Understated take: I love that you guys started adding all of the other cards that you all mention when talking about your ratings. Mtg is only getting more complicated so being able to see the cards is amazing
I still feel like Tomer over-exaggerates Hedron Archive's weaknesses out of spite, and Seth tries a little too hard to sell it. Hedron Archive isn't bad, but it isn't amazing either. It strikes me as the kind of card that you put in a precon to upgrade it, and then you later upgrade the deck further by switching it out. I think Hedron Archive has a decent home in some artifact-sacrifice-recursion type decks, but in a random Commander deck it is just fine. It's better than bad and worse than good. I wouldn't make fun of someone for playing it, but I would expect that there are often better options.
Imo, I like hedron archive alot more now that ornithopter of paradise was printed. I play sultai, so I have 4 signets, 3 talismans, mind stone and OoP to ramp me into a 4 drop on turn 3 AND have a chance of playing ANOTHER 2 drop on turn 3. I untap with 8 mana on turn 4. Thats insane enough to commander with protection or just drop a haymaker.
I think it's like a C. I'm never *looking* to put it in a deck, but it will be a good filler if I'm looking for a filler. The problem is that we have such good cards now that we don't have room to just fill
@@bodaciouschad I feel like since you are using green you don't need that many mana rocks I mean you have farseek natures lore harrow utopia sprawl wild growth sure you can put what 3 talismans 3 signets 3 diamonds everflowing chalice prismatic lens mind stone felwar stone arcane Signet and sol ring where do you find room for hedron archive
Hedron archive is good in “over-ramp” decks: basically decks where you are running way more ramp spells than the average deck to quickly get to high cmc game winners (expropriate etc.) Those decks will often get into situations where they’ve built up enough mana but haven’t drawn the bomb, and in those situations it does exactly what you hope it to do.
Yeah 100%. Decks where you're desperate to get to 6+ mana is its home and where it plays well. Thran dynamo puts it to shame a little, but it's a decent second option at 4MV. I think in general almost all 4MV+ mana rocks are for big mana decks. I'm surprised it didn't come up in their discussion properly.
I'm surprised no one mentioned The Immortal Sun. It's an unconditional spell discount, an anthem, and it draws you an extra card. Plus it keeps pesky planeswalkers off your back.
The whole discussion around Sceptre of Eternal Glory is exactly why I don't mind running a bunch of cards that punish nonbasic lands. Mana bases these days are so greedy it makes cards like Blood Moon,Price of Progress, Archon of Emeria, Burning Earth, Primal Order, etc. so much more effective than they have any right to be.
Exactly, I felt like I was going insane hearing people say they wouldn't run a 4 mana rock that refunds you 3 mana in monoblue or monowhite, like of course you would.
I used to believe Tomer for the longest time, but then heard Seth make some good points about Hedron Archive and gave it a shot. That was probably three years ago at this point, and it has never let me down
Tomer comes on here and says if you don't have cards you should have built your deck better, but then sits in games with no cards in hand. I tend not to listen to his opinion when he brings that out- I also think thats the attitude that leads to a lot of boring "Draw/Ramp" commanders instead of fun synergy commanders.
The difference between Mind Stone and Hedron Archive is that if Mind Stone didn't exist you would play a 2 mv mana rock that taps for just 1 colorless. The cantripping is just gravy. Meanwhile no one plays Sisay's Ring.
I think there's an argument that you can take a lot of unplayable cards, like Sisays Ring, and if you staple Sac 2: Draw 2 cards, then they don't remain unplayable. That's the difference here.
I have so many 2MV rocks that I find it difficult justifying anything 3MV or higher if it doesn't have some significant side benefits because I've had some amazing gameplay results even from using some of the "enters tapped" 2MV rocks that either are creatures or can become creatures. To be clear I usually run around 8-10 rocks rarely including 3+MV rocks.
@@Ixidora While there's clear benefits to this, it depends on your commander. More expensive commanders want bigger rocks to get out faster. While MV2 is a sweet spot, there is no one size fits all.
@@apjapki That is fair, I don't generally play commanders over 5MV and don't know how the ramp looks for those decks. The most expensive commander I run is Tivit, Seller of secrets at 6MV but it is my "Welcome to the U.S.S.R." deck and has all my fast mana and proxies as it is my "8/9 power level " deck so mana is less of an issue as Tivit is also a combo piece and is only cast once. Forgive me for my haste, have a great day! :)
Saame, I run galazeth with 34 and regularly miss land drops. It just doesn't "really" matter in the deck because i have a ton of rocks making mana. No way any 31 land deck doesn't miss landdrops
@@SamuelKacerik That's just the honor system, and if you have no honor you'll be kicked out of playgroups pretty quick. As to whether the average person commenting on MtG videos on youtube is honorable... I won't comment on that either way.
I think if we're not taking points from cards with color restrictions like pyromancer's goggles or bolas's(sic) citadel or any multicolor cards, it's fair to say that cards clearly built for mono color decks like scepter can still be As because mono color isn't just an archetype but an important chunk of the format.
Hedron archive embodies the fun and creativity of modern commander: if it's not the most efficient thing possible, it's complete trash. The versatility it offers doesn't matter, because your game plan has to be to pull off a two-card combo on turn four or five, or you're just playing the game wrong. It's a perfectly fine card with good utility, best suited to non-green decks with a decent chunk of mv-5+ cards. In the majority of groups, it's a perfectly good card that will perform exactly the same as its alternatives in 90% of games - sometimes even better with that draw utility. But in the sorts of groups where anything above 3 mana is essentially unplayable, no duh, it's unplayable.
I think it's hard to say Citadel is a mana rock when you can't play anything in your hand, and more crucially, your commander with it. Part of the reason to run mana rocks in commander is to help pay for your commander, either to ramp them out early, or to replay them again. I guess that's less relevant for 4+ mana rocks, but Citadel being a mana rock is a streeeeeeetch. Also, I believe that one crucial thing for commander seperating dynamo vs hedron archive is that dynamo goes infinite with iscochron reversal on it's own, which is HUUUGE and a reason to run thran dynamo by itself.
Coveted jewel is one of my favorites, particularly for thantis the warweaver or goad based decks! Effects like these actively speed up the game (like monarchy, the curse cycle)
Do you have a Coveted Jewel in a Thantis deck? I'd been considering doing so, but I was already running monarchy and initiative cards. Hard to fit it in. Also run a decent amount of artifact hate like Bane of Progress and Titania's Song.
Sarevok's tome is amazing. You're undervaluing the initiative. It's easy enough to hold onto and the benefit it gives you each turn on top of the mana rock makes the card phenominal.
