It's really funny that Capcom nailed their rollback netcode, thus fixing the issue of inputs being dropped/eaten due to the game pausing unpredictably, and then gave both players the ability to pause the game unpredictably.
@sethxtekken both boxers physically could start kicking the other, but we agree it's best for the sport if that's against the rules. The screen freeze should be addressed but as the video shows it's a cursed problem. Every conceivable solution has knock-on effects on the rest of the game
Why time freeze is the thing at the first place it’s totally unnecessary, if they want to make dr reactable just make it universally slower wtf isn’t it that simple
The frustrating thing is capcom initally said this wasnt intended and they were going to fix it. Its now been around a year since they said that and nothing
@@justjunker699 this would make drive rush just feel slow. It should be possible to accurately extend the buffer frames for the drive rush to fix this, though I imagine making it play nice with Rollback is tricky.
I wish the Replay filter would save your settings so we don't have to keep messing with it. Same for viewing profile phases; it resets when you merely turned pages...
I'm a new casual player that got it cuz of a friend, and yeah that was my very first reaction with the game. How is such a big company in Capcom, and the dev team that should be experienced throughout all of their games make SUCH a garbage UI? The UX on the menu is absolutely terrible, maybe FGC/SF6 players are used to it and whatever but coming from other games or other competitive games it's all a "?????" moment for me, cuz you could have just copied what EVERYONE else does in their UI. Oh and also, just like in classic, old Japanese company that copies what the AAA companies in the west do with a 2 year delay. WTF is up with making the most meaningless "CAPCOM ID" system? Even other recent games have been dropping that useless, annoying, stupid lEts MAke OuR oWn CliENt/internal system Helldivers 2 got A B S O L U T E L Y rightfully shat on for that shit with the PSN account that nobody wants to make on PC, inviting someone to a custom lobby in SF6 is so unnecessarily long for no good reason. Just integrate your system with Steam FFS, all the basis in the API is already there because. *cough* Valve has honestly decades of experience in talented people over you Capcom. Even just most other Co-op games on Steam. You go to your friendlists, or you get invited through Steam Chat, you click "Join" once and guess what. I'm alraedy in the fucking lobby with the game started up, it's all done in one click and I don't even have the game booted up, it boots it up for me, and it joins the lobby for me, I don't have to do a THING. Long rant, but how garbage and shitty the UI/UX is in SF6 in CURRENT YEAR is absolutely baffling to me, FGC/SF6 players may be used to it, it doesn't change the fact that it's just absolutely garbage for no good reason, no good reason at all. All you had to do was use systems ALREADY IN PLACE, or just COPY other games and that was it bro, The fuck is a "CFN" anyway EDIT: And I really gotta add this example. Even APEX LEGENDS, with EA/Respawn having their old obsession over their own client/store in Origin, once the game went to Steam guess what, they properly integrated their game into Steam, Because Apex Legends is that old, yes you still need an origin account but at least once I do that I don't feel this weird separation between Origin/Steam. You only see Origin the first time you connect the accounts and never again have to interact with that shit ever.
This eating of inputs happened to me so many times and I wasn't sure why it was happening until now ... I hope Capcom finds a way to fix that without breaking the game.
The fact that DR will even eat jump inputs just makes it really frustrating sometimes. Not only do you not jump but because you were expecting to jump you’re not even blocking and get hit!
Sometimes the best counter to certain drive rush normals is neutral jump, moves that slide forward with added hitstun or blockstun, do multiple hits or are cancellable so you can't Di or perfect parry (or you can but it's not worth the risk). Jamie's 3 hit hp is a good example, also Aki fireball Dr fhk comes to mind.
THANK YOU JIMMY! This issue has been maddening since day 1. Checking since rush is so much harder than checking dashes in SFV simply because of this input eating nonsense. Not enough people are bringing attention to this issue, especially in such an illuminating way. You rock.
DR in neutral is unfixable imo, unless you want to remove it only in neutral and butcher tons of character’s combos. Capcom dug a hole with this one that we can’t climb out easily. (Or at all) The only thing I can think of is cut back the freeze frames, make all characters have a slower DR (like Ryu), and slightly increase the buffer. There isn’t a magic fix on this one, but try to make a large problem a smaller problem.
Actually that could be doable. They already extended buffer window to 8. Freeze frames are 11. Reducing them by 3 gets it down to 8. Then a balancing pass for each character to slow down the drive rush as needed.
I think it’s a nuisance but I find it happening more when I fight certain characters. I think a larger buffer windows would be good. Ive experienced it happen less after the patch tho
The mechanic has so many flaws, ive seen people say the freeze frame is to make it checkable. Problem with that is you can make the DR short with jabs the various slide effects ect make checking it somewhat inconsistent
Actually I think you hit on something there. What if it existed only as a cancel on block or hit (including projectiles) but no longer existed as a whiff cancel or raw DR? I like this a lot better.
Necessarily u shouldnt even need a read to check something imo certain drs like juri and deejay are just insane and def gets me wen it comes to pressing or not
This happened in Guilty Gear Xrd with YRC being an oppressive mechanic that eats inputs. The easiest solution is to make the freeze frame LONGER. Note that Supers also freeze the screen and can eat inputs, but if you were in a neutral state, this gives you the opportunity to course correct with a different answer OR the same answer as before. If the freeze frame is longer for Drive Rush, it won't fix the input being eaten, but it will make the situation where you do nothing much less jarring. So say the freeze frame of DR is 20 frames now, the freeze frame that ate your input should give you just enough time to reinput what was eaten OR change out into a Super/DP/poke to stuff the DR. It may make the gameplay slower when DRs happen in neutral, but people won't be put in a crummy misinput situation.
I think maybe the screen freeze should be extended to between 15-20 frames. I think this puts it on the edge of reactable, so you can input your counter at within the 5 frame buffer window or whatever it is. I think this will also give the offense a little bit more time to think of a plan during those random scramble drive rush situations late in games.
Extending the freeze frames doesn't help with the problem as you can't know for sure whether your input will be dropped or not. Doing your input twice on every single drive rush just in case is NOT a solution. 15-20 frames is VERY difficult to react to btw. when you're not looking for something.
I know I'm more casual then not but this video made me feel like a real deal casual lol the frame math had me like dam, these dudes really catch all these little flaws. Great video.
@@mdz_jimmy we're the exact same age lol but ya I really didn't get into the intricate details until sf5. I've learned the most from your videos. So thanks for helping out us slow ass Americans lol we appreciate it
@@tavinwallack24 I didn't mean age, I was referencing the amount of tutorials and explanations since SFIV. You NEED to learn this stuff if you want to explain it to an audience and honestly: everytime I set out to make a video like this I learn at least 1 or 2 things I didn't know before! ;) Glad you enjoy the videos my man!
That mentality is why people think all characters are the same. They dont know anything about frame data and being +/- so they really think no character has an advantage over another
@kevmo2990 true. I don't understand how people don't know it if they play the game or watch this kind of content. It's almost like the people who don't know are children. I'm very aware of all that but I'm not even close to him jimmy or other top players.
It seems to me that the software should, when the freeze frames end, look back for the number of frames it usually does to determine inputs when a button is pressed, but add the length of the freeze frames. So you normally have 11 frames to input a QCF, add the 11 drive rush freeze frames. The game won't desync that way. Correct me if I am wrong.
I think you could increase the freeze on the drive rush by enough that a player can recognise that the drive rush freeze is happening and correct their inputs. This would break drive rush as a reaction check.
What if when drive rush is done in neutral, it has no screen freeze but instead its startup is ten frames slower, but if done from a hit, it stays as is? That way combos stay intact but it wont eat inputs when you need to respond to it
@@mdz_jimmyWhat you explained is different from what I suggested, since Im suggesting the freeze frames be deleted and replaced with startup only when its in neutral and not during recovery for whiff punishing
_"You did explain but what you explained is different from what I suggested, since Im suggesting the freeze frames be deleted only when its in neutral and not during recovery for whiff punishing"_ He did address it in neutral. That's exactly what he addressed. Without the freeze frames, a DR opponent is instantly on top of you from halfscreen.
@@libertyprime9307 no you're misunderstanding me please reread my comment. What i suggested was that when in neutral, the screen freeze is deleted and the startup frames are increased so drive rush is not instant and you have the same time to respond. When not in neutral it behaves exactly the same as it is right now. It addresses the whiff punish issue and combos routes since these are not in neutral.
