That controller knew instantly what needed to be done. No unneeded questions or confusion. The pilots said they had no heading, and he immediately started guiding them. All the controllers seemed to do an excellent job keeping calm and patient and guiding the pilots to the runway. And of course the pilots did an amazing job recognizing their problem, letting it be known, repeating each frequency change that they were emergency and the nature of the emergency, and getting their plane safely back to the ground. I'd feel safe flying with these guys for sure!
All the Air Force planes I ever worked on had a light in the compass and had it mounted in the center of the cockpit windscreen It’s there for exactly this reason… to be available when everything else has failed. It’s just hard for me to believe that two professional pilots, in an internationally certified airframe, did not have a working compass.
HOLY CRAP the lady was My flight instructor!!! I just ran into here literally a few days ago. we haven’t seen each other since we flew last year. I’m so glad shes ok. Ps she didn’t tell me about this but recognized that voice and texted her 😅
Is her English better in reality than it sounds here? Because this sounds a lot like broken asian English and the captain having to jump in several times to save the conversation
As a controller (retired) I can say a no gyro vector is not easy and takes a lot of attention. As to all the comments about the magnetic compass I have this. Magnetic compasses on jets are there for+a legal requirement. They have to be carefully placed to be even somewhat accurate, and at the rates the jet moves in comparison to the compass makes them all but useless except for general heading ideas. It would be nearly impossible to do any type of instrument procedure with just a magnetic compass. And as to the idea of using your cell phone…. We’ll there are so many problems with that. Just to mention one, the compass isn’t calibrated, nor is it designed to give anywhere near accurate information and when used in that environment with all the electronics and metal it would be less reliable than a controller who can see exactly where the plane is headed.
Except the controller had no idea what the actual issue was because they never freaking communicated it. What “instruments” do/dont you have? Can you use your compass? Can you fly an ILS or navigate to a waypoint? The first guy literally gave up trying to ask specifically what was wrong. And, just for the record, our compasses aren’t as wildly inaccurate as you say. It *can* be a valuable tool.
2nd comment you sound like an arm chair pilot. Have you ever been in a situation like this, not to mention in busy NY airspace. Aviate, navigate, communicate.
Your cellphone won't work. They're legally required to no longer function somewhere near the speeds jets travel at to prohibt terrorists using them as nav systems in guided missiles.
@@ScreaminEmu I have significantly more experience than you apparently can imagine. I doubt you have ever tried to actually navigate via a magnetic compass at speeds over 170kts and tried to roll out on a turn with the accuracy of less than 5 degrees that would be required at minimum to shoot an approach. None of the controllers really needed to know the extent of what was and wasn’t working, only that the aircraft wasn’t able to turn to and hold a specific heading. Your questions that you think were necessary show your lack of understanding the situation. You can’t fly an ILS or any other approach without first being established on a heading that will intercept that approach, you must know how far off and which direction the approach course is from that, and you must know when to start the turn on. But since you know how to do this you can answer these questions what is the maximum lead or lag in a half standard rate turn at 170kts? When is the compass leading and when lagging? If on a half standard rate turn at 140kts turning from a heading of 015degrees to a heading of 355 degrees at what heading do you begin to roll out level to establish the new heading plus or minus 2 degrees? Can you even establish a heading on a magnetic compass with that much accuracy? Bottom line is given no accurate and reliable heading information the best possible way is to get that information from a source that has the situational awareness to assist. That is exactly what the controllers did, and apparently well enough.
I´m really impressed by this amazing cooperation between pilots and ATC. No stress, no unnecessary questions, just faithful guidance "through the dark". Makes me feel secure as a passenger. Hats off!
Unfortunately, many of the milestones we’ve had in safety and rules have been paved with blood. Our rules are built upon our mistakes and determination to not let them repeat.
I’m glad you feel that way… but as a former instructor and check pilot for that company, they actually did a poor job, became fixated and failed to use backup equipment. They took a minor issue (threat) and turned it into a major issue. Glad the outcome was good. But this is how minor issues can develop into accidents.
@@NeelHippalgaonkar the mag compass is a stand alone instrument with NO outside source of ANYTHING needed to function. In my 22 years of flying airline, instructing, and giving checkrides I have NEVER heard of a mag compass failure (which is only one of the heading backups). The likelihood of both AHRS (attitude and heading reference system) failing is almost zero. These two simply didn’t recognize the problem and failed to switch to the “good” AHRS system and remained on the failed side which was giving them faulty info…
Chuckled at the 040 heading glitch. Thank God for the controller's precision radar and personal experience that gave him the ability to steer the plane in. With lives on the line, the cohesiveness between the two was important to land the plane, experience played a big part. To lose instruments is huge
What an amazing video! I did read the forewords from the poster but I didn't expect it was this good. They made it sound so easy. Truly terrific collaboration. This video is a gem and must be kept. Thank you very much for finding and posting this.
That must have been really nerve wracking to lose your instruments especially in one of the worlds busiest airspaces. Great job to the pilots and controllers for working together. It’s not like flight simulator where you can just do a U turn and come go back to land. You have dozens of aircraft above and below you. One little error in heading indication can be devastating.
With all of the swapping of which pilot was handling the radios, I'd guess they were pretty busy on the flight deck. Well done to get through all off the extra workload and get back on the ground safely. And it sure appears that the controllers are prepared for such a situation. They all did exactly the same thing helping the pilots get around.
The switching around of who was on the radio multiple times is a sign of confusion, not a high work load. The first thing the captain should do in an abnormal is assign roles (endeavor has the pilot flying assign roles). There are several indicators in this event of confusion and lack of procedural adherence by the pilots. I am glad they are safe, but their tunnel vision and confusion they failed to used multiple backup systems available to them.
@@danwonders9403 I see it slightly differently. Keeping in mind the general order of priorities - aviate, navigate, communicate - keeping the plane flying and on a safe course is the main task. And that navigation task is made significantly harder by the loss of some navigation instruments. There is also going to be some concern for the potential loss of aviation instruments - lose your artificial horizon and/or altimeter while in instrument conditions, and you're in a world of hurt. Communication was simply taking a back seat and - perhaps by design - being handled by whichever pilot had the ability to deal with communication at that moment. That would be a workload issue and not a confusion issue.
@@oldguydoesstuff120 I appreciate your perspective. However, that’s not how an airline two person crew works. (Yes Aviate, Navigate, Communicate is still the priority). There are divided and assigned responsibilities. In this circumstance one pilot would have the responsibility of the radios and that would be ASSIGNED to him/her. For them to switch back and forth completely illustrates a lack of protocol and confusion of “who is doing what” on the flight deck. In the realm of Threat and Error Management (the new CRM) this introduces an unnecessary threat. Again, I appreciate your perspective…. But by saying “whichever pilot had the ability to deal with the communication at that moment” illustrates a complete breakdown in emergency proceedures for an airline crew. This doesn’t even mention they had made a minor issue of ONE system failure into a major deal that never should have been. There are THREE independent heading systems on that plane. ONLY ONE had failed (I’ve discussed this with people I still know at that airline). This crew failed in a number of ways. Misidentifying the correct problem could have caused a much worse outcome….
@@danwonders9403 the male voice appears to be the one flying to me, and probably the captain judging his cool demeanor. The female voice appeared to be handling radios amongst supporting the captain with flying. The captain only replied on radio with info such as his speed. With the FO elbows deep in proceedures and tangled in her radio, she would have to ask the captain their speed and relay back
@@BrentLobegeier at endeavor (and everywhere I’ve worked) during an abnormal, the pilot flying is the one working the radios. This frees up the other pilot to work the QRH and administrative duties. (From knowing the inside scoop) these two never established nor adhered to assigned roles (threat) and never understood the problem thus not finding the proper QRH procedure (which would have lead them to switching AHRS. (That doesn’t excuse the lack of private pilot 101 and use the mag compass and standard rate turns). They landed safe, and that’s great. I’m just saying that all the praise people are giving them is undeserved as they screwed a lot up which caused a simple situation to become much closer to an incident than necessary. Airlines are safe ONLY due to adherence to procedures. They didn’t follow them and thus lost the added error management.
