The logical Law of Identity applies here. The fundamental ontological, personal, ethical, etc. concepts of the God of Islam and the God of Christianity describe two distinctly different beings; and this by definition.
The One is many and the many are One. Logic is not the way to approach this. As st. Maximos said: St Maximus the Confessor (On the Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ): We are speechless before the sublime teaching about the Logos, for he cannot be expressed in words or conceived in thought. Although he is beyond being and nothing can participate in him in any way, nor is he any of the totality of things that can be known in relation to other things, nevertheless we affirm that the one Logos is many logoi and the many logoi are One. Because the One goes forth in goodness into individual being, creating and preserving them, the One is many. Moreover, the many are directed toward the One and are providentially guided in that direction. It is as though they were drawn to an all-powerful center that had built into it the beginnings of the lines that go out from it and that gathers them all together. In this way the many are one.
@@dionysis_ I assume you would apply logical laws to your disagreement with me (specifically the Law of Non-Contradiction which says that both my view and your view cannot both be true because they make mutually exclusive claimes). You are clearly assuming the Law of Non-Contradiction (the LNC) in order to say that my view is mistaken... yet, the LNC is predicated on the Law of Identity... which was my initial assertion in the discussion... and which you reject. Why think the LNC applies to meaningful reasoning about God but that it doesn't apply to God himself? Further, in rejecting the Law of Identity, you have by default also rejected the LNC, so you have defeated your own grounds on which to say my statement, let alone any other statement about anything whatsoever is either true or false. You have rejected meaning itself. In such case your reply and St. Maximus' statement would not only be wrong, but would also be utterly meaningless. Do you disagree that your consept of God is wrong and meaningless? Careful, because if you do then you have utilized the laws of logic to do so.
@@terryhollifield9343 I understand why you would think that what I am saying is contradictory but this is just because you are looking at it through the lense of logic assumming that logic is the manner by which Truth is reached. I will do my best to clarify. The issue of identity is a difficult one. You can claim that when two people look at the same thing and their perceptions do not match it follows that one of them is wrong. This is completely false. If we have a chair in the middle of a forest and a dog and a human look at it they do not **see** the same thing (the same logos to use the Christian term). Only the human sees the percept 'chair'. So by your definition what the dog sees is not true? Of course it is. It is a facet of the nature of what for us is a chair. The law of non-contradiction as well as the law of identity are correct in the realm of abstract quantified thought. But observing the world you can confirm that the boundaries of things, which is to say the logoi of things, are nested and their point of coalescing into a percept is a kind of knowledge. This knowledge is more fundamental than intellectual knowledge. If you think this is mumbo jumbo I strongly recommend the two books by Henri Bortoft 'The Wholeness of Nature' and 'Taking Appearance Seriously'. Also the book 'The Master and His Emissary' for the scientific evidence of the two manners of knowing.
@@dionysis_ The problem is that you are attempting to refute the use of logic while using logic in order to attempt your refutation. If you can give me a reason to reject logic *without using logic to do so* then we can discuss things. Until then, there's really nothing more to be said about it. You are defeating your own view... and it is necessarily so because logic simply reflects a fundamental part of reality in such a way that rational discourse cannot be conducted without it.
@@terryhollifield9343 I am not using logic. Firstly, there is a distinction between reason and formal logic. Second, my view is based on the phenomenological method which is not analytical. It really is hard to grasp but I have given you some sources and I am open to a discussion. But your current line of defence is just not functional in this case. If you could be more precise on what is wrong in my last reply then we can possibly develop the discussion.
No. Whatever claim Muslims want to make it not the case that they follow in the Old Testament covenant . Furthermore if you’re a Christian then there’s absolutely no chance it’s the same God given that Christ is literally God.
@cathy newton no, the holy scirpture got changed by people hence one of the reason quran was revealed to correct the doubtful matters. Also according to Jews muslims worship the same God and the trinitarians are classified as pagans.
@cathy newton I understand the history of the new testament, the gospel that was closest to any supposed event was written generations after the supposed event. The oldest was written 100yrs after the supposed events. No one knows who wrote them, and no one knows who wrote the old testament. So yea, I know q good deal about it
I know a minister who is the sweetest most loving Christian I know, full of love and caring for all in her community and beyond and acts on that love. She is highly intelligent (Oxford graduate) and likes to read up on areas of interest. I had a discussion with her a couple of years ago and she was all for building bridges with Muslims to find common ground religiously, i disagreed with her stating that Islam is irreconcilable with Christianity as it completely denounces and denies the core tenets of Christianity. A few months ago while talking she raised Islam again and stated that she had since read about Islam in far greater depth and realised that the basic belief of Islam is at polar ends from Christianity and they can not be reconciled. She then went on to state that Muslims though are still people and should be loved and helped but that that Christians should not give any ground to Islam itself. As such interfaith meetings are fine to find ways for Christians and Muslims to to live together in peaceful harmony and happily but not to find ways to bring the two religions together as that is not possible given the Islamic stance. Something I fully agree with.
This answers it, whether your a Muslim, Jehovah witness or a 👽. 1 JOHN 4:8 But anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love. Mathew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
Reading many of the comments, I am a little dismayed that so many people use these discussions and then pronounce a 'winner', who is possibly the one who most agrees with their previously held beliefs. I love these discussions for the greater level of understanding I get and the appreciation of the different opinions. It was interesting in this debate to see how the views of both Andy and Josiah have developed and changed over time - through study and experience. Excellent.
I disagree completely with his notion that the God mentioned in the Quran is not a god of love. Literally the 2nd verse of the 1st chapter tells us he is Al-Rahman, Al-Raheem, the Extremely loving and caring that the constantly loving and caring. The root of both these words is the arabic, Rahm, which means "womb"; like the womb of a mother. God loves us in the same fashion a mother loves her unborn child (but God's love is of a higher magnitude of course).
I was thinking the same. This Andy guy is just bigoted and I highly doubt he even read Quran once let alone doing a deeper linguistic analysis. In psalm 5:5 God of Bible is also known for hating the sinners so I don’t what he’s trying to present.
And ask forgiveness from your Lord and turn to Him in repentance, Verily my Lord is Most Merciful, Most Loving. (Quran 11:90) He is oft Forgiving and full of Loving Kindness. (Quran 85:14
@@jeremywongzijun1994 As limited beings, we can only know what the Creator, Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala is from what He tells us. He us unlimited, Al Knowing. Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala is Al Wadud In Islam, الودود (al-Wadud) is one of the 99 names of God. It means the Most Loving. It was mentioned twice in the Quran, first in Surah Hud, which stated “Seek forgiveness from your Lord, then turn towards Him in repentance. Surely, my Lord is very merciful, most loving.” To believe He must be pluralised, when He tells you no such thing is unwise. To believe He is or needs to become a man when He says He is unchanging (and by necessity is unchanging), is also unwise. The Lord you God is One Lord.
@@reesecane7878 but Allah is limited by his throne where he sits (Surah 11:7). Many places in the Quran says that his throne. And Allah istawa (goes up to) his throne (32:4). What do you mean he is unlimited? Your Allah is a solid, finite being, who is neither omnipresent nor omnipotent nor infinite. Don’t steal from the god of the Bible.
@@jeremywongzijun1994 This throne is accepted to be more metaphoric. Also although we state Allah as a he, in arabic its a more gender neutral meaning. Allah is above all and we dont know what God doesn't seem necessary to us. He gave us freewill .... He gave us Science to discover in his name.
If God is omnipresent , present in everything so the highest form of worship is to find his presence in you. The fruits of this practice are peace , equanimity, and mastery over you 're animal nature. You become and harmonious being. I like archbisop answer.
@@reesecane7878 yeah, "And indeed We have created man, and We know whatever thoughts his inner self develops, and We are closer to him than (his) jugular vein." (Quran 50:16) . One of God's names is اَلْوَاسِع (al-wāsiʿ), which means the "The Vast, The All-Embracing, The Omnipresent, The Boundless, The All-Encompassing"
@@kamlasayeen I suggest "omnipresent" in terms of His knowledge. Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala does not enter His creation, He doesn't need to, He's Al Aleem, The All Knowing.
Hi Justin, honestly I love your work as a Muslim and have benefitted a lot from your material during this past lockdown year, so thank you. That being said, I think it would be fruitful to have a traditional, orthodox Muslim on to balance this discussion. This discussion is at the heart of the existence of billions of people, and I think warrants a live Muslim pushback. Without getting into it here, most Muslims would have strong issue with some of the reductionist notions of our theology like the afterlife being a 'party in the sky', or that for Muslims eternal divine connection and being saved from divine alienation as not worthy of mention or perhaps even dismissed by the Islamic theology entirely. It would also be edifying to explore why so many Jews reject Christian theology while feeling much closer to Islamic theology; refusing to pray in churches but can pray in mosques. There are more problematic examples to explore such as the issue of the Islamic God 'not loving sinners' and how this somehow means the Islamic God is not loving, but fundamentally my point is that this discussion requires the other side to engage with. Thank you!
@cathy newton Thanks for your reply Cathy. That's fascinating that you're Unitarian. We have a strong agreement there in worshipping one God only. May I ask why you wouldn't accept Muhammad as a Prophet? Please do keep it respectful otherwise I will disengage. Also I stand by that Jews reject trinity and the divinity of Jesus, which is obviously the position of most Christian churches in the world, hence my claim that Pauline Christianity has strong pagan and hellenistic theological foundations, which contradict the pure monotheism of Judaism and the Old Testament.
@cathy newton So I'll have to correct you, the Quran actually corrects the scriptures because the scriptures have a ton of contradictions. From history, to prophecy, to genealogy, to science, to describing the lives of the Prophets, to variations in writing styles etc etc. Honestly this is not the place for such a discussion. We can have an email exchange if you prefer, but you are wrong about the Quran I'm afraid.
@cathy newton Sorry Cathy, the option for respectful and edifying dialogue is there if you want an email exchange, but I get the impression you just want to debunk Islam rather than learn and exchange ideas. Good luck with your existential and spiritual journey. Sidi
'most Muslims would have strong issue with some of the reductionist notions of our theology like the afterlife being a 'party in the sky'' Yeah, I'm no expert on Islam by any means but I nonetheless know that Andy is talking bollocks when he implies that the notion of 'a new heavens and a new Earth' is not part of Islamic theology.
Half way through and it seems these chaps are talking past each other, one is talking about Islam and Christianity while the other is talking about Muslims and Christians. While still an interesting discussion it might have been better if they subject was more specifically agreed between the parties prior to the discussion taking place.
Insightful distinction. Jesus valued people (that religious people disapproved), and He met them where they were. "I know that all of you possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up." 1 Cor. 8:1 Why would you not encourage a Muslim who is close to the true God in his personal understanding, building on the foundation God had already laid in his life through his experience and culture, and instead focus on telling him everything and everyone in Islam is wrong. Why not tell him, "You are not far from the Kingdom of God"?
@@rsteveslater So at what point do you tell them the truth that Muhammad was a false prophet and not the best example of mankind and that Jesus is God?
@@User_Happy35 I've told the few Muslims I've met that Muhammad encouraged us to read the Injil (New Testament) and to date none have refused. In spite of being told the NT is full of errors in translation, they encounter Jesus through reading the Scriptures and some even in dreams or visions. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to reveal to them who Jesus is. Matthew 16:16-17 (ESV) Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven". In fact, no one can really call Jesus Lord except by the work of the Holy Spirit. As for Muhammad, unlike Jesus, mere prophets are human and sinful, as we see from many examples in the Old Testament. Sometimes I think by confronting and arguing we can slam the door to the Kingdom in someone's face. Give others time to come to their own conclusions by providing information (the Bible) gently and patiently asking questions to understand and being a letter of Christ to them by your life in your own relationship with them.
@@reesecane7878 Thanks for a good question. Short answer: because the Gospels are not purely metaphysical but intertwined with real people, geographical locations, dates and events, which are often verifiable. For example: "In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet..."Luke 3:1-4 (ESV) Longer answer: I recommend F.F. Bruce "The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable".
Archbishop Josiah is talking as a politician not as a servant of God because the question was is Muslim worship the same God with Christian?? But he is beating around the bush
I can't help but be disappointed by this debate - not because either participant were bad, per say, but because they seemed to be talking past each other. Andy Bannister is making an argument from theology and the historical origins of each religion, and the Archbishop Idowu-Fearon is making an argument based on a shared human experience of faith. And because both of those claims can mutually be true, there is no real disagreement or exploration of their arguments. I would quite enjoy seeing another debate between Andy Bannister and another theologian who has a different view of Islam, who can engage him on the theory he espoused about the origins of Islam as an Abrahamic religion, because that is an interesting, strong claim that deserves a deeper discussion and an interlocutor who can challenge it from a theological and historical perspective.
Why is this always a debate? The answer is no. Modern Judaism and Islam deny the Trinity. If you don't follow the triune God then you aren't worshiping the same God as Christians.
There was/is also debate around the trinity among Christian denominations. The Bible isn't clear. There are passages where Jesus himself is differentiating himself: Jesus spoke to a man who had called him ‘good,’ asking him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.’ (Luke 18:19) At least as reported by the authors of the New Testament.
@@carpediem5232 Because as a human being, having himself human nature too, he was trying to say that no man is good, setting himswlf first as an example.