(still around the start of the video, putting this here before i forget) ive noticed my SPD buffer works fine during the freeze. all other inputs have problems, but have gotten buffered SPDs during those freezes. also, ive seen many people use the freeze offensively. works really well to fuck up peoples wake-ups.
From what you've explained and you have great points. This mechanic is cemented and it feels like these "issues" that have risen up from drive rush are side effects of the games core programing. If the dev team changed anything more than the frame data from drive rush it would just be something completely different. I have a feeling drive reversal is the only counter for situations like these where an opponent drive rushes while buttons are being buffered. We might see an ULTRA Street Fighter 6 where we get Drive skills or other versions of drive rush. While the mechanic is flawed there are still fundamental strategies that can be done to avoid these types of scenarios. I doubt there really is a fix for this input problem.
This is a great video. The example with Akuma is amazing. Not sure how Capcom could fix this but it seems very bad. I can imagine that by year 5 causing recovery frames like that will be a deliberate tactic if nothing is done to fix it.
Yea this is one of the main reasons why I avoid buffering most of the time, the potential risk of Drive rush eating my buffers is just too high. But honestly finding a fix to drive rush will be very difficult. Like you said, Drive rush would need to be reworked from the ground up but that would also require them to basically change everything else about the game from combos, Oki, Mix-ups, etc and that's probably not gonna happen. It's almost like asking a chef to remove the eggs that they used to bake the cake that they prepared it just simply isn't possible unless they throw out the cake entirely and make a new one. As a community we'll need to find ways to deal with drive rush but for better or for worse it's here to stay.
Definitely for worse I can’t imagine losing final game final round with money on the line all because someone wanted to drive rush at me and my dp don’t come out and I die for it
@@leemooreStudiopunk would purposely "pause" the game to ruin his opponent, he explained it earlier he use this to beat daigo. But for big bird case that is unrelated.
This is such a great video, It's not been well explained/explored before like this to show the problem with the system. EDIT: i was thinking about this some more, what if that 11f freeze is treated sort of like the wake up reversal buffer where the highest priority action performed in that time is executed at the time the freeze ends? This might also require using some of the rollback architecture?
I've found that drive reversal does this too, and Jamie's 4th drink. I have had problems with using Kimberly jdmp coming out as Jmp and tk tatsu getting the jump input eaten, meaning I just get regular tatsu
perhaps keep things as they are and ignore the inputs that happen during the freeze UNLESS a button was pressed and then take into account directions pressed before the button and trigger the appropriate special move immediately. Otherwise don't play the inputs during the freeze, but if a button is pressed shortly after the freeze then take into account the directions that were pressed during the freeze try match it to any possible special moves the player might have been trying to do. So those direction inputs don't get played but if a button is pressed they will be fed to the command recognition code for special moves. I'm not a professional video game programmer but I have designed and coded my own fighting game before and this is probably how I'd try to solve this problem
Honestly with how DR is ingrained in this game it's most likely harder to fix than we realise. I'm sure capcom has known about the issue for awhile now.
This is a tough problem since DR was designed to be deeply rooted to the game. Adding more frames of delay when a DR happens is a bandaid to the problem and reducing the damage for a DR combo was likely another balancing concept they have considered. To fully fix the problem it would be a complete rework so I would imagine Capcom will keep on adding small adjustments to make it “fair” for this issue. The best they can do that would require the least amount of work is make DR more expensive ie use 2 bars and give a higher damage reduction for a DR combo.
I might be misunderstanding something but generally buffer only applies to moves with startup, so the scenario at 18:04 is impossible regardless of how long the buffer is. Things like walking and blocking are instant, and can't be buffered (which is why micro walk combos are so hard). Buffering also doesn't desync the the game, it just plays the highest priority input on the soonest possible frame. And yes, you can have variable input buffer, that's why specials in SF4 are fairly lenient while one frame links and punishes are still frame perfect. So unless SF6's engine is fundamentally different, increasing the buffer during the freeze should mostly fix the issue.
Yeah that was my guess as well, but just to play devil's advocate depending on what's actually coded there, implementing this edge case could be a nightmare.
I think they should just rework the frame data in the game and make drive rush just for combos and Ex meter that brings Neutral back to SF and the freeze frames wont really matter because its only happening in combos or block strings it also removes slow fireball drive rush unintentionally
The title and thumbnail secure my like. Drive Rush is the worst fighting game mechanic of all time. If I read that they're going to do it, then why does it eat my jump input or another button so I can't counter it? It literally punishes you knowing what your opponent is going to do. It's absolutely the worst and if it was just outright removed from SF6, then this might be the best SF of all time. But with it in ... eh.
Great analysis. Being aware of how this works (or doesn't work) is helpful so people can at least understand why they are missing inputs. I wonder if there is a way to make the freeze frames only affect the player doing the drive rush? Like, instead of freezing the whole game, just freeze the player doing the drive rush? This could be impossible, or it may introduce more problems. Also, don't other fighting games have similar mechanics? And if so, how do those games deal with it?
If you're only freezing the player doing the drive rush then that nerfs drive rush as a whiff punish tool. It's not a bad suggestion though and I can see Capcom considering this in the future.
I hate I can’t keep my saved replays for a long time and the fact that sometimes it doesn’t display the round results. It’s a PITA to get to your own replays as well.
How about specifically using drive rush for blockstring cancels and combos and cut the neutral drive rush since thats where all of the issues are coming from.
@@dwaynemcfadden731 I would agree but thats where the line is for confusing game design. Existing players know how to raw drive rush. But imagine that the only time a new player can practice raw drive rush is during a juggle combo... How would they even know they can do that? It would be bad game design.
@@yotengoleche thats where tutorials and explanations come into play, pro gamers tend to grasp gaming concepts at a decent speed so stuff can be taught and a reasonable pace, even devs and can chip in to explain game mechanics, so new players aren't without resources to draw from.
We're still having this convo after its already been addressed that it doesnt eat the input? It pauses the game so the buffer system itself also gets paused
i dont really understand that inputs need to be delayed 11 frames. I dont think that is how buffers work. So lets say you backdash as akuma. and you do your fireball,. currently there is a 5 frame buffer to see you press LP and then it analyzes however many frames back to see if you did a special move. Now lets say they drive rush. It shifts when the buffer is, into the future. But couldnt you just extend that buffer window by 11 frames to have it look back further for your input for both directions(to see if you did a special or super) and to see if you pressed a button. You could make it a toggle for instance for each player, because i assume there would be some behavior that would be kind of funky, but you could just make a toggle called "drive rush extended buffer", because technically it would only extend the buffer window for one player and only when the opponent did drive rush.
Nah because if the buffer window is too large then it will start giving you things you didn't want, like specials or supers. Because remember, the opponent chooses when to DR. You can't play like normal and then suddenly with no warning you got long ass buffer windows, it will fuck you up.
@@libertyprime9307 Your conflating 2 things in the game The buffer, and the move interpreter buffer. The move interpreter buffer doesn't have to be extended. so you do a backdash for example, you have currently a 5 frame window where it will accept an input, this can be a special move, a punch, a super a move or whatever. and it will come out on the first possible frame when you are actionable. What happens when drive rush happens is it shifts this 5 frame window of accepting an input, so you press a button and it isn't in this 5 frame window, so thus, when you are actionable, you do nothing. This does not mean that move interpreter has to be longer. the move interpreter looks back at input however many frames from when you pressed punch to determine what move you intended to do. So extending the buffer window would only affect it, if you ALREADY did the super motion or already did the special motion when you pressed the button.
Maybe there is no problem at all and its all just a matter of perspective. Jimmy has highlighted that drive rush doesn't eat normals and supers. Which means that drive rush is ALWAYS reactable, even if you are in burnout. Conceptually, drive rush is an attack option. Any other attacking option would limit the options of your opponent. Why shouldn't drive rush also have the ability to cancel extended inputs on recovery?? Who determines this? Drive rush is always reactable with normals and supers. Why should extended buffered inputs be allowed to interrupt drive rush as well? I say there is no problem, the game is fine as it is. Jimmy is simply special pleading to react to drive rush the way HE wants to react to it ,with OD fireball or something similar with no recovery penalty. Which actually negates the entire purpose of drive rush , that is meant to get IN on an opponent. If EX fireballs interrupt driverush then you can interrupt drive rush at a distance and negates the entire purpose of driverush.
