides.
Because of the political baggage that comes with the label "Eastern Europe" some former communist countries resent it, Czechia and Poland being the prime examples. If I were forced to call Poland either Western or Eastern, then it's probably slightly more Eastern, but I think it would be even harder for Czechia, which I truly do not know where to put. It's literally both equally.
East Vs west is more a religious concept
Would have been interesting to have included “central” is the options. East/west is far too binary.
So there is Turkey but isnt European side of Russia. Whats up with that?
You know that a lot of Europeans dont see Turkey as European, even if they have that small part of Europe.
Author is Muslim and Turk himself
@@krakendragonslayer1909 neither of these are considered European though.
Which is quite ironic.
@@TheZett Compare 1930s Nazi Germany Vs 2020s Communist Chinazi IN YOUR NEXT VIDEO Project before it's too late
Just like Mordor was part of Middle Earth Russia is part of Europe. It is evil and "east" ofc.
@@pekkanumminen81 Despite Mordor was based on early iron age lands of nowadays Poland (then inhabited by Veneti and by Celths).
I think term eastern vs western europe is mostly used in the west. From point of view of Slovak citizen, we, Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland are Central Europe. Everything on the south is Balkan, term Southern Europe is used for Italy, Spain and Portugal. Term Eastern Europe is everything ex-CCCP except Baltics, these are disputable and in 50% of cases considered Northern Europe which means Scandinavian peninsula. The rest is the West.
as a norwegian I decline the offer of being a western nation and I'm require everybody here to refer Norway to northern europe
Based on that map it seems like mostly western Europeans have voted, especially since the map itself does not depict the geographical boundaries of the European continent, but a more political perspective of it.
In Czechia the term "Eastern European" is borderline insulting. There is about as little political, cultural and economic connection to the real Eastern Europe as there is to the Western Europe. Central Europe is the only acceptable label here. Similar to how the Eastern-Western divide makes remarkably little sense in the Nordic Countries...
It's the affect of recent history and the Iron curtain. Shrugging of the V4 countries plus Slovenia and Croatia (started as Catholic aka culturally western kingdoms) when all are older than half of the ones voted here as western is laughable. Part of it is also that most of the patrons of the channel who voted are "westerners" as well.
Pay it no mind, it's ignorance with which we have to live with for the foreseeable future. A lot of disaster tourists come here and are surprised that these countries aren't the shit holes they thought they would be, but they are still a fraction of the people who vote on these polls.
Similarly up here in Finland... it definitely in a way hurt to hear there's such doubt about where we stand in the world.
The Western-eastern divide makes ALL the sense in the world for the Nordic Countries. We are all 100% Western Countries.
Putting the Nordic Countries in the same bag as Russia would be the worst insult ever... the only thing in common would be the booze ;)
The Nordic countries as Northern Europe without Russia totally fine :)
As a swede I might consider Estonia someday in the future (perhaps) as a Northern Country, but there are major differences I think.
Finish people might see this slightly different though (the Estonia part).
@@jo1918 As a Finn, I'd agree that Estonians are in an awkward gap between the two, like a teen between childhood and adulthood.
However my gut instinct is that we're probably being a bit harsh on them based on memories from 5,10,20 years ago.
what is the real eastern europe here ? and what the real west . If you choose this path the real west is North France/England/Benelux and Real East: European Russia . Of course on this gradient it only is obvious czechs lay somewhere in between but let assure you that if you are from lets say wallonia and go to Czech rep it will feel more different than for a person from Kiev going to Czech rep too (culturally especially). Ties do exist but its crazy Central Europe has such a strong drain while it makes no sense to add if you keep east west around. Why ? Because even in "central europe" Germany is still closer to Benelux and even france than to Slovakia or Hungary. Moreover East-West makes sense because you get roughly two blocks of equal pop. Within East and West divisions still exist and it will always be very imperfect ( Lithuania/albania or Portufgal/finland are some extremes). But the more you cut the more you need to make a case for each division and quickly you realize it doesn't hold
for anyone who doesn't care for a nine minute video the map is at 9:32
I like to think that us, the Czechs, are the perfect synthesis of East and West, good enough at Counter Strike to be Eastern, but with functional enough tax policy to be Western.