@@benjy288 No it's not. Read the context. A man asks Jesus how to achieve eternal life. And Jesus differentiates between himself and god by not accepting being addressed as good as only god is truly good and then refers to the commandments given by god to achieve what the man is asking. There are other verses that are ambiguous at best. And how was the issue settled for mainstream Christianity? Not really through intellectual debate, but through pogroms, where for example the Arians, that didn't conform to the doctrine of the trinity decided on at the council of Nicea, were killed or forced to convert. More Christians were killed in internal conflicts about the trinity that in any than there were killed under Roman pagan emperors.
The archbishop is a model for a great Christian, a man of faith, love and understanding. The other guy is so confused, he is running circles around himself. , Jews dont believe in Jesus, are they worshiping a different God than christians? According to his logic Chrsitians believe in a different God than the one on the old testament. What a joke of an argument
I am speaking before watching the video, but even scripture aside, they are not worshipping the same God even on a purely philosophical level. I have lived in Turkey 11 years. God for Sunni Muslims compared to God for Christians is very much ABOVE while his people are below. And it remains that way for all time. God for Christians is ABOVE, but through that revealed in scripture Chrisitians can move closer toward God and have a more personal relationship with God. There is a sense that God allows some of himself to be known and understood, and that this is even encouraged. In Islam the opposite is true.
You're conclusions about what Islam teaches about the relationship between God and His Creation is incorrect. Yes, He is Above His Creation and distinct from it, not within it. But, that doesn't mean we cannot have a close and personal relationship with Him. As a matter of fact, that's the purpose of worship and devotion itself in Islam. Yes, there are laws, but there is also spirituality and nearness to God through those Divine Laws. Hope that clarifies that for you.
@cathy newton Hi Cathy. It doesn't. It affirms that which is correct and corrects that which needed correction after man had altered or corrupted it. Hope that clarifies that. I also have a question regarding continuity, if I may; why does the New Testament contradict the Old Testament with the introduction of a Triunion God? That being something completely foreign and unknown to Jews (including Jesus himself) and rejected by them, even today.
@@AbooLayth The NT doesn't contradict the OT, in fact the NT fulfills the prophecies and promises of the OT, and regarding the nature of God, what Jesus did was reveal that to us, he was necessary to do so, and according to that revelation we build our understanding. Islam does the opposite and builds an understanding first and then views reality according to that presupposition, so their idea of God is limited by the boundaries of the human mind, that's why they reject complex ideas like the Trinity and favor a much simpler concept.
@@hullie7529 With all due respect, you can introduce any belief system, however eccentric and ridiculous, and call it a "complex idea". That's not an explanation. The fact of the matter is, your Trinitarian understanding of God is foreign to the OT, and even to NT, and is as far from what Abrahamic teachings are of God as the Hindu Trinity is. If you feel I'm being unfair, go and ask an Orthodox Jew what they think of the Trinity and how it fits in to their concept of Monotheism. Convince them of your "complex idea" using the OT. Let me know how that goes. Thankfully, Islam teaches an unambiguous, uncompromisingly strict Monotheism as it relates to God; His is One, undevisible, distinct from His creation - He is Uniquely One, the Self-Sufficient, He is not born nor does He give birth, and there is nothing in creation that can be compared or likened to Him.
Except there are still ‘Christians’ (Unitarians etc) that dispute this idea in the Bible, preferring to see Jesus as a ‘prophet’ and not a ‘begotten’ son,,,, and of course the Jews would never agree to this either. (Or do Christians not follow the same God as the Jews) 😬😬😬 Nice try at a easy answer, but unfortunately a theological fail.
@@misswarda78 All theology fails because it is not based on reality. If people given access to divine inspiration cant decide what it means then either God is an incompetent fool who cannot send a straight forward message or God does not exist.
@@scarfhs1 - Or people do not wish to believe in the true and living God. Do you honestly believe that because some people reject God's truth makes God not real??
@@misswarda78 - Anyone can take on the label of "Christian" but does that make it true? Unitarians are just another false, manmade form of "Christianity." btw - I am a Jew. I follow Jesus Christ, the Son of God, my Messiah. God keeps His promises.
So much here addressing believers rather than the belief. Are these men discussing Islam and Christianity (beliefs) or Muslims and Christians (persons)? We are all more or less conscious and consistent with our belief. There are people who CLAIM to be Muslim and others who claim to be Christian; both beliefs have extremely virtuous people who claim to believe and both have evil people who claim to believe. Nothing more or less can be said of atheists. Discussing “believers” who may or may not be aware of their belief will get us nowhere. The belief systems are what need to be discussed.
@@cTRudeboy Your logic is flawed. If I believe your dad had another son other than you, whilst he never did, that doesn't all of the sudden mean that there are two seperate people in question. Rather, you'd say to me, "Ziyad, you are mistaken about your assumption about my dad." Likewise, your belief about God having a literal begotten son, is wrong according to Islam and even according to many Scholars of the Bible. Furthermore, the understanding that God is some sort of Triunion being is also foreign to Islam, and even Judaism, unknown to the Prophets of old and even Jesus (peace be upon them all) himself. So, your insistence upon the fact that the God of Bible "did" have a son is an assertion that, in it and of itself, is viciously contested. So, in short, we believe that the God you seek is the same God; the Lord of Adam, Abraham, Isac, Ismael, Moses, David, John, Jesus, and Muhammad (peace be upon them all) - and of all Creation itself.
I like how William Lane Craig puts it as something like this: It's like when you go to a party, and you see your uncle standing at the bar drinking from a fancy glass. Your brother thinks that the man is drinking martini, but he is actually drinking water. So the God Person is the same but the concept of God is different. Also Christians in Indonesia often refer to God as Allah as well.
The word "allah" is not a name. It is just a noun representing an idea. It is the word that represents the "god" concept in many, many languages around the world. It is not the phonemes that are important but the concept they represent. Just as on the printed page, it is not the ink that is important, nor even the words, but the ideas behind the words. I have no difficulty when conversing with a Muslim, referring to the biblical God as Allah, and Jesus is His son. I let them know that Jesus is the true, living Allah, Creator of the heavens and the Earth and all that is in them, and not just some purely human prophet. I also let them know that the Allah of Mohammad is a false allah. Wherever you use "God" in a sentence, you can substitute "Allah" and that does not necessarily mean you are referring to the Muslim God. ----------------------------------------------- I completely failed to understand your "bar" metaphor.
@@rubiks6 The phrase "Allah of Mohammad" and the "Allah that is Jesus" may be interpreted differently, but I believe in the case of the Muslim vs Christian Allah, we are referring to the same God. The bar metaphor is telling how one may have different perception of the same being, and therefore having different concept of the same being.
@@hatamsu - The Allah of the Bible and the Allah of the Quran are very different in nature and character. The god of the Quran is a false, man-made god. It is arrogant and remote. The God of the Bible is humble and so interested in His people He actually became one of us. The God of the Bible gave His life to save us. The god of Muhammad would never give his life for anyone. The god of Muhammad is worthless.
@@rubiks6 Jews don't believe that God would sacrifice himself for anyone either, yet you (presumably) believe the Jewish and Christian God to be one and the same. Also, I'm pretty sure that the God of Islam does take interest in his people.
@@rubiks6 'I let them know that Jesus is the true, living Allah, Creator of the heavens and the Earth and all that is in them, and not just some purely human prophet.' You do know that Muslims regard Jesus as the Messiah, and not just a human prophet? Do you know which of the three Abrahamic religions does regard Jesus as merely human? Judaism, whose God you're happy to recognise as being the same as the Christian God.
Jews and Muslims worship the same God. Christians also worship the same God but they associate other deities with the same God. Jews and Muslims both would consider Christian understanding of God as idolatry. All of them try their best to stick to the pure abrahamic faith ie monotheism (peace be upon prophet Abraham). Christian understanding of monotheism is not solid monotheism you would find in ot or quran. It attempts to render a monotheistic model but clearly on fundamental level definition of monotheism is totally different in Christianity.
"theology of the majority"? Wikipedia - "The Migration to Abyssinia, also known as the First Hegira, was an episode in the early history of Islam, where Muhammad's first followers fled from the persecution of the ruling Quraysh tribe of Mecca. They sought refuge in the Christian Kingdom of Aksum, present-day Ethiopia and Eritrea, in 9 BH or 7 BH. Wikipedia Start date: 613 AD Location: Hejaz Result: Some of the Muslims settling in Abyssinia Participants: A group of twelve men and four women" The King (Negas) became Muslim. Small groups of Muslims traded around the world and spread Islam to eg: Indonesia and Philippines, China and India. Alan partridge is wrong again.
Thanks for the discussion. Thought Andy was great and made some solid arguments, on the other hand, I was disappointed that the archbishop said his argument came purely from personal experiences with Muslims rather than from a theological one, as I think we should be able to answer this question by looking it at the different claims the bible and quran make about God. A good discussion regardless.
Indeed. We cannot trust men and especially ourselves. Trust God. That means trusting the Word of God. Coming to a conclusion based on you own feelings, experience and reasoning will almost certainly lead you astray. I trust the Bible even when I do not like what it is saying. My feelings are irrelevant. God's Word is the truth.
@17:07 That exactly how I always see it. I consider Muslim and Christian God to be different because of the difference in character. In fact, Islam denys one of the must fundamental believes we have as Christians; that is the death and resurrection of Jesus. There is no hope for us "as the Bible says" if Jesus didn't die. Because then our sins will still remain For the resurrection also, if Jesus did not resurrect then what hope do we have in the afterlife?
@cathy newton You have no doctrine worth the name. Like Atheists you believe we "cease to exist" after death. You believe supposedly in heaven but not in Hell-fire.
I feel like a point that should have been covered is, as Christians believe that Jesus is God like the bible says. Any person (This includes Muslim's, Jews, etc.) not believing this does not then believe in the same God. I mean if God says that Jesus is his son and God himself, then he has to be God. To me, it doesn't get any simpler than this. Further, while Jesus does tell us to live differently, and by that others will see. He also goes out saying what is wrong/right to others (of course do this in a loving way). The disciples also do this when they go about preaching the gospel.
Look, this couldn't be easier. You walk up to a Muslim and ask "Does God the Father have an eternally-begotten Son?" The answer will, no doubt, be "Banish the thought." We do not worship the same God. Obviously.
God is the most gracious ever merciful, this is the verse at the beginning of every chapter in the Holy Qur'an. It is stated at least 114 times (as there are 114 chapters), which proves that God is a loving God in Islam
Short answer No! MANY TRY to claim it is but #1 Bible clearly in detail states #1 recognition of a false prophet or god is "Deceit " Allah and Mohammad claim deceitfulness in Quran. Ywah is loving and Quran specifically goes out of its way to not use thus word in any manor that relates the 2 together. Convert threw kindness and education with the Bible but Mohammad and Allah are good forcing the world to submit by any means necessary.. Allah allows gas lighting and any sin that advances Islam is ok =Tyquyya permits pegan worship if it advances islam in some way
Archbishop says Muslims and Christians worship One God based solely on his personal experiences. What about the historical and archeological evidences of Christ, God became man through Christ with the historical and Apostolic evidences we have access to? Archbishop does not seem to respond to the question: Do Muslims and Christians worship the SAME God? I think Archbishop needs to separate the attributes of Christian God and the Muslim God and has not actually answered the question. It is nothing to do with being judgemental either. Am afraid Andy answered the question better than the Archbishop who seems to respond more from personal experiences.
@@billcross8381 just like the Archbishop, a Muslim scholar too can add value to the topic being discussed. You can't just throw in a secular scholarship, having expertise in Islamic studies, and get away with a hangover like this. Such types of patchworks need to be avoided in discussions of import. One at least needs to represent all the parties that are relevant to the topic and then have a discussion, irrespective of what each party has to say - otherwise it would remain partisan approach. An ideal mix in this case would have been, a Muslim scholar, 2 secular university scholars (both from Islamic and Christianity) and a Christian scholar. I hope I have been able to get my point across!
In life we always have to consider who we'd be inclined to share a couple of pints with, well - both of these gentlemen qualify, i my humble opinion. But - Andy has won my heart here: The more you study the Qur'an, Bukhari and Muslim, the more you develop the idea that the author of the Qur'an, subsequently Allah, were either ignorant of core Christian doctrines or wilfully and cleverly set out to ruin them. Kind regards Kim
The pure, core message of The Christian Gospels promotes universal altruism and peace, whereas fundamental Islam is very insular and aggressive and does not tolerate " Infidels " or non- Muslims. To illustrate the vast difference between both religions ( and their respective deities ) , only two questions need to be asked. 1. Why are the true fundamental Islamic countries not truly multi-cultural, with numerous churches and synagogues as well as mosques ? 2. What are the penalties ( yes, there are penalties ) for non-compliance and non-conversion to Islam, and also for leaving Islam. End Of. Simples.
You can see from both men again that religion takes from human beings the good and love we do and put a God on it. In that case Yes they both worship the same God but not through their holy books cos they contradict each other
The Christian God is Love? Lets examine the facts: God creates Adam 'perfectly' but then changes the rules and gives him the propensity to sin, which he then does. When Adam sins he is not 'forgiven' with love, he is thrown out, even though God created Adam with the ability to sin This sin is 'inherited' by all Adams descendants, none of which had anything to do with eating the fruit. Everyone is 'fallen', and the 'wages of sin is death', so for God there is no difference between genocide and a child stealing toffee God refuses to forgive anyone and demands blood payment and by this standard he is less loving then almost everyone you know Blood payment comes in the form of sending his God-Son for payment, again, he can't just forgive with love The God-Son is brutally tortured and killed in a gruesome Aztec style human sacrifice ritual (where's the love now?) For God, no actual sacrifice has been made, its like taking 5 bucks from one pocket and putting it in the other pocket Only a handful of people saw the resurrection, the Gospels give contradictory accounts, nobody really knows what happened God sends the Holy Spirit to the Gospel writers, who end up composing a contradictory mish-mash of Hellenic and Jewish ideas God expects everyone to believe that Christ came, was killed and resurrected even though this is not knowable by 99.9999% If you don't believe this happened then you are condemned to Hell, there is no forgiveness and there is nothing you can do You won't understand unless you have been 'convicted by the Holy Spirit', the same spirit who couldn't keep the Bible preserved Contrast with the Muslim God who created you to sin, expects you to sin, and when you sin, as long as you ask for forgiveness with sincerity, he forgives you and that's the end of it - no gruesome human sacrifice necessary. Which God is more 'loving'?
