Is Ser Arthur Dayne still alive?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 มิ.ย. 2024
- Is Ser Arthur Dayne still alive in the "A Song of Ice and Fire" (Game of Thrones) books? Is Qhorin Halfhand actually Ser Arthur Dayne?
#asoiaf #gameofthrones #thewindsofwinter
0:00 Background
1:27 Description
2:30 Fighting Skills
3:44 Core Values
4:40 Allusions
5:52 Disguise
7:15 The Gamble
8:59 The Flaw
9:33 Hypothesis - บันเทิง
I think that Ser Arthur Dayne is dead, the only explanation otherwise would be that Lord Eddard built a cairn for Dayne and let him try to slip all the way from Dorne to the Wall unnoticed to fake his death and that seems like a stretch. Qhorin Halfhand I think was the image of a perfect night's watchman: capable, brave, selfless, true to the last, which would fit all the things we've heard about Ser Arthur, who was painted as the perfect knight. I think that's why these comparisons are made, because there are so few characters that are painted in such a flawless light.
hear, hear!
Who names their heir affectionately after The killer of the previous heir?
Dayne didn't die at tower of joy.
All we know of what happened at the tower is mainly from fever dream
Grrm has told us not to trust fever dreams
I don't believe it was anything like what we've been lead to think.
The dune heir named after Ned
Honourable Ned not being honourable about the bones of his northmen.....
None of it adds up.
@@stupidhandles to answer the starting question:
1. (I don’t think this is the case, but) if the Dayne sisters hated their brother. Probably for standing by while Aerys assaulted/raped Ashara and other women. (Assaulting/raping I do think happened, that’s why we have Daenerys.) Arthur, for all we know, treated his sisters like the Mountain treated his.
2. Ned is Ned’s kid, by Ashara’s sister. (Probably true) This makes Ayra meeting Jaqen (Jon’s twin) mirror Ayra meeting her actual half brother, Ned.
3. Lyanna forced them to. (As hundred percent as a theory can get.) “Promise me, Ned” is actually Lyanna demanding Ned to name Ned Dayne, his son, Ned after him.
4. (As above) Because Ned is keeping house Dayne’s secrets. Rhaenys is Arthur’s daughter, Daenerys is Ashara’s.
5. (As above) Ned hid the children, including Ned Dayne (Safer with the Daynes and gives them an heir at Starfall), Rhaenys (Ned should have turned her over to Robert), and Daenerys/( ?and Val?). Beric was given an engagement to Ashara’s sister, since he led Ned’s group to the tower and also knew about what happened there. He was supposed to raise Ned’s real bastard and eventually tell him the truth about his father.
@@mistermaestersirthomas9164 most of your points are made moot by the fact Ned Dayne is yeas too young to be Ned's bastard, he's about sansas age.
And yeah, the great sword of the morning (an Honour not given by birthright, but by valour ) is worse than the mountain!
@@stupidhandles A house legendary for their honor above all. Even more than those snotty Arryn's who claim to be "As High as Honor" certainly more than Tullys who place honor up there with (but still lower than) Family and Duty. Fam Duty honor.
Ned, ostensibly the second most powerful person in Westeros at that moment, took the time to return their one irreplacable heirloom. There's more to it than that, but I think Ned left Dorne a forever friend of House Dayne. Perhaps Daynes know something the Starks have forgotten in their cold rocky homeland. PErhaps they're old Kin. The First Men and the First First Men.
Regardless, Arthur died.
But Ned does say "afterward, THEY helped me pull down the tower" - who is THEY?? Not his companions, they all dead (but for the frog eater). Not his sister. Not the three white knights, they lay dead as well. Not baby Jon, he was like 20 minutes old. MY daughter could barely walk at 20 DAYS old! And by barely, i mean not at all. She walked a little late, probably 12-13 months. I digress.