Nah this is a super dumb take. You can go about balance in many different ways in fighting games, but a mechanic that activates when your opponent chooses, and it eats your inputs, is a line you don't cross. It's different than limiting the opponent's options in the sense that rock beats scissors. Because this is like, you didn't even get to choose scissors, you just lose automatically. It's taking away agency.
@libertyprime9307 Did anyone say that it wasn't taking away agency? Off course it's taking away agency. The point was that it is JUSTIFIED to take away SOME agency. I raised the question to which ,if you weren't so concerned with ad hominem attacks, you would have engaged. Drive rush was conceptualized as a tool to get IN on an opponent. Jimmy wants to be able to back dash and chuck fireballs as a response to driverush with no recovery penalty. As I see it, the devs conceptualized driverush to sharpen gameplay . If you can simply jump over it , or backdash and chuck fireballs with no recovery penalty, driverush in itself loses a lot of its original purpose. Maybe you can engage that instead of resorting to ad hominem .
My guy, that's not what Jimmy wants. What he wants is for the DR to not mess with the internalized recovery timing enforced through the entirety of the game. It isn't about reactions, it's about the game doing what I told it to do. The other guy made no ad hominem, he just gave his reason as to why the take from the op is actually dumb.
@lukdb I understood what Jimmy wants. Neither you or that guy engaged MY central contention, i.e. drive rush SHOULD interfere with the internal recovery process, driverush SHOULD limit the number of ways an opponent can react. YOUR reasoning is that the agency of the player is sacrosanct, and must be maintained at all costs and in all situations. What reasons have you or Jimmy advanced to demand this ? Nothing, no reason whatsoever, other than a childish I always want to react in the way that I want to react with no recovery penalty (which btw is an ad hominem attack on my part on YOUR position...but accordingto you this is not ad hominem but fair game right?). Newsflash: go make your own fighting game. The fact is driverush is already always reactable even in burnout. However, it must be respected in that certain inputs will not be acknowledged if made within that window of recovery. I believe the present system is the best and most exciting.
@lukdb Another way to look at this situation is to realize what the devs INTENDED. Conceptually, driverush is SUPPOSED to beat backdash+fireball (similar to how shimmies beat throws). If the devs were to grant your fireball coming out in that situation during the recovery of the backdash, driverush would still have to beat it. So now they would have to animate the fireball being canceled by the driverush only so that Jimmy could feel happy that his inputs were being respected. It is so much easier to simply NOT have the fireball come out in the first place since in any event it is meant to be beaten by driverush.
2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2
Remove raw drive rush, is a dumb mechanic anyways even if it worked properly
I play a lot of fighting games....and I mean a lot a lot. I have more misinputs in SF6 than any other game. That's not just misinputs because of drive rush screen freeze but everywhere. I swear almost every match I play I have a misinput. Yeah I main Lily and I know there's issues with overlapping inputs and certain things being prioritized. It still bugs the crap out of me and I wish it wasn't an issue.
Damn, great find. I just today was frustrated by the same thing, but with OD reversal/super after parry. Even my jumps were getting eaten. --- A workaround is to hold the input/button you want to come out during the freeze frame. So for the fireball after parry in your case, hold the final punch button (or forward+punch) during the freeze frame. The fireball input will come out every time. This was taught by FChamp to Chris Tatarian in one of their videos. FChamp says Marvel Infinite players had to learn how to get their inputs out because of their own freeze frame stuff. Of course, similar to what you said, the problem with this is being READY to do something unnatural like holding the button during the recovery of another move. Who's ready for that when the circumstance to hold the button is entirely dictated by when the opponent decides to Drive Rush? You can really only be ready when in neutral and not pressing buttons, not when you were already doing stuff. So the above is a workaround, not a solution. And still not ideal.
So I do like the idea of removing the freeze frame but increasing the startup on the Drive Rush. I don't think it will be useless if they find the right amount of frames to slow it down by. Maybe 11 frames is perfect. Maybe 5. Maybe 8. I don't think drive rush will be useless if it started up slower... you still get +4 frame advantage and neutral skip. It's like how a lot of slower moves in this game are still good because of the reward and/or frame advantage you get after... like Dictator's HP, or Double Knee Press. Or Ken's Dragonlash. Or Lily's Condor Spire. Basically, I think if you slow it down a bit, Drive Rush will be like a universal Ken Dragonlash, or Cammy Spin Knuckle. Situational and reactable, but comes with good rewards. I think if Capcom releases a different live public beta build of this change, alongside the regular version being live, it would be a great way to experiment and get data on how the changes to Drive Rush would affect the game, and great way to get players' feedback.
I will test out the trick of holding the punch button but even if it works it's still really odd... are you supposed to relearn how to do special moves just to avoid an issue in a game mechanic? It seems to silly to me having to use a different way to enter every single special move just for SF6.
maybe you should see that in that way: I think theres no desync. the buffer must be expend backyard for 11 eleven frames at the start of the DR and at the first available frame (neutral) for the defender the buffer must be played. for each frame the game display the buffer is reduce by 1frames. If you see any issue with that i would love to talk about. :) also thx a lot for your content.
Hey man, I'm not sure I understand your suggestion. The game is supposed to buffer all inputs during the DR freeze and then play it back when the freeze ends? So what is the game supposed to do about your inputs that you do during those 11 frames when the DR freeze ends? Just ignore them? Sounds like a very bad thing to do.
@@mdz_jimmy no absoluty not ignore the input. what I propose is to executing what the buffer read in those eleven frames of freeze while your in a recovery state and playing it at the first available frame (neutral states)is like what they did in the patch by expending the buffer in okizeme scenario. i'm not a primary english speaker sorry about that. I hope Ive been clear this time ^^!
When you talk to people who have droped the game this and the risk/reward with perfect parry are the 2 most common complaints. The fact capcom has acknowledged this then done nothing about it for over a year is both funny and frustrating
As I said in the video it's not easy to fix the DR issue without completely changing how DR works so I understand why they don't want to touch it. As for perfect parry risk/reward they DID end up making it a lot weaker by scaling drive gauge damage on perfect parry.
@mdz_jimmy Im not sure if this would fix it up slowing down DR across the board and removing the freeze maybe help? Yeah haha I think its more doing parry attempts and it whiffing but only getting a throw punish is the part people ive talked to hate about it, im guessing they want something like in SFV like gills parries on whiff
I discussed how removing the DR freeze would impact the mechanic in my video but to summarize: changing it like this would completely break the mechanic. As for perfect parry: You seem to be implying that perfect parry should be buffed? For competitive play pretty much everyone agrees that perfect parry is too strong (not too weak!) so it was nerfed for season 2.
@mdz_jimmy oh with perfect parry im meaning like an attempt that whiifs like tapping it in block strings should be a big punish like in SFV if you bait them. Cause in 6 you can just hold it with the attempt and worst thing that happens is you get thrown for a bit more damage
@@exiaR2x78 In season 2 they extended the recovery on parry attempts so it's easier to punish now. Yeah you have to throw but the punish counter throw is very damaging both for health but also for the drive gauge. I don't think this is a problem.
Honestly, i feel like with SF6, capcom tried to mashup different mechanics from different iterations of the series, but didnt implement any of them well in this game. Back to 3S, i guess...
I know people have made mods where drive rush doesn't stop time for a sec and it shows that it messes with combos and stuff, but I still think drive rush shouldnt time freeze the game and eat inputs. Just patch it so the combos still work.
“You get hit by a sweep in Street Fighter 4 and you guess for your life until you die” Yes absolutely. Meterless invincible reversible gave you more options but this was the experience. I loved SF4, maybe my favourite game of all time but the game has improved in many important ways.
Instead of completely removing Drive Rush, they could fix Drive Rush by making it only come out by cancelling into it from a button. Throwing it out in neutral is what's causing the chaos.
@@dragonic22Yep. I can see that. And some characters need drive rush to enforce their mixups on oki too. When changing system mechanics there's always gonna be a trade off, whether it be gameplay or characters. If the devs can find an alternate fix though I'm all ears.
Honestly, I would prefer to see drive rush gone. Its too strong in my opinion. Very oppressive on defense, and does not benefit some characters as much as others. I really really dont like parry, but drive rush is 5x worse. If they gave all characters the same drive rush distance and speed, then I wouldnt have a problem, but I feel like its not as useful on Dhalsim as it is for Bison for example, and I just dont like game mechanics that favors one character more than others. Atleast with parry and Drive impact, they are the same across all characters.