Unfortunately, just as the Muslim understanding of God/Allah was misrepresented in the podcast, you have also misrepresented my understanding of God as revealed in Jesus and the Bible. It seems to me that those followers of Jesus, which include Muslims, who focus more on their Scriptures, and less on cultural forms of Christianity and Islam as propagated by preachers and imams, are very close to one another in their understanding. "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away... For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." 1 Corinthians 13:9-12 (ESV) My knowledge of God is incomplete and in process. I know in part, and my Muslim friend may know a different part. We do not need to compete to know God more fully.
Christianity is not a concept, it’s accepting the life of God through the personality of the Lord Jesus! Sadly saying; if wearing Christ becomes a JOB, that is a disaster!!
Andy seems to take his opinion of Islam from the Hadith. However The Quran says: It is complete and needs no further additions. Verse (45:6) The analysis above refers to the sixth verse of chapter 45 (sūrat l-jāthiyah): These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe? Also Verse (2:256). 2 (sūrat l-baqarah): There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion.
No. allah doesn't care about sin in this world (if he is holy why doesn't he care about sin???), does not love us and therefore does nothing for us with regard to sin and the fallen world vis-a-vis redemption. Only God the Father so loved the world that He sent His Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16). Ergo, the God of the Holy Bible is not the god of the quran. Be it theology, attributes etc. You have never read the Holy Bible to understand who God really is, so you think it's the same. The God of the Holy Bible is almighty and is the truth. He does not deceive nor tell lies. Instead, the quran says allah is the best of deceivers and even deceived people by making them think that Jesus was crucified when it was an allah-provided stun body double who was crucified instead. Lies and deception are used when one doesn't have actual power. You have been deceived by the god of this world! The God of the Holy Bible does not need to deceive and lie for He is God Almighty!
The ˹true˺ servants of the Most Compassionate are those who walk on the earth humbly, and when the foolish address them ˹improperly˺, they only respond with peace. 25 : 63
Before I watch, I would say yes, even though I'm terribly sceptical of Islam, and think it today embodies the opposite of Christianity in many ways. But there is only one source, one creator. Even Buddhists relate to the same Truth to the extent that they do. We are all mistaken in many ways in our image of God, and Christians tend to view God as an object out there, which is so much more wrong than most other differences, but in the end as long as it brings one to gratitude for everything, that is more important. If we say there is some bar one must get over in understanding before one is worshiping God, we are definitely cutting ourselves off as well. I can't read the Gospel, without coming away with this understanding, that faith is something ineffable, not a matter of what dogmas one affirms, even though the dogmas are important to the extent they bring people to faith. Ultimately being thankful for existence, is worship of God. Of course Islam is completely weird, and leads people away from faith. But God is God, and I've seen examples of people being really thankful for the creator and the opposite, withing both Islam and Christianity. It will be fun to see what I say after listening.
My conception of this, after the discussion, is still the same. Yes, Muslims worship the same God. However, that is something completely different from talking about whether or not the Quran describes that God in any good way for them, which is something completely different. Muslim != Islam != Quran. Muslims do come together to worship the one source of all in thankfulness. I believe in spite of their official tradition and Quran. Though not all of them do that, and even though their tradition and book works against them in many ways. I would actually extend this to Atheists as well. To the extent that an Atheist is thankful for experience, and lives in Truth and love, that is worship. It is the heart that worships, not the intellect, although it certainly help when the intellect collaborates. Yes, there is a lot lacking, as there is in all of us. I see Christianity as a system that helps bring more people to this thankfulness, because their intelligence stops getting in the way all the time. The good news is that the infinite, the ultimate ideal, that all traditions have been striving towards, is the one that lowers Himself to what we humans by default see as dishonor, loosing, etc. It makes sense of all the religions. The ideal is that which accepts loosing and dishonor, which actually mysteriously is winning and honor. Most people in most religions strive towards this, but have not seen it revealed to the extend Christians have.
Okay. Let's say Muslim and Christians worship and believe the same God. Which of these two religion is acceptable to God by their worship and by their beliefs? Because these two religion is very different in many ways and teachings.
According muslims all the prophets taught islam including jesus, it is only the political leaders and churshes changed it to suite their need. Muslims claim Mohammed came to restore the true message which is worship 1 God alone and follow the law.
Another easy question that religious believers cannot wrap their heads around. Judging by the comments section; most people are talking about their opinion, or their theology, or their religious practices. Those things are not really relevant though. Obviously the 3 "Abrahamic" religions; Judaism, Christianity, & Islam, are different religions and different theologies. But the question being asked here is if they worship the same god [the same being]. The answer is easy. Yes.
@Desire Of All Nations Since when does logic have anything to do with religious belief? Furthermore; what you are describing is theology, which I mentioned. If theological differences was the issue, then not all Christians worship the same god.....let alone Jews and Muslims. Hell, the Sunni & Shia Muslims have differences. The question itself only makes sense if it's in regards to the beliefs being directed towards the same being, not their interpretations. The fact is that they are referred to as the "Abrahamic" religions because they all claim to worship the same god. Jesus [if there was such a person] was religiously Jewish. The core belief of Christianity is that Jesus was the messiah. They even invent secret messages in Jewish scripture in order to pretend the "old testament" predicts Jesus. The revelation of Muhammad is said to come from the archangel Gabriel, archangels are specific to Judaism. Islam even addresses the Jesus issue; they just recognize him as a prophet of god. Not that he was the "son" of god or god incarnate as Christians do.
Bannister engages in a lot of sleight of hand when utilising scholarship, both biblical and Quranic. And he makes false analogies again and again. On the former, his depiction of Islam early on as a religion of works is no different from similar caricatures of Judaism at the hands of Christians not a few decades ago, which received a devastating refutation in 1977 in Sanders' "Paul and Palestinian Judaism." His claim that God is not loving in Islam is also a lie. Islamic sources, Qur'an in particular, present God as loving, merciful, forgiving and caring again and again. It is true, this is restricted to the believers. God does punish the wrong doers and those who reject Him and His teachings. But towards those who accept faith, God has a loving and intimately affectionate relationship, constantly hearing and responding, both to the spoken words and what is kept in the heart. Bannister's claim about not being able to follow the law and how this is a problem completely distorts the Jewish take, which is explained in detail by EP Sanders. Ultimately, to say Muslims worship a different God backfires on Christians because the Unitarian God is the common factor between Judaism and Islam. You need to explain via argument how Judaism and Christianity still share the same God when Islam is excluded. Rejection of the Islamic God should also entail a rejection of the Jewish God, leaving Christianity the odd one out. Both Islam and Judiasm share the same conception of God and both are strongly grounded in the law. They have the same conception of "sin management" via atonements, and both agree upon God's grace as the saving factor, although the law and good deeds also playing a prominent part. The only difference I can think of is a much softer image of God in the Qur'an than in the Jewish bible. He is more gentler in the former. Be that as it may, given the aforementioned ground of commonalities, Christianity becomes the odd one out. It is not surprising that while the rabbis had reservations about Christians worshipping the God of Judaism, they usually did not have similar reservations about Muslims worshipping the same God as Jews. In short you cannot have it both ways. If Islam is excluded, Judaism should logically be excluded also.
I am very disappointed in the Bishop. He needs to study the two religions more. Also, he is from Nigeria and from understanding Boko Haram is from Northern Nigeria and the Christians being killed and churches burnt, yet, the Bishop claimed that Muslims and Christians respect each other.
Andy is insufferable and Josiah deserves a medal for getting through that, though I only made it about two-thirds of the way through. The title of the discussion was unsurprisingly changed to: is Christianity and Islam the same religion? I'm not sure why it watched anyway as a nonreligious person. There is only one God - for everyone.
Someone mentioned one of Allah's 99 names is: the loving; let's do the math - 1/99 or 0,010101 or 1,0101 % Imagine walking into a bar with a big sign over the door: whiskey! But inside, all they serve is downwatered liquor thin enough to be sold as plain H2O. Wouldn't you be inclined to address the proprietor of that place concerning his idea of whiskey? What you want in life is a 100 % clean liquor: Jesus Christ; it's for free and you don't have to drink all day: one sip's gonna knock you clean out. Kind regards Kim
Watching this - has convinced me, that the middle class yuppie Church, has absolutely no ideological resources, to deal with militant Islam, and Islamisation. It is sad, both speakers came across as clueless.
I think we should take about the Christian majority secular countries committing genocides with drone attacks killing millions of innocent ppl. Cuz their atrocities are far greater than ppl simply defending their country from foreign attacks
Yes, but with an asterisk. Its the same general idea and foundation, however where they differ is much like how Greeks and Romans had similar but different gods, and how they also adopted Egyptian gods and viewed then as there own good with different names. Better yet how Christians made the Jewish god their god and changed his attributes and character. That's how mythology works, syncretism, adoption, absorption, etc.
@@whatwecalllife7034 - Learn to write and learn to think. I want to know how you think the God of the New Testament is different from the God of the Old Testament. I don't see it. I'm Jewish.
36 min The Archbishop is right Andy isn't being fair and I'd add, honest. You bring the Archbishop on to defend the position where a Muslim should be. "Where is love"? Asks the Archbishop. Where is truth, ask I.
It’s no surprise the Church of England is in the current spiritual state as this archbishop, a high position in the church believes the Christian and Moslem God are the same. He argues this incoherently having chosen to defend the Moslems. Could a Moslem not be found for the debate or is he actually a Moslem at heart but infiltrated the church with an ulterior agenda.
I thought that Muslims and Christians are monotheists...? Or maybe they are just pretending, claiming that 'the other' worships another god. Well, the boss must be the only one... And God must also be only one. Well done, Archbishop! One God is understood differently! Let's love the One God in our different ways. Let's love Him in a Christian way and in a Muslim way, and in a Sanathana Dharma (Hindu) way. Why shouldn't different children love their parent in their own ways? Is a love of Christian a better way of the love expressed by a Hindu or a Muslim? I'd claim it is not seen so by the Father. Religion is not a competition. From God's perspective, if someone loves Him in a Zoroastrian (100k followers) or one follows sanatana dharma (1bn followers), love is love. Why cannot we just accept one another and love our Father in our own way? Because some of us are proud and want to follow 'true' religion and want others to be wrong and go to hell. This is a psychotic disorder when one cannot be happy unless the other person goes to hell.... Praise be to Lord, salam aleikum namaskar!
I wonder if Andy is reading the same Quran as I do cuz gosh I disagree with him almost all things. First of all he need to tells us where I Quran Allah reject to be a God of love? When I read Quran almost on every page I find this; “Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (4:106, 39:53, 5:74, 33:5, 49:5 and many other places) “And He is the All-Forgiving, All-Loving” (85:14) As for Allah hating sinners, your Bible also says: “The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. Psalm 5:5 Plus we have stories of God destroy corrupt civilisations with flood, meteors etc so how is Quran different from your Bible in this regard?
So the bishop doesn't think doctrine is important? I'm pretty certain those first century Christians thought Jesus being God was important, that's doctrine. And if you don't believe that Jesus is and always has been God how can you be worshipping the same God Christians worship? Hindus don't worship the God of Christians, nor do Muslims, because Muslims have a god that is one, not three persons. The Muslim God is arbitrary, no Muslim knows for certain their destiny. There's a story about a man who has murdered 99 people, but wants to avoid Hell. He asks a cleric if he can be forgiven, and when told he cannot promptly kills the cleric. He asks a scholar, who tells him to go to a city, where they will be able to tell him. So he sets off on his journey to this city, but on the way dies. The angels dispute over his destiny and it is decided that if he is nearer to the city than where he has come from he will be forgiven. So Allah shrinks the earth between this murderer and the city. Does this sound like a righteous God to you? There's another group that do not accept Jesus' deity, the Jews. If the Muslim doesn't worship the same God as Christians because they don't accept Jesus deity, what about the Jews, they say Jesus isn't God. It therefore follows that Jews no longer worship the God Abraham worshipped.
Of course there is only one God, but how we see God will depend on how we conceptualise God, bearing in mind that the God we conceptualise is never God. A Muslim’s God will definitely be different from the God of a Christian, but then the God of a fundamentalist Christian will be different from the God of an Anglican or Catholic. These are different views of God, which yield different experiences of God, but these differing views do not generate different Gods. God remains the same despite our different views of God.
Andy Bannister claims to know about Islam but to omit ANY mention of the 99names ofAllah INCLUDING THE many names of compassion, mercy and love shows that he doesn’t really have a clue what he is talking about. He takes a classical evangelical position of NEEDING to distinguish the ‘God’s of Abraham. At the end of the day all supposedly monotheistic. His approach is what maintains war, hatred and misunderstanding, just so he can be ‘right’ In his ideological arrogance. He is as bad as the radical extremists in Islam who distort and present Islam for their own agenda. His book should be shredded up and used as toilet roll.