Well "Is he still alive" and "Was he Quorin Halfhand" don't exactly go together xD
lol i hear ya, unfortunately. but for the sake of TH-cam, it's best to go with the more searchable or clickable title
in the past i was using a generic "TBD's SECRET IDENTITY explained" - but got tired of that. I wanted to do "Is Qhorin Ser Arthur Dayne" but it looks weird having two names side by side without another word between them. so in my masterfile this section is actually (no pun intended) titled "Is Qhorin actually Ser Arthur Dayne," but while working on it a couple days ago, I decided to just go with "Is Ser Arthur Dayne alive?" since it is a clearer sentence (although technically irrelevant in the current timeline as you pointed out =))
another example of funny titles is that "how dany give birth to dragons" was a more searched phrase than "how did dany hatch the dragons" back when i made a video on it, despite the more searched phrase being an inaccurate description lol
I'm a firm believer that Quorin Halfhand is actually Oswell Whent, Tormund Giantsbane is actually Gerold Hightower, and that Mance Rayder is actually Arthur Dayne with there actually being a surprising amount of evidence to support all of this which I am not going to get into because the channel OrderOfTheGreenHand already made a lot of videos on it and I'd just be stealing their work. Highly recommend anyone check it out if they think I am crazy for my belief.
Another interesting connection could be how in the book Ghost bites Quorin from behind giving Jon a chance to strike for the victory, similar to how Howland Reed strikes Arthur Dayne from behind for Ned in the show.
This theory, if true, would further help tie into the idea of Jon Snow being Azor Ahai. One of the signs was the bleeding star. The Dayne sigil is the sword and a falling star. Howland Reed might've helped Ned Stark cut off half of Arthur's right hand, which could have gotten blood on Dawn's white blade making it fit the "bleeding star" sign. One of the other signs is the sacrifice, and if Arthur Dayne did become Qhorin Halfhand, then his sacrifice at Jon's sword would fit that sign too. He was friends with Rhaegar and Rhaegar believed in the Azor Ahai prophecy so much so that he might've shared his belief with Arthur Dayne, and Dayne might've became a believer in it too. However, that might be a stretch, but then again seems feasible. That's the downside of a 50/50 for you.
i didnt mention it in this video, but the opening line to the chapter in which Jon, Qhorin, and crew are looking up at Ygritte's fire compares the fire to a "fallen star" =))
Howland Reed stopped the fight at the tower of joy by appealing to Arthur and Ned to stop. Howland had influence because he is the one that Ashara fell in love with at the grand tourney, so Arthur listened to him.
Arthur is dead. He welcomed it as punishment for breaking his vow.
Ashara is married to Howland and the mother of Meera and Jojen.
Ned allowed Ashara to leave and start up a new life with Howland. Ned protected the Daynes from Robert and that’s why they love him so much. He saved their house.
What do you mean? What did Robert have against Ashara?
@@AdaManny555 Robert would've destroyed the Daynes for supporting the Targaryens, hiding Lyanna, blamed them for Lyanna dying, etc.
I think Mance is Dayne. That glorious 2 handed great sword fight he has with Jon while glamored as the Lord of Bones.
I do think The Kingsguard Knight's from the ToJ did end up at the wall or North of it.
Mance, Tormund and Qhorin
Idk I think it's more likely that mance is also just a good fighter considering he was raised in the nights watch and is king beyond the wall
@@kyanchambers260 2 handed Greatswords are only used by Armored Knights (in Plate)
Not found at the wall, or North of it.
He seems to revel in holding it, like it is something he loves and misses.
That would be the reaction of someone who used to weild Dawn.
Yes, yes exactly this what I've been saying. The Jon - rattleshirt fight is significant. Jon has to train with 3 partners to challenge him, yet mance bests him easily. Plus the GT sword suggests high birth, advanced training etc. You don't get men commoners being good enough as sword to advance to get sword and mastering it. Training is noble, commoners have to work.
Mance was already in the Wall as a baby. There's another theory that Qhorin is another member of the Kingsguard. I think it was the White Bull?
@@liliiris4424 Tormund is the White Bull. Qhorin is Whent
The ruby necklace could also be connected to the red witch using rubies (i think?) to hide someones identity? Could be a subtle hint to him being someone else and hiding who he really is.
i hear ya. i used to leverage that line of thinking in terms of the Mance = Rhaegary Theory, but in Melisandre's one rolling third-person limited chapter, it comes across as Mance Rayder experiencing glamor magic for the first time
Hes the guy in the corner eating pop corn watching everyone go nuts🍿😎
Well the ruby necklace reminds me of the magical glamor of Melisandres necklace, being a symbolic for a transformed man or a man that has become someone else.