Csst the card turn3-4 as normal. Go through the dungeon in 2-5 turns. The soonest you could use it would be turn 6, because it needs 3 mana. That's being generous and if you drew into it the first 4 turns or had it opening hand. The initiative is being rated fairly, the card just isn't fast enough and something like bolas citadel can be played faster and be used multiple times a turn, maybe until you run out of cards if your deck is built right
I actually played against a guy who played a Coveted Jewel the other day, and I was like “oh, this will be interesting” but then he sacrificed it almost immediately to a sac outlet :(
Yeah, kinda sucks that any fun effect like that, the gut instinct of most players is to try and cheat the system instead of have fun. I personally don't understand that "this is a game, I'm not here to have fun I'm here to win" mindset. Just don't play cards like that if you don't want to engage their premise in good faith. Play with the spirit of the game, not just the letter of the rules text.
Hedron Archive is good in battle cruiser metas where the games are grinding and the two cards can help you dig. Nowadays it feels like most decks are able to curve out without issue, meaning the ability to dig sac the rock to dig just isn’t as useful as it used to be.
I've never had any other mana rock take me from an empty board, ready to die, and take me straight to the win. I'm sold on the citadel. (though to be fair, I've never untapped with Great Henge. It always gets blown up.)
I love Phil but can you also put a static text card on the end with any comments from Richard? He had some very hot takes on card draw and I miss his no nonsense attitude.
I like the idea but I'm assuming if Richard doesnt have time to be on this episode then he definitely doesnt have time to sit down and write out his thoughts on all of these cards.
The first deck I put together runs 33 creatures, 33 lands, & 33 non-creature non-lands in the 99. It's a 3 color Marath deck with lots of mana rocks. My greatest land count is for my colorless Ulamog with 40 lands & and incredible amount of mana rocks. Ultimately, I believe if the mana rock costs less than your commander, then it's okay to run it in your deck. *Clash On* !
That's what I subscribe to as well. Generally speaking I want to choose ramp that ramps me into something (usually the commander). In Ulamog I'm totally fine running 4+MV rocks like Hedron Archive because they're ramping me towards the main game plan of getting the commander on to the battlefield.
Shoutout to Tomer for editing in real time the cards as they're being mentioned! Thank you very much for taking up the community's suggestion, it makes the podcast so much easier to follow :)
I'm with Tomer on the Sceptre being good for some decks. I think I might put this in a Feather deck, where getting mana rocks to make lots of coloured mana can sometimes be challenging.
Timeless Lotus is great for me because it's Legendary, and one of my favorite decks is Sisay Legendary tribal; so being able to fetch it up with Sisay is a huge plus. Prismatic Geoscope is so much more playable after New Capenna, now that the full cycle of triomes is complete. Fetches + triomes = two lands to get full value from Geoscope.
@@totalcoward if Citadel is a rock, so is Omniscience, as is Jolene and Prosper. Oh, also the new cycle that let's you pay 2 life for 1 individual color pip. As is K'rrik and fuck it so is Treasonous Ogre. Also, Dockside is a mana rock.
I can totally feel Seth about the land thing. I think their are decks, that don't need as many lands, but those are like super low to the ground. I've had it to often aswell to be stuck on lands when borrowing a deck. I usually start with 37 lands.
Timeless Lotus is amazing in my Sisay, Weatherlight Captain deck for two reasons 1. I don't have an expensive mana base to guarantee max domain 2. You tutor it with Sisay just before your turn, so it immediately replaces itself with instant tutor value
Also counterpoint: I think even outside of a dedicated dungeon deck Sarevok's Tome is at least a B both because it's not that complicated and also I think there are multiple initiative cards that are worth playing.
My problem with most of these in general is that A. Ramp is best done early and cheap, a 4+ mana rock is too slow, I need to be playing big things by then. B. Artifacts get blown up too easily. I’m hesitant to even play Signets since SO many cards these days seem to have “blow up an artifact” tacked on to them in the pickup games I play at my LGS.
Stuff like that has made me legitimately enjoy green less and less over the years. What fun is a card that does everything you'd ever want? Just bad design overall.
@@BW-CZ The stuff that makes me worry is simplifying old challenges. Casting stuff from opponents decks almost always let's you spend mana as if it were any colour now. Clones almost always let you ignore the legend rule. It's sad because it simplifies the complexity of the game.
Tomer is correct about Sceptre of Eternal Glory. That thing is great in mono-color, and the "worry" about not having basic lands is...not a worry at all in mono-color and I'm confused as to why it is.
I picked up coveted jewel a few months back because you guys mentioned it. It's an absolute blast to play with! Super strong too, as soon as there's any synergy going on. Where I have it is in a pillow fort-style deck with high mana haymakers and evasive creatures so I can always take it back and give it away politically. The way it plays, it helps me spiral out of control as it gives both significantly extra mana and a lot of extra cards. It's definitely not for every deck, but since there's so much it works with I'd argue for A tier, with S tier fun!
I’m curious on what the gangs opinion on Stonespeaker crystal is, it’s like Hedron archive, but you’re trading the two cards for one card and exiling graveyards when you sac it instead
I think the reason Primal Amulet doesn't see a bunch of play in Spellslinger is that most spellslinger decks wanna cast cantrips and care more about quantity of spells rather than the quality. Bigger spellslinger lists might want to play it.
Thran Dynamo is probably the most underrated mana rock in commander: 4 mana to basically be able to afford every card in your hand for the rest of the game.
While watching this, I was a bit conflicted on the idea of Bolas' Citadel being a "mana rock" but after thinking about it more, I've determined that anything which is not a land and adds extra mana to your Mana Reserve can be considered a "mana rock" for all intents and purposes, so I think we should decide as a community if this is a take that we can adapt to all of Magic (MTG). If you'd like clarification of what I mean when I say "mana reserve", click 'Read more' "Mana Reserve" refers to the total amount of mana you could generate (of any color, including colorless) from w/e your current board position is. If you have a lone Mountain (untapped), your Mana Reserve is 1 (meaning that there is the potential to add 1 mana to your mana pool). If you have a Mountain and tap it for a Sol Ring, your Mana Reserve is 2 until your Mountain untaps, at which point your Mana Reserve will increase to 3. If you are "tapped out", this should mean your Mana Reserve is 0 or empty.
I mean it maybe a good card if your budget is funded entirely from raiding your little brothers piggy bank but honestly even at casual power level hedron archive is a pretty crappy card.
The issue with primal amulet and spellslinger in my opinion is that spellslinger likes to play a lot of cantrips and the mana reduction doesn't work on 1 mana spells or for spells like expressive iteration
@56:26 Teferi Chain Veil slapped the table with Chromatic Orrery just saying :P I fully recognize that was a cEDH tournament and does not provide a good amount precedent for the entirety of EDH. As for Amulet vs Goggles, I usually prefer the Goggles for my Izzet builds, which are Veyran/Vadrik/Magnus the Red (I use them interchangeably as they share a good portion of their core pieces). Goggles come in and is ready to use. Amulet sits there a bit. Besides, while Crim is partially right that blue mana is important in these decks, some of the newer red spells like Jeska's Will, Finale of Promise, Apex of Power, Brass's Bounty, Chandra's Ignition, Mizzix's Mastery(Overloaded), Big Score, Invoke Calamity, Past in Flames(Flaskback Cost), Magma Opus are game ending when copied.