Jesus is lord and there is no other God. Islam deny Jesus been crucified and if you take that away there is no Christianity. This is one the core reason we don’t believe in the same God. As one of the church leader it’s leader responsibility to bring people to Christ, Jesus said in Mark 16:15-16. And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. May the Holy Spirit lead you to the truth
Yes, but it doesn't matter how good, charitable etc P Singer or any other atheist is according to Christians and Muslims if you don't believe what they do and follow their particular book you are bound for everlasting torment.
Islam The Beautiful Religion ( Be Just ) Quran 5:8 '' O you who believe! stand out firmly for God, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the > HATRED OF OTHERS TO YOU < make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear God. For God is well-acquainted with all that you do. '' Quran 4:58 '' Indeed, God commands you to render trusts to whom they are due and when you judge between people to judge with justice. Excellent is that which God instructs you. Indeed, God is ever Hearing and Seeing.'' ( God's The Rules Of War ) Quran 2:190 '' Fight in the way of God > THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU < but do not transgress. Indeed. God does not like transgressors. '' Quran 2 :193 '' And fight them on until there is no more oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. '' Quran 4:90 ''.........So if they withdraw from you and cease their hostility and offer you peace, in that case Allah has not granted you permission to fight against them.'' Quran 8:61 ''And if they seek peace, then you also seek it, and put your trust in God. He is the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.'' ( Stand Up For Justice ) Quran 4 :135 '' Ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against > YOURSELVES < or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.'' ( Who Are The Good Human Beings? ) Quran 2.177 '' Righteousness is "NOT" that you turn your faces ( in worship ) toward the east or the west but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in God, the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth,> IN SPITE OF LOVE FOR IT,< to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for > freeing slaves < [and who] establishes prayer and gives charity; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous. '' ( Freedom To Believe And To Reject ) Quran 2:256 '' Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error '' Quran 10:99 '' And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed > all of them entirely < Then would you compel the people in order that they become believers? '' ( Tolerance For Other Religions ) Quran 109: 1- 6 Say,"O disbelievers, I do not worship what you worship. Nor are you worshipers of what I worship. Nor will I be a worshiper of what you worship. Nor will you be worshipers of what I worship. For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." ( Protection for Idol Worshiper ) Quran 9:6 "And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are people who do not know. " Quran16:125 “Call people to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good teaching, and argue with them in the most courteous way” Quran7:199 “Be tolerant....” ( Friendship With Non Muslims ) Quran 60:8 '' God does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, God loves those who act justly. '' ( Do Christians And Jews and "OTHER" non-Muslims go to Heaven? ) Quran 2:62 '' Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,-> ANY { On Judgement Day } ( According to the Quran Christians and Jews worship TRUE God ) (Quran 3:113-114) '' Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book ( Christians and Jews ) are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.'' Note: According to the Quran that Jesus is not God nevertheless Christians still worship one '' TRUE '' God. ( > Allah < Is The Protector Of Monasteries, Churches, Synagogues And The Mosques ) Quran 22:40 [They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might. ( Why Are There So Many Different Religions In The World ? ) Quran 5 48 ''...... If God wanted He could have made all of you a > single nation < But He willed otherwise in order to test you in what He has given you;(scriptures) therefore try to excel one another in good deeds. Ultimately you all shall return to God; then He will show you the truth of those matters in which you > DISPUTE submission < to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (Salvation)'' My explanation of above verse Islam mean > submission < to God ( The above verse saying is that God will not accept a religion from the > MUSLIM < and the Non-Muslims but total > submission < to God.) Question: How Can Muslim And the > Non-Muslim < > submit < to the God ? Answer: Be kind to other human beings and Do not lie, Do not steal, Do not cheat, Do not hurt others, Do not be prideful and Do the charity work. ( God Allow Muslims To Marry And Eat Food From the Christian And Jew And Vice Versa ) Quran 5;5 ''This day [all] good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture ( Christian and Jew) is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And [lawful in marriage are] chaste women from among the believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture ( Christian and Jew) before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking [secret] lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.'' ( Kindness Toward Atheists / > APOSTATE < ) Quran 60:8 '' As for such [ of the unbelievers ( atheist) ] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, > Allah < does not forbid you to show them > kindness < and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, Allah loves those who act equitably. '' ( All The Terrorists / Killers Will Enter Hell Fire ) Quran 5:32 "......Whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely......" ( Turned Your Enemies Into Your Awesome Friends ) Quran 41:34 "The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one which is better, then lo! he, between whom and thee there was enmity (will become) as though he was a bosom friend." ( The Husband and The Wife Are > Protecting Friends < One Of Another ) Quran 9:71 ''And the believers, men and women, are > Protecting Friends < one of another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey God and His messenger. As for these, God will have mercy on them. Lo! God is Mighty, Wise.'' Quran16:97 “To whoever, male or female, does good deeds and has faith, We shall give a good life and reward them according to the best of their actions. Quran 30:21 “And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquility in them; and He placed between you > affection and mercy { Love } The Prophet Muhammad said, “The best among you is the best to his wife” ( Human Are One Big family ) Quran 49:13 " O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)." ( All The Racist People Will Enter Hellfire ) Quran 30:22 "And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your languages and your colors. Indeed in that are signs for those of knowledge." My conclusion: The > BASIC < message of God to the human is that '' YOU '' believe in God and be kind to other human beings / > animals < and in the > RETURNED < God will > REWARD < you with a new life in Paradise. * The Quran ONLY guides you how to become a good human being " Nothing Else ". * You are a good human being or a bad human being that is YOUR choice. * No one can force you to become a good human being. * You MUST work HARD to become a good human being. * Why should '' YOU '' do good deeds and avoid bad deeds? * Do Good - it's for You. Do Bad - It's against you. * '' YOUR '' life is a TEST from God that you will choose to do either Good or Bad. * Find the excuse to help others and forgive others NOT the other way around. * '' YOUR '' final destination is either Hell or Heaven. * So work HARD toward choice of YOUR destination. Quran 17:7 If you do good, you will do so for your own good. And if you do evil, it will be to your own loss.
You claim the Quran is teaching everyone to be good but isn't Mohammed supposed to be favoured by Allah and the example everyone should follow? If so that would be contradictory because Mohammed had slaves, traded sex slaves, killed people, broke promises and had sex with 9 year old children. That is the very opposite of being good. You also said that if you believe in Allah and the last day etc that you will get to heaven. Yet weren't there 2 specific people that Allah said would get to heaven? 1 being Mohammed and the other I think being his father in law. Didn't the father in law say that Allah was such a deceiver that he would not believe he was actually going to heaven even if he had one foot already there, despite being told by Mohammed that he was assured a place?
We don't believe in the same God. You believe Jesus is the begotten Son of God who is also God reincarnated. We believe in one Almighty God that Is unimaginable in lower and mercy he begets not nor is he begotten. HE IS THE WHO CREATED ETERNITY ITSELF AND REALITY!!!
We have one God said the Archbishop not two. We have one God because the God of Islam like the ancient gods before him were either demons or didn't exist. We need to show our Muslim friends that Mohamad was a false prophet and therefore his god was a demonic spirit.
Christians believe God is a man, so how would it be the same. Unless you mean the initial Christians and what the disciples believed..their theism was worship to just One God.
Archbishop stop saying u cannot judge..read Mathew 7:1-3 and John 7:24 an also the Bible says ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free, so come out plain stop Joining light with darkness
no..... Christians worship prophet Esa ale salam... who Christians call Jesus and father ghost 3in1..... Muslims worship the one who created Esa ale salam Jesus and everything .. In his own words... Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.
... let's do the math, David - 1/99 or 0,010101 = 1,0101 % Imagine walking into a bar with a big sign over the door: whiskey! But inside, all they serve is downwatered liquor thin enough to be sold as plain H2O. Wouldn't you be inclined to address the proprietor of that place concerning his idea of whiskey? What you want in life is a 100 % pure liquor: Jesus Christ; it's for free and you don't have to drink all day: one sip's gonna knock you clean out. Kind regards Kim
@@kimjensen8207 '... let's do the math, David - 1/99 or 0,010101.' That isn't necessarily the way that attributes of persons and things work. Also, the God of Christianity is not pure love, at least according to pastor and theologian Tim Keller.
@@davidparry5310 ... correct, David - there are passages in the old testament where only fruit trees are left alive; every else breathing, men, women and children - even the animals, are dead And one of the final scenes of our human experience will be 'the wrath of the lamb'; even CS Lewis found this perspective somewhat discomforting if not down right terrifying. Love must include justice, I suppose, but as a Christian, I'll have to see myself exempt from a crucifixion I rightly deserved; someone stepped in my place, and that's the gospel: love is not a trivial phenomenon; it's quite the contrary. Kind regards Kim
Andy,,,,, also Talking about Nabeel Qureishi’s experience,,, is also fallacious. A third option is to ignore the Hadith as many millions of Muslims now do. (Quran only) muslims. Quranists believe that the Quran is the sole source of religious law and guidance in Islam and reject the authority of sources outside of the Quran like Hadith and Sunnah. And, citing Quranic verses like 6:38, 45:6 and 6:112-116, they believe that the Quran is clear, complete, and that it can be fully understood without recourse to the hadith and sunna.[2] Therefore, they use the Quran itself to interpret the Quran:[10] The so called history of Muhammad is ‘chinese whispers’ and has no historical credibility whatsoever BUT Andy you miss the main point,,, that the Quran never wanted Anyone to ‘follow’ or worship Muhammad. His history is basically irrelevant. As the Quran said he was just a messenger,,,,, and ONLY GOD should be worshipped. (Hence correcting the distortion of the Christians with Jesus). But so many Muslims have repeated the Christian mistake of Idolising Jesus by idolising Mohammed. But from a Christian perspective you can’t really grasp this,,,, just like the millions of western writers who even called Muslims ‘muhammadens’ until about the middle of the 20th century. Even though you know Muhammad was only a prophet you still base your opinion of Islam on the so called distorted history of him???? You are no better than Isis if you think Islam should be judged on 9th century warlords??? More intellectual dishonesty.
The answer is "no" If "Allah" is just meaning the generic "The God" then we can say "yes". However, when a Muslim references "Allah", there are specific inferences being made that make THAT God a different God then the God of the Bible.
Short answer: no
Long answer: noooooooooo.
Yeah,but the truth is yes along with another religion back then,but now.NAH
@cathy newton what your religion?
This is the first time I have seen a muslim wearing a priest clothes.
Well done Andy, keep up your good work, God bless you.
The logical Law of Identity applies here. The fundamental ontological, personal, ethical, etc. concepts of the God of Islam and the God of Christianity describe two distinctly different beings; and this by definition.
The One is many and the many are One. Logic is not the way to approach this. As st. Maximos said:
St Maximus the Confessor (On the Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ):
We are speechless before the sublime teaching about the Logos, for he cannot be expressed in words or conceived in thought. Although he is beyond being and nothing can participate in him in any way, nor is he any of the totality of things that can be known in relation to other things, nevertheless we affirm that the one Logos is many logoi and the many logoi are One. Because the One goes forth in goodness into individual being, creating and preserving them, the One is many. Moreover, the many are directed toward the One and are providentially guided in that direction. It is as though they were drawn to an all-powerful center that had built into it the beginnings of the lines that go out from it and that gathers them all together. In this way the many are one.
@@dionysis_ I assume you would apply logical laws to your disagreement with me (specifically the Law of Non-Contradiction which says that both my view and your view cannot both be true because they make mutually exclusive claimes). You are clearly assuming the Law of Non-Contradiction (the LNC) in order to say that my view is mistaken... yet, the LNC is predicated on the Law of Identity... which was my initial assertion in the discussion... and which you reject. Why think the LNC applies to meaningful reasoning about God but that it doesn't apply to God himself? Further, in rejecting the Law of Identity, you have by default also rejected the LNC, so you have defeated your own grounds on which to say my statement, let alone any other statement about anything whatsoever is either true or false. You have rejected meaning itself. In such case your reply and St. Maximus' statement would not only be wrong, but would also be utterly meaningless.
Do you disagree that your consept of God is wrong and meaningless? Careful, because if you do then you have utilized the laws of logic to do so.
@@terryhollifield9343 I understand why you would think that what I am saying is contradictory but this is just because you are looking at it through the lense of logic assumming that logic is the manner by which Truth is reached. I will do my best to clarify. The issue of identity is a difficult one. You can claim that when two people look at the same thing and their perceptions do not match it follows that one of them is wrong. This is completely false. If we have a chair in the middle of a forest and a dog and a human look at it they do not **see** the same thing (the same logos to use the Christian term). Only the human sees the percept 'chair'. So by your definition what the dog sees is not true? Of course it is. It is a facet of the nature of what for us is a chair. The law of non-contradiction as well as the law of identity are correct in the realm of abstract quantified thought. But observing the world you can confirm that the boundaries of things, which is to say the logoi of things, are nested and their point of coalescing into a percept is a kind of knowledge. This knowledge is more fundamental than intellectual knowledge.
If you think this is mumbo jumbo I strongly recommend the two books by Henri Bortoft 'The Wholeness of Nature' and 'Taking Appearance Seriously'. Also the book 'The Master and His Emissary' for the scientific evidence of the two manners of knowing.
@@dionysis_ The problem is that you are attempting to refute the use of logic while using logic in order to attempt your refutation. If you can give me a reason to reject logic *without using logic to do so* then we can discuss things. Until then, there's really nothing more to be said about it. You are defeating your own view... and it is necessarily so because logic simply reflects a fundamental part of reality in such a way that rational discourse cannot be conducted without it.