The controller was amazing. Realized quickly what was happening and did start and stop turns. I have had this failure in a crj. 3 compasses all pointing at wildly different headings. It was an AHRS failure.
@@douglastisdale7035 vertical compass card. But it’s more complicated than that. Because of the glass and the course being mis aligned on the “HSI”. There’s a procedure to resolve it.
Is the CRJ only equipped with one AHRS? Is there no way to revert between them if not? I’m on the ERJ and we have two AHRS and two ADC’s, and we can pull info from either one on either PFD. I was so confused by this one thinking “you can’t just flip a switch and fix it?”
@@byronhenry6518 some CRJ are AHRS some are IRS. (Inertial reference system). There’s a QRH procedure to work through the problem. When I had it that’s what we did and we were able to continue the flight. When all 3 compasses are different you have to determine which is correct. But in the mean time you are busy. This is a departure and you need to figure out where to fly. The path shown on the instruments won’t be aligned with the path the airplane is flying. I asked for a heading. Hand flew on the compass card then we worked the qrh to get it to the AHRS that was working, selected it then we were able to orient and fly normally. Why didn’t this crew? I don’t know their failure but you can bet they referenced their QRH. They had awesome help from ATC and they returned safely. As I said it’s very confusing when the maps and instruments all differ.
Fun fact: These "start turn - stop turn" procedures were created a few decades ago to address a number of fatal accidents in general aviation (mostly single-engine piston-engine planes). The typical panel of these airplanes included the pitot-static instruments (airspeed, altitude and vertical speed), and the vacuum pump gyro instruments (artificial horizon and gyro compass). Since the vacuum pump was not super reliable, and its failure would leave the pilot without artificial horizon which is likely deadly in instrument meteorological conditions, these airplanes were required a turn coordinator or tun-and-slip indicator (another gyroscopic instrument) powered by an electric motor instead of vacuum, so they would not be affected by the failure of the vacuum pump. This instrument doesn't indicate pitch and it doesn't directly indicate bank directly either, but it indicates if the plane is turning to the left or right and at which rate, which is correlated to the bank angle. So the pilot would use this to turn or level the wings, the airspeed indicator and vertical speed to control pitch, and the wet compass for heading. That was called "partial panel" and, while pilots were required to demonstrate proficiency in that in check rides, it proved to be too much workload and vacuum pump failures in instrument conditions ended up in fatal accidents more often than not. Looking at the compas was particularly distracting because the wet compass is not in de direct field of view of a pilot focusing in the main flight instruments. Looking at the wet compass meant distracting the attention away from the main flight instruments, getting confused with the indication behavior of the compass (lag, inertia, direction of rotation...) to which pilots are not used to, and worst of all, moving the head, which can cause very disorienting sensations when in instrument conditions. So these procedures were created to address that, and they were called "no-gyro vectors". The pilot would flight wings level, trim the plane for the desired speed at constant altitude, and focus most of their attention in the electric turn coordinator to keep the plane upright. The controller, instead of vectoring "turn right heading 210" (which in theory was within the abilities of the plane and pilot, but in practice not so much), would call "start right turn" and the pilot would establish a standard-rate turn (180 deg/min) which at the speeds of these planes requires a very mild 15 degrees of bank or so. The pilot would not know the bank because the artificial horizon would not be working, but they would just apply a bit of right aileron to slowly start rolling the plane to the right, which would initiate a right turn of increasing torn rate and bank, and would neutralize the ailerons when the turn coordinator indicated the standard rate of turn. Then would make small adjustments to keep the turn coordinator at about the standard turn mark. When the controlled called "stop turn" the pilot would slowly apply opposite aileron until the turn coordinator was centered, and then neutralize the ailerons and make small corrections to keep the turn coordinator centered. These saved some lives, but there were still quite a few deaths from vacuum pump failures. The next improvement was to start adding a backup electric artificial horizon, but now most new general aviation airplanes come equipped with glass PFD (primary flight display) that don't have mechanical gyros (neither vacuum nor pump powered) but they have AHRS (attitude and heading reference systems) which are mems gyros (like the ones in drones) to measure attitude (pinch and bank) and they actually measure the magnetic field of the Earth to measure heading, and all the information (together with airspeed, altitude, vertical speed and navigation info) is presented in a computer screen. These instruments are extremely accurate, extremely reliable, and have a battery backup so you don't lose them in the case of an electrical system failure. Add a backup electric artificial horizon or a second glass PFD, and you are almost guaranteed to always have a working artificial horizon in the cockpit. These accidents still happen but at a much lower rate.
@Wil H Are you sure of that? I am not but I believe that there was a time when the pilot was expected to deal with a partial panel and be able to handle vectors, that is turns and headings, using the turn coordinator and wet compass. Which is doable but consumes lots of the pilot’s cognitive resources.
Another key to making no gyro vectoring and approaches work is that the pilot does standard rate turns. That is crucial for the controller, and even the pilots to know how many degrees of change have occurred in a specific period of time.
Reminds me of that game to teach kids programming: kid 1 is the robot and kid 2 shouts instructions to navigate the robot through a maze. That looked like all kinds of fun for the pilots and the ATCs. Well done by everyone involved
This brought back memories of my days as a USAF, RAPCON controller back in the 70's and 80's. When ever we got notification of an inbound USAF Flight Inspection aircraft, we always were prepared for an extensive evaluation. When ever they requested vectors for a PAR approach (or ILS approaches too), we were ready for them to read back back the correct heading assigned but we'd look out for them to fly 30 to 40 degrees off. Seems like every time I worked one I would be issuing phraseology like "Flight Check 11, It appears your gyro is inoperative; This will be no-gyro vectors to the PAR final approach course. Make standard rate turns." Then when the PAR controller took over, pilots were instructed to make "half standard rate turns." Fun times!! Also, since we always had various aircraft in the pattern shooting practice approaches, we would ask if they would allow us to practice no-gyro vectoring!! It was good training for the pilots too!! I'm guessing this probably isn't done today...
When I retired in late 2003 PARs were almost non existent in the AF anymore. Army airfields and Navy still performed them however. Unsure of current times however. I think one of the last ones we did was to Cairns AAF at Ft Rucker, Alabama.
Too bad you didn't have a Gonna Crash Anyway radar unit. Oh sorry... that's a Ground Control Approach (GCA) system. My gawd they were horrible. Horrible to use... and just as horrible to maintain. ATC Radar Maintenance from '76 to '86.
Eons ago when I was learning instruments, I was taught that if I lost my DG, I should request no-gyro vectors to a military field, because military controllers were much more familiar with the process. Somebody else mentioned the confusion that resulted from "stop turn" and "start turn" sounding similar. I had to go look it up in the PCG to refresh my memory, but the correct phrasology is "turn right / turn left" and "stop turn". There's no "start turn" anywhere in the conversation. Or at least there shouldn't be. We used to ask Otis AFB (ANGB?) on Cape Cod for practice no-gyro approaches whenever we were in the area and they were usually happy to do it. They were set up to run PAR (Precision Approach Radar) approaches. Nothing could be simpler for the pilot. At some point they tell you to switch to half-standard rate turns and stop acknowledging radio calls. The controller then gives you a constant stream of instructions and you do whatever they say. At some point, you look up and there's a runway in front of you. Even if the controller at a typical civilian tracon was on the top of their game, they couldn't do it as well because their radar doesn't have the fast update rate of a PAR, and may not see all the way down to the surface.
Thanks for the memory! Remembered doing a GCA/PAR "under the hood" at a nearby military field with all the gyros covered way back in the day when I was getting my PPL. Talk about fatigue!
Wow, wow, wow. If it were me flying, this would definitely be a code brown moment. This is exactly why all aircraft still have a magnetic compass -- that will never change. However, they spin opposite to a typical heading indicator, but it doesn't take too much time to adapt. Nice job, ATC!! I had no idea that they've trained for loss of heading capability -- learned something new. My guess is that one of their IRUs malfunctioned, or worse, their entire IRS. Awesome job, pilots! Nicely done!