Making my case Sarevok's Tome. The turn it comes down it taps for 2 and fetches a basic, if you have not played a land for turn it in effect creates 3 mana for 4 (which is a Thran). On the next turn, if you kept the initiative it fixes your draw with Scry 2. Allowing you to find another land or a cast-able spell. If you have lost initiative, it will still nets you two mana if you include the basic land. In the late game after you have completed a dungeon, this works as a repeatable card draw/cascade effect at instant speed. Notably, it exiles cards until you hit a nonland but does nothing with the exiled lands (they aren't shuffled back in) so at the point where you don't need more mana, Sarevok's Tome thins your deck of lands.
29:45 Primal Amulet is not a staple because it has a high cost versus return. The cost reduction is just okay, cards like Goblin Electrodude, Jace's Sanctum and Baral do that better (admittedly all Blue spells, Primal Amulet works in mono-Black Spellslinger and the like!). Getting a Primal Amulet to flip costs at *least* eight Mana unless you have some free Spells - and it's likely you don't just have four CMC 1-2 Instants and Sorceries at the ready. It's a fairly chunky investment and then you need another four I/S's. It's also a very large target for either a KGrip or Ghost Quarter, whereas "just" a cost-reducer is more likely to stick around: Phil immediately pointed out just why spell copies are dangerous by naming Time Warp. It's a fun card, but playing with it is very different from reading it. I'm the only person in our playgroup to flip one, and that's mostly because I'm the one who plays all the Naturalizes to kill Primal Amulets, lmao.
Tomer is right on Scepter of Eternal Glory being a B-Tier. You obviously don't want to play it in a three or more color deck but in a 1 or 2 color deck, you can get a lot of value out of it.
Its a fine card, i dont see myself playing it in anything other than a slightly upgraded precon, i actually belive crim is right 😁 Id say you put it in a precon to first upgrade it a bit and then take it out again one you keep on upgrading later, or if your on a strict budget or if it has synergy like the planeswalker daretti but its not an a for sure Tomer and seth both are a bit over the top in both directions
First time listener to this group and listening to them I don't even feel like we're playing the same game, the thought process behind some of the things they say sound completely crazy.
There's also a "value over multiple turns" factor that you are not accounting for. If your Hedron Archive sits out for lets say 4 turns, you actually got 4 less mana than you would have gotten. And lets say your deck is built poorly or you get unlucky and somehow you run out of gas and have to crack the Archive. That effectively costs 4 mana to do so, since you have to give up 2 mana from tapping the archive in addition to pumping in 2 more mana, and now you're also down 2 mana for the rest of the game since you don't have your archive anymore. And it's especially bad if it gets blown up by a board wipe because then you got no benefit in exchange for having less mana. Commander's Sphere is a superior card to Archive in pretty much every way.
And if you don't agree that it costs 4 mana to crack an Archive, think of it this way. If you have an Archive and 4 lands in play, you have 8 mana to spend, right? But if you crack Archive, how much mana do you have left to spend? That's right, 4 mana left that turn.
@@Tvboy777 Sure, sure. But I doubt that you spend all of your mana on each turns in every game. And sure I too would play commander sphere over many rocks, but the entire video was about comparing 4+ mana rocks so I think that is kind of cheap, like "Did you know that sol ring is in fact better than most mana rocks?" . My point mostly is that I don't think thran dynamo or headron archive are overly good or overly bad. I just think that the 1 mana is such a small difference for the opportunity cost of being able to draw cards if you are in trouble. Basically I'd say Thran Dynamo is better, but I don't agree with Tomer's logic that Headron is unplayable.
Hedron Archive is a fine card. If you play in a group where you can get away with playing 4 mana rocks then I'd definitely play it. I'd say Dynamo is better, but not by a wide margin and they're very comparable. The flexibility is nice and the mana production is still on curve. 4 mana ramp (hell, 3 mana too) in general is just something the internet loves to dump on.
I agree with you Tomer in running many basic lands. My land count in most two color decks is 10 color fixing lands, 10-16 basics or 5-8 of each basic, 2 land destruction to hate out unfair lands, 1-2 graveyard hate lands, and the rest are usually utility lands be they for drawing cards, removal, synergy, or color fixing
Favorite "mana rock" MV 4+: Golden Guardian from Rivals of Ixalan, which transforms into Gold-Forge Garrison. Ghalta decks especially love a 4/4 every turn without spending more cards in hand.
Most of you do not run enough basics. Y'all gotta have enough so that if you get blood mooned, back to basicsed, and have all your rocks and dorks blown up that you can still make enough colored mana to fulfill your colored pips.
Great discussion! To me the discussion about 4+ mana rocks is a little more interesting than the 3mana ones since they are a bit more niche. Just a little suggestion but you could include the price when you display the cards for TH-cam. I swear you used to do it so if it's too much work then no worries. I realize you folks probably bank episodes so the price might change in that time.
There are decks that need the card draw of Archive, but also need the ramp from it too. I play it in Sheoldred for both modes. Early game, it ramps me and let's me push explosive plays. Late game, it turns into a decent card draw spell. It's not necessarily great at either of them, but it's better than the do nothing that Tomer thinks it is.
Ok so for Headron Archive for the most part I agree with Seth The downside it has compared to commandersphere is that you have to pay manna and sacrifice it to draw the cards. If it was tap it sacrifice it draw two cards that'd be a little bit better. Because the nice thing about commander's fear is when somebody wraths all artifacts on the board you can sacrifice it and draw a card in response so you're at least not down a card but I do like the ability to just have extra card drive I need it.
I don't think it was noted, unless I skimmed over it, but prismatic geoscope vs timeless lotus: geoscope lets you add mana "in any combination of colors", so it will let you cast spells with double the same pip, or triple the same, etc, whereas the lotus doesn't. You can also turn it on earlier with things like dryad of the illisian grove, or the world tree, or anything else that makes lands into all land types on one or more lands. And it's not legendary so you can make copies of it and they all work well, card's way better than timeless lotus.
I agree with Seth. This is why I like the Guild Locket Cycle. Once I have enough mana, I don't need the ramp anymore. It's the same logic. I think Tomer and Phil wrong. I agree that Hedron Archive is about a B at best, and I think I would rate it like Crim.
Caged Sun is good for 5 color/one color decks. * Say a white deck that has whatever color creature that's also a white creature. Same goes double for a deck with whatever color creature and also a blue creature. Blue having almost no mana ramp in general, Caged Sun is a major bonus. *All creatures share a common color plus whatever other color they have.