CS:GO as a criteria to choose your side :D
They suck at CS:GO.
@@Milosevica. which is exactly what makes us Western. We play enough to be considered Eastern, but we have a functioning economy so we have jobs as well, can’t just sit indoors all day ignoring paternal alcoholism and iron deficiency.
Another important factor that in my opinion would influence the results would be if you included Russia, which I don’t understand why wasn’t included..
I don't see how Russia would be a factor in any way. The vast majority of people would consider Russia the epitome of eastern Europe geographically, economically, socially and politically.
@@luiseduardogonzalezquiroz272 it whould make every nation exept russia seem more western geographycally so thats how it whould influence East west divide
its called subtle propaganda.
Yeah, I have no idea why Russia wasn't included, it somewhat detracts from the value of the poll as a result.
@@luiseduardogonzalezquiroz272 cold war lol, the east west divide clearly follows the iron curtain, even in how finland and greece landing on the west side despite their geography because they avoided becoming communist during WW2
Why not use geography? Europe ends at Ural mountains - you've completely missed the biggest part of Eastern Europe which lies in Russia. What a farce.
Everything east of Poland, Slovakia, Romania and the Baltic states is Eastern Europe
including Turkey and excluding Russia? strange ranking
How is Russia NOT considered Europe, whereas Turkey is?
Can you explain that to me, TLDR News EU?
geographically Russia is part of Asia, but politically part of Europe
@@buhaysaudiOfficial you should learn geography, russia is 25% europe and population is 75% in that european part and history of europe can not be talked with out russia
@@buhaysaudiOfficial Russia has a sizeable chunk in Europe
@@buhaysaudiOfficial geographically russia is part of Europe and asia its transcontinental country but culturally they're Europeans
Both shouldn't be part of Europe!
Europe goes to the ural so why wasnt russia inclueded in the survey ? Now all countries seem more eastern than they actually are
I'd say Romania is East for sure. The divide probably ends up being what ended up being Soviet post WW2 and what ended up being allies.
Greece is in Southern Europe, though, not Eastern. Calling Greece Eastern European is a bit like calling France part of Northern Europe just because it sits on the coast.
Well Greece sits at southernmost part of Balkan peninsula which is South Eastern Europe. So Greece if we decide to go binary is unequivocally Eastern Europe both due geography and its history and culture up to Cold War. Noone would count European Turkey as Western Europe. Its cos ppl see the term as political with only late 20th century connotations and not as actual geographical term you've got problem with it. Is it problematic to count Cambodia as part of southeastern Asia just like Singapore or Thailand? No? Then Greece as part of( South) Eastern Europe shouldn't raise anyones eyebrow either.
France also sits on the equator, which is why the JWST was launched (last saturday) from that piece of France.
@@rehurekj
Culturally, historically, geographically and socially it has more in common with other Mediterranean/Southern countries (Italy, Spain, Cyprus) than with the Balkan (majority Slavic population) and the east continental Europe.
@Vasili YT hardly. If you wanna divide Europe to 2more or rather less cohesive but somewhat logical blocks by combining our intertwined national histories, cultures, geographies, ethnicities etc and not just postww2 US foreign politics then Greece deffo falls firmly into the east one- the orthodox/ muslim ottoman/ russian one rather than catholic/ protestant germano/ romance block like Italy.
That's the only binary division of Europe that generally makes sense taking into account more than economy and welfare/ tax policies and changing and no longer so distinct social attitides regarding religion( like the north south division) and the border runs thru Polish- lithuanian commonwealth and along turkish- hungarian later austrian frontier thus approximately along today's Schengen border.
Culturally and historically even ancient Mediterranean and later roman world was divided that way- latin( and punic and celtic) west and greek( and persian and later turkish and slavic) east and we are still divided along more or less the same lines 2thousand years later.
Greek is orthodox christian. Orthodox Christiantiy is since 1000 years back affiliated with eastern europe.