@@climbmaintain Yeah, I know you knew. It’s just funny that it’s literally the exact same compass as the 172 I did my instrument training in back in the day.
That aircraft (132EV) uses AHRS for heading information on the EFIS (Not IRS). There is a standby compass in the flightdeck that has all the normal acceleration errors but is pretty accurate when unaccelerated. However, if the problem was caused by a magnetic field being generated somewhere on the plane that should not have been there, then AHRS and the compass would be wrong. Even with the compass working, it's probably better and more precise to just use the help of ATC as they did.
I like the way the person working the radio made sure to inform each new controller, when they were handed off, that they were declaring an emergency and that they had no way of knowing their heading. ATC was amazing .... as usual.
I can imagine the pilots would’ve been wondering if something else was going to go faulty at any moment. I bet those poor passengers got to experience some pretty steep turns - it made me feel a little dizzy just watching the flight path! I’ve never heard ATC giving left and right instructions before so it was cool to hear they can do that. Pretty good teamwork by all.
You do it in instrument training and it's hilarious sometimes how far off the controllers get you to be lined up with the runway. At my university, we'd call the tower a week in advance to practice a no gyro and they'd get a controller in the tower that day that needed the experience. It was pretty neat being blindfolded until near the runway while atc tries to line you up with the runway.
@@WMUDrew Well Andy, most people who make comments on aviation related topics aren't knowledgeable about the world of aviation, so you have to presume it's due to a lack of knowledge. However, I will say, the armchair pilots are the worst in commenting since they think they know what they're talking about and often times embarrass themselves. Regardless, education is the best way to go about a reply with these people. ;)
As with all commentators, the crew and ATC did a great job. I was a little surprised at the 10:45 point in the video where the controller cleared them for a visual approach before the crew stated they had the airport in sight. Yes, they were told to follow the other aircraft for a visual approach, but my understanding is to give a visual approach clearance to an aircraft operating IFR that the aircraft had to first declare the airport in sight. I agree I'm doing a little nit-picking but for upcoming instrument pilots, I thought I'd mention this.
In this situation there seems to be a crm issue here. Why are both pilots on the radio, even stepping on each other at one point? They did a great job in a stressful situation, but shouldn't one communicate whilst the other aviates?
pretty good job with the no gyro vectors considering most controllers will go their entire career without having to issue one so when it happens you just sort of wing it.
@@MrCrystalcranium a magnetic compass would have a hard time inside the metal fuselage. Cell phone compasses are worse as they need constant recalibration. Imagine waving your arms around hoping you calibrate correctly while lives depend on it? The GPS on your phone might help.
CRM is easy 99% of the time but this one wasn't normal and it showed. Still, it's good that there is enough support to keep things well and safe even with more factors not helping.
@@spitcool Do you realize not every viewer of this channel is not a Sully like him. I doubt if Sully were here, he would be so hip and cool as he. using aircraft acronyms. He would understand as smart as he is, he would not try to show up others using terms like CRM, GA. EFB, TOGA, FO. But he was not him he needed to prove what he knows. That type of person is known as a know it all or smart ass.
7:11. it is interesting to note the pilots accents. The Captain (the male voice) is English, and the copilot (female) sounds Chinese/Asian. He steps in when there is uncertainty on when to turn. He is clear and concise and affirmative.
I'm puzzled by this one - a complete loss of all heading information. Aren't we talking about a simple compass heading? Most cockpits I've seen have a backup compass mounted directly above the front panel, and there appears be one in the CRJ-900 cockpit. How can it all just go? There's no redundancy at all?
MH, you're correct! I highly doubt they lost both AHRS. They also could have navigated using the FMS. It sounds like there was a lot of confusion going on in the cockpit.
How will they get where they're going without ever knowing the way? Both pilots spoke with a slight foreign accent, though they were often easier to understand than ATC. There seemed to be some confusion about "start" & "stop" at 1 point. At least it was clarified quickly. Don't airplanes have mechanical instruments for backup in case the electronics malfunction or fail outright?
I'd replace my vac pump if it had more than 250 hrs on it in winter time...replaced hock y puck right off...IFR no gyro is a pain in the ass as I've done it more than once....practice often partial panel on nite flights vfr...helps
Some confusion in the cockpit as both pilots tried talking at the same time. One should be flying while the other communicates and trouble shoots the problem.
@@rn2811 Do you realize not every viewer of this channel is not a Sully like you. I doubt if Sully were here, he would be so hip and cool as you. using aircraft acronyms. He would understand as smart as he is, he would not try to show up others using terms like GA. EFB, TOGA, FO. But you are not him you need to prove what you know. That type of person is known as a know it all or smart ass.
Probably so. You hear all of the time in crisis mode pilots forgetting to notice they have the info they need on back up instruments. There was a commercial crash, the one with the bug nest in the captain's pitot tube where he had 3 other speed indicators working right in front of him but he was focused on his erroneous speed indication, stalled and killed over 150 people.
Dude I still don’t know what the issue was because they never communicated it. “Losing Instruments” or “no heading capability” is so vague and unhelpful.
@@ScreaminEmu I agree with you. A clearer statement could have been "we've lost our directional instrumentation and can't navigate by heading vector information". But we shouldn't forget, they were probably task saturated and coms with ATC always involve standard phraseology shorthand. It's possible ATC knew exactly what was going on as described while we're scratching our heads.
@@MrCrystalcranium I agree they were saturated. Is “request a present position hold to work this issue” not taught at EDV anymore? They had like 2 or 3 hours of gas and absolutely could have benefited from it. Or could they even fly a hold? Did the autopilot work? I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS. 😂
If the calibrated instrumentation fails, could they not fall back to mobile device for ‘near accurate’ heading while still following ATC and following their lead and guidance?
Good job by all parties. Was this an Embraer? Not sure what Air Canada regional jets are. Sounds like a British captain, South Korean or Chinese female f.o. Losing your instruments is no joke.
May i know why the controller needed to tell them when to stop the turn instead of just giving them a heading? It would be easier for the pilot and the controller.
I love how training completely takes over during readback ”Heading 040” and it takes her a second to remember that, oh…unable, since heading is the one thing they don’t have :)
Actually the controllers in this instance did not follow correct procedures. A no-gyro approach in an emergency should be done on a single frequency without requiring the flight crew to change and they should have been instructed to make standard rate turns and they need not acknowledge every transmission. That allows the flight crew to concentrate on navigating without having to answer every transmission. Then they should be instructed to make half standard rate turns on final. To be fair, I doubt most controllers are given recurrent training on this nowadays like we were in days past.
I said it on a previous video with a similar issue as this and was disagreed with, but I can pull my smart phone out and get magnetic compass directions to within a few degree. Many modern planes use a tablet that will have a built in GPS chip and compass. It could be mounted on the console somewhere and the pilots would at least have an idea of where they're pointed. It's not going to be as good as the instruments in the plane when they're working but they're better than nothing. They can at least tell ATC "we have limited compass ability" and then if they're too far off, ATC can say "bring it left/right a couple of degrees" instead of "stop turn...........now". Hell, I had a $5 compass when I was a kid that would be better than "........now"
Does the CRJ-9 not have a magnetic compass? I know it's not nice flying off one, but it can be done, everything I've been taught is that it's a requirement so it would surprise me if they didn't. Also, was any information released in regard to why they lost Heading?
There’s a standby compass. The plane also has 2 primary AHRS systems that can be operated in MAG or DG modes. In MAG they set themselves , and in DG they operate similarly to a traditional DG in a light plane and have to be reset. Honestly I’m not sure what happened here or what exactly they lost, the information was fairly vague and I don’t want to guess.
Has a compass and they should’ve reverted to tracking VOR. They forgot to flip a switch that prevents the Nav system from getting scrambled from the metal pier pilings on RW 13. It’s specifically flagged for review by the pilots but it can get missed.