Not an artifact, but no less non-creaturey-dorky than artifacts. And can only be played in decks with a red(-plus) identity, but that's no different than a Boros/Izzet/Rakdos/Gruul Locket (and can actually be played in more decks than those can)...but my vote goes to...Mana Echoes. It's an absolute beast in tokens decks and tribal decks (and even better in tribal tokens decks!). The amount of mana that pours out from it just while you're doing what you're already doing is insane! Best card in my Kykar deck for sure (and that runs literally no creatures in the 99!).
Mind Stone is excellent while hedron Archive is very mid because you can't determine "rate" by just doubling all the numbers. The difference between rampant growth and explosive vegetation is huge, despite it being double the mana cost for double the lands. 2 mana ramp goes into virtually every single deck, while not every deck needs 4 mana ramp, and the decks that do need 4 mana ramp usually aren't running more than like 3-4 of them. Not to mention that if you are green, you are now looking at all the 4+ green ramp like oracle of mul daya, Skyshroud claim, and so on. In my nongreen decks, I run the oncolor signets and talismans and sol ring (then nonbudget decks run mana crypt and grim monolith and friends)..... but mind stone still sometimes makes the cut just because I need enough quantity of 2 drop rocks.
My opinion on Hedron Archive is that its a solid card that doesnt really have too many homes. Yes, it's 8 mana to get the cards, but you hopefully already produced that much or more mana by the time you crack it. I feel like the arguments against it misrepresent the order of actions you take before cracking the archive. you usually dont do that until much later in the game. Also, thran dynamo is better on turns 3 and 4 when you would optimally play it, but that ramp stops mattering the later into the game you get as you hit land drops and cast other spells, where having the archive to get 2 cards becomes much better, again you already got the mana back from it
Saervok's tome seems great in an etb/blink deck to reset the rock and get another venture trigger. Even without being initiative focused this seems pretty cool!
Coveted Jewel is another card that also gets help from the Sheoldred and Quezas of the world. Where you drawing cards is a nice bonus, but you need to get your opponents drawing cards.
Some advice for anyone listening. Run stuff like hedron archive and than dynamo only if you run 6+ of 2 cmc mana rocks like the diamonds, mind stone colorless rocks, and the talismans if they are in your color. It's easier to pump them out on turn 2(if you run 1 mana dorks) or turn 3 if your just playing rocks and lands.
Rules question on Coveted Jewel: OP moves to Attack Phase and attacks me with 1 creature and I have 1 blocker. If, during the Attack Phase, I Bolt his attacker, does OP then essentially "automatically" gain control of the Jewel?
Since Coveted Jewel specifically says the creature needs to "attack and not be blocked" if you Bolt it during the attack phase (before blocks are declared) they won't gain control of it, because it didn't pass through the "was I blocked?" step. If you wait until after blockers and something goes unblocked and then you Bolt it the opponent will still gain control of it though.
Hedron archive has a deckbuilding restriction: It's great if you have 8~ colorless 2 mana rocks AND you need to have either a 6/7 mana commander or plenty of such spells to cast in the deck.
The reason Seth feels like he needs so many lands is pretty apparent from the card draw episode, he favors high cmc high impact card draw spells over the cheaper card draw spells. 30 lands is more than enough if your deck is packed with 1 and 2 mana card filtering and card advantage spells.
You can find our full rankings here: i.imgur.com/d3zRKcT.png
Why on God's green earth did you share this as an image file instead of a spreadsheet?
Crim being the voice of reason and not trolling. It is a brave new world.
Don't be fooled. It's just meta-trolling. Now you'll never know what to expect when you see him
The twist is that Crim was never trolling
Maybe Richard not being there to be the voice of reason is affecting him.
Understated take: I love that you guys started adding all of the other cards that you all mention when talking about your ratings. Mtg is only getting more complicated so being able to see the cards is amazing
I still feel like Tomer over-exaggerates Hedron Archive's weaknesses out of spite, and Seth tries a little too hard to sell it. Hedron Archive isn't bad, but it isn't amazing either. It strikes me as the kind of card that you put in a precon to upgrade it, and then you later upgrade the deck further by switching it out. I think Hedron Archive has a decent home in some artifact-sacrifice-recursion type decks, but in a random Commander deck it is just fine. It's better than bad and worse than good. I wouldn't make fun of someone for playing it, but I would expect that there are often better options.
The hedron archive debate is probably 70% a meme at this point, though.
Imo, I like hedron archive alot more now that ornithopter of paradise was printed. I play sultai, so I have 4 signets, 3 talismans, mind stone and OoP to ramp me into a 4 drop on turn 3 AND have a chance of playing ANOTHER 2 drop on turn 3. I untap with 8 mana on turn 4. Thats insane enough to commander with protection or just drop a haymaker.
I think it's like a C. I'm never *looking* to put it in a deck, but it will be a good filler if I'm looking for a filler. The problem is that we have such good cards now that we don't have room to just fill
@@bodaciouschad I feel like since you are using green you don't need that many mana rocks I mean you have farseek natures lore harrow utopia sprawl wild growth sure you can put what 3 talismans 3 signets 3 diamonds everflowing chalice prismatic lens mind stone felwar stone arcane Signet and sol ring where do you find room for hedron archive
I play it in Osgir, quite often I pay 12 mana for 6 cards after I have more colourless mana than I can spend.
Hedron archive is good in “over-ramp” decks: basically decks where you are running way more ramp spells than the average deck to quickly get to high cmc game winners (expropriate etc.) Those decks will often get into situations where they’ve built up enough mana but haven’t drawn the bomb, and in those situations it does exactly what you hope it to do.
I think they call that 'Big-Mana'
Yeah 100%. Decks where you're desperate to get to 6+ mana is its home and where it plays well. Thran dynamo puts it to shame a little, but it's a decent second option at 4MV.
I think in general almost all 4MV+ mana rocks are for big mana decks. I'm surprised it didn't come up in their discussion properly.
So then by their very rules it objectively is not an A because it is only used in specific decks
The 2 cards off Hedron archive could be anything, they could even be 2 boats
Could even be 2 cards
Two birds
They could even be Thran Dynamo and Mind Stone!
Or 2 hats
You know how much we wanted one of those!
"I don't want to sacrifice a 4 drop to draw 2" Solemn Simulacrum would like to know your location
Yeah, but Archive doesn't block or wear swords
@@nik700 and he is rapidly approaching their location
I mean, at least solems ramp stays and you dont have to pay to draw the card 😁 it blocks, even fear creatures, best sad bot out there
It's easier to abuse ETB triggers
I'm surprised no one mentioned The Immortal Sun. It's an unconditional spell discount, an anthem, and it draws you an extra card. Plus it keeps pesky planeswalkers off your back.
Worth mentioning for sure!
Tomer looking like death at the end of the Hedron Archive debate had me dying
The whole discussion around Sceptre of Eternal Glory is exactly why I don't mind running a bunch of cards that punish nonbasic lands. Mana bases these days are so greedy it makes cards like Blood Moon,Price of Progress, Archon of Emeria, Burning Earth, Primal Order, etc. so much more effective than they have any right to be.
