Coast to Coast across England with my Dog (pt. 2): Borrowdale to Shap | This hike almost BROKE me!!

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ม.ค. 2025

ความคิดเห็น • 92

  • @johnflaherty4128
    @johnflaherty4128 2 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Beautiful lady inside and out|

  • @gbfch
    @gbfch 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    Lovely video in typical Lake District weather - every day different. Following your journey with great interest. Your judgement on how to stage the trip seems spot on. Don't think I would have set off on that dreadful morning but well done on overcoming the conditions. If you walk it, you've done it, doesn't matter where you stay overnight. Doesn't detract from the achievement.
    What a little trooper Otto is.

  • @user-man-now80
    @user-man-now80 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +9

    Bless you. You are the perfect companion for Otto, and the way that you consider his welfare is really special. You have every right to have the comfort of a hotel when extenuating circumstances arise. Your exploits have already proved that you can deal with difficult environments - enjoy yourself just occasionally. I have been waiting for this latest episode of your hike across England and am really enjoying it. Thanks again. Cheers ! Sheffield South Yorkshire. On the day when it rained.....you ought not to have gone. You have nothing to prove....to anyone !

  • @deepsubmergence9357
    @deepsubmergence9357 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    I've encountered the same types of decision points when the weather is not to my liking whether it's rain, snow, hail or wind. In those moments I always remember that safety is mandatory and suffering is optional. As far as those individuals that critique your style, it's not their hike. Hike your own hike because you're there for you and not for them. Love your videos and thanks for sharing your adventures.

  • @user-TonyUK
    @user-TonyUK 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    I first travelled across the UK on this Hike as a retraining exercise prior to joining the Brittish Military way back in 1975, I loved it, so much so I returned again in 1979 after I left the Military and now aged 68 I have returned every 5 years or so I LOVE IT. The Peace and Quiet amazes me. Now I am getting older I jot down my Memories of other Hikers doing the same Hike on what has changed over the years. Tony the Retire Hiker

  • @melskmelsk
    @melskmelsk 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    What you said about not making things harder to maintain the capacity to push through when things get hard was so wise --and not only for hiking!

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      Didn't even think about that, but YES - so true 😊😍

  • @awsch990
    @awsch990 หลายเดือนก่อน

    As always, a very good and interesting video. It's your path and only you decide how you go about it, especially because you help decide for Otto. Don't worry about what others think about it.

  • @chrishiking8818
    @chrishiking8818 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Thanks Elli and Otto for bringing back the memories of my coast to coast this past summer again. Unbelievable that I walked where you both have been too, no matter how much I see these areas again it's so beautiful and awesome. Otto is totally amazing little dog walking this route too. Respect to you both 💪🌷

  • @disartster
    @disartster 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    I love how Eli can have the best day ever after the worst day ever after the best day ever - I experience outdoors in a similar way xD
    My usual protocol is: omg, this is so beautiful - I guess I'll die here - omg, look at this sunset!

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Hahaha, this comment made me laugh out loud 😅😅 so true 😅 thank you so much for following along, I really appreciate that :)

  • @frankalexander6629
    @frankalexander6629 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Tough walk, good decisions. You are a special lady, Otto deserves you, well done!

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Thank you so much, I really appreciate you following along :)

  • @hnahler
    @hnahler 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Thank you for sharing your rollercoaster of emotions on a challenging day. I think you have the right mindset to look at the balance between enjoyment and challenge. Yes, there are days when we question why we are doing this and that we should just sit it out. In my experience there is no right or wrong. You know that you would have felt best if you stayed another day at the campsite. The decision between right or wrong comes in when something we do puts us or our company at unacceptable risk. - In this instance, I don't think this was the case. While you felt miserable during the day, it also gave you a sense of achievement.

  • @thebearpike
    @thebearpike 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Wieder beeindruckende Landschaft, eine Achterbahn der Gefühle, eine starke Frau und ein toller Hund. Vielen Dank fürs Mitnehmen auf deine Tour!

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Ohh, Dankeschön fürs Folgen und für die lieben Worte! Das freut mich sehr, dass du unsere Abenteuer so mitverfolgst 😍😊

    • @thebearpike
      @thebearpike 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      ​@@ellihikes Ach, ich wollte noch fragen: Was ist denn besser, um euch beide zu unterstützen? Über buymeacoffee oder auf TH-cam Kanalmitglied werden? Wo kommt es direkter bei euch an?