Yes he could have sent Jon to Mormont earlier, but he knew how he wanted to use his people, to use save the Nights Watch
And who else could be the most worthy person to kill Ser Arthur, if not the boy he sacrified everything for
That would be such a game changer! And there are so many people who disappeared and are mysteriously supposed "not dead". I can imagine our young knights in the Tower of Joy deciding the reign of Aegon is over and plotting a way out. And an incident (the death of Lyanna? Of Raeghar striken by grief?) Changed everything and made them take urgent decisions, while events in King's Landing went wild. It could look like a war between the old and the young ones. After all, there is so much we don't know about the Tower of Joy.
(Anyway, thanks for your video, this was such an original and clever take that I started dreaming on my own.)
Interesting thoughts 👍 🔥🔥🔥
Not related to the theory, but I always love your videos. You’re one of the main reasons I started reading the books, and I’m halfway through Dance right now. Keep it up man. You’re awesome.
oh nice!! are you enjoying the extra characters and extra/different subplots? (Danys chapters bore me in Dance, but Tyrions journey is different, so thats fun. plus Victarion, Griff, Quentyn, etc =)) enjoy!
Order of the Greenhand makes a great case for this. Your video makes a lot of points that they didn't so kudos to you for presenting new info on an old but unpopular theory.
I could see this being true. Possible Halfhand wanted to keep Jon close bcuz he knew that north of the wall they were always in danger (whites, white walkers) and felt the best way to protect him was to keep him close.
As far as the name, the old timers might have known who he was but respected his new name. It’s not like everyone talked about Maester Aemon being a Targaryen unless he brought it up.
I really enjoy these videos, especially when they don't completely answer the question
Great video as always Kevin. But I still think that the kings guard at the tower are all alive except Whent. Tormund is Hightower and Mance is Dayne. The man who asked Snow how sharp his sword was is the man who liked to sharpen his own sword, Whent.
Are there any text references comparing Qhorin to Northmen? Differences or similarities?
I ask because I think Qhorin was part of the goon squad that rolled with Ned to the Tower. He lost half his hand to Dayne, witnessed the fight’s end, and chose to take the black to preserve the new realm’s peace. Sounds like a classic Cassel move. That would explain his fighting prowess, his affinity for Jon, his eyes, and the references to dawn.
whoa. never thought of it that way. that would be honorable if it were the case. but to play devils advocate, how come Howland Reed didnt do the same? (because he is in the swamps and isnt at risk of revealing Ned's secret?)
@@bridge4 that could be exactly why Howland didn’t do the same. No one is taking a holiday to the Neck, the Tower’s truths are pretty safe there.
We don't konw what happend at the tower of joy. Ned had a fever dream. He was sick and confused. Until we see it it from Bran I would not bet that it got down like in the dream.
I also wonder how two people destroy a tower with only horeses and swords? Seems impossible
the destroyed a tower with
haha the tearing down the tower part is pretty odd. im with ya
Grrm also said not to trust fever dream.
I don't believe the tower of joy went anything like what we've been lead to believe.
If Ned killed Arthur, why would the Daynes name an heir affectionately after Ned?
Why did honourable Ned dishonour the bones of his northmen?
Good work, Sir.
History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme. I like how the theory is finishing his story the way it was told he was supposedly killed, defending Jon snow.
This is my favorite theory in the entire fandom, great video my dude!
Great job on breaking down this theory. Legends indeed.
thanks, Keith! and im with ya =))
DOPE VIDEO! LOVE IT!
thanks, B!
I think so. The sword of the morning probably lost half his hand to Reed during the fight. After getting to the Wall no one would recognize him for that reason. Also, he would have been without his sword vs two men and been told to surrender. Even more he could have waited with Reed (captured) and after retrieving John Snow. Knowing his true parentage, the final choice was to save the Heir, imo.
All 3 kingsguard are still alive. Arthur Dayne is Mance Ryder, Oswell Whent is Qhorin Halfhand and Gerold Hightower is Tormund Giantsbane.
It is known
"The sigil of House Hightower is a stone white watchtower, with a fire on the top." Is Tormund a redhead in the books ("Fire on the Top?")?
Is there an explanation of this theory somewhere so I can check it out?