@@terryhollifield9343 I am not using logic. Firstly, there is a distinction between reason and formal logic. Second, my view is based on the phenomenological method which is not analytical. It really is hard to grasp but I have given you some sources and I am open to a discussion. But your current line of defence is just not functional in this case. If you could be more precise on what is wrong in my last reply then we can possibly develop the discussion.
No. Whatever claim Muslims want to make it not the case that they follow in the Old Testament covenant . Furthermore if you’re a Christian then there’s absolutely no chance it’s the same God given that Christ is literally God.
Didn't jesus say in the bible the only true God is the Father in heaven. Also Jews and Muslims worship 1 true God, christians worship a man
@cathy newton no, the holy scirpture got changed by people hence one of the reason quran was revealed to correct the doubtful matters. Also according to Jews muslims worship the same God and the trinitarians are classified as pagans.
@cathy newton do you know how you book came about?
@cathy newton I understand the history of the new testament, the gospel that was closest to any supposed event was written generations after the supposed event. The oldest was written 100yrs after the supposed events. No one knows who wrote them, and no one knows who wrote the old testament.
So yea, I know q good deal about it
@cathy newton no I use to be a Christian
I know a minister who is the sweetest most loving Christian I know, full of love and caring for all in her community and beyond and acts on that love. She is highly intelligent (Oxford graduate) and likes to read up on areas of interest.
I had a discussion with her a couple of years ago and she was all for building bridges with Muslims to find common ground religiously, i disagreed with her stating that Islam is irreconcilable with Christianity as it completely denounces and denies the core tenets of Christianity.
A few months ago while talking she raised Islam again and stated that she had since read about Islam in far greater depth and realised that the basic belief of Islam is at polar ends from Christianity and they can not be reconciled. She then went on to state that Muslims though are still people and should be loved and helped but that that Christians should not give any ground to Islam itself. As such interfaith meetings are fine to find ways for Christians and Muslims to to live together in peaceful harmony and happily but not to find ways to bring the two religions together as that is not possible given the Islamic stance. Something I fully agree with.
This answers it, whether your a Muslim, Jehovah witness or a 👽.
1 JOHN 4:8 But anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
Mathew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
So God is a human emotion?
Andy Bannister makes amazing argument. Very impressive, what a blessing.
He's an old style orientalist nothing new except his style of lies.
Reading many of the comments, I am a little dismayed that so many people use these discussions and then pronounce a 'winner', who is possibly the one who most agrees with their previously held beliefs. I love these discussions for the greater level of understanding I get and the appreciation of the different opinions. It was interesting in this debate to see how the views of both Andy and Josiah have developed and changed over time - through study and experience. Excellent.
Andy is about as bad as j smith
I disagree completely with his notion that the God mentioned in the Quran is not a god of love. Literally the 2nd verse of the 1st chapter tells us he is Al-Rahman, Al-Raheem, the Extremely loving and caring that the constantly loving and caring. The root of both these words is the arabic, Rahm, which means "womb"; like the womb of a mother. God loves us in the same fashion a mother loves her unborn child (but God's love is of a higher magnitude of course).
I was thinking the same. This Andy guy is just bigoted and I highly doubt he even read Quran once let alone doing a deeper linguistic analysis. In psalm 5:5 God of Bible is also known for hating the sinners so I don’t what he’s trying to present.
Thank you so much Justin and all the staff and guests Unbelievable. Gbu you all🕊
Look at the title.
Let's not invite a Muslim to discuss the subject. Unbelievable. 😔
Thousands, mostly educated women, are becoming Muslim in Europe but Alan partridge thinks education is a waste of time.
We have the internet.
Andy makes the most logical sense here. Thanks for your contribution to the conversation.
For ignorant ppl? Yes
And ask forgiveness from your Lord and turn to Him in repentance, Verily my Lord is Most Merciful, Most Loving. (Quran 11:90)
He is oft Forgiving and full of Loving Kindness. (Quran 85:14
If Allah is absolutely one, how can he be loving, forgiving and merciful before creation of the earth?
@@jeremywongzijun1994
As limited beings, we can only know what the Creator, Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala is from what He tells us.
He us unlimited, Al Knowing.
Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala is Al Wadud In Islam, الودود (al-Wadud) is one of the 99 names of God. It means the Most Loving. It was mentioned twice in the Quran, first in Surah Hud, which stated “Seek forgiveness from your Lord, then turn towards Him in repentance. Surely, my Lord is very merciful, most loving.”
To believe He must be pluralised, when He tells you no such thing is unwise. To believe He is or needs to become a man when He says He is unchanging (and by necessity is unchanging), is also unwise.
The Lord you God is One Lord.
@@reesecane7878 but Allah is limited by his throne where he sits (Surah 11:7). Many places in the Quran says that his throne. And Allah istawa (goes up to) his throne (32:4). What do you mean he is unlimited? Your Allah is a solid, finite being, who is neither omnipresent nor omnipotent nor infinite. Don’t steal from the god of the Bible.
@@jeremywongzijun1994 This throne is accepted to be more metaphoric. Also although we state Allah as a he, in arabic its a more gender neutral meaning. Allah is above all and we dont know what God doesn't seem necessary to us.
He gave us freewill .... He gave us Science to discover in his name.
If God is omnipresent , present in everything so the highest form of worship is to find his presence in you. The fruits of this practice are peace , equanimity, and mastery over you 're animal nature. You become and harmonious being. I like archbisop answer.
God is omnipotent.. There shouldn't b any doubt...
Omnipresent so inside everything?
@@reesecane7878 yeah, "And indeed We have created man, and We know whatever thoughts his inner self develops, and We are closer to him than (his) jugular vein." (Quran 50:16) . One of God's names is اَلْوَاسِع (al-wāsiʿ), which means the "The Vast, The All-Embracing, The Omnipresent, The Boundless, The All-Encompassing"
@@kamlasayeen
I suggest "omnipresent" in terms of His knowledge.
Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala does not enter His creation, He doesn't need to, He's Al Aleem, The All Knowing.
Hi Justin, honestly I love your work as a Muslim and have benefitted a lot from your material during this past lockdown year, so thank you. That being said, I think it would be fruitful to have a traditional, orthodox Muslim on to balance this discussion. This discussion is at the heart of the existence of billions of people, and I think warrants a live Muslim pushback. Without getting into it here, most Muslims would have strong issue with some of the reductionist notions of our theology like the afterlife being a 'party in the sky', or that for Muslims eternal divine connection and being saved from divine alienation as not worthy of mention or perhaps even dismissed by the Islamic theology entirely. It would also be edifying to explore why so many Jews reject Christian theology while feeling much closer to Islamic theology; refusing to pray in churches but can pray in mosques. There are more problematic examples to explore such as the issue of the Islamic God 'not loving sinners' and how this somehow means the Islamic God is not loving, but fundamentally my point is that this discussion requires the other side to engage with. Thank you!
@cathy newton Can a Jew enter a church and pray there according to their theology?
@cathy newton Thanks for your reply Cathy. That's fascinating that you're Unitarian. We have a strong agreement there in worshipping one God only. May I ask why you wouldn't accept Muhammad as a Prophet? Please do keep it respectful otherwise I will disengage. Also I stand by that Jews reject trinity and the divinity of Jesus, which is obviously the position of most Christian churches in the world, hence my claim that Pauline Christianity has strong pagan and hellenistic theological foundations, which contradict the pure monotheism of Judaism and the Old Testament.
@cathy newton So I'll have to correct you, the Quran actually corrects the scriptures because the scriptures have a ton of contradictions. From history, to prophecy, to genealogy, to science, to describing the lives of the Prophets, to variations in writing styles etc etc. Honestly this is not the place for such a discussion. We can have an email exchange if you prefer, but you are wrong about the Quran I'm afraid.
@cathy newton Sorry Cathy, the option for respectful and edifying dialogue is there if you want an email exchange, but I get the impression you just want to debunk Islam rather than learn and exchange ideas. Good luck with your existential and spiritual journey. Sidi
'most Muslims would have strong issue with some of the reductionist notions of our theology like the afterlife being a 'party in the sky''
Yeah, I'm no expert on Islam by any means but I nonetheless know that Andy is talking bollocks when he implies that the notion of 'a new heavens and a new Earth' is not part of Islamic theology.
Is it about Muslims and Christians or Islam and Christianity? I am confuse.
Half way through and it seems these chaps are talking past each other, one is talking about Islam and Christianity while the other is talking about Muslims and Christians. While still an interesting discussion it might have been better if they subject was more specifically agreed between the parties prior to the discussion taking place.
Insightful distinction. Jesus valued people (that religious people disapproved), and He met them where they were. "I know that all of you possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up." 1 Cor. 8:1 Why would you not encourage a Muslim who is close to the true God in his personal understanding, building on the foundation God had already laid in his life through his experience and culture, and instead focus on telling him everything and everyone in Islam is wrong. Why not tell him, "You are not far from the Kingdom of God"?
@@rsteveslater So at what point do you tell them the truth that Muhammad was a false prophet and not the best example of mankind and that Jesus is God?
@@User_Happy35 I've told the few Muslims I've met that Muhammad encouraged us to read the Injil (New Testament) and to date none have refused. In spite of being told the NT is full of errors in translation, they encounter Jesus through reading the Scriptures and some even in dreams or visions. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to reveal to them who Jesus is. Matthew 16:16-17 (ESV) Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven". In fact, no one can really call Jesus Lord except by the work of the Holy Spirit. As for Muhammad, unlike Jesus, mere prophets are human and sinful, as we see from many examples in the Old Testament. Sometimes I think by confronting and arguing we can slam the door to the Kingdom in someone's face. Give others time to come to their own conclusions by providing information (the Bible) gently and patiently asking questions to understand and being a letter of Christ to them by your life in your own relationship with them.
@@rsteveslater Why do you believe the "gospel"s are a historically reliable account of the life (words/deeds) of Jesus the Messiah?
@@reesecane7878 Thanks for a good question. Short answer: because the Gospels are not purely metaphysical but intertwined with real people, geographical locations, dates and events, which are often verifiable. For example: "In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet..."Luke 3:1-4 (ESV) Longer answer: I recommend F.F. Bruce "The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable".
Archbishop Josiah is talking as a politician not as a servant of God because the question was is Muslim worship the same God with Christian?? But he is beating around the bush
I can't help but be disappointed by this debate - not because either participant were bad, per say, but because they seemed to be talking past each other. Andy Bannister is making an argument from theology and the historical origins of each religion, and the Archbishop Idowu-Fearon is making an argument based on a shared human experience of faith. And because both of those claims can mutually be true, there is no real disagreement or exploration of their arguments.
I would quite enjoy seeing another debate between Andy Bannister and another theologian who has a different view of Islam, who can engage him on the theory he espoused about the origins of Islam as an Abrahamic religion, because that is an interesting, strong claim that deserves a deeper discussion and an interlocutor who can challenge it from a theological and historical perspective.
Why is this always a debate? The answer is no. Modern Judaism and Islam deny the Trinity. If you don't follow the triune God then you aren't worshiping the same God as Christians.
There was/is also debate around the trinity among Christian denominations. The Bible isn't clear. There are passages where Jesus himself is differentiating himself: Jesus spoke to a man who had called him ‘good,’ asking him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.’ (Luke 18:19)
At least as reported by the authors of the New Testament.
@@carpediem5232 Because as a human being, having himself human nature too, he was trying to say that no man is good, setting himswlf first as an example.
@@juancorzo5081 Yeah of course. How would you know that?
@@carpediem5232 It was a rhetorical question.
@@benjy288 No it's not. Read the context. A man asks Jesus how to achieve eternal life. And Jesus differentiates between himself and god by not accepting being addressed as good as only god is truly good and then refers to the commandments given by god to achieve what the man is asking.
There are other verses that are ambiguous at best. And how was the issue settled for mainstream Christianity? Not really through intellectual debate, but through pogroms, where for example the Arians, that didn't conform to the doctrine of the trinity decided on at the council of Nicea, were killed or forced to convert. More Christians were killed in internal conflicts about the trinity that in any than there were killed under Roman pagan emperors.
The archbishop is a model for a great Christian, a man of faith, love and understanding.
The other guy is so confused, he is running circles around himself. , Jews dont believe in Jesus, are they worshiping a different God than christians? According to his logic Chrsitians believe in a different God than the one on the old testament.
What a joke of an argument
What a superb discussion. I have gained much greater understanding of this topic than I could have hoped. A blessing as so many of the broadcasts are.
I am speaking before watching the video, but even scripture aside, they are not worshipping the same God even on a purely philosophical level. I have lived in Turkey 11 years. God for Sunni Muslims compared to God for Christians is very much ABOVE while his people are below. And it remains that way for all time. God for Christians is ABOVE, but through that revealed in scripture Chrisitians can move closer toward God and have a more personal relationship with God. There is a sense that God allows some of himself to be known and understood, and that this is even encouraged. In Islam the opposite is true.
You're conclusions about what Islam teaches about the relationship between God and His Creation is incorrect. Yes, He is Above His Creation and distinct from it, not within it. But, that doesn't mean we cannot have a close and personal relationship with Him. As a matter of fact, that's the purpose of worship and devotion itself in Islam. Yes, there are laws, but there is also spirituality and nearness to God through those Divine Laws.
Hope that clarifies that for you.
Alah god of Islam is deferent from our Lord Jesus Christ so Islam is deferent
@cathy newton Hi Cathy. It doesn't. It affirms that which is correct and corrects that which needed correction after man had altered or corrupted it. Hope that clarifies that.