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Aww, das ist ja lieb - da freu ich mich mega!! TH-cam hatte kürzlich nen 'Bonus', wenn man die Kanalmitgliedschaft einrichtet, deshalb hab ich sie dann aktiviert. Direkter und ohne dass noch jemand 'mitverdient' kommt es aber über ko-fi oder buymeacoffee bei mir an 😊😇

    • @thebearpike
      @thebearpike 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@ellihikes Verstanden und erledigt ☺☕

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Aww, das ist mega lieb! Danke für deinen Support, das bedeutet mir super viel :)

  • @frauzimt
    @frauzimt 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Congrats on making it through that nasty day! You two totally deserved that hotel room. There is nothing better than a dry place to take shelter after spending a day in the cold and wet outdoors. I remember a day when I was hiking in northern Sweden and my dog got so excited when we reached a Fjällstation after a long wet and windy day of hiking, that I could not disappoint him and booked bed inside instead of pitching my tent. He really hated wet weather...

  • @wandering_not_lost
    @wandering_not_lost 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Oh my goodness Elli, you are so brave and resilient, and so is Otto! When I did the coast to coast the rain in Patterdale was biblical and I just took a bus to Shap and missed the section over Kidsty Pike. I'm hoping to go back and do the whole walk again next year. To be honest if I'd been there with you I'd have implored you not to attempt it that day but to take a zero and think about doing that stretch the next day. As you said, no-one else was walking on the fells that day, I expect they were all in the pub! I'm glad it worked out ok for you, a hotel room was well deserved for you both after that. I'm looking forward to the next videos. I love your channel, thank you for the videos.

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Thank you for following along :) yep, it was quite hard, but I was determined to walk every bit and not skip anything. I thought of waiting out the rain, but my tent was wet on the inside from all the rain splashing onto the inner tent so I didn't really want to sit in a very wet tent for another day with no cafe/pub around. I knew that I wouldn't feel great there either being anxious about the tent collapsing etc.....

  • @ked2687
    @ked2687 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Glad you have seen how glorious it is in the Lakes when the sun shines. There is no place on Earth like it. However, I have walked round Haweswater in just such wet weather as you had. It is miserable. 😢😢

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      So true, it really is spectacular and I was so happy to have that perfect sunny day 😍 I definitely want to go back to explore more of the Lakes :)

  • @PhilMcKelliget
    @PhilMcKelliget 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Pushing on in those conditions was both brave and determined and I admire you for it. Myself, I would have left the tent in the campsite and gone down the pub for the day. Whatever, I’m really enjoying your videos and always watch the next one the moment it comes out.

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Aww, thank you so much for following along! I think I felt "trapped" with my tent being wet on the inside and the pub nearby being closed that day. It felt a bit hard to get away from Patterdale by public transport that day just to come back to a tent that would've been even more wet. I just couldn't see myself sitting around there for another 24hrs, so I thought, we might as well hike on 🫣

    • @PhilMcKelliget
      @PhilMcKelliget 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Do you use an extra groundsheet under your tent?

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@PhilMcKelliget yes, I use a piece of tyvek cut to the size if the inner tent :)

    • @PhilMcKelliget
      @PhilMcKelliget 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@ellihikes So where’s the water coming in?

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      I don't know exactly, there was quite a bit of splashback onto the inner tent that maybe got over the bathtub floor and/or the rain got pushed in by the wind....

  • @user-man-now80
    @user-man-now80 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Thanks

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Thank you so so much for your support, that means a lot!!