Not sure if Sam could beat or swat a fly easily lol
lol. to be fair (at least in the show version), as Sam told Gilly "how many people can say they've killed a White Walker AND a Thenn? I might be the only one" LOL
Lol
That’s a bit too big of a stretch for me. Good theory tho. I think this winter I’ll be about ready for a reread it’s been quite a while and things are beginning to get fuzzy.
This makes sense😍
did you ever make that book tier list i heard u mention
I like to think of it as they are two sides of the same coin, like it seems that the kings guard and nights watch are completely different but in fact are very closely related as the every child wants to be a member of the kings guard but no one wants to be a member of the nights watch and would rather choose castration as tyion said but in reality they protect, father no children and are bound until death and the kings guard are cosidered as brothers as well as the nights watch and I think ser arthur and qhorin represent this as they give their life for their order and vows, are the best in the biz, incorruptable and both give their life for jon snow (albiet for different reasons).
i just pinned someone elses comment sayign somethign similar. so i feel rude taking that away lol. otherwise, i'd have pinned yours as well. i'm totally with ya on this (although admittedly, i bought into Qhorin=Dayne for years and i still see it that way in my head, even though i no longer believe that was George R.R. Martin's intent lol)
I personally am a big fan of the theory that characters at/beyond the wall were at the TOJ. But I think if you allow for Dayne to have survived you have to account for Whent and Hightower too - it seems to me an oft-overlooked but huge clue that in Ned’s dream his men are all wraiths and the kings guard were alive…
I know it makes me half a kook, but I’m with the Green Hand on Dayne = Mance, Whent = Halfhand, Hightower = Tormund
Great video! Hi Kev, is there some relationship or correlation between those that have sword hand traumas? Davos, Qhorin, Jaime? Davos lost his fingers for theft, Jaime deprived the rapists of Brienne, could Qhorin have lost half his hand for taking Leanna to Rhaegar?
Theon saved Jeyne Poole =))
@@bridge4 Cat's hand was injured saving Bran from the assassin. Maybe there is a connection between all these somewhere. I'm only on book 2 but there are a LOT of references to characters feeling their old hand injuries or having to flex their hands due to old had injuries.
There is another interpretation, that it is 2 out of three; or for this: Dayne dead the other two sent to the wall. Reed saving him happened later when he passed out. Dayne dying would be a backstabbing by his own men or Ned slaying him like Reek(Rob) slayed the leader at Moat Cailin, hence Reek's comparison to Rob (traveling to Moat Cailin) and Jon (leading 63 survivors away and Jon being one of the babies born at the Tower of Joy).
The "Ruby necklace" line, I would guess, is either from Bram Stoker's Dracula or Carmilla; and a allusion clue at house Whent/?Lothor?(Cat's three bats ancestor house)
Bleeding Star probably for this means Dayne was already injured pre-Ned and co.
Qhorin is Whent and Mance is definitely Dayne. You didn’t mentioning how Qhorin checks his sword to see if it is sharp and also asks Jon if his sword is sharp. And in Ned’s Tower of Joy dream Whent is down on a knee Sharpening his sword. Also Whent’s family symbol is a bat, and Qhorin/Whent makes his last stand after coming out of the cave with Jon…not a coincidence. Also FYI a bat symbolizes “Rebirth”. Look it up.
The 7 of Aerys end as follows
Selmy - bends the knee
Lannister - kills he king
Dayne - die at tower of joy
Hightower - die at tower of joy
Went - die at tower of joy
Martell - is the prince that dies in Dany's vision
Darry - nobody talk about Jhonothor Darry.
Qhorin Halfhand is Jhonothor Darry and Rhaegar Targaryen is Mance Rayder
Interesting theory. I think they parallel each other but not the same person. I think both represent the mythical hero/knight, which is why they are both dead in ASOIAF. Can't have any non-gray characters at this point.
Arthur Dayne being the best becoming injured, training, and becoming even better makes less sense. Is there really better than the best, especially compared to Jaime's current story? More like, Halfhand was ok before, trained, and is now great.
I don't think little finger is dead either. Notice when he gave the blade to brandon stark after brandon had came down from the wall, there was a close up image of his face that he realised that brandon KNEW too much. I think he hired a faceless man to take his place. The close up reaction while he was with brandon tells a lot.
One more thing. Can someone explain why Jaqen H'ghar was jailed in kings landings when ned stark was about to be killed???