Even with no recovery, DR will eat a jump input. I notice this at the beginning of rounds way too often that its just best not to jump at the start of a match.
The solution to this problem isn't as complicated as you make it seem. You just extend that "reversal out of block/recovery" buffer forward to cover all of the Drive Rush freeze frames. You don't have to replay all the inputs one frame at a time - the reversal action just happens.
This might seem like a reasonable thing to do on wakeup but not all the other scenarios that I showed. Even on wakeup it might cause problems but what is the game supposed to do about your inputs in the scenario with the jump that I showed with Akuma? Just delay your inputs and desync the game? When is it going to sync back up and in general it just seems odd to lose control of your character for 11 frames when there's a drive rush.
@@mdz_jimmy There is no delaying and replaying of inputs, it just does whatever is the highest priority action on the frame that you recover. It wouldn't help in the Akuma situation where you are in air and expected to land, but in all the other cases it would.
@@soggytoast111 Oh wait you're just explaining how drive rush works? I understand how drive rush works but my video is about drive rush extending recovery frames in certain scenarios (wakeup, backdash, perfect parry recovery, etc.) which effectively deletes your inputs. I'm not talking about the "normal" behavior of drive rush playing back your most recent input after the DR freeze.
Which is worse to you, freeze frames with drive rush and possible inputs eaten...or no freeze frames with drive rush and make it a few frames slower? I personally would rather have an almost unreactible drive rush that i can check whether im expecting it or reacting to it rather than have inputs eaten because of screen freeze. Misinputs are just the worst any given day.
If you make it "a few frames slower" it'll be completely useless for high level play... you can't have your cake and eat it too on this one. Either you remove the freeze frames and make drive rush completely broken (not good!) or you need to completely rework drive rush and the rest of the system mechanics to make deeper changes to how everything works... it's not that simple.
What the question really boils down to is: Do you want to play a game with hard to react to moves/mechanics or a game that fudges with your inputs? What's bad is right now SF6 is doing both.
@@devilcatv2 I think it's obvious drive rush should be reworked but you can't do it without significantly changing SF6 as a game so if anything we might see this later on in its lifespan.
@@devilcatv2 Yeah but to be fair I think all SF games have elements that are frustrating like that! 😅 This discussion happens with every new SF iteration lol
Yeah it was this and the terrible buffer on wakeup that made me drop SF6 to be honest. There's few things more frustrating in a FG than inputs getting eaten or not coming out, never had it happen as often in other games either locally/online or heck even delay based games.
Ah that explain i can not special while enemy drive rush, i thought my input was not fast enough 😅. No wonder i always lose at drive rush, thank you next time i just do normal😊
@ellguy1965 Probably, Drive Rush is somewhat overpowered because when you see a green light coming toward you, most of the time, your instinct tells you to react with a special or OD special and DI since just blocking and parrying puts you in a disadvantageous position to frame lock and throw. So Drive Revesal is the safest bet, noted 😀
No matter how much this topic gets brought up, its always wrong, DR does not eat input, it changes input timing(which makes it feel like its eating inputs)
This technicality is explained in this video and doesn't change anything about the consequences: DR effectively deletes your inputs if you're unlucky with the input timing change. So no it's not wrong to say DR deletes inputs... it does. You also left out actual input deletion by DR whenever you buffer moves: If you do a normal into a DR cancel and sombody happens to do DR at that time then you only get an empty parry... this has nothing to do with input timing, it's literally DR deleting any move you did before the final one.
![Insane Combos, Comebacks & More! [Stream Highlights 113]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9BSoGzrGhaY/mqdefault.jpg)
![[UNCUT] "บอสณวัฒน์" แฉ! แหล่งซุกเงินแก๊งบอส ขยันผิดที่ไม่กี่ปีก็เข้าคุก l คนดังนั่งเคลียร์ l17ต.ค.67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/BL56qIfXYZM/mqdefault.jpg)
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 83 วันนี้!! คู่เอก "พันฤทธิ์ vs ซุปเปอร์บอล วันของโอม MBK"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1b4pkKHa_Fk/mqdefault.jpg)
It's really funny that Capcom nailed their rollback netcode, thus fixing the issue of inputs being dropped/eaten due to the game pausing unpredictably, and then gave both players the ability to pause the game unpredictably.
LOL accurate
BRUH, we no gonna complain about screen freeze. Both players can do this.
I never took sf6 seriously anyway
@@sethxtekkenGood for you
@sethxtekken both boxers physically could start kicking the other, but we agree it's best for the sport if that's against the rules.
The screen freeze should be addressed but as the video shows it's a cursed problem. Every conceivable solution has knock-on effects on the rest of the game
The DR buffer freeze really is the only real problem that I have with this game. But I have no idea how the devs go about fixing it.
Why time freeze is the thing at the first place it’s totally unnecessary, if they want to make dr reactable just make it universally slower wtf isn’t it that simple
The frustrating thing is capcom initally said this wasnt intended and they were going to fix it. Its now been around a year since they said that and nothing
They could probably have a buffer so the input comes out on the soonest possible frame
@@justjunker699 making it slower would kill a lot of combo routes
@@justjunker699 this would make drive rush just feel slow. It should be possible to accurately extend the buffer frames for the drive rush to fix this, though I imagine making it play nice with Rollback is tricky.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks SF6 menus are just too much. 😂
I wish the Replay filter would save your settings so we don't have to keep messing with it. Same for viewing profile phases; it resets when you merely turned pages...
I'm a new casual player that got it cuz of a friend, and yeah that was my very first reaction with the game.
How is such a big company in Capcom, and the dev team that should be experienced throughout all of their games make SUCH a garbage UI? The UX on the menu is absolutely terrible, maybe FGC/SF6 players are used to it and whatever but coming from other games or other competitive games it's all a "?????" moment for me, cuz you could have just copied what EVERYONE else does in their UI.
Oh and also, just like in classic, old Japanese company that copies what the AAA companies in the west do with a 2 year delay. WTF is up with making the most meaningless "CAPCOM ID" system? Even other recent games have been dropping that useless, annoying, stupid
lEts MAke OuR oWn CliENt/internal system
Helldivers 2 got A B S O L U T E L Y rightfully shat on for that shit with the PSN account that nobody wants to make on PC, inviting someone to a custom lobby in SF6 is so unnecessarily long for no good reason. Just integrate your system with Steam FFS, all the basis in the API is already there because. *cough* Valve has honestly decades of experience in talented people over you Capcom.
Even just most other Co-op games on Steam.
You go to your friendlists, or you get invited through Steam Chat, you click "Join" once and guess what. I'm alraedy in the fucking lobby with the game started up, it's all done in one click and I don't even have the game booted up, it boots it up for me, and it joins the lobby for me, I don't have to do a THING.
Long rant, but how garbage and shitty the UI/UX is in SF6 in CURRENT YEAR is absolutely baffling to me, FGC/SF6 players may be used to it, it doesn't change the fact that it's just absolutely garbage for no good reason, no good reason at all. All you had to do was use systems ALREADY IN PLACE, or just COPY other games and that was it bro, The fuck is a "CFN" anyway
EDIT: And I really gotta add this example. Even APEX LEGENDS, with EA/Respawn having their old obsession over their own client/store in Origin, once the game went to Steam guess what, they properly integrated their game into Steam, Because Apex Legends is that old, yes you still need an origin account but at least once I do that I don't feel this weird separation between Origin/Steam. You only see Origin the first time you connect the accounts and never again have to interact with that shit ever.
@@r1ght_n0w agree, making a Capcom ID was the biggest headache on the planet just to be able to even play the game I paid for
@@r1ght_n0wwriting speeches
This eating of inputs happened to me so many times and I wasn't sure why it was happening until now ... I hope Capcom finds a way to fix that without breaking the game.
Mankind: "We're gonna colonize Mars yo"
Also mankind: "Nah bruh OD DP at the same time as a random drive rush? what are we? GODS?"
So when it freezes for a bit it messes with inputs, got it.
I like you attitude brother. Doesn't need fixing we just learned something knew about it
@Jtruth1986 it does need fixing it shouldn't do it at all.