  • @susanrich6
    @susanrich6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Wonderful video. I'm planning more adventures when the weather picks up.
    Wondering if you use a 🎤 microphone, all I got was wind noise on a couple of my clips when recording for my vlogs.
    😊

  • @user-TonyUK
    @user-TonyUK 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Before taking the route down to Patterdale I opted for the Hyvellen Peak to capture the views and to also check out the two Kife Edge Ridges off Hyvellen, way too steep for me with my 30kg pack so it was back down to Grisedale Tarn for a coffee before settling for a downward hike to Patterdale

  • @lagestita
    @lagestita 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    If I had been you, I would have stayed at the campsite in Patterdale for another day. I'm thinking of doing the coast to coast trail next spring with my dog, but I don't think I would pull through that weather. I'm going to take my time and try to enjoy it. If the weather is that bad for one day, we'll just take a day off walking and rest 😅. I admire your determination

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Thank you for following along :) I think I felt a bit "trapped" because the inside of my tent was wet too from the rain splashing onto the inner tent and I didn't really see myself there for another 24hrs with no pub/cafe nearby. It felt a bit harder to get away from there (Patterdale) in particular by bus etc.... I'm sure you'll have a great time on the C2C it's an incredible hike 😍

    • @lagestita
      @lagestita 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@ellihikes oh true. I remember seeing the inside of your tent wet 😢. That definitely changes everything

  • @alanbrown9178
    @alanbrown9178 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I have been told that the stone slabs that are the paths in some places, were taken from closed cotton and wollen mills in the area... they were the floors.

  • @susanmackey8514
    @susanmackey8514 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    You do you!!! I mean really. You're young so you still worry about the judgement of others. No need for that cuz you and Otto are something special!

  • @sarahscott-ze1th
    @sarahscott-ze1th 21 วันที่ผ่านมา

    I had similar weather to you on that section and chose to take the boat from Glenridding down to the end of Ullswater and walk on from there so, missed out Kidsty Pike and I am so glad I did as I knew it would be exposed and going down is very steep. It was still a long and miserably wet day but much safer in the weather.

  • @michaelatkinson8291
    @michaelatkinson8291 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Welcome to summer in the Lake District ! When it's nice it's beautiful, but days like you had can be brutal. Grisedale tarn is stunning & is one of my favourite places to chill out. Your choice of heading up to Deepdale hause & St Sunday Crag is a stunning one though the walk down Grisedale valley is wonderful too. Just below Grisedale tarn, just off the track is the 'Brother's Parting stone' which is marked with an iron plinth & is the spot where in 1800 the famous poet William Wordsworth said goodbye to his brother John who was meeting up with a ship he was commander of. The ship sunk a few years later & they never saw each other again. Great video Elli showing the reality of what conditions can be like here. Love to you & little Otto xx

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Thank you so much for following along and always leaving kind comments! That's an interesting side fact, I didn't know about that :) Haha, yep - we really had a lot of rain in the Lakes in summer. I think I have to return to see more ;)

  • @cheekuenbird38
    @cheekuenbird38 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    I was getting worried, not seeing you for a few weeks, just I was trying my husband over dinner. Then I switched on TV, and they you are with Otto 😊 I was so delighted. Omg you both done so with horrible weather weather. Please tell me how I can buy Otto treats and a coffee for you ?Take care ❤

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Aww, thank you for the kind words - I really appreciate you following along. If I skip an upload, I always try to make a post in the 'community' tab on my youtube (one of the tabs on my channel page, next to the 'video' tab) to let you all know what's up 😊😊

  • @mattmckay949
    @mattmckay949 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    There is a lower way round but good on you for going over the top ... can be horrid over the top of Kidsty Pike when the weather bad, you get battered by the wind and it a tricky descent also so you probably made a good choice to go round... great views though and well done!

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Really? That's interesting - I didn't see anything on the map that wasn't way longer.... where does it run along? Thank you for following along 😊

    • @mattmckay949
      @mattmckay949 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@ellihikes It's similar to the route you took but doesn't quite go right over the top of the pike itself ... it's a challenging and long leg but lovely along the reservoir and you did very well to carry on in that horrid weather 🙂

  • @nickwinter991
    @nickwinter991 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Hmm.... being a bit of a wimp, I think I'd have stayed another day at the campsite rather than risk Kidsty Pike in a storm! Well done though, that looked really tough going. One of the (many) great things about your videos is that you make us feel that we are there, sharing the wind and rain and cold in this case! You are a real professional, making yourself talk to the camera in such awful conditions when all you probably want to do is keep your head down and get to your destination asap.