I've never understood how so many people believe this, along with the Mance is Rhaegar and Tormund is Whent theories. It's such a big stretch, and it doesn't add anything to the story. In fact, id say having less badass characters would subtract from the story
To be fair, GRRM is hinting at Rhaegar/Mance. Though I would say that is because the Nightwatch member at the Tournament was Mance, who wore Rhaegar's armor to give Lyanna blue roses. GRRM riffing on Robin Hood.
one benefit would be that Rhaegar has been obsessed with prophecy his entire life. so it'd be pretty neat if he and Dayne went north. then Rhaegar "ditched" his new vow seemingly. but low and behold, what he's been doing for the last years is unifying humans north of the wall to save them from the Doom. that'd be gnarly
Excellent analysis. It has been almost a decade since I read the books, but the premise itself is not at all far-fetched in terms of that the tower of joy was one big lie.
I’m a show only fan but I have extensively watched many videos on the Story of Ice & Fire so I am not certain if the book Ser Arthur Dayne fought with two swords like in the show but if Qorhyn had to learn how to fight with his left hand then that is one point off of your theory and Jaime doesn’t not value physical strength, he values swordsmanship prowess hence he didn’t care about Brianne’s monstrous strength even though she’s a woman (& that shocked The Hound) but praised her swordsmanship for a person her size instead.
One of the Clarins wasn't Aruther Daynes? Daynes bones were supposedly taken to Starfall
his sword Dawn was taken to Starfall
@@bridge4 Ned Dayne was taken to Starfall, Dawn was renamed Ice.
#yes
If anything, I would say the red rubies line isn’t a direct link to Rhaegar himself, but rather maybe hinting at the fact Quorin is now whom he seems. After all, we see rubies used as tools in the practice of illusions. Or even just be used as a metaphor that he’s not who he portrays to be.
This is symbolized in Jon too. Bus Wolf’s head pommel is studded with rubies, a hint at the lie that he’s Ned’s son. Which makes me wonder if the rubies on Rhaegar’s armor were to represent the fact that people thought he was some grand knight and would be some great hero, but in fact wasn’t Azor Ahai. 🤔
I prefer the theory which states mance is Arthur dane, tormund is gerold hightower, and Qhorin is Oswell whent
I'd say lots of the legendary knights in this story are still alive.
who do you think?
George’s new Tower of Joy art does look very similar to Qhorin!
Is Eddard Stark actually Jeor Mormont? They’re both men, they are both father figures to Jon, Ned mentions how he might have to go north and deal with Mance Rayder, and that’s exactly what Jeor does
Yes, Mance
Yes yes yes
At the start of the video I'm thinking: No way is the Halfhand -> Arthur Dayne
Then I consume all the information and ideas you present
And at the end I'm thinking: George! Arthur Dayne better be Qhorin Halfhand, Don't mess this up!!!
Awesome video Bridge! The research you put into these types of video's def shows
thanks, Mark! you may not have made it until the end though because i used to be one of the most hardcore believers in this theory. but at the end of this video, i explain why i no longer believe that "Qhorin=Dayne" is George R.R. Martins intent (nonetheless, in my head, he still is lol)
Whether hes Arthur Dayne or not makes no difference, hes dead either way.
Mance is Dayne
Love the theory, hope it's not true.
The world always feels a little smaller and less real when significant characters turn out to be the same character. It's a nice treat when you deduce that someone lurking in a crowd was significant... A world should be large enough to meet new people worth meeting.
Arthur Dayne = Mance Raider
Gerorld Higthtower = Tormund
Oswell Whent = Quorin Halfhand
A fellow Order of the Green Hand fan?
Dayne mance for sure. The rest I'm not sold.