Register correct input is the most basic demand for a fighting game
The fact that DR will even eat jump inputs just makes it really frustrating sometimes. Not only do you not jump but because you were expecting to jump you’re not even blocking and get hit!
Sometimes the best counter to certain drive rush normals is neutral jump, moves that slide forward with added hitstun or blockstun, do multiple hits or are cancellable so you can't Di or perfect parry (or you can but it's not worth the risk). Jamie's 3 hit hp is a good example, also Aki fireball Dr fhk comes to mind.
Good analysis Jimmy. Solid content despite these problems in the game
THANK YOU JIMMY! This issue has been maddening since day 1. Checking since rush is so much harder than checking dashes in SFV simply because of this input eating nonsense. Not enough people are bringing attention to this issue, especially in such an illuminating way. You rock.
Making it 11 frames slower would just be giving everyone solar plexus
I’m noticing it even more against Bison. There’s probably no difference between characters DRs but it does feel worse.
Speed and distance is different across the cast
It's probably just due to how much he drive rushes since his is so good
Lmao what bison has one of the fastest if not the best drive rush full screen and fast af
@@reggiemoore755 I think by “no difference” he just meant there’s no difference in the freeze-frames at the beginning of a DR
@@plannedtuna8293 yeah I meant this. And it does feels worse because of his walk and DR speed.
DR in neutral is unfixable imo, unless you want to remove it only in neutral and butcher tons of character’s combos.
Capcom dug a hole with this one that we can’t climb out easily. (Or at all)
The only thing I can think of is cut back the freeze frames, make all characters have a slower DR (like Ryu), and slightly increase the buffer. There isn’t a magic fix on this one, but try to make a large problem a smaller problem.
Actually that could be doable.
They already extended buffer window to 8.
Freeze frames are 11. Reducing them by 3 gets it down to 8. Then a balancing pass for each character to slow down the drive rush as needed.
Indeed, the only way to fix this would be to rework everything and remove the freeze frames from DR.
I think it’s a nuisance but I find it happening more when I fight certain characters. I think a larger buffer windows would be good. Ive experienced it happen less after the patch tho
The mechanic has so many flaws, ive seen people say the freeze frame is to make it checkable. Problem with that is you can make the DR short with jabs the various slide effects ect make checking it somewhat inconsistent
Actually I think you hit on something there. What if it existed only as a cancel on block or hit (including projectiles) but no longer existed as a whiff cancel or raw DR? I like this a lot better.
The ones who suffer the most are those who has the most accurate read on opponent wanted to dr.
Necessarily u shouldnt even need a read to check something imo certain drs like juri and deejay are just insane and def gets me wen it comes to pressing or not
I want my move to come out. I’ll deal with the awkward slo-motion as long as I snuff out the drive rush attempt
This happened in Guilty Gear Xrd with YRC being an oppressive mechanic that eats inputs.
The easiest solution is to make the freeze frame LONGER. Note that Supers also freeze the screen and can eat inputs, but if you were in a neutral state, this gives you the opportunity to course correct with a different answer OR the same answer as before.
If the freeze frame is longer for Drive Rush, it won't fix the input being eaten, but it will make the situation where you do nothing much less jarring. So say the freeze frame of DR is 20 frames now, the freeze frame that ate your input should give you just enough time to reinput what was eaten OR change out into a Super/DP/poke to stuff the DR. It may make the gameplay slower when DRs happen in neutral, but people won't be put in a crummy misinput situation.
I think maybe the screen freeze should be extended to between 15-20 frames. I think this puts it on the edge of reactable, so you can input your counter at within the 5 frame buffer window or whatever it is. I think this will also give the offense a little bit more time to think of a plan during those random scramble drive rush situations late in games.
Extending the freeze frames doesn't help with the problem as you can't know for sure whether your input will be dropped or not. Doing your input twice on every single drive rush just in case is NOT a solution. 15-20 frames is VERY difficult to react to btw. when you're not looking for something.
I had heard "Drive Rush eats inputs" over and over and it is only after I watched your video that I feel that I understand it. Thanks!
I know I'm more casual then not but this video made me feel like a real deal casual lol the frame math had me like dam, these dudes really catch all these little flaws.
Great video.
Yeah unfortunately all these details really matter so at some point you'll learn how this works when you've been around as long as I have 😂
@@mdz_jimmy we're the exact same age lol but ya I really didn't get into the intricate details until sf5. I've learned the most from your videos. So thanks for helping out us slow ass Americans lol we appreciate it
@@tavinwallack24 I didn't mean age, I was referencing the amount of tutorials and explanations since SFIV. You NEED to learn this stuff if you want to explain it to an audience and honestly: everytime I set out to make a video like this I learn at least 1 or 2 things I didn't know before! ;) Glad you enjoy the videos my man!
That mentality is why people think all characters are the same. They dont know anything about frame data and being +/- so they really think no character has an advantage over another
@kevmo2990 true. I don't understand how people don't know it if they play the game or watch this kind of content. It's almost like the people who don't know are children. I'm very aware of all that but I'm not even close to him jimmy or other top players.
It seems to me that the software should, when the freeze frames end, look back for the number of frames it usually does to determine inputs when a button is pressed, but add the length of the freeze frames. So you normally have 11 frames to input a QCF, add the 11 drive rush freeze frames. The game won't desync that way. Correct me if I am wrong.
I think you could increase the freeze on the drive rush by enough that a player can recognise that the drive rush freeze is happening and correct their inputs. This would break drive rush as a reaction check.
It would remain functional as a whiff punish tool but in neutral this makes drive rush very weak.
Yeah, I think a nerf to it in neutral would be a good thing as well. Getting a bit tired of the Dee Jay jump scares.
What if when drive rush is done in neutral, it has no screen freeze but instead its startup is ten frames slower, but if done from a hit, it stays as is? That way combos stay intact but it wont eat inputs when you need to respond to it
That would completely change combos and punishes.
I explained why this is a bad idea in my video.
@@mdz_jimmyWhat you explained is different from what I suggested, since Im suggesting the freeze frames be deleted and replaced with startup only when its in neutral and not during recovery for whiff punishing
_"You did explain but what you explained is different from what I suggested, since Im suggesting the freeze frames be deleted only when its in neutral and not during recovery for whiff punishing"_
He did address it in neutral. That's exactly what he addressed. Without the freeze frames, a DR opponent is instantly on top of you from halfscreen.
@@libertyprime9307 no you're misunderstanding me please reread my comment. What i suggested was that when in neutral, the screen freeze is deleted and the startup frames are increased so drive rush is not instant and you have the same time to respond. When not in neutral it behaves exactly the same as it is right now. It addresses the whiff punish issue and combos routes since these are not in neutral.
They could just animate the freeze frames essentially make the startup slower in tandem with removing the freeze frames
That shit has been killing my neutral jump input and it drives me fucking crazy.
They should just conditionally delay your inputs by 11 frames if they happen during recovery and your opponent has performed a drive rush.
The difference is the range and speed which Bison can get to you. Its faster than pretty much anyones. So yea theres a difference
(still around the start of the video, putting this here before i forget)
ive noticed my SPD buffer works fine during the freeze. all other inputs have problems, but have gotten buffered SPDs during those freezes.
also, ive seen many people use the freeze offensively. works really well to fuck up peoples wake-ups.
From what you've explained and you have great points. This mechanic is cemented and it feels like these "issues" that have risen up from drive rush are side effects of the games core programing. If the dev team changed anything more than the frame data from drive rush it would just be something completely different. I have a feeling drive reversal is the only counter for situations like these where an opponent drive rushes while buttons are being buffered. We might see an ULTRA Street Fighter 6 where we get Drive skills or other versions of drive rush. While the mechanic is flawed there are still fundamental strategies that can be done to avoid these types of scenarios. I doubt there really is a fix for this input problem.
I am guessing this will be fixed when they release the inevitable Street Fighter 6 - Championship Edition.
This is a great video. The example with Akuma is amazing. Not sure how Capcom could fix this but it seems very bad. I can imagine that by year 5 causing recovery frames like that will be a deliberate tactic if nothing is done to fix it.
Yea this is one of the main reasons why I avoid buffering most of the time, the potential risk of Drive rush eating my buffers is just too high. But honestly finding a fix to drive rush will be very difficult. Like you said, Drive rush would need to be reworked from the ground up but that would also require them to basically change everything else about the game from combos, Oki, Mix-ups, etc and that's probably not gonna happen. It's almost like asking a chef to remove the eggs that they used to bake the cake that they prepared it just simply isn't possible unless they throw out the cake entirely and make a new one. As a community we'll need to find ways to deal with drive rush but for better or for worse it's here to stay.