  • @RobbC.
    @RobbC. 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    This looked beautiful, now added to my list of things to do in 2025. Thanks for the inspiration. Plus you have to do these things the best way for you and Otto, stay in a hotel if you need a night of comfort, or do it an "easier" way if you need to. Forget other peoples opinions (and my gosh the World is full of them nowadays!)
    Congrats on another great achievement :)

  • @junkbarny6958
    @junkbarny6958 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I did the C2C back in April 2009, going East to West, it rained constantly and I just couldn’t keep my feet dry, they were a total state, seriously considered quitting! On the last day just as I got to St Bees the weather cleared up and there was the most beautiful sunset over the Irish Sea. Just subscribed 👍

  • @RenateSchneider-d8w
    @RenateSchneider-d8w 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Hi Elli, ihr zwei trotzt dem Regen, Wind und Sturm - Hut ab. Diese schöne Landschaft begeistert mich. Ich hoffe, daß sich das Wetter bessert.

  • @keypenhikeralan4233
    @keypenhikeralan4233 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Thank you for sharing . The struggles are real

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Thank you so much for following along 🥰

  • @riqueroams
    @riqueroams 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Yay, another great video. Well done Elli and Otto. The beautiful landscape but 😮 to the changing weather. Typical UK weather: 4 seasons in one day lol. As another person said “Hike your own Hike.” Great advice. You know what you can do. Keep up the good work. A big hug for Otto. By the way, I chuckle when you throw a swear word in. On my recent bike journey, I may have said quite a few of those on a bad day 😅. x

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Hahaha, yes - that's so true 😅 thank you for following along and the kind words. Your comments always make me smile 😊😊

  • @richard_ellis
    @richard_ellis 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    And he’s first again… Boom!

  • @sallydingle321
    @sallydingle321 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Wow... that was such a contrast in weathers wasn't it 🙏... You both coped so well and should be so proud 👌🥰🤗🐾😘

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Hahaha, yes it was crazy 🤪 that day was very very hard but luckily it was a lot better afterwards 😅 thank you so much for following along!!

  • @ethelmini
    @ethelmini 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    You can avoid Striding Edge to get down to Patterdale off Helvellyn, but I think you took the more scenic ridge route.

  • @mrjiggs3761
    @mrjiggs3761 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Nice to see you two back out enjoying yourselves x

  • @mikebrown32
    @mikebrown32 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Another great video and more good decisions! Def the right thing to stay in the hotel and not take Otto over Striding Edge. I might have stayed another day in Patterdale, but you know your limits and you made it to Shap. Pretty grim conditions for Aug - even for the Lakes! Well done. Looking forward to the next episode.

  • @RegEdmunds
    @RegEdmunds 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    A most enjoyable video, with some very good views of the landscape. I just loved the shot of Otto at the Abbey. On wet days do you just accept wet feet, or do you wear waterproof socks? Have you considered making a video about car camping, where you park, how you get back to your car, and so on? I remembered your video when you spent time converting your car.

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Thank you so much for following along and the kind words! I think I might do more car camping over the winter and will share my experience a bit more then, thank you for suggesting! Re the wet feet: on days like that one, I just accept that my feet will be wet all day. I still wore my waterproof socks, but mainly for the cold. I think, nothing would have prevented wet feet that day as the water was calf deep on several occasions and would have gone over any shoe/boot/sock.... why I love trailrunners though: they completely dried overnight on the radiator in the hotel which is the biggest plus for me :)

  • @damedavidfrith55
    @damedavidfrith55 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Yep no point doing a pointless thing such as making harder walk just to prove a point,glad u doing ok happy trails you both 😊

  • @Daytona2
    @Daytona2 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Stunning landscapes - now you understand why they are so green 😉
    Good route decision making, Ellie - Striding Edge was a no-no with Otto because of the large steps up & down 👍
    Could you have stayed at the campsite another day to avoid the rain ?
    Competitive people saying you should do it their way eg only wild camp, are not worth your time or energy. Competition spoils everything.

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Hahaha, I really do! The amount of rain I've had in August in the Lakes.... just wow 😵‍💫🫣🤪 Thank you so much for following along, I really appreciate that! Re the campsite: I thought about that but there was so much rain that it splashed onto the inner tent and pushed through the tent floor.... I knew that I would have been miserable too staying in a completely wet tent for another 24hrs. Plus there wouldn't have been a café or anything to go to really, I felt a bit trapped 😅😅🫣 and I only had a limited time in the UK that time and really wanted to finish the C2C which all played into us setting off that day....