I always kinda likes that
Tormund is tormund
Arthur Dayne is Mance Rayder. Arthur says at TOJ "we do not kneel" and Mance says "our knees do not bend easily." When Jon meets Mance, Mance is playing "The Dornishman's Wife" despite supposedly being born at the wall and living in the north his entire life. How could he possibly know that song? He also claims to know ALL the songs. But the biggest clue for me is the Jon vs Mance glamoured as Rattleshirt battle Mance displays the most excellent swordfighting depicted in any of the books so far and by a wide margain. Even Jon cant believe hes getting worked so bad. Jon is using Longclaw which is a hand and a half sword whereas Mance is using a two handed greatsword and yet Mance is still twice as fast as Jon and doesnt seem to tire. Even as the fight ended Mance mocked him and said something to the effect of "I didnt even break a sweat." He absolutely embarrassed Jon without even trying. If thats not Arthur Dayne then Mance is the most overpowered character in this series with no real credible explanation as to how he couldve become such a great fighter. I also think the show actually made an easter egg pointing towards Arthur being Mance. Arthur says to Ned at TOJ: "I wish you good fortune in the wars to come." Well Mance says the exact same thing to Jon and then Jon later says it to Gendry.
This actually makes more sense.
@@subodeibaghatur4300 I think so. Narratively speaking, its way cooler than the most badass knight in the realm meeting his end from a bunch of nobody's. Ned's party at TOJ may have had the number's advantage, but none of them were great warriors. Not even Ned was said to be overly great in combat. But they supposedly took out the 3 best swordsmen in the realm? No way.
@@williamhermann6635though if we take this as true, could we ask why Ned didn't recognize him at Winter fell during Robert's feast.. Or Robert, or Jaime.
@@subodeibaghatur4300 Who says Ned didnt recognize him? And obviously hes in some kind of disguise to where most wouldnt recognize him. I think Ned would have tho. Assuming the theory is correct, Ned would have to help Arthur escape to The Wall post-TOJ so he wouldve known who Mance is. I think this is why Ned wrote off Catelyn's concerns about Mance when she brought him up. But GRRM wouldn't spoil such a plot twist so early in his story. All the signs are there tho. Even if Mance isnt Arthur, hes obviously more than just some guy born near The Wall. Hes the best swordsman weve seen in the story so far and he was also the very first character introduced in the prologue of AGOT. Hes a much bigger character than people realize.
Oh he did? I mean that feast had a lot of folk who'd recognize, Robert Baratheon not being in the least. Starting rebellions and incursions and sneaking into Winterfell to 'see what this king looks like' doesn't sound consistent with someone hiding away at the Wall. Plus he'd already seen Robert before. Also Dolorous Edd consistently beats Jon at sword play so...
I see no reason why he’s dead. They didn’t need to continue fighting in the tower of joy. Ned just wanted his sister and rhaegar kingsguard had no reason to not let ned pass. Especially if he was in a relationship with ashara
There’s no way, not everyone needs to have a secret identity.
But he does, he is Oswell Whent. That is known.
As bad as this might sound. I hope he isn't. Hear me out.
Arthur was undoubtedly a good man. And this is shown in many different ways throughout ASOIAF. His character, from what has been heard was very kind and generous, he was also fair and just. But he also had a strong sense of honour that I believe Ned admired. Ned often had nightmares about the tower of joy, due to Lyanna, and possibly because he saw his hero die?
Arthur, and also Gerold and Oswell, are portrayed as the last true honorable kingsgaurd in the realm. Facing death head on rather than betray Rhaegar. This is meant to show that good people die due to the actions of the evil like Aerys was, when he went, mad. If he was alive I believe this message would be less effective
Don't let the gray eyes dissuade you! gray in asoif....often indicates uncertainty, ghosts, the dead etc. No one living really knows what happened at the tower of joy except Howland Reed and he lives in GREYWATER watch....maybe the gray eyes link back to Howland Reed....
Been awhile, how ya been?
The reason Tyrion can’t figure out who Septa Lemore is, his information comes from books and small folk, like servants, aren’t generally listed or named. It follows the “Bedchel test” theme of “the tanner’s wife” aka Septa Lemore not being named and in this case the servants, like a midwife, at the Tower. Part of Aegon’s crew was likely there with the Dayne sisters, Beric, if he wad alive, probably knew the story too.
i hear ya. his eyes arent necessarily grey anyway. thats just the way Jon saw them (but may have been affected by the environment/clothing/etc)
@@bridge4 The real reason they are grey is because he was a Kingsguard so he took “The White” and later he was a night watchman so he also took “The Black” and we all know if you mix white and black you get grey.