Definitely for worse I can’t imagine losing final game final round with money on the line all because someone wanted to drive rush at me and my dp don’t come out and I die for it
@@ShizuSan69 lol You know that's probably exactly what happened to Big Bird in that last set against Punk's Cammy at EVO.
@@leemooreStudio ? Didn't Punk just jump in and Big Bird missed the DP?
@@plannedtuna8293shhh we are making up stuff now to justify how its the game and not us
@@leemooreStudiopunk would purposely "pause" the game to ruin his opponent, he explained it earlier he use this to beat daigo. But for big bird case that is unrelated.
11f of additional recovery to account for is nuts
This is such a great video, It's not been well explained/explored before like this to show the problem with the system. EDIT: i was thinking about this some more, what if that 11f freeze is treated sort of like the wake up reversal buffer where the highest priority action performed in that time is executed at the time the freeze ends? This might also require using some of the rollback architecture?
100% agree there should be a "Watch Replay" option after every match
Make sure and turn the Akuma fireball frame kill into a short, thats objectively broken.
If you're really far away it's probably really strong but midscreen you'll get behind Akuma with the drive rush.
so maybe they should add a variable minipause in case you did do something during drive rush , play it out from memory and then back to current time
I've found that drive reversal does this too, and Jamie's 4th drink. I have had problems with using Kimberly jdmp coming out as Jmp and tk tatsu getting the jump input eaten, meaning I just get regular tatsu
Also run follow ups not coming out so I'm just running into an attack 😂
perhaps keep things as they are and ignore the inputs that happen during the freeze UNLESS a button was pressed and then take into account directions pressed before the button and trigger the appropriate special move immediately. Otherwise don't play the inputs during the freeze, but if a button is pressed shortly after the freeze then take into account the directions that were pressed during the freeze try match it to any possible special moves the player might have been trying to do. So those direction inputs don't get played but if a button is pressed they will be fed to the command recognition code for special moves.
I'm not a professional video game programmer but I have designed and coded my own fighting game before and this is probably how I'd try to solve this problem
If this were the case, I feel like I'd be getting random DPs way more than I already do
DRIVE RUSH AND DRIVE IMPACT ARE OVERPOWERED ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU GIVE IT TO NOOBS
Honestly with how DR is ingrained in this game it's most likely harder to fix than we realise. I'm sure capcom has known about the issue for awhile now.
obtaining drive tickets lol
u explained the issue well I really didn't know why it was happening tbh
This is a tough problem since DR was designed to be deeply rooted to the game. Adding more frames of delay when a DR happens is a bandaid to the problem and reducing the damage for a DR combo was likely another balancing concept they have considered. To fully fix the problem it would be a complete rework so I would imagine Capcom will keep on adding small adjustments to make it “fair” for this issue. The best they can do that would require the least amount of work is make DR more expensive ie use 2 bars and give a higher damage reduction for a DR combo.
It looks like Drive Rush “stops time” on its startup
Pretty much what it does, crazy how many people didn’t know how crappy the mechanic is
Appreciate the advanced SF6 math discussion.
Wow. I use to do a lot of backdash and inputs in the corner on SF5. Noe I see why I felt forced to block.
0:39 that would be a hell of a good QoL that this game need !!!!
I might be misunderstanding something but generally buffer only applies to moves with startup, so the scenario at 18:04 is impossible regardless of how long the buffer is. Things like walking and blocking are instant, and can't be buffered (which is why micro walk combos are so hard). Buffering also doesn't desync the the game, it just plays the highest priority input on the soonest possible frame. And yes, you can have variable input buffer, that's why specials in SF4 are fairly lenient while one frame links and punishes are still frame perfect. So unless SF6's engine is fundamentally different, increasing the buffer during the freeze should mostly fix the issue.
Yeah that was my guess as well, but just to play devil's advocate depending on what's actually coded there, implementing this edge case could be a nightmare.
I think they should just rework the frame data in the game and make drive rush just for combos and Ex meter that brings Neutral back to SF and the freeze frames wont really matter because its only happening in combos or block strings it also removes slow fireball drive rush unintentionally
The title and thumbnail secure my like. Drive Rush is the worst fighting game mechanic of all time. If I read that they're going to do it, then why does it eat my jump input or another button so I can't counter it? It literally punishes you knowing what your opponent is going to do. It's absolutely the worst and if it was just outright removed from SF6, then this might be the best SF of all time. But with it in ... eh.
They're definitely not going to remove it, but I wouldn't not be surprised to see changes/additions to the drive system as the game gets older
@@rynzero_they just gotta make drive rush in real time
No pauses, pause only when the game knows a hit connects
For the combos to stay the same.
Yeah, sure, DR is worse than Gems from X Tekken or X Factor in MVC3
I talked about this a lot when the game was still fresh and people thought I was crazy.
I would extend the buffer window for the entire duration of the DR freeze frames
Could it be possible to lab drive rish oki set ups that purposfully eat wake up reversals? I shudder at the thought.
If you hypothetically manage to find a set up that does that correctly, it would lose to wake-up buttons so it would be useless anyway.
Interesting I didn't know perfect parry was like that
Great analysis. Being aware of how this works (or doesn't work) is helpful so people can at least understand why they are missing inputs.
I wonder if there is a way to make the freeze frames only affect the player doing the drive rush? Like, instead of freezing the whole game, just freeze the player doing the drive rush? This could be impossible, or it may introduce more problems.
Also, don't other fighting games have similar mechanics? And if so, how do those games deal with it?
If you're only freezing the player doing the drive rush then that nerfs drive rush as a whiff punish tool. It's not a bad suggestion though and I can see Capcom considering this in the future.
I was thinking this too
I hate I can’t keep my saved replays for a long time and the fact that sometimes it doesn’t display the round results. It’s a PITA to get to your own replays as well.
Add a new button called drive fart and if you drive fart on someone rushing they explode.
Thanks for clearing things up regarding this matter.
PS: I still think you are the best at teaching/explaining 😅
👊😉
Thank you Jimmy for putting some awareness on this issue. This benefits rush down characters. They did Sim mains so dirty in SF6 smh.
Sim kinda is a rushdown in SF6 honestly, but he does it with teleports instead of DR.
@libertyprime9307 his teleports is way too slow compared to USF4 and SFV to even use it as a rushdown tool.
@@leemooreStudio If you're not using it to get in then you don't understand Sim in this game.
Makes me wonder what would happen with modern when you want to input SF6 when you EX Fireball
Driverush basically counter all them people who uses option select.
that explain a LOT !! I was wondering why on earth when I parry I can't do shit .... this is stupid
How about specifically using drive rush for blockstring cancels and combos and cut the neutral drive rush since thats where all of the issues are coming from.
Would be cool, but then we also eliminate combos that require raw drive rush (Usually during juggle combos)
@@yotengoleche juggle combos counts towards the combo portion of my statement so it would still be good.
@@dwaynemcfadden731 I would agree but thats where the line is for confusing game design. Existing players know how to raw drive rush. But imagine that the only time a new player can practice raw drive rush is during a juggle combo... How would they even know they can do that? It would be bad game design.
@@yotengoleche thats where tutorials and explanations come into play, pro gamers tend to grasp gaming concepts at a decent speed so stuff can be taught and a reasonable pace, even devs and can chip in to explain game mechanics, so new players aren't without resources to draw from.
We're still having this convo after its already been addressed that it doesnt eat the input? It pauses the game so the buffer system itself also gets paused
i dont really understand that inputs need to be delayed 11 frames. I dont think that is how buffers work.
So lets say you backdash as akuma. and you do your fireball,. currently there is a 5 frame buffer to see you press LP and then it analyzes however many frames back to see if you did a special move.
Now lets say they drive rush. It shifts when the buffer is, into the future. But couldnt you just extend that buffer window by 11 frames to have it look back further for your input for both directions(to see if you did a special or super) and to see if you pressed a button.
You could make it a toggle for instance for each player, because i assume there would be some behavior that would be kind of funky, but you could just make a toggle called "drive rush extended buffer", because technically it would only extend the buffer window for one player and only when the opponent did drive rush.