Exactly, I felt like I was going insane hearing people say they wouldn't run a 4 mana rock that refunds you 3 mana in monoblue or monowhite, like of course you would.
I used to believe Tomer for the longest time, but then heard Seth make some good points about Hedron Archive and gave it a shot. That was probably three years ago at this point, and it has never let me down
Listing to tomers takes us usually a mistake outside of budget cards.
Tomer comes on here and says if you don't have cards you should have built your deck better, but then sits in games with no cards in hand. I tend not to listen to his opinion when he brings that out- I also think thats the attitude that leads to a lot of boring "Draw/Ramp" commanders instead of fun synergy commanders.
@@mark1A100Yeah low key his takes are constantly bad.
Tomer should start playing blood moon, back to basics and Ruination in all his decks from now on.
The difference between Mind Stone and Hedron Archive is that if Mind Stone didn't exist you would play a 2 mv mana rock that taps for just 1 colorless. The cantripping is just gravy. Meanwhile no one plays Sisay's Ring.
I think as many people play Sisay's Ring/Ur Golems Eye as play Fractured Powerstone (Mind Stone without the card draw).
Super budget players.
I think there's an argument that you can take a lot of unplayable cards, like Sisays Ring, and if you staple Sac 2: Draw 2 cards, then they don't remain unplayable. That's the difference here.
I have so many 2MV rocks that I find it difficult justifying anything 3MV or higher if it doesn't have some significant side benefits because I've had some amazing gameplay results even from using some of the "enters tapped" 2MV rocks that either are creatures or can become creatures.
To be clear I usually run around 8-10 rocks rarely including 3+MV rocks.
@@Ixidora While there's clear benefits to this, it depends on your commander. More expensive commanders want bigger rocks to get out faster. While MV2 is a sweet spot, there is no one size fits all.
@@apjapki That is fair, I don't generally play commanders over 5MV and don't know how the ramp looks for those decks. The most expensive commander I run is Tivit, Seller of secrets at 6MV but it is my "Welcome to the U.S.S.R." deck and has all my fast mana and proxies as it is my "8/9 power level " deck so mana is less of an issue as Tivit is also a combo piece and is only cast once.
Forgive me for my haste, have a great day! :)
Honestly, gents, don't apologize for calling out all the "My 31-land Ur-Dragon deck never misses a land drop" people.
Saame, I run galazeth with 34 and regularly miss land drops. It just doesn't "really" matter in the deck because i have a ton of rocks making mana.
No way any 31 land deck doesn't miss landdrops
If someone is playing 31 lands just to take advantage of "mulligan till I have a good hand" then we are playing a different game.
31 is just a trash mana base. I go down to 36 and rarely to 35 if the deck is really low curve, but I already feel bad about that lol
@@Jug_or_not 31 is trash mana base for high curve decks. It's perfectly fine for decks that have a very low curve.
@@SamuelKacerik That's just the honor system, and if you have no honor you'll be kicked out of playgroups pretty quick. As to whether the average person commenting on MtG videos on youtube is honorable... I won't comment on that either way.
I think if we're not taking points from cards with color restrictions like pyromancer's goggles or bolas's(sic) citadel or any multicolor cards, it's fair to say that cards clearly built for mono color decks like scepter can still be As because mono color isn't just an archetype but an important chunk of the format.
Hedron archive embodies the fun and creativity of modern commander: if it's not the most efficient thing possible, it's complete trash. The versatility it offers doesn't matter, because your game plan has to be to pull off a two-card combo on turn four or five, or you're just playing the game wrong.
It's a perfectly fine card with good utility, best suited to non-green decks with a decent chunk of mv-5+ cards. In the majority of groups, it's a perfectly good card that will perform exactly the same as its alternatives in 90% of games - sometimes even better with that draw utility. But in the sorts of groups where anything above 3 mana is essentially unplayable, no duh, it's unplayable.
Amen to that, sir. And this is what is wrong with Commander nowadays.
Seeing initiative in action from drafting Baldurs Gate, it's like a better monarch when you build around it, even a little bit.
I think it's hard to say Citadel is a mana rock when you can't play anything in your hand, and more crucially, your commander with it. Part of the reason to run mana rocks in commander is to help pay for your commander, either to ramp them out early, or to replay them again. I guess that's less relevant for 4+ mana rocks, but Citadel being a mana rock is a streeeeeeetch. Also, I believe that one crucial thing for commander seperating dynamo vs hedron archive is that dynamo goes infinite with iscochron reversal on it's own, which is HUUUGE and a reason to run thran dynamo by itself.
Not everyone is a sweaty combo player lol
@@Steven-rb7ph not every player who acknowledges the existence of a combo is "sweaty."
Coveted jewel is one of my favorites, particularly for thantis the warweaver or goad based decks! Effects like these actively speed up the game (like monarchy, the curse cycle)
Do you have a Coveted Jewel in a Thantis deck? I'd been considering doing so, but I was already running monarchy and initiative cards. Hard to fit it in. Also run a decent amount of artifact hate like Bane of Progress and Titania's Song.
Sarevok's tome is amazing. You're undervaluing the initiative. It's easy enough to hold onto and the benefit it gives you each turn on top of the mana rock makes the card phenominal.
I think Tomer's right though, because I think a lot of people are sleeping on it because they don't want to add Initiative to their commander games.
Csst the card turn3-4 as normal. Go through the dungeon in 2-5 turns. The soonest you could use it would be turn 6, because it needs 3 mana. That's being generous and if you drew into it the first 4 turns or had it opening hand. The initiative is being rated fairly, the card just isn't fast enough and something like bolas citadel can be played faster and be used multiple times a turn, maybe until you run out of cards if your deck is built right
Surprised Crim isn't higher on Sarevok's Tome - trolling the whole table with the initiative mechanic seems right up his alley.
Loving the longer podcasts!
I actually played against a guy who played a Coveted Jewel the other day, and I was like “oh, this will be interesting” but then he sacrificed it almost immediately to a sac outlet :(
Best way to play it.
Unless you want group hug, you don't want someone stealing it from you
I hate to break it to you but I'm not really going to let you keep the Wishclaw Talisman either.
Yeah, kinda sucks that any fun effect like that, the gut instinct of most players is to try and cheat the system instead of have fun. I personally don't understand that "this is a game, I'm not here to have fun I'm here to win" mindset.
Just don't play cards like that if you don't want to engage their premise in good faith. Play with the spirit of the game, not just the letter of the rules text.
Hedron Archive is good in battle cruiser metas where the games are grinding and the two cards can help you dig. Nowadays it feels like most decks are able to curve out without issue, meaning the ability to dig sac the rock to dig just isn’t as useful as it used to be.
6:56 Phil’s take here is so true, I don’t know how anyone can disagree.
Hedron archive number one also received my play from you guys this week looks even better in person
Glad you like it!