How would he know what Jon looks like? PLUS! Jon looks everything like his spiritual father (Ned), but NOTHING like his actual father (Rhaegar). When he said Jon looked like his dad, he meant Ned, the way we all thought Ned was Jon's dad.
oh yeh, sorry. i wasnt trying to say that he looked like Rhaegar (although in the context of this video, that makes sense). what i was getting at is simply that he knew Jon right away (from having known Eddard and also Rickard Stark)
It would also be wildly poetic that as Qhorin Halfhand, Arthur Dayne would sacrifice himself for Jon Snow, aka Aegon IV. One of the few men to know the secret, sacrificing himself for the survival of the 7 Kingdoms. Ultimately, finally being able to successfully defend the boy he once failed to do. & In honor of Ned Stark of course, who kept his promise in secret, & now Dayne|Halfhand could respectfully return the favor. - I see the holes, but it is indeed, GRRM-tier poetic structure!
Didn't we see the tower of joy through the three eyed ravens vision?
Because regardless of how he died, we saw him get turned into a large pez dispenser at the tower..
So unless the three eyed raven decided to create a lie of a vision, then we know he's already dead..
"Dawn and qhorin arrived together" isn't a metaphor or a hint either, Jon and stonesnake took the wildling scouts at night, giving a signal to qhorin and he literally met them at dawn..
Whilst there's a lot of lines that seem to click together.. it feels far fetched still, brilliant video still 👍
Sir Arthur Dayne, Imagine keeping a dying girl from her brother and thinking yourself a knight at all.
Arthur Dayne is alive 'coz I so want him to be alive. Isn't that how it works?
You're quite right, that is exactly how it works.
lol, technically yes. as my favorite author Brandon Sanderson says, "a story isn't finished when i finish the rough draft. or the final draft or when it hits the bookshelves. it is only finished when it comes to life inside someone's head. and every reader has the right to line-item veto power" (or something like that =))
Simple, Howland convinced Arthur the only way to protect the boy from Robert was to take him north as Ned's bastard child and for sir Arthur Dayne to join the nights watch so that just like their oaths say he could continue his watch til the end of his days, in the north with John close by, if ol georg says qhorin ISNT Arthur Dayne then he's a fool
I want to believe it because that would be fuckin awesome, but I feel like Thorne would have recognized him if no one else did. But I guess Thorne could have not gone to court, and never seen him before.
*Reads title*
"Go on"
Couldnt one of the cairns at the tower be for Lyanna's death? So Arthur could be alive. Also didnt Ned go to the Daynes house to return the sword and they did not outright despise him even naming a family member after him? I don't think Qhorin is Arthur but maybe Mance could be.
qhorin halfhand looks literaly exactly like an old version of ser arthur dayne if its not him then it must be his sibling.
It's Nance raider, not the half hand
Arthur Dayne is mance rayder. Go watch the order of the green hands videos.
I feel like if Arthur is still alive hes gotta be Mance Rayder if anyone. Qhorin does have similarities but itd be kinda a waste of the Arthur Dayne character to have him end up being Qhorin since he just dies
The Order of the Greenhand think Arthur Dayne is Mance Rayder, but they think everything is a conspiracy
The line "You're Jon Snow. You have your father's look" is proof Quorn is NOT Arthur Dayne. If he was then he would know Ned was not Jon's father. Jon's father was Rhaegar and since Jon looked like a Stark he couldn't look like his father. If Quorn was in fact Arthur he would've said something like "You're Jon Snow. You have the look of a Stark."
what people forget is that qhorin only became a legendary swordsman wheb he lost his right hand and had to learn using his left instead. Aswell as no he isnt Arthur dayne since he would be famous enough for people like alliser thorne recognizing him.
**Don's tinfoil hat
I think there is a possibility that Mance is AD's older brother - father of Alleria & Ned Dayne - brother to Ashara Dayne too. Suspiciously this elder knight & head of the Household of the Dayne family from the important period of Roberts Rebellion is missing from the record as is his wife. If his name turned out to have been Marrec then I'd say it's a dead cert.
Meaning: Common in Finistère (Alternative: Marec) is a former personal name or a nickname corresponding to the old Breton marchoc (= rider, knight). **Takes off tinfoil hat
I like to think that Ser Arthur is alive.
I wish he was, but Ned wouldn't lie. Unless it's to his wife...