Nah because if the buffer window is too large then it will start giving you things you didn't want, like specials or supers.
Because remember, the opponent chooses when to DR. You can't play like normal and then suddenly with no warning you got long ass buffer windows, it will fuck you up.
@@libertyprime9307
Your conflating 2 things in the game
The buffer, and the move interpreter buffer.
The move interpreter buffer doesn't have to be extended.
so you do a backdash for example, you have currently a 5 frame window where it will accept an input, this can be a special move, a punch, a super a move or whatever. and it will come out on the first possible frame when you are actionable.
What happens when drive rush happens is it shifts this 5 frame window of accepting an input, so you press a button and it isn't in this 5 frame window, so thus, when you are actionable, you do nothing.
This does not mean that move interpreter has to be longer. the move interpreter looks back at input however many frames from when you pressed punch to determine what move you intended to do.
So extending the buffer window would only affect it, if you ALREADY did the super motion or already did the special motion when you pressed the button.
@@Jazzyluvsyou100 What's the difference between the buffer and the move interpreter buffer?
well christ, that explains a lot of shit i've been experiencing during online matches! sheeeesh. does drive rush eat supers too?
It doesn't eat supers or normals.
It will just flat out eat a Jump.
Yea it does it u do the super on wake up or in a neutral position if ur opponent Dr right before ur super input
Maybe there is no problem at all and its all just a matter of perspective. Jimmy has highlighted that drive rush doesn't eat normals and supers. Which means that drive rush is ALWAYS reactable, even if you are in burnout. Conceptually, drive rush is an attack option. Any other attacking option would limit the options of your opponent. Why shouldn't drive rush also have the ability to cancel extended inputs on recovery?? Who determines this? Drive rush is always reactable with normals and supers. Why should extended buffered inputs be allowed to interrupt drive rush as well? I say there is no problem, the game is fine as it is. Jimmy is simply special pleading to react to drive rush the way HE wants to react to it ,with OD fireball or something similar with no recovery penalty. Which actually negates the entire purpose of drive rush , that is meant to get IN on an opponent. If EX fireballs interrupt driverush then you can interrupt drive rush at a distance and negates the entire purpose of driverush.
Nah this is a super dumb take.
You can go about balance in many different ways in fighting games, but a mechanic that activates when your opponent chooses, and it eats your inputs, is a line you don't cross.
It's different than limiting the opponent's options in the sense that rock beats scissors. Because this is like, you didn't even get to choose scissors, you just lose automatically. It's taking away agency.
@libertyprime9307 Did anyone say that it wasn't taking away agency? Off course it's taking away agency. The point was that it is JUSTIFIED to take away SOME agency. I raised the question to which ,if you weren't so concerned with ad hominem attacks, you would have engaged. Drive rush was conceptualized as a tool to get IN on an opponent. Jimmy wants to be able to back dash and chuck fireballs as a response to driverush with no recovery penalty. As I see it, the devs conceptualized driverush to sharpen gameplay . If you can simply jump over it , or backdash and chuck fireballs with no recovery penalty, driverush in itself loses a lot of its original purpose. Maybe you can engage that instead of resorting to ad hominem .
My guy, that's not what Jimmy wants. What he wants is for the DR to not mess with the internalized recovery timing enforced through the entirety of the game. It isn't about reactions, it's about the game doing what I told it to do.
The other guy made no ad hominem, he just gave his reason as to why the take from the op is actually dumb.
@lukdb I understood what Jimmy wants. Neither you or that guy engaged MY central contention, i.e. drive rush SHOULD interfere with the internal recovery process, driverush SHOULD limit the number of ways an opponent can react. YOUR reasoning is that the agency of the player is sacrosanct, and must be maintained at all costs and in all situations. What reasons have you or Jimmy advanced to demand this ? Nothing, no reason whatsoever, other than a childish I always want to react in the way that I want to react with no recovery penalty (which btw is an ad hominem attack on my part on YOUR position...but accordingto you this is not ad hominem but fair game right?). Newsflash: go make your own fighting game. The fact is driverush is already always reactable even in burnout. However, it must be respected in that certain inputs will not be acknowledged if made within that window of recovery. I believe the present system is the best and most exciting.
@lukdb Another way to look at this situation is to realize what the devs INTENDED. Conceptually, driverush is SUPPOSED to beat backdash+fireball (similar to how shimmies beat throws). If the devs were to grant your fireball coming out in that situation during the recovery of the backdash, driverush would still have to beat it. So now they would have to animate the fireball being canceled by the driverush only so that Jimmy could feel happy that his inputs were being respected. It is so much easier to simply NOT have the fireball come out in the first place since in any event it is meant to be beaten by driverush.
Remove raw drive rush, is a dumb mechanic anyways even if it worked properly
THANK YOU.🤝🏾
I play a lot of fighting games....and I mean a lot a lot. I have more misinputs in SF6 than any other game. That's not just misinputs because of drive rush screen freeze but everywhere. I swear almost every match I play I have a misinput. Yeah I main Lily and I know there's issues with overlapping inputs and certain things being prioritized. It still bugs the crap out of me and I wish it wasn't an issue.
Cant belive people didnt know Drive Rush did that. Punks been saying that since day 1
I knew something was up. I always struggle against drive rush spammers because of this.
Damn, great find. I just today was frustrated by the same thing, but with OD reversal/super after parry. Even my jumps were getting eaten.
---
A workaround is to hold the input/button you want to come out during the freeze frame. So for the fireball after parry in your case, hold the final punch button (or forward+punch) during the freeze frame. The fireball input will come out every time.
This was taught by FChamp to Chris Tatarian in one of their videos. FChamp says Marvel Infinite players had to learn how to get their inputs out because of their own freeze frame stuff.
Of course, similar to what you said, the problem with this is being READY to do something unnatural like holding the button during the recovery of another move. Who's ready for that when the circumstance to hold the button is entirely dictated by when the opponent decides to Drive Rush? You can really only be ready when in neutral and not pressing buttons, not when you were already doing stuff.
So the above is a workaround, not a solution. And still not ideal.
So I do like the idea of removing the freeze frame but increasing the startup on the Drive Rush.
I don't think it will be useless if they find the right amount of frames to slow it down by. Maybe 11 frames is perfect. Maybe 5. Maybe 8. I don't think drive rush will be useless if it started up slower... you still get +4 frame advantage and neutral skip.
It's like how a lot of slower moves in this game are still good because of the reward and/or frame advantage you get after... like Dictator's HP, or Double Knee Press. Or Ken's Dragonlash. Or Lily's Condor Spire.
Basically, I think if you slow it down a bit, Drive Rush will be like a universal Ken Dragonlash, or Cammy Spin Knuckle. Situational and reactable, but comes with good rewards.
I think if Capcom releases a different live public beta build of this change, alongside the regular version being live, it would be a great way to experiment and get data on how the changes to Drive Rush would affect the game, and great way to get players' feedback.
I will test out the trick of holding the punch button but even if it works it's still really odd... are you supposed to relearn how to do special moves just to avoid an issue in a game mechanic? It seems to silly to me having to use a different way to enter every single special move just for SF6.
@@mdz_jimmy that has been known since release. fchamp talked about it a lot in his stream. its very inconsistent, though, dont get your hopes up.
@@tiguilherman_plays I tested this "fix" and it didn't help at all lol
I guess in that situation players are meant to just keep parrying or just take the throw 😅
Plot twist…..Capcom knows about these flaws. They just wanna keep the skill gap closed
I find it to be a double edged sword...doing drive rush stuff is super satisfying but being on the receiving end of it is super annoying
It's even worse when you play a charge character because you lose charge. I notice a lot of Deejay players (knowingly or not) abuse this mechanic.
I instead gets accidental charges move comes out due to the prolonged weird 8f buffer
maybe you should see that in that way: I think theres no desync. the buffer must be expend backyard for 11 eleven frames at the start of the DR and at the first available frame (neutral) for the defender the buffer must be played. for each frame the game display the buffer is reduce by 1frames. If you see any issue with that i would love to talk about. :) also thx a lot for your content.
Hey man, I'm not sure I understand your suggestion. The game is supposed to buffer all inputs during the DR freeze and then play it back when the freeze ends? So what is the game supposed to do about your inputs that you do during those 11 frames when the DR freeze ends? Just ignore them? Sounds like a very bad thing to do.