I also have a question regarding continuity, if I may; why does the New Testament contradict the Old Testament with the introduction of a Triunion God? That being something completely foreign and unknown to Jews (including Jesus himself) and rejected by them, even today.
@@AbooLayth The NT doesn't contradict the OT, in fact the NT fulfills the prophecies and promises of the OT, and regarding the nature of God, what Jesus did was reveal that to us, he was necessary to do so, and according to that revelation we build our understanding. Islam does the opposite and builds an understanding first and then views reality according to that presupposition, so their idea of God is limited by the boundaries of the human mind, that's why they reject complex ideas like the Trinity and favor a much simpler concept.
@@hullie7529 With all due respect, you can introduce any belief system, however eccentric and ridiculous, and call it a "complex idea". That's not an explanation.
The fact of the matter is, your Trinitarian understanding of God is foreign to the OT, and even to NT, and is as far from what Abrahamic teachings are of God as the Hindu Trinity is.
If you feel I'm being unfair, go and ask an Orthodox Jew what they think of the Trinity and how it fits in to their concept of Monotheism. Convince them of your "complex idea" using the OT.
Let me know how that goes.
Thankfully, Islam teaches an unambiguous, uncompromisingly strict Monotheism as it relates to God; His is One, undevisible, distinct from His creation - He is Uniquely One, the Self-Sufficient, He is not born nor does He give birth, and there is nothing in creation that can be compared or likened to Him.
One God has a son the other doesn't. Therefore they are not the same God.
That was easy. Good for you.
Except there are still ‘Christians’ (Unitarians etc) that dispute this idea in the Bible, preferring to see Jesus as a ‘prophet’ and not a ‘begotten’ son,,,, and of course the Jews would never agree to this either. (Or do Christians not follow the same God as the Jews) 😬😬😬
Nice try at a easy answer, but unfortunately a theological fail.
@@misswarda78 All theology fails because it is not based on reality. If people given access to divine inspiration cant decide what it means then either God is an incompetent fool who cannot send a straight forward message or God does not exist.
@@scarfhs1 - Or people do not wish to believe in the true and living God. Do you honestly believe that because some people reject God's truth makes God not real??
@@misswarda78 - Anyone can take on the label of "Christian" but does that make it true? Unitarians are just another false, manmade form of "Christianity."
btw - I am a Jew. I follow Jesus Christ, the Son of God, my Messiah. God keeps His promises.
So much here addressing believers rather than the belief. Are these men discussing Islam and Christianity (beliefs) or Muslims and Christians (persons)? We are all more or less conscious and consistent with our belief. There are people who CLAIM to be Muslim and others who claim to be Christian; both beliefs have extremely virtuous people who claim to believe and both have evil people who claim to believe. Nothing more or less can be said of atheists. Discussing “believers” who may or may not be aware of their belief will get us nowhere. The belief systems are what need to be discussed.
First comment I've read that I don't really have much qualms with. Well said.
@@AbooLayth in Islam does god have a son?
@@cTRudeboy No, He does not.
@@AbooLayth Okay. And i know for a fact in Christianity god does have a son. So does that make them different gods? Or?
@@cTRudeboy Your logic is flawed. If I believe your dad had another son other than you, whilst he never did, that doesn't all of the sudden mean that there are two seperate people in question. Rather, you'd say to me, "Ziyad, you are mistaken about your assumption about my dad."
Likewise, your belief about God having a literal begotten son, is wrong according to Islam and even according to many Scholars of the Bible. Furthermore, the understanding that God is some sort of Triunion being is also foreign to Islam, and even Judaism, unknown to the Prophets of old and even Jesus (peace be upon them all) himself.
So, your insistence upon the fact that the God of Bible "did" have a son is an assertion that, in it and of itself, is viciously contested.
So, in short, we believe that the God you seek is the same God; the Lord of Adam, Abraham, Isac, Ismael, Moses, David, John, Jesus, and Muhammad (peace be upon them all) - and of all Creation itself.
Wonderful conversation!
I like how William Lane Craig puts it as something like this: It's like when you go to a party, and you see your uncle standing at the bar drinking from a fancy glass. Your brother thinks that the man is drinking martini, but he is actually drinking water. So the God Person is the same but the concept of God is different.
Also Christians in Indonesia often refer to God as Allah as well.
The word "allah" is not a name. It is just a noun representing an idea. It is the word that represents the "god" concept in many, many languages around the world. It is not the phonemes that are important but the concept they represent. Just as on the printed page, it is not the ink that is important, nor even the words, but the ideas behind the words.
I have no difficulty when conversing with a Muslim, referring to the biblical God as Allah, and Jesus is His son. I let them know that Jesus is the true, living Allah, Creator of the heavens and the Earth and all that is in them, and not just some purely human prophet. I also let them know that the Allah of Mohammad is a false allah.
Wherever you use "God" in a sentence, you can substitute "Allah" and that does not necessarily mean you are referring to the Muslim God.
-----------------------------------------------
I completely failed to understand your "bar" metaphor.
@@rubiks6 The phrase "Allah of Mohammad" and the "Allah that is Jesus" may be interpreted differently, but I believe in the case of the Muslim vs Christian Allah, we are referring to the same God. The bar metaphor is telling how one may have different perception of the same being, and therefore having different concept of the same being.
@@hatamsu - The Allah of the Bible and the Allah of the Quran are very different in nature and character. The god of the Quran is a false, man-made god. It is arrogant and remote. The God of the Bible is humble and so interested in His people He actually became one of us. The God of the Bible gave His life to save us. The god of Muhammad would never give his life for anyone. The god of Muhammad is worthless.
@@rubiks6 Jews don't believe that God would sacrifice himself for anyone either, yet you (presumably) believe the Jewish and Christian God to be one and the same. Also, I'm pretty sure that the God of Islam does take interest in his people.
@@rubiks6 'I let them know that Jesus is the true, living Allah, Creator of the heavens and the Earth and all that is in them, and not just some purely human prophet.'
You do know that Muslims regard Jesus as the Messiah, and not just a human prophet?
Do you know which of the three Abrahamic religions does regard Jesus as merely human? Judaism, whose God you're happy to recognise as being the same as the Christian God.
Oh dear , Josiah here completely went off course in minutes 25: +.
Jews and Muslims worship the same God. Christians also worship the same God but they associate other deities with the same God. Jews and Muslims both would consider Christian understanding of God as idolatry. All of them try their best to stick to the pure abrahamic faith ie monotheism (peace be upon prophet Abraham). Christian understanding of monotheism is not solid monotheism you would find in ot or quran. It attempts to render a monotheistic model but clearly on fundamental level definition of monotheism is totally different in Christianity.
"theology of the majority"?
Wikipedia -
"The Migration to Abyssinia, also known as the First Hegira, was an episode in the early history of Islam, where Muhammad's first followers fled from the persecution of the ruling Quraysh tribe of Mecca. They sought refuge in the Christian Kingdom of Aksum, present-day Ethiopia and Eritrea, in 9 BH or 7 BH. Wikipedia
Start date: 613 AD
Location: Hejaz
Result: Some of the Muslims settling in Abyssinia
Participants: A group of twelve men and four women"
The King (Negas) became Muslim.
Small groups of Muslims traded around the world and spread Islam to eg: Indonesia and Philippines, China and India.
Alan partridge is wrong again.
Thanks for the discussion. Thought Andy was great and made some solid arguments, on the other hand, I was disappointed that the archbishop said his argument came purely from personal experiences with Muslims rather than from a theological one, as I think we should be able to answer this question by looking it at the different claims the bible and quran make about God.
A good discussion regardless.
Indeed. We cannot trust men and especially ourselves. Trust God. That means trusting the Word of God. Coming to a conclusion based on you own feelings, experience and reasoning will almost certainly lead you astray. I trust the Bible even when I do not like what it is saying. My feelings are irrelevant. God's Word is the truth.
Totally agree with you
Jesus was perfect and sacrificed himself for us, believe in him to go to God
Christians worship 3 Gods. They are not monotheistic. Islam: One true God.
@17:07
That exactly how I always see it. I consider Muslim and Christian God to be different because of the difference in character.
In fact, Islam denys one of the must fundamental believes we have as Christians; that is the death and resurrection of Jesus.
There is no hope for us "as the Bible says" if Jesus didn't die. Because then our sins will still remain
For the resurrection also, if Jesus did not resurrect then what hope do we have in the afterlife?
Ezekiel 18.
No one needs to or can die to save you from your sin.
All will be judged on judgement day.
No get out clause. Sorry.
@@reesecane7878 is that your misunderstanding of the scripture?
Read John 3:16
@@mosog8829
Book of John is heretic to Jews.
Cannot use it to prove anything.
@cathy newton
You have no doctrine worth the name.
Like Atheists you believe we "cease to exist" after death.
You believe supposedly in heaven but not in Hell-fire.
@cathy newton I disagree 💯%
If their God did and said what is written, then his character is definitely different from the God of the Christians.
I feel like a point that should have been covered is, as Christians believe that Jesus is God like the bible says. Any person (This includes Muslim's, Jews, etc.) not believing this does not then believe in the same God. I mean if God says that Jesus is his son and God himself, then he has to be God. To me, it doesn't get any simpler than this.
Further, while Jesus does tell us to live differently, and by that others will see. He also goes out saying what is wrong/right to others (of course do this in a loving way). The disciples also do this when they go about preaching the gospel.
Look, this couldn't be easier. You walk up to a Muslim and ask "Does God the Father have an eternally-begotten Son?" The answer will, no doubt, be "Banish the thought." We do not worship the same God. Obviously.
Did you know the word begotten has been removed from the bible.
@@teefx5681 What?
@@marcuswilliams7448 yep RSV
Are you going to leave Christianity now
@@teefx5681 Yeah. Some modernist translation is going to cause me to forsake a 2,000 year old witness of Holy Christendom.
God is the most gracious ever merciful, this is the verse at the beginning of every chapter in the Holy Qur'an. It is stated at least 114 times (as there are 114 chapters), which proves that God is a loving God in Islam
Short answer No! MANY TRY to claim it is but #1 Bible clearly in detail states #1 recognition of a false prophet or god is "Deceit " Allah and Mohammad claim deceitfulness in Quran.
Ywah is loving and Quran specifically goes out of its way to not use thus word in any manor that relates the 2 together.
Convert threw kindness and education with the Bible but Mohammad and Allah are good forcing the world to submit by any means necessary..
Allah allows gas lighting and any sin that advances Islam is ok =Tyquyya permits pegan worship if it advances islam in some way
Archbishop says Muslims and Christians worship One God based solely on his personal experiences. What about the historical and archeological evidences of Christ, God became man through Christ with the historical and Apostolic evidences we have access to? Archbishop does not seem to respond to the question: Do Muslims and Christians worship the SAME God? I think Archbishop needs to separate the attributes of Christian God and the Muslim God and has not actually answered the question. It is nothing to do with being judgemental either. Am afraid Andy answered the question better than the Archbishop who seems to respond more from personal experiences.
Shouldn't a Muslim scholar be also part of this discussion, to make it more balanced?
Your quran(s) are rambles of a Demon Possessed Pedophile..
It's not important that the scholar is Muslim. What's important, is they be a scholar of Islam.
@@billcross8381 just like the Archbishop, a Muslim scholar too can add value to the topic being discussed. You can't just throw in a secular scholarship, having expertise in Islamic studies, and get away with a hangover like this. Such types of patchworks need to be avoided in discussions of import. One at least needs to represent all the parties that are relevant to the topic and then have a discussion, irrespective of what each party has to say - otherwise it would remain partisan approach. An ideal mix in this case would have been, a Muslim scholar, 2 secular university scholars (both from Islamic and Christianity) and a Christian scholar. I hope I have been able to get my point across!
@@syedmuhammadhassanaskari6397 I get point you're trying to make. I just disagree with it.
@@joehouston2833 How old was the virgin Mary again?
In life we always have to consider who we'd be inclined to share a couple of pints with, well - both of these gentlemen qualify, i my humble opinion.
But - Andy has won my heart here:
The more you study the Qur'an, Bukhari and Muslim, the more you develop the idea that the author of the Qur'an, subsequently Allah, were either ignorant of core Christian doctrines or wilfully and cleverly set out to ruin them.
Kind regards Kim
The pure, core message of The Christian Gospels promotes universal altruism and peace, whereas fundamental Islam is very insular and aggressive and does not tolerate " Infidels " or non- Muslims. To illustrate the vast difference between both religions ( and their respective deities ) , only two questions need to be asked. 1. Why are the true fundamental Islamic countries not truly multi-cultural, with numerous churches and synagogues as well as mosques ? 2. What are the penalties ( yes, there are penalties ) for non-compliance and non-conversion to Islam, and also for leaving Islam. End Of. Simples.
Laughably simplistic, you mean?
You can see from both men again that religion takes from human beings the good and love we do and put a God on it. In that case Yes they both worship the same God but not through their holy books cos they contradict each other
The Christian God is Love? Lets examine the facts:
God creates Adam 'perfectly' but then changes the rules and gives him the propensity to sin, which he then does.
When Adam sins he is not 'forgiven' with love, he is thrown out, even though God created Adam with the ability to sin
This sin is 'inherited' by all Adams descendants, none of which had anything to do with eating the fruit.
Everyone is 'fallen', and the 'wages of sin is death', so for God there is no difference between genocide and a child stealing toffee
God refuses to forgive anyone and demands blood payment and by this standard he is less loving then almost everyone you know
Blood payment comes in the form of sending his God-Son for payment, again, he can't just forgive with love
The God-Son is brutally tortured and killed in a gruesome Aztec style human sacrifice ritual (where's the love now?)