Not sure about the half hand being Dayne. I don't think any of the KG died at the TOJ, their names "died", just as Bran, just like the Hound. Their identities died, and it isn't that hard to hide and be hidden. There was "4 good men" that got Viserys and Dany (if you go by she's the baby born on Dragonstone) out what happened to them? There is however a KG member out of those 3 who had a previously hand injury. Ser Gerold Hightower "the white bull". Mitra reluctantly participates in the sacrifice of a god named Soma, who often appears in the shape of a white bull or of the moon. Jon is often shown with Dawn and Sun symbolism and Mithra was a sun God. And that whole set up of Quran and Jon's time before they were caught seems very religiously sacrificial if looked at as steps taken.
As for that big sword fight between Mance/Rattleshirt and Jon, that stands out, that sword that Mance picks wouldn't be something he would have been taught at the wall, and he being a Wilding wouldn't care of kind of sword to another, very clearly shown by the way the recruits who were taught by Throne. But he beats Jon down, just as shown by Ser Berry destroying Mero with a stick. Jamie compares Rhaegar and Arthur (based on skill not on titles) so that leads back to the giant Mance =Rhaegar or Mance =Arthur. Both hold a lot of possibilities and obviously already glamor involved which is why if one of them are glamor as Mance he made a big stink about keeping that cloak with the red thread, they have to have something to person. 🤷♀️ and you have this whole kg and night watch symbolism with the others and kg to the wall hidden threwout 🤷♀️ makes some sense. There is also the possibility that Tormund is Hightower too, and if his she bear is actually Mage Mormont (there is a reason Jorah and Lynesse Hightower were pared up) there is a big set up between Hightower and Mormonts for some reason 🤷♀️
JRR Martin was like
"I didn't know that"
Stop this madness you are thinking too much
He died so as halfhand
Why wouldn't Dayne still have the sword
Its kinda wierd they fought when the mad king was already dead
Ser Arthur Dayne was stabbed in the back of the neck, had his throat cut, lost consciousness, woke up, then walked to Castle Black. That is a whole new level of tough!
Homie was built different. 😂
I prefer the theory that he's Mance Rayder. It's cooler and has some neat little points in the books that support it.
Qhorin was a great swordsman, but Dayne was the best. Mance, however, had skills that John had never seen...
Half hand from house Whent.
That’s why they mention Lady Whent is a friend of the watch.
Mance is Dayne and Tormund Hightower 👍🏻👍🏻
Wasn't Qhorin from the Iron Islands?
@@liliiris4424 never said but I would say he was too proper and clean shaven.
the only other Qhorin was Qhorin Volmark of the Ironborn. but since names are shared (Theon Stark, Theon Greyjoy) we don't know if the crow Qhorin is also from there. possibly tho!
As dead as hold the door.
plot twist, Arthur Dayne is Howland Reed 😂😂
Mance Rayder is Arthur Dayne. There's a hidden anagram. In the name Mance Rayder: DAYNE.
All you work, and GRRM already told us.
I have heard this theory before: likely from you.
ive mentioned it on stream and in a qhorin fighter video. i used to believe it 100%. i no longer believe it, which is why i made this video =))
Imagine if ser Arthur dayne is not dead and joins Jon and ends up fighting Selmy when Jon and Danny fight against each other 😂😂
Jeez. Why would Ser Arthur Dayne join the Night's Watch? They "swore a vow" which usually includes choosing death rather than forsake that vow. And then, why would Ned bother to return Dawn to Starfall? Just to simp with Ashara? The theory is nonsense! Sure, Qhorin and Dayne had similarities but Brienne is also large and a great swordsman.
So by this logic Sir Arthur ended up with Arthur hand.
whats an Arthur hand?? (is it from king arthur lore?)
@@bridge4 half a /Arthur
Yeah, but... even if Ned and Howland left Arthur alive. Arthur would never abandon his post. He was a true knight.
He would have died there.
Interesting I don't see the resemblance at all Plus corin is way too young to be dang but sounds great
Howland killed Arthur Dayne with the net and frog spear.
OR IS HE STILL ALAHHHHHH
Good theory, but naah. I don't buy it. Ser Arthur would never yield or abandon his duty.
Although I agree mostly with you, I'll point out Arthur more than likely broke his vows with Elia (making Rhaenys) and if Ned called him on that might accept taking the black. Don't think that happened, but there is at least one scenario where he would relent.