@@Capecodham Attitude Heading Reference System. The computers which run the primary flight instruments. MAG and DG are modes the AHRS can be operated in. MAGnetic uses onboard flux-gate compasses to automatically set the heading at all times. Directional Gyro uses traditional gyroscopes which must be aligned by the pilots prior to takeoff. DG is almost never used, except at LGA, where there are buried metal pilings near the end of the runway which interfere with the MAG mode. There is also a vertical card compass and a 3rd standby attitude/heading/ILS instrument which displays gps track rather than heading. Comparing this track to the actual compass to confirm it's close would've allowed them to just use that "heading" without accounting for compass acceleration errors and made this whole thing a lot easier. I won't speculate that these pilots screwed up, they did a great job. I
@@andrewfidel2220 I don't buy that. Even if a comp mon issue one I doubt they lost both hdg indication capabilities, they just didn't know how to use a reversionary mode properly and couldn't use the backup properly. Even if you supposition was true, as soon as the atc told gave them a vector they could verify which instrument was unreliable. Also, no reason the compass would ever stop working.
I’m sure it can be. Luckily having two people to the cockpit helps with this. It’s better for them to be with a controller that knows the airspace they are operating in.
Frustrating...yes...necessary...ABSOLUTELY. Once you leave a controller airspace they don't have the full picture of the next airspace. Who would you rather be on the radio with?
I don't believe the GPS provides heading. Even if it did it would likely be too slow in responding to be useful. Likewise the magnetic compass is slow to respond and can bounce around a bit. Not like when you're stationary on the ground.
@@markmarkplace magnetic compasses respond quickly and smoothly. That's why they are installed. When I first took lessons, the J-3 only had a magnetic compass. They work at sea, in caves and do land nav and surveying. GPS do give headings, if you're moving.
@@stevek8829 There are many errors from magnetic compasses especially on jets. With heated windscreens they rarely point in the correct direction and even without that there are the turning and acceleration errors. GPS does not give heading it gives a ground track which can be used would be difficult to do with your head pointed straight down looking at the FMS.
@@MGXsport The standby compass isn’t perfect, but it’s plenty good enough to comply with a “turn left/right heading ###” instruction from ATC. If the heading you turn to is a bit off, and it won’t be by more than 10 or so degrees, then ATC can issue a “turn an additional 10* left/right” instruction. The standby compasses on the CRJ are also calibrated with the windshield heat on with a compass correction card located directly beneath them.
Exactly. Makes me wonder about pilot training esp after the AF 447 where they stalled the plane even though it was only the ASI that was out. The procedure is to use the artificial horizon and keep the plane level and the power settings unchanged.
LOL! Are you going to declare an emergency? Because ATC already has, they just want to know if you have realized yet. ATC are such professionals. Keeping the crew calm, like a medic dealing with a major wound that would only get worse if the patient panicked too. Were they IMC? Sounds like it or they could have flown visually to the airport.
Just nitpicking here but, when using a radio, try to use words that pronounce clearly and sound different from each other. You’ll notice at one point, there’s some confusion about start vs stop turn. If the air traffic controller would have used words like “begin right turn” and “stop right turn”, those phrases sound completely different and could prevent confusion in an already hectic environment. Just good for thought and great job to everyone involved working with what they had.
I wonder if he transmission quality of the radios has been accurately portrayed here or if in reality the transmissions were much clearer? I do hope so because at times they were not very clear, muffled and scratchy and at one point an unidentified transmission broke in. If not then I am surprised, with modern day technology voice communication can be "clear as a bell" and in this industry surely it is warranted?
@@robertgates5164 I’m aware about the approach but technically they should have been able to fly a heading with that compass alone. I just think they overlooked that they had that.
That controller knew instantly what needed to be done. No unneeded questions or confusion. The pilots said they had no heading, and he immediately started guiding them. All the controllers seemed to do an excellent job keeping calm and patient and guiding the pilots to the runway. And of course the pilots did an amazing job recognizing their problem, letting it be known, repeating each frequency change that they were emergency and the nature of the emergency, and getting their plane safely back to the ground. I'd feel safe flying with these guys for sure!
And everyone was super calm. All around great job from everyone
Sometimes there is attitude, this went smooth.
No heading? The compass failed too? Thought those were required on ALL aircraft for situations like this.
@@eneking2022:
A compass is hard to read at night. It’s often located at a position that makes it hard to use.
All the Air Force planes I ever worked on had a light in the compass and had it mounted in the center of the cockpit windscreen It’s there for exactly this reason… to be available when everything else has failed. It’s just hard for me to believe that two professional pilots, in an internationally certified airframe, did not have a working compass.
HOLY CRAP the lady was My flight instructor!!! I just ran into here literally a few days ago. we haven’t seen each other since we flew last year. I’m so glad shes ok. Ps she didn’t tell me about this but recognized that voice and texted her 😅
Skybound??
Sounds like Veigh... Is that her?
@@BobbyGeneric145 no
Is her English better in reality than it sounds here? Because this sounds a lot like broken asian English and the captain having to jump in several times to save the conversation
@@alexti2010yes her English is better in person
As a controller (retired) I can say a no gyro vector is not easy and takes a lot of attention. As to all the comments about the magnetic compass I have this.
Magnetic compasses on jets are there for+a legal requirement. They have to be carefully placed to be even somewhat accurate, and at the rates the jet moves in comparison to the compass makes them all but useless except for general heading ideas. It would be nearly impossible to do any type of instrument procedure with just a magnetic compass.
And as to the idea of using your cell phone…. We’ll there are so many problems with that. Just to mention one, the compass isn’t calibrated, nor is it designed to give anywhere near accurate information and when used in that environment with all the electronics and metal it would be less reliable than a controller who can see exactly where the plane is headed.
Except the controller had no idea what the actual issue was because they never freaking communicated it. What “instruments” do/dont you have? Can you use your compass? Can you fly an ILS or navigate to a waypoint? The first guy literally gave up trying to ask specifically what was wrong. And, just for the record, our compasses aren’t as wildly inaccurate as you say. It *can* be a valuable tool.
2nd comment you sound like an arm chair pilot. Have you ever been in a situation like this, not to mention in busy NY airspace. Aviate, navigate, communicate.
Your cellphone won't work. They're legally required to no longer function somewhere near the speeds jets travel at to prohibt terrorists using them as nav systems in guided missiles.
@@ScreaminEmu I have significantly more experience than you apparently can imagine. I doubt you have ever tried to actually navigate via a magnetic compass at speeds over 170kts and tried to roll out on a turn with the accuracy of less than 5 degrees that would be required at minimum to shoot an approach. None of the controllers really needed to know the extent of what was and wasn’t working, only that the aircraft wasn’t able to turn to and hold a specific heading. Your questions that you think were necessary show your lack of understanding the situation. You can’t fly an ILS or any other approach without first being established on a heading that will intercept that approach, you must know how far off and which direction the approach course is from that, and you must know when to start the turn on.
But since you know how to do this you can answer these questions
what is the maximum lead or lag in a half standard rate turn at 170kts?
When is the compass leading and when lagging?
If on a half standard rate turn at 140kts turning from a heading of 015degrees to a heading of 355 degrees at what heading do you begin to roll out level to establish the new heading plus or minus 2 degrees?
Can you even establish a heading on a magnetic compass with that much accuracy?
Bottom line is given no accurate and reliable heading information the best possible way is to get that information from a source that has the situational awareness to assist. That is exactly what the controllers did, and apparently well enough.
@@efoxxok7478 couldn't ATC have just vectored them to the ILS 4 ?
I´m really impressed by this amazing cooperation between pilots and ATC. No stress, no unnecessary questions, just faithful guidance "through the dark". Makes me feel secure as a passenger. Hats off!
@Planeguy101 Why so rude?
@@workingonanamesI’m not
@@hectorbenavides5175 ?
That was fantastic. As a passenger it is heartening to know that aircrew and ATC are able to deal with things like this thrown at thrm
We’ve got you! And everyone will learn from this so that we can do an even better job next time.