@@MTGGoldfishCommander Seriously the playmats look SICK! The colors are so vibrant, it's easily my favorite of the 3 I own
Also got mine this week, and I agree the colours are incredible! Love the foil signatures too, came out way better than I was expecting :)
I've never had any other mana rock take me from an empty board, ready to die, and take me straight to the win. I'm sold on the citadel. (though to be fair, I've never untapped with Great Henge. It always gets blown up.)
I love Phil but can you also put a static text card on the end with any comments from Richard? He had some very hot takes on card draw and I miss his no nonsense attitude.
I like the idea but I'm assuming if Richard doesnt have time to be on this episode then he definitely doesnt have time to sit down and write out his thoughts on all of these cards.
@@SmashCentralOfficial I'm talking like three bullet points calling Seth out on bad takes and done.
@@apjapki LOL that's fair
Tomer and Seth are going to war with the audience and I'm here for it.
A few seconds silence at around 6:56 mark, just a heads up
My fault sorry
The first deck I put together runs 33 creatures, 33 lands, & 33 non-creature non-lands in the 99. It's a 3 color Marath deck with lots of mana rocks. My greatest land count is for my colorless Ulamog with 40 lands & and incredible amount of mana rocks.
Ultimately, I believe if the mana rock costs less than your commander, then it's okay to run it in your deck.
*Clash On* !
That's what I subscribe to as well. Generally speaking I want to choose ramp that ramps me into something (usually the commander). In Ulamog I'm totally fine running 4+MV rocks like Hedron Archive because they're ramping me towards the main game plan of getting the commander on to the battlefield.
The audio cut out at 6:56 - 7:06. Judging by the bg dropping out, I'm assuming there was some kind of production issue?
Glad to see I wasn’t the only one!
Did anyone else lose audio for a bit from 6:56 to 7:02?
That was an editing hiccup that I didn't catch, sorry about that!
@@MTGGoldfishCommander in my headspace Phil was cussing out Hedron Archive
Hedron active is literally 2 mind stones glued together. It cost double a mind stone draws double the cards and its activated ability double.
Shoutout to Tomer for editing in real time the cards as they're being mentioned!
Thank you very much for taking up the community's suggestion, it makes the podcast so much easier to follow :)
I'm with Tomer on the Sceptre being good for some decks. I think I might put this in a Feather deck, where getting mana rocks to make lots of coloured mana can sometimes be challenging.
My favorite thing with Phil in these podcasts is the slow sunset in the BG, and scrubbing through the thumbnail timeline
Timeless Lotus is great for me because it's Legendary, and one of my favorite decks is Sisay Legendary tribal; so being able to fetch it up with Sisay is a huge plus.
Prismatic Geoscope is so much more playable after New Capenna, now that the full cycle of triomes is complete. Fetches + triomes = two lands to get full value from Geoscope.
By this weird logic I believe that Omniscience just might be the best mana "rock".
Nah, can’t be a rock it’s not an artifact. Probably the same reason they didn’t put Fires of Invention on the list.
@@totalcoward I know. Which is why it was in quotes. But I would argue their logic on Citadel as well, but just a light jab at their logic.
I was thinking about enchantments too. Black Market and Revel in Riches feel like they would be interesting in this discussion as well.
@@totalcoward Fires of Inventions is by far the best card in my Zirilan of the Claw deck. It's like extremely powerful there.
@@totalcoward if Citadel is a rock, so is Omniscience, as is Jolene and Prosper. Oh, also the new cycle that let's you pay 2 life for 1 individual color pip. As is K'rrik and fuck it so is Treasonous Ogre. Also, Dockside is a mana rock.
Audio cuts out for about 10 seconds at 6:57
I can totally feel Seth about the land thing. I think their are decks, that don't need as many lands, but those are like super low to the ground. I've had it to often aswell to be stuck on lands when borrowing a deck. I usually start with 37 lands.
Timeless Lotus is amazing in my Sisay, Weatherlight Captain deck for two reasons
1. I don't have an expensive mana base to guarantee max domain
2. You tutor it with Sisay just before your turn, so it immediately replaces itself with instant tutor value
Also counterpoint: I think even outside of a dedicated dungeon deck Sarevok's Tome is at least a B both because it's not that complicated and also I think there are multiple initiative cards that are worth playing.
Tomer!!!! I love you!!!! You finally changed the janky intro. It feels so good to not be confused after the opening sequence.
My problem with most of these in general is that
A. Ramp is best done early and cheap, a 4+ mana rock is too slow, I need to be playing big things by then.
B. Artifacts get blown up too easily. I’m hesitant to even play Signets since SO many cards these days seem to have “blow up an artifact” tacked on to them in the pickup games I play at my LGS.
The Great Henge is a symbol of everything wrong with green design
THIS.
Stuff like that has made me legitimately enjoy green less and less over the years. What fun is a card that does everything you'd ever want? Just bad design overall.
@@BW-CZ The stuff that makes me worry is simplifying old challenges. Casting stuff from opponents decks almost always let's you spend mana as if it were any colour now. Clones almost always let you ignore the legend rule. It's sad because it simplifies the complexity of the game.
I am disappointed Tomer didn't put Archive at an F for the memes
Tomer is correct about Sceptre of Eternal Glory. That thing is great in mono-color, and the "worry" about not having basic lands is...not a worry at all in mono-color and I'm confused as to why it is.
I picked up coveted jewel a few months back because you guys mentioned it. It's an absolute blast to play with! Super strong too, as soon as there's any synergy going on. Where I have it is in a pillow fort-style deck with high mana haymakers and evasive creatures so I can always take it back and give it away politically. The way it plays, it helps me spiral out of control as it gives both significantly extra mana and a lot of extra cards.
It's definitely not for every deck, but since there's so much it works with I'd argue for A tier, with S tier fun!
The card draw from Hedron Archive could be anything! It could even be actual card draw!
I’m curious on what the gangs opinion on Stonespeaker crystal is, it’s like Hedron archive, but you’re trading the two cards for one card and exiling graveyards when you sac it instead
stonespeaker crystal replaced hedron in the deck I had that did run it, Osgir.
I think the reason Primal Amulet doesn't see a bunch of play in Spellslinger is that most spellslinger decks wanna cast cantrips and care more about quantity of spells rather than the quality. Bigger spellslinger lists might want to play it.
Hey y’all 6:56-7:04 has no volume of background graphic love the episode but figure editor would wanna know
I will never understand the mindset of "There is one or two cards that are slightly better than this one, so *this* card is *BAD*!"
Yeah but it's mtg internet content so we have to pretend everyone cares about optimisation. I mean, they don't, but....content.
Thran Dynamo is probably the most underrated mana rock in commander: 4 mana to basically be able to afford every card in your hand for the rest of the game.
While watching this, I was a bit conflicted on the idea of Bolas' Citadel being a "mana rock" but after thinking about it more, I've determined that anything which is not a land and adds extra mana to your Mana Reserve can be considered a "mana rock" for all intents and purposes, so I think we should decide as a community if this is a take that we can adapt to all of Magic (MTG).