    • @Daytona2
      @Daytona2 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@ellihikes Oh yeah, sorry I forgot you showed the water seeping in to your tent. So you were flushed out 😕 (dunno if your excellent English is good enough for puns, Ellie - flushed out is both an expression/saying and almost literally true)

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      😅😉

    • @stephenvicary9243
      @stephenvicary9243 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      As always, an excellent video Elli. A great upload showing both the good and not so good hiking trails. Very much appreciate your tolerance of the Cumbria weather which can be blissful and challenging to say the least. Looking forward to the next episode with Otto taking the lead 😃

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Thank you so much for following along, I really appreciate the kind words 😊

  • @keithmoss7460
    @keithmoss7460 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Almost criminal Ellie doesn't have so many subscribers as yet whilst spreading such positive energy and messages in all her video's. But conversely other self obsessed attention seeking muppets with more negative undertones do.... a sad reflection of the world we live in lol. Anyway loads interesting and sensible points raised as always. Great video, Thank you!

  • @vinceharte8276
    @vinceharte8276 2 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Hi Eli, came across your channel as I am looking to make the Coast to Coast this summer., I like your decision making with short days to manage the weather. I have a Bergan that is 30 years old, good for most things still, however I liked your Bergan for the side pockets (water) and shoulder pockets. Could you tell me what make your Bergan is please.

  • @Peter-MH
    @Peter-MH 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Impressive perseverance! 👍 Getting a cosy hotel after a few days of super tough hiking in the wind & rain must feel like absolute heaven! 😂

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      It really was heaven! That hot shower after the end of this day - best shower in a long time 🥰😅 thank you so much for following along!

  • @km2965
    @km2965 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Well done, that last leg looked brutal - good job it's the height of summer🤣

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Hahahaha, it really was 😅🫣 it's been quite wet in August 😵‍💫

  • @AndyKing1963
    @AndyKing1963 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    fantastic videos Elli - thanks and all the best

  • @adrianstrand1120
    @adrianstrand1120 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Well done, very brave and determined in such bad weather, Otto is such a tough little fellow and a great hiking buddy 👍🏻

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Thank you so much for following along. He really is 🥰 it's so funny that he doesn't seem to be bothered by the rain/by being wet at all.... He just keeps going 😅

  • @jimbrown1061
    @jimbrown1061 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Great video. 👍

  • @sarahscott-ze1th
    @sarahscott-ze1th 21 วันที่ผ่านมา

    I noticed you are wearing blue shoes but you showed your pink Altra 5's in your packing video. What happened to them?

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  21 วันที่ผ่านมา

      I switch between my Altra's and the TopoAthletic Ultraventure/Mt-4 ... I thought my altra's wouldn't have another 300km in them, so I used my TopoAthletics instead that we're less worn at that point :)

  • @RichardMathews-gv7lb
    @RichardMathews-gv7lb 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Fair play Elli. That looked absolutely Scheiße.

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      🤣🤣😅 it really was hard!! Thank you for following along 😇

    • @RichardMathews-gv7lb
      @RichardMathews-gv7lb 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@ellihikes file it under ‘retrospective pleasure’ or ‘character building’ depending on which recess of your autobiographical memory you have it stored in.

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      hahaha, yep true :) I mean these are the days that you'll always remember :)

  • @johnward-128
    @johnward-128 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    Elli please follow this advice Hike your own Hike how you do it it’s not that important it’s enjoying the hike would they say the same to a man

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Yep, that's what I always try to do to make it work for me and for Otto 🥰 thank you for following along :)

  • @robertmackay3795
    @robertmackay3795 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    This is not entertainment,you should have stayed in bed,you and Otto have nothing to prove

    • @ellihikes
      @ellihikes  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      I don't really understand your point, where is this entertainment? I'm explicitly saying that I don't have to prove anything, unlike many other people that you'd see on social media.... I'm showing our life on trail. Sometimes conditions aren't great, sometimes you'll get wet and feel miserable. Which is what I'm showing in this video. With thousands of miles of hiking experience in the UK alone, I wouldn't have set off and/or would have turned back later if the conditions had been dangerous. I certainly wouldn't put Otto, myself or MR at risk and never have.....