Unfortunately, many of the milestones we’ve had in safety and rules have been paved with blood. Our rules are built upon our mistakes and determination to not let them repeat.
I’m glad you feel that way… but as a former instructor and check pilot for that company, they actually did a poor job, became fixated and failed to use backup equipment. They took a minor issue (threat) and turned it into a major issue. Glad the outcome was good. But this is how minor issues can develop into accidents.
@@danwonders9403 How do you know whether or not the backup instruments failed or not?
@@NeelHippalgaonkar the mag compass is a stand alone instrument with NO outside source of ANYTHING needed to function. In my 22 years of flying airline, instructing, and giving checkrides I have NEVER heard of a mag compass failure (which is only one of the heading backups). The likelihood of both AHRS (attitude and heading reference system) failing is almost zero. These two simply didn’t recognize the problem and failed to switch to the “good” AHRS system and remained on the failed side which was giving them faulty info…
Chuckled at the 040 heading glitch. Thank God for the controller's precision radar and personal experience that gave him the ability to steer the plane in. With lives on the line, the cohesiveness between the two was important to land the plane, experience played a big part. To lose instruments is huge
finally a video about a professional, well performing team in an emergency situation! What a great team effort. Turned out well.
What an amazing video! I did read the forewords from the poster but I didn't expect it was this good. They made it sound so easy. Truly terrific collaboration. This video is a gem and must be kept. Thank you very much for finding and posting this.
Thank you for watching 🙂
Great teamwork here, like guiding a man through a minefield. These are professionals!
Appreciate the controllers directing them manually back to LGA 👏🏼
Great work by the ATC as well as the crew resource management. This shows why this industry is so tight and safe.
That must have been really nerve wracking to lose your instruments especially in one of the worlds busiest airspaces. Great job to the pilots and controllers for working together. It’s not like flight simulator where you can just do a U turn and come go back to land. You have dozens of aircraft above and below you. One little error in heading indication can be devastating.
With all of the swapping of which pilot was handling the radios, I'd guess they were pretty busy on the flight deck. Well done to get through all off the extra workload and get back on the ground safely. And it sure appears that the controllers are prepared for such a situation. They all did exactly the same thing helping the pilots get around.
The switching around of who was on the radio multiple times is a sign of confusion, not a high work load. The first thing the captain should do in an abnormal is assign roles (endeavor has the pilot flying assign roles). There are several indicators in this event of confusion and lack of procedural adherence by the pilots. I am glad they are safe, but their tunnel vision and confusion they failed to used multiple backup systems available to them.
@@danwonders9403 I see it slightly differently. Keeping in mind the general order of priorities - aviate, navigate, communicate - keeping the plane flying and on a safe course is the main task. And that navigation task is made significantly harder by the loss of some navigation instruments. There is also going to be some concern for the potential loss of aviation instruments - lose your artificial horizon and/or altimeter while in instrument conditions, and you're in a world of hurt. Communication was simply taking a back seat and - perhaps by design - being handled by whichever pilot had the ability to deal with communication at that moment. That would be a workload issue and not a confusion issue.
@@oldguydoesstuff120 I appreciate your perspective. However, that’s not how an airline two person crew works. (Yes Aviate, Navigate, Communicate is still the priority). There are divided and assigned responsibilities. In this circumstance one pilot would have the responsibility of the radios and that would be ASSIGNED to him/her. For them to switch back and forth completely illustrates a lack of protocol and confusion of “who is doing what” on the flight deck. In the realm of Threat and Error Management (the new CRM) this introduces an unnecessary threat. Again, I appreciate your perspective…. But by saying “whichever pilot had the ability to deal with the communication at that moment” illustrates a complete breakdown in emergency proceedures for an airline crew. This doesn’t even mention they had made a minor issue of ONE system failure into a major deal that never should have been. There are THREE independent heading systems on that plane. ONLY ONE had failed (I’ve discussed this with people I still know at that airline). This crew failed in a number of ways. Misidentifying the correct problem could have caused a much worse outcome….
@@danwonders9403 the male voice appears to be the one flying to me, and probably the captain judging his cool demeanor. The female voice appeared to be handling radios amongst supporting the captain with flying. The captain only replied on radio with info such as his speed. With the FO elbows deep in proceedures and tangled in her radio, she would have to ask the captain their speed and relay back
@@BrentLobegeier at endeavor (and everywhere I’ve worked) during an abnormal, the pilot flying is the one working the radios. This frees up the other pilot to work the QRH and administrative duties. (From knowing the inside scoop) these two never established nor adhered to assigned roles (threat) and never understood the problem thus not finding the proper QRH procedure (which would have lead them to switching AHRS. (That doesn’t excuse the lack of private pilot 101 and use the mag compass and standard rate turns). They landed safe, and that’s great. I’m just saying that all the praise people are giving them is undeserved as they screwed a lot up which caused a simple situation to become much closer to an incident than necessary. Airlines are safe ONLY due to adherence to procedures. They didn’t follow them and thus lost the added error management.
The controller was amazing. Realized quickly what was happening and did start and stop turns. I have had this failure in a crj. 3 compasses all pointing at wildly different headings. It was an AHRS failure.
Do you guys not have the old school magnetic compasses?
@@douglastisdale7035 vertical compass card. But it’s more complicated than that. Because of the glass and the course being mis aligned on the “HSI”. There’s a procedure to resolve it.
Is the CRJ only equipped with one AHRS? Is there no way to revert between them if not?
I’m on the ERJ and we have two AHRS and two ADC’s, and we can pull info from either one on either PFD. I was so confused by this one thinking “you can’t just flip a switch and fix it?”
@@byronhenry6518 some CRJ are AHRS some are IRS. (Inertial reference system). There’s a QRH procedure to work through the problem. When I had it that’s what we did and we were able to continue the flight. When all 3 compasses are different you have to determine which is correct. But in the mean time you are busy. This is a departure and you need to figure out where to fly. The path shown on the instruments won’t be aligned with the path the airplane is flying. I asked for a heading. Hand flew on the compass card then we worked the qrh to get it to the AHRS that was working, selected it then we were able to orient and fly normally. Why didn’t this crew? I don’t know their failure but you can bet they referenced their QRH. They had awesome help from ATC and they returned safely. As I said it’s very confusing when the maps and instruments all differ.
@@imaPangolin interesting insight to the CRJ’s systems, thanks for sharing that.
Fun fact: These "start turn - stop turn" procedures were created a few decades ago to address a number of fatal accidents in general aviation (mostly single-engine piston-engine planes). The typical panel of these airplanes included the pitot-static instruments (airspeed, altitude and vertical speed), and the vacuum pump gyro instruments (artificial horizon and gyro compass). Since the vacuum pump was not super reliable, and its failure would leave the pilot without artificial horizon which is likely deadly in instrument meteorological conditions, these airplanes were required a turn coordinator or tun-and-slip indicator (another gyroscopic instrument) powered by an electric motor instead of vacuum, so they would not be affected by the failure of the vacuum pump. This instrument doesn't indicate pitch and it doesn't directly indicate bank directly either, but it indicates if the plane is turning to the left or right and at which rate, which is correlated to the bank angle. So the pilot would use this to turn or level the wings, the airspeed indicator and vertical speed to control pitch, and the wet compass for heading. That was called "partial panel" and, while pilots were required to demonstrate proficiency in that in check rides, it proved to be too much workload and vacuum pump failures in instrument conditions ended up in fatal accidents more often than not. Looking at the compas was particularly distracting because the wet compass is not in de direct field of view of a pilot focusing in the main flight instruments. Looking at the wet compass meant distracting the attention away from the main flight instruments, getting confused with the indication behavior of the compass (lag, inertia, direction of rotation...) to which pilots are not used to, and worst of all, moving the head, which can cause very disorienting sensations when in instrument conditions. So these procedures were created to address that, and they were called "no-gyro vectors". The pilot would flight wings level, trim the plane for the desired speed at constant altitude, and focus most of their attention in the electric turn coordinator to keep the plane upright. The controller, instead of vectoring "turn right heading 210" (which in theory was within the abilities of the plane and pilot, but in practice not so much), would call "start right turn" and the pilot would establish a standard-rate turn (180 deg/min) which at the speeds of these planes requires a very mild 15 degrees of bank or so. The pilot would not know the bank because the artificial horizon would not be working, but they would just apply a bit of right aileron to slowly start rolling the plane to the right, which would initiate a right turn of increasing torn rate and bank, and would neutralize the ailerons when the turn coordinator indicated the standard rate of turn. Then would make small adjustments to keep the turn coordinator at about the standard turn mark. When the controlled called "stop turn" the pilot would slowly apply opposite aileron until the turn coordinator was centered, and then neutralize the ailerons and make small corrections to keep the turn coordinator centered.