If you'd like clarification of what I mean when I say "mana reserve", click 'Read more'
"Mana Reserve" refers to the total amount of mana you could generate (of any color, including colorless) from w/e your current board position is. If you have a lone Mountain (untapped), your Mana Reserve is 1 (meaning that there is the potential to add 1 mana to your mana pool). If you have a Mountain and tap it for a Sol Ring, your Mana Reserve is 2 until your Mountain untaps, at which point your Mana Reserve will increase to 3. If you are "tapped out", this should mean your Mana Reserve is 0 or empty.
Seth is right on Hedron. Because the best three words in magic are "Draw, A, Card"
I think it's actually draw seven cards
I mean it maybe a good card if your budget is funded entirely from raiding your little brothers piggy bank but honestly even at casual power level hedron archive is a pretty crappy card.
Also the rest of the cast is acting like mana rocks just stick around forever and no one tries to board wipe, bane of progression, vandal blast, etc.
I'm pretty sure the best 3 words are "counter target spell"
I can't begin to imagine the amount of games the have decided because someone drew a single card to end things or save themselves.
The issue with primal amulet and spellslinger in my opinion is that spellslinger likes to play a lot of cantrips and the mana reduction doesn't work on 1 mana spells or for spells like expressive iteration
Hedron Archive is a good card, Tomer.
@56:26 Teferi Chain Veil slapped the table with Chromatic Orrery just saying :P I fully recognize that was a cEDH tournament and does not provide a good amount precedent for the entirety of EDH.
As for Amulet vs Goggles, I usually prefer the Goggles for my Izzet builds, which are Veyran/Vadrik/Magnus the Red (I use them interchangeably as they share a good portion of their core pieces). Goggles come in and is ready to use. Amulet sits there a bit. Besides, while Crim is partially right that blue mana is important in these decks, some of the newer red spells like Jeska's Will, Finale of Promise, Apex of Power, Brass's Bounty, Chandra's Ignition, Mizzix's Mastery(Overloaded), Big Score, Invoke Calamity, Past in Flames(Flaskback Cost), Magma Opus are game ending when copied.
I love that we start with the hot takes!
Was a bit afraid hedron archive was lumped in somewhere.
Making my case Sarevok's Tome. The turn it comes down it taps for 2 and fetches a basic, if you have not played a land for turn it in effect creates 3 mana for 4 (which is a Thran). On the next turn, if you kept the initiative it fixes your draw with Scry 2. Allowing you to find another land or a cast-able spell. If you have lost initiative, it will still nets you two mana if you include the basic land. In the late game after you have completed a dungeon, this works as a repeatable card draw/cascade effect at instant speed. Notably, it exiles cards until you hit a nonland but does nothing with the exiled lands (they aren't shuffled back in) so at the point where you don't need more mana, Sarevok's Tome thins your deck of lands.
29:45 Primal Amulet is not a staple because it has a high cost versus return. The cost reduction is just okay, cards like Goblin Electrodude, Jace's Sanctum and Baral do that better (admittedly all Blue spells, Primal Amulet works in mono-Black Spellslinger and the like!). Getting a Primal Amulet to flip costs at *least* eight Mana unless you have some free Spells - and it's likely you don't just have four CMC 1-2 Instants and Sorceries at the ready. It's a fairly chunky investment and then you need another four I/S's. It's also a very large target for either a KGrip or Ghost Quarter, whereas "just" a cost-reducer is more likely to stick around: Phil immediately pointed out just why spell copies are dangerous by naming Time Warp.
It's a fun card, but playing with it is very different from reading it. I'm the only person in our playgroup to flip one, and that's mostly because I'm the one who plays all the Naturalizes to kill Primal Amulets, lmao.
Tomer is right on Scepter of Eternal Glory being a B-Tier. You obviously don't want to play it in a three or more color deck but in a 1 or 2 color deck, you can get a lot of value out of it.
its also really easy to turn on with the many abilities and spells that fetch you one or more basic lands
the one issue is a mono color deck normally doesn't specifically need 3 more colored pips
Seth is right, Hedron Archive is a good card.
Its a fine card, i dont see myself playing it in anything other than a slightly upgraded precon, i actually belive crim is right 😁
Id say you put it in a precon to first upgrade it a bit and then take it out again one you keep on upgrading later, or if your on a strict budget or if it has synergy like the planeswalker daretti but its not an a for sure
Tomer and seth both are a bit over the top in both directions
Biggest takeaway this week is that the "Who likes card draw more, Seth or Tomer?" debate is finally settled. Seth is victorious
First time listener to this group and listening to them I don't even feel like we're playing the same game, the thought process behind some of the things they say sound completely crazy.
Is jumping from 4 mana to potential 8 on next turn vs from 4 potential 7, really that different when the other can in a pinch draw 2 cards?
There's also a "value over multiple turns" factor that you are not accounting for. If your Hedron Archive sits out for lets say 4 turns, you actually got 4 less mana than you would have gotten. And lets say your deck is built poorly or you get unlucky and somehow you run out of gas and have to crack the Archive. That effectively costs 4 mana to do so, since you have to give up 2 mana from tapping the archive in addition to pumping in 2 more mana, and now you're also down 2 mana for the rest of the game since you don't have your archive anymore.
And it's especially bad if it gets blown up by a board wipe because then you got no benefit in exchange for having less mana. Commander's Sphere is a superior card to Archive in pretty much every way.
And if you don't agree that it costs 4 mana to crack an Archive, think of it this way. If you have an Archive and 4 lands in play, you have 8 mana to spend, right? But if you crack Archive, how much mana do you have left to spend? That's right, 4 mana left that turn.
@@Tvboy777 Sure, sure. But I doubt that you spend all of your mana on each turns in every game. And sure I too would play commander sphere over many rocks, but the entire video was about comparing 4+ mana rocks so I think that is kind of cheap, like "Did you know that sol ring is in fact better than most mana rocks?" . My point mostly is that I don't think thran dynamo or headron archive are overly good or overly bad. I just think that the 1 mana is such a small difference for the opportunity cost of being able to draw cards if you are in trouble. Basically I'd say Thran Dynamo is better, but I don't agree with Tomer's logic that Headron is unplayable.
Hedron Archive is a fine card. If you play in a group where you can get away with playing 4 mana rocks then I'd definitely play it. I'd say Dynamo is better, but not by a wide margin and they're very comparable. The flexibility is nice and the mana production is still on curve.
4 mana ramp (hell, 3 mana too) in general is just something the internet loves to dump on.
@@kickinwang1817 Yea, I'd agree with that.