@@mdz_jimmy no absoluty not ignore the input. what I propose is to executing what the buffer read in those eleven frames of freeze while your in a recovery state and playing it at the first available frame (neutral states)is like what they did in the patch by expending the buffer in okizeme scenario. i'm not a primary english speaker sorry about that. I hope Ive been clear this time ^^!
the freeze tilts me so much i can't play for the rest of the set sometimes, crazy but it's never getting fixed, despite there being solutions.
Instead of freeze frames just make it slow down frames instead, like drive impact vs drive impact, only make it not last as long
How about it buffers the first move you input. But will always prioritize special moves over normals?
Great breakdown of the issues at hand caused by drive rush
When you talk to people who have droped the game this and the risk/reward with perfect parry are the 2 most common complaints. The fact capcom has acknowledged this then done nothing about it for over a year is both funny and frustrating
As I said in the video it's not easy to fix the DR issue without completely changing how DR works so I understand why they don't want to touch it. As for perfect parry risk/reward they DID end up making it a lot weaker by scaling drive gauge damage on perfect parry.
@mdz_jimmy Im not sure if this would fix it up slowing down DR across the board and removing the freeze maybe help? Yeah haha I think its more doing parry attempts and it whiffing but only getting a throw punish is the part people ive talked to hate about it, im guessing they want something like in SFV like gills parries on whiff
I discussed how removing the DR freeze would impact the mechanic in my video but to summarize: changing it like this would completely break the mechanic. As for perfect parry: You seem to be implying that perfect parry should be buffed? For competitive play pretty much everyone agrees that perfect parry is too strong (not too weak!) so it was nerfed for season 2.
@mdz_jimmy oh with perfect parry im meaning like an attempt that whiifs like tapping it in block strings should be a big punish like in SFV if you bait them. Cause in 6 you can just hold it with the attempt and worst thing that happens is you get thrown for a bit more damage
@@exiaR2x78 In season 2 they extended the recovery on parry attempts so it's easier to punish now. Yeah you have to throw but the punish counter throw is very damaging both for health but also for the drive gauge. I don't think this is a problem.
Honestly, i feel like with SF6, capcom tried to mashup different mechanics from different iterations of the series, but didnt implement any of them well in this game. Back to 3S, i guess...
you might have a skewed perpective a lot of games have the same issue, u just have to triple tap your fire balls for it to come out when grounded.
I know people have made mods where drive rush doesn't stop time for a sec and it shows that it messes with combos and stuff, but I still think drive rush shouldnt time freeze the game and eat inputs. Just patch it so the combos still work.
“You get hit by a sweep in Street Fighter 4 and you guess for your life until you die”
Yes absolutely. Meterless invincible reversible gave you more options but this was the experience. I loved SF4, maybe my favourite game of all time but the game has improved in many important ways.
Instead of completely removing Drive Rush, they could fix Drive Rush by making it only come out by cancelling into it from a button. Throwing it out in neutral is what's causing the chaos.
For some matchups, you need to drive rush in neutral though. Like against JP
@@dragonic22Yep. I can see that. And some characters need drive rush to enforce their mixups on oki too. When changing system mechanics there's always gonna be a trade off, whether it be gameplay or characters. If the devs can find an alternate fix though I'm all ears.
Honestly, I would prefer to see drive rush gone. Its too strong in my opinion. Very oppressive on defense, and does not benefit some characters as much as others. I really really dont like parry, but drive rush is 5x worse. If they gave all characters the same drive rush distance and speed, then I wouldnt have a problem, but I feel like its not as useful on Dhalsim as it is for Bison for example, and I just dont like game mechanics that favors one character more than others. Atleast with parry and Drive impact, they are the same across all characters.
Drive Rush messes timing inputs. Thats very cool tech.
Let an AI option selects your inputs between the 11 frozen frames and the 11 followed frames 😂
My thing is, does Capcom know?
This debate has been talked about but I have no idea if Capcom knows about this.
They knew it since the first day
This is the only reason i stopped playing this game. The day they fix the eaten inputs i'll start playing it again.
You have bought this game anyway, so they don't care
Even with no recovery, DR will eat a jump input. I notice this at the beginning of rounds way too often that its just best not to jump at the start of a match.
Yupp, Jump is by far the most susceptible thing to being eaten.
I used to try checking DR with neutral jump until I realized this.
just needs to get rid of the freeze at this point, I think SF4 had super freezes eat up buttons
The solution to this problem isn't as complicated as you make it seem. You just extend that "reversal out of block/recovery" buffer forward to cover all of the Drive Rush freeze frames. You don't have to replay all the inputs one frame at a time - the reversal action just happens.
This might seem like a reasonable thing to do on wakeup but not all the other scenarios that I showed. Even on wakeup it might cause problems but what is the game supposed to do about your inputs in the scenario with the jump that I showed with Akuma? Just delay your inputs and desync the game? When is it going to sync back up and in general it just seems odd to lose control of your character for 11 frames when there's a drive rush.
@@mdz_jimmy There is no delaying and replaying of inputs, it just does whatever is the highest priority action on the frame that you recover.
It wouldn't help in the Akuma situation where you are in air and expected to land, but in all the other cases it would.
@@soggytoast111 Oh wait you're just explaining how drive rush works? I understand how drive rush works but my video is about drive rush extending recovery frames in certain scenarios (wakeup, backdash, perfect parry recovery, etc.) which effectively deletes your inputs. I'm not talking about the "normal" behavior of drive rush playing back your most recent input after the DR freeze.
Which is worse to you, freeze frames with drive rush and possible inputs eaten...or no freeze frames with drive rush and make it a few frames slower? I personally would rather have an almost unreactible drive rush that i can check whether im expecting it or reacting to it rather than have inputs eaten because of screen freeze. Misinputs are just the worst any given day.
If you make it "a few frames slower" it'll be completely useless for high level play... you can't have your cake and eat it too on this one. Either you remove the freeze frames and make drive rush completely broken (not good!) or you need to completely rework drive rush and the rest of the system mechanics to make deeper changes to how everything works... it's not that simple.
What the question really boils down to is: Do you want to play a game with hard to react to moves/mechanics or a game that fudges with your inputs? What's bad is right now SF6 is doing both.
@@devilcatv2 I think it's obvious drive rush should be reworked but you can't do it without significantly changing SF6 as a game so if anything we might see this later on in its lifespan.
I appreciate the response, and I agree it's not a simple change. I like the game a lot but I get so frustrated at it as well.
@@devilcatv2 Yeah but to be fair I think all SF games have elements that are frustrating like that! 😅 This discussion happens with every new SF iteration lol
Remove the freeze frames, and slow the walking speed of the initial step by 3 frames.
Yeah it was this and the terrible buffer on wakeup that made me drop SF6 to be honest. There's few things more frustrating in a FG than inputs getting eaten or not coming out, never had it happen as often in other games either locally/online or heck even delay based games.
Ah that explain i can not special while enemy drive rush, i thought my input was not fast enough 😅. No wonder i always lose at drive rush, thank you next time i just do normal😊
It would happen to a normal move too if opponent times it correctly right?
@ellguy1965 Probably, Drive Rush is somewhat overpowered because when you see a green light coming toward you, most of the time, your instinct tells you to react with a special or OD special and DI since just blocking and parrying puts you in a disadvantageous position to frame lock and throw. So Drive Revesal is the safest bet, noted 😀
Oh so this is why people love to Dr after the opponent does anything. They try to do something about their opponent's follow ups. Got it.
Even just doing dash forward will eat ur job..happens to me alot..i see the opponents dash forward but the job didnt come out
Every move with a recovery state has this problem so yes it includes forward dash.
No matter how much this topic gets brought up, its always wrong, DR does not eat input, it changes input timing(which makes it feel like its eating inputs)
This technicality is explained in this video and doesn't change anything about the consequences: DR effectively deletes your inputs if you're unlucky with the input timing change. So no it's not wrong to say DR deletes inputs... it does.
You also left out actual input deletion by DR whenever you buffer moves: If you do a normal into a DR cancel and sombody happens to do DR at that time then you only get an empty parry... this has nothing to do with input timing, it's literally DR deleting any move you did before the final one.
@@mdz_jimmyFair
Would ex Fireball even work against a flash kick? Isn't it invulnerable on startup?
I'm confused. Guile wouldn't have had enough charge for a flash kick