These saved some lives, but there were still quite a few deaths from vacuum pump failures. The next improvement was to start adding a backup electric artificial horizon, but now most new general aviation airplanes come equipped with glass PFD (primary flight display) that don't have mechanical gyros (neither vacuum nor pump powered) but they have AHRS (attitude and heading reference systems) which are mems gyros (like the ones in drones) to measure attitude (pinch and bank) and they actually measure the magnetic field of the Earth to measure heading, and all the information (together with airspeed, altitude, vertical speed and navigation info) is presented in a computer screen. These instruments are extremely accurate, extremely reliable, and have a battery backup so you don't lose them in the case of an electrical system failure. Add a backup electric artificial horizon or a second glass PFD, and you are almost guaranteed to always have a working artificial horizon in the cockpit. These accidents still happen but at a much lower rate.
Actually no-gyro approaches have been around since there were gyros.
@Wil H Are you sure of that? I am not but I believe that there was a time when the pilot was expected to deal with a partial panel and be able to handle vectors, that is turns and headings, using the turn coordinator and wet compass. Which is doable but consumes lots of the pilot’s cognitive resources.
Another key to making no gyro vectoring and approaches work is that the pilot does standard rate turns. That is crucial for the controller, and even the pilots to know how many degrees of change have occurred in a specific period of time.
that's too much to read, bro.!!!!!!!!!!
@@MrMustangMan ... Then don't read it. Or do. I'm sure you could do it if you tried, bro.
This is why I love the little old fashioned floating magnetic compass that you see in Boeing cockpits.
Wow, that was just amazing work between ATC and the Pilots, fantastic job.
that sounded like a bit of a nightmare to coordinate! i'm glad they can work together so well with all these different people to get down safely.
Especially when one of the pilots speaks only broken English.
@@noname-zg8lh broken english? That's a stretch. They had no issues communicating besides blocking each other.
Reminds me of that game to teach kids programming: kid 1 is the robot and kid 2 shouts instructions to navigate the robot through a maze.
That looked like all kinds of fun for the pilots and the ATCs.
Well done by everyone involved
My mom used to do that to navigate me through dinner. We didn't know what a programming language was when I was a kid.
Well I think it was a bit stressful for the pilots, less fun I guess. But they made it!
I was molested playing that game. So much shouting 😞
This brought back memories of my days as a USAF, RAPCON controller back in the 70's and 80's. When ever we got notification of an inbound USAF Flight Inspection aircraft, we always were prepared for an extensive evaluation. When ever they requested vectors for a PAR approach (or ILS approaches too), we were ready for them to read back back the correct heading assigned but we'd look out for them to fly 30 to 40 degrees off. Seems like every time I worked one I would be issuing phraseology like "Flight Check 11, It appears your gyro is inoperative; This will be no-gyro vectors to the PAR final approach course. Make standard rate turns." Then when the PAR controller took over, pilots were instructed to make "half standard rate turns." Fun times!! Also, since we always had various aircraft in the pattern shooting practice approaches, we would ask if they would allow us to practice no-gyro vectoring!! It was good training for the pilots too!! I'm guessing this probably isn't done today...
When I retired in late 2003 PARs were almost non existent in the AF anymore. Army airfields and Navy still performed them however. Unsure of current times however. I think one of the last ones we did was to Cairns AAF at Ft Rucker, Alabama.
Too bad you didn't have a Gonna Crash Anyway radar unit. Oh sorry... that's a Ground Control Approach (GCA) system. My gawd they were horrible. Horrible to use... and just as horrible to maintain. ATC Radar Maintenance from '76 to '86.
Amazing how the controllers and pilots work so well together to guide the plane in.
Eons ago when I was learning instruments, I was taught that if I lost my DG, I should request no-gyro vectors to a military field, because military controllers were much more familiar with the process. Somebody else mentioned the confusion that resulted from "stop turn" and "start turn" sounding similar. I had to go look it up in the PCG to refresh my memory, but the correct phrasology is "turn right / turn left" and "stop turn". There's no "start turn" anywhere in the conversation. Or at least there shouldn't be. We used to ask Otis AFB (ANGB?) on Cape Cod for practice no-gyro approaches whenever we were in the area and they were usually happy to do it. They were set up to run PAR (Precision Approach Radar) approaches. Nothing could be simpler for the pilot. At some point they tell you to switch to half-standard rate turns and stop acknowledging radio calls. The controller then gives you a constant stream of instructions and you do whatever they say. At some point, you look up and there's a runway in front of you. Even if the controller at a typical civilian tracon was on the top of their game, they couldn't do it as well because their radar doesn't have the fast update rate of a PAR, and may not see all the way down to the surface.
Thanks for the memory! Remembered doing a GCA/PAR "under the hood" at a nearby military field with all the gyros covered way back in the day when I was getting my PPL. Talk about fatigue!
The similarity of start and stop worried me a little, so it's good to know that there are recognised, better alternatives.
ATC lined them up with a regional jet and told them to follow them in. Brilliant
Oooooh, I hadn't realized the significance of that regional jet. 👍🏻👍🏻
Yeah, I noticed that too.
That was a very smart and reliable move. Great thinking!
And that's the way it is done, folks. Good show!
👍🙂😎
Amazing video. Best in a while. All concerned were very impressive. Really cool what can be done now for us to be safe
Nice work all - did not know they still taught ATC no compass approaches - good to see they do
Wow, wow, wow. If it were me flying, this would definitely be a code brown moment. This is exactly why all aircraft still have a magnetic compass -- that will never change. However, they spin opposite to a typical heading indicator, but it doesn't take too much time to adapt.
Nice job, ATC!! I had no idea that they've trained for loss of heading capability -- learned something new.
My guess is that one of their IRUs malfunctioned, or worse, their entire IRS. Awesome job, pilots! Nicely done!
👍 Thank you for the comment.
@@climbmaintain It’s a vertical card compass, the same as a lot of C172’s I used to fly.
@@climbmaintain Yeah, I know you knew. It’s just funny that it’s literally the exact same compass as the 172 I did my instrument training in back in the day.
@@climbmaintain Sweet!
That aircraft (132EV) uses AHRS for heading information on the EFIS (Not IRS). There is a standby compass in the flightdeck that has all the normal acceleration errors but is pretty accurate when unaccelerated. However, if the problem was caused by a magnetic field being generated somewhere on the plane that should not have been there, then AHRS and the compass would be wrong. Even with the compass working, it's probably better and more precise to just use the help of ATC as they did.
I just wonder didn't they have a standby compass that they could have used in this particular situation?
I like the way the person working the radio made sure to inform each new controller, when they were handed off, that they were declaring an emergency and that they had no way of knowing their heading. ATC was amazing .... as usual.
I can imagine the pilots would’ve been wondering if something else was going to go faulty at any moment. I bet those poor passengers got to experience some pretty steep turns - it made me feel a little dizzy just watching the flight path! I’ve never heard ATC giving left and right instructions before so it was cool to hear they can do that. Pretty good teamwork by all.
You do it in instrument training and it's hilarious sometimes how far off the controllers get you to be lined up with the runway. At my university, we'd call the tower a week in advance to practice a no gyro and they'd get a controller in the tower that day that needed the experience. It was pretty neat being blindfolded until near the runway while atc tries to line you up with the runway.