I agree with you Tomer in running many basic lands. My land count in most two color decks is 10 color fixing lands, 10-16 basics or 5-8 of each basic, 2 land destruction to hate out unfair lands, 1-2 graveyard hate lands, and the rest are usually utility lands be they for drawing cards, removal, synergy, or color fixing
The grossest thing I saw with Coveted Jewel was a 3rd turn casting off of free mana from Belbe, Corrupted Observer
Favorite "mana rock" MV 4+: Golden Guardian from Rivals of Ixalan, which transforms into Gold-Forge Garrison. Ghalta decks especially love a 4/4 every turn without spending more cards in hand.
Most of you do not run enough basics. Y'all gotta have enough so that if you get blood mooned, back to basicsed, and have all your rocks and dorks blown up that you can still make enough colored mana to fulfill your colored pips.
Great discussion! To me the discussion about 4+ mana rocks is a little more interesting than the 3mana ones since they are a bit more niche.
Just a little suggestion but you could include the price when you display the cards for TH-cam. I swear you used to do it so if it's too much work then no worries. I realize you folks probably bank episodes so the price might change in that time.
Tomer likes Firemind Vessel because he is a Niv-Mizzet stan.
Can't deny it
HEDRON ARCHIVE LET'S GOOO
Hedron archive is one of my favorite mana-rocks!
There are decks that need the card draw of Archive, but also need the ramp from it too. I play it in Sheoldred for both modes. Early game, it ramps me and let's me push explosive plays. Late game, it turns into a decent card draw spell. It's not necessarily great at either of them, but it's better than the do nothing that Tomer thinks it is.
I actually love Phil's take on Primal amulet. I'll try it in my next simic+ decks
Me halfway through the video. "Why is Seth talking about Hedron Archive for the second time this podcast?"
Just wait until the third time...
At 6:56 the sound cuts out. Does not return until 7:05.
Tomer taking damage from seth's opening speech about hedron archive is top tier content
Ok so for Headron Archive for the most part I agree with Seth The downside it has compared to commandersphere is that you have to pay manna and sacrifice it to draw the cards. If it was tap it sacrifice it draw two cards that'd be a little bit better. Because the nice thing about commander's fear is when somebody wraths all artifacts on the board you can sacrifice it and draw a card in response so you're at least not down a card but I do like the ability to just have extra card drive I need it.
I don't think it was noted, unless I skimmed over it, but prismatic geoscope vs timeless lotus: geoscope lets you add mana "in any combination of colors", so it will let you cast spells with double the same pip, or triple the same, etc, whereas the lotus doesn't. You can also turn it on earlier with things like dryad of the illisian grove, or the world tree, or anything else that makes lands into all land types on one or more lands. And it's not legendary so you can make copies of it and they all work well, card's way better than timeless lotus.
How is Bolas Citadel a Mana Rock? That means that Phyrexian Mana spells and Saga Untap spells are Mana rocks too? Cuz they're free?
I agree with Seth. This is why I like the Guild Locket Cycle. Once I have enough mana, I don't need the ramp anymore. It's the same logic. I think Tomer and Phil wrong. I agree that Hedron Archive is about a B at best, and I think I would rate it like Crim.
Every time someone defends hedron archive, the amount of basics you should play goes up.
14:00 I would agree with Seth here, but the Hidden Cave Lands and Creature Lands cycles exist.
Caged Sun is good for 5 color/one color decks. *
Say a white deck that has whatever color creature that's also a white creature.
Same goes double for a deck with whatever color creature and also a blue creature. Blue having almost no mana ramp in general, Caged Sun is a major bonus.
*All creatures share a common color plus whatever other color they have.
Not an artifact, but no less non-creaturey-dorky than artifacts. And can only be played in decks with a red(-plus) identity, but that's no different than a Boros/Izzet/Rakdos/Gruul Locket (and can actually be played in more decks than those can)...but my vote goes to...Mana Echoes. It's an absolute beast in tokens decks and tribal decks (and even better in tribal tokens decks!). The amount of mana that pours out from it just while you're doing what you're already doing is insane! Best card in my Kykar deck for sure (and that runs literally no creatures in the 99!).
Mind Stone is excellent while hedron Archive is very mid because you can't determine "rate" by just doubling all the numbers.
The difference between rampant growth and explosive vegetation is huge, despite it being double the mana cost for double the lands.
2 mana ramp goes into virtually every single deck, while not every deck needs 4 mana ramp, and the decks that do need 4 mana ramp usually aren't running more than like 3-4 of them. Not to mention that if you are green, you are now looking at all the 4+ green ramp like oracle of mul daya, Skyshroud claim, and so on.
In my nongreen decks, I run the oncolor signets and talismans and sol ring (then nonbudget decks run mana crypt and grim monolith and friends)..... but mind stone still sometimes makes the cut just because I need enough quantity of 2 drop rocks.
My opinion on Hedron Archive is that its a solid card that doesnt really have too many homes. Yes, it's 8 mana to get the cards, but you hopefully already produced that much or more mana by the time you crack it. I feel like the arguments against it misrepresent the order of actions you take before cracking the archive. you usually dont do that until much later in the game. Also, thran dynamo is better on turns 3 and 4 when you would optimally play it, but that ramp stops mattering the later into the game you get as you hit land drops and cast other spells, where having the archive to get 2 cards becomes much better, again you already got the mana back from it
Saervok's tome seems great in an etb/blink deck to reset the rock and get another venture trigger. Even without being initiative focused this seems pretty cool!
Coveted Jewel is another card that also gets help from the Sheoldred and Quezas of the world. Where you drawing cards is a nice bonus, but you need to get your opponents drawing cards.
Toma's rant on initiative was hilarious.
Some advice for anyone listening. Run stuff like hedron archive and than dynamo only if you run 6+ of 2 cmc mana rocks like the diamonds, mind stone colorless rocks, and the talismans if they are in your color. It's easier to pump them out on turn 2(if you run 1 mana dorks) or turn 3 if your just playing rocks and lands.
Izzet spellslinger is gonna be primarily blue? What’s the wincon?
Rules question on Coveted Jewel:
OP moves to Attack Phase and attacks me with 1 creature and I have 1 blocker. If, during the Attack Phase, I Bolt his attacker, does OP then essentially "automatically" gain control of the Jewel?
Since Coveted Jewel specifically says the creature needs to "attack and not be blocked" if you Bolt it during the attack phase (before blocks are declared) they won't gain control of it, because it didn't pass through the "was I blocked?" step. If you wait until after blockers and something goes unblocked and then you Bolt it the opponent will still gain control of it though.
Hedron archive has a deckbuilding restriction: It's great if you have 8~ colorless 2 mana rocks AND you need to have either a 6/7 mana commander or plenty of such spells to cast in the deck.
The reason Seth feels like he needs so many lands is pretty apparent from the card draw episode, he favors high cmc high impact card draw spells over the cheaper card draw spells. 30 lands is more than enough if your deck is packed with 1 and 2 mana card filtering and card advantage spells.
Bolas's Citadel is very good, but it is 100% *NOT* a mana rock and including it was wrong.