For God, no actual sacrifice has been made, its like taking 5 bucks from one pocket and putting it in the other pocket
Only a handful of people saw the resurrection, the Gospels give contradictory accounts, nobody really knows what happened
God sends the Holy Spirit to the Gospel writers, who end up composing a contradictory mish-mash of Hellenic and Jewish ideas
God expects everyone to believe that Christ came, was killed and resurrected even though this is not knowable by 99.9999%
If you don't believe this happened then you are condemned to Hell, there is no forgiveness and there is nothing you can do
You won't understand unless you have been 'convicted by the Holy Spirit', the same spirit who couldn't keep the Bible preserved
Contrast with the Muslim God who created you to sin, expects you to sin, and when you sin, as long as you ask for forgiveness with sincerity, he forgives you and that's the end of it - no gruesome human sacrifice necessary.
Which God is more 'loving'?
Unfortunately, just as the Muslim understanding of God/Allah was misrepresented in the podcast, you have also misrepresented my understanding of God as revealed in Jesus and the Bible. It seems to me that those followers of Jesus, which include Muslims, who focus more on their Scriptures, and less on cultural forms of Christianity and Islam as propagated by preachers and imams, are very close to one another in their understanding. "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away... For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known." 1 Corinthians 13:9-12 (ESV) My knowledge of God is incomplete and in process. I know in part, and my Muslim friend may know a different part. We do not need to compete to know God more fully.
Christianity is not a concept, it’s accepting the life of God through the personality of the Lord Jesus!
Sadly saying; if wearing Christ becomes a JOB, that is a disaster!!
Can you also post to Rumble?
Andy seems to take his opinion of Islam from the Hadith. However The Quran says: It is complete and needs no further additions.
Verse (45:6)
The analysis above refers to the sixth verse of chapter 45 (sūrat l-jāthiyah):
These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe?
Also Verse (2:256). 2 (sūrat l-baqarah):
There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion.
Muslim says Jesus never die without a cross. Christianity says Jesus dies with a cross
For Quran the answer is Yes. ( 29 : 46 )
Your quran(s) are rambles of a Demon Possessed Pedophile..
No. allah doesn't care about sin in this world (if he is holy why doesn't he care about sin???), does not love us and therefore does nothing for us with regard to sin and the fallen world vis-a-vis redemption. Only God the Father so loved the world that He sent His Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16). Ergo, the God of the Holy Bible is not the god of the quran. Be it theology, attributes etc. You have never read the Holy Bible to understand who God really is, so you think it's the same. The God of the Holy Bible is almighty and is the truth. He does not deceive nor tell lies. Instead, the quran says allah is the best of deceivers and even deceived people by making them think that Jesus was crucified when it was an allah-provided stun body double who was crucified instead. Lies and deception are used when one doesn't have actual power. You have been deceived by the god of this world! The God of the Holy Bible does not need to deceive and lie for He is God Almighty!
The ˹true˺ servants of the Most Compassionate are those who walk on the earth humbly, and when the foolish address them ˹improperly˺, they only respond with peace.
25 : 63
@@muhammadsakib8092
Sura 56:17 🤢🤮
Rambles of a Demon Possessed Pedophile..
@@muhammadsakib8092
Are you happy to follow a Demon Possessed Pedophile?
58 min 30 secs
"Muhammad is the problem"?
Islam is a "Deen" = System of life so yes politics and law and social structure included. Total guidance.
Before I watch, I would say yes, even though I'm terribly sceptical of Islam, and think it today embodies the opposite of Christianity in many ways. But there is only one source, one creator. Even Buddhists relate to the same Truth to the extent that they do. We are all mistaken in many ways in our image of God, and Christians tend to view God as an object out there, which is so much more wrong than most other differences, but in the end as long as it brings one to gratitude for everything, that is more important. If we say there is some bar one must get over in understanding before one is worshiping God, we are definitely cutting ourselves off as well. I can't read the Gospel, without coming away with this understanding, that faith is something ineffable, not a matter of what dogmas one affirms, even though the dogmas are important to the extent they bring people to faith. Ultimately being thankful for existence, is worship of God. Of course Islam is completely weird, and leads people away from faith. But God is God, and I've seen examples of people being really thankful for the creator and the opposite, withing both Islam and Christianity.
It will be fun to see what I say after listening.
My conception of this, after the discussion, is still the same. Yes, Muslims worship the same God. However, that is something completely different from talking about whether or not the Quran describes that God in any good way for them, which is something completely different. Muslim != Islam != Quran. Muslims do come together to worship the one source of all in thankfulness. I believe in spite of their official tradition and Quran. Though not all of them do that, and even though their tradition and book works against them in many ways. I would actually extend this to Atheists as well. To the extent that an Atheist is thankful for experience, and lives in Truth and love, that is worship. It is the heart that worships, not the intellect, although it certainly help when the intellect collaborates. Yes, there is a lot lacking, as there is in all of us. I see Christianity as a system that helps bring more people to this thankfulness, because their intelligence stops getting in the way all the time. The good news is that the infinite, the ultimate ideal, that all traditions have been striving towards, is the one that lowers Himself to what we humans by default see as dishonor, loosing, etc. It makes sense of all the religions. The ideal is that which accepts loosing and dishonor, which actually mysteriously is winning and honor. Most people in most religions strive towards this, but have not seen it revealed to the extend Christians have.
No.
Okay. Let's say Muslim and Christians worship and believe the same God. Which of these two religion is acceptable to God by their worship and by their beliefs? Because these two religion is very different in many ways and teachings.
According muslims all the prophets taught islam including jesus, it is only the political leaders and churshes changed it to suite their need. Muslims claim Mohammed came to restore the true message which is worship 1 God alone and follow the law.
Do Christians and Jews worship the same God? No.
Why? Jews are NOT allowed to pray in a church but they ARE allowed to pray in mosques. Go figure.
Whilst Islam professes to worship the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob their understanding of him falls hopelessly short of the mark.
What's that mark?
Another easy question that religious believers cannot wrap their heads around. Judging by the comments section; most people are talking about their opinion, or their theology, or their religious practices. Those things are not really relevant though. Obviously the 3 "Abrahamic" religions; Judaism, Christianity, & Islam, are different religions and different theologies. But the question being asked here is if they worship the same god [the same being]. The answer is easy. Yes.
@Desire Of All Nations Since when does logic have anything to do with religious belief?
Furthermore; what you are describing is theology, which I mentioned. If theological differences was the issue, then not all Christians worship the same god.....let alone Jews and Muslims. Hell, the Sunni & Shia Muslims have differences.
The question itself only makes sense if it's in regards to the beliefs being directed towards the same being, not their interpretations.
The fact is that they are referred to as the "Abrahamic" religions because they all claim to worship the same god. Jesus [if there was such a person] was religiously Jewish. The core belief of Christianity is that Jesus was the messiah. They even invent secret messages in Jewish scripture in order to pretend the "old testament" predicts Jesus. The revelation of Muhammad is said to come from the archangel Gabriel, archangels are specific to Judaism. Islam even addresses the Jesus issue; they just recognize him as a prophet of god. Not that he was the "son" of god or god incarnate as Christians do.
Thanks bye for comment
Bannister engages in a lot of sleight of hand when utilising scholarship, both biblical and Quranic. And he makes false analogies again and again. On the former, his depiction of Islam early on as a religion of works is no different from similar caricatures of Judaism at the hands of Christians not a few decades ago, which received a devastating refutation in 1977 in Sanders' "Paul and Palestinian Judaism." His claim that God is not loving in Islam is also a lie. Islamic sources, Qur'an in particular, present God as loving, merciful, forgiving and caring again and again. It is true, this is restricted to the believers. God does punish the wrong doers and those who reject Him and His teachings. But towards those who accept faith, God has a loving and intimately affectionate relationship, constantly hearing and responding, both to the spoken words and what is kept in the heart. Bannister's claim about not being able to follow the law and how this is a problem completely distorts the Jewish take, which is explained in detail by EP Sanders. Ultimately, to say Muslims worship a different God backfires on Christians because the Unitarian God is the common factor between Judaism and Islam. You need to explain via argument how Judaism and Christianity still share the same God when Islam is excluded. Rejection of the Islamic God should also entail a rejection of the Jewish God, leaving Christianity the odd one out. Both Islam and Judiasm share the same conception of God and both are strongly grounded in the law. They have the same conception of "sin management" via atonements, and both agree upon God's grace as the saving factor, although the law and good deeds also playing a prominent part. The only difference I can think of is a much softer image of God in the Qur'an than in the Jewish bible. He is more gentler in the former. Be that as it may, given the aforementioned ground of commonalities, Christianity becomes the odd one out. It is not surprising that while the rabbis had reservations about Christians worshipping the God of Judaism, they usually did not have similar reservations about Muslims worshipping the same God as Jews.
In short you cannot have it both ways. If Islam is excluded, Judaism should logically be excluded also.
@cathy newton okay Cathy. Thanks for your comments.
No
I am very disappointed in the Bishop. He needs to study the two religions more. Also, he is from Nigeria and from understanding Boko Haram is from Northern Nigeria and the Christians being killed and churches burnt, yet, the Bishop claimed that Muslims and Christians respect each other.
Andy is insufferable and Josiah deserves a medal for getting through that, though I only made it about two-thirds of the way through. The title of the discussion was unsurprisingly changed to: is Christianity and Islam the same religion? I'm not sure why it watched anyway as a nonreligious person. There is only one God - for everyone.
Someone mentioned one of Allah's 99 names is: the loving; let's do the math - 1/99 or 0,010101 or 1,0101 %
Imagine walking into a bar with a big sign over the door: whiskey!
But inside, all they serve is downwatered liquor thin enough to be sold as plain H2O.
Wouldn't you be inclined to address the proprietor of that place concerning his idea of whiskey?
What you want in life is a 100 % clean liquor: Jesus Christ; it's for free and you don't have to drink all day: one sip's gonna knock you clean out.
Kind regards Kim
I asked light I said you , Jesus light said no way
Should I lie? No
With all due respect towards Josiah, it is hard to co vince me that he is not a universalist.
Watching this - has convinced me, that the middle class yuppie Church, has absolutely no ideological resources, to deal with militant Islam, and Islamisation. It is sad, both speakers came across as clueless.
I think we should take about the Christian majority secular countries committing genocides with drone attacks killing millions of innocent ppl. Cuz their atrocities are far greater than ppl simply defending their country from foreign attacks
Yes, but with an asterisk.
Its the same general idea and foundation, however where they differ is much like how Greeks and Romans had similar but different gods, and how they also adopted Egyptian gods and viewed then as there own good with different names. Better yet how Christians made the Jewish god their god and changed his attributes and character.
That's how mythology works, syncretism, adoption, absorption, etc.
**them**
**their**
@@rubiks6 i don't need your correcting...remember autocorrect is a thing. Thanks anyway.
@@whatwecalllife7034 - "... autocorrect is a thing."
Indeed it is. You should use it.
@@rubiks6 lmao man you're arrogant.
It's called AUTO correct, meaning it happens AUTOMATICALLY, making it easier to miss. Smh
@@whatwecalllife7034 - Learn to write and learn to think.
I want to know how you think the God of the New Testament is different from the God of the Old Testament. I don't see it. I'm Jewish.
Unbelievable, Unbelievable? This guy is an archbishop? For shame. Islam is a Unitarian and Arian heresy.
36 min
The Archbishop is right Andy isn't being fair and I'd add, honest.
You bring the Archbishop on to defend the position where a Muslim should be.
"Where is love"? Asks the Archbishop. Where is truth, ask I.
It’s no surprise the Church of England is in the current spiritual state as this archbishop, a high position in the church believes the Christian and Moslem God are the same. He argues this incoherently having chosen to defend the Moslems. Could a Moslem not be found for the debate or is he actually a Moslem at heart but infiltrated the church with an ulterior agenda.
I thought that Muslims and Christians are monotheists...? Or maybe they are just pretending, claiming that 'the other' worships another god. Well, the boss must be the only one... And God must also be only one.
Well done, Archbishop! One God is understood differently!
Let's love the One God in our different ways.
Let's love Him in a Christian way
and in a Muslim way,
and in a Sanathana Dharma (Hindu) way.
Why shouldn't different children love their parent in their own ways?
Is a love of Christian a better way of the love expressed by a Hindu or a Muslim?
I'd claim it is not seen so by the Father.
Religion is not a competition. From God's perspective, if someone loves Him in a Zoroastrian (100k followers) or one follows sanatana dharma (1bn followers), love is love.
Why cannot we just accept one another and love our Father in our own way?
Because some of us are proud and want to follow 'true' religion and want others to be wrong and go to hell. This is a psychotic disorder when one cannot be happy unless the other person goes to hell....
Praise be to Lord,
salam aleikum
namaskar!
I wonder if Andy is reading the same Quran as I do cuz gosh I disagree with him almost all things. First of all he need to tells us where I Quran Allah reject to be a God of love? When I read Quran almost on every page I find this;
“Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (4:106, 39:53, 5:74, 33:5, 49:5 and many other places)
“And He is the All-Forgiving, All-Loving” (85:14)
As for Allah hating sinners, your Bible also says:
“The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. Psalm 5:5
Plus we have stories of God destroy corrupt civilisations with flood, meteors etc so how is Quran different from your Bible in this regard?