They would not exceed a 30° bank anyway, why would it be a steep turn?
I'm pretty sure the pilots and passengers were like:
"WhATS HApPeNING?!"
@@SpecLife I’m 100% certain that the were calm and professional, just like the ATC recording in the video.
@@WMUDrew Well Andy, most people who make comments on aviation related topics aren't knowledgeable about the world of aviation, so you have to presume it's due to a lack of knowledge. However, I will say, the armchair pilots are the worst in commenting since they think they know what they're talking about and often times embarrass themselves.
Regardless, education is the best way to go about a reply with these people. ;)
Is there not a whisky compass in the CRJ9?
wow that was great. Those ATCs maneuvered a blind jet around very congested air space like pros.
At 1:30, that's the Sully flight air traffic controller.
Patrick Harten.
m.th-cam.com/video/Z1xBXopdKNo/w-d-xo.html&feature=share
Wow!!!!!!
Thank you, i didn't know that.
This is absolutely amazing
As with all commentators, the crew and ATC did a great job. I was a little surprised at the 10:45 point in the video where the controller cleared them for a visual approach before the crew stated they had the airport in sight. Yes, they were told to follow the other aircraft for a visual approach, but my understanding is to give a visual approach clearance to an aircraft operating IFR that the aircraft had to first declare the airport in sight.
I agree I'm doing a little nit-picking but for upcoming instrument pilots, I thought I'd mention this.
Amazing!!! Seriously impressive. Cool heads prevail.👍
No heading capabilities? What happened to the good old compass?
Dont they have an analogue compass just below the overhead??
In this situation there seems to be a crm issue here. Why are both pilots on the radio, even stepping on each other at one point? They did a great job in a stressful situation, but shouldn't one communicate whilst the other aviates?
Even my hands are sweating after this video. Great how they tailgated the plane at their 12 o'clock to lead them to the airport.
Hands sweating? Grow a pair.
pretty good job with the no gyro vectors considering most controllers will go their entire career without having to issue one so when it happens you just sort of wing it.
Amazing teamwork!
Where is the water compass?! I had to learn how to fly IMC using the standby magnetic compass...
Does the CRJ9 not have a backup compass?
His iPhone had a backup compass! 😁😁😁😁😁😁
Of course it does, and it works. And I know pilots know where it is because they write all over the back of the compass card constantly. 😂
@@MrCrystalcranium a magnetic compass would have a hard time inside the metal fuselage. Cell phone compasses are worse as they need constant recalibration. Imagine waving your arms around hoping you calibrate correctly while lives depend on it? The GPS on your phone might help.
Perfect declaration and communication of emergency status from lady pilot with each controller change. .. effectively efficient.
CRM is easy 99% of the time but this one wasn't normal and it showed. Still, it's good that there is enough support to keep things well and safe even with more factors not helping.
CRM? Salesforce Inc
NYSE: CRM
crew resource management
@@spitcool
Do you realize not every viewer of this channel is not a Sully like him. I doubt if Sully were here, he would be so hip and cool as he. using aircraft acronyms. He would understand as smart as he is, he would not try to show up others using terms like CRM, GA. EFB, TOGA, FO. But he was not him he needed to prove what he knows.
That type of person is known as a know it all or smart ass.
Nuts! Good teamwork
👍😎🙂
7:11. it is interesting to note the pilots accents. The Captain (the male voice) is English, and the copilot (female) sounds Chinese/Asian. He steps in when there is uncertainty on when to turn. He is clear and concise and affirmative.
I'm puzzled by this one - a complete loss of all heading information.
Aren't we talking about a simple compass heading? Most cockpits I've seen have a backup compass mounted directly above the front panel, and there appears be one in the CRJ-900 cockpit. How can it all just go? There's no redundancy at all?
Two independent AHRS systems as well as a traditional standby compass installed on these planes. How did they lose any ability to determine heading?
MH, you're correct! I highly doubt they lost both AHRS. They also could have navigated using the FMS. It sounds like there was a lot of confusion going on in the cockpit.
@@luv2fly452 I was kinda thinking the same thing. Connect auto-pilot and fly via the FMS(or whatever it's called on the CRJ.) If it was working.
Great job
Marco!.....Polo!!!! Nice job by everyone. Glad they didn't ask for souls and fuel 5 times! They had more than enough to do.
How will they get where they're going without ever knowing the way?
Both pilots spoke with a slight foreign accent, though they were often easier to understand than ATC. There seemed to be some confusion about "start" & "stop" at 1 point. At least it was clarified quickly.
Don't airplanes have mechanical instruments for backup in case the electronics malfunction or fail outright?
If you watch the movie, "The Big Lift," about the Berlin airlift, you'll see then using radar guided approaches in IMC. I think it's here on the Tube.
Why didn't they go to Newark?
Correct me if I am wrong but you should have a compass on board
A compass is hard to read at night. It’s often located at a position that makes it hard to use.
No magnetic compass for backup??? What if they had been outside of radar coverage???
Can somebody tell me why they couldn’t have used the magnetic compass?
Did their backup compass fail also?
That one controller gave me anxiety. Wow she was bad! Thankfully they handed over to the controller they had earlier.
Huh... So CRJs don't have a backup magnetic compass like Airbus?
I'd replace my vac pump if it had more than 250 hrs on it in winter time...replaced hock y puck right off...IFR no gyro is a pain in the ass as I've done it more than once....practice often partial panel on nite flights vfr...helps
Some confusion in the cockpit as both pilots tried talking at the same time. One should be flying while the other communicates and trouble shoots the problem.
👍
Those aircraft are either AHRS or IRS dual equipped. Did both fail? Highly unlikely but possible.
The good old PAR into LGA. New York ATC is the shit…nicely done.
PAR?
Precision approach radar. It’s controller guidance to the runway.
@@rn2811 Do you realize not every viewer of this channel is not a Sully like you. I doubt if Sully were here, he would be so hip and cool as you. using aircraft acronyms. He would understand as smart as he is, he would not try to show up others using terms like GA. EFB, TOGA, FO. But you are not him you need to prove what you know.
That type of person is known as a know it all or smart ass.
Did their compass break too? Finally, at over 9 minutes somebody used the "no-gyro vector ” phraseology.
Probably so. You hear all of the time in crisis mode pilots forgetting to notice they have the info they need on back up instruments. There was a commercial crash, the one with the bug nest in the captain's pitot tube where he had 3 other speed indicators working right in front of him but he was focused on his erroneous speed indication, stalled and killed over 150 people.
Dude I still don’t know what the issue was because they never communicated it. “Losing Instruments” or “no heading capability” is so vague and unhelpful.
@@ScreaminEmu I agree with you. A clearer statement could have been "we've lost our directional instrumentation and can't navigate by heading vector information". But we shouldn't forget, they were probably task saturated and coms with ATC always involve standard phraseology shorthand. It's possible ATC knew exactly what was going on as described while we're scratching our heads.
@@MrCrystalcranium I agree they were saturated. Is “request a present position hold to work this issue” not taught at EDV anymore? They had like 2 or 3 hours of gas and absolutely could have benefited from it. Or could they even fly a hold? Did the autopilot work? I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS. 😂
A no gyro vector is easier to handle than compass turns, especially on a heavier airplane you are hand flying.
If the calibrated instrumentation fails, could they not fall back to mobile device for ‘near accurate’ heading while still following ATC and following their lead and guidance?
Good job by all parties. Was this an Embraer? Not sure what Air Canada regional jets are.
Sounds like a British captain, South Korean or Chinese female f.o.
Losing your instruments is no joke.
May i know why the controller needed to tell them when to stop the turn instead of just giving them a heading? It would be easier for the pilot and the controller.
They where unable to see their heading, as they said 😎
I love how training completely takes over during readback ”Heading 040” and it takes her a second to remember that, oh…unable, since heading is the one thing they don’t have :)
I chuckled when she automatically said that. I was saying, "But..", when the pilot remembered they had no heading capability.