Well lets not pretend east and west division of europe has anything to do with actual geography( Finland), economy( Slovenia or Czechia) or their thousand years of history- except less than 50years during last half of 20th century.
Lets call it what it is- postcommunist Europe but if we dont want to be hypocrites then we have call analogously the other half postfascist Europe- its the same logic during 20th century many of those states- Italy, Spain, Portugal, Germany, even formally independent France during WW2, were fascist and didnt turn communist after the WW2 and thus should be label as such in perpetuity just like their former communist counterparts.
You are already seeing that with Slovenia, Czechia and so on, that they are considered much less Eastern. My guess is that we will seem them trying to be considered Central Europe, with the Baltics being considered Nordic and Eastern Europe ending up being Slavic non EU countries, aminly Russia, Ukraine, Belarus.
Greece was also never communist, but seems to be considered Eastern.
Rip Croatia then, both fascist and communist XD
@Olaf Sikorski thats the case of every formerly fascists state in postcommunist europe. Slovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, even post Munich czecholovakia and late interwar Poland had certain fascist tendencies.
@@rehurekj You're not wrong, however for interwar Poland had an authoritarian government formed by the (formerly?) socialist party. It was actively persecuting only activists: nationalist, communists as well as nazi sympathisers to suppress political dissidents. That's quite a bit different from what the Ustaše brought upon Croatia.
"Well lets not pretend east and west division of europe has anything to do with actual geography( Finland)"
You could justify that geographically by also considering Northern and Southern Europe separate from Eastern and Western Europe. That way you can also count Greece as Southern rather than Eastern. You could also count Central Europe separately though that would make things quite messy.
I believe most of the people in Slovakia would say they live in the Central Europe. Also from my perspective...we live in the heart of Europe.... V4 countries are definitely the Central European counries. That's how we look at the map from here :) :)
I mostly agree, but I’d put Czechia, Croatia, Slovenia, and Slovakia on the western side.
I honestly feel the labels „Eastern“ and „Western“ (European) don’t make a lot of sense anymore. After all, the Iron Curtain has fallen more than 30 years ago… If you need labels, use those which are geographic in nature w/o any additional political connotation (Atlantic, Mediterranean, Central, Balkan Peninsula, Scandinavia/Nordic, Baltic, etc.).
I think what you are missing here is that the "West-East" division goes right through central europe. I would generally agree with the division being between Poland and Germany and Austria and Czechia, but i also consider all 4 of them central european. In Germany and Austria we usually don't mind being lumped in with western europe, but the central european countries on the eastern side have a very complicated history with actual eastern Europe (which is Ukraine, Belarus and Russia), so they probably don't like the label for politcal/historical reasons.
Well said
Also es ist schon eine Beleidigung, irgendwas Deutsches mit sowas wie Polen oder Tschechien oder irgend etwas anderem slawischen irgendwo in Osteuropa in Verbindung zu bringen.
@@g.f.w.6402 Ach schlimmer als mit den Inselaffen und Franzacken in einen Hut gesteckt zu werden ist es auch nicht.
@@timokohler6631 ich finde es schon beleidigend und obszön mit Osteuropäern in irgendeine Art Beziehung gesetzt zu werden. Und die Mehrheit der Deutschen auch. Neueste Statistiken zeigen, dass Polen und Tschechien die unbeliebtesten Nachbarländer mit dem mit Abstand geringsten Ansehen sind.
@@g.f.w.6402 durchschnittlicher 1938 Kommentar🗿👍🏼
The "Western-Eastern" division is just so wrong. I'm surprised that you didn't include Central Europe or Southern Europe, which is also distinct.
Not including " Mitteleuropa" is a big mistake. Many Poles,the Baltic Republics, Hungary,former Yugos,see themselves as MIDDLE European, not Eastern. 9:58
How did you chuckleds forget to mention the former Iron Curtain in this video?
That's literally how the continent used to be divided and many people still go by that line when making the distinction.
The only iron curtain I know was a thing to build in command and conquer lmao