So the bishop doesn't think doctrine is important? I'm pretty certain those first century Christians thought Jesus being God was important, that's doctrine. And if you don't believe that Jesus is and always has been God how can you be worshipping the same God Christians worship? Hindus don't worship the God of Christians, nor do Muslims, because Muslims have a god that is one, not three persons. The Muslim God is arbitrary, no Muslim knows for certain their destiny.
There's a story about a man who has murdered 99 people, but wants to avoid Hell. He asks a cleric if he can be forgiven, and when told he cannot promptly kills the cleric. He asks a scholar, who tells him to go to a city, where they will be able to tell him. So he sets off on his journey to this city, but on the way dies. The angels dispute over his destiny and it is decided that if he is nearer to the city than where he has come from he will be forgiven. So Allah shrinks the earth between this murderer and the city. Does this sound like a righteous God to you?
There's another group that do not accept Jesus' deity, the Jews. If the Muslim doesn't worship the same God as Christians because they don't accept Jesus deity, what about the Jews, they say Jesus isn't God. It therefore follows that Jews no longer worship the God Abraham worshipped.
@cathy newton The Trinity is a fundamental Christian belief. How can anyone be a Christian if they do not believe Jesus is God?
@cathy newton I suggest you read the whole of the Bible.
Of course there is only one God, but how we see God will depend on how we conceptualise God, bearing in mind that the God we conceptualise is never God.
A Muslim’s God will definitely be different from the God of a Christian, but then the God of a fundamentalist Christian will be different from the God of an Anglican or Catholic.
These are different views of God, which yield different experiences of God, but these differing views do not generate different Gods. God remains the same despite our different views of God.
Andy Bannister claims to know about Islam but to omit ANY mention of the 99names ofAllah INCLUDING THE many names of compassion, mercy and love shows that he doesn’t really have a clue what he is talking about. He takes a classical evangelical position of NEEDING to distinguish the ‘God’s of Abraham. At the end of the day all supposedly monotheistic. His approach is what maintains war, hatred and misunderstanding, just so he can be ‘right’ In his ideological arrogance. He is as bad as the radical extremists in Islam who distort and present Islam for their own agenda. His book should be shredded up and used as toilet roll.
Jesus is lord and there is no other God. Islam deny Jesus been crucified and if you take that away there is no Christianity. This is one the core reason we don’t believe in the same God.
As one of the church leader it’s leader responsibility to bring people to Christ, Jesus said in Mark 16:15-16. And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
May the Holy Spirit lead you to the truth
Yes, but it doesn't matter how good, charitable etc P Singer or any other atheist is
according to Christians and Muslims if you don't believe what they do and follow their particular book
you are bound for everlasting torment.
Islam The Beautiful Religion
( Be Just )
Quran 5:8
'' O you who believe! stand out firmly for God, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the > HATRED OF OTHERS TO YOU < make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear God. For God is well-acquainted with all that you do. ''
Quran 4:58
'' Indeed, God commands you to render trusts to whom they are due and when you judge between people to judge with justice. Excellent is that which God instructs you. Indeed, God is ever Hearing and Seeing.''
( God's The Rules Of War )
Quran 2:190
'' Fight in the way of God > THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU < but do not transgress. Indeed. God does not like transgressors. ''
Quran 2 :193
'' And fight them on until there is no more oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. ''
Quran 4:90
''.........So if they withdraw from you and cease their hostility and offer you peace, in that case Allah has not granted you permission to fight against them.''
Quran 8:61
''And if they seek peace, then you also seek it, and put your trust in God. He is the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.''
( Stand Up For Justice )
Quran 4 :135
'' Ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against > YOURSELVES < or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.''
( Who Are The Good Human Beings? )
Quran 2.177
'' Righteousness is "NOT" that you turn your faces ( in worship ) toward the east or the west but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in God, the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth,> IN SPITE OF LOVE FOR IT,< to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for > freeing slaves < [and who] establishes prayer and gives charity; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous. ''
( Freedom To Believe And To Reject )
Quran 2:256
'' Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error ''
Quran 10:99
'' And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed > all of them entirely < Then would you compel the people in order that they become believers? ''
( Tolerance For Other Religions )
Quran 109: 1- 6
Say,"O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshipers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshiper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshipers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."
( Protection for Idol Worshiper )
Quran 9:6
"And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are people who do not know. "
Quran16:125
“Call people to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good teaching, and argue with them in the most courteous way”
Quran7:199 “Be tolerant....”
( Friendship With Non Muslims )
Quran 60:8
'' God does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, God loves those who act justly. ''
( Do Christians And Jews and "OTHER" non-Muslims go to Heaven? )
Quran 2:62
'' Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,-> ANY { On Judgement Day }
( According to the Quran Christians and Jews worship TRUE God )
(Quran 3:113-114)
'' Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book ( Christians and Jews ) are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.''
Note: According to the Quran that Jesus is not God nevertheless Christians still worship one '' TRUE '' God.
( > Allah < Is The Protector Of Monasteries, Churches, Synagogues And The Mosques )
Quran 22:40
[They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.
( Why Are There So Many Different Religions In The World ? )
Quran 5 48
''...... If God wanted He could have made all of you a > single nation < But He willed otherwise in order to test you in what He has given you;(scriptures) therefore try to excel one another in good deeds. Ultimately you all shall return to God; then He will show you the truth of those matters in which you > DISPUTE submission < to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (Salvation)''
My explanation of above verse
Islam mean > submission < to God
( The above verse saying is that God will not accept a religion from the > MUSLIM < and the Non-Muslims but total > submission < to God.)
Question: How Can Muslim And the > Non-Muslim < > submit < to the God ?
Answer: Be kind to other human beings and Do not lie, Do not steal, Do not cheat, Do not hurt others, Do not be prideful and Do the charity work.
( God Allow Muslims To Marry And Eat Food From the Christian And Jew And Vice Versa )
Quran 5;5
''This day [all] good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture ( Christian and Jew) is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And [lawful in marriage are] chaste women from among the believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture ( Christian and Jew) before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking [secret] lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.''
( Kindness Toward Atheists / > APOSTATE < )
Quran 60:8
'' As for such [ of the unbelievers ( atheist) ] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, > Allah < does not forbid you to show them > kindness < and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, Allah loves those who act equitably. ''
( All The Terrorists / Killers Will Enter Hell Fire )
Quran 5:32
"......Whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely......"
( Turned Your Enemies Into Your Awesome Friends )
Quran 41:34
"The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one which is better, then lo! he, between whom and thee there was enmity (will become) as though he was a bosom friend."
( The Husband and The Wife Are > Protecting Friends < One Of Another )
Quran 9:71
''And the believers, men and women, are > Protecting Friends < one of another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey God and His messenger. As for these, God will have mercy on them. Lo! God is Mighty, Wise.''
Quran16:97
“To whoever, male or female, does good deeds and has faith, We shall give a good life and reward them according to the best of their actions.
Quran 30:21
“And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquility in them; and He placed between you > affection and mercy { Love }
The Prophet Muhammad said, “The best among you is the best to his wife”
( Human Are One Big family )
Quran 49:13
" O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."
( All The Racist People Will Enter Hellfire )
Quran 30:22
"And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your languages and your colors. Indeed in that are signs for those of knowledge."
My conclusion:
The > BASIC < message of God to the human is that '' YOU '' believe in God and be kind to other human beings / > animals < and in the > RETURNED < God will > REWARD < you with a new life in Paradise.
* The Quran ONLY guides you how to become a good human being " Nothing Else ".
* You are a good human being or a bad human being that is YOUR choice.
* No one can force you to become a good human being.
* You MUST work HARD to become a good human being.
* Why should '' YOU '' do good deeds and avoid bad deeds?
* Do Good - it's for You. Do Bad - It's against you.
* '' YOUR '' life is a TEST from God that you will choose to do either Good or Bad.
* Find the excuse to help others and forgive others NOT the other way around.
* '' YOUR '' final destination is either Hell or Heaven.
* So work HARD toward choice of YOUR destination.
Quran 17:7
If you do good, you will do so for your own good. And if you do evil, it will be to your own loss.
You claim the Quran is teaching everyone to be good but isn't Mohammed supposed to be favoured by Allah and the example everyone should follow? If so that would be contradictory because Mohammed had slaves, traded sex slaves, killed people, broke promises and had sex with 9 year old children. That is the very opposite of being good.
You also said that if you believe in Allah and the last day etc that you will get to heaven. Yet weren't there 2 specific people that Allah said would get to heaven? 1 being Mohammed and the other I think being his father in law. Didn't the father in law say that Allah was such a deceiver that he would not believe he was actually going to heaven even if he had one foot already there, despite being told by Mohammed that he was assured a place?
Remember eholim and Trinity
It's because we need to know what we do with these two words: plagiarism and hijacking
Yes, as both stem from the figure, Abraham, so both are the same, whether Christians or Muslims dislike that or not.
We don't believe in the same God. You believe Jesus is the begotten Son of God who is also God reincarnated. We believe in one Almighty God that Is unimaginable in lower and mercy he begets not nor is he begotten. HE IS THE WHO CREATED ETERNITY ITSELF AND REALITY!!!
Do Muslims & Christians worship the same god? Obviously not. The Muslim god is Allah, and the Christian god is the Holy Trinity. Not the same god.
it's funny when different religions debate whose fantasy is the correct one
Fantasy?yeah with that close minded or atheis perpective,but you can't even explain the explosion of big bang🤣🤣🤣
We have one God said the Archbishop not two. We have one God because the God of Islam like the ancient gods before him were either demons or didn't exist. We need to show our Muslim friends that Mohamad was a false prophet and therefore his god was a demonic spirit.
Christians believe God is a man, so how would it be the same.
Unless you mean the initial Christians and what the disciples believed..their theism was worship to just One God.
Wine and water
Archbishop stop saying u cannot judge..read Mathew 7:1-3 and John 7:24 an also the Bible says ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free, so come out plain stop Joining light with darkness
no..... Christians worship prophet Esa ale salam... who Christians call Jesus and father ghost 3in1..... Muslims worship the one who created Esa ale salam Jesus and everything ..
In his own words...
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.
18:40 One of the 99 names given to God in Islam is 'the loving', so Andy is talking out of his proverbial posterior here.
... let's do the math, David - 1/99 or 0,010101 = 1,0101 %
Imagine walking into a bar with a big sign over the door: whiskey!
But inside, all they serve is downwatered liquor thin enough to be sold as plain H2O.
Wouldn't you be inclined to address the proprietor of that place concerning his idea of whiskey?
What you want in life is a 100 % pure liquor: Jesus Christ; it's for free and you don't have to drink all day: one sip's gonna knock you clean out.
Kind regards Kim
@@kimjensen8207 '... let's do the math, David - 1/99 or 0,010101.'
That isn't necessarily the way that attributes of persons and things work. Also, the God of Christianity is not pure love, at least according to pastor and theologian Tim Keller.
@@davidparry5310
... correct, David - there are passages in the old testament where only fruit trees are left alive; every else breathing, men, women and children - even the animals, are dead
And one of the final scenes of our human experience will be 'the wrath of the lamb'; even CS Lewis found this perspective somewhat discomforting if not down right terrifying.
Love must include justice, I suppose, but as a Christian, I'll have to see myself exempt from a crucifixion I rightly deserved; someone stepped in my place, and that's the gospel: love is not a trivial phenomenon; it's quite the contrary.
Kind regards Kim
Andy,,,,, also Talking about Nabeel Qureishi’s experience,,, is also fallacious. A third option is to ignore the Hadith as many millions of Muslims now do. (Quran only) muslims. Quranists believe that the Quran is the sole source of religious law and guidance in Islam and reject the authority of sources outside of the Quran like Hadith and Sunnah. And, citing Quranic verses like 6:38, 45:6 and 6:112-116, they believe that the Quran is clear, complete, and that it can be fully understood without recourse to the hadith and sunna.[2] Therefore, they use the Quran itself to interpret the Quran:[10]
The so called history of Muhammad is ‘chinese whispers’ and has no historical credibility whatsoever BUT Andy you miss the main point,,, that the Quran never wanted Anyone to ‘follow’ or worship Muhammad. His history is basically irrelevant. As the Quran said he was just a messenger,,,,, and ONLY GOD should be worshipped. (Hence correcting the distortion of the Christians with Jesus). But so many Muslims have repeated the Christian mistake of Idolising Jesus by idolising Mohammed.
But from a Christian perspective you can’t really grasp this,,,, just like the millions of western writers who even called Muslims ‘muhammadens’ until about the middle of the 20th century.
Even though you know Muhammad was only a prophet you still base your opinion of Islam on the so called distorted history of him???? You are no better than Isis if you think Islam should be judged on 9th century warlords??? More intellectual dishonesty.
John 4:23
Indeed, verses 21 to. 24 in that chapter are the key Biblical starting point for a complex ontological discussion.
They both worship a non-existing god. The imagination process is identical in both cases.
Philosophically yes.
Both worships the Creator of the universe.
Theologically no.
The theology of God by of them is skewed. Guess which one.
Devil met Jesus in 40 ? JESUS met his cousin, John the Baptist in lake
Wow! Very good discussion, not an easy topic.
🙄
Remember that mr slave trader received his 'revelations' from a choke slamming 'angel' in a cave
The answer is "no"
If "Allah" is just meaning the generic "The God" then we can say "yes". However, when a Muslim references "Allah", there are specific inferences being made that make THAT God a different God then the God of the Bible.
Yeah, Allah is used to distinguish the Islamic god from ilah, which could refer to any of the gods once worshiped in Arabia or the Christian God.
Light says no way. Light didn't perfer jesus' way