Actually the controllers in this instance did not follow correct procedures. A no-gyro approach in an emergency should be done on a single frequency without requiring the flight crew to change and they should have been instructed to make standard rate turns and they need not acknowledge every transmission. That allows the flight crew to concentrate on navigating without having to answer every transmission. Then they should be instructed to make half standard rate turns on final. To be fair, I doubt most controllers are given recurrent training on this nowadays like we were in days past.
Do airliners have wet compasses?
5 days ago there was another endeavour crj9 that lost all directional navigation equipment.... weird...same airport even
Do they not have a magnetic compass?
I thought all aircraft still carried a small magnetic compass as back-up.
I said it on a previous video with a similar issue as this and was disagreed with, but I can pull my smart phone out and get magnetic compass directions to within a few degree. Many modern planes use a tablet that will have a built in GPS chip and compass. It could be mounted on the console somewhere and the pilots would at least have an idea of where they're pointed. It's not going to be as good as the instruments in the plane when they're working but they're better than nothing. They can at least tell ATC "we have limited compass ability" and then if they're too far off, ATC can say "bring it left/right a couple of degrees" instead of "stop turn...........now". Hell, I had a $5 compass when I was a kid that would be better than "........now"
Does the CRJ-9 not have a magnetic compass?
I know it's not nice flying off one, but it can be done, everything I've been taught is that it's a requirement so it would surprise me if they didn't.
Also, was any information released in regard to why they lost Heading?
There’s a standby compass. The plane also has 2 primary AHRS systems that can be operated in MAG or DG modes. In MAG they set themselves , and in DG they operate similarly to a traditional DG in a light plane and have to be reset.
Honestly I’m not sure what happened here or what exactly they lost, the information was fairly vague and I don’t want to guess.
Has a compass and they should’ve reverted to tracking VOR. They forgot to flip a switch that prevents the Nav system from getting scrambled from the metal pier pilings on RW 13. It’s specifically flagged for review by the pilots but it can get missed.
@@SemperGumby75 ...OK now that is a difficult one to say 'OOPS' about
@@Randomguy-ch6je AHRS? MAG? DG?
@@Capecodham Attitude Heading Reference System. The computers which run the primary flight instruments. MAG and DG are modes the AHRS can be operated in. MAGnetic uses onboard flux-gate compasses to automatically set the heading at all times. Directional Gyro uses traditional gyroscopes which must be aligned by the pilots prior to takeoff. DG is almost never used, except at LGA, where there are buried metal pilings near the end of the runway which interfere with the MAG mode. There is also a vertical card compass and a 3rd standby attitude/heading/ILS instrument which displays gps track rather than heading. Comparing this track to the actual compass to confirm it's close would've allowed them to just use that "heading" without accounting for compass acceleration errors and made this whole thing a lot easier. I won't speculate that these pilots screwed up, they did a great job. I
Wouldn't the pilot have a magnetic compass to provide some heading info?
1) I guess he had an HSI instrument to get down through the layer. Would they also have a Turn and Bank gyro on board?
They probably had everything, including a functioning backup ils. They likely froze and never remembered to use them.
@@Shadow__133 they had 3 disagreeing instruments with 3 different headings, pretty hard to know which is correct in that situation.
@@andrewfidel2220 I don't buy that. Even if a comp mon issue one I doubt they lost both hdg indication capabilities, they just didn't know how to use a reversionary mode properly and couldn't use the backup properly. Even if you supposition was true, as soon as the atc told gave them a vector they could verify which instrument was unreliable. Also, no reason the compass would ever stop working.
Wow! Great airmanship!
Way to many frequency changes for a air plane requesting mayday help if you ask me !
With those kind of jerking turns the poor passengers must have been nervous. I was on a regional once years ago when something similar happened.
Does it get frustrating for pilots in emergency situations being handed off all the time?
I’m sure it can be. Luckily having two people to the cockpit helps with this. It’s better for them to be with a controller that knows the airspace they are operating in.
Frustrating...yes...necessary...ABSOLUTELY. Once you leave a controller airspace they don't have the full picture of the next airspace. Who would you rather be on the radio with?
No compass on those regionals? No gyro approach is good but they should at least have a compass
Good job. Do they not have a last resort magnetic compass on the flight deck?
I believe they need that equipment but I'm not familiar with CRJ's cockpit. Maybe someone will tell you this info.
Yes, they absolutely do. The CRJ9 has a vertical card compass.
They do but it's not great for vectors because of the acceleration errors. You have to do standard rate timed turns with mental math.
I wonder if they can use ForeFlight as any guidance as a supplement with ATC.
Incredible to me how they had to manually guide them in via left and right turn instructions. How is there no redundancy for the heading compass?
kind of scary.. glad it turned out okay!
Perhaps it wouldn’t be particularly accurate, but shouldn’t there be some kind of emergency compass on board? I mean, this worked, I suppose…
Can someone explain to me how a heading indicator could go bad and why they cant use GPS or a magnetic compass here?
I don't believe the GPS provides heading. Even if it did it would likely be too slow in responding to be useful. Likewise the magnetic compass is slow to respond and can bounce around a bit. Not like when you're stationary on the ground.
@@markmarkplace magnetic compasses respond quickly and smoothly. That's why they are installed. When I first took lessons, the J-3 only had a magnetic compass. They work at sea, in caves and do land nav and surveying. GPS do give headings, if you're moving.
@@stevek8829 There are many errors from magnetic compasses especially on jets. With heated windscreens they rarely point in the correct direction and even without that there are the turning and acceleration errors. GPS does not give heading it gives a ground track which can be used would be difficult to do with your head pointed straight down looking at the FMS.
@@MGXsport The standby compass isn’t perfect, but it’s plenty good enough to comply with a “turn left/right heading ###” instruction from ATC. If the heading you turn to is a bit off, and it won’t be by more than 10 or so degrees, then ATC can issue a “turn an additional 10* left/right” instruction.
The standby compasses on the CRJ are also calibrated with the windshield heat on with a compass correction card located directly beneath them.
what happened to their mag compass? No way to lose that except throwing it off the plane.
Exactly. Makes me wonder about pilot training esp after the AF 447 where they stalled the plane even though it was only the ASI that was out. The procedure is to use the artificial horizon and keep the plane level and the power settings unchanged.
Was this in IMC? This looks like a nightmare, specially with Manhattan in the way.
LOL! Are you going to declare an emergency? Because ATC already has, they just want to know if you have realized yet. ATC are such professionals. Keeping the crew calm, like a medic dealing with a major wound that would only get worse if the patient panicked too. Were they IMC? Sounds like it or they could have flown visually to the airport.
Confirmed not VMC down to near 3000 at 9:43.
I wonder if there’s a way to avoid so many radio frequency changes in these scenarios. It just adds to the overall complexity of the emergency.
AMS always puts emergencies on a discrete frequency with a dedicated controller.
Just nitpicking here but, when using a radio, try to use words that pronounce clearly and sound different from each other. You’ll notice at one point, there’s some confusion about start vs stop turn. If the air traffic controller would have used words like “begin right turn” and “stop right turn”, those phrases sound completely different and could prevent confusion in an already hectic environment. Just good for thought and great job to everyone involved working with what they had.
Impressive performance by all parties
This was impressive!
I wonder if he transmission quality of the radios has been accurately portrayed here or if in reality the transmissions were much clearer? I do hope so because at times they were not very clear, muffled and scratchy and at one point an unidentified transmission broke in. If not then I am surprised, with modern day technology voice communication can be "clear as a bell" and in this industry surely it is warranted?
Geezum how many people had to contact on ground
Holy shit!!!! That’s amazingly crazy
Don’t they have a old school compass as a backup?
Yes but they aren't accurate enough for approaches and are sluggish at speeds exceeding 170 kts. Coming out a turn accurately is problematic.
@@robertgates5164 I’m aware about the approach but technically they should have been able to fly a heading with that compass alone. I just think they overlooked that they had that.
@@robertgates5164 coming out of a turn let it stabilize then make another correction if necessary.